Mar
17

Ivan Nova’s New Toy

By

Slider! (AP Photo)

It’s only Spring Training, but we were treated to a pitching gem last night. Ivan Nova, the youngest member of the fourth/fifth starter’s competition, threw six hitless innings against the Orioles, allowing only two baserunners (one hit-by-pitch, one error). Eleven of the 14 balls put in play off of him were grounders, and four other outs came on strike three. Nova threw just 59 pitches (41 strikes), so he had to head to the bullpen to throw another 15 after leaving the game just to reach his pitch limit.

After the game, Nova told Marc Carig that he’s working on a new pitch at the behest of pitching coordinator Billy Connors, a pitch he broke out last night. “My slider is like a new toy,” said the right-hander. “I have to start playing with it some time, not too much, but I feel comfortable with all my pitches.” Connors and Nova were originally trying to add a cutter, but the ball just kept moving too much. So they kept it, called it a slider, and here we are. Three of Nova’s four strikeouts came on the pitch, and as you’d expect, he’s going to keep using it in the future.

Nova’s scouting report has been the same basically his entire career. He’s a fastball-curveball-changeup guy, usually sitting 92-94 with the heat (though last year we saw some unexpected 97′s). Although the two offspeed pitches are solid offerings, neither is a legit swing-and-miss pitch right now, which is why his ceiling has always been limited to that of a back-end starter. Adding a put-away pitch in the form of that cutter/slider would be a major development for Nova, boosting his stock and future projection a great deal. Having a go-to pitch is a surprisingly rare luxury.

Although he says he’s going to focus on the changeup next time out, it’ll be interesting to see if the pitch takes a backseat to this new slider. It wouldn’t be ideal, but if Nova has to sacrifice one solid pitch for one above-average pitch, then so be it. You make that trade every day of the week. Joe did some quick research last night and found a few pitchers that rely on both a slider and curveball (at least 12% of the time each) but not a changeup (less than 10%), and came up with a nice mix: Brett Myers, Gavin Floyd, Tommy Hanson, and both Cardinals’ aces, Adam Wainwright and Chris Carpenter. That doesn’t tell us anything about Nova of course, but it gives us some examples of pitchers that survive (and thrive) with two breaking balls and a nascent changeup.

“Working on a new pitch” is the pitcher’s equivalent of “the best shape of his life,” so take this report of Nova’s slider with a grain of salt. That doesn’t mean it’s not worth paying attention to though, so definitely keep an eye on if/when/how he uses the pitch during what should be his final two Spring Training outings.

Categories : Pitching
  • brazilian fan

    how it will be called? the slutter?

    • YankeesJunkie

      +1

    • Henry

      The slut fastball

    • Mister Delaware

      Papelbon, of all people, has already handled that joke.

      • Guest

        RIP “Slutter”

        Born: March 17, 2011 9:36 AM
        Died: March 17, 2011 10:16 AM

    • http://dontbringinthelefty.blogspot.com Lucas Apostoleris

      PITCHf/x folks actually love to use the term “slutter.” It’s great for those pitches that are on the borderline.

      • MannyGeee

        or those pitches that would would NOT bring home to Mom… but Dad would understand.

        • http://dontbringinthelefty.blogspot.com Lucas Apostoleris

          You get the idea.

  • YankeesJunkie

    It is just nice to see that Nova is trying to improve on his performance last year. Nova has the potential to give the Yankees 30 starts at 4.5 FIP/ERA which would at this point be perfect in the back end of the rotation.

    The other thing that I heard from yesterday that I found interesting is if Nova’s problem through the third time through the order were mechanical or as some of the coaches thought more mental. Nova is never going to be an ace or a #2, but if he can improve when facing a batter for the third or fourth time he will be very valuable at eating innings from the #4 or #5 spot.

  • A.D.

    “Working on a new pitch” is the pitcher’s equivalent of “the best shape of his life,”

    Well at least he’s gone from working to implementing in ST, hopefully it doesn’t go the way of Hughes’ change from last year

  • http://twitter.com/cephster Ross in Jersey

    That Nova, he’s a baseball player. His new pitch is in the best shape of it’s life.

    • Mike HC

      haha

  • Adam

    It’s been great to see Nova have a solid spring, I’ve seen him pitch a few times this month and there’s little to not like about him from his smooth delivery to his powerful frame to withstand the rigors of 200 innings. That said, I’m still very worried about his ability to become a competent back-end starter judging by his rather middling minor league numbers. Hopefully this slider is real and because the out pitch that has been lacking from his arsenal, but until he can prove he can strike out guys at a reasonable rate I’m going to remain skeptical.

    • YankeesJunkie

      A 3.54 FIP in AAA is not terrible to say the least. Nova is not going to be like a top prospect such as Betances or Banuelos who can throw FIPs in the minors sub 3. Nova is a back end starter in the AL East and as long as he stays healthy some club will want to use him as a starter. At worse he has shown to be a good middle/long reliever as a floor, if that does not make him valuable to the Yankees there are 20 other teams that would take him fairly easily.

      • Ted Nelson

        That was one season, though, and the second best FIP of his minor league career. Certainly it’s nice for a guy to have a breakout season in AAA, but that doesn’t mean it’s sustainable. Nova has a chance to be a good MLB starter, but he also has a chance to be a AAAA player.

        But, yeah, I think Adam is overreacting by saying he’s “very worried” and overemphasizing Ks. You can be a “competent back-end starter” without striking many people out.

        • Adam

          Perhaps “very worried” was overkill, but the fact of the matter is strikeout and walk ratios are the best indication of future performance and at best Nova’s numbers in this regard are middling, around 1.5 K/BB. Of course, not every pitcher will strike out a ton, and its possible that Nova can be successful while only striking out five or so per nine, but the odds are against him unless he can post abnormally high ground ball ratios which as of yet he hasn’t really.

          • Ted Nelson

            The odds are against every back-end prospect… You’re just stating the obvious. No one is calling Nova Captain Amazing. The point of the article is that he still has room for improvement at 24 and his last start was encouraging in that he displayed a new pitch that was very effective.

      • AndrewYF

        Don’t you know only stats below AA and AAA count? Nova was terrible before he got to the upper minors. Since AA and AAA don’t count, we can only conclude that he will be terrible in the majors.

        /UYW

        • Adam

          Being skeptical and “knowing someone will be terrible” are entirely different things. My issue was exclusively his AAA stats and only in the past year did Nova have strikeout rates above seven, and I’m skeptical that he can sustain those numbers because they are out of line from the rest of his career. As I said earlier I think Nova has a lot going for him, and I hope he can build on his productive spring, but there isn’t a lot of certainty in future success for him based on the entirety of his minor league numbers.

          • pete

            he was making a joke about a commenter who seemed to find the notion of starting Banuelos in the minors this year morally offensive.

    • Adam

      Fair enough, Nova did have a pretty solid year in AAA last year, and in truth if he can replicate those numbers he’ll be a fine back end of the rotation guy, however I’m concerned that those numbers are bolstered by fluky strikeout numbers for him. Prior to to that year his strikeouts were closer to 6 per nine while he was walking around 3 per nine, and I wondering that those numbers are a better indication of his true talent. Additionally, Nova’s inability last season to get batters out after they had seen him once or twice is troublesome and the lack of a true out pitch makes me think those troubles will continue.

      • Ted Nelson

        I think you have every right to be skeptical (as with any prospect in general, especially a borderline rotation prospect with an up-and-down MiLB record) and point to his pre-2010 numbers. This whole article is about how he may be in the process of developing an out pitch, though. He’s only 24 years old, so I wouldn’t act like he can’t get better.

        I also think the 3rd time through the rotation thing is exaggerated. Few young pitchers on their first MLB assignment go deep into games. The ones who do are not back-end prospects most of the time. When you’re talking about a guy whose ceiling may be back-end or #3 starter… you’re not talking about CC Sabathia or Felix.

        • Ted Nelson

          Basically, looking at a guy whose likely ceiling is back-end starter and saying that he might not be a competent starter is stating the obvious.

        • Adam

          I agree, Nova is still young and has an opportunity to develop still, especially by adding a pitch that could help himself improve on those numbers. I guess what I’m trying to say is i’m impressed by what I’ve seen from him this spring thus far, I’m just not totally buying that he’s going to make it yet

  • Stuckey

    Mike, should Ivan Nova begin the year in AAA?

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike Axisa

      I think so. Someone else in the thread mentioned using him in the 2009 Phil Hughes role and I like the idea.

      • pete

        that would certainly help him work on an out pitch

    • Johnny O

      I think he should just because it gives the team more flexibility. Nova can start in AAA and be brought up, while if Garcia and Colon don’t break camp in MLB then they’re gone. Nova could work on his secondary pitches and also save some innings. That way, when he does get called up and perform well he’s a lot less likely to be fatigued come September/October.

  • Ivan Nova’s Agent

    Phil who?

    • YankeesJunkie

      Actually it is Phil whose.

      • pete

        i thought it was phil use?

  • Mike HC

    I have somehow got it in my head that Nova is going to be the next Cano. Decent prospect, almost no hype, and ends up being far better than anyone expected. I think I got this idea around the time one of the coaches made a comment that, last year for the major league team, Nova was pitching in uncharted innings for him. I’m probably delusional, but who knows.

    • YankeesJunkie

      That is an interesting comparison, but he does not have that one pitch that makes batters miss the barrel often enough. Chien Ming Wang was a middling (top 10 prospect) like Cano, but Wang even without that K pitch had one amazing sinker. Nova does not have that one pitch as his fastball is quite straight and his secondary stuff is average at best.

