Jun
09

Joba diagnosed with torn ligament, TJS likely

By

Joba Chamberlain has a torn ligament in his throwing elbow, Yankee manager Joe Girardi just announced in his pre-game press conference. While the Yankee pitcher hasn’t shown any symptoms of a serious injury or pain, the MRI, Girardi said, showed a tear that will “likely” require Tommy John surgery. It is unclear how much time he will miss, but it seems as though we’ve seen the last of Joba for 2011.

Joba, according to Peter Botte, is “sending [his] MRI results to [Dr. James] Andrews but not visiting him yet.” The right-handed who, said he “shed a few tears,” repeatedly said that he had no pain. “I’m not giving up,” he said.

With $17.75 million worth of relievers already on the disabled list, this news is a huge blow to the Yankees’ bullpen depth. They have posted the best bullpen in the American League so far this year, but the club will be stretched to the max as Brian Cashman works to fill some holes. Joba, 2-0 with a 2.83 ERA, had seemingly embraced his relief role this year. He had struck out 24 while walking just seven and was powering fastballs past hitters with a confidence not seen since mid-2009.

With Rafael Soriano out for a while, Joba had emerged as the club’s primary set-up role. That job will now be handed to David Robertson, and in the short term, Luis Ayala and Boone Logan will be expected to pick up the slack. The club still has Mariano and a potential ace in the hole.

Along with the Joba news, the Yanks announced that Phil Hughes was consistently hitting 92 on the radar gun and will begin his arduous Spring Training-like rehab process. He’ll start next week for the Gulf Coast League Yankees and will likely need most of the 30-day rehab clock to get his arm strength and stamina back up. While the Yankees’ starting rotation is skating on thin ice these days, the Yankees may decide to keep Hughes in the bullpen for depth. I believe that decision will depend upon whether Yanks’ GM Brian Cashman can more easily procure a starting pitcher or a reliever on the trade market.

For the Yankees and their fans, this news will inevitably be viewed through the lens of Joba’s ever-changing roles. He was a starter, a reliever, a starter, a reliever and a starter again before moving into a relief spot seemingly permanently. He suffered a mysterious shoulder injury in 2008 and was an injury risk when he was drafted in 2006. The Yanks say they kept him as a reliever to better manage the load on his shoulder, but you know what they say about the best-laid plans.

Personally, I’m a big fan of Joba’s, and I’m more saddened by this news than I thought. While this development represents a blow to the Yanks’ bullpen, the Yanks can weather another bullpen injury far better than they can ineffective pitching from A.J. Burnett, Freddy Garcia or Ivan Nova. I will still trot out the 62 t-shirt this year and know that Brian Cashman has a tough task ahead of him.

Categories : Injuries

446 Comments»

  1. Greg says:

    Son of a bitch.

  2. Jerkface says:

    He should rehab as a starter

  3. swishers fauxhawk says:

    Well, this sucks.

  4. ral says:

    well that’s some luck right there…gotta make a trade now, right?

  5. Ricky says:

    Kerry Wood?

  6. Cuso says:

    Ef you, Rafael Soriano. You POS.

  7. [price is right horn]

  8. Erica says:

    Someone hold me. I can’t face the rest of the season without Joba. Ugh.

  9. S says:

    F**k f**k f**k sonofabitch

  10. Mister Delaware says:

    Atleast we fucking protected his arm.

    • TonyO says:

      Best comment ever!!!

      Mister Delaware
      “Atleast we fucking protected his arm”

      • Mister Delaware says:

        This should be saved to show my friends I’m not a completely detached saber-robot. 15 minutes in, I’m still annoyed, still wonder if the team helped kill him, but would balance that with the flipside of “maybe it would have happened sooner or, worse, to his shoulder had he started”. I don’t know. And, like Ben said, I just like Joba because he likes baseball and being a Yankee. And because I bet a lot of dickheads who live within a 5 mile radius of me are celebrating this.

  11. icebird753 says:

    I normally don’t say this, but SHIT

  12. Matt says:

    I have said for TWO YEARS to trade this clown while he still has value. The ruined him. Will they admit it now? Once a 22 year old has a shoulder injury he is 1000 times more likley to get injured again.

    The treatment of him has been a disgrace.

  13. Pasqua says:

    What a year we’re having this week…

  14. Monteroisdinero says:

    Joba had a beard in the dugout last night. Not allowed. He knew he was done for the season. This season is getting more and more interesting by the moment.

    NY Yankee baseball is like going to medical school this year.

  15. Stevis says:

    2011….. R.I.P. NEW YORK YANKEES……..
    Francesa just said Tommy John….holy shit

  16. theyankeewarrior says:

    Add set-up man to the list of needs next to shortstop, power bat, #2 starter and LOOGY.

    Sweeeeeet offseason Yankees.

    • The offseason wasn’t optimal, but it was certainly something we could overcome if we had good health.

      That good health looks like it’s not going to happen, though. It’s hard for any team to overcome the loss of a #2 starter and three of your top five relievers. Our degree of difficulty is climbing at uncomfortable rates.

      • theyankeewarrior says:

        Yup. This is why I (and most of us) were so intent on getting Cliff Lee. Because if we had a nasty 1-2 punch to go along with a top 5 offense, we would be able to stay above water all year even with injuries like this.

        Basically, our offseason consisted of not getting Cliff Lee and making some solid minor-signings that filled the production that Swisher, Posada, Jeter, Pettitte etc. left by sucking/retiring.

        We need to make moves. Fast.

        Time for Cashman to earn his loot.

        Beltran/K-Rod/Jackson/Soriano/Feleciano/Hughes/Martin/Chavez/Montero could help.

    • Ted Nelson says:

      I know I shouldn’t bother, but…

      The Yankees have the best SLG in baseball… how is power bat a need?

  17. Jeff Karstens, Male Model says:

    K-Rod

  18. Pat D says:

    Head. Hit. Desk.

  19. mbonzo says:

    I wonder if this has been the issue with Joba, instead of the shoulder problem.

  20. Cuso says:

    TJS?! My God. See ya in Tampa Joba…..in 2013!

  21. Smallz says:

    Really terrible news…. fuck.

  22. JobaWockeeZ says:

    Time for a Montero for KRod swap.

  23. Mike Axisa says:

    Haha, Tim Norton’s hurt too. Can’t make this up.

    • It’s the Reverse Curse of Mark Teixeira.

      /JohnHenry’d

    • Kevin G. says:

      inb4 CC feels tingling in his arm today

      /knocks on wood

    • Smallz says:

      After all this, I still dont wanna see them empty the farm for K-Rod and Beltran. Bring up Pope. Bring up Kontos. Try something. I swear if they trade Montero or Banuelos or Betances, any of those guys for Carlos Beltran and K-Rod I am gunna lose my fucking shit.

      • Stevis says:

        absolutely correct!

      • I swear if they trade Montero or Banuelos or Betances, any of those guys for Carlos Beltran and K-Rod I am gunna lose my fucking shit.

        Relax, if Cashman trades for Beltran and KRod he’ll be taking on like 15-20M in salary, which means the Mets aren’t getting anything more than a few David Phelps-level B-/C+ fringy prospects.

        Montero/Banuelos/Betances aren’t going anywhere except for a stud frontline pitcher with his prime in front of him.

        • JobaWockeeZ says:

          Key words is if Cashman. I don’t like how he got overruled here. I’m probably paranoid but last year apparently someone was even considering Jesus for Soria.

          • Cashman probably bought a gorilla suit in the wake of the Soriano overrule. He’s ready to pull a Theo if Levine pulls a Lucchino and trades away his crown jewel prospect.

            • The BIG 3 says:

              Montero/Banuelos/Betances aren’t going anywhere except for a stud frontline pitcher with his prime in front of him.

              Bookmarked. I’m betting one of them will be. At this point, one of them must be because this rotation cannot survive by itself, and it sure as shit can’t survive with what’s left of relievers. They need a starter, ASAP.

              Also: Being that you’re an intelligent man, would you mind explaining to me why you think Montero is the crown jewell? (personally, I believe either of the B&B boyz are far more valuable). Forget his ranking – which many have already said wouldn’t be that high if he can’t catch, which he can’t, and forget your intelligence sapping fanboyism for a sec too. How can a DH be the crown jewell when they’re being bought for peanuts in MLB?

              I’ve always thought your comments on Montero were pure homerism, but whatever; care to defend this stance of yours which makes no sense to me?

              • YanksFanInBeantown says:

                Well, KLaw has him ranked 3rd even though he thinks of Montero as a DH so…

                And unless you go to SWB games regularly, I’m not sure how you’re more qualified than Cash to tell if he can catch or not. I haven’t been hearing anything bad about his defense for the last few months, so I’m assuming no news is good news.

