Jun
10

Mailbag: Matsui, Noesi, Montero, Banuelos

By

Just a heads up, we’re getting lots and lots of Joba Chamberlain-related questions into the inbox. So much so that I might do a Joba-specific mailbag on Monday, once the dust settles and we’re all thinking clearly. Plus I just didn’t have enough time to do one for today. So anyway, here is this week’s mailbag. Use the Submit A Tip box in the sidebar to send in your questions, as always.

(Photo Credit: Flickr user rburtzel via Creative Commons license)

Daniel asks: Do you think Matsui has anything left as bench bat and part-time DH? By the trade deadline, the A’s should be even further back and might want to shed the remaining ~ $2M or so on his deal. With his current level of production, can’t imagine it’d take much more than a C level prospect no?

You have to remove the name when talking about guys like this, because Hideki Matsui‘s status as a True Yankee™ will certainly create biases and cloud judgment. Do the Yankees have a need for a left-handed hitting, part-time designated hitter/bench bat? Not, not really. They already have one in Jorge Posada. Here, look…

Posada in 2011: .203/.311/.366, .303 wOBA, 87 wRC+
Nameless Player: .215/.265/.337, .264 wOBA, 65 wRC+

Posada vs. RHP in 2011: .234/.331/.435, .342 wOBA, 114 wRC+
Nameless Player vs. RHP: .210/.267/.297, .249 wOBA, 55 wRC+

Posada with RISP in 2011: .171/.356/.257, .290 wOBA, 78 wRC+
Nameless Player with RISP: .209/.280/.302, .243 wOBA, 51 wRC+

The triple-slash and wOBA numbers are FYI more than anything, wRC+ is the most important number there because it’s park adjusted. There’s an obvious difference between Yankee Stadium and Whatever They’re Calling It These Days Coliseum. I don’t put much stock in performance with runners with scoring position, so that’s there for those that do more than anything.

In addition to just the overall offense, at least Posada is a switch-hitter, and there’s a tiny bit of value in that even though he’s been brutal (-16 wRC+ … -16!) against lefties this year. He can also play catcher in an emergency, which is more defensive value that Nameless Player provides. In reality, neither of these players should be on the Yankees’ roster, but one is and apparently it’s going to take a minor miracle to get him off it. Adding a second player like that doesn’t make sense to me, regardless of how little he makes or how easy it would be to acquire or what he did in the past.

Dan asks: I thought Hector Noesi was supposed to be a fastball-changeup guy? (“He backs [the fastball] up with quality changeup, his second best offering, and he also throws both a slider and a curveball.” From Mike’s prospect profile) So far in the majors he’s throwing a ton of sliders, and a decent amount of curveballs. Only 6 changeups in 71 pitches Tuesday night, and about 7% coming into the night. What’s the dealio?

Hey, I’m not the only one that said that. From Baseball America’s write-up of the Yankees’ top ten prospects before the season (subs. req’d)…

He pounds the zone with an 89-93 mph fastball, reaching as high as 96. His maintains his velocity deep into games, and his fastball has some run and tail. Noesi’s No. 2 pitch is a changeup with similar action, though he doesn’t quite command it like his fastball. His curveball and slider remain below-average offerings, but he flashes the ability to spin the ball.

Remember, we’re talking about a ridiculously small sample size. Noesi’s faced 58 batters and thrown 204 pitches in the big leagues, which is nothing. Here’s the breakdown of those 204 pitches: 107 fastballs, 61 sliders, 14 curves, and 14 changeups. That adds up to 196, and the missing eight pitches were part of intentional walks. He’s faced 29 righties and 29 righties, so it’s not a platoon thing (changeups are used primarily against batters of the opposite hand).

I honestly don’t know what the deal is, but I suspect it’s more of a fluke than anything given the number of batters faced and overall pitches we’re talking about. Pitchers typical go with their two best offerings in relief, maybe he felt the slider was a better swing-and-miss pitch at the time? Maybe Russell Martin (who’s caught all 204 of those pitches) just hasn’t called it enough and Noesi’s too rookie-ish to shake him off?

