Jan
25

WFAN Breakfast Notes: Jeter, Joba, Andy, Misc.

By

(Photo Credit: Amanda Rykoff)

Brian Cashman held court at WFAN’s annual “Breakfast with a Champion” this morning, sitting down with Mike Francesa to discuss the state of the Yankees and field questions from the audience. Friend of RAB and espnW’s Amanda Rykoff tweeted the hell out of the breakfast, so I’ve rounded it all up for you. Cashman was tremendously candid and honest with his answers, sometimes brutally. I think we can all appreciate that. Let’s start with the major stuff…

  • Cashman said he’ll be surprised if Derek Jeter sticks at shortstop during all four years of his contract. He sees the Captain winding up in the outfield. If Jeter makes a successful transition to the outfield at his age, I’ll eat my hat.
  • “We’re one starter away from being a World Series contender,” said the GM. It’s hard to argue with that, they were two wins away from the Fall Classic last year and have improved every aspect of the team other than the rotation so far.
  • Ready for a bombshell? Cashman acknowledged that Joba Chamberlain has not been the same since his injury in Texas. It’s the first time anyone involved with the team has publicly discussed the issue even though it was quite obvious. Once again, he said there’s no chance Joba will start.
  • Still nothing new on Andy Pettitte, but Cashman did confirm that the lefty is working out to remain in baseball shape. Cash said his best case rotation scenario at this point has Andy coming back and Ivan Nova sliding down into the fifth starter’s spot.
  • Jorge Posada is the full-time designated hitter, and the starting catcher’s job will be an open competition in Spring Training. I think he means just like the fifth starter job was a competition last year.
  • Cashman said the Red Sox are the better team as of today, but the Yankees have a better bullpen. Part of me thinks that’s a little passive aggressive dig at ownership for Rafael Soriano. Cash called Mariano Rivera “the best Yankee he’s ever seen.”

I’m not so sure about that Jeter stuff, maybe he can fake left field for a year, but I think he’ll wind up at designated hitter if anything. The Joba stuff is pretty groundbreaking, but at least it gives us some closure to the whole “why isn’t he starting” thing. It also tells us that there is some level of concern about Joba’s health going forward.

Here’s the rest, but it’s just a bunch of smaller, miscellaneous items…

  • The Yankees use statistical analysis in combination with scouting reports, but you knew that already.
  • The in-game lineup is Joe Girardi‘s call, but Cashman does discuss it with him. Same deal with Joe Torre back in the day.
  • Cashman called Andruw JonesMarcus Thames with slightly better defense.” Slightly? I think the GM is either underselling Jones or giving Thames too much credit.
  • A.J. Burnett is well aware that his performance was a problem last year and is working hard to correct things.
  • Cash stated the obvious, saying the Yankees have a big advantage over other clubs because they can enjoy a strong farm system while having money to spend on free agents.
  • He also acknowledged that the media coverage in New York can wear you out.
  • “The higher up the tree the monkey climbs, the more you see of his ass.” I’m not quite sure what the means, but it made me laugh.
Categories : News

178 Comments»

  1. bonestock94 says:

    That’s depressing about Joba. I mean we knew both things already, but it sucks when its confirmed by the team with the medical staff and all that. Hopefully he’ll do well in the 4th inning or whatever this year.

    • Poopy Pants says:

      Another hit to his trade value, but at least we got the truth.

    • Ted Nelson says:

      If it’s a high leverage situation in the 4th inning then fine.

      The same logic that applies to “Soriano should not be used only in the 8th, but in high leverage situations” also applies to Joba and Robertson. It’s a luxury to have guys who could be closers on other teams pitching in the 6th or 7th, but it helps the Yankees. (With no data to back me up) I think there are enough high leverage and close-ish game situations in the 6th and 7th that you’re not getting too much into diminishing returns. Not to mention the chances of at least one guy going down at some point during the season.

  2. Chris says:

    I’m not so sure about that Jeter stuff, maybe he can fake left field for a year, but I think he’ll wind up at designated hitter if anything.

    There’s no way that Jeter is a DH. Even in his prime he was barely a good enough hitter to be an effective DH, and at this point in his career he would be one of the worst DHs in the league. He needs to play in the field to provide any real value.

    • Thomas says:

      During his prime, Jeter still would have been a very good DH. His numbers from 1998-2007 were .321/.393/.472 good for a 126 OPS+.

      However, I agree with you he would likely suck as one now.

      • OldYanksFan says:

        And he will suck as badly as a COF. Now, WAR wise, his offense for a SS overshadows his defense, and still has him posting a positive WAR. As a COF in his late 30′s, my guess is offensively, he is average at best, and probably below average. Defensive? Playing a postion he has ZERO experience at, and being older?

        How easy is a COF to learn and play? Ask a young (at the time), fast, athletic Alfonso Soriano just how easy LF was to play.

        Jeter is a SS or a BUInf. There is simply no other position where he has value.

        No big deal. The Yanks just eat $30m or so, and Jeter is gone as a SS in 2 years.

      • RL says:

        Based on last year’s performance. However if he reverts back to and remains at close to career norms, he’d be pretty good. Of course, that’s a large assumption. If his offense bounces back, he may be able to maintain some of his defensive skills as well. Unlikely for the next 4 years, but if he’s serviceable for 3 years in the field, they could probably live with him 1 year at OF/DH. If his fielding falls off sooner, this could get ugly, especailly if he can’t bounce back somewhat offensively.

    • Kiersten says:

      This. Plus we signed some guy named Alex Rodriguez to a 36 year deal.

      • Klemy says:

        “Now stepping to the plate, number 13, 66 year old, Alex Rodriguez. Alex holds the record for most at bats by any player in the game and most homeruns over the ages of 50, 55, 60, and 65.”

    • Ted Nelson says:

      If you assume Jeter is in the line-up one way or another, offensively it doesn’t matter all that much where he’s playing defensively. You have options. Jeter at 3B and A-Rod at DH is the same offensively as Jeter at DH and A-Rod at 3B. Jeter in LF and a good hitter at DH is the same offensively as a good hitter in LF and Jeter at DH. So on paper it’s “bad value” for a given position, but now that you’ve signed him and assume he’s going to be healthy and not totally awful… you just use him in the best way you can. If he is totally awful, perhaps the best way is using Jeter as more of a part-time player.