                • The BIG 3 says:

                  Law thinks Montero’s a DH with a great bat.

                  Which I agree with. Jesus seems to have a generational bat, albeit without a position in a league that values DH’s pretty low. Besides, with Arod, in 2 years the last thing the Yankees are going to need is another DH.

                  I think every other GM in baseball realizes this, as well.

              • How can a DH be the crown jewell when they’re being bought for peanuts in MLB?

                Because the DHs that are being bought for peanuts in MLB are either old, injury prone, have platoon splits, suck generally, or are all of the above.

                David Ortiz is a DH who was none of those, and he got paid a fat shitload of a deal, was a perennial allstar and carried his team. Jim Thome, Travis Hafner, Paul Konerko, Adam Dunn, Carlos Delgado, Mark Teixeira, etc. All great bats with no position (other than 1B, which is last resort and which Montero would probably be moving to if Tex wasn’t blocking him. Prospect wise, there’s little to no difference between 1B and DH).

                DH’s who are young and hit the shit out of the ball are most definitely crown jewels. Montero’s bat has otherworldly potential; bats that good force themselves into the lineup and are worthy of true bluechip status, positional challenges be damned.

                • The BIG 3 says:

                  Dunn, I’ll give you. But Ortiz doesn’t count because those contracts aren’t being given anymore. Same with Konerko and Thome. The best FA DH last year was Vlad, and he received $8m, of which $3m of which was deferred.

                  Come on, admit it; these guys just aren’t marketable anymore.

                • The BIG 3 says:

                  Also:

                  which Montero would probably be moving to if Tex wasn’t blocking him

                  I didn’t know Tex was on your shitlist but I disagree; he is a valuable defender, and your opinion is the first I’ve read that compared him to a DH. Your post also implies that with Tex “blocking him”, Montero could possibly replace that production. That’s just prospect hugging wrongness there. It’s not true.

                  • MannyGeee says:

                    I didn’t read it that way at all. What i read say was that Montero would be on his way to 1B if Giambi/Swisher/Mincievitczhxz/Tino/Posada was the guy there instead of Tex’s 35 Homers and solid defense…

                    “Blocking” someone is not always a negative.

          • Ted Nelson says:

            Someone = the Kansas City Royals

        • Pat D says:

          I actually feel that this will start picking up steam, but, yea, they’d better not give up anything of significant value if they’re gonna take on the money.

          • Smallz says:

            Honestly the Yankees have made a pretty bad habit of trading prospects before we ever get to see them in pinstripes. I know everyones gunna be hitting the panic button because of this now but I really dont wanna part with those 3 guys in specific. Part of me kinda hopes Martin goes on the 15 day DL so Jesus can come up already.

            • Ted Nelson says:

              How many extremely high upside guys have they traded before they hit MLB? Robinson Cano? Hughes? Joba? Arodys is about the only one, and he was really far away.

              The guys they trade are usually the Jose Tabata’s of the world in the worst case: prospects who are far away and losing their luster… Gary Sanchez is more a candidate for that. Usually they trade guys who have had multiple call-ups and largely failed. As much good depth as they’ve traded away recently, what really quality players have they lost? AJax, IPK and relief pitchers mostly…

              • MannyGeee says:

                although IPK falls into that category too. had plenty of chances to stick with the big club, but never quite got there.

            • Ted Nelson says:

              And it’s not necessarily a “bad habit”… all depends what you’re getting in return.

            • The BIG 3 says:

              but I really dont wanna part with those 3 guys in specific

              Perhaps if they don’t part with “those 3 guys”, they’ll forced to utilize them before they were ready. That didn’t work out too well last time.

              Simply, if depth and availability force them to utilize those kids, might as well trade them for something vital this year.

              • Ted Nelson says:

                “That didn’t work out too well last time.”

                This is proof of nothing… How’s it work out when the three kids were Jeter, Posada, and Pettitte? There’s no all or nothing rule. Take it case by case and trade by trade. If a trade offers good value you make it.

  24. Rick in Boston says:

    Talk about relievers being volatile. The Yankees are now doing to three(?) projected Opening Day relievers from the start of camp. I figure the Yankees will now start auditioning guys and trying to see who clicks to fill the bridge to D-Rob/Mo.

  25. It'sATarp says:

    It’s his mechanics that might be severely flawed. He might need to change it if he want to prevent future injuries

  26. Max says:

    Maybe after Tommy John he’ll have freakish new abilities like Quaid in the Rookie.

    No seriously, hit the reset button and re-stretch him into an actual starter? Yankees front office would never do it, but is such a thing possible from a training/medical perspective?

  27. JohnnyC says:

    So…KRod and Beltran for…?

  28. Kevin G. says:

    I’m just gonna leave this here again:

    http://riveraveblues.com/2011/.....uez-49541/

  29. YanksFan in MA says:

    Can’t look away….

  30. Foghorn Leghorn says:

    fug me in the butt!

  31. Drew says:

    A famous person once said “Wow Fucka Me Luigi”

  32. Foghorn Leghorn says:

    maybe the yanks should just buy the mets…keep the good parts, beltran, krod and reyes..and just sell of the rest like scrap metal.

  33. Ray the Anti-Handle says:

    Someone get Robertson some bubble wrap…

  34. Dave says:

    So much for those “Joba Rules”. Can we get back to pitching pitchers now?

    • JobaWockeeZ says:

      Yeah instead of Joba dying in 2007 we prolonged it until 2011. What a horrible rule.

    • The Big City of Dreams says:

      I’m in favor of pitch counts and everything else and I understand pitchers get hurt but boy the Yankees can’t catch a break when it comes to pitching. Two prized prospects both injury prone and on the DL

  35. Foghorn Leghorn says:

    I pulled an oblique when i read this headline. I’m on the DL for at least 18 days…it will be very hard to comment at a high level.

  36. YanksFanInBeantown says:

    FRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRICK

  37. nsalem says:

    one door closes one door opens

  38. Howard Cosell says:

    TIM NORTON is injured again……not good folks :-(

  39. William Wallace says:

    Not looking like our year. So many injuries. Hopefully Joba gets back to 100%. Feel bad for the guy after the way the front office jerked him around.

  40. Ghost of Joe Torre says:

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

  41. Chris says:

    Never thought I’d say this but I hope Soriano comes back healthy and does not opt out.

    • nsalem says:

      There is absolutely no chance that Soriano will opt out of his contract. There is something seriously wrong with anyone who tthinks such a possibility exists.

  42. Mike Axisa says:

    So based on Aceves, they’ll non-tender him because they don’t want to guarantee him anything due to the injury. Right?

  43. teddy says:

    krod can go to hell, turned brackman into a reliever, there has to be another starter not top guys who can get people out in short stins. not manny and delances

  44. A-Rod's Wingman says:

    Well, it was fun. Time to pack it in?

  45. Cuso says:

    The London “Bridge to Mariano” is falling down, falling down, falling down.

    the Lon-Mo Bridge is falling down, my fair Logan

    plpppblp!

  46. Chip says:

    And here I was just thinking maybe we should bring up Tim Norton………who is now injured.

    I suppose we’ll probably see Whelan and Pope up? Too bad Prior is still hurt or he’d probably be the number 3 man in the pen by now.

  47. Chip says:

    What about bringing Noesi up to start until Hughes gets back and putting Nova in the bullpen?

  48. jsbrendog says:

    meh. we’ll still make the playoffs.

  49. Andrew says:

    Please just don’t turn Hughes into a reliever for the rest of the year. Just trade for someone.

  50. infernoscurse says:

    Mike adams for Brackman, sanit , kontos and a ptbnl with 2 front row tickets to the spiderman show and a free backstage pass to tonights free black eyed peas concert

  51. We’re gonna laugh when Colon and Garcia last all year long healthily and pitching effectively, while Joba and Hughes have the bodies of 50 year old men.

    I hope we’re gonna laugh, I mean.

  52. Monteroisdinero says:

    Get back here Noesi. Warren has been pitching well and so has DJ Mitchell.

    /optimism

  53. dennis says:

    come back throwing 100 joba.

  54. Hall and Nokes says:

    Looking at the bright side, he’ll be ready to kick ass in 2013 and he can pitch whatever innings he wants, right?

  55. Stevis says:

    theres always 2012!

  56. Craig says:

    Kerry Wood reunion?

  57. Kiersten says:

    Maybe he can come back as a starter in a year and a half.

    (Forgive me if someone has already said this, don’t have time to read all the comments)

    • The Big City of Dreams says:

      That’s what a number of fans on various boards are saying

    • This injury is in all likelihood the final nail in the coffin. The team was already dead set against Joba starting again, presumably because they didn’t think his body could handle it. This injury cements that (even though it came while he was relieving).

