Open Thread: The Pineda-Kuroda Hangover


It’s been a pretty hectic 24 hours in Yankeeland, but I think we’re finally starting to get over the initial shock of last night’s moves. It’s important to note that the Jesus Montero/Hector Noesi-for-Michael Pineda/Jose Campos trade is not yet official, as Buster Olney notes that all four players must still take physicals. Given the drama of the failed Cliff Lee trade, we shouldn’t consider the physicals slam dunks. Assuming all goes well, the trade figures to be announced sometime next week.

In the meantime, I recommend reading this Red Sox Beacon post for a Red Sox perspective on last night’s moves. You should also check out this Beyond The Box Score post, which briefly touches on why Pineda should continue to be successful despite leaving the friendly confines of Safeco Field, and this PitchFX look at his repertoire via FanGraphs. The Hiroki Kuroda signing is pretty straight forward, but it’ll take a while to digest the trade. The implications are far-reaching, and we’ll break them all down here over the next few days and weeks.

For now, use this as your open thread after taking part in the poll below. I’m posting this a little earlier than usual because of the NFL playoffs, with the Saints and 49ers kicking off at 4:30pm ET (on FOX). The Broncos and Patriots follow at 8pm ET (on CBS). All five hockey and basketball locals are in action as well, assuming you still get MSG and can actually watch. You folks know what to do, enjoy the rest of the day.

Thoughts on the Montero/Noesi-for-Pineda/Campos trade?
Total Votes: 3787 Started: January 14, 2012 Back to Vote Screen
Categories : Open Thread


  1. Brooklyn Ed says:

    I seriously hope this is false news. This will rise my blood pressure at the age of 27, not cool!

    MLBInsideNews Source: #Angels and #Yankees discussing Mark Trumbo. Robertson in play.

    • Mike says:

      do you have a link Ed ?

    • Mike Axisa says:

      Pretty sure that is the same guy that said Evan Longoria demanded a trade.

      • Brooklyn Ed says:

        True; this coming week will be very interesting though.

        • Mike Axisa says:

          I’d usually be all for giving up three years of a reliever for five years of an everyday player, but Trumbo just doesn’t fit the Yankees mold. If they want a RHB with power and a sub-.300 OBP, just give the DH job to Jorge Vazquez.

          • Brooklyn Ed says:

            Probably the best move would be A-Rod to DH, and sign a new 3B. I know A-Rod could still field, but the Yanks would want him to stay healthy. The Nakajima signing ended too soon.

          • RRRRRRandy says:

            I agree.

            High five.

          • Steve S. says:

            If you’re going to bring in Carlos Pena, why not save the $ and just give the job to Jorge Vazquez? They’re very similar in profile and Vazquez gives you even more flexibility with his minor league options.

            • Mike Axisa says:

              What? They aren’t even close. Pena drew more walks against right-handed pitchers only last season (79) than Vazquez has drawn against all pitchers since the Yankees signed him in 2009 (56). There’s also a significant difference between left-handed power (Pena) and right-handed power (Vazquez) when factoring in the ballpark.

    • Tim says:

      There is no way Yanks are trading Robertson especially for Trumbo. Just would not be worth it. They know that Mariano won’t be around forever and it would be stupid to trade away such a young arm who currently has great closer stuff. If they actually did that, I would lose all faith. This is why I hate unnamed sources. You can write whatever BS you want.

      • nycsportzfan says:

        not to mention the Yanks might Need Robertson to Close Games in 2013.. Robertson is still pretty young and i woulden’t go trading a possibly future closer whos all ready expierenced in NY and has WON a ring in NY for anything really.. Robertson is 2 good and could have to fill a huge role left by rivera and who better then a guy who knows Rivera and knows the yanks and has WON with the yanks and is all ready a All star?

        • JAG says:

          Ok, saying you wouldn’t trade him for anything is a little bit of hyperbole. Are you really saying that if the Mariners would throw in Felix if the Yankees added Banuelos, Betances, and Robertson that D-Rob would be the hold-up for you?

  2. Sweet Dick Willie says:

    If the Mariners use Jesus as a catcher, and he puts up a Posada-like defense along with his expected offensive output, Pineda or Campos pretty much have to turn into a solid #1 starter for it to be a worthwhile trade for the Yanks.