      If they replace Jeter with a very good SS, that obviously cushions the blow of getting below average production from LF/3B/DH compared to using a league average (aka crap) SS).

    • The Real JobaWockeeZ says:

      He’d literally be replacement level if he’s a DH. SS forever please.

  3. Shaun says:

    I pray this shuts up the “Joba to the rotation” crowd once and for all

    • Shaun says:

      Probably won’t but I pray it does

    • It won’t, and I’ll tell you why. If Cashman had said ‘we don’t think Joba can physically handle starting,’ that would be an acceptable (although unfortunate) reason. But what he said was more akin to ‘Joba’s performance hasn’t been as strong since the ’08 injury.’ In effect, he’s saying the one thing people (who want Joba to be considered for the rotation) don’t want to hear – that the team has decided, based on one year of watching Joba as a starter, that Joba will remain in the bullpen for the rest of his tenure with the Yankees.

      The people, myself included, who want Joba to be considered for the rotation, are aware that his performance slipped after the ’08 injury and are aware of what he did in the rotation in ’09, and simply don’t think the Yankees are making a prudent long-term decision with a valuable asset. Cashman gave his answer, and I find it unacceptable. Cashman’s statement today offered some more insight into the reasoning behind the Yankees’ decision regarding Joba, but it didn’t provide any proof that one side is wrong and one side is right.

      • coolerking101 says:

        I get what you’re saying, but at some point, Yankee fans have to take a hint about Joba. Cash isn’t going to come out and say “we think his arm will fall off if he starts.” Cash has said all he can say without sabotaging whatever value the guy still has left.

        • RL says:

          I think he already has.

          • The Big City of Dreams says:

            That’s the thing if he hasn’t been the same since his injury wouldn’t it make sense to move him when they had the chance. Something doesn’t add up.

            • Mister Delaware says:

              You mean trade him? That’s a pretty big ethical no-no. Just ask Kenny Williams.

              • The Big City of Dreams says:

                lol

                Seriously though if it was clear the kid wasn’t the same why hold onto him as if he’s a piece a gold.

                • Mister Delaware says:

                  For the reason I just said. To be legit, you have to disclose the medicals which reduces his value to the point that its better to just keep him.

                  (That was the weirdest part of the Greinke trade to me. Jeffress might be the prototype for disproportionate own/trade value. Either KC screwed up the risk/reward assessment or Milwaukee just dumped a potential huge upside reliever. I imagine the former.)

                • Ted Nelson says:

                  Beyond what his medicals may or may not say, every team doesn’t go out and trade all their set-up men every year just because they’re not starters. If the Yankees could get more value in a trade for Joba than they think he’s worth I’m sure they would. He’s a very good reliever with a chance to be great under team control… that has a lot of value.

                  Also, “he hasn’t been the same” is not the same as saying “he will never be the same.”

                  • The Big City of Dreams says:

                    He’s not a very good reliever. He’s an inconsistent one with velocity issues.

                    • Ted Nelson says:

                      His 2010 stat line might care to argue with you… 2.98 FIP, 1.4 WAR, etc.

                      I’m not a believer that BABIP is ALL luck, but a .327 BABIP does seem to suggest he had some bad “luck” and could post a better ERA with the same peripherals given another chance. If he keeps his FIP around 3 to go with an ERA from 3-3.5 in 70 innings and a WAR close to 2… Yeah, he is a very good reliever.

        • Andy in Sunny Daytona says:

          What value does a 6th inning reliever have? His trade value is gone. If Cashman believes that Joba is broken and can never be fixed, then why tender him a contract? Why go through the charade of having Joba audition as a starter last spring? I think the handling of Joba is the worst thing Cashman has done during his Yankee tenure.
          That being said, I still think Cashman is an excellent GM, it just seems like he has handled Joba, and his career, poorly.

          • The Big City of Dreams says:

            “Why go through the charade of having Joba audition as a starter last spring? ”

            That’s the same question I asked a friend of mine and he said maybe the used spring to determine Joba could no longer be a starter.

            SMH. But why risk it if Hughes had the job all along.

            • Ted Nelson says:

              Because no one knows that Hughes had the job all along. That’s a narrative fans have made up. Sometimes you hold an honest to goodness open, fair competition and one candidate is just clearly better. It happens.

              Maybe Hughes did have the job, but maybe he didn’t. Why speculate?

              • The Big City of Dreams says:

                Narrative that fans made up?????? Tt was reported by guys that follow the team.

                • The Big City of Dreams says:

                  It*

                • Ted Nelson says:

                  Reporters = fans… “Follow the team.” Does that suggest they are part of the team or someone who follows the team?

                  The fact that someone might have been a favorite going into a competition also doesn’t mean they’re going to win or that there’s no use in having the competition. The same people who are upset that Joba is not a starter are also upset that the Yankees gave him a chance to start last season… makes sense I guess.

                  • The Big City of Dreams says:

                    But reporters have something that fans don’t have which is access.

                    • Ted Nelson says:

                      They absolutely do not have access to internal discussions within the organization. You really think that the handful of high level decision makers with a real say in the 5th starter decision and the decision(s) about Joba’s future were letting reporters know about it?

                  • Mike Axisa says:

                    Reporters are most certainly not fans. They follow the team in the sense that they have to report on it. It’s their job.

                    • Ted Nelson says:

                      They are closer to fans than they are top decision makers in an organizatio. They watch from the outside. Sure they get some leaks, but by and large the organization lets them see and hear what they want them to see and hear.

                      Even inside an organization, you only have so many people who really know what top level decision makers are thinking. Mostly that’s the top level decision makers and maybe a personal assistant who sits in on meetings or someone who works closely with them. I report directly to my company’s CFO, but that doesn’t mean I know about all his decision making or about all the CEO or COO or other top executives thoughts or decisions. I don’t know about 90% of what those people are doing on a daily basis or their thoughts on sensitive and confidential topics. You think players in the locker room or the average front office employee knows what Brian Cashman, Joe Girardi, or some other top decision maker thinks about tough decisions and sensitive/confidential topics? And reporters are not even in the organization.

