Dec
17

Food For Thought: Derek Jeter

By

One’s a surefire first ballot Hall of Famer, the other has yet to receive more than 22.4% of the vote in his nine years on the ballot. It’ll be interesting to see where Jeter’s line heads in 2011 and beyond.

(related graphs)

Categories : Players
  • Josh

    but the intangibles!!11!!1!

  • Plank

    Hopefully people look at this and realize how good Trammell was and not that Jeter isn’t as good as thought. Can you show the graph with Barry Larkin in there too?

  • Beamish

    Rings still count for votes but are never reflected in WAR.

    • Mister Delaware

      And still no one takes my Ramiro Mendoza for the Hall of Fame argument seriously.

      • Slugger27

        robert horry is 1st ballot

      • jim p

        El Bruho will wait five years, then cast a spell. Don’t worry.

  • Mister Delaware

    There are so many middle infielders who’ve gotten the HoF shaft in favor of big power corners. Trammell & Whitaker, Alomar, Grich, Larkin …

    • Slugger27

      is larkin eligible yet? did he not get voted? if so, thats shameful

      not that i pay attn to HOF voting anymore, hence me not knowing

      • YankeesJunkie

        He retired after 2004 so I think so and his numbers from 88-99 was pretty damn impressive for a short stop.

      • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

        Larkin was eligible for the first time last year. Didn’t get in, got like 50% of the vote. He really should be in there.

        • steve (different one)

          if he got 50% of the vote on his first ballot, he’ll get in

          • Slugger27

            /sadbuttrue’d

        • Stacoe44702

          I had him going in on the 1st ballot.

    • CP

      Alomar and Larkin have each only been on the ballot once, and will easily get in the HOF at some point (probably this year for Alomar), so it’s somewhat hard to say they’ve gotten the shaft.

      • Plank

        I don’t care about the HOF but they are gonna have a serious logjam of HOF-worthy players in the next few years. Voters can only vote for 10 players and as it stands now, there are about that many HOF worthy players with more becoming eligible every year.

      • Mister Delaware

        It might not be the shaft since it works out in the end, but its really f’ing stupid. Was Alomar’s 2010 good enough to put him over the top or something? Stupid voters and stupid me for always getting worked up about it.

        • Mister Delaware

          (Viva Dick Allen)

        • CP

          The idea that there is special significance to “first ballot hall of famers” bothers me, but not the idea that people change their votes. Every year voters should take a fresh look at the candidates. New statistics are being developed and more time has passed to better judge each era (which is particularly important with the issue of steroids). Most voters aren’t doing this, but they do pay attention to the discussions and take another look at the players. They also gain and lose voters. Put it all together, and there’s good reason to not have just one try to get it, and also justification for changing your votes.

          • Mister Delaware

            Or, like Bill Conlin, they say they’ll vote for a player (Raines) if everyone else does. Keepers of the gate.

  • king of fruitless hypotheticals

    ewwww…here’s to hoping the similarities are ending…

  • nathan

    Well, he played for NY Yankees. Thats all that counts for most voting members.

    I see this more as one is way over-rated and one is very underrated.

    • Slugger27

      exactly… which is why he wrote this:

      One’s a surefire first ballot Hall of Famer, the other has yet to receive more than 22.4% of the vote in his nine years on the ballot.

  • http://mystiqueandaura.com Steve H

    The double play combo of Trammell and Whitaker are both Hall of Famers, yet somehow neither are in. Crazy.

    If you asked any manager or GM in the 80′s who they’d rather have, Ozzie or Trammell would win the vast majority of votes. He should have learned how to backflip.

  • http://mystiqueandaura.com Steve H

    Trammell at 35: 138 OPS+
    Trammell at 36: 84 OPS+
    Trammell 36-38: 70 OPS+

    Jeter at 35: 125 OPS+
    Jeter at 36: 90 OPS+

    Scary.

    • http://www.facebook.com/cecala Joseph Cecala

      Yikes

    • CP

      Trammel from 31-34: 105 OPS+
      Jeter from 31-34: 120 OPS+

      Not so scary.

    • Mister Delaware

      Trammell’s Eye Calmness+ age 32-36: 113
      Jeter’s Eye Calmness+ age 32-36: ?

      (Crosses fingers the symbol shows up)

      • Mister Delaware

        Son of a bitch. Tried to use the infinity sign.

        • JCK

          ??

          • JCK

            Damn… what font are they using here that doesn’t support that? Bah.

