Jul
18

The steep, but reasonable, price of Ubaldo Jimenez

By

It appears that the Yankees’ Plan C is continuing to evolve as expected. After the Phillies signed Cliff Lee and Andy Pettitte retired, they were stuck in a holding pattern. With nothing of note immediately available on the trade market, the only reasonable plan was to fill the rotation with stopgaps and hope that someone unexpected hit the trade market around deadline time. At the time I thought that might be Chris Carpenter, but it turned out to be someone better. For the past week-plus we’ve heard non-stop talk about Rockies ace Ubaldo Jimenez, whom no one thought would become available this year. While the rumors started with interest from the Reds, the focus has shifted to the Yankees.

In pure player terms, Jimenez is exactly what the Yankees need right now. The pitching staff did a phenomenal job in the first half, but there are concerns going forward. While Colon’s and Garcia’s previous two starts aren’t necessarily a portend for the future, it’s certainly a possibility that their luck has run out. That would not only leave the Yankees searching for pitching, but top end pitching. Jimenez has been just that in the past two-plus seasons, with a 3.35 ERA and 3.27 FIP in 550 innings since 2009. Even more impressively, he has a 2.94 ERA and 3.04 FIP in 291 innings away from the hitter-friendly Coors Field.

In Jimenez the Yankees would get their No. 1a to Sabathia’s No. 1, and they’d have him at a steep discount through 2013 (he’ll surely void his 2014 option, as is his right if he’s traded). Given his talent and contract, the Yankees would have to part with a significant package of prospects to entice the Rockies. As Mike said in the obligatory Ubaldo post, think the original Dan Haren trade, which sent a legion of prospects to the A’s. We got a preview of a possible package over the weekend, when SI’s Jon Heyman noted the Rockies’ asking price: Jesus Montero, Manny Banuelos, Dellin Betances, and Ivan Nova. That’s steep for sure, but it’s really just a starting point. They’re in the driver’s seat, so they might as well ask for the moon. The Yankees, Heyman further notes, will not part with any of those three pitchers along with Montero in a trade. Folks, we have what appear to be real, live negotiations.

(Unless, of course, you believe Buster Olney, who says that the two sides haven’t exchanged names. But, given their track records from this past winter, I’ll actually trust Heyman on this one. Plus, having names in place makes for better discussion.)

Once both sides step back from their original stances, the progression is logical. The Yankees will remove one of the pitchers from the deal, most likely Banuelos, leaving the package at Montero, Betances, Nova, and presumably another prospect, likely someone in the No. 8 to 20 range on the Yanks list. That’s a deal I would green light. There are no guarantees in baseball, and that goes doubly for guys who have yet to play in the majors. Both Montero and Betances have major upside and could contribute to future Yankees teams. But they both have enough flaws to leave the Yankees concerned. Cashing them in for a proven No. 1 or 2 pitcher who is right in the prime of his career provides the difficult balance between winning now and winning in the future.

Of course, it’s unlikely that the matter unfolds that smoothly. Two obstacles could stand in the way from the Yankees perspective. First is the matter of Banuelos. He’s the top pitching prospect in the Yankees organization, and this morning Heyman dropped an interesting item: the Rockies want a chip better than Montero as the centerpiece in any trade. That would seem to indicate Banuelos (though it could mean Betances, since Betances has a slightly higher ceiling). The trade does change if the Rockies demand Banuelos in Betances’s stead. He’s a lefty and a good bet to be in the rotation sometime in 2012, so it’s easy to see why the Yankees would be reluctant to include him.

The second obstacle is Ivan Nova. He’s the Yankees No. 6 starter right now, and their only real backup plan who has major league experience. Trading him would make Adam Warren the best depth option, since they’re apparently set on leaving Hector Noesi in the bullpen. True, acquiring Jimenez would give them a rotation of Sabathia-Jimenez-Hughes-Burnett-Colon/Garcia, but that fifth spot will still be important during the stretch run — more important still, because Burnett is pitching more like a No. 5, and Hughes still has plenty to prove. I still think the Yankees should go ahead, but I would understand their reluctance to remove MLB-tested depth options.

Chances are nothing happens on this front. The Rockies shouldn’t be overly motivated to move Jimenez, given his team-friendly contract and ace-like pitching. The prospective Yankees’ package of a front-line pitching prospect, a power hitting prospect, and a major league ready pitcher might be enticing, but I’m not sure it’s far enough over the top for the Rockies to take. Anything more than Montero-Betances-Nova plus a lesser prospect would have to give the Yankees pause. While Jimenez would help, they simply can’t empty the farm for him. With all of these moving parts, it’s likely the Yankees will have to turn elsewhere for pitching help. But if they can strike a deal in which they retain Banuelos, I think it would behoove them, both for this year and the future, to pull the trigger. It’s not often that a pitcher of Jimenez’s caliber becomes available. Considering the dearth of free agent pitching in the coming years, and the trend of signing young pitchers to long-term contracts, this is a move the Yankee should make.

Categories : Trade Deadline

335 Comments»

  1. The Yankees will remove one of the pitchers from the deal, most likely Banuelos, leaving the package at Montero, Betances, Nova, and presumably another prospect, likely someone in the No. 8 to 20 range on the Yanks list. That’s a deal I would green light.

    I could live with that too, I suppose.

    Ubaldo Jimenez is a damn good starting pitcher. If we get him and Hughes makes it back, you’ll have CC-Ubaldo-Hughes-Burnett-Colon-Garcia-Noesi as the top 7 starters, more than enough to handle any playoff series.

    It’ll suck balls seeing Montero hit .299/.380/.530 in Colorado for the next decade, though.

    • bonestock94 says:

      Also Betances is 6-8, and I would struggle with not seeing that in (real) pinstripes. But still, 2 ACES!!

    • Chip says:

      I agree that it’s going to be difficult to watch Montero put up amazing numbers in Colorado but keep in mind that he’d be doing it as a first baseman. I’m actually more worried that Betances learns some control and becomes…….Ubaldo Jimenez

      • Louis says:

        Wait…. Jimenez has control? Since when?

      • Drew says:

        This is the Granderson for Austin Jackson trade all over again. You trade prospects for proven talent every, single, time.

        • A-Jax wasn’t the prospect that those three are right now by the time he had been traded.

        • Stan the Man says:

          Every single time really? Yanks haven’t exactly won the Granderson trade and they were taken to the cleaners by Pittsburgh in the deal for Marte and Nady.

          • Jerome S. says:

            They won the Granderson trade.

            But the idea isn’t to win trades. The idea is for everyone to win. You want a player like Curtis Granderson? It’s going to cost you! Nothing is free. Neither is Jimenez. In a perfect world, both teams benefit equally.

            • Stan the Man says:

              How do you consider that trade a win right now? Granderson is having a great season this year but he was shit last year.

              Yanks current needs – starting pitching and left handed reliver. Yanks traded 2 starters in that deal.

              • bexarama says:

                Granderson is having a great season this year but he was shit last year.

                A 113 wRC+ from CF, good defense, and 3.6 WAR is a shit year?

                • Stan the Man says:

                  You got me again I didn’t realize we made that trade based on those numbers only. Good job proving me wrong.

                  It’s funny I remember reading this offseason and found it strange when Granderson said he had a good year because of these stats and opinions: 113 wRC+ from CF, good defense, and 3.6 WAR

                  New rule anytime you want to reference stats reference all of them and not the ones it took you 2 years to figure out.