Ross asks: When will we get to see Montero in the Bronx? This Cervelli experiment has run its course. If we’re going to accept mediocre defense, we can at least have a bat in the lineup for when the bottom half of the order gets on base. Would there be any takers on the trade market for Cervelli?

(Photo Credit: Flickr user Keith Allison via Creative Commons license)

I think we’ve reached the point where Jesus Montero could be called up literally any day now. If it happened today, I would not be surprised. It’s bad enough that Frankie Cervelli can’t throw anyone out (he’s gunned down 11 of the last 84 that have tried to steal off him, 13.1%), but now he’s gotten into the habit of throwing the ball into center field and giving runners an extra base. It’s not just some annoying problem anymore, it’s in the scouting report and teams are exploiting it.

Despite his general awfulness, I’m certain that Cervelli has some value on the trade market. He’s cheap and young, and the position itself is pretty much a wasteland these days. The Giants are looking for catching help following Buster Posey’s injury, the Pirates are as well with Ryan Doumit and Chris Snyder on the shelf. I’m not saying there’s a trade match between the Yankees and either of those clubs, but there are teams out there looking for catching.

J.R. asks: I know that Banuelos has had control problems in the minors, but I’m wondering how he has done against lefties. With both an innings cap coming up (not sure what you would guess it is) and the need for a LOOGY, would it make sense to put him in the pen for August and September (maybe even October)? It wouldn’t really hurt his development and would give him major league experience.

I’m glad someone asked this because Banuelos is not exactly an ideal LOOGY candidate. Here’s the numbers, first…

vs. LHB in 2011: 14.1 IP, 10 H, 2 R, 1 ER, 7 BB, 15 K, 1.22 GB/FB
vs. RHB in 2011: 36.1 IP, 37 H, 17 R, 15 ER, 22 BB, 30 K, 1.27 GB/FB

vs. LHB in 2009-2010: 34.1 IP, 27 H, 12 BB, 30 K, 4.15 FIP, 5.04 xFIP
vs. RHB in 2009-2010: 139.33, 116 H, 40 BB, 151 K, 2.54 FIP, 3.99 xFIP

The 2009-2010 numbers are park adjusted, courtesy of the minor league splits database at Driveline Mechanics. The numbers from this year come right from his milb.com player page. First of all, this does a great job of showing you just how relatively inexperienced Banuelos is. He’s faced a total of 485 batters in the last 32 months. For some perspective, CC Sabathia has faced 424 batters this year alone.

Secondly, Banuelos has a reverse split. Not necessarily this year, but from 2009-2010 and as a whole from 2009 through today. Why? Because he’s a fastball-changeup pitcher (with a great changeup), and changeups (as I said earlier) are used primarily against batters of the opposite hand. Banuelos’ best pitch doesn’t help him at all against lefties; he’s got to use his fastball and curveball (easily his third best pitch) to get those guys out.

Just because a pitcher throws left-handed doesn’t mean he’s a LOOGY candidate. Banuelos projects as a starter long-term because he can neutralize right-handed batters with that changeup, but he’s still got to work on improving the rest of his repertoire and his command, especially this year. The Yankees have other LOOGY options in house, namely Randy Flores, and there are always guys like Jerry Blevins and David Purcey on waivers. Given the complete debacle of Joba Chamberlain’s development, I’d rather not see the team turn another high-end pitching prospect into a reliever for the big league club then try to turn him back into a starter long-term. I honestly have very little faith in it being done in a way that won’t hurt Banuelos’ long-term development/future.

Categories : Mailbag
  • pat

    After all the fanfare about how the Yankees “messed up” Joba’s development, I cannot fathom how many people are calling for Banuelos to become a situational reliever. I just don’t understand Yankees fans.

    • The Big City of Dreams

      “I just don’t understand Yankees fans.”

      It’s the win now F the future mentality

    • Ted Nelson

      If you are not a fan who blames the Yankees for Joba being a premier reliever instead of a starter… there’s no contradiction whatsoever in hoping some of the young guys get a taste of the bigs in relief. Not all fans think the exact same way. Considering that the anti-Yankee pitcher development fans are getting all worked up about Joba’s impending TJS magically having something to do with his use years ago… they aren’t buying themselves much credibility. Pure starters need TJS and pure relievers need TJS. 20 year olds need TJS and 30 year olds need it.

