Open Thread: Saying Goodbye


Prospects are like being in love in high school. Our commitment level is through the roof and we’re convinced that no matter what everyone else says, it’s for real. No one understands, we’re in love. Ultimately we’re left heartbroken in the end, then we get over it and move on to the next.

I’m fairly certain that no Yankees prospect has captured more hearts than Jesus Montero, who is just a physical exam away from being a Seattle Mariner. We caught a glimpse of his hell raisin’ capabilities in September, but not nearly enough. His long-awaited big league debut did not disappoint, giving our years of rosterbation and minor league box score checking validation. Montero was going to be the next great Yankee, launching opposite field bombs over the short porch for the next 20 years. It was going to be glorious.

A year and a half ago we almost broke up because of a silly fling with a floosy named Cliff*. We weren’t thinking clearly back then and got caught up in the moment. This breakup is for real though, and it hurts. We’ll spend the next five weekends eating ice cream out of the container and watching bad movies on Netflix, wondering where it all went wrong. Then we’ll get over it. The green grass of Spring Training will draw us out of our misery and the pop of the glove catching that 97 mph fastball will make us feel alive again. None of us will ever forget Montero, but sometimes you can’t control things and you have to move on. He may very well be the one that got away, but chances are we’ll find someone else and fall in love all over again.

* * *

Here’s your open thread for the day. Like yesterday, I’m posting this early because of the NFL playoffs. The Texans and Ravens play at 1pm ET (on CBS), then the Packers and Giants give it a go at 4:30pm ET (on FOX). The Rangers are also playing later tonight, and that game will be on the NBC Sports Network, formerly Versus. So all you Time Warner customers actually get to see the team with the league’s best record tonight. Talk about whatever you like, anything goes.

* Yes, I know how wrong that sounds.

Categories : Open Thread


  1. Kevin G. says:

    See you in six years, Jesus.

  2. Steve S. says:

    All you Montero huggers will move on to Gary Sanchez within the next two weeks. He’s even better, the next one always is.

  3. Jumpin' Jack Swisher says:

    That picture makes me want to drink heavily now.

    • I am not the droids you're looking for... says:



      I’m trying to be rational and “like” the trade. But…JESUS!!

  4. Paul VuvuZuvella says:

    I thought Hannah’s “vomit awful” was good, but “rosterbation” ? Hahahahahahahaha!!!!!

  5. jsbrendog says:

    Alas, the ranger game will prob be blacked out like the knicks game on tnt last week. Fuck you dolan!

  6. vin says:

    I’m just glad we got Arodys Vizcaino back in the organization… and he now goes by the name Jose Campos.

  7. handtius says:

    i’m going to miss that cheap, huge bat. i think pineda will be good, but i wonder how good. enough to offset a bat that’s going to be a perennial mvp? that’s my thoughts on jesus. they may be skewed because he was yankee coming through the system. pineda, on the other hand, i don’t know enough about. i know he was good last year and i know he needs another pitch. like they say, a bat is a better bet then a pitcher. i’m just hoping for an even trade, cause i’m going to miss that bat.

  8. H20man says:

    Would all of you be quiet, I’m trying to rosterbate….

  9. Thomas Cassidy says:

    I enjoyed reading the comments over the previous Pineda-Montero threads. But I hope this is the last one. After that trade was announced, all the morons suddenly flocked to this site to talk about a trade they knew nothing about.

  10. MannyB ace2be says:

    I love Pineda and Im not worried about him developing into a solid complement to cc as our number 2 the only thing that really concerns me with him is that elbow injury – how do you think the yanks will handle his innings next season? Is it true that they are going to slot him in as their 4th behind cc kuroda and nova to ease him in?

    • Bo Knows says:

      The injury was almost 3 years ago, his body is much bigger and more sturdy than it was back then and on top of that he has undergone a gradual innings increase every year so he should be good for 200

      • Craig Maduro says:

        I’ve come to learn that “big, sturdy bodies” mean little when it comes to elbow injuries. The list of physical “horses” to go down w/ TJS is endless.

        I believe that there are some things an organization can do to lower the risk of injury, but I think it’s mostly about luck.

  11. Steve H says:

    No matter how you feel about the trade, 5 years of Pineda >>>> 3 months of Lee.

    • Avi says:

      Totally agree with that.

    • Sweet Dick Willie says:


      If those 3 months of Lee produce a title and the 5 years of Pineda don’t, now how do you feel?

      • pete says:

        pissed. but not because of the montero-pineda trade.

      • Ted Nelson says:

        I feel fine about that. Lee bombed in the WS… so expecting that he would have won it for the Yankees seems a little odd to me. I’ll take increasing my chances of winning for 5 years over 1 year.

        I’m more worried that the Yankees just gave a “#3″ for a “#2″ and threw in the best hitting prospect in baseball outside of Bryce Harper for fun. Not saying that’s going to happen, just that it’s a possibility that I see as more likely than the Yankees getting the better end of this trade.

      • Avi says:

        5 years of Pineda = a greater chance to contribute to a ring than 3 months of Cliff Lee. Not an oversimplification, just simple.

      • thumper says:

        Pissed that we didn’t win a title but still happy we most likely got FAR more value in 5 years of Pineda that anything Lee could have done in 3mo.

  12. H20man says:

    Will you guys be quiet, I’m trying to rosterbate…

  13. Sal says:

    The bottom line is the Yankees never thought that he can catch despite what they said publicly. I thought along that they would trade him this off season for a pitcher. They avoided having catch in September even after they had clinched a playoff spot. I kind of hoped they would trade him for a more established pitcher. In every interview this off season Cashman compaired him to a young Posada and how he will be worked in slowly DHing and catching part time. It was all propaganda to set up a Montero trade..

    • Steve S. says:

      Forget about what the Yankees said, the majority of scouts didn’t think he was a Catcher. Teams have an obvious interest to lie about these things.

      • Ed says:

        The lying cuts both ways though. You want to talk up your own prospects and talk down others.

        If your scouts tell everyone, “Yeah, Montero is as good as they say he is”, it’s only going to hurt you when Cashman calls you up to talk trades. If you’re on record saying that you don’t value Montero as highly as the Yankees do, then you’ve got a stronger starting position.

  14. CJ says:

    These moves especially the trade would make for a great few days of talk radio in the fan. Friday night trade and giants game today puts it off. It will be interesting to see how
    Much time this gets in a football Monday or how interested the callers are by Tuesday.