                  • V says:

                    Are you insane?

                    • Jim S says:

                      If you have to ask…

                      I also love how he disses good defense, as a whole. Bexy didn’t even cite UZR or anything controversial.

                  • bexarama says:

                    …I don’t mean to be rude, but what? You said Granderson had a shit year last year and that’s just not accurate.

                    • Stan the Man says:

                      Curtis Granderson is having a great year this year but lets be honest last year was a not his year. THe Yanks didn’t trade Austin Jackson, Ian Kennedy, and Phil Coke a year after winning a WS for the guy he was last year. To jusfity that with lame stats is waste of everyone’s time. We all know what his stats were last year and he spent a lot of time this off-season working on his hitting so he wouldn’t be an automatic out like he was from April to mid-August.

                      Fact the Yanks still need good starting pitching and we gave up a piece of that for Granderson. Since we are still looking for that piece than it is tough to declare a clear winner in that trade. Really no need to bring additonal stats sice he has been an legit all-star this year.

                    • bexarama says:

                      That isn’t what you said. The “they gave up too much” argument is a legit one, but you said he had a shit year. He didn’t.

                      Also, please tell me what stats are non-lame and usable.

                    • Stan the Man says:

                      When you claim he had a good year because of wRC+ and WAR you aren’t bringing his full year. He was a .247 hitter who was an automatic vs. lefties. Did he hit some HR’s yes, mostly at home and all to RF. Did he play well down the stretch after getting benched in the middle of a pennant race…yes. Do players who have good seasons get benched for 2 straight games? No. He didn’t have a good year last year and Curtis Granderson himself said it. Stats used to say other wise are useless.

                      If you didn’t have a good year than you had a shitty one. If you don’t like that word then feel free to use another but it shouldn’t be a positive one.

              • How do you consider that trade a win right now?

                Because the marginal utility of getting an MVP candidate is worth more than three good players, all of whom have already been replaced.

                As good as IPK has been, the step-down from him to all the non-CC members of the starting rotation has been smaller than the step up from AJax to Granderson.

                • V says:

                  I don’t think people quite understand how good Curtis Granderson is. Fourth best CF in BASEBALL from beginning of 2010 to today. Hamilton/CarGo/McCutchen/Granderson.

                • Stan the Man says:

                  Granderson has been great this year and no doubt he provides more offesnive pop than AJAX in that regard the trade is clearly benefitting the Yanks but when your still searching for starting pitching and you tossed Kennedy into that deal for no reason, then I have a tough time calling it a win not even 2 yrs into the trade.

                  The Yanks have traded Kennedy and Karstens as toss ins for players they in all actuality didn’t need. To trade for Jimenez is to finally get what they have been looking for half a decade and that is a starter who could lenthen the 5-man staff. I am for that but at some point the farm-system will get depleted and they will be back to being the 2002 to 2008 Yanks.

                  • bexarama says:

                    I am for that but at some point the farm-system will get depleted and they will be back to being the 2002 to 2008 Yanks.

                    can we stop acting like this is a bad thing?

                  • bexarama says:

                    also.

                    The Yanks have traded Kennedy and Karstens as toss ins for players they in all actuality didn’t need.

                    a. I really don’t think Kennedy was a “toss-in” to the Granderson deal. And if Granderson didn’t come here – well you never know for sure, but who is playing CF for us now? Austin Jackson? Yeah I’d rather have Granderson.

                    b. Minus the whole World Series Hero Damaso Marte thing, the trade with Karstens didn’t work out very well, I agree. But Karstens is really not any loss. He’s the same pitcher he was last year, when he had a 4.92 ERA… basically, only his BABIP and LOB% are way down.

                    • Stan the Man says:

                      Good points and I haven’t said Granderson isn’t an upgrade offensively from the combination of Gardner/Melky/AJAX. He is and will continue to be. The point though was it a trade they needed to make? THe Tigers needed to make it since they were getting rid of salary, the DBACKS needed to make it since they needed to upgrade their rotation. The Yanks could still have won a WS with Melky/Gardner/AJAX but what they really needed was an upgrade in their rotation.

                      Trading away chips from your farm system isn’t a bad thing as long as it answers a direct need. Trading chips for Ubaldo would answer that need. Leaving the cupboards bare because of previous trades isn’t a good thing since then you are left with the Yankees of 2004 to 2008 who weren’t close to winning a WS. The Yanks need to keep a strong farm system to help keep costs down so they maintain roster flexibilty throughout the season.

                    • bexarama says:

                      I’m not sure you’re going to see this, but…

                      The Yanks could still have won a WS with Melky/Gardner/AJAX
                      Could they have? Yeah. They have/had enough firepower in the infield. But the Yankees’ OF is a huuuuge strength right now, and I don’t think that OF would be. It’d be nice to have the current version of IPK but we don’t know if that version of IPK would be as good as he’s been in the NL.

                      Leaving the cupboards bare because of previous trades isn’t a good thing since then you are left with the Yankees of 2004 to 2008 who weren’t close to winning a WS.
                      The 2004 Yankees were one game away from going to the World Series. The 2006 and 2007 Yankees were pretty good teams – by the end of 2007 the pitching came around and the offense was tremendous. If CMW didn’t have two awful starts in the 2007 playoffs, who knows what we’re talking about with them. I think 2005 was pretty blargh but I wouldn’t call any of the other teams ones who weren’t close to winning the WS. They were flawed, sometimes very flawed, but they were definitely playoff-worthy teams.

          • Bavarian Yankee says:

            maybe they didn’t win the Granderson trade but it worked out pretty good for every team that was involved.

        • Adam B says:

          it is starting to look like IPK is the one that got away in that deal.

    • Crime Dog says:

      Monteros bored with batting averages so he keeps it interesting by hitting 299 and not 300

    • Grit for Brains says:

      This is pretty much my exact sentiment. When I saw that asking price I originally thought it was prohibitive but that is how a negotiation works I suppose…If you do just that and take out either Banuelos or Betances it becomes a deal you make even if it means seeing the prospects we’ve become attached to become very good player for another organization, at least it would be an NL one.

      /Waits for Gammons to call Ubaldo a poor man’s Ranaudo

    • hornblower says:

      Why would the Rockies want to trade Jimenez if he is so good? True he had an excellent year last season but this one not so much.
      In a short time Nova may be just as good.
      This is the usual July nonsense. Ignore it.

  2. lardin says:

    Couldnt you make the trade you are advocating for King Felix? Hes younger and has a proven track record in the American league. Yes hes more expensive, but money is no issue for the Yankees.

  3. Simon says:

    So do you really believe a deal will get done? I would hope so, but I could also see Cashman letting this go.

  4. Zach says:

    I think most of us can agree that Montero + Betances + others is a fair starting point. It’s the others that make or break the deal.

    • BklynJT says:

      Of course there will be those that say… How can you not make the deal because of “others”. I personally can’t stand that logic… It’s not the “others”, its the “others” + the premium talent you are already reluctantly giving up.

    • Lars says:

      Either way, Cashman is still paying twice for Ubaldo. The only reason this makes any sense is to assume the Yankees will sign him long term, which they would have a chance to do once his contract expires. Are are these prospects 6 years of cost controlled performance worth 2/3 of Ubaldo?