          • Ted Nelson says:

            Seriously? Really? Sorry, but this is the biggest load of crap.

            There are no high leverage situations in the 7th inning of games? It doesn’t help to have 3 very good relievers? That makes your team worse?

            When did Cashman EVER EVER EVER say “Joba is broken and can never be fixed”? Where did you even come up with that crock? You’re putting words into his mouth. He said “he hasn’t been the same.” He didn’t say he’s broken and he didn’t say he’ll never improve. You can not be the same and still be good. You can not have been the same, but go back to being the same in the future.

            • Mister Delaware says:

              4 good relievers. 5 if you count Feliciano. 6 if you stretch and count Logan.

              • Ted Nelson says:

                I don’t really see diminishing returns, especially when 3/5 of your rotation are total question marks entering the season.

                I meant 3 elite relievers. I would put those 3 above Robertson, though he’s certainly good and fits the “fireman” role well. The lefties are specialists, who hopefully can excel in a limited role.

          • AndrewYF says:

            “If Cashman believes that Joba is broken and can never be fixed, then why tender him a contract?”

            What the f@$k kind of reasoning is this? Just because a player isn’t what he was, why would you get rid of him for nothing if he still has value?

        • David says:

          They do need to take the hint. He isn’t a slightly important element of the team. Brilliant baseball people like Michael and Girardi have deemed that he can’t be an effective starter. As a reliever, he is what – an average middle reliever? Who cares about Joba? He will have little or no impact on what they achieve this year, and he may have little or no trade value.

          • Ted Nelson says:

            “As a reliever, he is what – an average middle reliever?”

            Wrong.

            “He isn’t a slightly important element of the team.”

            Wrong again. He is their 3rd best relief pitcher.

            “He isn’t a slightly important element of the team.”

            Again, wrong. He had a 1.4 WAR last season. That made him their 5th most valuable pitcher on the season.

            • The Big City of Dreams says:

              3rd best relief pitcher???? In the spectrum of big games how many times will Joba be called upon. There might be days when he doesn’t even see the mound.

              • Mike Axisa says:

                There might be days when he doesn’t even see the mound.

                Is this a serious statement? It’s true for every relief pitcher in the history of the game.

                • The Big City of Dreams says:

                  I mean in the grand scheme of things regarding how some fans believe his value as a middle reliever is higher than it actually is.

              • Ted Nelson says:

                The Yankees have 1 starter who can be counted on for 7 innings on a regular basis. The others averaged 6 or fewer innings per start last season. At 1 inning a piece you are going to need at least 3 relievers a whole lot. So, Joba will be called upon a whole lot in big games. Thanks for not even considering the facts and just assuming that all middle relievers are crap and useless. Makes sense.

                • The Big City of Dreams says:

                  They aren’t crap or useless but at the same time lets not act like it’s the end all be all. Hopefully Joba does well this season but if he fails again I’m sure ppl will still say he was just unlucky and 2012 is his make or break yr.

                  • Ted Nelson says:

                    Let’s not act like team need 3 relief pitchers?

                    • The Big City of Dreams says:

                      What do they need more a middle reliever or starter?

                    • Ted Nelson says:

                      “What do they need more a middle reliever or starter?”

                      As of right not Joba is not starting. Period. They’ve that really clear. Why concern yourself with that? He’s a reliever. They need a starter and Joba is not going to be that guy.

                      You can question that decision, but that says nothing about his value as a reliever. Saying he would be more valuable as a starter does not mean he is not valuable as a reliever.

        • Oh the hint is taken, but that doesn’t mean anyone has to throw up their hands and agree with the reasoning.

          Things change over time. Cashman might not be here forever, starters may go down to injury, Joba may rediscover, either suddenly or over time, his old stuff/performance… You really never know. I take issue with the idea that people have to suddenly stop wanting Joba to be considered for the rotation just because it’s not going to happen today. I still want Joba considered for the rotation and, while I’m not going to bring it up in every conversation ad nauseum, I certainly won’t give up on arguing for what I think is right just because it’s not happening immediately.

          • Mister Delaware says:

            What I don’t (won’t ever?) get is that he’s got a 4 pitch repetoire. Couldn’t you shelve his most dangerous pitch (I assume the curve), take him down from max effort and make him a 90-92 mph FB/slider/change starter on a regular schedule? Sure, he may not dominate, but if he’s hovering around a 4.25 ERA he’d be plenty valuable to us.

            • DF says:

              I think Joba’s control is not good enough to survive with that kind of diminished velocity. He doesn’t exactly paint the corners. Toning down the effort on his pitches might improve his control, though.

              Though from my (admittedly very small) pitching experience, sliders hurt way more than curves if you’re throwing them wrong, because you throw a slider much harder than a curve.

              • Mister Delaware says:

                I was assuming (hoping?) he throws them properly, at which point I’d think the snap on the curve would be the biggest risk. But I agree with everything, there’s a chance he’s a zero in the rotation but it still seems worth it knowing you’re risking your 3rd/4th best righty reliever to possibly fill a gaping hole in the rotation. If he fails, so what, you’ve still got D-Rob, Soriano and Mariano. If he succeeds, big win.

      • RL says:

        Agree, it won’t stop the calls for Joba to the starting rotation. It seems obvious that this is not in the Yankees’ plans. It seems to indicate that there is concern about his health, but he doesn’t clearly state that. Either way it does hurt his trade value. With Cash stating this, even carefully stating this, I have to believe any medical issues that may exist with Joba would be evident in any medicals seen by a potential trade partner.

        If there are no real medical issues, I’d be all for Joba starting and believe it would be in the Yankees best interest. Based on even his ’09 results, he still passes the BTM test. Heck, even if there are medical issues, I might still consider this. Are they just trying to extend his career? If so, is there more value than a 3, 4, or 5 year career as a middle reliever than in 1 or 2 years as a starter?

        • “…It seems obvious that this is not in the Yankees’ plans. It seems to indicate that there is concern about his health, but he doesn’t clearly state that.”