      • Clay Bellinger

        Nicely stated.

    • J.R.

      I’ll be honest and say that I was the one who asked the question. My point was that Banuelos could be coming up against an innings cap and later in the season when he only has 20 IP left, bring him up to the pros and see if he can help the team as a reliever.

      Afterall, wouldnt 20IP in the pros out of the bullpen be worth more than 3-4 starts in Trenton or Scranton? A month in the pen isnt going to wreck his development if he hits his innings cap regardless. What screwed up Joba’s development was that he never had enough time in the minors to build up his innings count.

      Mike makes a great point and shows that he performs worse against lefties.

      All of that said, it doesn’t appear a call up is in the cards any time soon.

  • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

    The caption for that above photo:

    Cervelli: No, no, no, Bartolo, with all due respect, you’re wrong. Let me tell you why I think I’m not a worthless piece of shit.

  • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

    Flores or Halsey?

  • bonestock94

    Can’t they trick Dayton Moore into giving up something good for Cervelli?

    • CP

      Kenny Williams in a more likely sucker… I mean trade partner.

      • the tenth inning stretch

        “What’s that, Kenny? You want more than just Cervelli? Well you’re in luck, cause we’re willing to offer you JEFF MARQUEZ!”

        -Cash

  • CP

    It’s bad enough that Frankie Cervelli can’t throw anyone out (he’s gunned down 11 of the last 84 that have tried to steal off him, 13.1%), but now he’s gotten into the habit of throwing the ball into center field and giving runners an extra base. It’s not just some annoying problem anymore, it’s in the scouting report and teams are exploiting it.

    What I don’t get about this is that he was very good at throwing out runners before 2010. He was at 43% CS in the majors in 2009 and 36% in his minor league career.

    • CountZero

      SSS — which in this case stands for Steve Sax Syndrome. I.e., I think it’s in his head at this point.

      • CP

        That might be a great excuse to send him down and bring up a replacement. Let him settle down in the minors and get over it.

        • Ted Nelson

          Clearly if something didn’t work once or happened once before it was the team’s fault and will always happen again.

          • The Big City of Dreams

            Well when the organization has made countless mistake on pitchers they are free agents or prospects I understand why ppl question the FO.

            • Ted Nelson

              You can question all you want… However, pitchers getting hurt, not living up to behemoth expectations, and bouncing around before they figure it out is what you should expect. That’s what happens to every single team and does not necessarily mean there were any process errors. There may well have been process errors, but simply looking at a few examples of things that turned out poorly for the club and assuming they did something wrong based on the information they had at the time is pure speculation.

              • The Big City of Dreams

                How is it pure speculation based on a few examples? The list is a long one. When it comes to pitching they haven’t done well. We can go as far back as Pavano or recently with Javy part 2.

                • Ted Nelson

                  A. You are making a sweeping generalization about dozens of people in dozens of roles throughout the organization. The guy who scouts a HS pitcher they do or don’t draft and the guy who scouts Carl Pavano are not the same.

                  B. Look up “confirmation bias.” That’s the key to why it’s speculation.

                  C. No team is perfect. If you look at a list of mistakes as the sole judge of organizational competence… there will be no competent organizations. You need some context.

                  • The Big City of Dreams

                    “A. You are making a sweeping generalization about dozens of people in dozens of roles throughout the organization. The guy who scouts a HS pitcher they do or don’t draft and the guy who scouts Carl Pavano are not the same. ”

                    They all get paid by the same organization to judge talent and make the right decision. Yes they aren’t the same guy but that doesn’t mean the organization doesn’t take some of the blame.

                    “C. No team is perfect. If you look at a list of mistakes as the sole judge of organizational competence… there will be no competent organizations. You need some context.”

                    Forget other teams we’re talking about the Yankees.

                    • RR

                      Problem #1: The fact that we are even discussing Cervelli, who is no more than a double A player, after being swept again by a Division rival is the real problem.
                      Even a part-time observer can see how well Montero would fit into the Yankee’s situation (DH, part-time catcher, injection of youth). What does it take for a player to break through in the Yankee’s organization – which seems to be frozen in inaction?