      Speaking of Wang, that first where he went 7 innings against Toronto made me instantly fall in love with him.

      • pete

        also, Wang had a good slider, and his sinker generally sat 93-95. Nova can get his 4-seamer up there, but his sinker’s generally in the 91 range, which is more typical.

        • YankeesJunkie

          Wang had an okay slider, but it was never a strike out pitch, especially at first, considering his sub 4 K/9 the first two years in the majors. It was not until 07-08 where is became an above average pitch and even then he only used it less than 20% of the time.

          • pete

            true true. Still, his sinker was miles ahead of where Nova’s is.

      • Mike HC

        Oh yea, loved Wang. When he was on, he has a pleasure to watch go through a lineup. Will always be a fan of his, hopes he gets health.

        • YankeesJunkie

          My favorite part is Wang is the only pitcher I know that would consistently go 7 innings and only 90 pitches. The efficiency and the double plays he generated were amazing. Not to mention all the wins he got (I know! Not all credit goes to him). Between 2006-2008 Wang was probably my favorite pitcher right up there with Mo. I am just glad he got a ring for 2009 from the Yanks.

          • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike Axisa

            Yeah, you could tell what kind of night it was going to be by the number of pitches Wang threw in the first inning. Twelve or less, he was on. Anything more, and it was going to be an iffy night.

            • YankeesJunkie

              That sounds right. Any person who was into stats would be appalled, but I was just so captured even though I love stats.

      • MannyGeee

        Nova does not have that one pitch as his fastball is quite straight and his secondary stuff is average at best.

        ummmm the aforementioned slutter?

  • Rey22

    Before last night’s game, I was all for Colon and Garcia in the rotation and Nova in the minors, but after that performance, I think he deserves a shot.

    • Big Apple

      its a positive for sure, but its also just one start. If Garcia doesn’t improve off his last start I can see nova getting the 5th spot.

      • Louis

        And colon in the rotation? I think Garcia is a virtual lock.

        • Big Apple

          coin flip…

      • Ted Nelson

        It was also only one start with Garcia, and another would still only be two… Since last season Garcia had the best MLB season that either of the other two have had since 2005, I’d be careful making him the sacrificial lamb. He’s a notoriously poor ST performer. Mitre hasn’t allowed a run in ST, but that doesn’t mean he should be the opening day starter.

        • Big Apple

          which mediocre pitcher is better than the others? so much talk about the #4 and #5 spots….hopefully #1s-#3 perform as expected so we don’t have to count on these guys.

          • Ted Nelson

            It’s still an important question that could have a big impact on the season. That no one is sure which is better is why so many people advocate the depth approach of keeping the vets and starting Nova in AAA.

            • Big Apple

              true…IMO i think you start with Colon and Garcia and keep nova in AAA. Then, once Colon blows up bring up Nova or find another mediocre pitcher…lord knows there are plenty of them.

              • Stuckey

                So let’s give the ball to someone we fully expect to blow up…

                Solid reasoning there.

                • Big Apple

                  the general consensus on colon is that they yanks could get 10-12 starts out of him…that would be great.

                  All of the guys vying for the 4th and 5th spots have an equal chance of blowing up. Why not start the season with 2 that have more experiences and then go to plan B in June.

                • CountZero

                  I’m with you on this — I don’t get that logic at all. “Let’s start with these guys even though we think they will suck because otherwise we have to cut them and then we’ll never have a chance to let them suck in games later.”

                  If you think Colon and / or Garcia can potentially be acceptable as the 4th or 5th starter, then by all means. But throwing them out there when you fully expect them to get rocked into retirement just because you won’t be able to do it later doesn’t make a whole lot of sense?

                  If you really think one or both will be cut by May 1st, then Nova should take one of those slots as he at least has a chance of being a capable #5. It’s not like a situation where you are delaying the start of the option clock.

                  I’m actually undecided right now on Garcia — need to see him a couple more times. But if he shows me another outing like the last, I cut him and go with Nova.

                  • Big Apple

                    young guys, like Nova rarely are effective for a full season..groom him a bit more and he’ll be ready to step into the role in June.

                    By keeping colon and garcia in the rotation, the yanks have more options b/c they can go to Nova, mitre, et al.

                    Conversely, if they start with Nova, they may cut colon/garcia and then they would have to find a replacement if Nova falters.

                  • Ted Nelson

                    It’s not just about depth. It’s about quality and depth. If Nova is a clearly better option, most people would agree to give him the job. No one was arguing to option Phil Hughes to keep Daniel Turpen around.

                    “If you really think one or both will be cut by May 1st, then Nova should take one of those slots as he at least has a chance of being a capable #5.”

                    A. Both Colon and Garcia are capable of being a #5 or better.
                    B. Nova is also capable of blowing up before May 1.

                    “I’m actually undecided right now on Garcia — need to see him a couple more times.”

                    Look at his game log from last season. You shouldn’t base too much on ST. Gracia was notoriously bad in ST even when he was a good #2 starter. If those teams had cut him for some mediocre prospect based on a couple of ST outings it would have been a big mistake.

                    • Big Apple

                      good post….i don’t know what it is, but it seems that this ST is being looked at more seriously than others…not just the yanks either.

                      pitchers and hitters are using this time to get in game shape, and specific things. A bad start does not mean a guy has lost it and a great start doesn’t mean a guy has everyhting figured out.

                      you have to trust that the Joe G and the yankee brass know what they are doing.

  • vin

    Nice job, Nova. Enjoy Scranton this April. I’ll feel more confident with with him playing the Phil Hughes role from ’09.

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike Axisa

      Bingo.

    • YankeesJunkie

      That would be best case scenario. Colon has done exceptionally well and at least deserves a couple starts before getting cut.

      • Stuckey

        I hope Kei Igawa’s family is safe and secure and he can get back to the states asap so we can give him a few starts before we expect him to fail so Ivan Nova can continue to best serve the NY Yankees by pitching meaningful inning for Scranton.

        • YankeesJunkie

          Colon=/=Igawa. These are two different pitchers in styles and backgrounds. Colon has pitched well this spring training and has shown both good FB and off speed stuff. Colon proving himself at the MLB level alone gives him more credibly than Igawa ever had.

      • MannyGeee

        Colon has done exceptionally well considering he is extremely out of shape and has not played organized baseball in 3 years and at least deserves a couple starts before getting cut.

        fixed.

        but seriously, he has not been a complete abortion, but we ALLLLL KNOW how this fairy tale ends. Colon is not Paedro Martinez, who could live on control and being a ‘wily pitching savant’…

        he lived on being a power pitcher when he was in his prime, and now is older out of shape and trying to put it together with whats left…

    • Stuckey

      Does Felix Hernandz have options left? Maybe we can spring a trade for him and put him down in Scranton to play the “Phil Hughes” role”.

      And no, I’m not comparing Nova to Felix, I’m mocking the logic through hyperbole.

      If he’s one of your 5 best starters you take him.

      No more or less simple that that.

      Though I give Mike and anyone else legit props for sticking by their logical fallacy after last evening.

      Would have been more disappointed to see flip-flopping this morning.

      • YankeesJunkie

        Considering it is the beginning of the season it is not necessarily having your five best starters out there. At this point Nova, Garcia, and Colon are probably close enough to call it even as a starting pitcher. Nova is the odd man out. However, pitchers get hurt or suck so when either one happens Nova will be up. Having Nova is the minors to start the season gives the Yankees more viable starters and a greater chance for success. There is no logical fallacy for the long run.

        • Stuckey

          “it is not necessarily having your five best starters out there.”

          “There is no logical fallacy for the long run.”

          I disagree.

          • YankeesJunkie

            Well, what if Banuelos was one of the best five starters. Should he be in the majors at this point? What is best for the Yankees at the beginning of the season is different than the end. Right now the Yankees need the max in available starting pitchers than can give them results to win games. I believe Colon and Garcia can both do that at least for now. It would be wasteful to cut one of them right now to see one of the starting five get hurt and call up Noesi or Brackman who are behind these three. If this were August or September in a close pennant race I would agree, but at this point with the almost certainty of injury I cannot.

            • Stuckey

              Nova is not Banuelos. There are no overriding factors (age, experience, lack of innings) dictating the circumstances.

              “Right now the Yankees need the max in available starting pitchers than can give them results to win games.”

              Then they should be on the phone bringing in more reclamation projects and/or making trades for middling vets.

              “Depth” is a broad concept. The “6″ is the exact correct number to address the “depth” criteria makes little sense to me.

              • YankeesJunkie

                Okay then Nova>any other pitcher in the Yanks system at #6. Colon or Garcia is only slightly less than Nova at #5 and once you get rid of Colon and Garcia you can’t get them back.

              • Ted Nelson

                It’s not purely depth… It’s about quality and depth. If Nova is clearly a better option than Colon, I’m sure the Yankees will go with the better option. The Yankees have offered Millwood a MiLB deal. Signing a MiLB contract and giving up assets in a trade are two totally different animals. You’re obsession with picking apart the depth argument without even understanding its nuances astounds me.

                • Stuckey

                  There is no “nuance” to the “depth” argument.

                  You speaking more highly of the argument that warranted.

                  You just don’t seem to comprehend disagreement to its simple premise, if you want to go down that road.

                  • Ted Nelson

                    There are tons of nuances.