    • mike c

      trammell never played a full season after the age of 32… not a good comparison

  • Scooby

    Jeter bags beautiful women. Trammel?

    • Mister Delaware

      Jeter could have bagged him too if he wanted. You know he’s got an edge, baby.

      • Guest

        + 1

  • Plank

    Just for fun, here is Jeter’s WAR by year with Arod and Garciaparra.

    http://www.fangraphs.com/graph.....playerid5=

    • king of fruitless hypotheticals

      Damn. Arod is fantastic. So much better than Jeter its unreal…can you imagine what it took to get Arod to move to 3rd? Yeah yeah a bajillion dollars…but he was getting a bajillion dollars anyway.

      Wow. Unreal.

      • Plank

        But Jeter is the consummate professional that would do anything to help the team win and Arod only cares about his own numbers. I don’t get it.

        IIRC, Arod moved over from SS one HR away from the all-time record. Never complained about it once.

        • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

          Not really sure why everything written about Jeter has to turn into swipes at Jeter. Really now.

          • Plank

            I’m not swiping at Jeter. He’s one of the best SS ever.

            There is no doubt in my mind that the 2004 and 2005 Yankees would have been better with Arod at short. I don’t know if it was his decision or not, but he never came out and offered to do what was best for the club.

            I can realistically look at Jeter’s pluses and minuses. I’m sorry if it bothers you.

          • murakami

            Isn’t it clear? None of these people ever gets laid by hot chicks, and on the other side of it, they’re latent and desire both Jeter and Alex. Elementary Watson.

            • Plank

              What’s with the personal attacks?

  • Andy

    I’m not saying that playoff performance and WS rings shouldn’t couldn’t for anything, but it’s ridiculous that the process isn’t a little more objective. The Hall of Fame should be an individual accomplishment rather than a measure of the quality of teams you were on. Jeter is a lock and yet Trammell can’t even get in? Wow, I love the Yankee edge as much as anyone but that’s just ridiculous (no edge pun intended).

    • Dave

      Jeter is a lock because of his hit-total, let’s be honest. The HOF voters would find a reason not to vote for him if he ended with 2,400 hits. But since he’ll have 3,500+, it’s a moot point. 5 rings this, 5 rings that (and i love that he has the rings), but O’Neill, Bernie & Coney aren’t getting into the Hall. Jeter is. 3,000 does it – with or without the rings.

  • Wil Nieves #1 Fan

    You heard it here first, Alan Trammel is better than Derek Jeter.

    • Mister Delaware

      Here = Detroit, Boston, Queens and I imagine several sabermetric communities

      First = Within the last 10+ years

      • Dave

        +1 delaware

  • brian g

    wow, not neccessarily the graph but the sentiment overall. what is up with the jeter backlash? i guess he was impenetrable beforehand but a bad season and his age have made him a target for yankees fans now too. geeeez,…of all people! we’ve seen this dude play his whole career with our favorite team and do everything we ever could have dreamed a home grown player would do and now we are pretty quick to point out his flaws as he ages and go “maybe he isn’t so great afterall”. this isn’t anything more than realistic on one hand, he is our shortstop, we watch him everyday therefore see his flaws as as he ages an we must not ignore them. on the otherhand, he is already playing way better than 9 out of 10 shortops his age. i’m happy to still be able to watch him and i’m excited we are now pretty certain to be seeing him play out his career with the yankees. would anyone seriously rather have bartlett or scutaro? jeter for me everyday, everytime over any shortstop in history. i mean it. no disrespect to anyone else……

    • http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

      “maybe he isn’t so great afterall”

      No one here seems to be saying that. The sentiment is, seemingly, “Wow, Trammell was much better than we remember.”

    • mike c

      haters gonna hate
      the most laughable reason i’ve heard for the jeter bashing was “he’s a dick because he was mean to a-rod” … what a joke

      • http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

        This isn’t necessarily directed at you, Mike C, so I apologize if it seems like I’m singling you (or Brian G) out:

        How come every comment about Jeter that isn’t glowing with praise is considered hate? Why can’t we objectively talk about him?

        • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

          No one’s saying that, but since I said something similar up above: I feel like whenever A-Rod gets brought up, people have to compare him to Jeter, and it always ends up with people taking, well, outright swipes at Jeter. No shit A-Rod’s a better player, by a lot, but then people tend to exaggerate what they view as Jeter’s personality flaws (which is ridiculous because I’m pretty sure none of us know the guy).

          Oh, and I saw a lot of “he’s just a slap-hitting poor defensive SS who GIDPs a lot, was a terrible captain, and only led us to one championship over the past ten years” which is ridiculous. Not necessarily here, just other places.