                    • Ted Nelson

                      “They all get paid by the same organization to judge talent and make the right decision. Yes they aren’t the same guy but that doesn’t mean the organization doesn’t take some of the blame.”

                      Who is this “organization” you speak of? The idea that the Yankees organization culture is just inherently anti-pitching seems odd to me. The organization is made up of dozens of guys, and these guys change over the years. Was Rothschild, for example, a good pitching coach in Chicago… but the moment he got to NYY he magically got sucked into their pitching vortex?

                      “Forget other teams we’re talking about the Yankees.”

                      No. You can’t forget other teams. Simply listing the failures of an organization would result in a similar list for every organization… and in some cases were it doesn’t that’s because they never acquired any talent to begin with. Just saying “the Yankees made some mistakes” while providing no context in terms of the right calls they made or what the number of right and wrong calls is for other teams? That’s totally useless.

                      Most of the “right calls” teams make on US players will involve high first round picks… which the Yankees never have. I’m not saying the Yankees’ results have been good over the years. I’m saying A. use some context: what are other teams doing? who was in charge of what when? Blaming new guys for old guys’ mistakes is silly. and B. There is a difference between using confirmation bias to look at the results and play Monday morning QB vs. actually judging the process and decisions made.

                    • Ted Nelson

                      “What does it take for a player to break through in the Yankee’s organization – which seems to be frozen in inaction?”

                      This is a classic example of how people will bitch about anything… in a thread where most people are bitching the Yankees rush their prospects, there’s a commenter sure that the Yankees incompetently coddle their prospects too much.

          • Ted Nelson

            reply fail…

  • Ted Nelson

    Total speculation, but Noesi might have a change that fooled MiLB hitters but the Yankees don’t think will fool MLB hitters. If you have a tell when you throw your change, you’re just throwing a meatball. Still would think he’d give it a whirl in low-leverage spots.

    “Given the complete debacle of Joba Chamberlain’s development, I’d rather not see the team turn another high-end pitching prospect into a reliever for the big league club then try to turn him back into a starter long-term. I honestly have very little faith in it being done in a way that won’t hurt Banuelos’ long-term development/future.”

    Great use of confirmation bias!

    • CP

      The Yankees have already banned their pitchers from visiting trailer parks and bars in North Carolina.

      • Clay Bellinger

        Brien Taylor reference?

        • Ted Nelson

          Clearly if something didn’t work once or happened once before it was the team’s fault and will always happen again.

          • Clay Bellinger

            Is this directed towards me?

            • Ted Nelson

              Explaining (sarcastically) what I assume is CP’s (sarcastic) rationale behind his/her Brien Taylor reference based on a previous thread where we both agreed confirmation bias is used too much in the Joba case.

              • Clay Bellinger

                Ah I gotcha. I also agree.

  • Michael Kay’s Head

    The fact that Mike thinks Montero is getting called up any day soon excites me. Montero can’t possibly worse than Cervelli. I’m so tired of the overall inconsistentcy of this team.

    • David, Jr.

      Me, too. There is a 99.999999% chance he is a better hitter than Cervelli, unless every scout that has seen him is goofy, and a decent chance (50%?) that he is at least a push as a fielder.

      • MikeD

        Montero is a substantially worse defender than Cervelli. You can put that at 100%.

    • Cris Pengiuci

      He didn’t say he “thinks” Montero will get called up any day. He said Montero “could be called up any day now” andw ouldn’t be surprised if it happened today. Way different.

      • David, Jr.

        You are ignoring “If it happened today I would not be surprised”.

        To me, there is a huge chance that he would help the team right now, both at right-handed DH and at BUC. If he isn’t brought up very soon, I put a different twist on that, namely that something is going on via a major trade with Montero included. If they are really committed to him being a part of the team going forward, this is the ideal time to bring him to a team that needs a kick in the ass shaking up. If they don’t, I can see it meaning something else.

        • Ted Nelson

          Or it just means that they think his long-term interests are best served by leaving him in the minors to develop rather than bringing him up for sporadic MLB playing time. I’m not saying that’s right or wrong, but it’s probably easily the most likely case and you’re choosing to ignore it.