  15. Avi says:

    I have tears in my eyes after reading that Montero write up. I can barely type. Good luck in the pacific northwest son.

  16. Rich in NJ says:

    I doubt I’ll watch Yankees-Mariners games, and although I have defended Cashman on Yankee boards for about 10 years, I will never do it again. I will root as hard for the Yankees as I ever had, but if they underperform and Cashman gets fired, I’m fine with it.

    • Rainbow Connection says:


    • Sweet Dick Willie says:

      And what if they win a title (or two) in the next few years w/ Pineda being a beast?

    • Rey22 says:

      Jesus man, This wasn’t Scott Kazmir traded for Victor Zambrano. Cashman traded a potentially very good young bat for a potentially very good young pitcher that already survived one year in the majors. Saying you don’t mind if your team sucks so the GM that traded one young player you loved is fired is just immature. Are you a fan of the New York Yankees or are you a fan of Jesus Montero? Cause last time I checked, you can be both. Root for your damn team and hope he does well up in Seattle. It’s not very complicated.

      • Guns of Navarone says:

        This wasn’t Scott Kazmir traded for Victor Zambrano.

        Repeated for EMPHASIS!

      • Kevin Winters says:

        Are you a fan of the New York Yankees or are you a fan of Jesus Montero?


        “I will root as hard for the Yankees as I ever had,”

        hmm sounds like he’s a Yankee fan

    • Brian S. says:

      Fuck Cashman.

    • murakami says:

      Rich in NJ,

      You are speaking my mind. I’ll never defend that bastard again.

  17. Joe says:

    Mike, you made me cry. Just thinking of what Jesus Montero could have done with his opposite field power in Yankee Stadium during his prime is what I’m going to miss most. This is a guy I’ve been following since the day they sign him. I’ve met him and his parents numerous times. I know he can’t catch but that bat is special. I’m just sad to see him go. As for Pineda, he has stud potential but he is no sure thing. If I were trading Montero, I would want back a sure stud. Obviously, we can only hope Pineda turns into the stud that some scouts are in love with and becomes our future ace. RIP JESUS

    • G says:

      His prime is going to be 27-29, and he’ll be a free agent after 6 years, incidentally how much longer Teixeira is under contract (well close enough). Sure the Mariners could extend him, but they’ve got King Felix, Smoak, and Ackley demanding big dollars around that time too. If they all develop and have to pick one to let walk, I bet they’ll let the one who can’t play defense walk.

      We could still get him for his prime, don’t worry. Not saying to expect it, just there’s a chance.

  18. Sal says:

    Imagine if Montero hit hits a 500 ft. bomb against Pineda in his first at bat.

    • Steve S. says:

      Imagine if Jesus hits worse than Justin Smoak did last year. Jack Z will find himself on the unemployment line.

      • Rich in NJ says:

        That would be great, but Cashman has similar risks, and there was no reason to take them on.

      • JobaWockeeZ says:

        Starting the Casey Kelly-esque smear campaign?

        • Steve S. says:

          No. But believe it or not, Montero could be a bust. Top prospects become elite players at a higher rate than middling ones, but they still bust about a third of the time, become average players another third and become elite the last third. Odds are always against a player being elite, which should be obvious by simple math.

          Remember what a sure thing Hughes was? And your namesake was going to be the next Roger Clemens. I’m simply saying its a possibility that Montero doesn’t pan out. It’s something I’ve said all along. I’ve always thought he was a trade chip, because he lacked a long term position on the team.

          • thumper says:

            Steve, not to all Ted Nelson on you and start demanding that you cite everything, but can to direct me to a link where you can up with the 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 thought? Just wondering if you’re shooting from the hip or whether there was some type of analysis you came across.

          • murakami says:

            If you have watched Jesus Montero hit for any length of time (as I have watched him since his Trenton days), you will understand that predicting possible failure for him is the region of fantasy – not predicting that he’s bound for a special career.

            Montero is a hitter virtually without a weakness. Fail? He is going to put up a heartbreaking OPS year after year.

        • Rainbow Connection says:

          Casey Kelly-Austin Jackson-Phil Coke-IPK-esque.

    • Avi says:

      Then the Yankees will win 5-1.

    • Rey22 says:

      Then imagine if Pineda strikes him out the next 25 times they meet. What’s your point?

  19. JobaWockeeZ says:

    Brian Cashman told me last night that Michael Pineda better improve the change-up & develop into a #1 starter or he will have made a mistake

    …I don’t even know what to say. While I share these sentiments how the hell could you be confident that it’ll work out like this? Either he’s hyping Montero to make us feel like he wasn’t shopping him which I find bullshit now, or he actually means it.

    I mean if this were the Rays I’d feel a little better about Pineda’s future but we’re still dealing with a fuckton of risk.

    • Steve S. says:

      Meh. I remember Cash saying he gave up significant value for Nick Swisher and Bobby Abreu/Lidle. I can’t take his post-trade comments too seriously.

      • Steve S. says:

        Also, consider the context. Most MSM outlets scored this deal as a below market coup for the Yanks. He wants to push back on that perception to retain credibility. Nobody wants a reputation of being a guy who screws everyone in trades, it makes it harder to make future deals.

    • ItsATarp says:

      It tells me they see something in Pineda they really like, if it’s worth that big of a gamble.

    • Guns of Navarone says:

      I have to disagree with him even if he believes that’s true.

      Let’s go Back to the Future and imagine Pineda becomes a two-pitch, innings-eating, mid rotation, young AJ Burnett, strikeout type pitcher. Never reaching “number one” status.

      ~200 innings of AJ Burnett type pitching is worth roughly 4-5 fWAR. Very rough mind you… Pineda has demonstrated very good command so far in his career. But let’s imagine his fly ball tendencies in Yankee Stadium really hurt his FIP and he’s not able to command a third pitch to make him a true number one.

      David Ortiz has been one of the best-hitting DHs in recent memory. The best season of his career was 6.3 fWAR. That’s .332/.445(!)/.621 and a .448 wOBA. Those are EXTREMELY lofty expectations for any hitter at any position. Alex Rodriguez, the centaur himself, only managed to produce a .449 wOBA once in his career. Ortiz’s peak seasons with the Red Sox produced an average of 4.9 WAR over five seasons.

