Open Thread: Andy Pettitte
By
(AP Photo/ John Bazemore)
Joe and I talked about it on the podcast earlier today, but I figured I’d bring it up here for discussion purposes. My signature Andy Pettitte moment, so to speak, is Game Five of the 1996 World Series. I was young, just a few days away from my 15th birthday at the time, and that game was one of the first that I can remember actually feeling. You know what I mean, that feeling of living and dying on every pitch, that stress that comes with not knowing what’s going to happen next and having no control over it. That feeling didn’t kick in until about the sixth or seventh inning, after the Yankees scored their lone run and we were able to starting counting down the outs on one hand. That was my first championship as a Yankee fan and I’m never ever ever going to forget it. Game Five was a huge part of it, all because of that guy right up there. I’m gonna miss the big lug.
* * *
Anyways, here’s your open thread on this chilly, somber evening. The Devils are playing the Rangers in the Garden, which sums up the night in local sports. Talk about whatever you want, but I suspect Andy’s name will come up once or twice.
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I won’t lie. I’ve been crying about this on and off all day. I’ve been a mess. But I tried to put words to paper, so to speak. If any of you are at all interested:
http://dumbshtireadonnyyfans.t.....odbye-post
Very, very good piece.
Bexarama that was great. We are many years apart in age but have similar likes. Both die hard Yankee fans who have watched this team in good and bad times. Had a favorite player on the Yanks who made us love the game. But your hero is a good man who has his priorities in the right place. Mine did not. Both played the game to win and win they did. Andy is ending his career on top. Mickey did not and played about 4 years too long.
Mickey’s in the Hall of Fame which he deserves, stats proof his selection. God knows what he could have accomplished if, only if. Andy may never be selected to the Hall of Fame and I don’t think he cares as long as his family is OK because Andy is a special man. I wish him luck with the next phase of his life and hope he makes some appearances at the big ballpark in the Bronx.
Wow. Very nice piece.
Wow… that was incredibly moving..
I hope somehow Andy gets to read it.. I feel like he should know how much he influenced your love of the game.
I just talked to Andy, he’s coming back!
(I wish)
Absolutely incredibly moving Bex. I wish I had that kind of history watching the Core Four come up. Unfortunately, I found my love for baseball when these guys are on the way out. I’m not sure which is worse.
It’s okay. You’ll be writing this about Betances some day, hopefully. :’)
Great piece of writing Bex. I really envy your ability to convey your passion for the sport, team and players, while at the same time feeling sympathy for your “loss”.
Commiserations from the other side of the world!
Girl I’m a few years older than u but a lot of what u said u felt at different times I feel the same. It was a great read and I will miss seeing 46 on the mound. Ur the type of girl I need to marry. Only 29 jk lol
Bexy and I were at Andy’s last game. Kind of crazy.
I just heard the news recently, I was at school all day.
Needless to say, I’m gonna miss the guy a whole fucking lot. A “Thank you” for what he did for this franchise isn’t even enough, all I can say is best of luck. We’re gonna miss ya bud.
Let’s Go Rangers!
GO DEVILS
Ok Puddy.
wait this one is better
If you want to feel old, I think 15 is older than some commenters here cough cough Carlosologist cough cough.
This sucks that all the players that I grew up with are getting old and retiring. First it was Bernie, now it’s Pettitte, next it’ll be Posada. I guess I’m lucky to have been able to watch all of them in the primes of their careers and I’ll be able to tell my kids or grandkids how it was to watch them, in the same way that our parents and grandparents tell us how it was to watch Joe Dimaggio, Mickey Mantle and Yogi Berra (etc.).
Also, I’m really hoping Andy shows up at Old Timers Day 2011.
I made a Pettitte wallpaper today if anybody would like to use it.
http://i55.tinypic.com/23kvtcp.jpg
Nice i would definitely use this thank u very much (:
Pitcher A in playoffs
40% of starts gave up 1 or fewer runs
Playoff ERA 0.24 lower than regular season
Gave up 5+ earned runs in 14% of playoff starts
3 CG’s
Lost 30% of games in which he gave up 2 ER or less
Allowed 2 ER or less in 66% of starts
Record: 14-16
Pitcher B in playoffs
29% of starts gave up 1 or fewer runs
Playoff ERA 0.05 lower than regular season
Gave up 5+ earned runs in 17% of playoff starts
0 CG’s
Lost 14% of games in which he gave up 2 ER or less
Allowed 2 ER or less in 53% of starts
Record: 19-10
I think we often forget that pitcher wins are a useless stat in the playoffs as well as the regular season. Pitcher A was simply a better postseason pitcher than Pitcher B, but they have much different perceptions in their postseason careers. A is Glavine, B is Pettitte.
But you don’t understand, Pettitte *knew* how to win in the playoffs. Glavine clearly didn’t.