          • David, Jr.

            No. I am fully aware of that possibility, not ignoring it at all, but looking at Montero’s minor league development and the current structure of the team with Cervelli at BUC and weak DH numbers by Posada, etal. and speculating that the other two possibilities are more logical.

            I agree with Mike that Montero could be brought up any day. If he isn’t, I suspect something else may be going on, given both what I say above and given the extreme need for a quality starter.

            • Ted Nelson

              I agree he ***could*** be brought up any day too. I am just not ignoring that the Yankees might feel his long-term interests and theirs *could* be better served with him in AAA. Whether you know the possibility exists or not, you are ignoring it and saying either he’s brought up or he’s traded. Another option exists. If they don’t bring him up, I think it’s far more likely that’s the reason than they are trading him in a blockbuster deal.

              • David, Jr.

                I am just ignoring that possibility because I am dense and simple minded, unlike you, of course.

          • David, Jr.

            Fleshing out why I believe if he isn’t brought up something might be going on:

            Fact – Extreme need for a starting pitcher. IMHO anybody who doesn’t believe that is delusional.

            Fact – They are willing to trade him in the right circumstances. See the Cliff Lee rental offer.

            Fact – He is generally regarded as a near-certain middle of the order hitter. See Baseball America – “veteran scout said he is the best young hitter that he has seen in years”, etc.

            That should bring a top quality young starting pitcher. Of course, that depends upon someone else’s view of his defensive capabilities. I understand that.

            Let’s say that the Giants dangle Cain or Bumgarner for him. The Yankees might look at it like it is a Hell of a lot easier going forward to find bats than to find starters. If something like that is brewing, they would not bring him up now.

            Speculation of the highest order. No doubt. But fun to try to figure it out. Like a puzzle. One thing I am sure of is that they aren’t going to sit with what they have and do nothing and just ride it out. Not going to happen.

        • Cris Pengiuci

          Not ignoring the “if it happened today” comment at all. The fact that Mike wouldn’t be surprised if it happened is not the same as him saying he “thinks” it will happen.

  • CountZero

    “Despite his general awfulness, I’m certain that Cervelli has some value on the trade market. He’s cheap and young, and the position itself is pretty much a wasteland these days. The Giants are looking for catching help following Buster Posey’s injury, the Pirates are as well with Ryan Doumit and Chris Snyder on the shelf.”

    Unfortunately this is a double-edged sword. If you call Montero up now and he pulls one of those “scared kid” routines (e.g., Melky’s first callup), you will just have to ride it out because once Cervelli gets traded or released, it will be all but impossible to find another backup C.

    I’d do it anyway at this point, but that is a legitimate concern in this market. I hope he’s mentally tough.

    • ChrisS

      Except that Gustavo Molina is in the minors still. He’s not great, but he can catch a few games a week and not give up triples.

      • Clay Bellinger

        As hard as it may be to believe, Molina would be a decent drop-off from Cervelli. It wouldn’t be ok at all for him to “catch a few games a week.”

        • Ted Nelson

          With Russell Martin hurt, plus the general injury rate for Cs, plus Cervelli’s option… I don’t see why it’s an either/or scenario. Bring Jesus up and send Paco down to figure out how to play baseball.

          • Clay Bellinger

            It’s not at all an either/or scenario, which makes the switch even easier.

        • Voice of Reason

          True story. It’s pretty clear than Gustavo Molina has no business playing in the majors, and you’ve got to have more sense than to let him just because Cervelli let a few throws get away. That’s insane. Montero would be a clear and easy upgrade, but it’s very hard to imagine that the Yankees would call him up unless he needed to start.

    • Ted Nelson

      I believe Frankie still has an option remaining, so the Yankees don’t have to trade him. Maybe it does, but I sort of doubt a demotion hurts his trade value.

      • Rick in Boston

        I think he’s got at least one. The problem with Cervelli is he’s missed a bunch of time with various injuries, so piecing together what was an option and what was a rehab assignment is a bit difficult.

  • The Big City of Dreams

    “I honestly have very little faith in it being done in a way that won’t hurt Banuelos’ long-term development/future.”