          See, people keep saying ‘Cashman said it’s because of his health,’ but I disagree and think that’s a misinterpretation of what Cashman said. Cashman didn’t say ‘Joba can’t physically handle starting,’ he said ‘Joba’s stuff has been diminished since the ’08 injury and we think he’s now a better fit in the bullpen than in the rotation.’ I think people are reading something into Cashman’s words that they want to have been there, but wasn’t actually there. What he said today was really no different than what he’s been saying the last few months, other than finally putting a date on when the diminished stuff started (the ’08 injury).

          • RL says:

            Fully agree with you. Cash is carefully saying things that lead people to believe there is a medical issue, but he hasn’t ever said that. Also agree that Joba absolutely should be considered for the starting rotation until he mentally or physically falls apart (or is traded).

      • Shaun says:

        More than likely I would trust the numerous scouts the FO has access to in addition to the medical reports by some of the best doctors and trainers around (Yankee trainers were named the best in baseball very recently)
        I appreciate your honest answer on Joba, but in this day and age where leaks spring up all the time, the fact that the entire yankee organization says the same thing (or absolutely nothing at all) hints that there is far more than meets the eye.

        What are the chances that the entire organization is for some reason blind, deaf and dumb to Joba being the best current option unless something was wrong. (seriously) Besides, Joba might have told the Yankees/ or flat out refused to let them reveal any medical issues that he might have. Unless Joba gives the written consent anything revealed would lead to a huge lawsuit.

        • RL says:

          Clearly we’re all speculating here. If there is a medical issue and Joba refuses to allow his medicals to be released, his trade value is 0. So that puts us back to the question “where is he of most value to the Yankees, a starter for a short period or a middle reliever for a longer period?”

        • “…in this day and age where leaks spring up all the time, the fact that the entire yankee organization says the same thing (or absolutely nothing at all) hints that there is far more than meets the eye.”

          See, I agree with the gist of what you’re saying here, but I have a totally different reaction to it. Not once has anyone ever said or even implied that the Yankees have secret medical information on Joba that leads them to believe he can handle relieving but not starting. In this day and age, where leaks spring up all the time, the fact that nothing has ever leaked about Joba’s health leads me to believe there’s nothing to leak. In order to believe that the Yankees have some sort of secret medical information, you’d have to believe that not only has every single person with such knowledge kept that information (or even the existence of that information) secret, but also that people who have left the organization have kept that information (and even the very existence of that information) secret even when they are no long employed by the Yankees and might even be incentivized to reveal the information.

          For a guy (Cashman) who seems to want these questions to stop, you’d think if he had such a discussion-ending answer in his back pocket he’d use it, no?

          Which leads us to another aspect of this conversation – people seem to think the Yanks are hiding the information because it somehow protects Joba’s trade value. If that were so, however, wouldn’t the Yankees have been aggressive in trying to trade (and in all likelihood trading) Joba as soon as they made the decision that his health precludes him from starting, so as to extract as much value out of him as possible? In addition, this idea that the Yanks are somehow protecting Joba’s trade value by keeping some sort of medical information under wraps just doesn’t pass muster with me. If we, as outsiders, are constantly questioning whether there’s something wrong with Joba physically, don’t you think other MLB front offices would be asking the same questions if Joba were ever involved in trade discussions? It’s not like keeping this information secret somehow pulls the wool over the eyes in other front offices. Not to mention that if he were traded, he’d undergo a physical with his new team before the trade were completed, and in all likelihood this ‘secret’ information would no longer be a secret.

    • The Big City of Dreams says:

      Can we just trade the kid

      • steve (different one) says:

        If the concern with Joba is health related, than the return in trade will be commensurate with that.

        Teams do physicals. Teams exchange medicals. Nothing Cashman says is going to make a team ignore those facts.

        This idea of a wildly inefficient market where we can pass off damaged goods and get the return of top prospect Joba is prob a fantasy.

        Just guessing, but this is prob a huge reason why Cashman was so pissed about Soriano. He has a guy that he feels (maybe rightly, maybe wrongly) can’t start and won’t bring much in trade so the way to maximize his value is to have him set up, but ownership just spent half his remaining dollars on a better version of the same thing.

        • The Big City of Dreams says:

          The thing is though Cashman was trying to work out a sign and trade for Balfour so either way Joba wasn’t going to be the primary set-up man for the Yankees.

          • steve (different one) says:

            At $4M, I don’t think Balfour would have had the same status as Soriano. He’s be part of the “setup crew” with Joba, D-Rob and Felicianco. He would have been a more modest expenditure.

            Point taken though.

  4. jon says:

    I thought this was stranger when talking about the 5th starter he talked about everyone in aaa and aa but not brackman.

    a funny part was someone asked what are the chances of trading for king Felix but he used the wrong first name and cash just went with it

  5. MONKEYJAW says:

    Does Francesa remind anyone else of a male Rosie O’Donnell? Oh wait…that last part was a redundancy…oops!

  6. theyankeewarrior says:

    It sucks that our GM is powerless when it comes to acquiring the piece that we need.

    He’s “hoping” just like the rest of us.

    I hope that he’s doing more than that. I hope there’s at least a little bit of wooing going on. Pettitte is so important right now.

    • Mike Axisa says:

      Powerless in that ownership won’t let him, or powerless in that there’s just nothing available?

      • ColoYank says:

        And the difference here is night and day. I’d say it’s definitely the latter. After Lee signed with the Phils, any reasonable deal for the Yanks to obtain an SP that MIGHT have been available immediately evaporated.

      • theyankeewarrior says:

        Just that there’s nothing available. I meant Pettitte specifically. I’m sure Cash can swing a trade mid-season. But I’m referring to the fact that he is just hoping Andy will return.

        I’m hoping that he will do more than hope. And actually try and entice him to give it one more go.

        But he’s said publicly that he won’t do that. He will just hope.

      • derek says:

        I think powerless in that Lee had no intention of coming here

    • Ted Nelson says:

      I have no idea, but just giving him time may actually be the best approach with Pettitte. Bugging him could push him away if space and time are what he wants. I also don’t know how much you can do to “woo” a guy with more money than he can count, a handful of WS rings, and 240 career wins. If he really wants 250 wins, you don’t exactly have to point the obvious out. About the only thing I can see helping is just piling on money and overpaying out of desperation. I am not necessarily against that.

  7. Mike says:

    ?We?re one starter away from being a World Series contender,? said the GM. It?s hard to argue with that, they were two wins away from the Fall Classic last year and have improved every aspect of the team other than the rotation so far.