      It doesn’t make a ton of sense, but it’s what’s going to happen. When Joba comes back, it’s as a reliever. He would need like 2+ years of healthy dominance in the bullpen AND a gigantic hole in the rotation AND no other alternatives available on the market for the team to even consider it, and by that point he’ll have been a non-starter for like 4-5 years.

      Not happening anymore. This is the end.

  58. Stevis says:

    getting back to reality…The Yankees have to MANUP and kick some Red Sux ass tonite……and stop being pussies

    • JobaWockeeZ says:

      To be fair it was only Gardner that really has no damn aggressiveness. The pitching simply sucked.

      • Stevis says:

        i don’t think he has baseball instincts..speed is one thing , but if you dont know how to use it….

        • CP says:

          I think he hesitated when Jeter held up his hand to tell Gardner to stay, and once he saw the ball was away it was too late.

  59. Rob says:

    Remember when we were all trying to come up with clever names for the bullpen? Josomo, I miss those days

  60. KyleLitke says:

    K-Rod has a WHIP over 1.500 in the NL. I’d take him for a nothing prospect and we’ll pay his salary, otherwise, big pass.

  61. Foghorn Leghorn says:

    guys and gals…this is all my fault. I’ve only met one majore league player and it was joba…I was so excited that i shook his hand so hard that I tore a ligament.

    i’m so very sorry.

  62. Cuso says:

    Joba saw that his ERA was finally below 3.00 and figured now would be the time to let people know that he was hurt.

    This way, when Nebraskans call him overhyped again, he can show them the back of his Topps baseball card.

    “Look, Throws: Right, Hits; Right, 6’3, 324 lbs 2011 stats: 2-0 2.83 ERA!”

    I still blame Rafael Soriano.

  63. Justin says:

    I’d move Nova to pen, Hughes to rotation. Nova is good in short spurts…innings 1-4 or so. So in short relief he can just go all out and not have to see a batter 2-3 times, where he normally gets in trouble.

    But yea…looks like this is injury Karma for laughing at all the hurt Red Sox last year…

  64. The Big City of Dreams says:

    PeterBotte
    Joba is sending MRI results to Andrews but not visiting him yet. Said he “shed a few tears” when told diagnosis, “but I’m not giving up.”
    2 minutes ago

  65. Macho Man says:

    I need a drink. Something strong.

  66. Yank The Frank says:

    Well it is only early June the season is not lost. Better knowing now than the stretch run in September.
    Hopefully, we can put the pieces in place for a stretch run in September.

  67. Rainbow Connection says:

    Jesus fuck.

  68. mbonzo says:

    Heres a crazy one. What if the Yanks called up Brackman and put him in the pen? Complete wildcard, but he’s been terrible starting.

  69. wow says:

    That’s a darn shame. Hopefully Soriano and Feliciano come back strong along with Hughes.

    What is the timetable again for these three?

  70. mbonzo says:

    Bring up Venditte!

  71. Ivan says:

    Well its certainly not the greatest news in the yankee land. I trust Cashman to make the best move possible. However I think the yankees should keep Hughes as a starting pitcher because I just see him making more impact there.

  72. Hester Prynne says:

    And the season just keeps slipping away. We were high after that west coast trip, 2 losses to Boston, down goes Joba and now we’re unlikely to make the playoffs with 2 effective relievers and 2 effective starters. Cashman needs to raid the farm system and get some veteran pieces in here while our core is still intact to win the WS.

    • King George says:

      Dude, the core is as follows:

      Tex is 30
      Cano is 28
      Granderson is 30.
      Gardner is 29.
      Sabathia is 31.

      We have a core to compete the next 4-5 years when you include A-Rod, etc.

      Sky ain’t falling.

  73. Frank says:

    Now it’s time for Cashman to earn his keep- hopefully, fat Levine and the Steinbrenners stay out of his way.

  74. Will (the other one) says:

    Brad Halsey. BOOM.

    • I’m gonna laugh when Randy Flores, Kanekoa Texeira, and Jeff Marquez all become lights-out relievers for the rest of the year and Joba/Soriano/Feliciano aren’t missed at all.

      I’ve been told that you can’t predict baseball.

      • Will (the other one) says:

        It’s true, though I can’t see it happening with marquez. My working theory is still that Ozzie Guillen engineered the whole situation with Marquez, secretly drugging him and planting some sort of Bond-type covert explosive somewhere deep in his body before sewing him up and sending him on his way.

        Well, either that, or he’s programmed to kill the queen.

  75. bonestock94 says:

    Oh man, bad bad news. I feel bad for the guy more than I’m worried about the pen.

    • mbonzo says:

      Robertson has been better than Soriano and Joba anyway. There bullpen has gone from disgustingly good to above average. I feel bad for Joba too, it was inevitable that he would feel something from the organization’s mismanagement of him.

  76. “While the Yankees’ starting rotation is skating on thin ice these days…”

    Because of 2 bad starts in a row by Garcia and AJ?

    Overall they’be been pretty good, and while I don’t think Garcia will necessarily finish the year, I do believe AJ will bounce back.

    • JobaWockeeZ says:

      I would like to believe that but the peripherals don’t suggest a strong comeback. And Nova sucks. Garcia is a decent starter but as we see can’t do anything at all if he loses his control.

      So yeah thin ice is a perfect metaphor. And if they make it to the playoffs CC and Colon isn’t enough.

  77. special kid says:

    told you this season is doomed

  78. UncleArgyle says:

    Unless ManBan is traded for some stopgap starter, he will be in the Yankees Bullpen by August.

    /Crystal Balled

  79. Kevin G. says:

    Call up Jesus!1!1!1!!1!!1

  80. Oh boy says:

    JOBA RULES!!!!

  81. Gonzo says:

    Ok, I know people are going to sly me for writing this. Yes, I know pitchers get injured all the time, etc…

    However, is it time we start discussing Nardi’s role with the Yankees? I don’t what exactly his role is except for a few decisions, but the Yankees certainly do.

    I am sure more information will be had in the next few years. Like, did Joba have a partially torn ulnar? Did the Yankees know? Did they not want to know? So many questions regarding their handling of pitchers.

    “Truth is the daughter of time, not of authority.”

    • The first step in building the case you’re building is to study all 30 teams to see if Yankee pitchers are getting injured at a rate higher than non-Yankee pitchers.

      My eyeball/gut reaction is “no”. We’ve had a ton of unfortunate injuries to our pitchers, but other teams do as well, we just don’t notice it as much because we don’t follow those teams.

      I could be wrong, but I guess we’re close to the league average.

      • Gonzo says:

        Well, I would like to look at the decisions made for certain pitchers, then find out who made them. Then compare those pitchers to the regular public.

        For example, D-Rob wasn’t handled differently than “normal.”

        • Gonzo says:

          That is, pitchers who were “handled differently” could be your experiment group, and those “handled normally/traditionally” would be your control group.

          • Ted Nelson says:

            A. What the hell is different and normal? Lincecum was handled very similarly through the minors to Joba; Felix, to Hughes. Those guys just didn’t hit bumps in the road.

            B. You need a sample size of some substance… Joba and Hughes is not a sample size you can work with to prove anything.

            • Gonzo says:

              A. I didn’t bring up Lincecum. You did. However, since drafted by SF, Timmy has entered a game only one time in relief. That’s seems different to me than how Joba was handled. And yes, now I realize you are going to look at every freaking picther that’s ever relieved ans started,

              B. I understand the limitations of SSS, which is why this is somethine the Yankees should do internally. However, it’s a simple exercise that holds some water. If we know of a few times that decisions were different, and each time they didn’t work out, how eager would you be willing to do it again? Especially if it’s out of the norm.

              • Ted Nelson says:

                A. Yeah, I was re-bringing them up as examples of guys who got similar treatment in the minors. I quote Dick Tidrow below, and he said after drafting him that Lincecum could be a starter or a reliever, but he’d move fast. The Giants didn’t use Lincecum in relief because he didn’t struggle in the rotation. He pitched above average in MLB his 2nd year in pro-ball and then dominated his 3rd. My point is that the Giants might have done the same with Joba as the Yankees, and vice versa. There are so many factors that it’s hard to boil it down to bouncing a guy between the pen and rotation. So many guys have TJS… not that many of them bounce back and forth.

                B. Again… what is “different” and how many pitchers do they handle that way? Are we talking prospects, MLBers, both? You are basically talking about 2 guys… there’s no getting around the tiny sample size. I really don’t see how it’s a simple exercise.