      So, keeping this in mind, Montero would have to put up incredible offensive numbers – the absolute peak of his ceiling – in order to provide better value than the Yankees will be getting from a mid-rotation, reasonably projected Pineda.

      Unless you think Montero will be an effective catcher. That’s an entirely different story. But he has yet to do that. And if you’re honest with yourself, it’s hard to think the Yankees would have traded him if they thought he would do that.

  20. P says:

    After breaking up with a girl you truly love, you need a dirty little hookup, something to take your mind off of the one you lost… Go sign prince

  21. Nick says:


  22. Avi says:

    There were 13 players to hit 30 homers and bat .290 last year. If you believe Montero will be that kind of hitter and I do, then Pineda needs to be a top 13-15 starter in order to validate the trade. I think as fans who grew up in the steroids era we don’t realize how scarce good hitters have become. Futhermore, under the new CBA calls for HGH testing and it wouldn’t be a surprise to see offense dip even further.

    • Steve S. says:

      From Seattle’s perspective, Montero better catch or they didn’t do well in this deal. Look at what Gonzalez and Latos went for. Pineda’s younger, under control longer and arguably a better pitcher. If I’m a Mariners fan I’m wondering why our future ace fetched less than those guys, who netted 3 of the other team’s top 5 prospects.

      • jason says:

        I’m more confident in montero’s upside being realized than i am in Pineda being an ace.

        • Steve S. says:

          That’s just silly. Pineda has already performed at a high level for a full MLB season while Jesus had 18 games in September.

          • jason says:

            Incorrect assumption, maybe. Silly? I believe there’s a pretty solid consensus that Jesus will mash and hitters (as many posters have pointed out over the last 24 hrs) are inherently less risky than pitching prospects.

            • Steve S. says:

              In Pineda’s case you’re dealing with performance. In Montero’s you’re dealing in projection. That’s why I think placing more confidence in Montero over Pineda is misguided.

          • JobaWockeeZ says:

            And using your example Hughes had his 2010. One year doesn’t mean shit. Neither does Jesus’ September but I’ll trust the bat more than the shoulder, arm, elbow or whatever that has plagued pitchers for generations.

    • Avi says:

      Players who hit at least 30 homers and batted .290 or better last year:
      Pujols, Prince, Braun, Bautista, Kemp, Ellsbury, Miguel Cabrera, Beltre, Berkman, Konerko, Morse, Napoli and Tulowitzki.

    • Avi says:

      MLB runs per game:
      ’06 4.86
      ’07 4.80
      ’08 4.65
      ’09 4.61
      ’10 4.38
      ’11 4.28
      In ’99 and 2000 when I think a lot of us formed our opinions as to how valuable an ace is the league was scoring about 5.14 runs per game; almost a FULL RUN less than today’s game.

  23. Avi says:

    You also need more good hitters than you do good starters, which makes the hitter even more valuable compared to an equal starter. The equation obviously isn’t this simple but you need 9 hitters and just 5 starters.

    • RkyMtnYank says:

      Not in the playoffs. So you don’t think the Yankees will make the playoffs without Montero? That #2 starter becomes exponentially more important.

      • Avi says:

        I disagree that a pitcher is more valuable than a hitter in the postseason or that the formula to win somehow changes.

        • Avi says:

          World Champions’ starting rotation: Carpenter, Hymie Garcia, Kyle Louse and Edwin Jackson.
          CC, Kuroda, Nova, Garcia/Hughes (no Pineda) is at least as good.

          • Mike HC says:

            People are constantly saying that about the Cardinals to show that you don’t need a great staff, but Wainwright also went down for the year, and they had to trade prospects for an Edwin Jackson rental. So the WS winning rotation had to endure a season ending injury to their ace, along with making a deadline deal for a rental. The Cardinals had very strong starting pitching.

            Saying that, I love the Yanks rotation and definitely think it is WS worthy if things go reasonably well.

    • Tom Swift says:

      If you assume that offense and defense are equally valuable, then doesn’t the fact that you need 9 for a lineup but only 5 starters suggest that starters are MORE valuable, not less?

      • Avi says:

        “If you assume that offense and defense are equally valuable, then doesn’t the fact that you need 9 for a lineup but only 5 starters suggest that starters are MORE valuable, not less?”

        Not if there are the same amount of good hitters and pitchers. The hitter becomes the more scarce commodity. There would be more good pitchers to “go around” than there are goof hitters. I was saying that if Montero and Pineda are top 15 starters and hitters respectively, than Montero is the more valuable commodity.

        • Avi says:

          I actually think there are a lot more good starters than there are good hitters. There were 50 starters to throw at least 165 innings and have a 3.70 ERA or better. Pineda btw wasn’t one of them.

      • Avi says:

        Posted this above:
        MLB runs per game:
        ’06 4.86
        ’07 4.80
        ’08 4.65
        ’09 4.61
        ’10 4.38
        ’11 4.28
        In ’99 and 2000 when I think a lot of us formed our opinions as to how valuable an ace is the league was scoring about 5.14 runs per game; almost a FULL RUN less than today’s game.

      • deadrody says:

        Clearly. And the fact is that of those 9 hitters, games often come down to 1 or 2. Think about A-Rod, alone. From 2004-2008 he didn’t hit well in the post-season. Yankees do not advance. In 2009, Alex went nuts and carried the team. How many of those games did Alex win in the team’s last AB ? If he hits like he did from 2004 to 2008 do they win the series in 2009 ?

        Simple answer: No. Now, I grant you, Montero could very well be THAT good. But then, so could Alex, Grandy, Cano, Tex, etc.

        The fact is that pitching is more valuable than hitting. Why ? Because good pitching beats good hitting. There may be exceptions to the rule, but that is STILL the rule

        • murakami says:

          Sorry, the only guys that a comparable to Montero in terms of what he will be in the majors are Alex and Cano.

          Granderson has got quick hands and great power on inside pitches, but he’s not even in the neighborhood of Jesus Montero as an overall hitter. Montero will be like a .330 35 homer guy as a matter of course. Teixeira? Are you fucking kidding me? I expect him to adapt his swing and have a much better year, but Jesus Montero is far beyond the reach of someone like Teixeira.

          Like I said: .330, 35 homers, even playing in Seattle. He’s just that good. He’ll have to adjust emotionally to being dealt, but he wasn’t here that long and his swing the other way will play fairly well in that park, even though right-center of the Stadium would have given him the numbers normally associated with what an elite left-handed power pull hitter could do in Yankee Stadium.