          JMO.

          • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

            Also, someone said this on an Open Thread, don’t remember exactly who and I don’t wanna misquote anyone: right now, Yankee fans like Jesus Montero a lot more than Derek Jeter. And quite frankly I think that’s kinda messed up, as much as I think the Jesus is awesome. That’s all.

            • http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

              Well that’s just a lot of people subscribing to Pascal’s Wager. If you don’t like Jesus a lot, you may end up in a bad place.

          • http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

            I feel like whenever A-Rod gets brought up, people have to compare him to Jeter, and it always ends up with people taking, well, outright swipes at Jeter.

            That’s fair enough; but, simultaneously, that comparison is usually made to belittle A-Rod and look on him negatively as the “Anti-Jeter.”

            JMO

            When I want your opinion, I’ll give it to you! RAWR!

            • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com bexarama

              Oh agreed. Heck, I like A-Rod a lot more than I like Jeter; weirdly enough, I just have more of a connection to Alex. Not sure what that says about me. o_O I just don’t see why we have to take it the other way, especially so far. Take that whole dumb “who’s the bigger dick?” argument we had a while back on here.

              FTR I didn’t think the comparison of Jeter to Trammell was in any way an insult. They’re both really good players. Some of the comments in here rubbed me the wrong way, though. That’s all.

              • OldYanksFan

                We all know and have watched Derek Jeter. His stats page speaks for itself. He has always been a motivated, poised young man. He seems to have been an exceptional person, and made a strong impression on those who worked with him.

                But between his being a Yankee, the Dynasty he was a part of, his good looks, self assurance, grace on camera, and other positive characteristics, somehow the entire MSM annointed him a modern day legend, and thus was born ‘the Myth’.

                If Jeter was brought up and played in Detroit, he would be Alan Trammel. A quality player, ggod person and hard worker. He would be known as a great player and great guy.

                But instead he is a myth. I never got it. Murcer was iconic as Mantle’s ‘replacement’, Munson was as hard nosed as it gets, and elevated a shitty team, Mattingly was Donnie Baseball. But Jeter, with lesser overall numbers then many current players, somehow was bestowed this Godlike status, that I thought was way overblown.

                So, as I know with myself, some of the ‘Jeter anger’ may be a bit of pushback against him being so highly and universally elevated.

                I’m not sure what Jeter has actually done as ‘the Captain’. Personally, I thought Mo or Po was better suited for the position. I’m not sure what the intangibles are… if we’re not talking about selling jerseys. He’s clean and works hard, but so do literally hundreds of other players.

                While ARod has been the MLB media’s whipping boy, Jeter has been the Golden God. And yet I feel ARod has shown more character as a Yankee then Jeter has.

                Yet ARod is still generally considered a schmuck and Jeter is still untouchable. So maybe the blowback is just a natural counter-reaction to his unnaturally elevated position.

                And to boot, his Jeterness has cost the Yankees about $30m we could use for other players.

                I have always appreciated Jeter, but never loved him (maybe because I don’t have a ponytail?)
                (Wait… actually I do have a ponytail…. anyway)
                I have found him too ‘perfect’, ploished and somewhat aloof. I think his own issues with ARod (when ARod joined the Yankees) revealed some of Jeter’s flaws.

                So last year’s bad year, along with the contract negotiations, may have just been the straw that broke the camels back for those folks who have the same feelings I do.

                • Plank

                  why do you hate jetes????? this is a yankee site!!!! you cant do that here!!!1!11!!!

                  /jokingtohighlightlevel-headednessofpost’d

        • mike c

          i get your point, but what else is there to say about jeter at the moment? after all the crap after last year and the signing, it’s just such a boring conversation already. the dude’s been straight money every season, he had a down year… we all know that. i think a lot of the stathead crowd goes too far in their interest in “fairness.” he’s been better than any other SS posted in this thread except for a-rod. i’m just saying let’s get a little optimism going already… i think he’ll hit 300 next year, what about you?

          • http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

            Again, I don’t think this thread (through my surface level reading) has had an anti-Jeter tenor; rather, it’s been pro-Trammell, with people realizing that he was pretty damn good.

            • mike c

              no doubt he was good, definitely underrated. in fact he should have won MVP in 1987 for the year he had… .343/.402/.551 & 28 HR
              but jeter’s still better

  • steve (different one)

    how do they calculate the defensive portion of WAR for players who predate the UZR era?

    they didn’t have play by play data back then, right? so why should we consider WAR valid for old timey players? serious question, not snark.