    Im just glad he knows.

  8. jon says:

    It interesting that he thinks arod will stay at 3rd long term

    • Mike Axisa says:

      I don’t think he ever said that.

    • Reggie C. says:

      Its time to downgrade the value of the “asset.”

      2011 is really a make-it-or-break-it year for Joba if he’s thinking of getting rich in pinstripes. He’s gonna need to put up some impressive stats in 70 innings. Maybe then a team like the Tigers will trade for Joba and re-convert him to a starter ala Phil Coke.

      • RL says:

        if he’s thinking of getting rich in pinstripes.

        I’d take his contract any day. It’d take me nearly 10 years to reach that number! And it’d take most of the readers here nearly twice that I suspect! I get what you’re saying, but he’s still making a damn good salary! Most people, with ordinary expectations in life, would be quite satisified with his projected salaries if he remains in pinstripe. However, it is possible he’d make more if he were traded and converted back to a starter.

    • Poopy Pants says:

      If the Yanks still had Thames, they could have used him to spell A-Rod! Damn Cashman!

    • Ted Nelson says:

      If he said “Jeter will DH” he would have been basically saying that, but “Jeter to OF” leaves that pretty open ended.

  9. Roberto Pollo says:

    Has anyone ever called out Jaba’s conditioning. In locker room interviews he’s got zero muscle definition.

    • whozat says:

      Neither does CC.

      • C-Mac says:

        Yeah, but I’m going to guarantee that CC would absolutely PUMMEL Joba in a strength contest. CC’s got like, over a half a foot on Joba in height? A bigger frame, more leverage, way longer history of athleticism… Conditioning does not just = not being big.

    • gc says:

      David Wells says hi.

      • OldYanksFan says:

        2 wrongs don’t make a right. Yes, there are fattys who are great pitchers. Does this mean young pitchers should bone up on Ben & Jerry’s and come into camp fat?

        Even Brain Bruney was willing to shape up in hopes of improving his game. One would think Joba would take his conditioning more seriously… because…. you Joba, are no CC (or Wells).

        • Mike Axisa says:

          He’s not exactly CC or Wells in the weight category either. A player’s weight doesn’t become a problem until he starts underperforming. It’s just something to cherry pick and complain about.

          Brian Bruney and Jon Albaladejo lost a ton of weight and guess what? They were still awful.

    • CU Tiger says:

      Phil Hughes isn’t exactly ripped either.

      • C-Mac says:

        But Hughes is known for his focus on conditioning, especially since his injury plagued season. I remember reading how he specifically was trying to add weight and muscle to his frame to stop those injuries from happening again.

    • Mister Delaware says:

      Mariano is too damn skinny to hold up for another 5-6 years.

    • Opus says:

      Gonna have to bring back the bullpen car for that fatty in case he gets winded walking to the mound. Maybe that’s why he’s not a starter, they’d have to keep driving him out there for multiple innings.

  10. Kiersten says:

    Methinks Cash is none too happy with Jeter’s 4-year deal.

    • OldYanksFan says:

      How do you spell “$30m sink hole”?

    • Mike Axisa says:

      I think it’s one of those rare deals where no one is happy. Not the team, not Jeter, not the fans.

      • Jess says:

        Why would the fans not be happy? It’s not their money. 90% of Yankee fans just care that Derek Jeter is back.

        • Steve H says:

          I care and am not thrilled with the contract. There is a budget (even if it’s a soft budget) and paying well over market at one position potentially weakens another position where there is less wealth to spread around.

          • Mister Delaware says:

            There’s a stated budget but when is the last time the Yanks didn’t alter the budget to get someone they really wanted? Until Jeter’s deal costs them elsewhere, it should be a non-factor to any of us.

            • Steve H says:

              But we don’t or won’t know whether Jeter’s (or anyone else that got paid well over market rate for the hell of it) contract ever costs the Yankees a player.

              • Ted Nelson says:

                When the Yankees have offered Lee the money they did and gone out and signed a second highly paid closer just this offseason… Hard to argue it’s cost them yet. Going forward who knows, but seems unlikely. They’ve got all their everyday players locked up for at least 2 more seasons. Besides Posada, who can probably be replaced/brought back cheaper and gives them salary relief.

                And how do you know that player it might have cost them would have produced? It’s about as likely to have cost them an overpaid player as an upgrade. As long as they win 95 games and compete seriously for the WS… I’m not too worried about it.

            • Ted Nelson says:

              Agreed. Where besides SP do the Yankees not have plenty of wealth? And even at SP they were willing to spend a bazillion dollars on Cliff Lee just this offseason. Plus they have a strong group that could be coming up from the minors and producing on the cheap as Jeter ages.

              I’m not thrilled to be overpaying Jeter, either, but I’m just not too worried about it.

  11. Reggie C. says:

    (Not sure why this appeared as a reply to an earlier comment initially …)

    Its time to downgrade the value of the “asset.”

    2011 is really a make-it-or-break-it year for Joba if he’s thinking of getting rich in pinstripes. He’s gonna need to put up some impressive stats in 70 innings. Maybe then a team like the Tigers will trade for Joba and re-convert him to a starter ala Phil Coke.

    • Accent Shallow says:

      I wish the Tigers luck with the Phil Coke Experience. Multiple innings of pointing to flyballs?

      Seriously, Coke was a reliever for a good reason – lack of stuff/success.

  12. David says:

    Back to Joba for hopefully the last time. If there was any truth at all to the opinion that he would in fact be an effective starter, Cash would be shuffling through offers for him. Smart teams like perhaps the Twins would be saying “Cashman has him buried. Our reports say that he can be perhaps an effective #3 starter. Let’s see what it would take to get him”.

    There – Done!!

    • Ted Nelson says:

      Let me first say that I’m not critical of the organization for its handling of Joba.

      We have no idea what trade offers Cashman is getting or could get for Joba. Teams don’t just have to think Joba could be a good starter, they have to be willing to give the Yankees more than the Yankees think he’s worth. A 25 year old elite reliever with at least 3 more years of team control (aka cheap) and the potential to be their best reliever over the next 10 or so years if re-signed is pretty valuable. Given how much they pay Mo, Soriano, Marte, and Feliciano… the Yankees are clearly of the opinion relief pitching is valuable. Plus the Yankees are a team that’s going to place more value on major league production relative to prospects compared to a lot of smaller market and non-contending teams.