          It’s amazing the lack of understanding I’m reading here on how Montero’s bat is going to play over his career. You’ll be able to count those in his neighborhood on one hand before he’s through, even if he is less than Piazza behind the plate. He’s going to hit and witnessing it is going to hurt.

    • Nick says:

      You don’t need 9 hitters, you need 9 position players. Position players both hit and field.

    • pete says:

      dude, i get that emotions are the enemy of rational objectivity, but that’s like arguing that a sacrifice cannot ever be successful because there are four bases vs. three outs. Saying “the equation obviously isn’t this simple” doesn’t make it any less ridiculous.

  24. Well said, Mike.

    I love the Pineda trade and I agree with it. But that doesn’t make losing Jesus hurt any less. He kind of falls into that Lee category now, almost; the one who got away. Cliff Lee was never ours and in a somewhat fitting way its kind of feels like maybe Jesus Montero never was either. Oh well.

  25. Granderslam says:

    Montero’s gone: Let’s try and replace him with Brown, Butler, or Trumbo!

    I’m excited for Pineda, personally. I remember watching the All-Star game and complaining to a friend that the Yankees don’t have any exciting, young players like that in the rotation. Now we do, with much more to look forward to: B’s. And, for once, we are so overstocked that we can use that extra talent to maybe bring us players that fill present and future needs.

    • Steve S. says:

      I’m excited for Pineda as well. He’s very much a right handed Sabathia in terms of stuff, and maybe the big man can help him along in his development. He also has a fellow young Dominican on the staff in Nova, hopefully they can help each other in terms of approach. One needs to stay aggressive and the other might need to learn how to dial it back some. Could be some interesting story lines on that staff this year.

  26. Mariano's Pimp Hand says:

    I was looking for another power pitcher who had similar numbers to Pineda as a 22 year old. A found one who was reasonably close.


    CC 6.42 3.01 0.87 .285 3.60 3.95 4.23 3.7
    MP 9.11 2.89 0.95 .258 3.74 3.42 3.53 3.4

    CC was in his third season while Pineda, obviously, was in his rookie year. Make of it what you will.

  27. Andrew says:

    montero has been my dh/backup catcher for my franchise in the show for 3 seasons now. time to find another backup catcher :-(

    • JobaWockeeZ says:

      Make sure he isn’t in the organization if you want a realistic team. Unless it’s Cervelli because he did something to make the Yankees love him.

  28. Fred says:

    This trade is a major mistake because we had a middle of the order hitter with awesome Yankee Stadium power for the next 15 years who was not afraid of any situation. He is the type of player who will have better stats in the majors than he had in the minors.

    I hate Cashman so much for taking this away from us. When your line up has a hittler like Montero in the middle of the line up, he makes everyone else better. We had a game changer and gave him away for a guy that the league caught up on the second time around.

    Jay Buhner will look like Tony Womack compared to what Montero will do.

    Does anyone remember the looks of awe on Texieria and the rest of the Yankees when they saw his awesome right center power?

    Thanks Cashman, it is just too bad you never feel off that building in Stanford.

    One last thing, next year we could have had Hammels or Cain if we wanted a proven young stud pitcher and still had an MVP candidate hitting in the middle of our line up for 15 years.

    Remember, we did not lose last year on pitching, we lost on lack of hitting.

    • ItsATarp says:

      There is no guarantee Montero will become an MVP candidate. By your logic, Pineda will become a Cy young pitcher and sure up the rotation for the next 15 years. Also there is no guarantee that the yanks can sign Cain or Hamel or that they will even hit the market.

    • Rainbow Connection says:

      This sentence is amazing in so many ways…

      “When your line up has a hittler like Montero in the middle of the line up, he makes everyone else better.”

      • FIPster Doofus says:

        It reads like a line spoken by an MLB Network analyst. Harold Reynolds and Mitch Williams come to mind.

        • G says:

          Mitch’s analytic techniques are hysterical, but I sill love him for being a giant smart ass. Like when he said Curt Schilling shouldn’t be in the Hall.

          “But [Schilling] has the best strikeout to walk ratio of all time!”
          “… Congratulations!”


    • RkyMtnYank says:

      Montero was part of that lineup last year too, so what happened?

    • Jumpin' Jack Swisher says:

      I really wish people would spell Hamels correctly if they want him on the team so badly. It would really suck to give Jason Hammel a huge contract after 2012.

    • Sweet Dick Willie says:

      For a different perspective, look at it this way:

      If one of the B’s put up a rookie year like Pineda did, how would you feel if Cashman flipped him for a highly touted prospect?

    • murakami says:

      This post is 100 percent correct.

      Montero should have been the one untouchable. Sanchez is the closest thing to him, and he’s at least 3 years away.

      Pineda is now Sabathia, who has one of the best changeups in baseball. Pineda doesn’t have a 3rd pitch. Montero, meanwhile, is going to hit his way into obscurity.

      Keep drinkin’ the koolaid, folks. Pineda’s got raw tools, but he’s a project. He’s not coming in to be a No. 2 this season. He’s Joba circa 2008 with two less pitches.

      Cashman just sucks. His lineup was the downfall in the postseason, as that big hit was illusive because there was no one to lay off a pitcher’s pitch or make solid contact and lay off crap out of the zone. Girardi had his man on the bench, and never used him in key pinch-hit spots.

      The Mariners are going to use him alright, and he’s going to abuse pitchers for years to come.

  29. Fin says:

    The Seattle fans had a similar reaction as Yankee fans. They are pretty upset about loosing Pineda on their websites. However, it could be argued that they have a bigger complaint. THey lost a major league player for prospect. If you are a Mariners fan and google Montero and see his stats from the minors, you are really going to wonder WTF the Mariners did, as Montero’s stats in AAA are not dominate.

    I hope it works out for both teams, and I know I’ll be watching some Mariner games this year on MLBtv.

