May
15

Fans Divided

By

Nope. (AP/Matt Strasen)

This morning, I was talking with the wonderful and amazing Joe Pawlikowski (also known as my boss), and he brought up a very valid point to me: there are only really two fan-related sides to the Jorge Posada story, and they are not at all exclusive to Jorge Posada.

The Yankees (and Yankees fans) have been blessed by players who are consistently great all the time, and have the money to retain these players for, theoretically, as long as they want. The upside is that the team builds a core of players that they can reliably depend on to provide a potent offence. When you’ve got guys who come in every year and tear the snot out of the ball, it’s something you never have to worry about. It’s stress off everyone in the organization’s shoulders. The additional great thing is that you have fans that grow up with these players, building both the team and the player as a brand. As a result, you have a great player who contributes to the team, an easy answer to the question of who plays every year, and a person who the fans adore.

But.

Time is not kind to athletes. Players who perform at extraordinary levels for extended periods of time are expected to, day in and day out, perform at that level. They are expected to be immune to absolutely everything: situations off the field (“Everything sucks in my life right now.”) or the very fact that everyone – yes, even Albert Pujols – slumps. There’s nothing the players or the coaches or anyone can do about that.

A struggling franchise player puts teams into two individual camps, and depending on how long and how public and how dramatic that struggle gets, those camps get more and more divided. Now, correct me if I’m wrong on these two camps:

Camp 1: A franchise player should get special treatment due to how well they’ve performed thus far. This includes (but is not limited to), an extended period of time to work themselves out, a fat contract, and the ability to, effectively, do what they want (within reason).
Camp 2: All players should be treated the same when they struggle, regardless of who they are.

Like I said, these two camps aren’t exclusive to Posada. These are the same groups that have been rallying for (or against) a drop in the lineup to the great and mighty Derek Jeter. These are the same groups that wanted one or five years on Derek’s new contract, five or twenty million dollars. I wonder if these people who fall into either camp took similar stances in regards to Bernie, who ended his career batting 6th, not cleanup. Granted, 6th isn’t the nine-hole, but it was probably still a demotion to him.

I don’t think going either way makes you more or less of a fan (and what a ‘good fan’ and a ‘bad fan’ is might be a post for another day), but I think it’s interesting to see where people fall.  People in camp one look over at people in camp two and say that they can’t stick by the guys who’ve done great and, statistically speaking, are better than their numbers and are ticketed for improvement. People in camp two say that those in camp one are too emotionally attached to these players to do what they think the team needs to do regarding them to improve the team.

Personally, I’m torn up on the matter. On one hand, no one can deny how poorly Posada is doing, even though I think it’s a terrible slump and he’ll figure himself out soon, and moving someone batting an absolute pitiful .165/.272/.349 to the ninth spot isn’t an unreasonable thing to do. MLB 9-hole hitters average .209/.262/.295 (including pitchers!) and have wracked up a thousand strikeouts already (AL only: .246/.310/.360). On the other hand, Jorge Posada is a quintessential New York Yankee, and it doesn’t take a giant leap of faith to see how being moved to ninth could be perceived as an insult, even given the circular lineup that the Yankees use day-in and day-out.

Which side do you fall on? For Jeter? For Posada? And if you fall on different sides for two different players, why?

(Side note: This absolutely terrible team that includes both Posada and Jeter and can’t hit with RISP still leads the AL in runs/game, OBP, and SLG, and is second in walks and OPS+.)

Categories : Musings
  • first time lawng time

    Camp 2 for Jeter. A mix for Jorge. Actually camp 2 for everyone but Jorge. Why? I care about winning, nit precious memories and satisfying egos.
    Jorge is an exception, because he has always been one of my favorites.

    • Adam B

      If they benched him that’s one thing. but being the teams DH is still very important to the teams success. They put him there so they could have his bat in the lineup everyday. Personally I thyink Jorge has 1 more year left of .500 slugging or so… Being dropped in the lineup gives you an opportunity to get your **** together while in a much less pressure spot in the lineup… Again its not like they benched him, cut him, or sent him to the minors…

  • http://www.twitter.com/jordansmed JGS

    (Side note: This absolutely terrible team that includes both Posada and Jeter and can’t hit with RISP still leads the AL in runs/game, OBP, and SLG, and is second in walks and OPS+.)