      The fact that he hasn’t been traded doesn’t necessarily say much about the demand for his services league-wide.

      • The Big City of Dreams says:

        Joba’s elite?????

        “The fact that he hasn’t been traded doesn’t necessarily say much about the demand for his services league-wide.”

        But is that based on his performance taking a step back or being pigeon holed into a relief role? Or is it a combination of both

        • Ted Nelson says:

          Yes. 2.98 FIP and 1.4 WAR means you are an elite reliever depending on how you define elite.

          “But is that based on his performance taking a step back or being pigeon holed into a relief role?”

          I don’t see how that relates to the quote you post above it. The only thing that his not being traded says is that no trade opportunity has come along where a team is willing to give the Yankees more for Joba than he’s worth to the Yankees. Or maybe what they think he’s worth in a trade if they think his trade value is higher than his value to the Yankees: i.e. hold him because you’ll get more later. That’s all it says. It says nothing about his performance or being pigeon holed or anything else.

          • The Big City of Dreams says:

            I disagree I don’t think he’s elite. He was too inconsistent last yr to be considered an elite reliever.

            • Ted Nelson says:

              He was the 27th best reliever in baseball in 2010 according to WAR, and there are 30 teams. Again, it depends how you define elite. If you’re talking about a handful of guys? No. If you’re talking about someone who could be a closer right now? Yes.

              • The Big City of Dreams says:

                I want to make sure I have this right because I don’t want to put words in your mouth. You think he could be a closer right now given what you have seen?

                • Ted Nelson says:

                  There are 30 “closers” in baseball. I think he is one of the top 30 relievers in baseball. So, yes, I think he could be a “closer” right now.

                  You don’t need to put words into my mouth when I clearly stated it.

                  I have actually used stats to back up this position. You, on the other hand, just keep talking about what you’ve seen. I don’t really care to discuss it if that’s the entire basis of your argument.

                  • The Big City of Dreams says:

                    He couldn’t even pitcher the 8th inning last yr and lost his job to Wood. The only reason he had success was because he was moved into lower leverage situations. So I’m suppose to believe he could be a closer. Good luck with that.

          • C-Mac says:

            “Yes. 2.98 FIP and 1.4 WAR means you are an elite reliever depending on how you define elite.”

            “It depends on what the meaning of the word ‘is’ is.” – Bill Clinton, 1998.

  13. >>I think it’s one of those rare deals where no one is happy. Not the team, not Jeter, not the fans

    Which is probably why it was the best possible outcome. If even 2 of the 3 parties were happy at the expense of the 3rd we’d still be talking about it

  14. SamVa says:

    Thanks Mike for the summary of all of that.

    I saw someone above comment about ARod not continuing at third in the later years of his contract. Would he and DJ split time at DH/LF? I mean even with his arm strength I don’t see ARod making a very good defensive LF’er at all. Jeter may be decent, but all we can do is speculate. Anyone’s thoughts?

    Also, I know what they say about Joba, but does anyone else have any small feeling that they may indeed give him another shot? (unless there truly is something wrong with his medicals)
    Cashman has said a lot of things to the media that turn out to be the exact opposite of what is true. Not saying that this is one of them, but couldn’t you see ownership stepping in and saying something about it?
    They did it on Soriano. One never knows these days I guess.

    • The Big City of Dreams says:

      I wouldn’t bet my life on it. It seems like they are doing everything they can to not even put Joba in a situation to start. Looking at guys like Garcia, Millwood, and Duchscherer…waiting for Andy to come back and having Nova and Mitre in front of Joba on the depth chart.

  15. Greg says:

    The seeing the monkey’s ass thing is just a saying. I heard Jerry Lewis say it on a talk show several years ago, but I doubt he originated it.

    It just means that the higher up the ladder you are ( in any role/profession in life), the more people see of you, the more you are scrutinized and your mistakes magnified.

    • YankeeDave says:

      This expression aptly applies to how the Yankees are held to a higher standard in the public’s perception. Whether it is because of the money, or being NYC, that is just the way it is.

      On some days, it would seem not so much a case of seeing the monkey’s ass, but rather of the monkey receiving a daily colonoscopy.

      • Moo Chow Loo says:

        In reality, as a monkey climbs higher up the tree, you’d see less and less of his ass. There would be more branches and leaves getting in the way.

        Just sayin’…

  16. Fair Weather Freddy says:

    Wonder if the reason Cash is being so candid as never before is that he really is thinking of leaving after this season and he just figures that I may as well just speak my mind from now on

  17. Monteroisdinero says:

    Derek Jeter is no outfielder. nuff said. After Posada retires, he is also no DH. Let’s get as much good Derek at SS as we can these next 3 years. Please help him at the plate KLong!

    • Poopy Pants says:

      Mariano is the best CF on the team!!

      - Michael Kay

    • twac00 says:

      It’s really a 4 year deal. There’s no way Jeter turns down at least $8M in 2014. Unless, Cashman’s plan is to make him a DH in 2013 and piss Jeter off so much that he’ll decline out of hatred.

  18. Poopy Pants says:

    But what did Cashman EAT for the breakfast???

  19. MikeD says:

    I know some have mentioned that Cash acknowledging Joba’s injury will hurt his trade value, but I don’t agree. His trade value was already hurt because of the injury. Face it, we’ve discussed Joba’s loss of velocity since the August ’08 injury in Texas right here on RAB, so what are the chances that MLB teams with professional scouts and who are interested in trading for Joba are not aware of the injury? Keith Law even referenced it in one of his weekly chats in November or December. This is hardly shocking news. Cash came out and stated it clearly for the media. The rest of baseball already knew.

    • The Big City of Dreams says:

      That might be the case so once again why not trade him when they had the chance too? Why keep damaged goods on the roster?

      • AndrewYF says:

        You’re saying it like there was a deal on the table with Joba as the centerpiece. Joba’s not going to be a centerpiece for any big-time deal, and that’s not really Cashman’s fault. His performance dictates his trade value, and his performance has not been all that good.