  30. MattNC says:

    In downplaying Montero’s potential value, I think some people are undervaluing a potentially great DH. Edgar Martinez had a 7-year run as a DH in which he put up and average of 5.8 WAR (baseball reference version). Even David Ortiz managed a 4-year run averaging 5 WAR (yes, he was probably on ‘roids, but Montero has greater natural ability and power, and would have had the short porch to shoot at, which aligns with his natural inclination). I think Montero would have been a 45-50-win stick in YS over, say, a 10-12 year run. Let’s hope Pineda can stay healthy enough and develop into a similarly valuable player. As far as the postseason is concerned, in the relative Yankee championship drought of 2001-present, I can remember far more series losses that have come on balance from lack of offense than from our pitchers being blasted. Exceptions to that would be the 2002 series versus the Angels, and the deciding game 7 of the 2004 ALCS. I though what the Yankees have need in recent years is a another hitter who could deliver line drives and extra base hits (including some timely bombs) without over-swinging. Montero seemed to fit that bill, especially in with the new, even shorter porch in RF in YS. It will be exciting to see Pineda develop, especially if he can harness that change-up, but I hate to give up a great bat like Montero. I just re-watched his 2-HR game, and man, that effortless swing resulting in 400-foot oppo bombs was bee-yoo-tee-ful:


    • DM says:

      You guys keep forgetting that he couldn’t be an every day DH on this team. They rotate the regulars into that spot. A-Rod will be DH’ing more and more of these last 6 yrs of his deal. Montero needed to be the number 1 catcher to get those ABs or leave via trade. The Yankees always seemed inclined toward the latter — as they barely caught him during his call up. His lack of position matters on a team that has its future DHs locked in for years at big money. He didn’t fit. You can’t ignore the full context. His position — or lack there of — mattered. And growing whispers about an attitude problem didn’t help either.

    • Guns of Navarone says:

      And those type of players are very rare. You’re putting Montero into some extremely good company. Just because one guy put up 7 WAR as a DH doesn’t mean it’s going to happen for Montero.

      Also, I’m not saying I’m an expert on Montero, but he hasn’t shown ANYTHING NEAR the plate discipline of an Edgar Martinez or a David Ortiz. His strikeout numbers have been good, but not THAT good. Martinez routinely produced above a 15% BB rate in an average year. Ortiz was around 12-16% during his peak.

      Frankly, I think it’s unrealistic mentioning Montero with Martinez and Ortiz at this stage. That would be like mentioning Pineda with Roger Clemens.

  31. Tanke87 says:

    How about pinedaismoneda?!?

  32. Darren says:

    I haven’t felt this bad since Brien Taylor’s Bar Fight.

  33. Mike HC says:

    I’m getting more and more excited for Pineda by the day. I’m going to miss Montero, but it is going to be fun watching Pineda pitch.

  34. haha says:

    JonHeymanCBS Jon Heyman
    #yankees have talked to damon about possibly dhing. would be great for him if they can swing it.

    would damon bat 2nd and put grandy 4th or would damon bat 7th or 8th if he signed with the yanks

    • Granderslam says:

      Ugh. I hope not. Don’t get me wrong, I LOVE Damon. Still wear his jersey to the gym. But, I think the Yankees would be much better off with a Pena or JD Drew type to (somewhat) offer Montero-like production- or at least what we might have expected it to be. The Yankees are in a great position right now. They can sign someone on the market, they can swing a trade for a young bat, or they can maybe pull off an AJ for bad contracted hitter trade. Who knows? Why go after Damon? Makes no sense.

      • RkyMtnYank says:

        You really said JD Drew? ugh

        • Granderslam says:

          I wouldn’t be happy about it, but if he can return to old form (forgetting last year), it’s definitely worth a gander over Damon imo.

          • RkyMtnYank says:

            Damon hit .261/.326/.418 with 16 homers and 19 steals for the Rays last year at DH. I think he still has a good right field swing for YS and should come close to those numbers again. I’d take that over anything remotely related to JD Drew.

    • I am not the droids you're looking for... says:

      7th or 8th.

  35. Avi says:

    I think it’s fair to say that Pineda and Montero both have much more pressure on them to perform this season than if the were still on their respective teams.

    • Mike HC says:

      The pressure on Pineda just f’ing skyrocketed off the charts, that is for sure. Montero also has some added pressure as well, maybe more having to do with his defense.

    • Ted Nelson says:

      Pressure is hard to quantify, but I’m not sure Jesus will have as much pressure in Seattle as NY. The Mariners didn’t have one hitter last season get 400 PAs with a wOBA over .316… Brendan Ryan was their 2nd best hitting regular with a wOBA of .291… Ackley and Montero will look like Gods to the people of Seattle if they can manage full seasons at wOBAs over .320.

    • DM says:

      They better hope Montero isn’t “bored” after leaving the Yankees for sleepy Seattle. He had a lot of All-Stars with rings to get in his face with the Yankees (after he jogs to first base on a ground ball to short)but not on his new team.

      • Mike HC says:

        Montero was in a great situation being able to break in with the Yanks. He had little to no pressure on him defensively, and was not expected to carry our offense. In Seattle, you get the feeling he is going to be catching more than if he was here, and he is expected to carry the offense with Ackley and Smoak. All young guys.

        • DM says:

          I don’t know. I think any prospect who knows he’s going to be in there regularly no matter what is in a better position. He’ll get a much longer leash out there. 0-20 in his first ABs next year with the Yankees and he’d be booed and benched or platooned — another 2-18, he might be sent down. No patience in NY — plenty in Seattle. Look at what they put up with in Smoak, but they kept playing him. That wouldn’t happen in NY.

  36. Jamey says:

    Wish Colon nothing but best in Oakland, he definitely gave the Yankees some much needed stability during the 1st half out of nowhere. I didn’t really want a situation where Yankees were counting on he AND Freddy Garcia again but I hope him fading down the stretch was just conditioning & hamstring injury related & not his stem cell treatment breaking down. It was a good story to see him comeback like that. Glad Yankees went out & got a young arm they can hopefully count on for the next decade instead, but I will always appreciate Big Bart’s contribution’s in 2011.

  37. Avi says:

    If you could sign Prince Fielder to a 5 year contract for $20-25M per season, do you do it?

    • RkyMtnYank says:

      I’m guessing that is what he is asking for to begin with, so No!

    • Ted Nelson says:

      Since it’s not my money? Sure. Fielder’s weight is a risk, but he’d only be 32 at the end of a 5 year deal. Guy is a .391 wOBA career hitter whose best years may be ahead of him (especially with the short porch).

      I have no idea whether the Yankees have the budget to sign a Fielder and still have some flexibility to address needs as they emerge down the line + do whatever they want to do in 2014 with the luxury threshold… but if they feel Fielder is in-line with their financial objectives I’m fine with it as a fan.