    SHOW ME THE YANKEES’ LAST FIVE STARTS!

    Put me down in Camp 2, mostly. Guys of different skill levels should be treated differently, and what a person’s skill level is now is a function of what it used to be, at least to some degree. Franchise players usually get more time to figure out their slumps not because they are franchise players, but because they have performed exceptionally well for long periods of time. Not coincidentally, those same skills are how they became franchise players in the first place.

  • http://www.simdynasty.com/index.jsp?refer=Jeety Jeety

    I think we should be patient with guys that have helped us to a point… Jeter’s been better of late, and there is no ready replacement that can give you what he does at the plate.

    Posada is in a bad spot because his performance has been atrocious and his replacement is ready and waiting.

  • the other Steve S.

    If you can’t hit your weight by mid-May, moving down in the order should be viewed as a gift, no matter who you are. The team is trying to win, after all. Allowing for six weeks on the Interstate seems like quite a bit of deference.

  • http://twitter.com/bryanl26 Bryan L

    Camp 1 for both. Once you establish yourself with the team, you can enter Camp 1. No specific way to enter Camp 1 either.

    I tried as hard as I could not to use the… True Yankee, phrase.

    • Cuso

      haha, but you did anyways

  • mark

    I personally don’t see the big deal about batting 7 v 8 v 9. After the first time through it doesn’t matter.

    • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

      I personally don’t see the big deal about batting 7 v 8 v 9.

      Probably because you’re not a 39 year old guy who’s spent the past 30-odd years of his life (both as an amateur and a professional) batting 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, or 6th.

      • Wil Nieves Number 1 Fan

        It’s Posada’s responsibility to come to terms with his age. If he can’t handle being dropped in the order then he should be dropped from the roster. Little harsh, but that’s how I feel.

      • Karen

        Exactly!

      • Karen

        Exactly!

  • http://danielslifka.wordpress.com Jerome S.

    camp 2, I think. But then again, I think it’s very circumstantial.

    • http://www.twitter.com/deanezag Zack

      Agreed.
      If a 30 year old has a bad month or two, you leave him alone. No problems letting guys work things out. As we’ve seen with Swisher and tons of other guys, players have bad months, halfs, and even years. But when you’re 35-40 and you look old, your bat looks old, your defense look old, then don’t expect me to have blind faith.

      Look at Giambi, dude still wants to play so I support him 100% because he knows his role at this stage. He took 1.75m and took a MiL deal this year.

  • pat

    I root for the laundry. Once you start hurting the team is bye bye. Its not like these guys have been playing for pennies, they have been handsomely rewarded twice and thrice over for their production on the field. But when they can’t hack ot anymore and we have readily available replacements (moreso in Posada’s case) I have no problem cutting them lose. Good memories don’t win ballgames. Good players do.

  • CMP

    This analysis is far too simplistic with there being many areas of gray between these 2 “camps.”.

    • 24fan

      This.

      I don’t think anyone can practically be in camp 1. If the Yankees called up Jorge Vazquez today and over the next week he hit .100 with no power, then he would be sent back down. Now if Cano hit .100 during that same week, Cano wouldn’t get sent down. Camp 1, as described here, completely removes context from the conversation.

      • 24fan

        *Camp 2, not camp 1.

      • http://www.twitter.com/deanezag Zack

        Camp 1: A franchise player should get special treatment due to how well they’ve performed thus far.

        Unless that’s been edited in since you posted, I’m not sure what you’re talking about.

        • http://www.twitter.com/deanezag Zack

          Crap nevermind

  • mbonzo

    I’m not a fan of SSS, but no one should get special treatment on a team of 25 equal players. Posada should be be batting 9th, or at least have a week off or so. The issue is, we don’t really know why Posada took himself out of the lineup. Its easy to say that he should be trying his hardest every day, but when you’re coming off a possible hall of fame career and coming to terms with no longer catching and retirement, I can hardly blame him for his frustration. I think we have to remember what he’s done in the past, he doesn’t always have the best judgment but this is a small blip on the screen for not only his career but also his 2011 season.

