Nov
17

Yankees have contacted a dozen free agents

By

Via Joel Sherman, the Yankees have contacted the agents for about a dozen free agents, though we don’t know exactly which ones. Well, we know about Cliff Lee and Pedro Feliciano, then there’s Derek Jeter and Mariano Rivera. Does Andy Pettitte count? Probably. Sherman mentions that they’ve also checked in on Rafael Soriano, so that’s half the group right there. I suspect the others were just part of due diligence, backup plans and backup backup plans. It certainly doesn’t seem like any significant moves are coming, but remember, Brian Cashman is a ninja.

Check out the rest of Sherman’s column for some more dope on Soriano, who the team views as strictly as a backup plan should Rivera not re-sign for whatever reason. He adds that teams have called the Yanks about Brett Gardner, Curtis Granderson, and/or Nick Swisher, but right now they have no motivation to move them.

Categories : Asides, Hot Stove League
  • Jimmy McNulty

    Lets see..I’d guess in order spoken too

    Derek Jeter
    Mariano Rivera
    Andy Pettitte
    Cliff Lee
    Carl Crawford
    Scott Downs
    Jayson Werth
    Hiroki Krouda
    Pedro Feliciano
    Rafael Soriano
    Jorge De La Rosa
    Jake Westbrook

    That would be my guess.

    • Brooklyn Ed

      Kudro resigned with the Doders.

      • http://www.twitter.com/deanezag Zack

        Doesn’t mean they didn’t give him a call before

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Joe Pawlikowski

      High five for having de la Rosa far down on the list.

    • Thomas

      Cashman said a small player move was coming this week. Thus, he probably talked to a few low name players as well (e.g. Joe Beimel or Choate).

      • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike Axisa

        I’m thinking even smaller than that, like an emergency catcher on a MiL deal, Chad Moeller style.

        • Thomas

          Maybe they were talking about David Eckstein and Cashman meant that he was literally small.

        • Jimmy McNulty

          if they’re not talking their own free agents, then yeah probably a few of those types.

    • Thomas

      Also, I wouldn’t be surprised in Kearns, Wood, and Berkman were on the list just to tell them if they are or aren’t interested in resigning them (at least at this point).

    • king of fruitless hypotheticals

      no reason to talk to Downs–with that kind of money plus a draft pick…

      • Jimmy McNulty

        They did want a second lefty…Cashman seems to go for the best.

      • whozat

        You do your due diligence, though. What if the Blue Jays go insane and don’t offer arbitration? What if he just wants to live in the West Village more than anything else? You absolutely put the feeler out there, and it almost certainly doesn’t come to fruition, but all it costs is a phone call.

        • http://twitter.com/cephster Ross in Jersey

          This, just because they inquire about a player doesn’t mean they have any interest in signing them. It’s still Cashman’s job to investigate every option no matter how unlikely.

          • Jimmy McNulty

            Unless those options are named Jon Lester or Clay Buchholz.

  • Jimmy McNulty

    Speaking of Swisher, Gardner, and Granderson; I recall Sherman suggesting that if they lose out on Cliff Lee and need to deal one of the outfielders for a pitcher that they’d go after Justin Upton. On a cost note, I recall Nightengale suggesting that execs think that like a Nolasco and Morrison package is enough. Hope that isn’t too off topic, since this is about the Sherman piece.

    • http://www.twitter.com/deanezag Zack

      Judging by the Uggla trade, I assume Florida would offer Stanton, JJ & Hanley and think they stole Upton

      • Jimmy McNulty

        Maybe they want the extra relievers to bolster Zona’s bullpen.

  • Rob

    Hey, look at that! Cash-man knows how to spend money! How original! $250 million here we come!

    He better move quickly though. The middling starting pitchers are coming off the board. First Kuroda now Westbrook. What’s Sidney Ponson doing these days? Or Jeff Weaver! He must be good for another turn in pinstripes!

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike Axisa

      Can you stop repeating the same stuff over and over again in every thread please? It’s tiresome. Thanks in advance.

      • king of fruitless hypotheticals

        hey mike is it possible to have a plug in that allows us to filter comments from certain posters?

        although with that logic, wouldnt we technically be better off we if went ahead and took a less than WS caliber team and saved a bunch of money on short term bad fillers, still competed, still signed big guys to long term contracts and then pounced at the trade deadline or hoped for some maturation from the AAA level?