                “If we know of a few times that decisions were different, and each time they didn’t work out, how eager would you be willing to do it again?”

                You are referring to two guys, right? Could be pure bad luck that two pitchers got injured as easily as anything.

                • Gonzo says:

                  A. Joba didn’t struggle as a starter until he was a reliever for a year already. It wasn’t odd that they tried to have him as a reliver pitching 1-2 innings then tried to stretch him out in the majors mid-season?

                  I’ll take a page from your book. I could open a can if I just suppose a can-opener. Let’s just go with what actually happened why don’t we?

                  B. I am not privy to what other pitchers received different path. I just know of the two high profile ones that are in discussion.

                  They were handled a little different. That’s that. If I were the Yankees, I would decide to to do things a little more traditionally, rightly or wrongly. If you are saying pllow ahead with trying unconventional things, by all means express that opinion. Don’t just say we can’t know.

                  • Ted Nelson says:

                    “It wasn’t odd that they tried to have him as a reliver pitching 1-2 innings then tried to stretch him out in the majors mid-season?”

                    I really don’t think this is that odd. You’re going to find a lot of examples of young guys who haven’t established themselves swinging between the pen and rotation mid-season.

                    “Let’s just go with what actually happened why don’t we?”

                    What actually happened is 2 guys getting injured… It’s too small a sample to start going off on.

                    “I just know of the two high profile ones that are in discussion.”

                    Again… it’s a tiny sample.

                    “If I were the Yankees, I would decide to to do things a little more traditionally, rightly or wrongly.”

                    A. What is traditionally?
                    B. At what point do you move a starter to the pen? What’s the tradition on that? With someone like Tyler Clippard, you trade him before moving him to the pen?

                    “If you are saying pllow ahead with trying unconventional things, by all means express that opinion.”

                    Again… you are making up this “tradition.” There is a long tradition of using young starters out of the pen.

                    “Don’t just say we can’t know.”

                    I’m asking what you want to know and how you intend to find out. You are not answering. I am saying that there are so many confounding factors and you are talking about such a tiny, tiny sample that I doubt we can know. Joba and Hughes haven’t even been handled in the exact same way themselves.

                    • Ted Nelson says:

                      It’s totally possible that the Yankees screwed up their arms. It’s totally possible every single org made a decision that screwed up a pitchers’ arm. I’m just asking how you intend to isolate what you’re looking for? And why are you only looking at moving between the pen and rotation instead of all the other possible explanations? Conducting an unscientific study and then relying on the results can be worse than conducting no study.

                      You have repeatedly suggested the Yankees look at the pitchers they treated “differently.” Then you’ve said there are only two such pitchers, and you know of no other pitchers treated that way… so your study involves looking at whether or not Joba and Hughes got hurt… what do you think the results will be? Yes. They got hurt.

                    • Gonzo says:

                      Again, time and time again, these are questions you or I can’t answer. I would love to ask these questions of the Yankees. If you would rather not, fine.

                      Did I give a definitive answer in all of this? I never said, this is defiitley what hurt Joba or Phil. Never, even though you would love for me to have said it. You are trying to paint me into a corner.

                      I am saying when we have two instances of players being treated differently, and both of them get injured it warrants a discussion and questioning of those decisions and decision makers.

                      You are trying to make me say something I am not saying.

                      I have no idea why you are saying I am making a definitive statement.

                      Again, my OP said we should start the discussion, and ask questions.

                    • Gonzo says:

                      I have never said this is how we know either.

                      Also, I don’t know how I would intend to find out. Again, this is why I ended my OP with that Bacon quote. That is, I won’t be able to find out. I’ll just have to wait until the news trickles down years from now.

                    • Ted Nelson says:

                      You aren’t reading my comments…

                      I would be interested to hear, sure. Hear their thinking.

                      My main question to you is what are you going to do with that information? How are you going to find anything meaningful from it?

                      I’m still not 100% what you want to know, though. If the way Joba and Hughes were handled led to poorer results and more injuries than other handling? Right? think that’s impossible to know.

                    • Gonzo says:

                      My main question to you is what are you going to do with that information? How are you going to find anything meaningful from it?

                      I really don’t know. And, I don’t know.

                      That doesn’t mean the questions shouldn’t be asked.

                    • Ted Nelson says:

                      I didn’t say the questions should be asked.

                      I said once you have the info, how do you get anything out of it? I don’t think that was a bad question to ask anymore than you think your question to the Yankee brass was.

                    • Ted Nelson says:

                      *shouldn’t be asked

                    • Gonzo says:

                      Are we done? I answered the question you were dying to know.

            • The Big City of Dreams says:

              Again with the sample size as if it’s a 1 or 2 yr thing

        • CP says:

          He also didn’t fall in the draft because of injury concerns like Joba did.

        • Ted Nelson says:

          The Yankees should be evaluating Nardi’s role constantly…

          I don’t think it would be a fruitful exercise on your part just looking at the results… every pitcher is different and there is a tremendous amount of luck involved. Tim Lincecum and Felix Hernandez were handled very similarly early on to Joba and Hughes, respectively, for example. Those two went on to Cy Youngs… the other two have had ups and downs. The Giants drafted Lincecum saying he “had a chance to start” but half expecting him to relieve down the road. It worked out. Hasn’t worked out brilliantly with Joba, though it has worked out.

          Every team has guys who have TJS… Did the Marlins “mishandle” Josh Johnson, then “handle” him after TJS?

          You’re taking a tiny sample size of guys Nardi worked with and blowing it out of proportion. Why would it be his fault, anyway, and not Rothschild or Eiland’s?

          • Gonzo says:

            I don’t disagree with you, but I think we should be looking at the decisions not just the results. Unfortunately, we won’t know all of the decisions made for years, and even then, we may not know all of them.

            That’s why I ended my OP with that Bacon quote.

            • Ted Nelson says:

              There are only so many decisions you can actually look at, though… and a lot of those decisions are contingent on the results of other decisions as well as inputs.

              What work-out program were they on? What pitches were they working on to what extent? What was their raw natural ability? How strong is their connective tissue? What’s their work ethic like? What’s their pitching IQ like? Hard to know any of that as fans, and pretty impossible to quantify any of it.

              If you look at IP, levels, stats, BP/rotation use… all that is contingent upon success and development. Some of which is subjective… “his curve looks sharper than a month ago” is tough to quantify for an A-ball pitcher if you’ve got no pitchFX data.

              Had Lincecum and Hernandez struggled upon being called up… they might have been used in the pen. Here’s what Dick Tidrow said after drafting Lincecum: “Long range he has a chance to start … he’s a fast mover who can pitch in either a starting or relief role.” If they’d have drafted Joba (a 2006 pick like Lincecum) with the same mentality… Joba might have ended up as a reliever for the Giants too upon struggling a bit in the rotation, and if Lincecum had fallen to the Yankees he might be in their rotation… even though both got similar treatment in terms of rushing through the minors. Historically, you’ll find a lot of stud pitchers who were “rushed” through the minors… some worked out and some didn’t.

              • Gonzo says:

                Let’s go back to Timmy again. He didn’t struggle as a starter in the minors, so they didn’t see a need to move him. Joba didn’t struggle as a starter in the minors, but the decided to move him to the pen anyway.

                Not the same decision making process. The Yanks had their priorities in the big league club, and right or wrong, they went with the now need.

                • Gonzo says:

                  Can we kill this. I really don’t want to see you write 500 words and go back and forth with you.

                  It’s my belief that there were some “untraditional” decisions made. Not unique, and experimental/groundbreaking, just different.

                  Let’s leave it at that.

                  • Ted Nelson says:

                    A. Is that on Nardi?

                    B. I have asked a ton of questions about what you’re looking for outside of a two man sample of mediocre results that you’re not happy with… and you haven’t really answered. Just decided that my examples are wrong. I was just using Lincecum and Felix as extreme examples of how the Yankees might have brought two different pitchers up through the minors in almost the exact same way and gotten very different results.

                    • Gonzo says:

                      A. I don’t know. Like I said, I just know about a couple examples of Nardi. I have no idea about what other input he has, but players have stated he has a lot of input. I think someone, a journalist, should start asking the questions though. I started the OP with saying we should discuss it. I hope that the discussion will lead to answers. My OP said nothing to thae fact that this is Nardi’s fault. Don’t try and paint me into a corner.

                      B. Like I said in my first post, I want answers, I don’t have them. I would like to know about what the Yankees though about Joba’s disappearing velo. What they thought about his injury in 2008. Who and why they decided Hughes could up his ML IP 71 IP from one year to the next ( I don’t think that includes playoffs). What was their basis for this decision. Why does Nardi take away sliders from pitchers. What data does he have to back that up.