    You’re not the only one.

  • http://myspace.com/bksmalls Smallz

    “I’d rather not see the team turn another high-end pitching prospect into a reliever for the big league club then try to turn him back into a starter long-term. I honestly have very little faith in it being done in a way that won’t hurt Banuelos’ long-term development/future.”

    Well said, couldnt agree more. I’d still like to see them give Ryan Pope or George Kontos a shot at major league bullpen. I also dont really understand why if Jerry Blevins is on waivers the Yankees havent claimed him yet. We desperatley need someone other than Logan.

  • The Big City of Dreams

    Problem #1: The fact that we are even discussing Cervelli, who is no more than a double A player, after being swept again by a Division rival is the real problem.
    Even a part-time observer can see how well Montero would fit into the Yankee’s situation (DH, part-time catcher, injection of youth). What does it take for a player to break through in the Yankee’s organization – which seems to be frozen in inaction?

    ————————————-

    Did you reply to the right person? I never brought up Cervelli.

    With that being said Montero is be called up it’s just a matter of when. I would be shocked if he isn’t here before the month is over

  • Total Dominication

    I’m going to the game today. It would be awesome if it was Montero’s debut.

  • The Big City of Dreams

    “Who is this “organization” you speak of? The idea that the Yankees organization culture is just inherently anti-pitching seems odd to me. The organization is made up of dozens of guys, and these guys change over the years. Was Rothschild, for example, a good pitching coach in Chicago… but the moment he got to NYY he magically got sucked into their pitching vortex?”

    They’re not anti pitching..they’re just not good at evaluating it. Some ppl and organizations are better at certain aspects than other people and organizations. It’s the same in any walk of life. Some individuals are better public speakers than others. Some corporations produce better products than other corporations.

    “No. You can’t forget other teams. Simply listing the failures of an organization would result in a similar list for every organization… and in some cases were it doesn’t that’s because they never acquired any talent to begin with. Just saying “the Yankees made some mistakes” while providing no context in terms of the right calls they made or what the number of right and wrong calls is for other teams? That’s totally useless. ”

    We don’t have all day to go chapter and verse on mistakes made by 30 MLB teams. The topic brought up pertains to the Yankees and their inability to properly develop pitching.

    “Most of the “right calls” teams make on US players will involve high first round picks… which the Yankees never have.”

    Again with the high picks…yes they play a role but you mean to tell me with a little bit of luck the Yankees can’t produce 1. Forget an ace or even a 2 where is a middle rotation guy. Don’t bring up Kennedy. He’s no longer in this organization. Any success he has will be attributed to the D’backs not the Yanks.

    • Ted Nelson

      “Some ppl and organizations are better at certain aspects than other people and organizations.”

      Dozens of people the Yankees have hired from dozens of other organizations are all bad at evaluating pitching?

      I understand what you’re saying. I think you are creating a caricature of reality (way, way, way overgeneralizing) and ignoring a lot of context while using confirmation bias as your proof.

      “We don’t have all day to go chapter and verse on mistakes made by 30 MLB teams. The topic brought up pertains to the Yankees and their inability to properly develop pitching.”

      Inability compared to what? If I tell you I took a test and got 10 questions wrong, how did I do on that test?

      “you mean to tell me with a little bit of luck the Yankees can’t produce 1.”

      Have you bothered to look up “confirmation bias” yet? This is exactly my point… luck plays a huge role here.

      ” Any success he has will be attributed to the D’backs not the Yanks.”

      That makes a lot of sense. No credit for drafting him. No credit for bringing him through the minors. No credit to USC. No credit to HS. Little League. Genetics. Luck. The D’Backs clearly had control over every aspect of his development since birth.

      • The Big City of Dreams

        “Dozens of people the Yankees have hired from dozens of other organizations are all bad at evaluating pitching?”

        The results speak for themselves Ted. I got have a list ready to post but go through the names they have more swing and misses than they do hits.

        “I understand what you’re saying. I think you are creating a caricature of reality (way, way, way overgeneralizing) and ignoring a lot of context while using confirmation bias as your proof.”