      • Rob

        Where have I ranted on this topic before? I mean Jeff Weaver just came to me! Surely Cashman still thinks there something there!

        • Lulu

          How about you find a Red Sox blog to post on. You’re obviously a “in the closet” Red Sox fan. Since our team. prospects. player development, budget, coaches, and front office suck so much. Go take your annoying posts elsewhere.

    • Klemy

      So, you’re just basically trolling all the threads today then right?

      • Jimmy McNulty

        We should get a break when he goes to lunch.

    • Jimmy McNulty

      At least he targets the best of the best with the money.

    • http://twitter.com/cephster Ross in Jersey

      Why do you even root for this team? Why don’t you go root for another team with another GM since they’re all so much better than Cashman?

      • http://www.riveraveblues.com Joe Pawlikowski

        Bad argument. Team loyalty trumps the current incarnation of the front office. See: Knicks.

        • http://twitter.com/cephster Ross in Jersey

          What’s wrong with Donny Walsh? Do people irrationally hate him too? Maybe you referring to how people feel about Dolan, but his counterpart would be Hal Steinbrenner, not Cashman.

          Regardless, this particular poster seems so obsessed with how bad Cashman regarding pitching development and drafting that it seems to trump any and all other feelings he has about the Yankees, hence my suggestion that he should just root for someone else.

          • Thomas

            Joe, may have been talking about Isiah Thomas and Layden. Most Knicks fans stayed faithful to the team despite the idiocy of the front office.

            • http://twitter.com/cephster Ross in Jersey

              I get the point, but there’s justified hatred (Isiah) and then there’s hating Cashman because he didn’t draft Clay Buchholz and Jon Lester.

              • Jimmy McNulty

                I hate Cashman because he didn’t draft Pujols. Clueless bald headed fuck.

              • Thomas

                Yeah, they are totally different. Isiah’s hatred is totally justified, most of the Cashman hate is not, especially with respect to the draft (of course, the hate for Cashman passing on Hellickson is more than justified).

                • http://twitter.com/cephster Ross in Jersey

                  Hellickson was drafted in the 4th round. Cashman and every other GM passed on him. More than once, in fact. Just saying.

                  • Thomas

                    I was joking. Sorry if that didn’t come across.

                    • http://twitter.com/cephster Ross in Jersey

                      Sorry, sarcasm detector has been broken by today’s posters :P

                    • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

                      /Bret’d

                      Rob sounds a lot like Bret, actually. Except Bret wasn’t a Yankee fan.

              • Rob

                You don’t get it. It’s not about Lester and Buchholz. Hughes and Joba have the same talent, and it’s being utterly wasted in the execution.

                I think this nonsense we’re hearing about how they’re hiring a pitching coach is related. Cashman thinks he’s smarter than pitching coaches with proven records. But he makes a big show about how he’s sending them home with homework. Wow! So advanced!

                Hey jackass, how about you don’t sign and trade for slop and then there’s room to actually develop the pitching. I mean, I know you tried it in one season out of 13, but don’t you think there were other factors at play?

                • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike Axisa

                  Okay, fine. You made your point ad nauseum today and yesterday. We got it already. Move on to a different topic please, you’re adding nothing to conversation and are just hijacking threads at this point.

                  • http://www.twitter.com/astrophunq Dax J.

                    Hey Mike, at this point, can’t you guys just ban him? I mean, I understand that every reader has an opinion, but this guy just repeats the same thing over and over.

                  • Rob

                    You bet. I have too much respect for you guys to not agree.

                    Perhaps this flare up has inspired two posts:
                    1. Hughes’ missing “development”. 2007 to 2010 is the easy comparison. But apart from a hot April last year, his season was middling. At some point YFs need to see the facts as they are not as they wish them to be.

                    2. Cashman’s record. For all the spilled keys regarding Girardi, we really need to look deeply as Cashman’s many, many failures. 13 years is an eternity in baseball, and while Cashman likes to say they’re now developing pitchers, the plain fact is he continues to spend, unwisely, when given the choice.