    I think I fall in both categories here. I say all players should be treated fairly, but understand why Posada would be frustrated with that. Would a month and a half of bad sales from one of the best salesmen be enough for your boss to say you’re the weakest in the company? Should that salesman be put in charge of valuable accounts? Its hard to be in someone else’s shoes, but Posada needs time to think. So I’m not gonna jump on the “Screw Posada” bandwagon to take out my frustration with the team. The one thing he could have earned from his tenure is not a higher spot in the lineup, but patience from the fans. Thats a hard thing to find in the limelight of New York.

  • Dave

    Posada can get as mad and as frustrated as he wants — but you can’t ask out of a game where you might’ve helped the team win. Trying to cover up your inexcusable decision with mystery “back stiffness” (maybe Posada’s agent came up with that one after Cashman’s mid-game comments)only made it worse. Don’t tell me about how he’s a hard-nosed, old school gamer any longer. He punked out — just like he does with most plays at the plate. Case closed.

  • Sal

    1. Bench Posada.
    2. Send Cervelli to Scranton.
    3. Call up Montero.
    4. Call up Jorge Vazquez.

    • emac2

      3. send gloves/mitts to charity

      • emac2

        it sort of looks like a 5

      • jetrer

        for all 4 players

    • jetrer

      When would both Montero and Vazquez play. They would be competing for the same ABs. No sense in calling up both since they both are right handed and would rarely if ever be in the lineup at the same time.

    • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

      1. Bench Posada.
      2. Send Cervelli to Scranton.
      3. Call up Montero.
      4. Call up Jorge Vazquez.

      You left out:

      5. Petition Commissioner Selig to allow us to play with a 26-man active roster.

      Unless “bench” means “cut”.

  • Greg

    Don’t think it’s as easy as separating this into two camps. It’s really a constantly evolving and fluid situation. For Derek Jeter, should he be treated the same way as a rookie that’s just been called up? Of course not. But should he be allowed to do whatever he wants? Well, that doesn’t work either. Fortunately, Jeter is the type of person that just wants to show up every day and play which is really all you can ask for.

    This Posada situation is complicated. Regardless of what anyone says, no one really knows what happened in Girardi’s office yesterday before the game except Girardi and Posada. I believe that Posada has put in the time and the body of work to be able to go into his manager’s (and former teammate’s) office and ask for a day off. I think it’s easy for us to look at Posada’s less-than-stellar numbers this season and attack him for what he did but that’s not right. I’m in no way trying to defend what Posada did last night. But I think it’s important to step back and look at what he has done in his career and allow a veteran to take a day.

    • Preston

      I agree, while I think that the two camps Hannah outlines are the extremes, I would hope most people fall somewhere in the middle. Things are usually never black and white, they are with very few exceptions gray. While it might be more difficult to try and navigate a middle path, that is what Brian Cashman and Joe Girardi must do.

      • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

        If you’re not first, you’re last.

        Sincerely,
        Reese Bobby

  • Bob Stone

    A quote from Billy Martin the the Miller Lite Beer commercials (when they were debating less filling versus tasts great) with George Steinbrenner sums up my stance on this whole matter: “I feel strongly both ways.”

    Management has to do what’s best for the team . . . as hard as it may be politically . . . legacies be damned. But can’t they do it with some class and grace and avoid this media-frenzy?

  • emac2

    I don’t support either option. Not all players are or should be treated the same but you do make some exceptions for the players that earn it either by production or intangibles/leadership. On the other hand no is allowed to quit on the team at the last minute or to create a divided clubhouse.

    The clubhouse issue is the bigger one for me. Jeter and Posadas demands for massively over-market contracts, resistance to even considering position or lineup changes that might help the team and insistence that failure to pay far more then anyone else is a personal insult lead to choosing sides and dividing the team.

    Neither player is an asset any longer on the field if you include any calculation of their compensation. While their legacy gets them more money then they deserve and while they will be allowed to hurt the team a little by playing them out of position either in the lineup or on the field. If they are going to battle management they should both be let go. Jeter isn’t a problem yet but if I hear anyone else on the team bash the ownership or management I just want them gone.