        Yea I’m completely wrong the mistakes they have made just happened and their track record is misrepresented.

        “Inability compared to what? If I tell you I took a test and got 10 questions wrong, how did I do on that test?

        Compared to any other team with a pulse. I don’t expect them to produce a rotation like the O’s did many yr ago but produce 1 pitcher. One pitcher should at least have fallen in their lap.

        “Have you bothered to look up “confirmation bias” yet? This is exactly my point… luck plays a huge role here. ”

        Yea luck plays a role but I refuse to be like other ppl on here and claim the Yankees have been unlucky. I’m sorry no one can be that unlucky over an extended period of time when your the richest franchise in sports with unlimited resources.

        “That makes a lot of sense. No credit for drafting him. No credit for bringing him through the minors. No credit to USC. No credit to HS. Little League. Genetics. Luck. The D’Backs clearly had control over every aspect of his development since birth.’

        I’m referring to his major league success. I’m sorry but Yankee fans can’t look at Kennedy and say hey there goes one of our pitchers that we produced. I don’t hear Philly fans taking bows for Gavin Floyd.

        • Ted Nelson

          “The results speak for themselves Ted. I got have a list ready to post but go through the names they have more swing and misses than they do hits.”

          Man you are dense… this is my whole point. Every team does. Way, way, way, way more swings and misses than hits.

          “Yea I’m completely wrong the mistakes they have made just happened and their track record is misrepresented.”

          Yes, this is true. My listing only the negatives you are proving nothing.

          “Compared to any other team with a pulse.”

          This is wrong. You haven’t bothered to look at other teams and have acknowledged as much. Do yourself a favor and look at not just the Yankees failures and other team’s great successes with top 10 draft picks… but the whole picture.

          “Yea luck plays a role but I refuse to be like other ppl on here and claim the Yankees have been unlucky.”

          Because you have figured out how to quantify luck? Man, you must be the richest person on the planet.

          “I’m sorry no one can be that unlucky over an extended period of time when your the richest franchise in sports with unlimited resources.”

          You are ignoring context and their successes. You are still ignoring that the people at the beginning of this extended period you refer to are not the same as the people now… and that over that period they’ve had enough pitching to make the playoffs 15 of 16 seasons.

          “I’m referring to his major league success. I’m sorry but Yankee fans can’t look at Kennedy and say hey there goes one of our pitchers that we produced. I don’t hear Philly fans taking bows for Gavin Floyd.”

          You are so simple minded… everything is not black and white. It’s not the Yankees’ credit or the D’Backs’ credit… life is not so simple.

          • The Big City of Dreams

            “Man you are dense… this is my whole point. Every team does. Way, way, way, way more swings and misses than hits. ”

            SMH again with the insults. I told you before if I don’t insult you than stop insulting me. Enough already. The point is those teams at least have a hit. Where is the Yankees hit? Kennedy who doesn’t pitch here, Joba who is injury prone or Hughes who is the same as Joba.

            “Yes, this is true. My listing only the negatives you are proving nothing. ”

            It would be a lot easier if there were some positives to list. I like D-rob that’s one but beyond that….

            “This is wrong. You haven’t bothered to look at other teams and have acknowledged as much. Do yourself a favor and look at not just the Yankees failures and other team’s great successes with top 10 draft picks… but the whole picture. ”

            We’re looking at the whole picture the Yankees haven’t produced a starter and other teams have. It’s as simple as that. You can point to the giants and Lowry didn’t work out and then I can come back and say Lincecum did. The point is the Giants have a guy that made it through the Yankees don’t.

            “Because you have figured out how to quantify luck? Man, you must be the richest person on the planet.”

            15 yrs since the last starter…repeat 15 yrs. The unluckiest person in the world isn’t that unlucky.

            “You are ignoring context and their successes. You are still ignoring that the people at the beginning of this extended period you refer to are not the same as the people now… and that over that period they’ve had enough pitching to make the playoffs 15 of 16 seasons. ”

            Their playoff record speaks for itself. The issue is the Yankees can not simply rely on free agent pick-ups as the did in the past. They need to develop their own and so far they haven’t.