      • steve (different one) says:

        I disagree. He is paying (heavily) once. Ubaldo is NOT a free agent for several years. His contract is well below market. Lee was paying twice, Santana was paying twice. This is a little different.

      • MannyGeee says:

        if Ubaldo is NOT traded, Colorado will very well likely sign him long term next year. kinda like that Felix guy in Seattle signed, making him virtually untouchable…

        *hey, maybe we should try and trade for him instead….* BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZTTTTTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!

        (TSJC’s Shock Collar theory hard at work…)

  5. BklynJT says:

    Is there any concern about how Ubaldo’s numbers will translate in the AL East. There should be some projection tool that can adjust an NL pitcher’s numbers to AL (with DH) and then furthermore to AL East. I hate the idea of paying top price and getting back less than we anticipated.

    • X-62 says:

      Well I guess one positive in the NLW is a lot easier then the ALE thing is that Ubaldo was out of whack a little bit early in the year and struggled and at that time he was mostly facing Nl teams while lately he has been very good, like in his last 9 starts I believe his ERA is in the low 2′s and during that time he has faced some AL teams so it would seem to me when you have pure stuff like his it doesn’t really matter what lineup he faces if he’s on he’s on or if he’s off he’s off.

      I think the AL/NL thing matters more when your talking about someone who isn’t a ”stuff” pitcher you know like Ryan Dempster or something, when a guy has a 93-98 MPH FB and a great CH along with his breaking stuff I think it makes it a safer bet that they’ll work in any league.

      • Anchen says:

        I’d have a few concerns, since Ubaldo’s stuff isn’t quite so impressive this year, and his numbers are against a weaker league too. I also wonder why with all his stuff he never struck out more than 9 per 9 in the NL with pichers and such. Add that his control isn’t really exceptional (about 3.5 per 9, not bad but not great either), and I worry at least a bit. Add that his GB% has declined in recent years and he’s giving up quite a few gopher balls this year and you have potential danger signs. In his favor he has exceptional road stats, and coors field can obviously be brutal for a pitcher. And while I wish he posted verlander like strike out rates, it’s still pretty good.

      • jsbrendog says:

        great pitchers pitch great anywhere.

      • danimal says:

        If you look at his away stats, they’re significantly better than his stats at Coors. Here you see that the extreme hitters park has not helped him.

        If you look at Dustin Pedroia’s stats away vs. home, you see that Fenway helps him a lot.

        In these 2 cases in particular, the park makes a huge difference in the performance of the player… one positively, one negatively.

        I do think that the park factor offsets the whole discussion of the offenses that he plays against on a regular basis and the 9 spot being a pitcher much of the time.

        I’d compare this to Sabathia moreso than to Javy Vazquez. Sabathia absolutely DESTROYED NL central hitting, and then came back to earth a little in the AL East. He’s still exceptional now.

        I imagine Jimenez doing somewhat the same thing.

      • Klemy says:

        He also pitches at Coors Field for a high portion of his games. Getting out of there might just offset any thought of an AL East decline.

  6. David, Jr. says:

    I’m not sure that this will get done, but I believe that something will. Cash will compare this deal with another one that would allow retaining more of the farm system. One guy that I think of is Rickey Nolasco, who would seem like a decent fit at a lower price.

  7. Chip says:

    Look at it this way, is Betances more likely to become Randy Johnson or Jon Rauch? He really hasn’t been healthy and effective at the same time in his career over a long stretch so he’s a huge wild card. I think putting Jimenez in the same dugout as CC and Rivera could help him learn to pitch when he can’t throw it by guys at 99 mph

  8. danimal says:

    At first, I was very much against trading Montero for certain guys. His name kept getting floated for various lesser pitchers, and I thought that was just a bad idea. I see Jimenez in a tier of pitchers that very few guys could fit into…

    The trade being suggested above is a good trade. I’d prefer not to trade nova, but if Jimenez is to come in and we kept nova, we’d have 7 starters we could use, and potentially don’t need that many, as long as the old boys’ arms don’t fall off.

    I make this trade if I’m Cash. Huge difference maker.

  9. Mister Delaware says:

    I’d sign up for Montero + Betances + more but not super enthusiastically. Montero + Nova + 3 or 4 more non- Banuelos/Betances pieces and I’m very enthusiastic. Like all caps enthusiastic. Not that I love trading Montero, but for a pitcher of Jimenez’s age and caliber and contract status, I’m in.

    • boogie down says:

      Agreed, though I don’t think the deal has any chance of getting done of Montero & Nova are the two headliners from our end. I really do hope a proposal of Montero, Betances, Nova + lesser prospect would be sufficient, because Ubaldo could potentially put us over the top.

  10. Mike HC says:

    There is a definite risk that his diminished stuff this year is going to stick around for the next couple of years at least. He is still very cheap for the next 2.5 seasons, so even an above average performance for the next 2.5 seasons will still be of great value to the Yanks. I don’t think it is worth 3 of the Montero, Nova, Banuelos, Betances group, but definitely worth one, and possibly worth two.

  11. Guest says:

    I’m just not sold enough on Ubaldo to give the Rockies the kind of HR package they would need to send out west in order to get this done.

    Yes, he’s an elite talent who has (overall) pitch at an elite level over the last year and a half.

    But the BBs walk bother me. In the AL East, BBs are death. And a pitcher whose control is improving but still suspect, even with elite stuff, stands a non-zero chance of struggling in the AL East. More than non-zero.

    No one is untradable. And there are certainly players out there where Jesus + Banuelos/Betances + more + more would still be a reasonable trade. But you want that guy to be as close to a sure thing as possible (the King Felix’ of the world). Because of the inconsistent control, I’m not sure Ubaldo falls that into category.

  12. CMP says:

    If you see Jimenez as a true number 1 starter and they can keep ManBan out of the deal, I think you have no choice but to pull the trigger.

    It’s a huge risk though bringing in a NL pitcher to the AL east especially with him losing 2 MPH off his fastball this year while sending back that kind of high ceiling talent.

  13. Soam says:

    are you guys talking about the same ubaldo? The guy pitches to the 3 of the 5 worst offenses in baseball. (pads,giants,dodgers)
    Not only is he not an ace, but I’m not convinced he’d even be a number 2 in the AL east. Other than his first half of 2010 which was an outlier, he’s never pitched at a high level.

    I’d rather keep our prospects and sign CJ Wilson this offseason. Ubaldo isn’t worth utterly destroying the farm for.

    • Mister Delaware says:

      1 start against the Padres, 2 against the Dodgers. 2 against the Brewers as well. Drew the Tigers and Yankees in interleague. Wouldn’t freak out over the label NL West.

    • Cris Pengiuci says:

      Absolutely! It’s a no brainer that the Yankees can and will sign CJ Wilson after the season!

      Cliff Lee says hi.

    • jsbrendog says:

      cj wilson? seriously?

    • X-62 says:

      Combined 08 and 09 when he first became a full time starter he was worth 10 fWAR and his career ERA+ is 131 even this year where he started so rough he has been well above average so he is certainly not a one hit wonder.

      Keep in mind as well he struggled early when he faced mostly weak NL teams but has been terrific lately while faceing some AL teams and better NL teams, Ubaldo like all great pitchers can beat anyone when he’s on it doesn’t matter if their a NL team or an AL team.