*Disclaimer*
Some or all of the above may or may not have have been serious.
However, I will say that I think Glavine will get vastly overrated because of his win total.
However, I will say that I think Glavine will get vastly overrated because of his win total.
I agree. I think Moose was definitely a better pitcher than Glavine, but will never be remembered that way simply due to win totals.
Just as a quick and dirty comparison
Pettitte: 3055 IP 2251 Ks 117 ERA+ 50.2 bWAR
Glavine: 4413 IP 2607 Ks 118 ERA+ 67 bWAR
Mussina: 3562.2 IP 2813 Ks 123 ERA+ 74.8 bWAR
Moose was freaking good.
damn do I miss Moose… he left us one season too soon
Rarely do I post here, but I read alot and felt the need to today.
I have been very depressed over this today, but I expected it. I will greatly miss seeing Pettitte take the mound. Needless to say, I will be drinking my sorrows away over this one tonight and the rest of the weekend.
1.Sabathia
2.Hughes
3.Burnett(shudder)
4.Nova
5.Garcia?
Woulda looked a whole lot better with Pettitte in there.
yuck… what a shitty bottom 1/2 of the rotation… I still shudder when I see it, and I have bene looking at versions since December
Would have looked alot better with Lee in there but those are the breaks
Whenever I think of Andy Pettitte I immediately think of Game 5 of the 1996 WS.
Although the first time I had that “feeling” as Mike described was in Game 5 of the 1995 ALDS vs Seattle unfortunately lol.
Great, great call. I was 12. First and, I think, last time I turned of a game because the tension was just too high and I couldn’t take it anymore. Definitely had “the feeling” that night.
I went to sleep right before extras and shot out of bed the next morning. I immediately turned on the morning news (no cable) to see the results. My heart sank when the sportscaster didn’t go into “wrap up the highlight” mode after he mentioned our taking the lead in the top of the 11th. The highlight next showed Edgar Martinez–again!!–deliver the dagger. To this day, I am haunted by the image of Ken Griffey Jr.’s huge smile at the bottom of a pile of Mariners. Still hurts. Glad I didn’t watch it live.
All of this, of course, made 1996 even sweeter. And in that run, other than “Hayes…has room…,” no moment was more joyous than watching my favorite player, Paul O’neill, limp his way to catch Louis Polonia’s gapper to close out game five. And that cherished memory was made possible by Dandy Andy’s absolute masterpiece.
Thank you for salving the wounds of ’95, Andy. Thank you for that…and so much more.
#46.
Goddamn. I am crying again.
The worst thing about this is that he’s not going out on a high or leaving the team in a position of strength. He can’t get motivated when he’s really needed and physically feeling good?
Sad that he’s gone, sad about the way he’s going, a whimper not a bang seems hardly fitting.
I’m amazed no one has mentioned the schedule yet which was just released. Yankees start the season at home with a 3 game series against the Tigers(4 game series at home against the Twins right after) and end the season on the road at TB for a 3 game series(3 game home series against BOS right before).
The schedule’s been out for months.
http://riveraveblues.com/2010/.....ber-35346/
This sucks. Just delete that post. Please.
I mean mine. I guess you can delete it for false breaking news.
Re: the signature moment as noted by Axisa.
It was literally a signature moment for me. Pettitte signed a world series commemorative ball for my friend (who then gave the ball to me) as he was getting on the bus to go to Fulton County Stadium and pitch in that game. I still have that ball.
Do you think Antique Roadshow will give it good appraisal value in 10 years?
Reposting this here because have been beating this drum all day and gotten very little response:
2010
#1 CC 5.1 WAR
#2 Hughes 2.4 WAR
#3 Burnett 1.3 WAR
#4 Pettitte – Moseley – Gaudin 1.2 WAR
#5 Nova + Mitre – Javy 0.3 WAR
Total = 10.3 WAR
2010
#1 CC 5.1 WAR
#2 Hughes 2.4 WAR
#3 Burnett 1.3 WAR
#4 Garcia 1.3 WAR
#5 Nova 0.5 WAR (in 42 innings)
Total = 10.6
That was CC’s worst season since 2005 and Burnett’s worst since 2004 (worst healthy season ever). They’re as likely to bounce back as to be in decline (CC is only 30 this season, AJ 34). Hughes could step forward, backward, or sideways. I don’t know. Garcia had a higher WAR, 1.6, in 2009 than 2010, so it’s not his first successful season since 1945 or whatever people are saying. And Nova showed promise in 42 innings. If he manages the same success he’d have 1.8 WAR in 150 innings or 2.4 in 200 innings.
CC and Burnett averaged 6.6 and 3.8 WAR from 06-09, respectively. Burnett is theoretically a decline risk at 34, but less so CC at 30 (though he does have a lot of miles on his arm…).