      • RkyMtnYank says:

        Adding $20mil a year is definitely not in line with reducing the payroll to $189mil in by 2014.

      • Avi says:

        Yeah, I think Fielder is a good bet to perform at or close to his current level of production for the next 5 years. Considering the lack of good hitters in the system and on the free agent market next season, I would sign him to a 5 year deal in a heartbeat.

  38. Tyler says:

    does anyone know where I can find team totals on grounders, flyballs, and popups? doing some research on the yanks xBABIP for next year.

  39. Kevin G. says:

    At least DH is probably the easiest position to fill but it’s still going to hurt.

  40. teddy says:

    BryanHoch Bryan Hoch
    Yankees may be OK trying Jorge Vazquez and Andruw Jones as DHs to begin the season, source says.

    secrew you cashman

  41. FIPster Doofus says:

    According to Jon Heyman the Yankees have spoken to Johnny Damon. Take it fwiw.

  42. Mike Axisa says:

    One-yard run, one-yard run, 18-yard pass, one-yard run, one-yard run, 19-yard pass.

    • Guns of Navarone says:

      Yeah I’m worried that the Giants are going to hurt themselves by getting away from what they do best, which is coincidentally what the Packers are worst at.

      The Giants need to pass the ball against this D. They were last in rushing for a reason.

    • Carl says:

      Followed by 12 or 13-yard pass, 66-yard Touchdown.

  43. Guns of Navarone says:

    This is absolutely Giants’ ball.

  44. Turner says:

    **Posted this on the wrong thread. So here it is here.

    Totally irresponsible thought here about the Pineda/Montero etc trade.

    Wouldn’t it have made SLIGHTLY more sense for the M’s to cough up Felix instead of Pineda? Here’s my reasoning.

    -Felix is owed a lot of money the next few years. Pineda shows Felix-esque promise and is under team control for 5 more years.
    -With that payroll shed, they could delve into the free agent hitting market more often. Adding a guy like Fielder this year and making plays at lesser names in the ’13 class like Phillips, Swisher etc.
    -By giving up Felix they in theory could have filled their rotation for the next few years and gotten Montero. Pineda, Banuelos, Betances, Nosei(?).

    I get he is TEHHH King Felix but from the M’s POV, I honestly think they could have set up their future better by trading felix. Having said that, I’m a fan of the trade and look forward to an blue chip prospect lighting up the radar guns for the next 5 years.

  45. Okyankee24 says:

    The worst part about this is I can see Montero someday replacing Ortiz as the Sux DH. Kick in the nuts.

    • AndrewYF says:

      If by ‘someday’ you mean in 6 years when he’s a free agent, and by ‘Ortiz’ you mean a hobbled Carl Crawford, then no, because the Yankees will easily outbid anyone for him.

  46. Brooklyn Ed says:

    Take this as a gain of salt…

    The New York Yankees have dominated Major League Baseball’s headlines lately for their free agent signing of Hiroki Kuroda and trade for Michael Pineda in recent days. Now they might be at it again for a potent bat to add to their line-up. The latest rumor on the Interwebs has the Kansas City Royals dealing Billy Butler to the Yankees in some deal that includes young pitcher Phil Hughes of the Yankees.


    • AndrewYF says:

      That would be a freaking miracle on the order of the Sabathia/Teixeira/Swisher offseason.

    • Guns of Navarone says:

      It would have to be Phil Hughes plus a prospect. I’m not sure what the Royals would want. Probably more pitching…

    • Rainbow Connection says:

      Unfortunately, all the ninja moves are just that – ninja. Rarely do we hear that something might happen. Rarely is there a leak. Unless this actually happens in the next couple of mins.

      Right? Maybe I’m wrong.

    • Reggie C. says:

      Hughes would be just the start of it. I imagine a B-level SP prospect would also get moved along (warren or phelps) perhaps. Butler is coming off a fine offensive season, but this move would just seem to much like a cost-cutting measure by KC mgmt.

      Its probably just a rumor without fire.

      I’d do it btw … Hughes + Warren or Phelps for Billy Butler.

      • Plank says:

        I think Pena could be had for not much more money than Butler will get. I’d rather have Pena just on numbers and based on not having to give anything up to get him.

  47. Guns of Navarone says:

    This game. Holy shit.

  48. okyankee24 says:

    I dont like making that move. If you dont like Hughes the starter move him back to the pen where he dominated. I realize you get more in return trading Hughes than you do AJ or Garcia but I think the offense is good enough, this year anyway.

    • Guns of Navarone says:

      No, you have to make that move it presented with it. Butler is a damn good hitter and he’s young and cheap. The Yankees can worry about filling out their bullpen later. They have Soriano, Joba, and D-Rob in 2013 after Mo presumably retires. A number of arms on the farm have the ability to fill a 7th inning role.

      • JohnnyC says:

        You consider $8 million in 2012 cheap? He’s due for 8 in 13 and 14 as well with an option for 12.5 in 2015. There’s a good reason the Royals might want to ship him out.

        • Guns of Navarone says:

          $8 million yeah… I didn’t catch his $12.5M option. But I suppose it depends on what his production looks like in 2015.

        • Guns of Navarone says:

          On second thought I’m not so sure. Pena made $10M last season. I’m not sure if Phil Hughes plus a prospect is worth $2M and ten or so more home runs.

          It’s probably a moot point anyway.

      • banuelosisfabuelos says:

        Hughes poised to rebound. His value will rise once teams see restored velocity and effectiveness. By mid-season Hughes will be valuable trade chip who could bring up maybe two decent psition players/prospects.

  49. Holy Ghost says:

    I liked Montero as much as the next guy but there’s nothing in his minor league career stats that points to him being a lock to put up Edgar Martinez or even David Ortiz type production anytime soon. His upside is high but not that high.

    • Monterowasdinero says:

      Yeah wait till he has to go against Weaver and his nasty stuff.

      Oh, he already did and hit a monster HR over the bullpen in Anaheim.

    • murakami says:

      Is it just that you all don’t know a born hitter when you see one???

      Even that idiot Cashman knows on some level what he gave up: that’s why he’s dropping disclaimers while he secretly hopes Montero’s power will play smaller in Seattle and deprive him of gaudy numbers.

      His numbers won’t be what they would have in the Stadium, but he’s still going to have a ridiculous OPS. Even Cashman gets that. Which makes him dumb and dumber all in one.