                    If I can add research support to either post, let me know. That’s it from me. Thanks for all you Big Three do here.

                    • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

                      Well, since you’re being rational.

                      1. I don’t think anyone is yelling about how Hughes’ year was an unqualified success and he was totally brilliant. However, he was a 24-year-old starting in the ALE for the first full year. Also, he got DESTROYED by the Blue Jays (who were a fastball-hitting team). Was I always thrilled with what I saw from Hughes? No. Was I happy with his year, overall, and saw some things I really liked? Yep. And don’t say “Buchholz put it together this year” because Buchholz is 2.5 years older than Hughes. That’s a lot, in baseball terms.

                      2. Yeah, Cashman’s made mistakes. No one’s pretending he hasn’t. Thing is, when you try to stay competitive every year, you have to fill holes. Until recently, the farm was a mess (which you can probably blame him for at least somewhat). There were no prospects along the lines of Joba (who I agree they fucked up) and Hughes, or even like IPK, to come up and fill the holes/let develop. So he had to turn to the free agent/trade market.

                      Some of these moves worked out. Some of them didn’t. Most of them were justifiable. The Randy Johnson trade got us probably the best pitcher in baseball at the time. Carl Pavano probably got too many years, but he was a young pitcher, no one saw all those injuries coming, and he turned down less money from the Red Sox just to come here. Heck, even in the late 1990s, after years of sucking (and therefore having better draft picks, presumably), we had one homegrown starter in the rotation, and he was just league-average in 1998 and 1999, after being a borderline ace in 1996 and an actual ace in 1997. NOT REGRESSION!

                      Anyway, that’s what I have to say. Isn’t this better than being a jerk? I think so.

                    • Rob

                      1. The “first full year” bit is so lame. His age is even lamer. The kid came up in 2007 and pitched identically. He hasn’t “developed” one bit in the intervening time. He’s the same pitcher he always was. Except now he gives up homers in bunches.

                      2. Cashman’s record on pitching is so clear he even called himself out…in 2007. So he goes into 2008 with a different “philosophy”. That lasted all of one season. 2009 he blows the bank on a very overpriced guy in Burnett – something he said exactly he wouldn’t do. Then for 2010, when he has another chance to develop the pitching he drops another $10 million on Vazquez. It was easy to shrug that move at the time coming off a title, but looking back it was another nail in the coffin of the *new* philosophy. Instead, we get a stupid ST competition and CHoP, Mitre, and Gaudin in the pen.

                      Randy Johnson was not the best pitcher in baseball at the time. Besides, he was going on 41. It didn’t take a genius to figure out was was going to happen. Pavano was an awful, awful signing and anyone paying attention at the time knew it clearly.

                      Isn’t that better than being a willful ignoramus?

                • Jimmy McNulty

                  Sign and trade for slop? What the fuck are you talking about? Cashman took full control of the organization in 2005, since then he’s done a fairly good job of getting pitchers…hell in 2008 he gave The Big 3 all starting rotation spots. Kennedy was hurt in 2009, both Hughes and Joba had a chance to start in 2009 and an opportunity presented itself to upgrade the team at the cost of Kennedy a year ago and Cashman took the chance.

                  • Rob

                    Vazquez and Burnett say hello. But thanks for paying attention.

                    • Jimmy McNulty

                      He acquired Vazquez for Melky and a lottery ticket. Boone’s Farm for Dunn was a lateral move at the time. Look at Vazquez’s 2009 and AJ’s career up until 2009. Overrated perhaps, but it’s not like he signed Daisuke Matsuzaka to block him or anything.

                    • Rob

                      Burnett was a terrible signing at the time it was made. At this point I wish his elbow would fall off.

                      Vazquez was a failure once in pinstripes. Joba or Nova or Phelps could have easily given the same for $9million less. Hell, Ross Ohlendorf could have.

                • http://twitter.com/cephster Ross in Jersey

                  How do you know Joba has the same talent as Hughes? You don’t think there’s a possibility that Joba isn’t as good as his peripherals suggest, possibly because of his shoulder injury?

                  I have no idea what your point is with the pitching coaches.. they haven’t even hired anyone yet. How does that indicate Cashman “thinks he’s smarter” than anyone? You don’t know why he dismissed Eiland and neither do I, acting like you do is pure bullshit.