        I’m guessing you’re thinking of the Haren deal. Well, it’s much more likely that the cost was Joba plus Nova plus two of the Yankees’ best pitching prospects (including one of the ‘B’s).

    • RL says:

      Cash said nothing about an injury to Joba. Only that he hasn’t been the same since his ’08 injury. That could be a mental thing that’s not allowing him to reach his believed potential prior to the injury.

  20. Jess says:

    Cashman is going to look really bad if Soriano is lights out this year.

    • Joey says:

      He never said he didn’t think Soriano wasn’t a solid RP. For that money he thought the resources were better off being allocated elsewhere or saved. Don’t think Soriano’s performance should reflect anything about Cashman

    • Mike Axisa says:

      Wait until he has to ask Hal to go over budget to secure a player at the deadline because $12M is tied up in a middle reliever.

      • MikeD says:

        …or when he opts out after 2011 or 2012. The only way I see him being on the Yankees for three years is he’s injured or has a loss of effectiveness. It doesn’t matter if he’s scheduled to make $14 million in 2013. If Mo retires, then Boras has leverage. If Mo doesn’t retire, Boras still puts Soriano back on the market, because a three-year contract at $10-12 million per is more money than the $14 million for one year in 2013.

        If Soriano is still on the Yankees for all three years, it’s going to be bad for Yanks.

        • Ted Nelson says:

          Or the Yankees just call Boras’ bluff and let Soriano walk if some combo of Joba, Robertson, whatever prospects don’t make it as starters but do as relievers, relief prospects, Logan, Feliciano, free agents, trade acquisitions, etc. are in place to form a strong bullpen. They take their 2 comp picks and year or two of strong relief and walk away the better for it. Or they re-sign him to a deal they’re comfortable with. Why are the Yankees the helpless victims in your narrative?

          • MikeD says:

            I think, in some way, we’re actually agreeing. I hope Soriano does walk after 2011. That means he has a great year, which helped the Yankees, and their exposure to a future injury is now gone. They get draft picks and can move on. I’m more concerned if he’s still here in 2014.

            • Ted Nelson says:

              Yeah, who knows what will happen. I don’t think it’s a given he opts out. Even pitching well he probably doesn’t match his 2010 #s. If not too many teams with $ are looking for a closer, $24 mill in just 2 years is a lot to leave on the table. Same for 1 year $14 mill.

              If he leaves, it’s fine provided the Yanks have other options. If he continues to be one of the top closers out there and the Yankees re-sign him I’m also not too worried. So, since he’s been largely effective when healthy, injury is my only big fear. Same with any pitcher.

      • Ted Nelson says:

        I don’t see any indication that’s going to be a problem… You really think Hal and Co. didn’t see the gaping hole in the rotation when they shelled out for Soriano and realize it might take a substantial investment to fix that hole? I don’t even understand your point here really, but you really think they’re that dumb? You really think they don’t WANT to spend on a good starter if one is available? (Maybe even Pettitte soon.)

  21. mike hc says:

    So cashman says we are one starter away from being a ws contender out of one side of his mouth and then says joba will still not be given that chance to be that one starter out of the other side. Give the guy a chance and stop telling him and the fans he can’t be an effective starter.

    • The Big City of Dreams says:

      They seem dead set on having him relieve. Hopefully they are right if not then it once again speaks to how bad they are at developing.

      • Ted Nelson says:

        They’ve done such a terrible job “developing” Cano, Montero, Hughes, Gardner, Joba, Robertson, Nunez, all the non-Montero prospects in their top 10 farm system, all the prospects they’ve traded for proven major leaguers… Just terrible. If every team was that terrible they’d only be winning 95 games and getting to game 6 of the LCS too…

  22. The Big City of Dreams says:

    Ted Nelson says:
    January 25, 2011 at 1:23 pm

    They absolutely do not have access to internal discussions within the organization. You really think that the handful of high level decision makers with a real say in the 5th starter decision and the decision(s) about Joba’s future were letting reporters know about it?

    ——————————-

    So the guys that reported that just made it up lol. What would they gain from that anyway

    • Ted Nelson says:

      Do you really believe everything you read in the paper? Every single rumor about private discussions held inside the Yankees org is true? Every time the paper says the Yankees are fine with Bubba Crosby and not signing Damon it’s always true?

      What they have to gain is selling papers. They are in the business of selling papers (or ads or clicks or whatever).

      • The Big City of Dreams says:

        Forget it Ted it was all made up it was all lies by those reporters. They were just going on a hunch instead of actual reporting.

        If ppl sit and think for a minute it makes sense why Hughes was the odds on favorite when you look back on the moves made and the things that happened.

        • Ted Nelson says:

          If Cashman or Girardi or Eiland wanted to go publicly say that it was a sham, we would not have to read it from “anonymous” sources because we’d have it right from their mouth. Since they have not said it, there’s no way to verify the truthfulness of the reporters. But, yes, some of what appears on the sports sections of NY’s papers is nothing but BS. Masculine tabloids. Irrational opinions. Total speculation. It happens, and it’s usually written in a way that leads you to believe it’s fact rather than conjecture or the say so of some locker room attendant.

          “going on a hunch instead of actual reporting.”

          Since when was going on a hunch not actual reporting? What leads you to believe that everything written in the sports section is 100% fact? That writers don’t speculate, read into things, etc.?

          Again, being the favorite going into a competition is not at all the same as the competition being a sham or unfair.

          • The Big City of Dreams says:

            Whoever said it was a sham or unfair????? I don’t get why ppl get so bent out of shape with it being Hughes job to lose. It just points to the fact that they gave up on Joba as a starter despite stating otherwise throughout the season. Now they have a middle reliever that they clearly overvalue.

  23. The Big City of Dreams says:

    “His 2010 stat line might care to argue with you… 2.98 FIP, 1.4 WAR, etc.

    I’m not a believer that BABIP is ALL luck, but a .327 BABIP does seem to suggest he had some bad “luck” and could post a better ERA with the same peripherals given another chance. If he keeps his FIP around 3 to go with an ERA from 3-3.5 in 70 innings and a WAR close to 2… Yeah, he is a very good reliever.”

    We’re going to have to agree to disagree about him being a very good reliever.