            “You are so simple minded… everything is not black and white. It’s not the Yankees’ credit or the D’Backs’ credit… life is not so simple.”

            Lol in terms of him pitching well right now do you think anyone outside of the Yankee fan base looks at Kennedy and says the Yankees developed him or did a good job in doing so. Chris Carpenter struggled as a Blue Jay then he went to St. Louis and found success. When they talk about his turn around as a pitcher is any credit given to the Blue Jays…hell no it’s not.

          • David, Jr.

            “Dense”? “Simple minded”? My advice is to lighten up, Teddie. Relax and smell the beautiful flowers of life.

            • The Big City of Dreams

              Ted throws insults from time to time and that’s ok if someone throws them at him first but why take it beyond baseball when it’s not even on that level. Yesterday he asked what school did I attend?

  • Bpdelia

    Sorry but I dont think there is anything wrong with breaking in a kid in the, pen. Dantana, wainright, mejia, feliz, chapman, sale, morrow.

    thats just recently. Koufax. . . It used to be standard procedure. Banuelos splits dont make him a loogy candidate but there id nothing wrong with using a kid in the pen. Noesi is ok but not banuelos?

    I dont think it’s needed but I dont see any thing other than anecdotes to prove this theory. One guy got hurt almost 3 years after being converted. Gimme a break already.

    • Ted Nelson

      Agreed

    • The Big City of Dreams

      but there id nothing wrong with using a kid in the pen

      ————————————————-

      Please God no not again. Not even if he’s just getting lefties out. No let the kid pitch as a starter. No messing around.

      • Ted Nelson

        It worked so poorly for Pedro, Curt Schilling, Nolan Ryan, David Wells, Adam Wainwright, Kenny Rogers, Sandy Koufax, and dozens upon dozens of other pitchers, right?

        And of course it’s 100% certain that this is why Joba has become what he’s become, right? We know that with more time in the minors as a starter he’d be a better pitcher right now, right?

        • The Big City of Dreams

          “And of course it’s 100% certain that this is why Joba has become what he’s become, right? ”

          Are we certain no but it played a role and no one can argue that. The stuff they pulled with him in 09 was a joke. Hey kid we’re going to give you long rest, normal rest, long rest, normal rest and then when that doesn’t work lets try 3 inning relief starts. :)

          “We know that with more time in the minors as a starter he’d be a better pitcher right now, right?”

          Maybe but we know what he is now since being called up by the Yankees and being moved between the rotation and pen.

          • YanksFan

            Could the problem not be that they put him in the pen in 07 & then made hime a starter BUT that they put him in the pen in 08 & then made him a starter in 08.

            I’ve been in Ted’s camp ever since this argument started aboout coming up a reliever. How about one more name – David Price.

            The pen/starter debate is more fan/media driven. How many of the fans had to listen to Francesca ignore history for his own narrative about Joba?

            • The Big City of Dreams

              Price spent a couple of months in the pen.

              “BUT that they put him in the pen in 08 & then made him a starter in 08.”

              Could be that could have been an issue. I also don’t like the fact that after he can back from his injury they pitched him down the stretch in a lost season.

              • Ted Nelson

                These could have been bad decisins that led to any issues he’s had… Or they could not have been. He might be in the same spot or a worse one with a different approach. There’s a huge difference between disagreeing with their approach and stating as fact that they made a mistake.

                • The Big City of Dreams

                  You made some good points but

                  I think it was a mistake to bring him back after the injury. The season was lost and there was nothing to be gained. It made no sense to have him pitch in relief in a season that died weeks/months prior to his return.

        • JobaWockeeZ

          We know that with more time in the minors as a starter he’d be a better pitcher right now, right?

          I don’t who why the fuck you’re mocking people like that when you don’t fucking know yourself.

          If your list of a million pitchers have less innings that Joba in the minors then point it out but don’t fucking insult people for something that isn’t so fucking clear cut.

          • Ted Nelson

            A. Why the fuck I say that is because saying X happened then Y happened, so Y was cause by X with no evidence is an illogical argument. It’s called confirmation bias.

            B. Every time the subject comes up pitchers with less development time and more starting success are brought up. People chose to stick with confirmation bias rather than look into it.