Best realistic case maybe CC = 6-7 WAR, Burnett = 2.8-3.8 WAR, Hughes = 2.5-3.5 WAR, Nova/#4 = 1-2 WAR, and Garcia/#5 = 0.5-1.5 WAR… So, best case 12.8 to 16.8 WAR or an improvement of 2.5 to 6.5 WAR with no major addition. Mid-season acquisition(s)/call-up(s) could boost or solidify that.
Of course EVERYONE could be injured, but realistically I don’t see worse than maybe 8 WAR from the rotation (even if CC = 0 that’s 1.6 per 5 starters), or only 2.3 below last season. And if everyone gets hurt the Yankees would be screwed pretty much no matter what.
I don’t see much reason to freak out. I think the chances of the rotation being better than last season are about on par with the chances it’s worse. Sox should be better (mostly due to health), but Rays should be at least a bit worse.
The real question Ted is, can the Knicks sweep the Sixers this weekend to solidify their hold on the 6th seed?? lol
You do realize you are being missed at a certain website.
Thanks, BBA. I should get back on there. Now that the Knicks are good there just seems like there’s nothing to talk (bitch) about lol
Trust me, you know there is always something to bitch about lol.
You can add up all the WAR you want but fact is the Yankees were smoked by the Rangers in the playoffs because they did not have enough starting pitching. Now they have less starting pitching than they did a year ago. I think it’s delusional to think the Yanks rotation is better than they were last year when you have no clue what you’re gonna get from 3 of the 5 starters unless Cashman can add a MAJOR pitcher (legitimate number 2 or 3 starter) not some back of the rotation crap that’s been discussed lately.
The Yankees were smoked by the Rangers in the playoffs because Hughes had a bad series for whatever reason (Maybe he was gassed. Maybe he was tipping his pitches. Maybe he was just not good for two starts, it’s happened before.), and they faced Cliff Lee at his best in Game 3.
Out of 6 games, the Yankees only got 2 decent starts (the best of which was Pettite) so it was a lot more than Hughes that went wrong in that series.
A. The Rangers series was the ALCS. First you have to qualify for the playoffs. Let’s not get ahead of ourselves. If they qualify then by the playoffs the Yankees may well have found a legit #2, 3, and 4 either internally or through trade.
B. I think it was more than the starters in the Rangers series. They couldn’t much hit the Rangers pitching and their bullpen had some awful games too. It was just a general failure. They just got beat.
One of the worst starts they got was from CC, and you just don’t expect that to happen much. Lee also struggled in the WS, I’ll still take either CC or Lee in a 2011 postseason start. And Burnett was giving them a nice start until that one HR.
C. I don’t think it’s delusional. Uncertain does not mean bad. Players don’t always fall below expectations. Last season 4 of 5 Yankee starters fell below expectations. That’s doesn’t mean if will happen again.
My point, also, is that expectations for Burnett, Garcia, and maybe Nova should be higher than the pessimistic one ppl are throwing out there. That’s where their historical WARs come in.
D. Last season did you have any idea what starters 2-5 would give you on average? Andy missed 1/3 of the season and was replaced by sub-replacement level guys. Hughes had a lower percentage quality starts than Garcia last season. Burnett? You knew what you were getting more when Nova came up than with Javy. So, not sure how not knowing what you’re getting is worse than last season when you often knew what you were getting: crap.
If you were handed an NFL franchise team and could pick any current QB (at their current age) to start your team, who would you take?
#1) Matt Ryan
#2) Aaron Rogers
I’d probably still take Peyton.
I’ll assume your not serious?
/35 next yr’d
I was gonna tease you and Jimmy McNulty and say Mark Sanchez but: probably Aaron Rodgers. He’s still pretty young and obviously very good. Brady and Peyton are still obviously very good, but they’re getting up there in age. As much as Roesthisberger’s Steelers have won, he doesn’t excite me or stand out as a great QB by his own merits. Now that I’m writing this, I’m not sure where to put Brees and Rivers.
For one year… Vick or Peyton Manning
For the next five years either Ryan or Rodgers
Same question for one WR and HB
Fitzgerald at WR is pretty easy. HB is a much tougher call but I’ll take AP I suppose.
Fitzgerald is not that easy when you have a receiver like Megatron and an up and comer like Mr. Nicks. Lot’s of good wideouts in the NFL now. For HB I would take AP or MJD, prob AP; maybe Priest Holmes (I kid, I kid)
im sorry if im the only one who isnt familliar with this nickname but who is megatron? And please dont say the current bWAR leader of the decepticons..
No big at all… Calvin Johnson… DET WR
IETC
with HB i’d go with chris johnson, but think hard about charles, peterson, and MJD. really no wrong answer there.
at WR i’d go with andre johnson. he is just amazing. i’d think hard about calvin johnson, fitzgerald, jennings, and white.
actually, calvin is only 25, he’s a pretty tempting choice, but i’m still sticking with andre.