                      I never professed to have the answers. I want to ask the questions. If you don’t want the answers or want the questions asked, fine. Let me be and let me ask them.

                    • Ted Nelson says:

                      A. Not trying to paint you into a corner… Nardi is the minor league pitching coordinator, though, so I’m not sure how much of a say he has in MLB use of pitchers. He’d probably be all for longer development time under him, you’d assume. He’d be all for turning out starters and not relievers, you’d assume. He implemented the Joba Rules… so he may be for slow development.

                      I’m still not sure how we’re going to see if their injuries were or were not a result of their usage… but I’m just questioning if Nardi is even the guy to look at. Your start was pretty strong against the man. You’re talking about two MLB pitchers since like 2007 getting hurt in 2011… I’m just not sure if that’s on the MiLB pitching guy. I have no idea. I just don’t know if that’s where to point our fingers… especially since multiple people play into this. Nardi may have said “use Joba like this…” only to have the MLB pitching coach and Girardi disagree and say “screw Nardi.”

                      B. I would love to know the answers… but the Yankees surely know the answers to all of those questions, as they made them. And how are you going to know if they were the right decisions even if you know the answer? Would Joba’s shoulder be the same or better or worse with rest/surgery? Would it be the same or better or worse in the rotation? Would he need TJS? There are no answers to these questions. My point is that each pitcher is unique and each injury is unique. Same with how a pitcher would be doing right now with a different arsenal. I don’t think there are any answers to your ultimate questions. To why they did these things? Yes. To whether they’ve been more or less effective than the alternatives? No.

                    • Gonzo says:

                      A.
                      However, is it time we start discussing Nardi’s role with the Yankees? I don’t what exactly his role is except for a few decisions, but the Yankees certainly do.

                      I really don’t think this was a strong start against the man. I honestly don’t. Maybe something is lost on the internet.

                      You are absolutely right, the Yankees may have said screw Nardi, which is why I never said, “Screw Nardi, he screwed over so many picthers like Phil and Joba.” I am honestly curious about what decisions he gets to make and who has the most say. I know of two. I would like to know more.

                      B.
                      If it’s your position that you would not like to know this information, fine. I would like to know this information. Period. Call me what you want, but I am curious, and I want to know. I also never said, “With all this information, we can have an exact picture what exactly happened so it will never happen again.” I never said that either.

                      I’m of the camp that more information is a good thing. Take the other camp if you like.

                    • Ted Nelson says:

                      “I know of two. I would like to know more.”

                      Which two?

                      “If it’s your position that you would not like to know this information, fine. I would like to know this information.”

                      I don’t think you understand my point. There are two things to know: 1. what decisions were made why and by whom, and 2. were they the right decisions.

                      The Yankees, I imagine, could answer the first easily. The second, though… I doubt it. I don’t think you can find a one-size-fits-all “traditional” way of developing pitchers. Historically different pitchers have been developed in such different ways. Most have had little success. Only a few really have much success and longevity. Based on the many different paths I know these guys to have taken… I doubt you’ll find a X IP in RK, X IP in A, X IP in AAA… etc. roadmap. I doubt you’ll find a this is the right time to move a pitcher in and out of the pen roadmap. The individual circumstances matter so much.

                      “I’m of the camp that more information is a good thing. Take the other camp if you like.”

                      I never said that… I said, what are you going to do with that information? And I’m also wondering if you think there’s a non-zero chance of fining out most all of that info. Based on the evidence we as fans have, I think you might find some loose trends in IP and not more. That’s of questionable value (maybe it’s very valuable, maybe not). With all the insider info in the world, I’m not convinced your results would be any more scientific.

                    • Gonzo says:

                      I really have to stop responding to you.

                      Two decisions, I know Nardi made concerning Phil and Joba. He came up with the Joba Rules and took away Hughes’ slider. I think Cash implied that Hughes could go off his career IP high instead of year before based on Nardi’s recomendation, but I cannot confirm this, so I left that out.

                      I don’t think you understand my point. There are two things to know: 1. what decisions were made why and by whom, and 2. were they the right decisions.

                      Yes, I am dying to know #1. That was basically my whole point of this thread for me. That’s it. I want to have that discussion and hear what people think. You and the other people on this blog can argue #2 all you want on this blog. I will not comment on #2 until we have the information on #1. What’s the point of arguing #2 when it’s based on #1, which we don’t know yet. What if we find out that Nardi like his pitchers to throw bowling balls. What if he was totally “normal.”

                      Again, I ended my OP with the Bacon quote because I think the information will be diseminated sooner or later. I never said, “then we’ll know for sure what right or wrong decisions thh Yankees made.” I am sure you would love that if I did.

                    • Ted Nelson says:

                      I’m asking you how you plan to get from #1 to #2… and you have yet to answer. I am on the same page as far as getting the answer to #1. Would be great to know everything that goes on within the org. I think it’s crazy to even think you will… but it would be great. Now, you have that info. How do you use that to determine whether Joba and Hughes and every other Yankees pitching prospect were handled well or poorly? I have been trying to get at that the whole time… and you’re still stuck on #1.

                    • Gonzo says:

                      I’m asking you how you plan to get from #1 to #2… and you have yet to answer.

                      I’ve answered you somewhere else. Here is the answer. I don’t know, and I don’t know if it’s possible.

                      Would be great to know everything that goes on within the org. I think it’s crazy to even think you will… but it would be great.

                      Again, and again again, this is why I ended my OP with that Bacon quote.

                    • Ted Nelson says:

                      Saw that afterwards.

                      Fair enough.

                    • Gonzo says:

                      And you always chastise me about not reading your comments. Tsk, tsk Mr. Nelson.

                • Ted Nelson says:

                  The Giants also had their priorities in the big league club… they just brought him up as a starter. Lincecum pitched 62.2 MiLB innings, Joba 88.1. I believe, Lincecum was coming off a huge workload in college in 2006… SF might easily have used him in relief late in 2006 if he hadn’t already pitched so many innings. He only pitched 30 MiLB innings that season, Joba 88.1.

                  Lincecum is one example of a fast mover. We could go with Chris Sale, who was moved to the pen. We could go with Strasburg, who stayed in the rotation and got hurt. We could go with Wood and Prior and Mulder who all got hurt in the rotation. My point is that there’s really no “normal” and that all sorts of pitchers get hurt.

                  I see what you’re getting at that moving guys between the rotation and pen may be unwise. I just don’t see how you propose to set up your experiment. I don’t see what you’re getting at outside of a 2 man sample.

                  • Gonzo says:

                    No experiment needed. Why not just stick with the traditional? This is not just about Joba needing TJS either BTW. His stuff suffered well before the impending TJS.

                    Chris Sale? Some scouts saw him as a RP all the way with that delivery. Not the same.

                    Strasburg, sure he needs TJS, but it’s not just about TJS.

                    • Ted Nelson says:

                      “Chris Sale? Some scouts saw him as a RP all the way with that delivery.”

                      This is the exact same thing with Tim Lincecum my friend… that’s why I’m giving that example and wondering why you’re not listening. A lot of scouts thought he was a reliever, and after drafting him SF specifically said he might be a reliever.

                      “Why not just stick with the traditional? ”

                      I’ve asked like 10 times now… what is the traditional? Are Nolan Ryan, Curt Schilling, Pedro, Wells, Rogers, on and on and on not traditional?

                    • Gonzo says:

                      Ok, now you’re throwing out a red herring. Chris Sale is a reliever right? Is he going to be turned into a starter? Is he injured right now? I am not sure how he relates to a discussion on how pitchers are handled differently if he has not been handled differently (switching roles multiple times or work load) and is not injured.

                      I think that’s an excellent question and one worth asking. However, that would definitely a question I would love someone to ask the Yankees. I would think that Joba’s treatment in 07/08/09 would be classified as untraditional by most measures. Do you disagree?

                    • Ted Nelson says:

                      I’m trying to discuss somewhat comparable examples… You specifically said you’d prefer I not go into the long history of guys who moved between the rotation and pen.

                      My point is Sale is to contrast him with Lincecum and Joba. A whole lot of people think the Sox should be patient and develop him as a starter. They rushed him into their bullpen instead. How would he do in the rotation? We don’t really know. How would his shoulder/elbow withstand a varying role?

                      Basically all you care about is the moving between the rotation and pen? You were never too clear on that.

                      “I would think that Joba’s treatment in 07/08/09 would be classified as untraditional by most measures. Do you disagree?”

                      I don’t know exactly.

