Open Thread: Angel Berroa

Yankees did not inquire on Darren Oliver
Bernie Williams and the Hall of Fame
(Photo by Jim Rogash/Getty Images)

Do you remember just how bad Angel Berroa was with the Yankees? They signed him on this date three years ago, sent him to Triple-A to start the season while Ramiro Pena got a chance to backup Cody Ransom at third, who was filling in for Alex Rodriguez while he got his hip repaired. Berroa was called up after Ransom blew out his quad, then reached base a whopping seven times in 31 plate appearances. Three singles, three walks, one double for a .174 OBP and a .164 ISO. That’s a -8 OPS+ and a -16 wRC+. Thankfully, he was jettisoned once Ransom got healthy in late-June.

I know most people think Berroa stole the 2003 Rookie of the Year Award from Hideki Matsui, but that’s not really the case. Godzilla hit .287/.353/.435 with 16 homers as an average (if not a touch below) fielding left fielder, but Berroa hit .287/.338/.451 with 17 homers as an average fielding shortstop. The second player is more valuable, and it’s not particularly close. Heck, you can make a case that Jody Gerut was a better RoY candidate than Matsui since he hit .279/.336/.494 with 22 homers and solid glovework in all three outfield spots.

That said, we know RoY awards do not guarantee future success, and the only player who got AL RoY votes that year and has gone on to have a better career than Matsui is Mark Teixeira. He hit .259/.331/.480 with 26 homers and finished fifth in the voting.

* * *

Here’s your open thread for the night. All five hockey and basketball locals are in action, but Time Warner customers are still MSG-less because of the Dolans. I sure hope this gets resolved soon. Anyway, you folks know what to do, so go nuts.

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Yankees did not inquire on Darren Oliver
Bernie Williams and the Hall of Fame
  • Freddy Garcia’s 86 mph Heat

    sooo…Anthony Rizzo is re acquired by Theo. All he needs to do now is find a way to get Casey Kelly back and then he can bring AGon to Chicago!

    • MannyGeee

      #BoyGenius

  • mustang

    How does Eli Manning not even get a vote in the Associated Press All-Pro team?

    I mean seriously the guy is so unrated by everyone here to him making a statement in playoffs.

    GO ELI!!!

    • Pat D

      Because he’s not better than Brees, Brady or Rodgers.

      • mustang

        Ok but not 1 Vote.

        The guy has one above average WR, an ok TE when he is on the field, and no running game. Naming the QB that has the same or less then him to work with that took his team to the playoffs.

        • mustang

          Name not naming.

        • Pat D

          He has 2 above average WR’s.

          And he still throws his fair share of INT’s.

          Why should he get a vote where one guys is chosen where there are 3 guys clearly better than him? Jeez, you could argue that Stafford and even Romo had better stats than Eli did this year.

          And I’m a Giants fan who feels Eli is underrated!

          • mustang

            My bad I didn’t understating the voting system I thought it worked like baseball.

            • Pat D

              No, it’s not points based as far as I know.

      • Guns of Navarone

        This. And this season he wasn’t better than Rodgers, Brees, Brady, Romo or Stafford according to Passer Rating. He’s 6th in the league in INTs. I realize he had some great 4th quarter drives and I think he’s had a good season… but he really hasn’t been great compared to his peers.

        • mustang

          If you really think that Romo is better then Eli then there no need to even go on commenting.

          Wow!!!!

          • Guns of Navarone

            I personally don’t think he is but according to passer rating he was. Romo actually had a nice season this year.

          • CMP

            Other than one fluke run In 2007 during which the Giants were carried by their defense and running game, Mannings career hasn’t been one bit better than Romo’s even though he’s been on mostly better teams in the same system with the same head coach.

            • mustang

              Really how many playoff victories has Romo taken Dallas to? How many crushing loses has Dallas had with Romo being the direct cause?

              BTW Manning was named the Most Valuable Player of Super Bowl XLII in that “one fluke run In 2007″

              • Guns of Navarone

                That Super Bowl MVP doesn’t mean much. The Giants won that Super Bowl because of their defense and specifically their pass rush; and you know it.

                • mustang

                  I will take it.

                  • mustang

                    “That Super Bowl MVP doesn’t mean much”

                    means a lot to us Giants fans….LOL

              • mustang

                Don’t get me wrong I love Romo what Giants fan wouldn’t just sit back and wait for the for the fuck up because you its coming.