I’d go Fitzgerald at WR. RB is tough, first thought is AP, but not sure how long he’s going to be around with the pounding he takes. As good as he’s been the past 2 years, they are declines from his first 2 years. He’s probably still who I’d go with though, but with some trepidation.
Manning by far.
No one seems to notice that the Eagles only scored 10 more points in 2010 than in 2009. Replacing the washed up McNabb with the MVP candidate Vick while allowing most of their key offensive weapons to get a year older and closer to their primes only gave the team a 10 point upgrade in scoring. Perhaps Vick isn’t quite as good as he’s made out to be?
Sam Bradford… Kid is a stud… and Then The Garaji as my defensive player
Personally I’d go with Rodgers or Roethlisberger. They can both succeed with subpar offensive lines and have both thrived playing in cold weather cities which is huge come playoff time. They’re also both young enough to have 5+ years left of their primes. I’d put Rivers just a notch below because I think he needs more help from his O-line and hasn’t had success playing in cold weather (he obviously hasn’t had the opportunity either).
Rodgers and it is not particularly close.
You’re right, and how exactly is it not close? You’re going to tell me in 4 years Bradford won’t be at the point that Rodgers is at now? That’s kind of comical
Where is it a guarantee Bradford becomes the player like Rodgers?
Not saying it’s a guarantee. But he’s not that far away as is and that’s 4 years (their separation in age) of playing experience. I was stating it in the response to the comment of it not being close.
Right now it isn’t when you don’t know how good Bradford will be. Aaron Rodgers is in the top 3r QBs among active QBs. And he’s what 24?
Rodgers is 27.
I kind of agree with this.. I think you take the proven over the upside in the case that you are handed an NFL franchise..
you don’t want to end up with Jay Cutler part 2 at QB
/MJD’d
hahaha you’re insane that’s like saying you can’t guarantee that
and you certainly can’t call that comical
fail
what i meant to say was
“ahahah you’re insane that’s like guaranteeing manban will be johan”
and you certainly can’t call that comical
Rodgers is still young and will be an excellent QB for the next 8 years. Bradford while having a great rookie season has a while to go to catch up to Rodgers and Rodgers is still pretty young for an elite QB.
rodgers
no love for phillip rivers, anyone?
like… just not love.. if you had the choice of any QB i’m going to go with he wouldn’t be in the conversation… Too much talent above him..
I would gladly take him if i was… say… the Redskins right now.
That Josh Freeman is also pretty good.
Rodgers or Rivers. Honorary mention to Josh Freeman.
Aaron frickin Rodgers and it’s not even close. Cheap deal for now and he’s young too.
Easy choice.
Up until the start of the playoffs, you would not have said that it wouldn’t be close. In fact, you probably would have taken Matt Ryan. Same with baseball, you’re judging on a small sample size.
Uhm no. Not at all. First year of starting he passes for 4000 yards with 13 picks. That’s ridiculous. I messed up on his age as he’s 27 but he’s still a monster.
I don’t know how you can argue Bradford can even touch Aaron Rodgers right now.
And to clarify I think Bradford in2 years will be a beats but right now you choose Rodgers all day every day.
I respect your argument and you make a strong case. I just don’t think there is as much of a gap as you’re making it seem. Also I wouldn’t put Rodgers ahead of Brady, Brees, Manning… but he’s def in the top 5 qb’s right now
IMO, the top five QBs are Manning, Brady, Brees, Rodgers, and Rivers. That’s an easy choice for me, too.
ben’s too much of an a-hole, huh?
Nope, he’s just flat-out not as good. Of course I’ll take his rings/Super Bowl appearances, but he’s not those guys.
Look at the weapons Rodgers has the weapons Bradford has. Factor in the age, this was Bradford’s first year. He took a team that should have had one win and kept them in the playoff hunt, granted in a bad division, all year. The kid is a monster. 3500 yards as a first year starter with no O-Line. Name his number one wideout.
I think there’s no doubt Pettitte will get a shout on opening day roll call.
any former players on this board?
MLB or MiLB players? That would be awesome.
I can definitely see some of them reading it – I mean, if I was a player, I’d love to.
If I was a player, I’d probably comment, too. Could you imagine a player with the stature of Derek Jeter being a consistent blog commenter? That would be amazing.
I know, I know…
you know what i think would really be cool? if a mid-level pitching prospect, someone not that special, say nik turley, would come on here on dotf nights when he pitched and explain his start.
Fangraphs think we should trade for Barry Zito…it would be logical if it wasn’t for his outrageous contract.
The Yankees need a legit number 2. They’ll be wild card contenders down to the very last game with the current rotation. But they’ll get eaten up alive during playoff time when it’s CC or Hughes or die. A trade should go after a number 2 guy.