    The Yankees are THE reason players make what they do in this game. I’m already a bit disgusted that we have to pay even our most compensated players a premium in most cases. How much will it cost to get them to an old timers game? Can we really expect them to just keep doing us favors their whole lives just because we throw a little money at them? – That was sarcasm BTW

  • SodaPopinski

    you play to win the game.

    • http://twitter.com/bryanl26 Bryan L

      /HermEdwards’d.

  • Greg

    Posada not in the lineup today.

    • Xstar7

      What source?

    • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

      Not shocking at all.

  • http://www.yankeeanalysts.com/ Matt Imbrogno

    Camp two. When you start hurting your team with your performance, your noose gets a little tighter; but, to be fair, your rope might be a bit longer.

  • The Guns of the Navarone (a mushroom could layn’ mothafucka, mothafucka)

    I don’t think he was expected to be. He hasn’t hit a pitch thrown by a lefty all season. Won’t do anything to stop the speculation though.

  • Greg

    Star Ledger first to report but others are on it now. Looks like this:

    Jeter, SS
    Granderson, CF
    Teixeira, 1B
    Rodriguez, 3B
    Cano, 2B
    Swisher, RF
    Jones, DH
    Martin, C
    Gardner, LF

    • J-Livin’

      You read my mind

    • Xstar7

      Things aren’t looking too good for old man George. He needs to get his shit together or he won’t last till the end of the season.

    • first time lawng time

      If I were in charge I’d tell Jorge not to feel bad about batting 9th. All his teammates suck, too; I’d have everyone batting 9th at the moment now if I could. The only thing is he’s been sucking the longest.

      Basically everyones in a funk right now, and we shouldn’t be singling out Jorge until his teammates start to pick it up.
      If his teammates start hitting and they’re still losing, then we have a problem. But right now the entire offense is lousy, so I think it’s a little premature for Jorge.

      • http://www.mystiqueandaura.com/ JMK

        If I were in charge I’d tell Jorge not to feel bad about batting 9th. All his teammates suck, too; I’d have everyone batting 9th at the moment now if I could. The only thing is he’s been sucking the longest.

        Except, that just isn’t entirely true. There’s a difference between slumping and sucking.

        • Tom Zig

          I think she meant they suck as in right now as in they are slumping, not like suck as in like Jeff Francoeur’s whole baseball career.

        • first time lawng time

          I didn’t mean suck as in forever or career wise.

          I meant suck right now, as in a slump.

          Basically, the entire offense is struggling at the moment, not just Jorge, so we shouldn’t be quick in making judgements about him.

          • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

            Qualifying statements, FTLT. Make them your friend.

  • forensic

    You can’t just have two black and white camps for this. Otherwise, camp 1 turns into a team of manny’s and camp two turns into a team of 40 year old ripkens, jeters, and griffeys.

  • J-Livin’

    What time do they usually put out the lineup for an 8 o’clock game?

  • Darebear

    Will Posada play in the near future?

    • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

      How near is “near”?

      I bet he plays in the TB series. Batting 9th. Put me down for Tuesday.

      • King George

        Exactly. Ain’t no way Posada is in the lineup vs. Lester and Price.

        • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

          My guess was based less on “Should he play against Price” and more on “How long will it take Jorge to man up and go to Girardi and apologize and be willing to bat 9th?”

          I was giving it one more day. Lester/Price didn’t really enter into my calculus, it was all about the pride/embarrassment/coping of a 39 year old competitive athlete who’s not that great anymore but doesn’t want to admit it.

  • http://captnsblog.wordpress.com/ Will

    Camp 1 for both…Otherwise, why have any loyalty at all? Just root for the favorite every year. If we don’t value the history of our favorite sports teams, why do we even bother investing so much time in the present.

    • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

      I think you’re missing something, there.

      Camp A places primary loyalty on the players and secondary loyalty on the team. Camp B places primary loyalty on the team and secondary loyalty on the players. The fans in Camp A aren’t “loyal” and those in Camp B aren’t “disloyal”, that’s far too binary and boversimplified.