  50. PinedaColada says:

    I really hope that Pineda turns out amazing. But I know one thing for sure it will be fun to watch his starts and I cannot wait for baseball!

  51. Monterowasdinero says:


    Sounds nicest.

    • Rainbow Connection says:

      I think they’ll trade for Ted Ianetta. Now, stay with me on this…



      It’s a covert message for IPK to do something underhanded, I bet.

  52. Rainbow Connection says:

    Oh Shit!!! I just figured it out!

    Pineda killed Rosie Larsen!

  53. JobaWockeeZ says:

    Packers cheat.

  54. Monterowasdinero says:



  55. JobaWockeeZ says:

    NFL refs deserve a thousand deaths.

  56. JobaWockeeZ says:

    And cheaters never prosper.

  57. pinedastillinbeta says:

    feel like this username is gonna get hate

  58. Monterowasdinero says:


    What’s the Mariner equivalent to RAB?

    Gotta get ready for the west coast edition of Monteroisdinero.

    /realize joke opportunities now arise

  59. JeffG says:

    Marcus Thames?
    bad last year but still young enough…

  60. RetroRob says:

    Who is this Montero character and love interest of whom you speak?

    I’ve been driving through the southeast, before heading back home in a few days. If I need to stop by where Monteroisdinero lives to talk him off the ledge, let me know!

    • Monterowasdinero says:

      I am Cashman and I have been building up Montero for 2 years now so we could get 2 dominant pitchers to take over the #1 and 2 slots for the next 6 years.

      I told Jesus we will take him back in 6 years at 28/29 when his best DH years are still ahead of him.

      No ledge. There is a bigger plan for Jesus.

      • RetroRob says:

        …just as he’s ready to add a couple of MVP awards for the Yankees, and Pineada a couple of Cy Youngs for the Yankees, too!

  61. candyforstalin says:

    homeland. fuck, yeah.

  62. Spicy Kuroda Roll says:

    All this talk about new handles…how’s this one?

  63. ThatstheMelkyMesaWaysa says:

    keeping the melky way alive!

  64. Joltin Joe says:

    Seriously though colon’s in oakland now. Looks like the yankees postgame spread will be a little less exciting each day.

  65. Plank says:

    This is the open thread after all, so I thought I would give my amateurish guesses for starters at every level of the minors. Please tell me where I goofed.


    Martin, Cervelli
    Sanchez, JR Murphy
    ??? (Someone Non-Prospecty)
    Isiaiais Tejeda

    Maybe Sanchez or Murphy jumps to AA and Higashioka rides the pine. What do you think?

  66. Joltin Joe says:

    What do you all think the yankees plan for catcher is in the future? I know next year Martin will be the starter, but is romine the long term answer or someone like sanchez or murphy? Plus sanchez had all the attitude issues last year so will that affect how the Yanks bring him along?

    • Monterowasdinero says:


      I think it will be Romine. He will be Girardiesque-maybe a little more pop with the bat.

    • Plank says:

      I think their plan is to develop all their catching talent and when one is ready to come up, bring them up. If Sanchez progresses as hoped, Romine (or whoever they have at the time) won’t stand in his way.

      Similarly, if Romine is ready to start next year (doubtful) I don’t think anyone will stand in his way. I could see Romine starting 2013 in the backup role and slowly take over.

      That’s getting way ahead of ourselves though. He only has 4 games at AAA at this point.

    • G says:

      Sanchez is a teenager, and as a teenager I can tell you we ALLL have attitude problems. He’s a kid who was handed millions for something he does, it’s only natural he’s going to act like a total prima Donna until he matures.

    • CMP says:

      Matt Wieters will be a FA in 3 years and will only be 28 at the time. Same thing for Alex Avila.

    • Kevin Winters says:

      Sanchez gets traded at some point.

  67. Nathan says:

    I still remember learning that the Yankees signed some 16-year old kid with all the physical tools and the predictions coming right away and the years waiting for Jesus to arrive (heh). It was great watching him during the time we did see him and thinking “man, this guy is going to hit a ton”.

    To those that think he’ll come back to NY due to some connection with the organization…don’t hold your breathe. How would you feel about being trade bait and then being traded away?

    • Monterowasdinero says:

      It’s a business. if he is who/what we want and need in the years to come, it will be done. He was the right guy at the wrong time.

    • Plank says:

      I wouldn’t expect any player to sign for less than they could to stay with one corporation over another. I think the Yankees will offer more money if they are in that position when the time comes. I also think this line of thinking is entirely premature.

    • Klemy says:

      Lets ask Cliff Lee?

  68. Joltin Joe says:

    The funny thing is that in my World History class on Friday, we were talking about Jesus Christ and his crucifixion. Then that night Montero gets traded, like his figurative crucifixion of his Yankees career. Weird, huh?

  69. Jesse says:

    Does anyone know Michael Pineda’s ground ball rates from the minor leagues? Or at least a GB/FB ratio?

  70. Craig says:

    Anyone have a link to Kuroda/Pineda wearing a photo-shopped Yankees cap/jersey? Also, does anyone know when their respective introductory press conferences will be?

  71. Avi says:

    Pitchers, especially ones with just a one year track record of health and effectiveness, are WAY too risky to trade Jesus f-cking Montero for.

    • Pasqua says:

      Jesus f-cking Montero’s 60-odd at-bats don’t exactly put him in the “proven veteran” category, Avi. The trade was a top prospect for a top prospet. Many Seattle fans are probably echoing your sentiments, only in reverse. Nobody knows what will happen, and everybody’s worried that their team made “the mistake.”

      • Avi says:

        “The trade was a top prospect for a top prospet.”
        Hitting prospects are much more likely to remain healthy and and not have wild fluctuations in performance.
        Fact: Pitchers are much more risky than hitters.

        • Mike Axisa says:

          Fact: You need pitchers to win.

          • Plank says:

            I’m going to need to see something to back up that supposition.

          • summits says:

            Fact: offense is why we lost in the playoffs

          • Avi says:

            I would only acquire two kinds of pitchers: One year Kuroda type deals where you’re getting a #2 or #3 pitcher for a reasonable contract, or an elite ace who has multiple years of success and is still young; such as CC, Cliff Lee, Halladay (for record breaking contracts of course). Everyone else please PASS.
            At least that way you minimize risk.
            I would’ve had no problem if the Yanks traded Montero for a David Price or a Jon Lester. But Pineda carries WAY too much risk.
            That’s my philosophy.