Zito’s being paid like he’s that guy but he definitely is not.
the trade will be for an innings eater, like a Lowe or Maholm… The only other pitchers that will be available will be from Tampa, who won’t be looking to trade intra-division
Sorry, but not thinking Wainright or Cain will be walking through that door in July…
You can’t say much definitively in February about what’s going to happen in July.
(I seriously don’t think Cain will be walking through the door, or Wainwright. Carpenter might be, though. Depends on where the Cardinals are.)
It would be logical if he wouldn’t you know…suck.
I bought this earlier today:
http://store.nike.com/us/en_us.....pid-357819
Nice.
Bad Ass… but I am kinda digging the Ozzie Smith one.
LOLZ @ the Twins one… Johan, really? no love for Kirby?
and oh yeah, dont care who your team is…. this is awesome
http://store.nike.com/us/en_us.....pid-357656
I picked up a straight up legit Reggie jersey at a thrift store for 7 bucks.
Our playoff hopes were hinging on Andy returning. This is another reason why Cashman needs to go. He did not have a plan B. Cashman compared Andy Pettitte’s retirement to Brett Favre’s retirement from the Packers. The difference is that Green Bay has a competent GM that had a backup plan in place. Now they’re one of the youngest teams in the league and in the Superbowl. Their replacement for Favre is one of the best in the league. Cashman’s solution is to sign Bartolo Colon and Freddy Garcia as our 4th and 5th starters. He lost out on Cliff Lee twice with unlimited resources. Cashman needs to go.
Cashman compared Andy Pettitte’s retirement to Brett Favre’s retirement from the Packers.
Nope, that’s not even remotely close to what he said.
But what’s important is what Big Bertha thinks he said. Big Bertha has lots of made up statements to argue against and Big Bertha’s not going to let you rain on Big Bertha’s parade.
What should Cashman have done?
Cash should be praying that the Cuban equivalent of King Felix is on a raft floating towards Miami right now and can be ready to pitch by the All Star break.
DAMN YOU FOR TAKING LESS MONEY TO SIGN WITH THE MARINERS (Braves), FELIX (Teheran)!!!!!
What’s slightly terrifying to me is that Joe Beningo is a voice of reason for Yankees fans who call up saying the Yankees should trade for Felix. Joe Beningo!
Signed Melky and traded him and Wordkemper for Felix. Think about the money Seattle would save.
I made it all the way to Plan B and gave up.
this isn’t remotely sane.
Your posts are as insightful as ever. Kudos on the continued path to batshit insanity.
Level-headed as always, ya big jamoke.
Among the other things people have pointed out, Favre retired from the Vikings not the Packers. Favre left Green Bay after 2007, and they’re in the Super Bowl after the 2010 season… The comparison would be if the Yankees were in the World Series in 2013.
Homer Simpson: Awww … 20 dollars!? I wanted a peanut.
Homer’s brain: 20 dollars can buy many peanuts!
Homer Simpson: Explain how.
Homer’s brain: Money can be exchanged for goods and services.
Homer Simpson: Woo hoo!
Thanks Andy Pettitte for all the great moments and contributions to the Yankee organizations. You will be miss no doubt.
For what its worth, I am glad he is at least leaving at the top of his game and not limping himself out onto the mound every 5th game (looking at you, Rocket)…
coughBrettFavreCalRipkencough
I still think Andy will turn up in George’s bawx come May.
I made a graphic. Use it as you see fit.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/4.....otostream/
I hate to say it but 2011 may end up being a transition year which I thought was unthinkable for a team with a $200+ million dollar payroll.
The free agent market next year sucks.
The Yanks almost definitely have to part with at least one of their upper tier prospects now that Andy is gone. I mean Montero, Betances, Banuelos, Brackman and Sanchez by upper tier. If Pettitte came back they could’ve gone into the season with their current rotation and maybe try to add to it using the Warren and Phelps of the world if they wanted to. Sucks..
Hey Brian, Theo is laughing at you right now!!!!!!
The Red Sox have the same number of playoff wins as the Pirates over the last two years. Theo shouldn’t be laughing at anything.
Maybe so but we’re primed to win our 3rd world championship in 7 years while the Yankees have been reduced to throwing shit up against the wall (Garcia and Colon) and hope something sticks.
The Red Sox were primed for a title last year too. You shouldn’t get too far ahead of yourself.
Enjoy it now, because Papelbon’s going to fuck it up later.
You’re not gonna get off that easy with Bard and Jenks on board. Paps won’t get the chance to fuck things up this time around.
I can’t wait to see what A-gon, Youkalis, Pedroia and Crawford are going to do to Colon, Garcia and Mitre.
Can’t even spell your best player’s name right…
I spelled A-gon right.
I can also do some math: 3rd place=out of the playoffs for the yankees.