  14. Mike HC says:

    Just curious on the RAB consensus.

    Would you prefer to trade:

    Montero and Banuelos

    or Montero, Betances and Nova.

    • Mister Delaware says:

      I’d rather trade package B.

    • David, Jr. says:

      A great question. The second one for me.

    • DCBX says:

      You can throw in another prospect of your choice on package B and I still keep Banuelos.

    • YankeesJunkie says:

      B

      Betances has higher upside, but Banuelos is a 20 yr old lefty and Nova is a number 5 who could be replaced by possibly Warren, Phelps, Noesi within 12 months. Also, Nova could be a valuable #3 or #4 in the NL West.

    • boogie down says:

      Definitely the latter. Must… keep… Banuelos.

      • Mike HC says:

        In order to trade Montero and Banuelos in the same deal, I would think that would require a more sure bet than Ubaldo. Those are two very talented young players who are going to be making beans for the next 5 years plus and the potential for tens of millions dollars worth of production. Trading both in one trade should take only the very, very cream of the crop.

    • bottom line says:

      Neither. Montero plus Nova/Noesi and other prospects. Keep ManBan and Betances.

      • Dick M says:

        This ^^^^^.

        Do not sleep on Betances. This site gets all hung up on his walks when the fact is he’s pretty much un-hittable and leads the league in ERA. Montero, Nova, and Warren. No more than that.

  15. bxbombers says:

    Can anyone tell me what Tex’s average is with RISP?

  16. duzzi23 says:

    I would like to see what montero betances etc can do for US first. Why cant they give them a shot to contribute at the big league level before trading them. What’s the point of building a good farm system to empty it on one guy.

    • Mister Delaware says:

      To answer your last question, they’re not going to “empty it on one guy” just because Colorado asked for our 3 top prospects and, yes, that sort of is the purpose if you’re the Yankees. With our payroll, we don’t need / can’t afford to audition 10 rookies to see which 3 will stick if the flipside is trading a couple of them for a much better bet to contribute.

  17. bonestock94 says:

    All I know is that it’s gonna be a very long 2 weeks until the deadline.

  18. Filppula51 says:

    Jesus it would be tough to let go of banuelos I think nova is going to be a damn good pitcher as well ubaldo is good but the asking price is steep hes no doc halladay

  19. Skip says:

    I don’t really have an opinion on whether or not we trade for Ubaldo. But I will say that he didn’t really blossom into a superstar until the last 3 years or so, last year especially. His numbers in the minors were very bleh. For example, his AA season at age 22, he had 4.9 BB/9 and 10.6 K/9, good for a 2.15 K/BB (which was his best AA/AAA mark by far). Betances at his age 23 season in AA is 4.8 BB/9, 10.2 K/9 and 2.15 K/BB.

    Numbers don’t tell the whole story, obviously. Jimenez is a superstar who blossomed into one from good but not great numbers. He’s clearly established in the majors. Betances is still the unknown, but has the chance to be the same development-wise.

    In a toss-up between keeping Banuelos or Betances, I might actually keep Dellin. More injury history but he’s got a higher ceiling and will maintain his velocity better than Manny. Of course I’d love to see both in pinstripes, but that’s just my opinion.

  20. Gonzo says:

    About a year ago, I was getting hammered for saying Montero might help the Yankees best by being traded. I got mauled. Now everyone is willing to deal him. Interesting how things change.

    Not as many Montero for Felix/Tulo/Hanley only calls. Some were for straight up too.

    • Pasqua says:

      I remember that most people seemed pretty willing to say goodbye to Montero when the Lee deal was about to go down one year ago. So, the commentariat’s acceptance of sending Jesus packing isn’t an overnight transformation.

    • danimal says:

      That’s the part I really don’t get. Let’s say we do trade for Ubaldo.

      We’d be giving away a huge package of prospects. A much larger package than the one that would have landed Greinke, Cliff Lee last year at the deadline, and several other pitchers. What’s the deal?

      It’s like during the off-season we didn’t want to do away with all our prized prospects, at the cost of signing retread starters.

      Those starters have been brilliant, and we’ve got a good staff. What changed? I’m with you on this one.

  21. AC says:

    Buster compares this guy to Burnett. Very off n on. I’d feel better trading those guys for King Felix. I have reservations about trading 3 top guys for him. I think Romine will surpass Montero overall anyway.

  22. AC says:

    Buster compares this guy to Burnett. Very off n on. I’d feel better trading those guys for King Felix. I have reservations about trading 3 top guys for him.

    • Gonzo says:

      I think everyone would rather trade for the better pitcher in F-Her, but it takes two to tango.

    • Mike Axisa says:

      I’d love to know what basis was used for that comparison. Ubaldo is…

      Seven years younger
      Makes substantially less money
      Doesn’t have anything near the injury history
      Isn’t just a two-pitch pitcher

      • bexarama says:

        But sometimes he has good starts and sometimes he has bad starts so he must be like Burnett don’t you see.

      • Tim says:

        It’s obvious. The basis for Buster’s comparison is his general disdain for the Yankees. A trade to any other team, and he would wax rhapsodically about how Jimenez is a superstar front of the rotation ace. A trade to the Yankees, and he’s Burnett.

        Actually, I wouldn’t be surprised if Buster meant Sean Burnett.

      • David, Jr. says:

        It is a weird comparison. Something bouncing around in his head. No basis at all. Nobody could come up with that.

      • CP says:

        I would assume the comparison is Ubaldo now to AJ 6 years ago. When he was becoming a free agent and had a FIP of less than 3.20 in three of the four previous seasons (and had TJS in the fourth). Ubaldo has had one season with a FIP that low.

    • Jerome S. says:

      You forgot the part about Olney tripping balls.

  23. Soam says:

    Ubaldo is an ace only in his false reputation. I’ve come to expect better from RAB writers.

  24. LarryM.,Fl. says:

    The Yankee Mission Statement to win every year. Places the Yankee front office in the position to improve through trade or FA signings. Draft choices are developed to be traded in attempt to get the needed pieces for another championship. As a Yankee fan there is limited opportunity to witness the chore four legacy but a playoff run every year which is appealing as opposed to the the KC Royals and Pittsburgh Pirates teams and their fan base watching the home grown talent. Also if you finish on top of the heap every year the draft choices are on the bottom of the pile every year. Pick your poison.

  25. Gonzo says:

    I feel like Nova is the kind of guy you have to add to get the deal done. He might be the best 6th SP the Yanks have, but other pitchers have shown that they might be a better option next year (maybe sooner).

    I think RAB had a post about the Yanks’ riches in back-end rotation prospects. I guess that makes a back-end guy (at least now he is) more expendable IMO.

  26. Pasqua says:

    I will watch this unfold with one thought: the trades Cashman makes usually look good as soon as their made. In other words, I find myself saying, “That’s all he gave up?” more often than, “I can’t believe how much he gave up!” In the long run, not every trade has worked, but I trust the guy to come up with something fair and not get fleeced.

    • Pasqua says:

      “They’re,” not “their.” English teacher. Oof.

    • Mike HC says:

      I can see having that reaction for the Javy trade at the time, but I didn’t really have that reaction for the Grandy trade. I thought giving up Austin Jackson and Ian Kennedy was definitely a legitimate prospect package.

      Both of those were at the time reactions, no hindsight for how the trades ended up working out.