                  You’re so all over the place I don’t even know what your point is. That the Yankees don’t develop pitchers? That Cashman is horrible at evaluating pitching?

              • JobaWockeeZ

                Never was the argument.

                • http://twitter.com/cephster Ross in Jersey

                  That’s exactly what he said earlier. The Red Sox drafted better with the same slots as the Yankees, blah blah blah.

                  • Rob

                    In response to the claim that the Yankees can’t draft quality at their slots…

        • Rob

          This. I’ve loved the Yankees since before Cashman was an intern. And for the the nonsense we hear about Girardi, not enough is said about all of the mistakes that Cashman has made. They far outweigh the decent moves.

          • http://twitter.com/cephster Ross in Jersey

            Then why don’t you try presenting things in a rational manner instead of throwing out insults at Cashman and anyone who disagrees with you? Or how about commenting on anything besides the failings of Hughes/Joba and anyone Cashman ever signed who didn’t turn into an ace? It would lend a bit more to your credibility.

          • http://www.twitter.com/astrophunq Dax J.

            O:S

          • Avi

            Rob, I TOTALLY agree with you on Cashman. Just tone it down a notch.

      • Klemy

        Because they don’t have enough money to spend to use his same statements over and over.

    • Rick in Boston

      Can we just O:S him and stop responding? He’s like mryankee with better grammar.

      • JobaWockeeZ

        You’re asking for the impossible.

        • http://www.twitter.com/astrophunq Dax J.

          Oh no. It’s doable. They did it yesterday, and it was glorious. I’m up for the O:S today.

    • steve (different one)

      Dude, you are a f*@king bore

      • Rob (same one)

        And you have nothing original to say.

  • theyankeewarrior

    I apologize in advance, but I love me some Bill Hall. Especially when working with Longy for a full season.

    • Rick in Boston

      My only problem with Hall is that he’s going to be a very expensive utility guy. I’d rather roll with Nunez next year in that role, save some money, and spend it on Lee.

      • http://www.twitter.com/deanezag Zack

        Yeah, he’s the classic go to KC/WAS/BAL for 1yr/5m or 2yr/7m and get 400-500 ABs guaranteed

        • http://mystiqueandaura.com Steve H

          Yeah. If it’s a 1 year deal he becomes a trade candidate midseason in the Hinske, Hairston mold, but I doubt he signs with a contender to be on the bench.

  • Mike

    “but remember Cashman is a ninja”.

    Yeah, a ninja with rusted shurikens, he has made bad trade after bad trade, this year alone he said: AJAX is not ready for the majors, and the guy did better than Granderson most of the season (we can’t assume what he could have done in the playoffs if given the opportunity).

    Another ninja trade: Javier Vázquez.

    Another ninja move: not resigning Matsui for the DH, the NYY were desperate and ended up trading for Berkman, so, in the end the DH ended up costing them money (Thames, Winn), a pitcher (in exchange for Berkman), 2 millions (to declare Berkman a free agent), instead of signing either Damon or Matsui (they suffered all year long with their 1st, 2nd and 3rd bats).

    What a Ninja he is.

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike Axisa

      Would you have been happy with a starting outfield of Jackson, Gardner, Swisher and a rotation with Joba and Hughes as the 4-5 on Opening Day last year?

      • Rob

        Many in the fanbase wouldn’t have been pleased, but it could have been with an eye toward this off-season or a mid-season move.

        That also means that IPK would have been in AAA.

        Still, I was happy with the Granderson trade. My problems are elsewhere…

        • http://www.twitter.com/deanezag Zack

          Eye towards this off-season, which means give up on 2010 after winning the WS in 2009? Yet you people criticize Cashman.

          • Rob

            How is that giving up on 2010? Hughes and Joba wouldn’t have been.

            As for the OF, I suppose people could have made a stink. But that where a GM says he believes in his players. If not, corner OFs are always available.

            I was happy with the Granderson trade. Still, it does look like value lost.

            • http://www.twitter.com/deanezag Zack

              CC-AJ-Andy-Joba-Hughes to start the season? Seriously?