      • http://captnsblog.wordpress.com/ Will

        I understand the dichotomy, but if you don’t have any loyalty to very special individuals, why have any at all. Is the uniform really that sacred? The point of being a fan, at least to me, is to be loyal to the team as well as those players who define its history. The two go hand-in-hand. Otherwise, if we really only care about who the best player is right this moment, why not just pick our favorite team on a week-by-week basis?

        In other words, I don’t think either camp makes much sense. If you don’t have loyalty to elements of both, then being fan is a silly endeavor.

        • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

          In other words, I don’t think either camp makes much sense. If you don’t have loyalty to elements of both, then being fan is a silly endeavor.

          I’m with you on that… which is why I don’t really get why you started your comment by announcing you were in Camp 1. Your initial comment is far less reasoned and nuanced than your second.

  • Chris13

    I am a fan of the New York Yankees. Not Jorge Posada, not Derek Jeter, not Brett Gardner.

    Yes, I’ve grown attached to some Yankee players, but that doesn’t mean I am going to put up with an over-the-hill veteran. When they stop performing I want to see them gone. I have a memory bank full of good memories to turn to when I turn to my friends and brag about what that player once was. But what a player once was isn’t going to show up and help the Yankees win the AL East.

  • Greg

    Multiple sources saying Posada apologized to Girardi calling yesterday “a bad day.”

    • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

      Good stuff.

      Links?

    • 24fan

      This is what I expected (or at least hoped for). Jorge let his pride get the best of him yesterday. It happens. He realized he made a mistake and is moving forward and that is all we can reasonably expect of him. This is why you don’t overreact in the heat of the moment when the situation hasn’t played itself out.

      Assuming of course this really happened.

    • first time lawng time

      If that’s true, I like it.
      I mean rather than getting on Posada for how he acted, let’s try to see how he was feeling.
      He spent most of his career batting nit 9th, he’s been extremely talented, and he’s also been frustrated by his lack of production.
      He wants to help the team win, and he knows he’s struggling right now so he feels he isn’t doing his job. He feels he’s letting the team down.
      Is he mad at Gieardi for putting him 9th? Probably. Does he know he deserves and is he mad/frustrated with himself for that? Probably.
      I think that a lot of the way he acted had to do with frustration with himself. I don’t think he meant to be rude/throw a hussy fit, but it was heat if the moment.
      He’s a human, and we all act like that at times. Rather than hate him for it, we should forgive him.

      • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

        I love this FTLT. Keep rolling with this version, she’s brilliant.

        • first time lawng time

          Thankyou!

          You know, it really does help when you put things into perspective (ie: not freaking out about one game during the regular season and that sort of stuff)

          • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

            Luke: “You know, I did feel something. I could almost see the remote.”
            Obi-Wan: “That’s good. You have taken your first step into a larger world…”

  • jetrer

    I vote for Camp 1 with a severe emphasis on the “within reason” statement. I think stars like Jeter and Posada should get extended time to work out of slumps, but they should not be allowed to put themselves before the good of the team or throw hissy fits and refuse to play.

  • Sal

    I don’t feel bad for a guy who is in the last year of a $52 Million contract, not to mention how much he earned before his current deal.

    There are millions of people who are desperate to find a job.

    Posada is an embarassment to mankind.

    • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

      Posada is an embarassment to mankind.

      Hyperbole much?

    • King George

      Not to mention how much he DIDN’T DESERVE the $52.4m contract when he was 36.

      • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

        It was a risky contract, due to age, decline, and injury risk. But when healthy, Jorge absolutely produced like a 13M a year catcher. He produced like a 15-16M a year catcher, frankly.

        We probably shouldn’t have given him the length of the deal, but he absolutely deserved the AAV.

  • Kostas

    This was an excellent article. Thank you for posting.

    • first time lawng time

      I thought it was crappy and useless. Hannah, youvare the worst writer here ever and I have no idea why mike and Ben and Joe keep you around. This was the worst article I have ever read.
      Lol just kidding. I thought it was a good read and I liked it. Nice job.