                I hope Rome stay as the Dallas QB for the next 10 years.

                • mustang

                  you know its coming.

              • mustang

                And another thing the “one fluke run In 2007″

                Fluke 1- Beating Dallas in Dallas with the great Romo.

                Fluke 2- Beating Green Bay at Green with the great Brett Favre.

                Fluke3- Beating the undefeated Patriots with the great Tom Brady.

                That’s a lot of flukes!!!!

            • Jamey

              The official CMP theme song

              “Trollin…trollin….trollin on the river…aveblues”

              • Professor Longnose

                This is my all-time favorite RAB comment.

            • JobaWockeeZ

              I swear to God if you’re a Jets fan preaching about flukes…

              Seriously if you aren’t a Pats or Steelers non bandwagoning fan then no team can even talk about fluky wins.

    • MannyGeee

      Eli is a tough case… Some times he is amazing, other days you want to strangle him.

      • Mike R.

        Not really. He’s a great QB who has an occasional bad game. In the next few years he surpasses Simms/Tittle/Tarkenton as the all time greatest Giants QB. Tittle was more of a 49er (but with the best season BY FAR) and Simms had about 6 or 7 good years, mostly after 30 years of age. Tarkenton had very little support, but again, he played for the Giants for only 5 years.

        Then you have Connely, but he’s hard to compare.

        • Mike R.

          But seriously, a lot of peoples’ perception of Manning is extremely outdated.

          Simms had a lot of critics too and he is absolutely revered, so I think if Manning has another few great years as he reaches his mid-thirties he’ll be loved even more.

        • Guns of Navarone

          I’m sorry, but you’ve got to be kidding with the “great QB” stuff. This is the first season in his career he’s been in the top 10 in passer rating. The only thing he’s close to great at is throwing INTs; he’s lead the league twice in that category.

        • MannyGeee

          So how is a ‘great QB’ that has shitty games any different than a QB that some days you love and other days you want to strangle exactly?

          • Mike R.

            You’re implying that he is one of those giveth but taketh away players. That is not the case.

      • mustang

        Your right but those “strangle days” have been much less this year. Under 2 minutes game on the line the guy IS MONEY!!!!!!

        • MannyGeee

          This year sure. But by and large his body of work has been chock full of strangle days.

    • Jesse

      Because he’s simply not as good as Rodgers, Brees, Brady, or Stafford?

      I mean, look at the numbers…

      Rodgers: 343/502, 68.3%, 45 TD, 6 INT, 4643 yards, 122.5 rating
      Brees: 468/657, 71.2%, 46 TD, 14 INT, 5476 yards, 110.6 rating
      Brady: 401/611, 65.6%, 39 TD, 12 INT, 5235 yards, 105.6 rating
      Stafford: 421/663, 63.5%, 41 TD, 16 INT, 5038 yards, 97.2 rating
      Eli: 359/589, 61%, 29 TD, 16 INT, 4933 yards, 92.9 rating.

      There’s only one QB voted for the All-Pro team, and voters only choose the best QB. I don’t believe they choose a second, third, fourth, fifth, etc place finishers like they do in the baseball awards. With that said, looking at the stats, you seriously can’t sit here and tell me that Eli Manning is better than any of those QB’s I listed, let alone saying he’s the best overall. I get that he’s great in the fourth quarter, but we’re looking big picture here.

      • Mike R.

        Not denying that Eli shouldn’t get an All-Pro vote, but no QB did more with less.

        A deteriorating O-Line and no running game. Two UDFA’s turn into great targets (Cruz and Ballard).

        Football stats need conext moreso than baseball stats.

        • Mike R.

          *context

        • mustang

          BINGO!!!!!!

          Lets carry this man on our shoulders in a victory lap!!!!!

          “no QB did more with less” BECAUSE ITS WORTH REPEATING!!

        • Jesse

          In all fairness, Tom Brady did a lot with less too. Both offensive lines between the Giants and Patriots were basically the same according to the NY Life Protection index. And Brady has a worse defense than Eli.

          • mustang

            Yet the Patriots ranked 20th in rushing while the Giants were dead last. The Giants offense is Eli.

            • Jesse

              New England only had 21 yards per game more on the ground than the Giants, which is also 5 yards on the ground more than the Giants per quarter. Big deal.

              • Jamey

                21 yards more per game is a pretty big deal.

                • mustang

                  Thank you

                • Jesse

                  It’s two first downs. Quit nitpicking.