                    Mostly, that no one knows whether to expect Colon, Garcia, or Nova to have the better 2011 season… or even more importantly who to expect to have a better start to the season. If we did, we’d know who should get the spots. Since we don’t, it makes sense to keep all 3 around. Give Garcia and Colon their shots at the MLB level, and Nova his shot in AAA. Ivan Nova will not simply disappear from the FO’s radar because he’s in AAA… if he’s dominating down there and improving in the ways they want him to he WILL get another chance at some point.

                    You are not disagreeing with anything anyone is saying. You are arguing against points people are not making. People are not saying “Nova is clearly better, so let’s start Garcia and Colon instead.” Yet that’s the point you’re arguing against.

                    If you disagree that Nova is not clearly better… make that case. You have not been. You’ve been going on, and on, and on, and on, and on about general organizational strategy in terms of not playing worse vets over better young players and promoting every good prospect.

                    • Stuckey

                      “If you disagree that Nova is not clearly better… make that case. You have not been.”

                      I have.

                      2010.

                      “You’ve been going on, and on, and on, and on, and on about general organizational strategy in terms of not playing worse vets over better young players and promoting every good prospect.”

                      If by “on and on and on and on” you mean one post, then yes. I have been going on an on and on and on.

                      I think you’re starting to get confused.

                    • Ted Nelson

                      “I have.
                      2010.”

                      No. You have not. His ERA in a very small sample in 2010 was 4.9. He could be better than that small sample, but he could easily be worse. If you’re worse than an ERA of 5 you are not a MLB starter.

                    • Ted Nelson

                      I should say his ERA as a starter was 4.9.

                    • Ted Nelson

                      If you honestly believe all successful AAA players should be guaranteed MLB jobs, you are advocating the Yankees should have cut A-Rod and Tex to make room for Vazquez and Miranda… two of their best AAA hitters in 2010. So, you may want to re-think that argument.

                    • Stuckey

                      “If you honestly believe all successful AAA players should be guaranteed MLB jobs,”

                      A rational person does not extract that from anything I’ve been saying.

                      Phil Hughes had to take a backseat to Wang and Chamberlain, and two free agent acquisitions that had a recent track record of performance.

                      That I’m fine with.

                      That is not the case in 2011.

                      “you are advocating the Yankees should have cut A-Rod and Tex to make room for Vazquez and Miranda… two of their best AAA hitters in 2010. So, you may want to re-think that argument.”

                      Indeed.

                      I’m perfectly happy to have a piss with one another for an afternoon, but you’re beginning to teeter on delusional.

                      Freddy Garcia and Bartolo Colon are not A-Rod and Teixeira.

                      And I feel dirty and cheap even having to type that out.

                    • Ted Nelson

                      “Freddy Garcia and Bartolo Colon are not A-Rod and Teixeira.”

                      And Nova is not Phil Hughes.

                      You are underselling Garcia and possibly Colon, and overselling Nova.

              • Big Apple

                cashman has scoured the mediocre pitching market and signed colon and garcia to cheap deals. if they fail, nova and mitre can fill in the gaps and then then cash can look elsewhere. mediocre pitchers are a dime a dozen.

          • Chris

            The key point was:

            “At this point Nova, Garcia, and Colon are probably close enough to call it even as a starting pitcher.”

            Nova may be the best, but it’s not clear cut. In that case, it’s better to have the options.

            • CountZero

              See — that logic I get. If you really believe it’s equal across all 3 candidates, then the plan to stick Nova in Scranton makes sense.

              My problem is that yesterday a group of people were saying “Garcia will get cut by May and then we bring up Nova”. If you believe Garcia will be so bad that he will get cut after only 2 (maybe 3) starts, then why bother? That’s just throwing away two in the L column.

              • Ted Nelson

                Some of those people may not have thought through their points or expressed them well… but I think their points were more than in the worst case or in a somewhat likely case. I disagree that Garcia is likely to be cut by May 1. Colon, maybe… I have no idea.

                • CountZero

                  Fair enough. I can see that line of thinking.

                  I don’t agree that Garcia is going to be anything better than “Ponson-ian”, but that’s just speculation on my part and your position is equally defensible. :)

                  • Ted Nelson

                    The thing is that I have evidence to back up my point, while you have nothing but speculation.

                    Since finally, fully returning from shoulder surgery in August of 2009 Garcia has pitched pretty decently. Nothing to suggest he’ll be an ace, but nothing to suggest he’ll bomb like Ponson did.

        • Ted Nelson

          Phil Hughes made 86% of his MLB appearances in relief in 2009, which threw me off in terms of using that as a template for Nova in 2011. Your original comment came across to me as though you wanted Nova pitching in relief.

          • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike Axisa

            Nah, he meant as the sixth starter in AAA. Hughes was up in mid-April that year, and Nova has a clearer path with Colon/Garcia around, plus his chances of staying in the rotation long-term are better because there won’t be a Chien-Ming Wang coming off the DL.

      • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike Axisa

        It was one great start. The last time out before that he got knocked around. He’s got two more outings before the season starts, no need to declare him a starter right now.

        • Stuckey

          Oh I agree, last night shouldn’t have changed anyone’s mind.

          Good sense, however, is another matter.. :-)

      • Louis

        Banuelos could be one of our 5 best and he’s not getting a rotation spot. It’s not that simple.

        • YankeesJunkie

          If Banuelos does not pitch 300 innings or the 8th inning set up man this year I will be very disappointed.

          • Louis

            Nooooooooooo dont put him in the bullpen!!!!!!!!!

            • YankeesJunkie

              A good 8th inning man is probably worth at least 10 WAR!

              • Louis

                Haha that’s funny cause anyone who would think that wouldn’t know what WAR was anyways.

              • Ted Nelson

                Because WAR is an accepted way to value relievers and all…

                • YankeesJunkie

                  Shut up…there is no accepted way!

                  :..(

                  • MannyGeee

                    seriously guys? we all know that the only way to evaluate middle relievers is based on the number of opt out clauses in their contracts…

                    e.g.: Joba: ZERO Opt Outs = SHITTY

                    Soriano: Multiple Opt Outs = King of the WORLD

            • vin

              Who else is going to pitch the all important 5th inning?!

              • YankeesJunkie

                Sabathia, of course.

            • Ted Nelson

              Clearly I don’t want Manny starting the 2011 season in the bullpen, but you should take a look at all the successful starters who began their careers in the bullpen before expressing your ignorance.

      • Ted Nelson

        I don’t know what the original point was, but it would be nice to have 5 starters who are better than Nova so that he is forced into that role.

        • Stuckey

          And it’s how readily people are ready to be convinced they do that I find somewhat perplexing.

          Bartolo Colon hasn’t pitched since 2009. He hasn’t been any good since 2005, and even his supporters are advocating giving him the rotation spot fully expecting him to eventually fail.

          Freddy Garcia isn’t a whole lot different.

          I just think the faith in which fans are willing to call the contest so evenly speaks to a lack of patience with young starters.

          • Ted Nelson

            “Bartolo Colon hasn’t pitched since 2009.”

            I’m pretty sure he pitched just the other day… He’s been quite good in ST. That doesn’t mean he’ll have a good season, but it certainly means there’s a possibility that he’s better than Nova right now.

            The case for Colon is one of depth. If you start the season with Colon and he fails or is injured early… you turn to Nova. If you start the season with Nova and he fails or gets injured early you’re turning to… Mitre or rushing a just got to AAA guy who you’d have rather given some more development time.

            If you have patience you’ll wait for him to get his shot in the rotation. It’s hard to impatiently clamor for Nova to open the season in the rotation and then turn around and call others impatient.

            • Ted Nelson

              “even his supporters are advocating giving him the rotation spot fully expecting him to eventually fail.”

              They acknowledge that it’s likely. However, he could surprise and stay healthy/productive. If you get even 5 solid starts from Colon and then turn to Nova that’s good. Worst case you get 2 or 3 stinkers and turn to Nova.

              • Stuckey

                I guess I just don’t get why you don’t go with who you think will give you the best overall 7 to 8 starts.

                2 or 3 “stinkers” for the sake of 5 “solid” just fails for me logically.

                • http://twitter.com/steveh_MandAura Steve H

                  What if CC, AJ, or Hughes get injured and Colon or Garcia are already on another team? Who do you turn to? You have no one with any experience. If you are the Royals, no big deal. The Yankees are trying to win a title in 2011 and need to be more prepared for injuries and ineffectiveness.

                  • Stuckey

                    Yankees are ALWAYS going to be in the hunt.

                    So when does that ever leave room for giving someone a chance that lacks experiences.

                    This to me sounds like am overriding philosophy that essentially dictates trades and free agents over anyone but the very highest ceiling prospects.

                    • Ted Nelson

                      “So when does that ever leave room for giving someone a chance that lacks experiences.”

                      They do it all the time. I don’t understand why you’re ignoring reality and characterizing the Yankees as never giving deserving young players a chance.

                      Nova got his chance last season, is getting one now, and will likely get another one at some point this season.

                      “This to me sounds like am overriding philosophy that essentially dictates trades and free agents over anyone but the very highest ceiling prospects.”

                      I don’t see what’s really wrong with that. The other option is to give mediocre prospects roster spots that more deserving players that would help the Yankees win more would get.
                      Of course, this is not the case though. Guys like Nova, Colin Curtis, Kevin Russo, Eduardo Nunez, Greg Golson… they all got chances last season. And the Yankees trade plenty of high ceiling prospects.
                      There’s always an opportunity cost to a trade, but if you feel like it’s beneficial to the team you do it. The success rate of prospects is very low, and when you have the financial strength of the Yankees you can afford to pay a premium for surer bets.