      (Those haters can be real annoying and obnoxious and rude, though, no?)

  • Greg

    From SI’s Jon Heyman:

    Jorge: “it’s not about jorge posada. Its about the team … I let some people down.”

    • mbonzo

      Jon Heyman, “Girardi still should have told posada in advance about demotion. Batting him 9th serves no purpose, except to annoy”

      http://twitter.com/#!/SI_JonHe.....2647872512

      Yea, I’m sure Girardi put him in the 9th spot thinking, “How could I piss off Posada today.” Expert analysis.

      • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

        Heyman does have a point there, though: Girardi probably should have anticipated the problem Jorge would have had with hitting 9th and warned him FAR ahead of time that “unless you start picking it up soon, we’re going to have to bat you 9th, it’s just the way it is.” So that it’s still frustrating and humiliating, but it’s not a shock or a surprise.

        Heyman’s failure, though, is that he doesn’t know that Girardi didn’t do exactly that already. Girardi might have warned Posada weeks ago about the inevitability of this move and it didn’t make a difference and Jorge still threw a shit-fit.

        • mbonzo

          I absolutely agree, we have no idea what happened between his Posada’s demotion. Girardi should have told him earlier, and we don’t know if he did.

          I don’t like how Heyman is insinuating that Girard made this move to simply piss of Posada. Its just another narrative that he creates to try and grab readers’ attention. I’m sure he’ll have a whole Girardi v. Posada post on ESPN soon.

  • Greg

    For those Yankee fans on twitter, here are some recommended follows providing this news.

    JackCurryYES
    Buster_ESPN
    SI_JonHeyman
    Ledger_Yankees
    BruceBeck4NY

  • A-Rod’s Wingman

    Camp 1. Historically great players deserve a chance to work themselves out of slumps, I have more patience for Derek Jeter than I would say…Eduardo Nunez.

  • Kostas

    It is interesting to read the comments posted versus what is posted during games. Granted during games, I think that most people are at no higher than 5% of seriousness with what they say, but that gives the elitist something to mock so it is a win win.

    Most of the comments here are swaying towards the middle of these two camps. But logically I think that most are slightly weighted towards camp 1. Fans tend to take an absolute position on a player once they begin their decline without giving the player any period of adjustment – which is not allowed for anyone who plays for the Yankees, especially those that have been major contributors of the many championships from 96′ to present. But, as fans, consideration needs to be given to some extent, to the player who has spent their entire career performing at a level that exceeds the majority of his peers and still feels that “he can get it done”. It seems that players are the last people to finally accept their inevitable decline to the point that they even dismiss severe injury to keep performing – think Lawrence Taylor in Any Given Sunday.

    As for both Posada and Jeter, they have given the Yankee fans plenty to celebrate. They have both had their share of ups and downs but have remained with the Yankees and remain part of their formula for success. They both will continue to piss off the fan base from game to game or even AB to AB but the alternative, at least within the Yankee organization and how the Yankees evaluate and use their talent does not leave many options. Jeter will get his 3000th hit and then will go on a tear ending the season somewhere in the .290. Look for Posada to feast during interleague play and end the season in the .260 range with decent power numbers….. just my feeling.

  • David, Jr.

    Camp 2 – The point is to win games. If they were team players they would have gone to Joe and said “Do what you need to do. I am fine wherever I hit in the lineup.” Jeter may have done that already. Posada has proven that he doesn’t belong by his actions as soon as he was being dropped in the order.

  • bonestock94

    His BABIP is at least 100 points lower than it should be. The guy didn’t lose it 100% in one offseason, he’s mired in an awful slump. He can’t pull himself out of games though, that’s unprofessional. He needs to get his shit straight and hit his way out of the 9 hole.

    • first time lawng time

      Yeah it unprofessional but I think it stemmed from his frustration. I just think he needs to let it all marinate a little and he’ll get over it.

      The entire team and organization is in a funk right now. They’ll get through it.

      • http://twitter.com/steveh_mandaura Steve H

        needs to let it all marinate a little

        Hopefully he doesn’t let it all marinate the way he self marinates his hands.