    • Ted Nelson says:

      I don’t need to agree to disagree because I’m doing nothing but citing stats. I didn’t make those stats up or mis-represent them. They are what they are. If being one of the 30 most productive relievers in a season doesn’t make you very good in your opinion, then there aren’t many very good relievers in all of baseball.

  24. The Big City of Dreams says:

    When I said developing I meant in terms of pitchers but if we want to include everyone we can do that.

    Cano- was before Cashman took over control. The same Cano they had in trade packages more than once. They had no idea what they had in Cano. He was a surprise to them more than anything.

    Nunez – too early to tell. He’s seen as Jeter’s replacement. IMO he’s more of a stop gap

    Garnder – nice player but more of a role player

    Montero – one of the best prospects in baseball who the Yankees were willing to trade for a 2 month rental…Cliff Lee.

    Hughes – like Cano was picked up before Cashman had full control. Hughes had a promising season last yr but we have to see if he can do it again.

    Robertson – solid BP arm. I like D-rob

    • Ted Nelson says:

      The point is that by your standards no team is any good at “developing” prospects.

      What are you talking about? Cashman became GM in 1998, Cano signed in 2001. You have zero credibility. This is a waste of my time.
      Make up your mind. Is it about acquiring the player or “developing” them?

      “Montero – one of the best prospects in baseball who the Yankees were willing to trade for a 2 month rental…Cliff Lee.”

      What does trading him or not have to do with how they “developed” him? Nothing. And they didn’t trade him anyway.

      “Hughes – like Cano was picked up before Cashman had full control. Hughes had a promising season last yr but we have to see if he can do it again.”

      Again, what on earth are you talking about. You think George Steinbrenner was running the draft? Cashman has been GM since 1998. Phil Hughes was drafting in 2004. Yes, Cashman did oversee the drafting of Phil Hughes. Yes. Yes. How else can I say it? Yes.

      Cashman, by the way, is not the Yankees. He is an employee of the Yankees. You said that they cannot develop prospects. Cashman is not a they, but a he.

      I’m done.

      • The Big City of Dreams says:

        I’m just using the phrase that many fans use when looking at Cashman;s tenure with the Yankees. Everyone says you can’t count what happened before he took over because he had to deal with George and the Tampa group so just look at what he did since he took over. If we’re going to go with that than you have to push aside giys like Cano and Hughes, No?

        “Cashman, by the way, is not the Yankees. He is an employee of the Yankees. You said that they cannot develop prospects. Cashman is not a they, but a he.”

        But he is the GM of the team is he not. If he’s going to take the praise he also has to take some of the blame. I’m not a Cashman hater but I have to disagree with what he does when I think he’s wrong.

        • The Big City of Dreams says:

          Cashman’s*

        • Ted Nelson says:

          “Everyone says you can’t count what happened before he took over because he had to deal with George and the Tampa group so just look at what he did since he took over.”

          Again, do you think George was making decisions on every IFA and draft pick? Maybe on the budget to acquire those players. Maybe on general strategy. Maybe on a really expensive player. Generally, though, I’m going to guess he wasn’t getting into the trenches too much on evaluating 16 year old Dominicans.

          “If we’re going to go with that than you have to push aside giys like Cano and Hughes, No?”

          Not if you’re talking about “developing.” When George stepped aside Hughes hadn’t thrown a pitch above A ball. There’s been a lot of “development” since then. Cano was coming off his rookie season with a 106 OPS+. Again, plenty of development since the 2005 season.

          “But he is the GM of the team is he not. If he’s going to take the praise he also has to take some of the blame.”

          You are not going to credit him for anyone acquired before 2006, yet you are going to blame him for an inability to develop Major Leaguers in the past 4 years? 2006 was 4 years ago in terms of acquiring amateurs. How many amateurs acquired in that time do you expect to be contributing big leaguers by now? In reality, since then the Yankees have acquired mostly all their prize prospects (Montero, Sanchez, Betances, Banuelos, Brackman, Romine, David Adams, Adam Warren, etc.) They have acquired Joba and Kennedy in the same First round. David Robertson. Mark Melancon (Lance Berkman). Arodys Vizcaino (Javy Vazquez). Zach McAllister (Austin Kearns). I don’t know how many other teams can claim that amount of success since 2006. I count 2 amateurs the Rays acquired in that time making an impact on their team so far, and they were both top 3 overall picks (Price and Longoria). Boston was able to trade for Adrian Gonzalez with prospects, but otherwise Bard is the only guy on their 2010 team I see who was acquired as an amateur since 2006.

          An 18 year old you be 22 or so right now. So if we are going to accept your 2006 rule–which I do not–you just can’t look at 20 year old prospects in A ball as evidence the Yankees can’t develop talent under his leadership. You need to give him a few more years before seeing the returns on those prospects and any trends developing. Right now they’ve got a top 10 farm system, so things look promising.

  25. The Big City of Dreams says:

    “As of right not Joba is not starting. Period. They’ve that really clear. Why concern yourself with that? He’s a reliever. They need a starter and Joba is not going to be that guy.

    You can question that decision, but that says nothing about his value as a reliever. Saying he would be more valuable as a starter does not mean he is not valuable as a reliever.”

    True he isn’t going to start my point is if he was starting pitching once every 5 days would be more productive to the team than pitching as a middle reliever.

  26. David says:

    “One starter away from being a World Series contender” could mean a Montero trade, particularly if Andy retires. It would have to be a top quality young starter of the Madison Bumgarner variety. If Cash wanted to do that for a Lee rental, he certainly would do it for a young starter that he viewed as having Montero-level potential, particularly when you consider the signing of Martin and the prospect catching depth that we have.

  27. Russ says:

    Did anyone hear Francessa on the breakfast with Cashman? He started talking about all the pitching prospects in the system and couldn’t even pronounce either Benuelos or Betances names. How does the supposed #1 sports guy in the NY media not know the names of the Yankees top 2 pitching prospects? It’s even worse since he’s a Yankee fan. It was a total embarrassment, like he had never even heard of them before today.

    It sounded like he was being possessed by the ghost of Mad Dog Russo.

  28. themgmt says:

    Cashman seems senile here. And I’m a Cashman fan in general.

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