                • Ted Nelson

                  It’s not 2 or 3 stinkers vs. 5 solid starts… you’re building a strawman and knocking him down. You are not addressing the actual argument.

                  You have good points. Perhaps starting the season with Nova is the best option. Absolutely. Could be. In general it is not always superior to acquire veteran depth over good young players. Absolutely. No one has disagreed.

                  It’s your insistence on misrepresenting the other point of view that is why no one agrees with you. There are two sides to the coin and no clearly right answer. Acting as if you are clearly right and everyone else is clearly wrong is foolish.

                  Colon has pitched 9 innings very effectively. There is a chance he has a good, bounce-back season. There’s just a better chance he doesn’t make it a full season. You are misrepresenting this and acting like he is doomed to fail early in the season.

                  It’s about both quality and quantity (depth). If Nova is clearly better, of course you go with him. The Yankees did not option Hughes down to keep Daniel Turpen because Hughes is clearly the better pitcher. If it were true that depth were the only important thing to commenters here, they’d be arguing that the Yankees should have kept Turpen and optioned Hughes. Nova is not clearly better than Colon or Garcia. Since expectations are close for all three, there is a good argument for keeping all 3 (and even Mitre). Nova just happens to be the one who can be optioned to MiLB. If Nova could leave and Colon could be optioned… the shoe would be on the other foot.

                  Nova is not even that good a prospect. You are acting like he’s some stud. He will get a chance, but he has to be patient and continue to earn it.

                  • Gonzo

                    So 9 innings in ST is enough for someone to know if someone is ready for the 5th starter role, but anything less is not. Did I get that right?

                    • Ted Nelson

                      No, clearly not.

                      I don’t know why you’d even bother insinuating that’s what I meant unless you take me for a complete moron.

                      9 innings is the sample we have to work with. I am not saying that 9 innings indicates he’s ready for anything, just that it indicates that “[t]here is a chance he has a good, bounce-back season.” I then go on to say “[t]here’s just a better chance he doesn’t make it a full season.”

                      That you read what I wrote and took from it that I meant 9 innings is enough to know if someone is ready for any role is not a good sign for you. Sergio Mitre and Luis Ayala have also pitched very well in ST.

                      My main point is that Stuckey has been repeatedly building a strawman out of the point of view that contradicts his own, which makes it very hard to discuss this issue with him. Try reading some of his posts, then reading my post.

                    • Gonzo

                      “That you read what I wrote and took from it that I meant 9 innings is enough to know if someone is ready for any role is not a good sign for you.”

                      Stay classy!

                      You said:
                      “Colon has pitched 9 innings very effectively. There is a chance he has a good, bounce-back season.”

                    • Gonzo

                      Also, why are you so confrontational with me. To the point of passivley insulting me. I think you have unfairly judged me.

                    • Ted Nelson

                      “You said:
                      “Colon has pitched 9 innings very effectively. There is a chance he has a good, bounce-back season.””

                      A. Do you understand what “a chance” means in that context?
                      This is in fact a true and totally valid point. That you don’t understand that “a chance” implies that there’s a possibility is not my problem.

                      B. Even if I had said something besides “a chance” you cut that out of its context. In the VERY NEXT sentence I go on to say that there’s a better chance he doesn’t.

                      “Also, why are you so confrontational with me. To the point of passivley insulting me. I think you have unfairly judged me.”

                      You misrepresented my point to make me look like an idiot, and I’m confrontational with you?

                    • Gonzo

                      Yes, you are confrontational with me. I crack jokes. I admit, that they can be interpreted in many ways, but I have never said anything like “That you read what I wrote and took from it that I meant 9 innings is enough to know if someone is ready for any role is not a good sign for you.”

                      Geez. Show some tact my man. Compose yourself. This isn’t life or death.

                    • Gonzo

                      Also, this gem, “That you don’t understand that “a chance” implies that there’s a possibility is not my problem.”

                      You need to take a break. Maybe step away from the computer for a little while. Dang.

                    • Ted Nelson

                      You are literally doing what you’re accusing me of doing in those two comments… nice. You say you never do it in the same post where you do it. Makes sense.

                      “So 9 innings in ST is enough for someone to know if someone is ready for the 5th starter role, but anything less is not. Did I get that right?”

                      This was a ridiculous comment based on my post. If it was a joke… I fail to see the humor.

                    • Gonzo

                      Yes, it was a joke. And you did fail to see the humor. Becasue obviously 9 innings is not enough to make that decision. Which most people here know.

                      You might need to take a chill pill. I mean that not as an offense. I mean that as a helping piece of advice.

                    • Ted Nelson

                      I’m pretty chill.

                      “So 9 innings in ST is enough for someone to know if someone is ready for the 5th starter role, but anything less is not. Did I get that right?”

                      How is that not a knock on my comment?

                      You directed it right at my comment. You ask, condescendingly, “did I get that right?” No, you didn’t get that right. Period. I’m done.

                    • Gonzo

                      Good, ’cause I could go on, but I think it’s wise if we both just took a step back. You know, CHILLAX.

                  • Stuckey

                    “Acting as if you are clearly right and everyone else is clearly wrong is foolish.”

                    “You’re obsession with picking apart the depth argument without even understanding its nuances astounds me.”

                    There is nothing I can add to the above.

                    “They do it all the time. I don’t understand why you’re ignoring reality and characterizing the Yankees as never giving deserving young players a chance.”

                    I’m not. I believe you’ve overlooked the nuance.

                    I’m not accusing the Yankees of this. I’m calling Yankees fans on advocating this. Two entirely different premises. I’m on record twice in this thread saying I think Nova has already secures his rotation spot.

                    • Ted Nelson

                      No one is advocating a general approach of holding deserving prospects who can make the team better down and losing baseball games at the MLB level as a result. This is where you are missing the nuances in favor of making sweeping generalizations. People are saying that in this one, very particular, unique, ONLY THIS ONE case… Nova is not clearly better than Garcia or Colon and therefore the Yankees might benefit from keeping all 3 around until a point at which it is clear which are the best of the 3 for 2011. Nova will not leave the org if he doesn’t make the rotation. He will still have a chance to prove himself in AAA. If Colon or Garcia doesn’t make the team… there is a good chance they will leave the org.

                      Again, you are creating a strawman and not actually arguing against what others are saying.

                      “I’m on record twice in this thread saying I think Nova has already secures his rotation spot.”

                      Based on what?

                  • Stuckey

                    “There is a chance he has a good, bounce-back season.”

                    Which then means what for Nova?

                    “There’s just a better chance he doesn’t make it a full season.”

                    Which somewhat of implies at good chance of at least a small series of ineffective starts, correct?

                    “It’s about both quality and quantity (depth).”

                    Do you really need to define “quantity for me”?

                    Get over yourself.

                    “Since expectations are close for all three,”

                    Whose expectations?

                    Yours?

                    “Nova is not even that good a prospect. You are acting like he’s some stud.”

                    Not acting in any way. I’m expressing an argument.

                    He has performed at the Major League level. He continues to at the current closest equivilant.

                    I’m not a fan of the slavish adherence to scouting “projection”.

                    • Ted Nelson

                      “Which then means what for Nova?”

                      That he can continue to prove himself in AAA and possibly make spot starts when the Yankees need.

                      Nova is a borderline rotation prospect. Odds are that if the Yankees give him a 100% secure spot in the rotation he will flop. I don’t see why you’re acting like he’s some sort of stud based on a good season his second tour of AAA at 23 years old. Certainly he has a chance to be a good MLB pitcher, but more prospects don’t make it than do.

                      “Which somewhat of implies at good chance of at least a small series of ineffective starts, correct?”

                      ??? Is that English?
                      Nova also has a chance of a small series of ineffective starts. If the Yankees like what they see in Colon and feel he’s regained the form he lost after 2005, then health is more a concern than performance. If they think there’s a good chance he’ll make a couple of awful starts… they’ll cut his fat ass. No one can predict the future. I don’t see why you insist on trying.

                      “Whose expectations?
                      Yours?”

                      No, mainstream expectations. The consensus expectation.

                      “Not acting in any way. I’m expressing an argument.”

                      Not very well. You have made no attempt to argue why or how Nova is a superior pitcher to Colon or Garcia. You have simply nitpicked at the phrasing of other people’s arguments.

                      “He has performed at the Major League level.”

                      No. He has not. He had a 4.9 ERA in his 7 starts.

                      “I’m not a fan of the slavish adherence to scouting “projection”.”

                      Nor am I. I am a fan at backing up you argument with something, though. He was decidedly mediocre in 7 starts last season, yet your whole argument is that he performed well…

                    • Stuckey

                      “No, mainstream expectations. The consensus expectation.”

                      I have no interest in rebutting this. If consensus is your argument, you’re welcome to it.

                      “You have made no attempt to argue why or how Nova is a superior pitcher to Colon or Garcia. You have simply nitpicked at the phrasing of other people’s arguments.

                      No. He has not. He had a 4.9 ERA in his 7 starts.”

                      You accuse others of not understanding “nuance” yet here you are citing ERA of someone’s first 7 major league starts?

                      Really?

                      So we’re ignoring the very specific circumstance of his ERA. The unmistakable “trend”… a rookie issue that Yankees have made it very clear they think is addressable?

                      And we choose “4.9″ over Colon didn’t pitch in 2010 and has thrown 9 ST innings?