        • bonestock94

          Thanks, you just ruined BBQ for me forever

  • paul a

    its time.cut ties with jorge and bring up montero and vasquez.this team is getting to be too much like the ny rangers of the 80’s and 90’s. superstars past their prime.the home grown talent did us well.but now its time for the next generation to step in.

    • first time lawng time

      The Rangers won the Stanley Cup in the 90s.

      And I think it’s a little premature to cut ties with Jorge.

      Yeah he’s not hitting well right now, and when you’re a DH that means you have very little value right now,but he’s a potentiol HOFer, so I think he deserves the shot to right the ship if he can.

      He’s probably going to retire at the end of the season anyway, so he may as well be allowed to get one more championship,

      it’s not like ge was terrible last year, too and this is a continuation.

      Let’s just see what happens.

  • http://twitter.com/JoeRo23 The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

    “…what a ‘good fan’ and a ‘bad fan’ is might be a post for another day…”

    FWIW, I vote an emphatic no on whether that post should ever be written.

    • bonestock94

      Speak for yourself, I wanna see that shitshow

      • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

        Rose: Good fan
        All the rest of us communist illegitimate alien sleeper cell terriosts: bad fans

  • JobaWockeeZ

    I’m in the camp of favoring winning. Winning now, tomorrow, next year and forever. No one should get special treatment if they are hindering winning.

    • JobaWockeeZ

      So on my opinion about Jorge being taken out…

      I thought it was a bit bush league but then again he would probably be like every non Granderson hitter last night so nothing would change.

    • Leo

      Okay Mr. Sheen.

    • first time lawng time

      Duh! Winning!

  • A Gritty Dude’s Gritty Dude

    Levine should just outsource this one to Theo for a day and have him DFA both…Dude loves throwing franchise icons under the bus.

  • theyankeewarrior

    I’m in the camp of putting the best players on the field. Jesus Montero is better than Jorge Posada at everything and Derek Jeter is better than Nunez.

    So call up the Jesus and give him a bat.

  • Hughesus Christo

    These are difficult situations, but the Yankees would be hard pressed to do a worse job thus far. I’ve come to the conclusion that there are sociopathic assholes in control of the franchise and that’s just how its going to be. When did Bernie Williams and Tino Martinez publicly feud with the franchise? Never happened because (90s) George wouldn’t allow this crap to happen. Randy Levine and Lil’ Stein(s) need to did up some class.

    • gargoyle

      Bernie did not go quietly and neither did Torre for that matter. If I recall Joe was insulted by their one year contract offer at the highest salary of any manager.

    • jetrer

      Huge difference in personalities. Jorge is very emotional and hot headed. Tino and Bernie were not. That said, Bernie still did not have a happy departure from the organization. He was very upset about being put out to pasture.

  • Pat D

    According to ESPN, Posada apologized to Girardi, will apologize to Cashman, and isn’t playing tonight, though that’s probably more to do with Lester pitching.

    • Pat D

      And I see that’s now a post on the site. Silly me.

      • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

        You’re slipping, Pat. I hate to do it, but I’m batting you 9th for the next two days.

  • Mister D

    I empathize with Jorge, but I cannot condone his actions yesterday. For the moment, I will take what everyone has said at face value, and not pretend that there is some conspiracy to hide the truth (there may be, but without evidence, it would be foolish to speculate).

    I love Jorge. I said for years he was the most underrated Yankee, and given his position often gave the lineup an edge over teams in the postseason. I would argue he is a borderline hall of famer, not nearly as good as the top catchers in the hall, but good enough to slot in with some of the lesser players. I wouldn’t vote him in, but I don’t think his election would be an embarassment either.

    That said, the man is 40 (as am I), and there is no secret that he is one of the oldest players in the game, and most players are gone from the game before they enter their fifth decade. He has to know that his time is short, and that he isn’t the player he was just 4 years ago.

    He admitted as much last week, when in an interview he thanked Girardi for keeping him in the game, and acknoweleged he would not be so patient were he in Joe’s shoes.