              Joba was bad in the second half and Hughes was in the bullpen. Having that rotation, plus an OF of 2 light hitters(one a rookie) after winning the WS is a joke.

              • http://www.twitter.com/deanezag Zack

                The year before Joba was bad in the second half and Hughes was in the bullpen.

    • http://twitter.com/cephster Ross in Jersey

      Wow, you’re so original. Give this man his own column.

    • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

      First Name Only Male Handle Rule!

      (Needless to say this goes for Rob too. You guys are making a really awesome site practically unreadable. Good job.)

      • Rob

        I’m sorry the reality I see ruins your view of fantasyland.

        • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

          Yep, see, this is what I mean. I believe I said yesterday you had a few decent points, but then you ruined it by taking over every thread with batshit insane unrelated points, like criticizing Hughes for not being Steve Carlton, and constantly arguing with people.

          • Rob

            Yeah, I criticized Hughes for not being Carlton. Nice job with the reading comprehension.

            What did I say that was “batshit insane”? I mean, if I’m the one ruining this great place for you, it shouldn’t be too hard to point to something I said specifically rather than twisting something out of context.

            Moreover, arguments are good if you’re interested in how things are, not how you wish them to be. If you’re only interested in the latter, then yup I’m going to step on your toes. My apologies in advance…

            • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

              Yeah, I criticized Hughes for not being Carlton. Nice job with the reading comprehension.
              You criticized Hughes for not having Steve Carlton’s numbers at 24. When people were like “wut?” you went back and clarified. FTL.

              What did I say that was “batshit insane”? I mean, if I’m the one ruining this great place for you, it shouldn’t be too hard to point to something I said specifically rather than twisting something out of context.
              Where do you want me to start? You’re all over the place, like someone said. I’m not really sure what your argument is. Cashman sucks because… he’s not good at drafting? He’s not good at developing starters? He’s not good at buying good free agent starters/in the trade market? I mean, you say Joba should’ve gotten more chances and got jerked around (I agree) but then you say he has no idea how to develop pitchers. You criticized Cashman for supposedly maybe having interest in De La Rosa then got all pissy he didn’t get Andrew Miller.

              If you’re interested in a discussion, I responded to you here:
              http://riveraveblues.com/2010/.....nt-1320751

              • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

                Errr, extremely poorly worded on my part.

                I mean, you say Joba should’ve gotten more chances and got jerked around (I agree) but then you say he has no idea how to develop pitchers

                I mean, you say Joba should’ve gotten more chances and got jerked around (I agree), so you say he has no idea how to develop pitchers. Fine. But then you argue about how we have to bring up the farm, only then you argue that any success certain starters from the farm had (Hughes, Wang) wasn’t really success at all.

                • Rob

                  Wang’s was a fluke. If you want to call Hughes a success because he’s a league average starter after four seasons, go nuts. You won’t get me on that bandwagon.

                  As for Joba, the record is clear. They rushed him to the majors, blew through his option years, and then buried him when he didn’t pitch well. That’s very far from developing a pitcher.

                  • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

                    You keep saying Wang was a fluke and I don’t get why. Yeah, he didn’t have a good K-rate but he was a sinkerballer, and his ERA, FIP, and xFIP are pretty similar (his career FIP is lower and his career xFIP is just .06 higher). Not a fluke.

                    Don’t you see contradiction between insisting the Yankees develop prospects at all costs then basically writing off Hughes at 24 as just a league average starter? That’s basically what I don’t get. I agree, Joba was rushed and messed up, and the team needed a lot more patience than they did with him, as far as I can tell. But then you can’t close the book on Hughes’ career and write him off as just a league-average starter and “Home Run Hughes,” like you seem to be doing repeatedly.

                    • Rob

                      He was a fluke because his “success” was completely unsustainable even for a ground baller. It was unprecedented in the history of the game. Guys who strike out so few are not long in the tooth. There was a lot of good work done on the topic at the time. Wang was a good shoe in Blackjack, nothing more.

                      Who has “written off” Hughes. I haven’t. I’ve said he’s valuable as a cheap league average starter. But I also see a pitcher that is no different than the one that first came up. Between that lack of development and his 2010, I don’t see much to get excited about. As a #5, he’s fine. But the Yankees aren’t counting on him there.