    • Jumpin' Jack Swisher says:

      Let’s focus on what Pineda can do. Montero is no longer a member of the team. Wish him the best.

      • jussayin' says:

        Yeah. Great second half of the year that he had. Great force so long as no one saw him.

        Dumb move Cashman.

        • Jumpin' Jack Swisher says:

          What’s helping me be more level-headed with the trade is remembering that all we saw of Montero was a one-month sample. We’ve seen an entire season of Pineda, most of it very good. It’s not a 100% sure thing for either team.

        • Bob Loblaw says:

          the kid cant get any slack? he was a 22 year old rookie flame thrower with a plus slider. Let Mo work with him on a cutter and he will be more dangerous. Its like you cast off his whole career b/c he faded in the 2nd half of his rookie season. Get real.

    • Ben says:

      With Sanchez and romine in waiting, I’m hopeful this is a great move for us long term.

    • jussayin' says:

      How many two pitch pitchers have become number 1′s?

      Campos is far away and too much can and will happen in the interim.

      Pitchers are the wave right now, and hitting is dying out. What fills the seats is hitting, and the Yankees were out early because they couldn’t hit. Yeah, trade away a good to great hitter to get a pitcher who got mashed in the second half of the season.

      Great frickin’ move.

      • Sayid J. says:

        What fills the seats is winning, not hitting. And what creates winning is a combination of great pitching and great hitting, which the Yankees now have.

        • summits says:

          Did you watch the playoffs. Our offense sucked ass. they couldnt get a big hit to save their life.

        • MelHallsBattingGlove says:

          i know people have heard of small sample sizes right? it gets brought up all the time in other instances….why does small sample size not apply to a patchwork pitching staff that happenned to throw out a few good games in the ALDS? the best of which was arguably thrown by AJ… Did you really more confidence in the pitching than the hitting had they advanced to the ALCS?

      • Kevin Winters says:

        Campos is far away and too much can and will happen in the interim.


        So have suggested he’ll end up as a reliever. That’s probably just an opinion and not an actual projection on what he might become.

      • Bo Knows says:

        Clayton Kershaw, Josh Beckett, David Price, early years James Shields, Josh Johnson to name a few

      • John in Ithaca says:

        Sandy Koufax. Two pitches.

      • JAG says:

        Johan Santana was/is a fastball/changeup guy who occasionally threw a slider to lefties. I’d classify that as a 2-pitch pitcher.

    • Steve S. says:

      Buster Olney said this morning that Montero HAS to be a Catcher for the Mariners in order for them to get fair value on the deal. If he’s a DH, they got screwed. You don’t trade a front-line 23 year old starter for a DH, no matter how good you think he is.

      • Ted Nelson says:

        Olney said it so it’s true? Who cares about position? It’s about overall value. If he’s a 5 war DH and Pineda is a 3 war sp the M’s got great value… Depending on Noesi and Campos, but Noesi is much more of a sure thing

  3. ChrisW. says:

    Is there a bigger douche in baseball than Bobby Valentine?

  4. Robert says:

    They need to give Vazquez a shot as DH.

  5. jussayin' says:

    The good part about this Montero trade is that it will be the end of Cashman as GM.

    As Pineda tanks and shows that young pitching can be a flash in the pan, while good hitter hit, Cashman will be shown the door.

    There is a glut of good pitching right now, good hitting players, not so much. This trade is a poor move, especially since they signed Kuroda. Now the Yankees have a deep rotation, yet look at what won the WS this year. Hitting.

    In order to win you need balance. Cashman, the moron supreme, has over valued any kind of pitching to pure hitting. Girardi is another factor in all this. He seems to think that the Yankees can’t have an average catcher who can mash. That is what he was, and couldn’t see that there is a lot of value in having a offensive catcher. Meanwhile, how many Yankee teams that won championships won the WS because they had good or great hitting catchers?

    I hope Cashman loses his job as soon as possible, that Girardi the moron follows him out the door.

    Horrible trade that will haunt the Yankees the next 10 years.

  6. Michael Hairston says:

    Does anyone out there wish for an Iphone app for RAB?

  7. YankeesJunkie says:

    The biggest positive effect from this trade has to be that the pressure on both Betances and Banuelos will be fairly minimal.Hopefully, they will both be able to accumulate 150-160 innings in the following season and depending on the pen situation you got a couple big arms coming out for September. Signing Pineda and Kuroda have solidified the pen at a reasonable price considering what teams like the Padres got.