                      “Nor am I. I am a fan at backing up you argument with something, though. He was decidedly mediocre in 7 starts last season, yet your whole argument is that he performed well…”

                      He was making his first 7 major league starts, and did show enormous potential and an unmistakable trend that the Yankees feel he can correct.

                      Your last paragraph is EXACTLY the premise of my argument.

                      You don’t like him on paper, therefore he gets treated like a veteran instead of a rookie.

                      You cite his ERA to make your point, because it reflects what YOU personally project for him and ignore the circumstances.

                      I don’t know about you, but I’d take a 4.9 ERA for the first seven starts of his career from Nova, or Hellickson, or Banuelos or Betances or Brackman for that matter.

                      And what I’d pay MORE attention to was the specifics of their starts and filter that through the obvious necessary consideration.

                      But in this, I have to assume, we differ.

                      What, 3.75 outta the gate, or you get in line behind the guy who didn’t pitch in over a season and hasn’t been any good in 6?

                      Nice.

                    • Ted Nelson

                      Forget it.

                      You clearly know exactly what the Yankee decision makers are thinking and no one else knows anything. This has been an enormous waste of time. You have already decided that you know the inner-workings of Brian Cashman’s brain. You are arguing that you already know what the Yankees decided, when they themselves may not have decided anything. You are a class A moron. Have a good life.

                  • Stuckey

                    “No one is advocating a general approach of holding deserving prospects who can make the team better down and losing baseball games at the MLB level as a result.”

                    No one ever does.

                    The advocacy takes shape in response to specific circumstances. That’s when the approach is tested.

                    “Nova is not clearly better than Garcia or Colon”

                    In your opinion.

                    “Based on what?”

                    Based on the premise he already earned it.

                    Did you miss petty much EVERY beat writer conform Nova had a spot locked up last night.

                    Understood superficially, one might conclude they were reacting to last night’s performance.

                    If you understand nuance, the press closest to the Yankees were simply reiterating to fans what should be clear.

                    Nova came into ST with a spot to lose and he hasn’t lost it.

                    In a few weeks time we can argue about how this pretty clear conclusion was just a wild guess on my part and that both I AND Brian Cashman are wrong.

                    Nova is in the rotation.

                    I have a real hard time understanding how people don’t see that.

                    • Ted Nelson

                      “The advocacy takes shape in response to specific circumstances. That’s when the approach is tested.”

                      Again, why are you in favor of such a strict rule? Every situation is different. Juan Miranda also performed in AAA. If the strict rule is that you always hand a starting job to your best AAA players, the Yankees would cut Tex to give Miranda a job. See why this should not be a strict rule and you need to consider specific circumstances?

                      “In your opinion.”

                      Based on statistical evidence.

                      “Based on the premise he already earned it.”

                      Based on his 7 starts with a 4.9 ERA?

                      “Did you miss petty much EVERY beat writer conform Nova had a spot locked up last night.”

                      Did you miss it when every beat writer said Bubba Crosby was the Yankees starting CF? Who cares what the media says? You don’t think it’s a coincidence that he happened to pitch a gem the same day?

                      If Nova earns a spot and the Yankees feel he’s clearly a better option than Colon and/or Garcia… I have maintained all along that they should give him the job.

                      “Nova came into ST with a spot to lose and he hasn’t lost it.”

                      That’s your opinion. The mainstream take is that Garcia has the spot to lose and Nova is battling Colon and Mitre for the 5th spot.

                      “I have a real hard time understanding how people don’t see that.”

                      Because it’s not clear. You think it’s clear and everyone else doesn’t. Odd.

                  • Stuckey

                    “You are a class A moron. Have a good life.”

                    In other words…

                    “I can’t respond to the fact I just cited the ERA of a rookie making his first 7 major league starts while at the same time argued for considering nuance in an argument”.

                    • Ted Nelson

                      No… in other words:

                      You misrepresented how I cited that stat, moron. I cited it and said that it is a very small sample. I went on to say that his true talent could be 4.9, better, or worse. You countered by saying you know what the Yankees thought of those 7 starts (so I assume you have discussed the subject with Girardi? Cashman? Connors? Oppenheimer?).

                    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike Axisa

                      Stop calling people morons and grow up.

            • Stuckey

              “The case for Colon is one of depth.”

              And I believe the case for Nova is a larger organizational philosophy.

              Yankees have a whole host of pitchers at AAA-AA that have legit major league potential (of varying degrees). That depth in fact is the current calling card of the farm system.

              I’d like the Yankees to promote the ides that if you improve and perform you will secure a chance to prove you belong, not have to wait for a reclamation project to fail or get injured.

              Sending Nova down after he has performed at AAA AND NY and continues to perform sends ALL the wrong messages, IMO, not only to him but to the Noesi’s, Warren’s, Brackman’s and Phelps’ (and more) of the world.

              Which is something of a moot point, as I’m fairly certain Nova’s rotation spot is secure and has been for some time.

              • Ted Nelson

                I think that’s total crap. The right message to send is that we care about winning and will do whatever is in our best interest to win. The wrong message to send is that we coddle (mediocre) prospects at the expense of winning baseball games and championships. If Nova deserves a spot, he’ll get one. Stop acting like a mediocre prospect who barely got by after being called up is some stud.

                Nova had one good season in AAA. He wasn’t even good in MLB. He was passable, and nothing more.

                What indication do you have that the Yankees don’t promote deserving prospects? If anything they are accused of “rushing” Joba, Hughes, and IPK. Hughes, Cano, Gardner, Joba, Robertson, Cervelli, Jeter, Posada… all those guys came from within the system. They all got their chances in due time.

                There is no larger trend here. You’re making it up. This is a case by case thing. The Yankees are giving Nova, Montero, and Nunez chances to earn spots on the opening day roster. Even Banuelos is being kept in MLB camp really long for a 20 year old. Nova has to prove that he’s a clearly better option than Colon or Garcia to make the rotation. If he does that, he will make the rotation. If he doesn’t, he won’t. Why does Nova deserve special treatment just because he’s a prospect? What message does it send when you hand jobs to guys who don’t deserve them and haven’t earned them?

                • Stuckey

                  “The wrong message to send is that we coddle (mediocre) prospects at the expense of winning baseball games and championships. If Nova deserves a spot, he’ll get one. Stop acting like a mediocre prospect who barely got by after being called up is some stud.”

                  I’ll reiterate.

                  THIS if your actual premise.

                  The “depth” issue is a beard.

                  If we’re going to argue the merits of Nova, let’s argue the merits of Nova, and not add some secondary distraction on top of it.

                  “What indication do you have that the Yankees don’t promote deserving prospects?”

                  None. I’m not debating Brian Cashman, I’m debating you.

                  Understand?

                  “There is no larger trend here. You’re making it up.”

                  No, you’re making up the idea I implied there was a trend.

                  “Nova has to prove that he’s a clearly better option than Colon or Garcia to make the rotation.”

                  Right. I I believe 2010 should count.

                  “Why does Nova deserve special treatment just because he’s a prospect? What message does it send when you hand jobs to guys who don’t deserve them and haven’t earned them?”

                  You don’t understand the nuance of my argument.

                  Compared to Colon (at least), he HAS earned his job.

                  I’m counting 2010. You apparently, are not.

                  • Ted Nelson

                    “If we’re going to argue the merits of Nova, let’s argue the merits of Nova, and not add some secondary distraction on top of it.”

                    No. You clearly don’t understand the argument if you can’t see where depth comes in.

                    “None. I’m not debating Brian Cashman, I’m debating you.”

                    You’re not debating me. I’m pointing out why your comments are foolish. You are debating a strawman you created that people actually think the Yankees should lose games because depth is so important.

                    “No, you’re making up the idea I implied there was a trend.”

                    Read through your comments. You continually refer to how keeping Nova down would set a bad precedent for other prospects… that’s a trend my man.

                    “You don’t understand the nuance of my argument.
                    Compared to Colon (at least), he HAS earned his job.
                    I’m counting 2010. You apparently, are not.”

                    A. Colon didn’t pitch in 2010. He couldn’t pitch well or poorly if he didn’t pitch. Considering his 2010 more than his ST 2011 is just ridiculous. Actually… Colon did pitch… did you happen to watch all his starts in the Domincan Winter League to say how he did? If not you have no argument.
                    B. Nova did not pitch well after he was called up. I don’t see why you keep insisting he did while not citing a single stat. A 4.9 ERA as a starter is not good.

                    • Stuckey

                      “Read through your comments. You continually refer to how keeping Nova down would set a bad precedent for other prospects… that’s a trend my man.”

                      Right, which is in direct response to fans advocating that approach.

                      I never implied that Yankees will do that (quite the opposite) nor suggested the Yankees committed this sin the past.

                      “A. Colon didn’t pitch in 2010.”

                      Which I consider relevant.

                      “B. Nova did not pitch well after he was called up. I don’t see why you keep insisting he did while not citing a single stat. A 4.9 ERA as a starter is not good.”

                      2.57 ERA and 0.96 WHIP in the first four innings of his starts. 12.46/2.65 after.

                      Do I really need to point out the potential those number suggest exist?

                      I’m not saying it’s definitive so please don’t go there.

                      And you can also write it off as statistical noise.

                      But I think it clearly implies Nova has the tools to get ML hitters out and than sustaining that ability deeper into games is the rub, which would not be an unprecedented bugaboo for a rookie starter.

                      Maybe that’s too nuanced for you…

                    • Ted Nelson

                      “Do I really need to point out the potential those number suggest exist?”