How about some economics:200 million can’t buy a playoff ticket in yankee stadium this year.
I’m pretty sure $200 million could buy an awful lot of playoff tickets at Yankee Stadium. Perchance, all of them.
It won’t this year my friend. All it’s gonna buy is some extra rounds of golf come october.
Hey, I’m not your friend, buddy.
My bad buddy.
I know you spelled A-gon right. I said your best player.
I know I spelled Youkilis wrong but our best player now is clearly A-gon. Can’t wait till he reaches the upper deck in yankee stadium for the first (of many) times.
You do know that Gonzalez just had shoulder surgery, right?
Labrum repair on his non throwing shoulder? Not worried in the least.
Do you even know what labrum surgery does to a position player? It saps their power. Sure he can still play, but it’ll be at a reduced level.
Wishful thinking on your part. Theo would have never made the trade if it wasn’t a slam dunk he’d be 100% healthy. You should be worried about A rods hip and Teixeira’s hamstring and gardners wrist.
Yankee injuries = PANICWHOAAAAMG
Red Sox injuries = lol whatevs they’ll be fine
(For the record, the only one I’m even kind of expecting to affect anything is A-Rod’s hip, and even there, eh.)
Yeah I’m not worried about Adrian’s shoulder being cut open a few months ago but DAMN DID YOU HEAR TEX PULLED HIS HAMSTRING?
I’d like to see Gonzalez, Youkilis, Pedroia and Crawford try and get a hit off Soriano and Joba, who were better (2.81 FIP and 2.98 FIP respectively) than Bard and Jenks (3.37 FIP and 2.59 FIP respectively). Papelbon is still going to fuck things up, you can’t run away from that fact.
I also can’t wait to see what Teixeira, A-Rod, Cano, and Swisher do to Matsuzaka, Lackey, Beckett, and Buchholz. Buchholz may have had the shiny ERA, but he’s gonna have a hard crash back to reality in 2011. Beckett isn’t going to be as bad as he was last season, but he’s an injury risk. Lackey is also an injury risk and he’s not going to be a lot better than league average. Dice-K is terrible no matter which way you slice it.
So before you come into our place and insult us, realize that your situation is much worse than ours. We have two front-line guys in CC and Hughes. Burnett can and will bounce back, though he’s as much of an injury risk as Beckett. Nova is unproven, and that combo of Mitre/Colon/Garcia has the possibility to be league average. It won’t be pretty, but it’ll get the job done until we go over the top and get ourselves a starter. The Yanks actually go and use their financial might. All the Red Sox do is sit on their hands and complain that they are a small market team.
What??? No GM in baseball would trade the Red Sox roster for the yankees today. Starting pitching is what wins and yours pretty much starts and ends with Sabathia.
Your starting pitching starts and ends with Lester. He’s the only one on that roster that can be counted on for a full season. Everyone else is either old, hurt, or unproven.
Our starting pitching starts with Sabathia and Hughes. Sabathia is Sabathia, Hughes has the potential to be a solid number two guy for the next few years. He started to go the right way last season. 2011 will be his breakthrough.
I’m not being a homer here, but if I were a GM, I’d trade for the Yanks roster over the Red Sox roster in a heartbeat. The outfield is younger and produces for less than the price of your left fielder. The infield is easily the best in baseball. Teixeira is better than Gonzalez. He can actually hit left-handed pitching. Cano is miles ahead of Pedroia. Cano can actually stay on the field. Jeter and Scutaro are a wash, I’ll give you that. A-Rod is still better than Youk, even as he enters his decline phase. Martin and Montero are better than Varitek and Saltalamachhia. I already ripped into your starting pitching.
Meh. I’d say the Red Sox are absolutely better than the Yankees right now. Fortunately, October is a long way off, and a lot can happen before then.
You are DELUSIONAL. Lester, Buchholz, Beckett, Lackey and Dice K shits all over your starting rotation and is the best in baseball behind only Phillie and San Fran. Yankees aren’t even in the top 10.
Hah, how’s Beckett’s back and Dice-K’s whatever? Let’s see Buchholz keep up the magic act with no strikeouts.
Tampa’s rotation is better, so is the White Sox’s.
That sounds weird … White Sox’s.
Lester = elite.
Buchholz = good but not as good as his basic numbers indicated last season.
Beckett = Burnett-esque wild card.
Lackey = average innings eater.
Dice-K = horriawful.
That’s not exactly the ’98 Braves.
Maybe so but at least our 4th and 5th starters aren’t whoever sucks the least out of garcia, colon, mitre, prior and nova. That’s more comparable to the royals or indians rotation than it is to the Red Sox.
Pretty sure Nova’s like the ace of the Royals.
And yours ends after Lester. Beckett is just as inconsistent as Burnett, Lackey hasn’t been good in 2 yrs, and Dice-K…..at least Dice-K has the 20 minute long windup/swivel hips thing.