                  • Jamey

                    You realize we’re talking about actual NFL games right? Not playing 89-9 games on Madden on rookie where yes I’d agree that missing out on converting 2 1st downs would be a measly gripe.

                    • mustang

                      +1

        • Jimmy

          “Football stats need context moreso than baseball stats.”

          This is so true. That’s why you can’t take a baseball type of argument into a football discussion. INT’s are very inaccurate and depend very much on the WR involved and type of passing routes his coaches call for. A tipped pass caught for an INT or a missed route may or may not be the QB’s fault. Eli sure seems to get a lot of these type of INT’s, which hurts him in his rating. I don’t watch enough of other teams to get a feel for whether this is a problem for the other teams as well, but until football stats can weed out some of this type of error it’s hard to use them to rate players against each other.

      • ChooChoo

        How about the big picture that 2 of the quarterbacks you’ve mentioned play their home games in domes? How about the big picture that the swamp in the Meadowlands is universally accepted as one of the toughest if not the toughest place in football to throw a pass because of the swirling winds? How about the big picture that Giant receivers led the league in dropped passes this year? How about the big picture that when the receivers weren’t dropping passes, they were playing volleyball with Eli’s throws and racking up interceptions? How about the big picture that the team had the worst running game in football this year, allowing other teams to game plan solely around a Giant passing game?
        How about the big picture that you are up past your bedtime, Jesse?

        • Jesse

          Oh, nice, a bedtime joke. Very funny ChooChoo train. There’s me stooping down to your level for no apparent reason.

          Anyways, yes, just throw out the numbers, they mean nothing….

          Try getting your head out of your ass, and look at the splits…

          Home: 183/294, 62.2%, 2498 yards 14 TD, 9 INT, 92.5 rating
          Road: 176/295, 59.7%, 2435 yards, 15 TD, 7 INT, 93.5 rating.

          If the ” the swamp in the Meadowlands”, (while you unsurprisingly don’t know that the Giants play on field turf) was a big deal, he’d be much better on the road. The wind is hardly a big deal. Rodgers and Brady play in the wind as well. Quit nitpicking and being a homer, it’s beyond insane.

          And btw, I know your bedtime wise crack goes back to Brett Gardner and how I defend him, get the hell over it.

        • Jesse

          And the Giants didn’t lead the NFL in dropped passes wise guy. They had the 8th most, and btw, the Packers had more. FYI, the Browns led the league in dropped passes.

          http://stats.washingtonpost.co.....8;rank=232

          • ChooChoo

            Go have some ice cream and nod off. Dream of Brett with that .713 OPS and the great numbers he posts against lefties. Keep quoting that 14th ranked fWAR when he swings that rolled up wet newspaper.
            Ignore Domed Stadium Football and thanks for correcting me on the Met Life Playing surface–I thought it was quicksand, since I’ve only been there 100 times and thought that’s why they called it a swamp.

            • Jesse

              This is absolutely ridiculous. As they say, obvious troll is obvious, and you’re a clear troll….Are you THAT illiterate? I provided QB’s that play indoors and outdoors. Not sure if you actually watch football, or sports in general, but Tom Brady and Aaron Rodgers BOTH play outside. Do me a favor and get off the thread, watch a football game, or a sports game in general, and then comeback on here.

  • Pat D

    The problem with that year’s ROY voting is that 2 guys completely ignored the rules and didn’t vote for Matsui, saying he wasn’t a “rookie.” Funny how no one said that when Ichiro and Kaz Sasaki had won the award in prior years.

  • Rainbow Connection

    “Every time the Yanks jettison a minor leaguer an Angel get it’s wings!”

  • Plank

    Can we collectively stop caring about who the BBWAA thinks is the best player/rookie/pitcher/worthy of enshrinement in the Jane Forbes Clark Hall of Fame?

    I did it several years ago and it’s liberating.

    • Plank

      I don’t want to stifle anyone from feeling how they feel but I hate when player’s seasons are looked at in terms of how many MVP votes they would get instead of how valuable they are.

      I don’t care about Pete Abraham’s (for example) choice for MVP any more than I care about any stranger’s choice.

      • Guns of Navarone

        I totally agree. Voters are just starting to incorporate advanced statistics into their vocabulary and expanding their knowledge. And for every one voter who’s open to a discussion with advanced stats, there’s five who won’t discuss anything past wins, average, RBI, heart, and grit.

        There’s too much bias going on from hard-headed, self-aggrandizing writers for my taste.