                      I never said the potential doesn’t exist. I said that you don’t HAVE to start his season in MLB if you have comparable options who will no longer be affiliated with the team should you send them down to the minors.

                      *If* the Yankees feel Garcia/Colon/Mitre are as good of short-term options or better (even if they think they’re almost as good), they *could* start the season with those guys on the roster and see how they do as well as how Nova does in AAA. They could also go with Nova and lose one of those guys, in which case they would also have to feel comfortable with Noesi/Brackman/Phelps/Warren/Banuelos/Betances/Free Agent X as back-up plans instead of Nova as a back-up plan. I don’t think there’s necessarily a wrong answer, so I disagree with you that starting Nova in AAA is so obviously a wrong answer and will never possibly happen. Montero is a much better prospect than Nova, and he could start 2010 in AAA (especially if Cervelli were healthy).

                • Stuckey

                  “Again, why are you in favor of such a strict rule? Every situation is different.”

                  Agreed. In and THIS situation what’s behind curtain #2 is Freddy Garcia and Bartolo Colon (and to a lesser extent Serio Mitre).

                  “See why this should not be a strict rule and you need to consider specific circumstances?”

                  See why this specific circumstances that speaks to a larger philosophy and is NOT a strict rule?

                  “Because it’s not clear. You think it’s clear and everyone else doesn’t. Odd.”

                  I think the “everyone” you cite are fans fixated on hedging.

                  I’ll do so far as to say Nova will be in the rotation regardless of how Colon or Garcia do the rest of ST, good or bad.

                  If that is how it turns out, will you acknowledge it?

                  • Ted Nelson

                    “Agreed. In and THIS situation what’s behind curtain #2 is Freddy Garcia and Bartolo Colon (and to a lesser extent Serio Mitre).”

                    And those are not necessarily worse options than Nova. Lots of guys do well in AAA and never make it. That’s my point with the ridiculous Miranda and Vazquez for Tex and A-Rod scenario. It’s a huge jump from AAA to the majors.

                    Do you even realize that Garcia made more quality starts last season than Hughes? If you are calling him into question you should probably also be calling Burnett and Hughes into question.

                    I have never once said Nova should not get a rotation spot. I have said continuously that he should earn it. I don’t see why you’re fighting windmills Don Quijote.

                    “See why this specific circumstances that speaks to a larger philosophy and is NOT a strict rule?”

                    The philosophy that guys should be handed jobs even if they don’t earn them and veteran players can never bounce back?
                    The Yankees are always pretty clear that they want to create some competition in camp and ST games. They rarely hand out jobs. Neither Jeter nor Cano was handed a job, the Yankees made both compete with veteran retreads. Both won the competition due to being superior or default (Tony Fernandez got hurt). The Yankees brought in Russell Martin to C, even though Montero destroyed AAA last season.

                    “If that is how it turns out, will you acknowledge it?”

                    No. I will pretend like Nova’s not in the rotation even when he’s starting games every 5th day for the Yankees…

                    • Stuckey

                      “March 17, 2011 at 1:30 pm

                      Forget it. Have a good life.”

                      Ah, not sooo fast…

                      “March 17, 2011 at 2:07 pm

                      “And those are not necessarily worse options than Nova.”

                      Classic.

                      “Do you even realize that Garcia made more quality starts last season than Hughes?”

                      I do. I suspect Garcia makes the team

                      “The philosophy that guys should be handed jobs even if they don’t earn them and veteran players can never bounce back?”

                      I have clearly advocated I think Nova earned his job before ST started, at least in the relative context of having to beat out camp invitee with no 2010 record to speak of.

                      Yankees trade for Cliff Lee or Pettitte doesn’t retire, different story.

                      The reason why I’m indulging you is you began this pissing contest declaring that I didn’t understand nuance and have been trying to boil what I’m saying down to platitudes ever since.

                      I’m talking about a general philosophy as it relates to a specific circumstance, which in this case is retread reclamation projects.

                      “They rarely hand out jobs.”

                      Fine, let’s pretend I didn’t say he came into camp with a job to lose and ignore the direct implication that he could indeed lose it.

                      Now I’ll be more specific because I think at this stage you require it.

                      Losing it doesn’t mean Colon threw a 94mph fastball or if his ERA was .50 lower in 17 spring innings.

                      It means if NOVA himself showed up and didn’t look like he was ready.

                      “No. I will pretend like Nova’s not in the rotation even when he’s starting games every 5th day for the Yankees…”

                      Figured as much…

                      [did you understand the nuance of that response?]

      • http://twitter.com/steveh_MandAura Steve H

        If he’s one of your 5 best starters you take him.

        In a perfect world where every starter is guaranteed to make 30 starts I would agree with you. The problem is that the Yankees will likely have at least 8 or 9 guys make starts this year, so keeping the depth is pretty important.

        • Stuckey

          By this logic Yankees should be stockpiling every invitee and/or minor league deal formerly effective starter than can find, including (but not limited to) Kevin Millwood, and this should be a perpetual practice going forward.

          Yankees prospects who have proven themselves at AAA (and even some time in NY) should be prepared to open the next new season in AAA, secured somewhere several options down the depth chart, with their advancement contingent upon the injury and/or eventual failure of the retreads before them.

          • YankeesJunkie

            There is ALWAYS a middle ground that is most cost effective.

          • Ted Nelson

            They did offer Kevin Millwood a minor league deal… and he declined.

            The point is not to accumulate depth at the cost of performance. If Nova were Hellickson people would not be advocating starting him in AAA.
            On the contrary, the point is that Nova’s performance is in no way guaranteed to be better than Colon’s or Garcia’s or even Mitre’s. The point is that AAA performance is not a perfect indicator of MLB success. If the Angels cleared a path for Brandon Wood by cutting veterans–and Wood was a MUCH, MUCH better prospect than Nova–they would have been making a big mistake. When the Yankees did promote their young starters to MLB–Hughes, IPK, Joba–it didn’t work out.
            Your approach is certainly not superior to a more patient approach. Not that the more patient approach is necessarily better either.
            In this case no one knows who will have the best seasons among Nova, Colon, and Garcia… so there is a strong argument for keeping all three around, as well as Mitre for depth. The opening day roster doesn’t have to be the roster all season. Have some patience. In Nova is good he’ll get his shot.

            • Stuckey

              “The point is not to accumulate depth at the cost of performance. If Nova were Hellickson people would not be advocating starting him in AAA.”

              Then “depth” is distraction. If the real issue is Nova’s perceived potential, then that should be front and center.

              THAT is the underlying premise, not depth.

              “On the contrary, the point is that Nova’s performance is in no way guaranteed to be better than Colon’s or Garcia’s or even Mitre’s.”

              Nobody’s ever is, not even Hellickson.

              Fans looking for a guarantee for rookies will always be looking, because no such thing exists.

              “Have some patience. In Nova is good he’ll get his shot.”

              Not about “patience”. About marginalizing and hedging to a standstill.

              Successful minor leaguers should be allowed to advance. I believe it’s a healthy philosophy for a system to promote from the top to the very bottom of their farm system.

              • Ted Nelson

                “Then “depth” is distraction. If the real issue is Nova’s perceived potential, then that should be front and center.”

                No, that’s not the issue.

                This is a complex issue and cannot be broken down to any one thing. I don’t see why you continually insist it should be. It’s not about just depth. It’s also not about just performance. IT’S ABOUT BOTH. I don’t know how to make that any clearer to you. The argument is that *if* all three rotation candidate’s (or 4 with Mitre) expected performance is close in the Yankees eyes, you keep them all to have the depth. This is not mutually exclusive with your desire to develop prospects. Spending a couple more months in Scranton is not going to kill Ivan Nova. There have been very good players who spent their 24 year old season in AAA (including Mariano Rivera, for a great Yankee example).

                “THAT is the underlying premise, not depth.”

                It’s about both. If he is clearly better, you give him the job. If he is not clearly better there is a strong argument to be made for depth. That doesn’t even mean that argument is right in every case. Just means it’s a strong argument.

                In this case people point to the depth argument because he is not clearly better. That’s taken for granted by people who make comments about depth because they don’t think other posters are so dense at to think Nova is a clearly strong MLB starter after a bunch of 4 inning starts last season.

                “Nobody’s ever is, not even Hellickson.”

                Hellickson is a better pitcher today than Garcia and probably Colon. That doesn’t mean his performance will necessarily be better this season, but he’s a better pitcher.
                Phil Hughes performance in 2011 may not end up being any better than Daniel Turpens, but you give him the job because he’s a better pitcher and the chances are high that he’ll have a better season. That’s an extreme example to illustrate how this works.

                “Not about “patience”. About marginalizing and hedging to a standstill.”

                Nova has been a marginal prospect his whole career. He had easily his most impressive season in 2010 and has been strong in ST 2011. Where are you coming up with this image that the Yankees treatment of Nova is hurting him?
                It’s all about patience. The kid is 24. Plenty of good-to-great pitchers didn’t get chances to be MLB starting pitchers till later in their lives… Curt Schilling, Kenny Rogers, David Wells, CJ Wilson… those are some names that come to mind.

                “Successful minor leaguers should be allowed to advance.”

                Not to the MLB level if they don’t make the MLB team better. It’s a HUGE step from AAA to MLB. In the same post you argue that rookies are never a sure thing and that you should always promote a guy who does well in AAA… mind-boggling. I guess A-Rod and Tex should have been cut to make room for Jorge Vazquez and Juan Miranda too, huh? Cut Nick Swisher for Colin Curtis. Cut Robinson Cano for Eduardo Nunez. Clearly you do not believe all successful AAA players should be allowed to advance unless you agree with those moves. Most things in life are complex… I don’t see why you insist of trying to make everything so one dimensional.