Bullpen wise, your seriously going to try to compare the Greatest Reliever to ever and will ever walk this earth with the river dancing douchebag Papelbon. That is an easy decision so is the Soriano and Jenks (hint it isn’t Jenks) and Bard is without a doubt but little Houdini can be just as vicious.
Our back-end aren’t household names but if you start doubting the yankee’s and what they are capable of your in for a rude awakening.
The sox have pulled an admirable “evil empire” impression…but the The Yankees are Pure Evil and that doesn’t die, it gets stronger.
Hughes isn’t a front-line guy – at least not yet.
Championships are clearly won in February. If that were true, then the Yanks have won 14 straight titles.
Can’t wait til you’re real quiet in October, I guess
I hope you stick around.
A troll. How original. You’re cool, dude.
It’s that time of year, what can you do.
Does Cashman listen and weigh the possibilities if he gets a call from Kenny Williams in which:
Yanks get JAKE PEAVY (plus full salary commitment)
White Sox get Nova, David Adams, and one B-level pitching prospect (Stoneburner or DJ Mitchell or JoRam)
Peavy might miss the first month of the season but the progress reports are positive so he might make end up missing fewer games than usual. The White Sox could then transition Chris Sale back to the rotation or place Nova at the 5 spot while freeing up so serious money.
By full salary commitment I mean the Yanks don’t get any salary RELIEF from the White Sox.
You’re giving up more than the White Sox gave up for Peavy in the first place.
understood. but i’m trying to account for the disparity in leverage here. kenny williams should trade Peavy if it means he can extend some of the youngsters , but that doesn’t mean Kenny won’t try to gouge us alittle.
My hypothetical package ain’t that bad.
“My hypothetical package ain’t that bad” = sounds wrong. this is why i miss the edit button.
I might give that up for Floyd and definitely for Danks, but no other starter on that team (i.e. Jackson or Peavy).
I’d only consider a deal at midseason if/when:
A) Peavy is effective
B) Peavy proves he is completely healthy (even though the injury he had was kind of a freak injury)
He’s also owed 25M over the next season and a half, so it will have to be a straight salary dump with a couple of C prospects thrown in.
I’m fine with this approach. However, a healthy, effective Peavy, even in a straight salary dump, would likely cost us more than a couple of C-level prospects.
That my hypothetical proposal doesnt sound crazy right now (to me) reflects my state of worry for the rotation at this moment.
“That my hypothetical proposal doesnt sound crazy right now (to me) reflects my state of worry for the rotation at this moment.”
It’s a weakness, but I would not be in a “state of worry.” Javy contributed -0.2 WAR to last season’s team, he was below replacement level. Gaudin and Moseley combined for -1.1 WAR. Andy had +2.3 WAR. That’s a net of +1 WAR lost from last season. Given that CC and AJ had career worst type seasons in 2010, I really would not expect the rotation to fall off much from last season. Just with what’s in house, not even considering trades.
The craziest thing about your trade proposal, in my opinion, is that the White Sox would go for it. They’re spending money left and right trying to compete. Are they suddenly going to dump a top-of-the-rotation starter for peanuts because they get cheap?
If the Sox were pinching pennies I’m not sure they would have signed Konerko, Dunn, and Cain this offseason. Plus they have both Buehrle, Pierre, and Jackson coming off the books, freeing up $30.85 mill annually. Then $28.5 mill coming off the book after 2012 between Peavy, Teahan, and Pierzynski. They’re a big market team. I wouldn’t assume based on all this that they’re desperate for a salary dump.
On the other hand, their farm system is pretty awful. They might use some of those expiring guys to restock on cheap young players if out of contention or Sale is starting, that I could buy.
I’ll pass on Peavy. The guy hasn’t been healthy in 2 years and he didn’t exactly light up the AL last year when he did pitch.
We’re keeping all three killa-Bs and Montero and Sanchez … the cream of the farm stays intact.
Peavy likely pitched hurt over a small stretch last season . I still like the peripherals. Peavy’s recent injuries are irksome, but hey,if his star hadn’t waned he likely wouldnt be available. I honestly think he’s available, ESPECIALLY if the Yanks are willing to take on all the money.
I actually like Peavy. He won’t be 30 till May and was pitching at an elite level not too long ago. Also his injury is to his lat (upper back) and not his shoulder or elbow. He’s due $37M over the next 2 years or $18.5M average per year when you include his $4M buyout for 2013. I would think you wouldn’t have to give anything of significance if you’re picking up all the money. I think it’s quite possible the White Sox would even subsidize his contract to unload it. You can wait to see if he’s healthy/effective but the price then goes up.
Listen, there aren’t any great options. I think Peavy is a decent one.
Again, why are the Sox desperate for money?
