Open Thread: “It was there, and it was gone”


Zack Greinke is down with F-I-P. (AP Photo/Charlie Neibergall)

Yahoo’s Jeff Passan profiled Voros McCracken today, the godfather of DIPS theory (defense independent pitching stats, like FIP). McCracken is quite literally a genius, scoring 155 on a second grade IQ test that sent him directly to fourth grade and soon enough gifted classes, but these days he’s a bit of a tortured soul. He has little to show for his million dollar DIPS idea beyond a wristwatch, and he’s battled both depression and bipolar disorder. It’s a fantastic read and well worth your time, so give it a click.

Once you’ve done that, use this as your open thread for the night. The only local sports action tonight is the Rangers and Islanders, who are running out the clock before the All Star break.

Categories : Open Thread


  1. John says:

    Obama’s State of the Union or MLB’s Top 50 Prospects?

  2. T-Dubs says:

    Shameless self promotion: Check out my new graphic. It was intended to go on T-Shirts but in light of the recent news, it was decided to scrap the idea. Hope you like!


    And for, perhaps, the last time: Free Joba.

  3. Bryan L says:

    Who’s gonna be watching the All Star fantasy draft?

  4. Granderslam says:

    So how about the Wandy extension? Do you think it makes it more likely or less likely he gets traded?

  5. Total Dominication says:

    So, Napoli to Texas.

    • Engelbert says:

      Toronto is going to FSU soon, and its about time.

    • Greg says:

      As I have said, the Angels have been toyed around this offseason.

      Our offseason would be the worst if it weren’t for the Angels

    • Accent Shallow says:

      I’m surprised by that — I thought the Jays would have gotten a much better return. Frank Francisco? Really?

      • Chops says:

        I assume he’s stockpiling relievers either for A) selling some at the deadline for prospects or B) waiting till the end of the season and hope they get compensation picks for them.

        AA is a draft guy, so I can’t say I’m surprised. Francisco instantly becomes their closer.

  6. Sheepmeister says:

    Over the past two seasons, with all of the young pitching that is getting locked up into team friendly contracts making it more and more rare for top flight pitching to hit the open market in their prime, I am starting to get worried about the yankees situation. I understand there are the killer B’s and some mid to back end of the rotation starters, but those are all just lottery tickets and there are 5 spots in the rotation. I just hope that the yankees dump more money into scouting/development/coaching at the minor league level so they can keep the influx of young talent coming (esp with the possibility of a worldwide draft with hard slotting coming along in the next CBA).

    • Total Dominication says:

      The Killer B’s are a little more than lottery tickets. It seems likely that 1 of them will work out. I mean, what do you want the Yankees todo. They have one of the best pitching farms in baseball.

      • Sheepmeister says:

        It has more to do after the next CBA if there is a worldwide draft AND hard slotting. Most of the talent is reclamation projects, players drafted b/c they slipped due to contract demands, and international players. That advantage disappears if those things are implemented.

        • Accent Shallow says:

          if there is a worldwide draft

          This would be an absolute disaster for MLB, unless Selig would take some of the money from the central fund to set up academies in the DR, Venezuela, etc. Sheesh, someone should do that in Puerto Rico.

  7. bonestock94 says:

    If you think Voros has it rough, you should talk to his brother Phil.

  8. theyankeewarrior says:

    Fuckin Wandy extension… awesome. Cross him off the list. This off-season is so annoying. Idk how it keeps getting worse.

  9. So the Red Sox wanted Bautista, huh? Would have been cool to see AA fleece Epstein and Bautista start to suck again.

  10. Kiersten says:

    Duchscherer (or whatever) wants to start and will only sign a deal with a team that will let him start.

    The Yankees have 947128947 awesome pitchers in their bullpen and two awesome pitchers in their rotation.

    It’s… a match made in Heaven the Bronx.