      • Pasqua says:

        Yeah, I’m not saying the trades are lopsided, just that Cashman never seems to go overboard (at least in the initial analysis) in terms of what he gives up. He makes fair-to-Yankee-friendly deals, I would say.

        • Mike HC says:

          I’m with you. There has yet to be a player where he is willing to really push the envelope to trade for. It seems like the Rockies want Cashman to do that for Ubaldo, but I don’t think Cashman will. Cashman might be dead serious when he says you are not getting Montero plus a top pitching prospect. Whether Nova should be in that “top pitching prospect” group I guess is arguable.

          • boogie down says:

            I agree with others’ assertion that Nova’s inclusion in the “untouchable” group is merely a negotiating ploy. At present, Nova does have more value to the Yanks because of the insurance he can provide for the rotation. Long-term, however, he certainly does not outweigh Betances, let alone Banuelos, in terms of potential value.

            Should Nova be added to the offer, if and when one is made, it would be made to look like a concession, potentially lessening the number of high-impact prospects that need to be included to consummate the deal.

            If it’s true that the Rox want a high-upside bat, high-upside arm, and 2 ML-ready players, couldn’t the following constitute a sufficient package?

            Montero: high-upside, bat, ML-ready
            Betances: high-upside arm, soon(ish) to be ML-ready
            Nova: ML-ready

            I’m sure another prospect would have to be added, but those three could certainly form the bulk of a legitimate deal for Ubaldo. At least, that’s what I hope.

    • CP says:

      I think the only deal I can remember that goes against this is the Granderson deal. Not that it was a bad deal, but that it didn’t look like a clear Cashman win at the time of the deal.

  27. Hester Prynne says:

    We need a top flight starter. Cashman didn’t get it done last year and needs to close the deal this year doing whatever it takes to make it happen. Lee was the decider in last year’s ALCS. With CC-Lee-Pettitte-Hughes last year nobody beats us in the postseason.

    • Greg says:

      To be fair to Cashman, the Mariners were only using us to get Smoak.

      • Hester Prynne says:

        Then he should have offered more. As was emphasized on Sunday, when George wanted David Cone he got David Cone. They didn’t want to give up young talent and the young talent turned into nothing. Cone flourished as a Yankee.

        • boogie down says:

          Right, but, as was also emphasized on Sunday, at the time, the young talent was legitimate. It wasn’t as if they were knowingly giving up nothing to acquire Cone. Furthermore, just because prospects didn’t pan out before doesn’t mean their cases should be used in evaluating current prospects’ trade-worthiness and potential for succeeding in the majors.

          Colorado’s GM has mentioned that it’ll require a Herschel Walker-type deal in order to acquire Ubaldo. If he is sincere and isn’t just saying that to drive up the price, I’d much rather Cash sat this one out and acquired a pitcher at a more reasonable, more equitable price.

    • David, Jr. says:

      True, but it was a rental, and if you give too much and then he doesn’t sign you really get your nuts cut off. This one is different.

    • Jim S says:

      Just imagine the backlash if we’d gotten Lee, still lost, and he went to Philly. So long Montero/Betances, no Ubaldo hope, etc.

      Although maybe then we wouldn’t have the King Felix nonsense, so it could have been a net gain.

  28. Reggie C. says:

    If the fourth player in the Montero, Betances, nova package were Adam warren, i would still be cool with it.

    Not fun realizing Brackman’s regression is biting the Yanks org.

    • Pasqua says:

      I sense that the bloom has been off of the Brackman rose for a while now. I’m not sure he would have been a huge difference maker, trade-wise, even last year, when he rebounded.

  29. Mike HC says:

    Considering the Reds were the first team mentioned as having interest in Ubaldo, does anybody know the level of prospects they have to offer, and how they compare to the Yanks?

    As well as negotiating against what the Rockies want, you also have to take into account how other teams prospective offers will compare.

  30. Greg says:

    I would say to Colorado that they can have Montero and one of the B’s but pick two others. This includes Nunez and Pena. Ban Nova and the other B from the discussion. Also let them add Ty Wigginton. Nunez may have a slightly better bat, but the defensive difference will make up for that.

  31. Jorge says:

    Absolutely no way. Wait for these kids to develop. The team has two potential studs in Banuelos and Betances. There’s no reason to gut the farm here, not for Jimenez, not for anyone. I’d rather miss the playoffs this season.

    • David, Jr. says:

      Don’t necessarily agree. However, at least 85% to make the playoffs this year anyway, which illustrates that the Yankees are in a great position.

    • Jerome S. says:

      That last line was batshit insane.

      • Jorge says:

        Why, because the team has to guarantee you that they’ll make the playoffs every year? What would it be like to trade places with a die-hard Pirates fan for a year?

        I’d actually do Montero as centerpiece of deal for Jimenez, but only because the Yankees seem not to mind playing Russell Martin and his .220 average over him every day. Betances AND Banuelos have to be off the table. These guys feel too close to be real contributors, to me, to give up.

        Montero/Nova or Noesi/Nunez/lesser prospect. That’s the absolute most I’d do.

    • bexarama says:

      It’s not like Ubaldo is some quick fix or just a rental, though.

  32. Gonzo says:

    Fun with #’s. Now of course there are age differences and all that, but this is just fun.

    Ubaldo tRA+:
    ’08 120
    ’09 132
    ’10 127

    King Felix tRA+:
    ’08 111
    ’09 136
    ’10 128

    Dan Haren tRA+:
    ’08 133
    ’09 129
    ’10 109

    • Greg says:

      I would watch the Angels closely for Haren because it appears the Rangers are taking control of that division.

  33. Greg says:

    The thing about Jimenez is that he’s only 28. He still has room to grow.

  34. Monteroisdinero says:

    If by some strange happenstance Montero goes on a tear the next week or two as he did in the second half last year- still trade him?- with Martin and Cervelli as our catchers of the next few years?

    Also, what do the Rockies need on offense? I don’t know the team that well other than Tulo, Cargo and an aging Helton and Giambi.

    • Greg says:

      Other than that, their offense is prety pedestrian.

    • David, Jr. says:

      I wouldn’t discount Romine as one of our catchers in the next few years.

    • CS Yankee says:

      Rox always need a 2B, 3B, SP & MRP.

      I’m high on Jesus & the two AA B’s and trading all three for one Ace is a bit much as we’ll need to address the 1 & 2 positions in the near future.

      No one has said anything about other pieces that could possibly work…like Garcia, Hughes, or others. Garcia has done well, is a solid #3/4 and would likely do well in the West…if Hughes and one of the “3″ could get it done, I think that would be good as well.

      My thoughts;
      1) Hughes & choice of any prospect.
      2) Garcia & choice of any two prospects.
      3) Jesus, choice of a “B”, and choice of Noesi/Phelps/Warren

    • danimal says:

      So will you be looking for a new handle if Montero becomes wampum for Ubaldo?

    • MannyGeee says:

      the answer is, if montero goes on a tear over the next two weeks we still trade him but keep Nova and send a Warren/Phelps type. unfortunately, to get something you need to give something. I think we just hate the thought of trading the next big thing for somewhat more of a sure thing.

  35. jsbrendog says:

    so now we low ball them and say jesus and nova and laird.

  36. bonestock94 says:

    I just realized that a reason I’m into this trade is because I doubt the Yankees ability to develop starting pitching. Maybe I’m reading too deeply into recent events.