    • Pat D

      Well, when it comes to the HOF, the BBWAA actually has a fairly pristine mark. Maybe 5 or 6 guys out of all the guys they’ve elected are questionable.

      Now compare every iteration of the Veteran’s Committee, that’s where you get most all the bad selections (but at least they finally elected Ron Santo).

      • Plank

        The bar for the HOF has never been higher than it is now. Voters can only elect 10 people and realistically unless there is a huge induction in the next few years, there will be more than 10 worthy players on the ballot meaning many worthy HOFers won’t get elected.

        There’s tons of crappy players in the HOF. Kirby Puckett says hi. You’re right that most of the crappy players were elected by the VC, though.

        Regardless of where you stand of steroids, why does the BBWAA get to make that decision? Mark McGwire had a HOF career. Ditto a lot of other guys who will get left out. Half the players from the 40s on lived on banned substances (greenies). Why the double standard? Why does Pete Abraham get to shape the debate?

        The last thing I want to do is start a steroids thread. I’m just talking about how nonsensical it is as it relates to the current HOF environment.

        • Plank

          Obviously crappy doesn’t mean crappy, but crappy in terms of other HOFers.

        • http://drawingwalks.wordpress.com/ RC

          Puckett was the man. We’re spoiled Yankee fans, and never understand what Puckett means to a franchise/city like the Twin Cities.

          • Plank

            Kirby Puckett is the example I always give when people talk about how some ball player is a good person or not. He was a media darling but after he finished playing it came out that he was a monster, or a tortured man who did terrible things.

            • Pat D

              Yea, he’d never get into the HOF if that had been known before he was eligible.

            • http://drawingwalks.wordpress.com/ RC

              When Minnesota fan travel half across the country they want see his plaque and Killebrew’s. Kirby is still the icon of the franchise, he was cornerstone of their only championships in 87 & 91. It’s the Hall of Fame (Not Hall of Greats), and Twin fans want to see their guy. Like I said it’s hard understand since we’re are Yankee fans, but Kirby is Minnesota Baseball. That counts for a lot.

              • Plank

                We are Penn State!

                • Andrew518

                  Trying to compare greenies to steroids is more than a stretch…it also ignores the fact that most of these guys were using steroids AND greenies.

  • AC

    God forbid Cashman got involved for Rizzo. Yeah no where to play him but makes Swisher tradable. We don’t have any OF guys on way. Cashman isn’t aggressive with trying to obtain a young hitter.

    • Plank

      Swisher is better than Rizzo, though. Why would you make that trade?

      • Plank

        And he’s a first baseman.

    • Guns of Navarone

      O:S

      • Pat D

        I’ve lost track of those I O:S’ed in 2011.

        Guess I’ll start clean this year.

        • http://www.mystiqueandaura.com/ JMK

          O:S, an RAB oldie.

    • candyforstalin

      this.

    • Steve (different one)

      What? What would Cashman do with Rizzo? Who knows if Rizzo is even any good yet? Where would he play?

      What a wierd thing to bitch about.

  • Guns of Navarone

    It’s funny, but I WILL see Underworld: Awakening only to see Kate Beckinsale in 3D. If there’s a more beautiful woman… I haven’t seen her.

    http://www.themagazinetime.com.....hotos.html

    • Pat D

      Liz Taylor in her prime, I always thought was the most beautiful actress.

      • Guns of Navarone

        Very tough to compare different generations.

        • Pat D

          Indeed.

      • Jimmy

        Grace Kelly in “Rear Window”.

    • Plank

      The Olsen twins before they got old.

      • Pat D

        Apparently their younger sister isn’t bad.

      • Guns of Navarone

        The Olsen twins before they got old. anorexic.

        #inappropriate

    • http://www.bronxbombersreport.com Craig Maduro

      Sofia Vergara.

      • Guns of Navarone

        Stop it.

      • Rainbow Connection

        I’d say yes if she could just not make a really ugly face every three seconds. Seriously, did someone tell her that’s funny or something? Enough is enough.

  • ChooChoo

    The wind is a big deal there. Ever hear Phil Simms talk about that? What are the numbers you juvenile lard ass nerd, for opposing quarterbacks at Met Life Stadium? Stafford did what this year? 74 more passing attempts for a little more than a hundred more yards?
    Go eat a half gallon of ice cream and fall asleep as you play with your manly mammary glands

    • Guns of Navarone

      Have at it!! Insult people in the INTERNET! Don’t pound those keys too hard when you get all butt hurt and frrrrrrustrated talking about Eli.