    • mike c

      even if they had play by play data back then it wouldn’t be as accurate… no baseball on tv, computers, or money to spend analyzing sports. that’s just the way it is
      /bruce hornsby

    • Slugger27

      steve, im not 100% on this, but b-ref uses sean smith’s total zone rating to calculate defense, and they use that stat in their version of WAR

      http://www.baseball-reference......zone.shtml

      the 1st paragraph explains briefly how they do it, and thats what they use for the old time players

      (disclaimer: again, im not 100% on this, but pretty sure)

  • hawkins44

    Seriously.. I get WAR… makes sense to me, but to suggest that Trammell can carry Jete’s jock strap is blasphemy….. look at the numbers

    Hits HR SB OPS OBA
    Jeter 2926 234 323 .837 .385
    Trammell 2365 185 236 .767 .352

    I always thought trammell was better than people thought so I get that feedback… but hof’er….no chance (22% of the vote seems about right)… in Jeter’s class statistically, ahh not even close. Give Jeter 3 more years and watch him destroy My. Tiger….

    Really?

    • Pat D

      Jeter has played in a more offensively-favorable era than Trammell did. This is partially evident by the difference in their OPS+ being 119 for Jeter to 110 to Trammell. Not a huge difference when compared with the 70 point difference in their OPS numbers.

      I’m not saying Trammell was better. I’d still say Jeter was a better player throughout his career. But Trammell might very well have been one of the 10 best shortstops of all time. And that should have made him a HOF player.

  • LGY

    …..WUT

  • brian g

    i agree….i wasn’t getting so much “jeter stinks” from this thread but seriously, the jeter backlash is through the roof everywhere we look. i won’t lie. i didn’t want them to pay jeter the inflated salary. i think he should get what he deserves and become who he will become, satistically. half of me was excited about seeing what nunez could be all about it..i definitely had the feeling of “maybe jeet’s time came and went and we saw it”. that being said, i fully expect this dude to bat three hundred again, win another DESERVED gold glove (screw stats…very few errors, some rad jump throws, he’s thinking out there..give him the love and the gold glove!), and lead the yanks….

    2012 and 2013..who knows?????? the one thing for sure is that i will always be excited for the fact that i and we got to see his whole career. he is and was our boy!….trammel was cool and i am a huge supporter but screw WAR, jeter is my shortsop. he is my anchor. if i pick a team i will always take jeter in his prime as my first pick.
    the intangibles and the talent equal gloriousness!!!!!!!!

    • Plank

      Yikes. I’m pretty sure this is satire, but I’ll bite.

      I think a lot of the Jeter ‘backlash’ is to stuff like this.

      • brian g

        like what?????? do tell.

        • Plank

          No thanks.

          You’re right. Rad jump throws are way more important than anything else on the field. Saying otherwise is disrespecting the god we call Jeter.

          • hawkins44

            fair points

    • Stacoe44702

      Will the sports writers and/or Yankee management view Jeter differently, in light of his protracted–and sometimes contentious–recent contract negotiations? He came off a little whinny and self-centered. Hardly above the so-called fray.

      This guy will never go quietly, although he has to know that the day will eventually come when their will be a bone-fide replacement at SS. What happens when another player faces a salary cut-back or is ask to move aside for the betterment of the team (Posada, maybe)? What does the team captain say? What can he say? For a player who has always demostrated an air of ‘class’, it was woefully missing in his particular case.

      He was angry at Management because of Cashman’s suggestion that he (Jeter) seek a better deal if he truly felt that such a possibility existed. Jeter, your Agent initially broach the ideal–as a bargaining threat, no doubt. You should have expressed your alleged anger towards him!

  • Pat D

    This graph demonstrates a few things.

    First and foremost, it shows how Alan Trammell has been very underrated. Second, it shows how WAR is a stat that simply has not yet caught on with most people, and has a long way to go before it does.

    Last, it does demonstrate that we’re probably expecting too much of Jeter to play the way he did in ’09 again next year. But I think we all knew he wasn’t going to. We just have to hope his decline isn’t rather sudden and absolute the way it has been for players like Trammell, Alomar, Dale Murphy, etc.

  • Stacoe44702

    Failure of both Larkin and Alomar succeeding on the 1st ballot somehow suggests that Jeter’s first attempt will also lead to failure ….unless a few more old-timers fall by the wayside (sadly) and are replaced by younger voters.Hopefully, that will not happen.