  37. Accent Shallow says:

    I think the Yankees would really regret moving Montero, regardless of return.

    Of course, Keith Law could be right, and he could be another Andy Marte or something.

  38. Bill says:

    If he’s available and we don’t have to include all of our top 3 you almost have to do it. Jimenez is a young, cheap, premier starter in this league. He’s exactly what the Yankees are missing when comparing with other championship caliber teams.

    Hopefully the Yankees can get something done and in the process hold onto as much of their top talent as possible. I’m totally fine with dealing as much as needed from the 2nd and 3rd tier prospect groups and like I said if you have to include two of Montero, ManBan, Betances (which you likely would) I’d still be in.

  39. ItWillNeverHappen says:

    How about we offer the farm, I’m talking about Montero, Man-Ban, Betances, Nova and add Swisher, and some lower level high ceiling prospects and ask for Ubaldo, Wiggington, and Car-Go. Ace pitcher plus elite outfielder and back up for a-rod injury.. but like my name ItWillNeverHappen

  40. Mister D says:

    My understanding is that Colorado could use a CF. What if we added Gardner to a package of Montero, Betances and Warren (or Phelps or Noesi)? They also seem willing to include Wiggington, but he’s an expensive replacement player. Taking his $6m salary for the next two seasons is doing more for the Rockies than for us IMO.

    • Mike HC says:

      No way is Gardner going anywhere.

    • Steve O. says:

      Trading Gardner opens a larger hole than the one it fills.

      A package of Montero, Betances, and Warren should be the meat of the deal. A couple throw ins, Jiminez is on the Yankees. You don’t need to add in one of the Yankees best bargains to make the trade.

    • FIPster Doofus says:

      Colorado can take the prospects and like it. Gardner has been one of the best players in the AL the past season and a half; he doesn’t need to be thrown into a trade.

    • David, Jr. says:

      Don’t even think about that. I have him third for Yankee MVP behind CC and Granderson. The numbers have him as the best fielder in the league.

      • FIPster Doofus says:

        By far the best fielder in the league, an elite base runner, and a terrific offensive player for a low cost.

        • Cris Pengiuci says:

          He’s got elite speed, but I don’t think he’s got the instincts to be considered an elite baserunner yet. Still, I agree that he should not be included. Way too much value to the Yankees.

  41. Ty says:

    Look… This will go just as any other major deal, hit or miss. If we make the deal and Ubaldo cant handle the AL east, or has been working too hard and starts to have arm issues now, meanwhile montero is hitting .330 with 35hr’s and betances has an 18 win season, NY will be screaming for cashmans head!

    On the other hand, if the yanks hold their chips, montero never has a real role with them due to his defense, betances never finds the zone, and banuelos gets injured, meanwhile Ubaldo was traded to/signs with an AL team and has multiple cy young campaigns NY will again be up in arms!

    It is so hit or miss with trading NL pitchers for top prospects. i would personally pull the trigger if we could hold nova and betances, but even that may be a longshot.

    • Steve O. says:

      I understand where you’re coming from.

      This is why you don’t surrender all of your “chips” to acquire one player. You send off a few, keep a few.

      If a team wants all the aforementioned chips, then that is the deal breaker. Worrying about whether NY will be up in arms, is not the deal breaker.

      • Ty says:

        Oh of course, im just saying that hindsight is the only way to judge a deal, so with that many question marks in the rotation, you have to make the move if possible to help NOW and not worry about the future as much because who knows who wins this trade until 2-3 years from now.

  42. Ty says:

    I meant Nova and Banuelos

  43. ColoYank says:

    Interesting local take on the rumor. Nothing new, except quote from O’Dowd (paraphrasing): “On Twitter, it’s always better to be first than right.”

    http://www.denverpost.com/krieger/ci_18497965

  44. JobaWockeeZ says:

    Romine, Sanchez, Betances, Nova, throw in. I’d much rather do that.

    • Steve O. says:

      Sanchez has more value to the Yankees than as a trade chip.

      I’d leave out Sanchez, and throw in someone who had more present value.

      One of Montero/Betances/Banuelos, two of Warren/Noesi/Phelps/Nova/Laird, and two more lower level guys. If they decline, I say move on.

      • JobaWockeeZ says:

        Sanchez is basically a skinnier Montero when Montero was his age. We have two of them but I prefer the one closer to the bigs. If Cash can keep Montero and Banuelos, the Rox can get any prospect they want. Betances, Romine, JR Murphy, Heathcott, Nova. Those guys are more easily replaceable.

        You get Betances’ future and a possible future catcher in Montero/Sanchez. Nova’s expendable and Grandy ain’t old that Heathcott is a must for the future. Still hurts but Cash should try keeping those two while going nearly all in for Ubaldo.

        • If I’m Dan O’Dowd, there is literally no way in fucking hell I trade Ubaldo Jimenez to the Yankees without getting back either Montero or Banuelos.

          Both of them need to be in the deal for me to feel comfortable. At least one of them HAS to be in the deal or I’m hanging up and never calling back.

          • JobaWockeeZ says:

            Yeah agreed. Which is why I’m not in complete favor of the trade. I’d drive Montero and ManBan myself if a 33 years old Felix Hernandez was available but Ubaldo isn’t in that territory yet.

  45. Prospect Huggers Unite says:

    Feeling a little too much value for name-recognition here. Jiminez got famous for starting out 13-0 last year (or whatever, I don’t want to confirm that), and I’m not sure he’s any better than other players that might shake free by July 31. Well, he’s better than most, but by that much? The Marlins have a pair, W-Rod in Houston, Bedard in Seattle, and I don’t know that Edwin Jackson wouldn’t even stack up that badly.

    If you really want to expand the list, you can look at the Cubs’ pair of Dempster and Lilly, or Kuroda in LA. Maybe I am completely wrong, but I would not want to pay for a famous won-loss record from over a year ago.

    • FIPster Doofus says:

      You’re not paying for win-loss record. You’re paying for an in-his-prime, cost-controlled pitcher with the 10th-best fWAR at his position going back to 2008. To use one name you listed as an example, FanGraphs indicates Jimenez has been worth 7.5 more wins than Wandy since ’08.

      • JobaWockeeZ says:

        Meh his FIP makes him that valuable but that’s in the NL West. While I believe the transfer from the NL and AL is beyond extremely overrated there is a difference.

        His FIP is better than most metrics that take out the NL and AL difference. He’s still very good but it’s not clear cut that his performance warrants a Montero/Banuelos/Betances package.

  46. Thomas says:

    For Jimenez I’ve been thinking Montero, Nova, Betances, and Nunez.

    • David, Jr. says:

      I don’t think that they want to trade Nuney. Aging infielders make him a decent fit on the team.

      • Thomas says:

        Yeah, I was thinking that, especially after they refused to put him in the Lee deal. However, that would be my ideal offer.

  47. Adam says:

    Thoughts on if you do it…one of the B’s, Nova, Nunie and Romine?

  48. AaronGuielWithASmile says:

    Has anybody stopped to consider why the Rockies are even thinking about trading Jimenez?

    This guy is a young ace (or at least an exceptional #2) who is signed to a team friendly contract for the next 3 years. Plus the Rockies play in a weak division, and although they’ve underperformed this season I see no reason why they shouldn’t be contending for the duration of Ubaldo’s contract.