                      A. I would guess untraditional… but not totally unprecedented.
                      B. It’s hard to just isolate the treatment from the circumstances. If he performs differently, never dives Pudge’s throw… etc. what changes? The Yankees are probably making most of their decisions in responses to changing circumstances. I doubt they planned to move Joba back to the pen once in the rotation. *This is my main point with Felix and Timmy.* That the Yankees planned, ideally, for Joba to win a Cy Young his first season as a fulltime starter in 2009. They planned for IPK and Hughes to be big parts of that rotation in, what?, 2008. Things changed and they adapted. Things haven’t gone as planned. Would they have gone any differently with a different plan? Impossible to say.

                      There are lots of other examples of guys shuffling between rotation and pen season to season or in-season. It’s definitely not unprecedented. It just received so much hooplah because those guys were so hyped. Noesi is essentially doing it right now, but you don’t hear too much about it like with those two. I have no idea what the injury/success rate is for these guys… I know of lots who had long, prosperous careers, though. I know of lots of strict starters/relievers who got hurt. So, without quantifying it–which I agree would be great–I question it.

                    • Gonzo says:

                      <Things changed and they adapted.
                      Again, other great questions I would love to know. How did you guys weigh the ’07 vs. Joba’s development. What were their honest view of Joba in ’06 and ’07? I would love to know.

                      Again, I actually said:
                      It’s my belief that there were some “untraditional” decisions made. Not unique, and experimental/groundbreaking, just different.

                      I never said unprecedented decisions were made.

                      And again, I never said we would have an open and shut case. I am sure you would love for me to say that.

                      So, without quantifying it–which I agree would be great–I question it.

                      Again, I never said I would, or if we should, come to conclusions. You are trying to paint of a picture of me that is incorrect.

                    • Ted Nelson says:

                      I’m wondering why you want the information if there are no conclusions to be drawn. By saying you wanted the information, I don’t think it was that unfair to assume you wanted conclusions… and at times I think you implied or directly said you did. Should I have assumed that by saying “I want x information” you also meant “I don’t want to draw any conclusions based on it?” I think that’s unreasonable on your part.

                      I think every situation is pretty unique… and your pointing out all the differences between the most similar examples I came up with off the top of my head only serves to reinforce that. Your original point seemed to be to compare Joba and Hughes to a larger sample and see what the results said. Yet every time I ask how you want to do that or what you want to find out… you flip out on me and tell me I’m putting words into your mouth… that you just want some random decision making info and to do nothing with that info.

                    • Gonzo says:

                      I’m wondering why you want the information if there are no conclusions to be drawn.

                      Again, without the information it’s impossible for me to say conclusively that any, or no, conclusions should/could be made. I don’t know what you want me to say about information that is not available.

                      Does that mean, that you aren’t interested in the answers?

                      I implied. Maybe you inferred. You’ve been trying to get me to say something this whole time.

                      So we can end this, just tell me what you want me to say, so I can walk my dogs.

                    • Ted Nelson says:

                      Yeah, I did pretty much infer that your implication was that something was wrong. Not unreasonable… but by bringing it up I think that’s a bit implied. I mean we should also evaluate Oppenheimer, and Cash, and Long, and Tim Naehering, and Rothschild, and Pena, etc. I now understand that you didn’t mean the conclusion would be this or that, but I don’t think I am crazy for inferring there was a negative implication about Nardi’s job performance based on two pitchers.

                      I don’t think anyone can ever know for sure what they would have done under different circumstances, basically. Guys who are always starters/relievers get hurt and fail to live up to their ceilings too. Christian Garcia seemed to get hurt going to the bathroom. Hard to link an injury to something, though maybe we could find an elevated risk based on long-toss/training habits, IP, his body, etc. How do you decide which had more impact… I think it’s pretty impossible. I’m not saying this to defend the Yankees or anything. Just don’t think we can know.

                    • Gonzo says:

                      Yeah, I did pretty much infer that your implication was that something was wrong. Not unreasonable… but by bringing it up I think that’s a bit implied.

                      Can we can to a conclusion in under 2 1/2 hours next time?

  82. mbonzo says:

    $$$$, Nova, Nunez to the Mets for Krod and Beltran.

  83. Foghorn Leghorn says:

    does Tommy John get a royalty everytime Dr. Andrews performs this surgery? Lucky bastard..that’s one hell of annuity.

  84. Tim says:

    Wait a minute. Am I seriously reading people posting on this message board that the season is over due to the loss of a short reliever? A set-up guy? Really??

    I hope some of you people aren’t really serious. Because if you are, you should turn in your fan-badge and gun immediately.

    • Meh, they’ve been declaring the season over on a daily basis all year long. This is just the latest “reason”.

    • Greg says:

      That combined with the fact that they cant beat the Red Sox and the 09 Red Sox were worse than this version so 2009 cant be brought up.

      • CP says:

        Compare the 2009 and 2011 Red Sox and Yankees:

        2009 Red Sox Runs Scored: 872
        2011 Red Sox Pace for RS: 815
        2009 Yankees Runs Scored: 915
        2011 Yankees Pace for RS: 832

        2009 Red Sox Runs Allowed: 736
        2011 Red Sox Pace for RA: 722
        2009 Yankees Runs Allowed: 753
        2011 Yankees Pace for RA: 656

        2009 Red Sox Run Differential: +136
        2011 Red Sox Run Diff. Pace: +93
        2009 Yankees Run Differential: +163
        2011 Red Sox Run Diff. Pace: +176

        So, the 2011 Red Sox are worse than the 2009 Red Sox and the 2011 Yankees are better than the 2009 Yankees.

          • Greg says:

            I play the odds and the eye test. The odds say wild card.
            But that’s not the goal of the Yankees. The goal to win the WS. And they dont look like they can do it. This is the goal that mostly every Yankee fan has.

            • Wild Card and World Series are not mutually exclusive. And the best team doesn’t win the postseason tournament, the hottest team does.

            • Mike Axisa says:

              The odds say wild card. But that’s not the goal of the Yankees. The goal to win the WS.

              Are you really going to care if they win the WS without winning the division? Just get in, then luck takes over. The only reason the Giants won last year was because Cody Ross starting taking Roy Halladay deep in the NLCS like it was nobody’s business.

              • Greg says:

                You’re right. The problem we have to live through these doldrum times and might not get the payoff. The thing is that I don’t have faith in this team right now. Will that change? Maybe. But right now, I don’t have faith in this team. I need to see something positive. ANd I have seen spurts of it. If I see a run like the second half of 2009, then I will probably begin to have faith.

            • The Fallen Phoenix says:

              Because Wild Card teams can’t win the World Series. You’re right. That has never happened even once in the history of the Wild Card.

            • CP says:

              The odds say the division, because they’re a better team than the Red Sox so far.

        • JobaWockeeZ says:

          Why are we treating the pace as that’ll actually happen? Then that means the Orioles should definitely be in first since they have a great record since the start of the Showalter era.

  85. Weird Sal Yankotit says:

    I’m looking forward to the yankees calling up a starter, putting him in the bullpen, and then totally messing up his development.

    Maybe we could JB Cox back?

  86. vin says:

    2 real-world solutions…

    Stem Cells, and Chan Ho Park

  87. What’s Matt Capps gonna cost?

  88. Cy Pettitte says:

    Tim Norton noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

  89. Greg says:

    Rebuild and transition.

    Words that the Yankees have to put in play

  90. EndlessMikeJr says:

    All I hear is how successful TJS is yet I haven’t seen a big player come back espcially a reliver the same as before.Dotel of the A’s,BJ Ryan of the Jays ,Liriano, Humerto Sanchez alot of these guys after getting that surgery aren’t the same before the surgery.

    A big reason why Joba shouldn’t be a starter is he was always a injury risk.Some people can’t log that many innings in there arms or shouklders. Look at Mark Prior who in vain kept trying to be a starter even though he hasn’t been healthy a whole year since 2004.

    • Mike Axisa says:

      All I hear is how successful TJS is yet I haven’t seen a big player come back espcially a reliver the same as before.Dotel of the A’s,BJ Ryan of the Jays ,Liriano, Humerto Sanchez alot of these guys after getting that surgery aren’t the same before the surgery.

      Uh, Mariano Rivera had TJ. So did Billy Wagner, Brian Wilson, and Kerry Wood.

    • mbonzo says:

      Axford, Burnett, Carpenter, Choo, Jaime Garcia, Matt Holliday, Tim Hudson, TOMMY JOHN, Josh Johnson, Kuo, Marcum, John Smoltz, Billy Wagner, Brain Wilson.

      • Kostas says:

        Can you and Axisa name some real players please. Clearly Mo, Wagner, Wilson, Johnson, SMoltz, Hudson, Carpenter are not really good baseball players….

  91. Mister Delaware says:

    A haiku for the occasion as a massive thunderstorm hits me …

    The skies have opened.
    Drip, drop, drip … is it just rain.
    Or tears for Joba?