      • ChooChoo

        go see who insulted who first, jackass

        • Guns of Navarone

          You did. You came in with the bed time joke; which was GOLD by the way.

    • Jesse

      Can you at least learn how to reply to the person you’re talking to, instead of just commenting on the thread itself? Good Lord, you are ridiculous.

      And btw, I can clearly tell you’re upset that I came on here and dissed your little Eli Manning by your “you juvenile lard ass nerd” and “Go eat a half gallon of ice cream and fall asleep as you play with your manly mammary glands” remarks. Really shows you’re pissed off about things that are so small in life and that shouldn’t matter, and shows you have basically no life.

    • http://abovetheyankeedugout.com/ Carl

      Knock it off. You’re making Giants fans like me look bad. Why wouldn’t I not be surprised Eli didn’t get an All-Pro vote anyway? Besides, quarterbacks like Vick, Romo, Rodgers, Rivers, Tebow, Brees and Brady are the ESPN & NFL Media darlings as is. And I’ve been ignoring them, having not given a shit about them all year. No different with the All-Pro voting.

  • Monteroisdinero

    MLB has Sweet Lou and Bucky f’in Dent on the 1978 Fenway game now. Good memories.

  • http://abovetheyankeedugout.com/ Carl

    ?4-0 at the Consol Energy Center? 4-0 at the Consol Energy Center.

    • http://abovetheyankeedugout.com/ Carl

      Oops. Fail with the question mark in front there.

  • Plank

    It looks like Larkin is going to be the only guy getting in this year, too. The logjam continues.

    http://www.baseballthinkfactor.....ting_gizmo

    • Pat D

      Pete Rose write-ins? People are still doing that? HE’S NOT FUCKING ELIGIBLE, NIMRODS!!

      Glad to see how well Raines and Trammell are doing, but Bernie’s number absolutely sucks!

  • candyforstalin

    did you ever think of dividing the fan confidence pool? ownership, gm, coaching staff, playing staff, farm, something like that. perhaps even subdividing the playing staff.

    • MannyGeee

      How many more ‘teh yankeeez suckkkkkk’ opportunities do you want out there?

      • Rainbow Connection

        How many ‘you’re a piece of poop for not voting 9 or higher’ opportunities…blah…blah…

        • Jumpin’ Jack Swisher

          Nowhere near as many of those as there are “how could you vote that high?! do you ever criticize the team?!” comments.

        • MannyGeee

          My point exactly. Give the ppl one opportunity to bitch, not seven.

  • RRRRRRandy

    https://twitter.com/#!/StealthMountain

    Possibly the greatest Twitter account of all-time

  • Jumpin’ Jack Swisher

    This would be a great opportunity to point how awesome my Miami Heat are, even with someone’s grandma at center.

  • JobaWockeeZ

    Jesus this should stay a baseball blog. And I’m agreeing 100 percent with Mustang here. Eli has one of the worst offensive lines in the game right now yet people still want to fucking suck Mark Sanchez’s dick.

    Eli wins the rings, compiles the stats, makes no excuses but everyone shit son him. Sanchez throws the picks, throws more picks, throws picks at the worst possible time but stays pretty and everyone loves him.

    Christ. An Eli bash thread when the other NY QB sucks infinity times more.

    • FIPster Doofus

      Do people really think Mark Sanchez is good? He’s awful.

    • http://abovetheyankeedugout.com/ Carl

      This. No respect from ANYONE and gets ripped after a bad game by idiots and dickbags from ESPN and in the NFL Media when they get the chance.

    • Pat D

      Just to once again clarify, I wasn’t dogging Eli. I completely agree with you.

      All I said was that he probably didn’t deserve any votes for the AP All-Pro team when Brady, Brees and Rodgers were all better this year.

  • http://goldenshowers.com Favrest

    If you’re going to take steroids, you might as well take them for more than one year

  • Jose M. Vazquez..

    No matter what anybody says I still think Matsui was robbed of the ROY in 2003. What ever happened to playing in a tougher division, seeing better pitching and being on a pennant winning club? Does that not count? They considered Ichiro a rookie but not Matsui. The other two guys you mention played for second division clubs.

  • Andrew518

    quasi interesting Berroa note, he got signed out of an independant league by D-backs orginization and finished up this past season at Triple A backing up Cody Ransom.