    What do they see in him that makes them willing to give him up for prospects?

    • MannyGeee says:

      selling high when there are a shit ton of teams in need of pitching. get a kings ransom while the gettin’s good, I would venture

    • bexarama says:

      I don’t think they’re sooooo eager to flip him but they know it’s not the best market for starting pitching, and there’s basically no aces out there that are really available. If they can get someone to gut their farm system or give them more legit ML talent, I guess it makes sense.

    • They’re not moving him for prospects, they’re only moving him for “Holy Fuckballs, These Prospects Are AMAZING!” prospects.

      You know, guys like Jesus Montero (who has been compared to Frank Thomas) and one future ace prospect or two (like, say, Banuelos and Betances, both of whom are top-40 guys in the minors).

      You’re right, they’re not moving Ubaldo for nothing, but if someone makes them an “Are these guys seriously going to give me all of that?!?!” offer, like the Haren deal or the Tex deal, of course they’d do it.

    • JobaWockeeZ says:

      It’s the same way Justin Upton is available or how Jack Z was ‘listening’ to offers of Felix. Unless it’s a clear overpay they won’t move him.

      Cash isn’t the type to panic and overpay but we’ll see.

  49. MannyGeee says:

    Any way to keep Banuelos AND Nova in this scenario? I hate to sell on Nova (especially where young pitching is a position of need for the Yankees) when you kinda need him to compete this season.

    Easier to sell on Betances when you dont know what he’s gonna be. his only experience pitching to ML level guys came this past March. But you have a read on what kind of pitcher Nova is going to become.

    • Adam says:

      You have to give up in order to get…and the point if this trade were a possibility is getting a successful, young pitcher. Nova (or really one single piece) doesn’t hold up the deal, but rather the composite of players that becomes too much.

    • YankeesJunkie says:

      I don’t believe Nova is suited for the American League East to be anymore than a competent #4/#5 which is still pretty good. While I love the ground outs he is able to generate fact of the matter is he is not a swing and miss guy and K/BB ratio is not impressive. If Nova ends up being the piece that the Yankees need to give to get Ubaldo then I am in and I think it will be beneficial for both teams as Nova will perform much better against a weaker hitting NL and especially the NL West. While Ubaldo has his flaws he has been a very good pitcher the last three years and even better away from Coors. While part of that may be due the spacious parks and anemic offenses the other reason has to be because Coors is still a hitters paradise. In addition, away from Coors as a starter he has accumulated nearly 9 K/9 while at home he is closer to 7.25 K/9. While Ubaldo is not the perfect pitcher by any means he fits in really nicely right behind CC something that this Yankee team has been missing this year.

  50. Will (the other one) says:

    This feels like last summer all over again. Dan O’Dowd will string us along for a week and a half to drive up the asking price, then flip Ubaldo to the Royals for his true prize target: Melky Cabrera.

  51. nycsportzfan says:

    congrats to Dante Bichette Jr on hitting his first HR as a Yank Minor leaguer today…

  52. Jimmy McNulty says:

    Meh, it’s a reasonable asking price…but I don’t think Ubaldo’s the right pitcher for the team. Walks too many batters in the NL and the strike outs don’t match up with the stuff. Also, the velocity’s down and you have to wonder why Colorado’s trading him. He’s not on that short list of guys that I’d justify a trade of that package for.

  53. V says:

    If the Rockies want Banuelos more than Montero, then Banuelos+Nova+others (as opposed to Montero+Betances+others)?

    • Will (the other one) says:

      Nah. No way any deal gets done without Montero in it.

    • 28 this year says:

      I would be down with keeping Montero and Betances and trading Banuelos. Its kinda like the Hughes or Kennedy package debates we had with Santana. Take the higher prospect and get the lower secondary pieces. Perhaps offer two packages, one headlined with Montero and Betances adn the other healined with Banuelos and Nova. I would be ok with that deal.

      Plus, we got to keep in mind that even if the prospects work out for the Rox, thats not bad as long as Ubaldo works here. Both teams winning is always good for future negotiations with the Rox and other teams.

  54. Chip says:

    I propose a three team blockbuster with the Pirates

    Yankees get:
    Ubaldo
    Colton Cain

    Pirates get:
    Montero (they want a big bat and he would be the center of their offense for years to come)
    Warren

    Rockies get:
    Tony Sanchez
    Tallion
    Allie
    Betences

    Note: Of course this wouldn’t ever happen but I would like to know who is being shorted here? I guess the Rockies don’t get that one guy (I don’t think Tony Sanchez is the centerpiece) but I think the Yankees and Pirates would sign up for that trade even though there would be nothing left of the Pirates farm system.

  55. David, Jr. says:

    What about this? Hughes as the centerpiece, if it allows them to keep both Banuelos and Betances?

    • Steve O. says:

      Hughes doesn’t have enough team control left. One of Banuelos/Betances/Montero HAS to be included. The Yankees could theoretically include a ML part, but they’re contending, so the point is to not lose anything from the ML team.

  56. Ted Nelson says:

    Good analysis.

  57. To the people harping on the AL East thing: you realize that Yanks pitchers don’t face the Yanks offense, right? Baltimore and TB are below average, and Toronto is good but nowhere near great.

    • But Carl Pavano and Javy Vazquez—who were totally and completely healthy and in peak physical condition while in pinstripes—didn’t pitch as well for the Yankees as they did for the Marlins/Braves/Expos.

      So, clearly, the AL East turns good pitchers into shitty ones, and we shouldn’t acquire pitchers from the NL.

      Q.E.D.

    • bexarama says:

      Also, Ubaldo did a pretty good job against the Yankee offense. One game and all.

    • Tags says:

      This was in the NY Times today about where Jimenez pitches: in four starts pitching at AT&T Park (San Francisco), PETCO Park (San Diego), Nationals Park and Dodger Stadium, spacious homes of the four lowest-scoring teams in the N.L., Jimenez is 2-1 with a 1.20 earned run average. In 14 starts pitching everywhere else, including at hitter-friendly Coors Field, Jimenez is 3-7 with a 5.15 E.R.A.

      • That’s just this year, though, which is why I used his 2009-2011 numbers. The larger the sample the better. I mean, we could further chop up his small sample of 2011 and say that since June 1 he has a 2.56 ERA, including 4 at home and 5 on the road, one of which was at Yankee Stadium.

      • Dicka24 says:

        Yuck…

        Coors Field certainly makes it tougher on pitchers, although not as much as years passed, since they’ve been using the humador. However, the flip to that is illustrated by Tags post. The NL West sucks. Not only are the teams offensively challenged, but 3 of the road parks (SD, SF, and LAD) are built for pitchers. I like Ubaldo but I have some serious concerns about what he’ll be like in the AL East.

  58. Montero
    Nova
    Noesi
    Warren/Mitchell
    Kontos/Whelan/Pendleton

    Yankees get Jimenez

  59. UnNamed Yankee Source says:

    Wanna try a blockbuster…..How about this?

    To NYY:
    Jimenez
    Choate
    Wigginton
    Nolasco
    - They get the 2 staters, a part time 3B, and a lefty reliever.

    To CO:
    Montero
    Brackman
    Nova
    - They replace Ubaldo with Nova and a Killer B. And get that Montero kid.