    • Oh boy says:

      Its the money Cashman pissed away on the bullpen

      • Clay Bellinger says:

        Cashman?

        • Oh boy says:

          Is there a new GM in town? Or is this the Randy Lavine reference? Thats right, Cash gets a pass because Levine apparently signed up the bully pieces.

          • Mister Delaware says:

            If you write up a good report, and just as you’re about to hand it to your boss, the owner of the company comes over and takes a shit on it, is that your fault?

            • Oh boy says:

              Did Levine negotiate the money as well here or was it Cash going nuts on Soriano’s deal? And i thought Feleciano was all Cashman…

              • YankeesJunkie says:

                Feliciano was all Cashman I believe but a 2 year 8 million dollar contract represents 2% of payroll which is a drop in the bucket. Randy Levine went over Cashman’s head for Soriano and gave three times as much money with complete leverage over the contract. No set up man should be making 12 million a year period and Cashman understood than while Levine just wanted to make a splash.

                • If you remove the Soriano deal since Cashman was against it, then Theo Epstein actually flushed more money down the toilet on injured relievers than Cashman did this winter.

                  Jenks >>>> Feliciano

                  • YankeesJunkie says:

                    Unless you can get a reliever for cheap, unless it is a closer (but even then!) teams should rely on farm to bring up relievers through the system. Worst thing that happens is that they fail and get released and if they are a failed starter they have a chance in the pen with boosted stuff (a la Nova).

      • S says:

        you mean the brothers Steinbrenner and Randy Levine….Cash’s moves have worked out this year

        • YankeesJunkie says:

          Feliciano has not. Colon and Garcia have both been successful so the good outweighs the bad though.

          • Greg says:

            You have to throw in the ignorance to Alfredo Aceves and the Javier Vasquez trade.

            • YankeesJunkie says:

              Alfredo Aceves did turn into a bad move as at worst Aceves was cheap. I still don’t mind the Vazquez move because it was impossible to predict that he would lose 3 mph on his FB after a decade of consistency along with fact that the Yanks gave up one prospect for him and Mike Dunn.

            • It'sATarp says:

              Aceves is has been down right medicore despite his ERA would suggest. Ayala has provided the same amount of value as Aceves this year.

  92. Cy Pettitte says:

    Also, if you don’t give Kontos, Pope or Whelan a chance now, when do you? Having Pendleton, Sanit and Marquez all in the pen is so ridiculously repetitive, they’re all the same guy.

    • Mister Delaware says:

      I’d hope so. The back-end is in such diarray you probably have to go with the upside guys now rather than try and piece together the 5-6-7 relievers. Maybe all three of the kids will be awesome and Joba will come back late next year as a starter and we’ll all be super happy forever.

      • Mister Delaware says:

        (Attempt to say “disarray”. Although a misspelled “diarraya” would have worked too.)

    • Having Pendleton, Sanit and Marquez all in the pen is so ridiculously repetitive, they’re all the same guy.

      So are Kontos, Pope, and Whelan, more or less. They might be better, but they’re likely going to produce at the same level as the first three.

      • Cy Pettitte says:

        But with no Joba or Soriano gone I’d take the higher upside guys any day. Maybe they’ll be similar to Pendleton, Sant or Marquez but at least the have some chance of being legitimate relievers instead of glorified mop up men. Like Mike said, Pendleton couldn’t even crack the Stros pen.

        • YankeesJunkie says:

          +1

          All three have better stuff and don’t have to rely on location as much as a guy like Pendelton does. Bring them up.

  93. Jorge says:

    Other teams have been successful with less. Get well, Joba. We will be here waiting!

  94. Brian says:

    Colter Bean

  95. IRF says:

    Why didn’t we sign a reliever to a multi-year deal this offseason!?!?

  96. YankeesJunkie says:

    Sad to see Joba go down considering he has been pitching closer to his peripherals this year. Hopefully one of the guys down in AAA like Whelan or Kontos get a shot and see what they can do and hopefully Soriano comes back and tries to earn at least a little of his bloated contract.

  97. Kostas says:

    Randy Levine has just said he favors moving Nova to the pen and trading for Barry Zito.

    Ok not really but it would not be far fetched – sorry Cash, you lost your nuts when Levine et al over ruled you on Jeter’s contract and Soriano.

    • YankeesJunkie says:

      I don’t think it is a matter of Cash losing his nuts more that he got brow beaten into the move. If Levine pulls any more of this shit the Yanks might lose Cash which would be a bad thing. I am not saying Cash is the best GM out there, but however the new GM is most likely will not have as much power as Cashman has garnered over the past decade.

  98. Reggie C. says:

    Time to bring up CMW and Robbie Cano . Uhh wait. I meant Carlos Silva and David Phelps?

  99. John says:

    This certainly sucks, and is very unfortunate, but some of you are incorrectly making this out to be the destruction of the Yankees season.

    Yes Joba was an effective reliever, but a reliever is probably the easiest position to fill, whether it’s internally and via a trade. This injury isn’t going to derail the season. Some of you guys need to step back in from the ledge. Unfortunately, it appears that TJ surgery is becoming more and more common nowadays among young pitchers. Most make a full recovery, lets wish Joba the best, but please, save the doomsday posts.

    And while it’s still too early to make a proper judgement, the fact that Hughes is @ least throwing 92 is a massive plus. Losing Joba hurts, but adding (albeit and effective) Hughes would be tremendous.

  100. Operation Slade says:

    What about Luke Gregerson or Mike Adams from San Diego, they should be willing to sell and those guys are both interesting pieces

  101. Jerome S. says:

    A fairly fitting end to an epic four year saga.

  102. CP says:

    Why is everyone so focused on the bad news and ignoring the excellent news:

    Along with the Joba news, the Yanks announced that Phil Hughes was consistently hitting 92 on the radar gun and will begin his arduous Spring Training-like rehab process.

    I’ll trade a reliever for a starter every day of the week and twice on Sunday in a cocaine heartbeat.

    • Greg says:

      That is true, but will that translate into game action. And as we all know it is not all about velocity it is about location. Will Phil have his location down.

      • CP says:

        We love to talk about location, but the velocity was a huge part of the problem with Hughes. His contact percent on pitches in the zone was up to 93.5% from 87% last season. Some of that is location, but a large part of that is straight velocity.

        And I would assume that his velocity will be the same or higher in a game situation when compared to a bullpen.

    • JobaWockeeZ says:

      Yeah I don’t get why people are concerned with the depth quickly dying out. Actually since everyone is good we won’t need Joba anymore and we can get him for Carpenter.

  103. Monteroisdinero says:

    Sox will have Pedroia news to match our Joba news. Different extremity.

  104. MikeD says:

    Noesi to the rotation; Nova to the pen. He has a power arm. Let’s see how it plays an inning or two at a clip. The Yankees have quite a few arms that can look at internally here.

    • Jorge says:

      I’d give that a shot. I’ve very much like what I’ve seen out of Noesi thus far.

    • CMP says:

      Sounds like a good plan.

      Hopefully Tim Norton will do well in AAA and can be moved up to the big club in 6 weeks or so. I also think Whelan and Kontos are good candidates for the big league pen depending on how soon Soriano can come back though I don’t think Girardi is going to want half the pen to be made of of inexperienced relievers.

  105. Steve says:

    Putting Phil in the pen would be a big mistake – if they do that, they should just admit that they don’t think he’s a potential frontline pitcher anymore (I don’t think they think he is anymore) and just leave him there until he leaves as a FA.

  106. Steve says:

    Lohud just reported that Cash has said Phil will remain as a starter

  107. CMP says:

    The big 3 of Joba, Hughes and IPK are turning out to be the Yankees version of the Mets Generation K.

  108. mustang says:

    On Joba:
    Sep 16, 2008 … “A little tendinitis, it just tells you a lot,” Posada said after the TV

    I remember many people here ripping Posada as a dumb catcher who didn’t know anything when he made this comment. Maybe someone who has caught for as long as he has may know a little something.

    Read below it’s very interesting.

    http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....id=3589306

    • Zack D says:

      Predicting an injury to a pitcher, yeah he really used inside information on that one.

      • Mister Delaware says:

        Last time I saw David Robertson pitch, I was pretty sure he had an arm injury coming before the end of 2013. Lets see if I’m as prescient as Jorgie …

      • mustang says:

        Did you even read the piece?

        Maybe the all knowing blog world should cut the professionals who play, run, and cover the sport a little more slack.

        • Zack D says:

          “I think if you start him and he pitches 200 innings in one year, you’re going to lose him. He’s going to get hurt. I don’t see him as a starter,” Posada said Monday during a session of “CenterStage,” scheduled to air on the team’s YES Network starting Sept. 28.