    Then you look at what has been happening the past two weeks, and what happened Friday night. Same story, every night. Men on base, can’t do nothin’ with them. And here were the Yankees, just knocked out of first base, losing their first home series to the (much younger, much poorer) Royals in over a decade, going against the surging Red Sox on national television. A team meeting had been called the night before. I have little doubt management let everyone know there would be changes,and that the sloppy play we’d seen would not continue.

    It is hard to believe that Jorge didn’t see this coming.

    Jorge has long been the clubhouse enforcer, the one to hold other players to high standards, to call them out for slacking or for boneheaded stunts. It is unfathomable that he would have let another player slide for doing this. Even if the “back” story is true, it was his responsibility to tell the management.

    Now, I do understand his perspective. He has lost his catching job. Everyone seems to know he isn’t coming back, and yet that’s all he wants. What sliver of hope he had to change Cashman’s mind diminishes with every punchless at bat. To get dropped down… i get it is a lot to swallow, and I would understand if he had simply told Girardi and Cashman that, with all this, he needs to get his head on straight, needs to think through where he is, and where he is going. I could respect that, and I think all he’s done the past 15 years has earned him a night off. But for him to throw a fit, to not tell his manager he was having back trouble… just wrong. Not unforgivable, but wrong.

    For those who want to put blame on Joe and Cash, I have to wonder why? Jorge has had a month and a half. The team has been slumping for two weeks. I think they have shown him more than enough patience (even Jorge said so last week). They didn’t boot him out of the lineup. And they didn’t single him out – Swisher got dropped down as well.

    Could they have handled it better? Hard to say. We weren’t at the team meeting the night before, nor were we in the office when Joe told Jorge. We don’t know how tactful he was. But I don’t think it matters. We have no way of knowing one way or the other if they could have mitigated Jorge’s response, and in the end, Jorge has to be responsible for himself.

    I’ve even heard some complain about the timing, that it was humiliating to do this for a nationally televised Red Sox game. To which I would point out the following: Had you seen the embarassing play the past three games? Did you want that to continue before the entire nation on Saturday and Sunday, against your greatest rivals? And don’t you think, since it was a Yankees/Red Sox series, that the press would have been given PLENTY of material to discuss beyond Jorge’s position in the lineup? Drop him for the Royals or the Rays, and you know Jorge’s getting the headline. WIth the Sox in town, it would have gotten far less attention. Or it would have, if not for Jorge being Jorge.

    • The209

      A touch more ‘whimsy’ and you’re moving up to the weekend slot

    • JMK

      Well said.

    • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

      All kinds of this.

  • The BIG 3

    There’s a 3rd camp you may not have considered. How about a franchise player should be treated with a special respect, given his tenure and contribution. Like I wrote earlier:

    If I were jorge I’d be pissed off too. Based on what many scouts have concluded about Jesus and how jorge performed last year, why isn’t he the backup catcher? Why can’t he go 2 games a week like Varitek in Boston. Because of Cervelli? because he’d be worse than Tek?? really??. He caught 83 games last year but he can’t be slotted for 50 games this year, his last in baseball?

    Ridiculous. Give em hell, Po.

    • King George

      Apparently, you haven’t seen Jorge play catcher from 2006-2010.

      • The BIG 3

        I have, and agree that he’s not the greatest. but I was referring to alternatives. How much better is Cervelli? Tek? Jesus?

        It’s his last year in the game and far better alternatives at catcher don’t exist. Letemplay.

    • Mister D

      How about we gave him all kinds of respect when at 36 years old we Jorge a 3 year contract that made him the highest paid catcher in baseball, only to give him a 4th year (that would be this one) because he threatened to bolt to Queens.

  • King George

    I know this is off-topic, but can anyone find a full list or provide a full list of the Red Sox “legends” Theo has DFA’d?

  • The209

    I feel bad for kids under 13 or so who can only remember one championship. In other words, it’s time for these 2 to go!

  • Jarrod

    Camp 2 for sure.
    No sporting team should ever allow ANY player to become bigger than the team/organisation. This is when teams get into trouble.
    Dropping Posada in the order is the best thing for the team at the moment, end of story.
    If/when he sorts it out it can be reviewed.