    To FLA:
    AROD
    Mitre
    - They wanted to spend some money and get a gate attraction….well it does not get any bigger than bringing ARod home to Miami!

    Whatcha think?

  60. theyankeewarrior says:

    I agree with the Montero/Betences starting point.

    Add two of Phelps/Warren/Noesi/Nova and we have a nice little deal.

    Anything more and it’s a stretch.

    At least we’re being entertained.

    • bottom line says:

      Why stop there? Give them CC, Cano, Gardner and our rights to the next five drafts too.

      • Now you’re just being silly… You can’t trade draft picks in baseball!

        Seriously though, his proposed deal isn’t bad.

      • theyankeewarrior says:

        Why stop there?

        Because we would be acquiring a legitimate, proven, top-of-the-rotation starter under team control for 2.5 years (three playoff runs) at a below-market rate WITHOUT surrendering Manny Banuelos.

        And that’s good for business.

        What do you propose? Montero, DJ Mitchell, Pena and Golson?

  61. Favrest says:

    Um, 2 aces? Please explain your logic

  62. cranky says:

    Trading away Montero for a pitcher makes sense.
    Trading away Banuelos or Betances for a pitcher makes no sense.
    As for Ubaldo Jimenez, I’ve yet to hear anyone explain why the Rockies would trade him. He’s a top young pitcher at a reasonable salary for another few years. What’s the motivation?
    Here’s another thing: Jimenez hasn’t been all that great this season. Better recently, but still….It’s not as if he’s been pitching to a 1.88 ERA. IVAN NOVA’S NUMBERS HAVE BEEN JUST AS GOOD.

    • Ted Nelson says:

      “As for Ubaldo Jimenez, I’ve yet to hear anyone explain why the Rockies would trade him. He’s a top young pitcher at a reasonable salary for another few years. What’s the motivation?”

      Getting a really great return would be the primary motivation. There have been plenty of small-ish market teams who do as well or better after trading super-stars. If they can get 2 very good prospects plus another contributor in exchange for 1 very good player, that could work out for the Rockies.

      All indications are that they’re not looking to dump him, but exploring his trade value.

      “IVAN NOVA’S NUMBERS HAVE BEEN JUST AS GOOD.”

      Which numbers?

      • “Getting a really great return would be the primary motivation. There have been plenty of small-ish market teams who do as well or better after trading super-stars.”

        We only have to look as far as Matt Holliday from the same club to see how it can work out nicely.

        “IVAN NOVA’S NUMBERS HAVE BEEN JUST AS GOOD.”

        Which numbers?

        WINS!!! Right?!

      • Tags says:

        Ted,

        How about these numbers: in four starts pitching at AT&T Park (San Francisco), PETCO Park (San Diego), Nationals Park and Dodger Stadium, spacious homes of the four lowest-scoring teams in the N.L., Jimenez is 2-1 with a 1.20 earned run average. In 14 starts pitching everywhere else, including at hitter-friendly Coors Field, Jimenez is 3-7 with a 5.15 E.R.A.

        • Ted Nelson says:

          Coors Field is still the most hitter friendly park in baseball even with the humidor… looking at his numbers at Coors is as extreme as looking at his numbers in Petco. His numbers are expected to be worse at Coors, that’s not a surprise of a knock.

          The one-year park adjustment for Coors on Baseball-Reference is 124. For YS3 it’s 100. For Fenway 104. For the Trop it’s 90. Toronto is 105 and Camden 98. Coors is still REALLY hitter friendly.

          • Tags says:

            It doesn’t say all 14 were at Coors Field.

            • Ted Nelson says:

              You’d expect roughly 1/2 his games to be at Coors Field, since 1/2 the Rockies games are at Coors. You can check out his home/road splits on baseball-reference or fangraphs.

    • AaronGuielWithASmile says:

      Quite simply:

      http://www.baseball-reference......v01.shtmlf

      vs

      http://www.baseball-reference......ub01.shtml

      There’s really no reasonable way to conclude that Nova has been just as good as Jimenez.

    • David, Jr. says:

      A reason that he is being shopped may be because there doesn’t seem to be much market for pitchers at this deadline, so they might be able to gouge out a premium return.

  63. Jerome S. says:

    The RABis just don’t want to lose Banuelos because they don’t want to sheepishly take down the Prospect Watch ;)

  64. Krull says:

    For some reason when I think Ubaldo Jimenez going to the Yankees I keep envisioning Javy Vazquez round 1…

  65. Fin says:

    After reading all the comments it seems the consensus is to keep Manban. Trade the farm if you must but keep Manban. I Doubt that the Rockies are trading Ubaldo to the Yankees without getting Manban and Montero. The Rockies are under no pressure to trade Ubaldo, they are throwing his name out there and seeing if they get blown away by on offer. I could see them being blown away by Montero, Manban, Nova, Nunez. They would get 2 major league ready hitters, a major league ready pitcher and a possible future ace. I would do this deal. The only thing you are loosing that the major league team has glaring need for is Nunez. Manban is being replaced by Ubaldo. Montero doesnt seem to be a catcher but a First basemen/DH, if he were a catcher he would be on the team now. The Yankees have a seemingly endless supply of number 4 starters in the pipeline to replace Nova. In the end if all those players pan out for the Rockies they may win the trade but the Yankees may win a world series or 2.

  66. JG233 says:

    Ubaldo is living off one incredible half season…i wouldnt break the bank for him…he isnt King Felix

    • Ted Nelson says:

      He’s the 9th best pitcher in baseball since the start of 2008, 2009, and 2010 in terms of FIP. Yes he had a couple of months where BABIP luck led to a ridiculously low ERA, but he’s consistently been one of the better pitchers in MLB for 3.5 years now.

    • Fin says:

      This is getting almost as old as the trade for Felix cries. Just scroll up and read the 100 posts with his stats. Peoplel on the east coast may not have known who Ubaldo was before his 13-0 start but people in the west did. The big question with Ubaldo was always how good he could be. Alot of people thought he didnt have the mentality to be a true ace, that he would always be an outstanding number 2, though his stuff translated to true ace status. If he is just an outstanding number 2 of the Yankees…sign me up.

      • CS Yankee says:

        I’ve seen Ubaldo pitch in AAA, as well as, in the majors. He is unbelievable. The tag on him in the minors was if he could ever control the 3-2 count walks, he would have it made.

        Roughly;
        1) 50% of his games are at home (17-18 starts)
        2) 25% of his games are at SD, LA & SF (8-9 starts)

        Don’t let the 25% of those road games fool you into that he has it easy. The Rox offense, in general, sucks on the road, and if your going against the Freak or Clay (to name only a few) at their stadium that’s a tall order to overcome. He has done real well in those games however.

        I feel he is a top 10 pitcher in baseball…I get that some can say he is “only” top 15, whoever says he is not a Top 15 starting pitcher (over the last 2-1/2 years…as that is a good sample size) is either crazy, biased or stupid.

        If we see him in NYY pinstripes, it should be great…maybe not Halladay great, but beantown complaining great.

  67. Adam LaRocca says:

    I know Jimenez is amazing and he has excellent potential, and so on, but I really want the Yankees to keep their prospects. Especially, their pitching ones. I think I am OK with Montero being sold, since we have a lot more catching prospects, such as, Sanchez and Romine. So if the Yankees can be patient and keep away from trading their pitching prospects somehow, then I will be fine with Jimenez.

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