          “A little tendinitis, it just tells you a lot,” Posada said after the TV interview. “I think his body is made up for a reliever.”

          This is all Posada is quoted for. Joba’s body means he’d a reliever, that he can’t hold up for 200IP and that tendinitis tells you a lot.

          What more did he say? And WTF did he prove?

      • mustang says:

        “Those who think they know it all have no way of finding out they don’t..”
        — Leo Buscaglia

        Thus why try.

        THE END

  109. Kevin G. says:

    Who will hit Youkillis now?

  110. nathan says:

    Remember the days of the Big 3 and how we were counting down till they showed up for the big stage

    One is traded
    One is finding his FB in the minors
    One is having TJS

    – crushed

  111. Tom Merritt says:

    I will run against the tide here and say I’m sorry this happened but I hope he never comes back to the Yankees. He appears to be fat and out of shape and getting larger every year. I just don’t get the impression that he puts the work in to maintain his conditioning. His velocity has been off for several years. It hurts the Yankees this year for sure but I hope they trade him or get rid of him somehow.

    I am a 3rd gen Yankee fan and this current team kills me. A bunch of over paid pretty boys and a puke for a manager. I’ve never seen the manager express any anger or fire.

    This Red Sox series is pissing me off. Think where you would put your money in a street fight between these two teams? I can’t think of anyone on our roster that would be even close to a hard ass.

    I hate losing but I hate getting punked way more. These Red Sox games this year have had the Yankees getting punked over and over and they don’t even fire back. If the old man was still alive and in his right mind he would be going nuts right now!!!! Say what you want about George but he kept that bar extremely high, paid everyone well, and expected appropriate results.

    This team seems to have no heart. I agree with everyone else on Soriano. When I saw his first couple appearances this year I was thinking man this is going to be a fantastic 1-2 punch with Mariano. Basically would have shortened the majority of games to 7 innings.

    We need some reinforcements. I would release A.J. and Posada yesterday. If no one is available bring up the best option from the farm system. This team isn’t going to win anything anyway this year.

    • I am a 3rd gen Yankee fan

      People should stop saying this and things like it. Nobody cares. Your great grandfather was Jacob Ruppert and your dad had his bris at home plate? I don’t give a shit, it doesn’t validate your argument.

      The length of time you’ve rooted for the team is meaningless.

      Meaningless.

      • King George says:

        This is true. Nobody gives a shit. It doesn’t add or detract from your argument, just makes you look stupid for telling people something they don’t care about.

        • Mister Delaware says:

          I’ve been sitting on my couch for atleast 20 minutes now, and this is one of the many posts I’ve agreed with.

    • Monteroisdinero says:

      Agree with alot of this. Meaningless to some but history is a great teacher. A little fire on occasion from Girardi would be fine with me and losing Joba does not mean the end of our season. There are plenty of “finds” out there and it remains to be seen who will step up. Perhaps CC will get a time to retaliate for all of the hbp we have endured from the Sox recently. He did before.

      Dumb/passive/losing to the Sox is hard to take whatever generation fan you are but having seen the Billy Martin/Lou Piniella/Steinbrenner-type reactions in the past-many of us long for a bit of that from this team and its manager.

      • Meaningless to some but history is a great teacher.

        The beauty of history is, you don’t have to live through it to learn from it.

        • Monteroisdinero says:

          But we usually do. Lots more “meaningless” stuff posted here everyday than saying you’re a 3rd generation Yankee fan and have seen managers and players with lots more fire-although perhaps less talented.

          Don’t despair Tom-this is a common response here to saying you have been a Yankee fan for far more years than many here have been alive.

          • Midland TX says:

            True indeed, and I think a lot of the constant bipolar overreaction in these comments to every game, transaction, etc. is another signifier and symptom of a youthful lack of perspective.

            That said, I think Tom is being a bit uncharitable. Few would question Jeter, Posada, or Rivera’s competitiveness, and they’re all playing well beyond the ages where Mantle and Maris retired. And Girardi has just as many rings as a manager as Billy, in a much shorter span of time.

      • Epy0n says:

        I love the optimism but on the real this is a serious blow. We have some serious work to do this summer in terms of trading for some good pitching.

    • Mister Delaware says:

      If I were you, I’d give up on the season and go away.

  112. bpdelia says:

    Im getting sick of people blaming joba’s injuries on being moved around.

    Did Mendoza get hurt? Is Adam Wainrights injury a result of bing moved?

    Why is it that Aceves is “valuable and versatile” for being moved around, but JOba was “ruined”.

    He got hurt. It had ZERO to do with moving around.

    There is ZERO evidence that I’m aware of that starting has a higher injury risk than relieving.

    I’ve also never heard of this “jerking” around crap until this JOba situation.

    It’s annoying, stupid and makes no logical sense. Enough already.

    The Yankees fucked up by making him a reliever in my opinion. When he comes back they should transition him to a starter in my opinion (again no correlation between starter injuries and reliever injuries.)

    It’s possible JOba’s elbow has been bad for years now and he has confused it with normal soreness (I pitched in college. YOur elbow is sore every time you throw after a few games). PErhaps he comes back stronger after the surgery. IT obviously was not an acute tear.

    But mainly. Stop blaming the yankees for injuries please. It’s ignorant.

    • Mister Delaware says:

      I could be wrong, but I’m pretty sure the numbers would show that relievers do get injured at a higher rate than starters.

      • Matt Montero says:

        Amen to bpdelia! But Mister Delaware, you also have to remember what relievers are: essentially flawed pitchers. For one reason or another, they weren’t able to make it as a starter, otherwise 90% of the time, they would be starting. Wasn’t the reason that the Yankees put Joba into the bullpen because they thought his couldn’t hold up as a starter? A large amount of injury-prone starters are transitioned to the bullpen, with the teams hoping it will cause the player to be injured less often. It may be true that relievers get injured more often, I honestly have no clue, but there would be a good reason for that, and not necessarily because relieving simply causes more injuries.

    • bpdelia says:

      AND STOP THE WHINING ABOUT JOB BEING JERKED AROUND. He was improperly used but his lack of velocity, his injuries etc have nothing to do with that.

      For most of history breaking young SPs in in the bullpen was SOP. ANd it’s still an incredibly common procedure.

      Wainright, Feliz,Mejia, Chapman the list goes on and on.

      WE can have legit discussions on whether this is the MOST EFFECTIVE way to utilize these players but enough with the blaming and scapegoating and implying that this is the reason for a players failures.

    • The Big City of Dreams says:

      They don’t take the entire blame but they do take some it. They are the organization that handled him.

      The Yankees were the one that decided to bring him back off the DL in 08 and pitch him in a lost season.

  113. CMP says:

    Unfortunately sometimes shit happens with these young pitchers. Look at the poor Cubs with Wood and Prior, both of whom were MUCH better young prospects than Hughes and Joba. That’s why it’s so important to keep the pipeline of young pitchers primed.

    I’m still far more disappointed over the fact that AJ Burnett is nothing more than a 5th starter after a 1.3 WAR last year and well on his way to another 1.5 WAR season this year.

  114. Tom Merritt says:

    Great, all you morons!! I won’t waste my time posting here again. Just expressing my frustration that the team is screwed up and with no heart. Hope you all enjoy it!!

  115. Dale Mohorcic says:

    He should see Dr. Purita. That guy’s a fucking magician.

  116. Mike says:

    ——————————-
    http://riveraveblues.com/2011/.....nt-1545602

    Mike says:
    January 16, 2011 at 10:45 am

    Sorry Joba, but I’d rather have Bard by a long shot.
    Reply

    first name only male (formerly Mike R. – Retire 21 says:
    January 16, 2011 at 11:04 am

    I think I might bookmark this comment and revisit it in October.
    Reply
    Angelo says:
    January 16, 2011 at 12:33 pm

    You should. Seriously.
    Reply
    Mike says:
    January 16, 2011 at 1:15 pm

    October? He might get traded by then.
    ———————————

    I managed to save this comment.

    Unfortunately, Joba either pitches average/mediocre (last couple of years) or pitches well and gets injured (this year).

    As much as Joba’s past performance dissapointed me. I also thought Joba’s injury/off-field problems were a factor.

    Bard is still going strong. He may completely collapse by years end but somehow I doubt it.

    • V says:

      You really are a total asshat.

      • Mike says:

        U mad?

        I’m sure if Bard was a total wreck the other poster would’ve “saved my post”.

        As it is, Bard is still lights out and Joba’s injury problems persist.

        I was wrong about the trade part though. No one would trade for an injured player.

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