                      Don’t distort what I’ve said. Once Hughes shows a clear step forward, I’ll change my mind. Throwing more innings and getting worse is not the way to do it. Apart from the first six weeks, his year was *below* average.

              • Rob

                Read. The. Context. It wasn’t hard to figure out for Carlton.

                Except none of that meets your description of “batshit insane”. In fact, I’ve clearly laid out the facts behind those thoughts. The Yankees haven’t developed one above average pitcher in Cashman’s 3 years. And I’m done making that very clear case.

                I mean, you say Joba should’ve gotten more chances and got jerked around (I agree) but then you say he has no idea how to develop pitchers.

                Seriously, you see a contradiction in that sentence? Really?

                Miller is very different from De La Rosa. If you think there’s any relationship there, you must be batshit insane.

          • yanks

            I agree bex. No manager in the history of the game has been perfect in the sense that every decision made (collectively/singularly) was pivotal in winning a championship. So these accusations seem baseless, we did win the most number of WS titles since 1995.

        • Shaun

          Your sense of reality and what is actually reality is like night and day.

          Your sense of reality: Yankees doing nothing but drafting terrible players, and trading good ones away.

          Actual Reality: The yankees have drafted very talented but very raw players that need time to refine themselves. Some have been slowed by injury but are now making up for loss time quite well, others were busts. (That’s baseball) Also even though mistakes were made with Joba, those same mistakes aren’t being repeated and the system arms are all the better for it.

          • Rob

            Hmmmm that doesn’t sound like anything I said. Care to cite me?

            As for time, Cashman has had 13 years. Yeah, yeah, everyone wants to say he wasn’t *really* in control. Well, his record in the pitching department is no better these last few years. And Pavano was clearly his guy.

            those same mistakes aren’t being repeated

            Where is the evidence to support that claim?

            • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike Axisa

              Okay, dude we got it already. You have to stop saying the same thing over and over and over and over again in each thread, it’s ruining everyone’s enjoyment and taking away from the quality of the site. If you disagree with something, fine, that’s great. But once is enough.

              If you can’t refrain from saying the same thing in everything thread, we’re just going to ban you. It’s in violation of our commenting guidelines, which are certainly not asking you to walk on water.

              http://riveraveblues.com/about.....uidelines/

              • Rob

                How can I respond to people directly criticizing me while completely distorting what I’ve said?

            • Shaun

              13 years? The yankees have only started going with the draft smart route for 5yrs. Hughes, Joba, and Kennedy were the first crop. Brackman, Banuelos, Betances, Warren, Phelps, Stoneburner are the new group. (In case you didn’t know everyone but Brackman were 18 or younger when drafted)

              You keep bitching that the yankees can’t grow arms, and your dismissing Hughes after one full season and with a 4.19 era. You know who else had that in their first full season of starts?

              Sabathia, King Felix, David Price, Lee, Halliday, Greinke, Lincecum, Lackey, Hamels, Cain, and Jimenez just to name a few. Most pitchers in their first full season has an era of at least four IT HAPPENS! Get that through that thick skull of yours instead of crying like you have the past 3 days.

              PS

              If everyone on this site keeps saying your wrong and is providing evidence that proves it…..chances are your the one who’s in the wrong.

              • Rob

                Know who else? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

                Apart from the first six weeks, Hughes had a *poor* 2010. You haven’t provided any evidence to the contrary. Nor to the claim that he’s a better pitcher than he was in 2007. He basically fooled a bunch of folks the first month, then limped along.

                Yup, a lot of folks are still shining his nutsack. The “first full season” is exactly the type of BS I’m railing against. It’s the lamest possible claim with no predictive utility. Of course, it’s false too. He had 200 ML innings in his arm going into the season. And after only 40 innings he started to suck. A rookie he wasn’t.

                You’re better than that, Shaun.

                • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike Axisa

                  This is the exact same fucking conversation you had yesterday, and it’s completely irrelevant to the topic of the post. That’s it, I asked you nicely before, but you kept on going.

    • rbizzler

      I love that your rock solid argument for A-Jax was that he was better than Grandy for most of the season.

      Do you happen to be a beat writer for the Pirates by any chance?