-They play in a huge market.
-They just went out and spent tons of cash this offseason.
-They have 3 contracts for $30.85 mill coming off the books after 2011 and $28.5 mill after 2012.
-They’ve trying to contend, and apparently the plan involves dong so with a very expensive rotation since they keep bring in expensive starters.
-They have perfect timing in terms of Denks and Floyd hitting free agency after Buerhle and Peavy are off the books.
What part of that screams “we want to dump a top-of-the-rotation starter?”
Why are the Sox desperate for money?
I’ll bet the owners of the Hokkaido Nippon-Ham Fighters wish they could post Yu Darvish tonight. Cashman would probably throw in his right kidney and part of his liver to close the deal.
At this point I wouldn’t mind seeing Darvish in pinstripes.
Wouldn’t mind? I think i’d do naked cartwheels down my street if they landed darvish right about now.
The Angels are looking for a lead off hitter http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c.....index.html
I wonder if we can match up with them using Brett Gardner. Gardner and Burnett for Haren..
why would they want Burnett?
Why would they want Vernon Wells?
Just saying that if they’re truly looking for a lead off hitter the Yanks should engage them using BG as bait. I sure they have.
Gardner not only faded in the 2nd half but he’s coming off wrist surgery. I don’t think the Angels would trade a Juggs machine for him at this point let alone Dan Haren.
I think you’re wrong about that. Gardner has a lot of value.
I agree Gardner has value, but Burnett has negative value.
First we have to assume that the Angels FO likes Gardner. Second, they obviously want to contend this year by trading for Wells, and they won’t be doing that by trading away top of the rotation pitchers. For them, Kazmir and Pineiro, possibly Santana are on the trading block. Of those guys, only Santana would be worth a trade for Gardner. The Angels would probably want a top pitching prospect along with Gardner and a throw in prospect for Santana, which I’m not sure about.
The same team that took on Vernon Wells’ money wouldn’t trade a Juggs machine for a 5-fWAR left fielder? Their loss.
Thing is I don’t think too many people are convinced gardner can be a 5 WAR left fielder again, me included. KLaw, whose opinion I really respect sure doesn’t. I hope I’m wrong.
I’ll be surprised if he’s 5 WAR again. Defense fluctuates year to year like everything else, and so much of his value is tied up in his glove. Last year was basically the best case scenario on both sides of the ball.
Yeah I hate to say it but I have a bad feeling that the yankees are going to end up having to look for an upgrade in left field for 2012.
I think he’ll walk as often which will keep his OBP high and if he can ever become a good bunter he might post a .400 OBP. Without looking at his hit charts Gardner seems to inside out a lot of balls to the short stop hole. If he becomes a legit bunt threat the opposing 3rd baseman is going to have to play a few steps in for him, opening up that hole. So the bunts will help him in two ways really.
I don’t expect 5 fWAR going forward. However, that doesn’t mean Gardner can’t be a legit starter.
Exhibit A: Franklin Gutierrez was a slightly above-average hitter in 2009 and a godly fielder, which begat a 6.1 fWAR. He took pretty big dips both offensively and defensively last season, but was still a decent contributor (2.3 fWAR). The same might happen with Gardner.
Ultimately, Gardner is a good, cheap player who can get on base, steal bases, and play defense. There’s value to his game even if he’s not a 5-fWAR guy in the future.
The bad 2nd half (still got on base at a great clip) came because of the wrist injury early in the 2nd half.
It’s gonna take a lot more than that to land Haren.
Like Joe Saunders and a couple of struggling 19 year olds maybe?
I don’t see them wanting Burnett, but considering they were going to give Crawford 100+ million, I can definitely see them having an interest in Gardner, who is a Crawford-lite type of player. At this point though, with Wells, I don’t see them being interested any longer though, especially since they think Wells can still play CF.
it is pretty cool that Andy, Po, Mo and Jeter will retire in order like that. Everyone gets their own Farewell
I can now look forward to the impending battle of the wash-outs: Colon v Garcia v Prior v Mitre …
Spring Training 2011! Can’t. WAIT. wait…
They can promote the battle as the “Toilet Bowl.” I can hear Liev Schreiber saying “See which turd can crawl back out of the toilet first.”
Or it could be “Rise of the New Evil” with Brackman, Noesi, and Phelps
It’s gonna take a lot more than that to land Haren.
i will miss you andy. a good guy and a real good pitcher. borderline HOF but a very good pitcher who had a very good career.
the windbag HOF voters are mainly windbags and have no clue.
I really believe the main driver behind this is the Clemens trial this summer in which he is the prosecution’s main witness. I don’t think he feels that he could handle the stress of pitching while that trial is going on. Otherwise, I think he would be coming back to pitch this season. By the way, I hope Clemens is found guilty and that he ends up in prison where he belongs.