                I don’t know where you’re coming up with this bullcrap that the Yankees don’t advance successful prospects. They do. That’s their organizational philosophy, just like it is every other org.’s.

                • Stuckey

                  “The argument is that *if* all three rotation candidate’s (or 4 with Mitre) expected performance is close in the Yankees eyes, you keep them all to have the depth.”

                  The argument being advanced is that you and others know what the Yankees thinking is.

                  “It’s about both. If he is clearly better, you give him the job.”

                  So again, 2010 doesn’t count?

                  Or 2009, 2008, 2007 and 2006 for that matter?

                  “Hellickson is a better pitcher today than Garcia and probably Colon. That doesn’t mean his performance will necessarily be better this season, but he’s a better pitcher.”

                  So “performance is secondary to who is theorectically a better pitcher on paper?

                  “Nova has been a marginal prospect his whole career. He had easily his most impressive season in 2010 and has been strong in ST 2011. Where are you coming up with this image that the Yankees treatment of Nova is hurting him?”

                  Nowhere, because I never wrote or implied it.

                  I believe the Yankees have it right.

                  I believe YOU have it wrong.

                  “Successful minor leaguers should be allowed to advance.”

                  “I guess A-Rod and Tex should have been cut to make room for Jorge Vazquez and Juan Miranda too, huh?”

                  Yes, that’s exactly what I’m saying. Kudos to you for seeing through that. Point for your team.

                  “I don’t see why you insist of trying to make everything so one dimensional.”

                  At this stage, perhaps so you can understand it.

                  “I don’t know where you’re coming up with this bullcrap that the Yankees don’t advance successful prospects.”

                  Neither do I.

                  Which makes it all the stranger that you seem to be getting very upset over it.

                  • Ted Nelson

                    “The argument being advanced is that you and others know what the Yankees thinking is.”

                    ****IF**** they are all projected by the Yankees to be relatively similar to start 2011, as they are by most baseball people. ****IF**** implies contingency.
                    I have stated 1000000 times that IF Nova is projected by the Yankees to be a better option the job should be his. Again, Nova was projected to be better than Turpen, so they let Turpen go. How you know the Yankees exact feelings about Nova, Colon, etc. is just beyond me. You say others are pretending to know… but that’s your whole argument is pretending to know “it’s clear” Nova already has a spot.

                    “So again, 2010 doesn’t count?”

                    Of course it counts. It’s not the only thing to consider, though.
                    And Colon didn’t pitch in 2010. He did pitch in the DWL, and apparently the Yankees were impressed. He was pitched 9 innings in ST, and hasn’t done poorly. I don’t see why you insist he has absolutely no chance or even a worse chance than Nova. You say Nova deserves a spot due to “major league success”… Colon has a bloody Cy Young. How’s that for major league success?

                    “Or 2009, 2008, 2007 and 2006 for that matter?”

                    I wouldn’t cite 2007, 2008, or 2009 as a positive for Nova.

                    “So “performance is secondary to who is theorectically a better pitcher on paper?”

                    No. We do not know who will perform better, so teams go with who they *expect* to perform better.

                    “I believe YOU have it wrong.”

                    Hahahahaha… this is truly laughable. My point all along has been that the Yankees should have a competition and whoever they think has the best chance and being a good starter in 2011 should win the job. That Nova should have a chance, but so should Colon. Just because he didn’t pitch in 2010 the Yankees shouldn’t assume that means he’ll never pitch well again… especially when he did pitch well in DWL and has been so far in ST.
                    My point to you has simply been that if expectations for Garcia and Colon are better than or even with expectations for Nova… keeping all three affords better depth. The depth argument you keep mocking.
                    You have done nothing but nitpick at the wording and logic of my arguments and made no real point except that you “know” Nova has the job locked up.

                    • Stuckey

                      “I have stated 1000000 times that IF Nova is projected by the Yankees to be a better option the job should be his.”

                      I would hope you would.

                      “You say others are pretending to know… but that’s your whole argument is pretending to know “it’s clear” Nova already has a spot.”

                      That’s not my argument at all.

                      My argument is that Nova SHOULD get the spot.

                      That he will get the spot is me simply saying that I believe the Yankees are acting wisely, more wisely than some fans.

                      “I don’t see why you insist he has absolutely no chance or even a worse chance than Nova. You say Nova deserves a spot due to “major league success”… Colon has a bloody Cy Young. How’s that for major league success?”

                      Really??

                      And btw. I happen to think Colon may make the team, because I suspect the Yankees might wind up choosing Colon over Mitre, or Garcia over Mitre, whichever way floats your boat.

                      “Just because he didn’t pitch in 2010 the Yankees shouldn’t assume that means he’ll never pitch well again…”

                      Did I miss a memo or did you not say odds are he’ll flame out during the season?

                      “and made no real point except that you “know” Nova has the job locked up.”

                      I haven’t made that point at all.

                      You know the point I’ve made, or you have some serious issues.

                      Nova has already shown enough to get a shot over the options that currently present themselves, or reasons that exist on a number of levels.

                      You’ve responded very specifically to these point Why are you now pretending they don’t exist?

                      Are either misrepresenting me intentionally or are genuinely getting confused.

                      My money’s on the latter.

                    • Ted Nelson

                      “That’s not my argument at all.”

                      You keep repeating that the Yankees have it right and I have it wrong… Which implies A. that the Yankees will definitely open with Nova in the rotation and B. that I think they shouldn’t. B is definitely not true, and I have no idea whether A is true.

                      “My argument is that Nova SHOULD get the spot.”

                      Then make that argument. You have not at all convinced me.

                      “Did I miss a memo or did you not say odds are he’ll flame out during the season?”

                      Do you understand statistics as the science relates to predicting future outcomes? We cannot predict the future with any certainty, but we can assign probabilities to certain outcomes based on historical observations. It is not that likely Colon has a strong 2011 MLB season… however I don’t know exactly how likely it is. The Yankees hopefully have a much better idea than I do having scouted him over the years, in DWL this winter, and having his in camp this spring.

                      “I suspect the Yankees might wind up choosing Colon over Mitre, or Garcia over Mitre, whichever way floats your boat.”

                      I can definitely see that. I can see a lot of outcomes, which is why I don’t understand your insistence that there is only one correct outcome.

                      “Are either misrepresenting me intentionally or are genuinely getting confused.
                      My money’s on the latter.”

                      I’m mostly quoting directly from your comments. You keep insisting that the Yankees have it right, that Nova has already earned a spot before ST started, that the depth argument is meaningless, that people arguing in one case that a prospect should not start the season with the team means they are arguing for a general rule by which prospects are held down and never get a chance in the majors, etc. Re-read your posts and you’ll find all those arguments. I can’t read you mind, only your posts.

                    • Ted Nelson

                      He also didn’t fare well in the 3rd inning, by the way, which would be his second time through the top of the order in an average start.

                      Again, I’m not saying he’s not good. I’m saying that it’s not as clear as you present it that he’s a better option than Freddy Garcia or even Colon or Mitre. Mitre also did well against AAA hitter at 23 years old and is also killing ST 2011… that doesn’t mean too much really.

  • Monteroisdinero

    Nova at 24 is far from a finished product. Not sure we know what his ceiling is. Big body, good mechanics, good pitching coach, good demeanor and arsenal of pitches.

    The Phillies have a couple of highly paid starters who weren’t much different at 24.

    /just sayin’

    • YankeesJunkie

      No, that is correct. Nova just needs to develop a second pitch that is slightly above average and a third that he can show and he should have a career in the majors.

      • http://twitter.com/steveh_MandAura Steve H

        Nova just needs to develop a second pitch that is slightly above average and a third that he can show and he should have a career in the majors.

        The list of guys this applies to is amazingly long, and most of them never get there.

        • YankeesJunkie

          I already consider the FB average-slightly above and the curve as show me-slightly below. Obviously he still has work to do like a lot of pitcher failed, but hopefully he will not be one of those.

    • http://twitter.com/steveh_MandAura Steve H

      While those guys weren’t fully developed at 24, they were regarded much higher at the same age. Scouts saw more in them at the time to believe that they had room for growth that, for the most part, isn’t seen in Nova.

      • YankeesJunkie

        Johan Santana was a Rule 5.

        • http://twitter.com/steveh_MandAura Steve H

          Yeah, I was referring to the Phillies guys.

        • Ted Nelson

          Johan Santana isn’t on the Phillies, is he?

          Santana, at 24, finished 7th in the Cy Young voting… At 23 he had posted an ERA of 3 and ERA+ of 150 in 108 MLB innings.

          • http://twitter.com/steveh_MandAura Steve H

            He was also rated as the #51 prospect in baseball at one point in time, so even though he’s not who I was referring to, he was also more highly regarded than Nova ever was.

            Not to mention, Ivan Nova was also a rule 5 pick who got returned.

            • Ted Nelson

              In fairness he was rated #51 going into his 24 year old season… But, yeah, I don’t think people need to compare Nova exclusively to Cy Young winners to show that he could be a good MLB starter.

              • Chris

                A better type of comp would likely be Jake Westbrook. He averaged over 3 WAR per season over 5 seasons from age 25-29. That’s a very valuable pitcher – even if he will probably never be an all star or Cy Young winner.

              • http://twitter.com/steveh_MandAura Steve H

                But Nova is heading into his 24 season and is nowhere near the top 100.