            • Plank says:

              That philosophy leads to $260MM payrolls. I would be okay with that, the Steinbrenners probably wouldn’t.

              • Avi says:

                False. That philosophy leads you to not acquire AJ Burnett and Javier Vazquez twice and Carl Pavano etc. It’s the tier 2 guys, the pseudo-aces that hurt you most.
                Again only go low risk Kuroda, or slam dunk ace like CC, Cliff Lee, Halladay, Hamels etc..

                • Plank says:

                  You just said you would have traded Montero for 1 non-cheap year of Jon Lester or 2 non-cheap years of David Price. How would that lead to a payroll that isn’t higher than the current payroll? Especially if that’s a philosophy going forward, not just when AAA has a bunch of near major league ready arms (maybe).

                  • Avi says:

                    It wouldn’t lead to a higher payroll than the current one because you wouldn’t have the dead weight Burnett types on your hands. Lester only has one year left? If that’s the case I wouldn’t trade Montero for him. I’ve been saying for about a year and a half on this site that I would only trade Montero for a pitcher with multiple ace-like years, under thirty and has at least two years of team control remaining. Pineda isn’t that. If he turns out to be an ace or even a #2 for five years the Yanks would end up doing even better than that, but right now on January 15th, there’s WAY too much risk involved.

              • Avi says:

                For example: for the amount of money the Yanks payed Burnett and Kei Igawa last year they could have had Cliff Lee (his desire to pitch in Philly not withstanding).

            • Plank says:

              Also, who were the #2 or #3 pitchers you would have signed to 1 year deals the last few years? 2010 and 2011 off seasons?

              • Avi says:

                I wouldn’t have had too. I would’ve had Halladay and/or Haren in my rotation already.

                • Plank says:

                  How would you have traded for Halladay or Harden if you gave up all your prospects for Mark Mulder, Johan Santana, and Ubaldo Jimenez?

                  Or would you only trade for the pitchers who were successful after they got traded?

              • Avi says:

                The great thing about a rotation is you only need two or three really good pitchers. If you have two aces you can easily win a championship with 3 other ML average starters. It one or two good decisions over a five year period. And that’s the biggest knock against Cashman; in all these years with all the resources he has access too he’s never gotten that second ace.
                (For the record I think he’s a better than average GM and has gotten smarter and better as the years have gone on.)

                • RkyMtnYank says:

                  I’m sure Cashman appreciates your approval given how easy it is to make all these transactions. If only he had your knowledge, education, and wisdom.
                  Also, you recently said we need five sarters and they were less important than 9 position players, what changed your mind?

        • Plank says:

          A pitcher that has had a year of success in the majors and no sign of a statistical anomaly is much more likely to succeed than a hitter that has not shown success at the major league level.

          And in response to your next response, a full season as a starting pitcher and a September call-up are not close to the same thing.

          • Jumpin' Jack Swisher says:

            Needs to be repeated for emphasis, both because some people don’t get this and because some of us (including myself) need to be reminded of it.

  72. Spicy Kuroda Roll says:

    You now have the depth to challenge your young arms to step up and the depth to bear the consequences if they fail in the rotation….The last spot in the rotation should belong to Joba once he’s ready and nobody else unless Hughes starts there and deserves to hold on to it

    • Kevin Winters says:

      Joba didn’t have a shot before and now with Pineda he definitely doesn’t have a shot. I would love to see him start but guys like Hughes, Nova, MP, and the Bs are ahead of him hell Warren and Phelps are higher than him on the Yankee depth chart. Maybe Joba is in a package for a bat and his new teams tries him out as a starter.

      • deadrody says:

        And why would anyone trade a player of any significance whatsoever for a pitcher coming off Tommy John surgery that has not pitched a single inning, even in rehab ?

        Nobody on the planet Earth is trading for Chamberlain until he proves that he has recovered from the injury.

        • Kevin Winters says:

          Of course he would have to prove he could pitch before being traded. Do you think I meant he would be traded right now. SMH. And I said apart of a package for another player clearly Joba alone is not going to bring back a good piece. Anything else you want to know.

  73. TomH says:

    It’s a real pity that Jesus is gone, but it always seemed inevitable that something big was going to happen before the season started, that the Yankees were not going to try to get by with that poor excuse–on paper–for a rotation a second time, hoping that for a second time they would catch lightning in a bottle. Sure, they could have ditched AJ and Freddie and Hughes and tried untested youth, but, this was always unlikely. These are the Yankees. They try to win now, “Victory or Death” is the team’s ancient motto, waving in invisible ink on the World Series flags over the stadium. They needed experienced pitching, and for that you gotta pay.

    But as Sinatra once said to the record producer, Phil Ramone, “This better work.”

  74. sevrox says:

    Favorite Jesus Montero story – took my 7 year old son to a Scranton/Wilkes-Barre Yankees game. Jesus was the starting catcher – he grounded out to first base in his first at-bat and yelled out ‘F*CK!!!’ as he ran to first base. The stadium, being 75% empty, had no problem hearing him. My son turned to me and said, ‘That’s Jesus’?

  75. Fin says:

    When I sit back and look at all this…I think the Yankees may have stole Pineda from the M’s. If montero cant catch, he is a gigantic risk. He was never dominate in AAA. He was good, but not great. There is no comparison to Cabrara who barely played in the minors and finished 27th in mvp voting in MLB when he was 20.

  76. mustang says:

    Giants’ game yesterday AMAZING! Watching Drew Brees and ?Aaron Rodgers get sent home while Eli “Underrated” Manning moves on PRICELESS!!!

    • Fin says:

      Ely wasnt underratted. He was pretty inconsistent. This year he was great and I would assume from here on out he will be in the same conversation as the best in the game.

  77. Fin says:

    BAH, posted before i was done. There is evidence that Montero can be very good but its far from a sure thing. While i was looking forward to seeing him play, almost as much as seeing the Yankees win another WS, I can look forward to a guy whos a monster, throwing gas for the Yankees as well. I dont think the yankees took on any more risk than they gave.

    • murakami says:

      It’s the closest to a sure thing you can get.

      Just make stuff up if it makes you feel better.

      Jesus Montero is special and is going to rake for years.

  78. Jim Cavanaugh says:

    OMG i just read that and im dying. That’s how i felt on Friday night, like i had been surprisingly broken up with.

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