    • Steve H says:

      Agree. It’s a great fit. He’s likely to get hurt anyway, but it at least pushes everyone else back in the meantime while pitching better than Mitre.

      • mbonzo says:

        Like you said, he’s likely to get hurt. But I really think he’s less likely to get hurt than anyone else left. He was never a high velocity pitcher, so his motion shouldn’t be too harsh on hips. Of all the injury prone guys left, he’s the least likely to rip his own arm off.

    • Andrew says:

      I am dying for him to sign with NYY at this point. Wouldn’t have to expect 200 innings but if he can stay healthy for 25 starts it makes things a whole lot rosier regardless of what Pettitte does. Then if you have he AND Pettitte next year, that’s quality depth at SP right there.

  11. bexarama says:

    According to Joel Sherman, Coney’s gonna be back doing 25 games or so on YES. :D The offseason just got at least 45 times better!

  12. So on the radio today, I heard the Red Sox’s rotation is “much more dominant” than the Yankees’ rotation. How? Maybe I’m being biased here, but what makes Boston’s starters so much better?

    Sabathia and Lester? Whatever, they’re a wash. They’re the two best lefty pitchers in the AL. After that, BOS/NYY have almost the exact same rotation components: Young guys looking to repeat their first bout of extended success in a ML starting rotation (Hughes and Buchholz)and big name/big money guys looking to bounce back from bad years (Burnett/Beckett+Dice-K+Lackey). The Yankees last two spots of (currently) Nova and Mitre may not be great and, gun to my head, I probably take Dice-BB and Lackey over them, but how is the Boston rotation much more dominant? Am I being too biased here?

    • Accent Shallow says:

      Well, Buchholz did just have a much better season than Hughes (as to its repeatability, talk to me in August), and Beckett/Lackey both have the “ace” reputation (deserved or not). Boston’s rotation is probably stronger, but it’s significantly stronger in terms of names.

    • mike c says:

      you’re undervaluing lackey

    • Stryker says:

      probably. i think the “dominance factor” comes from dice-k/beckett/lackey being names who have histories of success in the american league. nova and mitre – both can’t pitch past the 4th inning and mr. inconsistency himself…not so sexy.

    • Kiersten says:

      Eh, I wouldn’t say they’re “much more dominant,” but they definitely have a better rotation than we do. If Pettitte comes back, it’s a wash, IMO, and if/when the Yankees pick up a starter this year, they could definitely have a better rotation.

      They both have a lot of ?s in the middle or the rotation (Burnett, Beckett, Lackey, plus the young guys).

  13. Teh Comp Pick says:

    First heard about Voros in Moneyball, awesome book. New post on MLBTR about Duchsherer, I really want him in pinstripes.

  14. Stryker says:

    i don’t know how many blueshirts fans we’ve got here, but i’m REALLY loving the wolski/stepan/zuccarello line. what a trade for the rangers.

  15. Stryker says:

    really? eminger and mcdonagh injured now? who do they have left?!?!

  16. It'sATarp says:

    If angels flame out which they most likely will…Dan Haren anyone?

    • mike c says:

      I don’t know about the angels this year… they have a shot in the west now that they’ve added haren, wells (I know, the money), and kendry back to the lineup. I’m crossing my fingers that this is felix’s last season with the M’s before they have to pay him that $60MM they owe him for ’12-14. but until then, I’m all about the killer B’s

    • Andrew says:

      I would be up for Haren, Weaver or Pineiro on the Yanks, so yeah. Who knows who else might be out there in July though. If the Dodgers tank they have a surplus of starters, as well. So I guess LA teams, you are going to suck, give us your starters.

    • Kiersten says:

      Eh, I don’t think the Angels will ever consider themselves out of it. They were pretty much out of it last year when they traded for Haren.

  17. mike c says:

    My sleeper team is Toronto, maybe not this year but they will be good soon

  18. mbonzo says:

    Manny Banuelos #35 on the MLB top 50 prospects.