            • Gonzo

              The Rule 5 Draft rules were much less stringent when Johan got picked. The rules changed a little to make it harder to get top talent away from a team since then.

              • http://twitter.com/steveh_MandAura Steve H

                He had to be stashed at the major league level when the Twins didn’t feel he was ready. He was a converted OF too and had a lot less experience than Nova. If the Padres saw in Nova what the Twins saw in Santana, they would have kept him, no doubt.

                Nova is not Johan, he’s not Halladay, and he’s not Lee.

                • Gonzo

                  I think that was my point. It was easier in 2001 to snag a “good” player in the Rule 5 Draft than it was when Nova got snagged in the Rule 5 Draft. My point is that you cannot compare the two because of this fact. I think you agree with me. Not sure though.

                  • http://twitter.com/steveh_MandAura Steve H

                    Not really. I’m saying if the Padres thought they had the next Johan Santana, they would have kept him. It would have been a lot easier for the Padres to stick Nova on the MLB roster because he was older and much more experienced.

                    • Gonzo

                      Ok, I am saying this. In 2006, the MLB changed the Rule 5 Draft. I have no comment on what the Padres thought or what they considered. Nor did I mention that in my post.

                      “The major league portion of the Rule 5 draft will be affected by giving teams one extra year to protect players from it.

                      Rather than teams being allowed three years (for players signed at age 19 or older) or four years (for players 18 and younger) before leaving them off the 40-man roster subjects them to the Rule 5 draft, those periods have been lengthened to four and five. Ownership considered this a significant boost in their efforts to operate their minor league systems more effectively.

                      “It gives the clubs more flexibility with their roster,” said MacPhail, who added that the cost to select a player ($50,000) or get him back from the selecting club ($25,000) remain the same.”

                      My point is that Johan might have stuck with the Padres under these conditions because they would have had one more year to evaluate him. Thus, making Johan a different animal than Nova. That’s all. I don’t know or care what the Padres thought at the time of the Rule 5 draft when Johan was taken.

                    • http://twitter.com/steveh_MandAura Steve H

                      Johan was a prize. The Twins knew they had something special, so instead of just letting him go back to the Astros, they stuck him in the majors, unprepared to the tune of a 5.90 ERA in his first 129.2 innings. Nova didn’t get a day on the big league roster.

                      The Yankees took advantageof that extra year to evaluate him, and still let him go.

                    • Gonzo

                      Yes! That’s my point. That Johan and Nova are not the same because the Yankees took that extra year and still let him go. I am not saying Nova can’t be good, but the odds of him being Johan good are slim to none. That was my point.

                  • http://twitter.com/steveh_MandAura Steve H

                    I am not saying Nova can’t be good, but the odds of him being Johan good are slim to none. That was my point.

                    Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Yup, same page.

                    • Gonzo

                      Yeah, I thought we were on the same page.

                    • http://twitter.com/steveh_MandAura Steve H

                      I’m a little slow today.

        • http://www.twitter.com/jordansmed JGS

          Correct me if I’m wrong here, but Johan Santana also was a guy in the low minors with a lot of upside who wasn’t ready at the time, but the Twins figured they would be lousy anyway, keep him in the pen where he will probably stink, then they get to keep him after one season and develop him at their own pace. He was in BA’s #51 prospect two years after his Rule 5 year with Minnesota.

  • Reggie C.

    This team is loaded with too many good relievers to contemplate assigning Nova to the ‘pen.

    • YankeesJunkie

      It would be detrimental to both Nova and the Yankees to put Nova in the pen plain and simple.

      Unless he could pitch the 8th then obviously everything changes.

      • Reggie C.

        Right. Which is why this “Hughes ’09 role” talk has me mystified.

        • vin

          What I meant by that was let him serve his role as the 6th starter in SWB. Then when someone gets hurt or is ineffective, like Wang was, bring him up and let him plug the hole. Then when the hurt or ineffective pitcher returns, Girardi/Cashman can either:
          A) send Nova back down to SWB
          b) move Nova to the pen
          c) release the returning pitcher (if he his Garcia or Colon)
          d) move the returning pitcher to the pen
          e) try to work out a deal with the returning pitcher’s agent to send him down to SWB for the time being

          The point is: sending Nova to SWB, and taking Garcia and Colon north will give the Yankees the most options.

          It’s not as though Nova has been completely lights out this spring and Garcia and Colon have been awful. I think everyone is overstating the difference between Nova and the veterans.

      • Guest

        You know “the eighth!!!” related jokes just never get old to me. Maybe because those who pay homage to the “the eighth” are so frustratingly annoying about it.

        • YankeesJunkie

          But it is so much more valuable even if you are a fifth starter who could manage a 1.7 WAR!

          • Ted Nelson

            Not sure what you mean, but Joba had a 1.4 WAR in relief last season and WAR is commonly considered to undervalue relievers.

            • http://www.twitter.com/jordansmed JGS

              Depends. bWAR is friendlier toward them than fWAR. bWAR has Mo’s 1996 at 5.4 (9th in the AL. That’s nuts), while fWAR has it at 4.4, which is about the upper limit of what relievers can do by fWAR.

              • Ted Nelson

                A lot of people believe that WAR generally underrated relievers.

                It’s nuts in your opinion, but by one measure Papelbon was the 2nd most valuable pitcher in baseball going into September of (I think it was) 2006.

                Good relievers work higher leverage innings and impact the outcomes of more games than starters.

      • Ted Nelson

        “It would be detrimental to both Nova and the Yankees to put Nova in the pen plain and simple.”

        That’s just not true, plain and simple.

        • YankeesJunkie

          So you are saying that Nova can be an elite to very good reliever in the majors?

          • Ted Nelson

            I am saying that there’s no evidence that working out of the bullpen early in your career negatively impacts your ability to be a successful MLB starter…

            I am saying that Pedro Martinez, Curt Schilling, Adam Wainwright, Matt Morris, Kenny Rogers, David Wells, and a host of other successful starters spent a full season or more (Rogers didn’t start full-time till he was 28) in relief.

            I am saying that having a better pitcher in their pen would benefit the Yankees more than having a lesser pitcher in their pen.

  • Louis

    Johan Santana wasn’t great before he ws sent back to the minors and learned that changeup. Hopefully Nova can pull one of those, as unlikely as it might be.

    • YankeesJunkie

      No reason to hope it is so unlikely. Also add Halladay to that list as well though.

    • http://twitter.com/steveh_MandAura Steve H

      When was Johan sent back to the minors to develop a changeup?

      • Gonzo

        I don’t know if he was sent down specifically to learn a change-up but he spent the first couple months in AAA during the 2002 season. It looks like he was a different pitcher after that. He was also 23, so it could have been just progression.

  • nsalem

    I don’t see how young talented pitchers get relegated to ceilings and back-end status as MLB starters before their MLB careers have basically begun. There are numerous examples of great pitchers who have broken through their supposed ceiling. For people to say Nova can never be a number one or two is just not true. To project a young pitcher to be a back of the rotation is legit. To use terms like never and ceilings are just opinions.

    • YankeesJunkie

      Agree to a certain extent, but for the most part the ceilings and what is expected of a player tend to be more true than not. There are always exceptions though.

      • nsalem

        Still disagree. Ceiling is a definitive term and should not be used if there are exceptions. These are just projections and often don’t hold true. The terms “tend to be” and “more true than not” can not be quantified and they can be misapplied. If I took all A level players and said that “as a group they have a ceiling of Double AA ball” it would be mostly true because most of them
        won’t see AAA. I feel that would be a meaningless statement just as the notion that Nova can’t be a front end guy. Nova may project out not to be a front end guy (according to some people), but it certainly doesn’t mean he will never be one.

        • Mike HC

          I don’t think ceiling and floor are meant to be definitive. Ceiling is just meant as if everything goes right scenario, and floor is the scenario where there is no improvement from that point forward. It goes without saying that every player could bust completely no matter the level prospect (whether due to injury, commitment or just performance), and every player can all of sudden gain 20 pounds of muscle and put an extra 3 miles per hour on their fastball. But those are universal to all players. The ceiling/floor is more specific to that player and represents a most likely scenario in both directions.

          • nsalem

            I guess it has become part of the jargon and I see your point.
            You are intelligent and see it for what is is a likely scenario.
            Many others fervently grasp to it as gospel and that’s where my objections lie.

  • stunna4885

    intelligent yankee fans where are u? freddy garcia is a better pitcher than 80% of yankee fans give him credit for and colon when healthy can still pitch. im sure all these guys will be better than anyone expects and all the ignorant, negative annoying fans will go silent yet again.

  • stunna4885

    these blogs are so predictable. when the yankees lose they suck. when a particular player struggles he should be traded or demoted. if the yankees lose a game girardi sucks and should be fired. thank god for the smart, realistic, quality yankee fans out there wherever they may be.

  • stunna4885

    mike axisa does a good job along with most of the other guys writing on this blog. yankee analysts is prob the best blog out there now along with this one. but there are way to many fans writing on this blog that remind me of steve lombardi who is probably thw worst yankee fan ever.

  • stunna4885

    sometimes i think fans think there being realistic when taking about partucualr players or teams but damn there is so much negativity with a team that wins 90+ games every year, makes the playoffs every year and has a shot to win every year.

  • Monteroisdinero

    Nova lox down O’s.

    /end of thread

  • Jess

    Nearly 200 comments on an Ivan Nova post????? Is he the new Joba?

  • Camilo Gerardo

    Who says colon/mitre don’t accept the assignment?