  19. Eduardo Nunez is listed as the #9 2B prospect:


    He’s played all of 19 games there in the minors and 1 game there in the majors. Um…

  20. Matt says:

    #9 Jesus Montero

  21. Kelmanoj says:


    What do you think about the Yankees getting involved in this?

  22. mbonzo says:

    #10: Julio Teheran
    #9: Jesus Montero
    #8: Eric Hosmer
    #7: Mike Moustakas
    #6: Arolids Chapman
    #5: Dustin Ackley
    #4: Domonic Brown
    #3: Bryce Harper
    #2: Jeremy Hellickson
    #1: Mike Trout

    • mbonzo says:

      Jesus Montero should be #5 on this list at least. Bryce Harper shouldn’t really be on it because he’s barely played anything professionally. I would have gone.

      1. Trout
      2. Brown
      3. Hellickson
      4. Montero

      • joe says:

        Can someone explain to me mike trout and why he is #1 i really dont know much about the kid except that he played in A-ball and was 19yrs old and was a 5 tool OF.Does that really make him #1?

        • mbonzo says:

          He’s an incredible hitter at a very young age (.344/.426/.489) with a lot of speed and a great fielder. He does everything well at 19 years old.

        • Xstar7 says:

          He plays the outfield. Hits for average and can steal a lot of bases. He doesn’t have too much power though. But he’s only 19 and in the single A level so he still has a while to go.

          • mbonzo says:

            Slugging .490 when you’re 18 is a lot.

            Montero slugged .491 when he was 18.

            • Xstar7 says:

              Both Montero and Trout hit for high average but Montero has more power and produces more runs. On the other hand Trout is a better baserunner and defender. Overall Trout seems to be a better prospect.

              • Kiersten says:

                Montero also is in AAA, I don’t know enough about Trout, but if they’re about even otherwise, I would think Montero should get the edge.

                None of this will matter though when Jesus comes up in July and mashes.

                • Xstar7 says:

                  Trout is in the Angels system. He’s done very well so far but #1? It’s a bit questionable. Montero just seems like more of a sure thing right now because he’s more developed and is major-league ready.

                • bexarama says:

                  Trout’s supposed to be a pretty good defensive OF and Montero might have to DH. But like you said, none of it matters. Montero’s not gonna collapse because he’s only #9 on the MLB.com rankings, which are meh.

                  • Xstar7 says:

                    Mike Piazza was a bad defender and look how that turned out. Just let Jesus play catcher. He’ll be fine as long as he makes up for his mediocre defense with spectacular offense. You know, kind of like Jorge Posada.

      • Matt says:

        Hellickson should be 1 imo

    • Kiersten says:

      If Chapman is really going to remain a reliever, no way should he be number 6. But I’m not surprised.

      Agreed that Jesus should be 5.

    • Reggie C. says:

      Trout’s so hyped at this point the kid is getting set up for an underwhelming 2011. I’ve heard rumors that Trout might start the year in AA. HOLY SHIT that’s fast-track.

      Too fast imo. The top 10 should look like this:
      10. Matt Moore
      9. Teheran
      8. Chapman
      7. Trout
      6. Ackley
      5. HARPER (hasn’t done anything yet but i recognize the singular talent at this spot)
      4. Moustakas
      3. Montero
      2. Hellickson
      1. Brown

  23. Kiersten says:

    Yankees have 3 of the top 10 catching prospects. Ballin’.

  24. S says:

    Why does it seem that everyone is on the Kelly Bandwagon? He doesn’t seem that good,outside of his work in that half season he hasn’t done anything to prove he deserves to be highly touted.

    • Total Dominication says:

      Before they put him at too high a level last year he had really great #’s.

      • S says:

        He was there all year…I feel he should have adjusted to the competition at some point but he never did and continued getting whipped in the AFL. Yet the younger Banuelos gets knocked for being short despite pitching better and Matt Moore; who is the same age has done just as well.

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