    I am a little sad that they did not get Felix because it would give credibility to ever hypothesized trade someone can come up with.

    • Steve S. says:

      Speaking of reduced pressure, the plan is to make Pineda a back end of the rotation starter. After CC, Nova and Kuroda. They want him to transition slowly and not be dogged by unrealistic expectations.

      Where someone starts isn’t all that meaningful (exc that he’s matching up against other #4s, which should be nice) but it shows you how the Yanks plan on playing this with him. Very smart, glad to see it.

      • Craig Maduro says:

        He’s only matched up against other No. 4′s for maybe the first couple of weeks. After that rotations get shuffled so much that it doesn’t matter. I like the idea of him being the No. 3 personally. Nova had a nice 2011, but Pineda is simply more talented. Once the playoffs start (provided the Yanks are in) you can let Pineda slot into the No. 2 hole.

  8. Short Porch says:

    The trade only highlights for me their inability to develop the pitching they have. That’s more worrisome. They don’t need to move Montero if Joba or Hughes developed into their potential. Now when will the Scranton kids get MLB innings?

    • Jumpin' Jack Swisher says:

      Some of those guys might simply be more expendable now.

      No matter how concerned some of us Pineda-glass-half-empty types may be, he’s already done more than Phelps, Warren, and Mitchell, and is a VERY different kind of pitcher.

    • Kevin Winters says:

      Yep been saying it since the trade went down. If they didn’t screw up those two we still have Montero.

    • mustang says:

      does anyone notice that the starting pitchers that the yanks do develope all have arm problems

  9. Granderslam says:

    I’m satisfied with the trade. Love Montero, but Pineda is just what we needed.
    Now give me Dom Brown please.

    • Mike Axisa says:

      Now give me Dom Brown please.

      I second this.

    • jussayin' says:

      How much will you love him when he gets lit up? He is a fly ball pitcher. In YS that is not going to be successful.

      • joe says:

        Thats why it’s good he strike’s guys out. If the ball doesnt leave the plate, there isn’t much to worry about.

      • Granderslam says:

        The Yankees just acquired a 23-year old with ace ability. And so much room to grow. We can only hope that Betances/Banuelos turn out to produce similarly. Will there be struggles? I’m sure of it. But I will take the upside over a young, permanent DH.

        Hard to be mad about that. Oh and…SSS.

        Now, again…give me Dom Brown.

        • Jumpin' Jack Swisher says:

          If Betances could have his first half-season in the majors look like Pineda’s, we’ll be doing naked backflips all over town.

          Dear God, I really am defending this trade. Thank you, jussayin.

      • Jumpin' Jack Swisher says:

        You are wonders for my own grief process with all this. I’m suddenly defending the trade. Thank you. I’ll call you if my grandma ever passes away.

  10. Monterowasdinero says:

    If Hughes/Joba = DRob then DRob can be traded but that is still an if and far from a guarantee.

  11. Kevin G. says:

    Would this count as my first prospect-crush dream ruined? I mean Montero isn’t a bust but he’s not on the Yankees anymore.

    Also, if Montero stays at catcher than the trade is a huge loss for the Yankees unless one of their catching prospects can fill the void (I’m looking at you Sanchez) or Campos also turns out to be a stud.

  12. bonestock94 says:

    Mind still blown, wish it was opening day.

    Might be getting even more good news if the Red Sox sign Vicente Padilla, can’t wait to bash his head in.

  13. Bobtaco says:

    Some combination of Hughes, AJ, Nunez, $ and a B to FLA, for Hanley, move Jeter to DH…

    :-) my trade proposal sucks?

    • bonestock94 says:


    • joe says:

      Your trade proposal does suck, but I got to wondering that this morning. I don’t know if Hanley is available, but I could see Cashman pulling something off for Hanley. They clearly aren’t done, and I could see Cashman go after a Hanley

  14. Balistes says:

    Should we trade AJ now for Alfonso Soriano?

  15. Matt says:

    Trade for David wright move arod to dh

  16. Paul VuvuZuvella says:

    Would think Pineda is a wee bit intimidating on the mound. Wont hurt the Yans to have another “enforcer” on the team. Always seems like our guys get HBP a lot.

    • CJ says:

      If betances has a good spring training throws strikes put him in the rotation with cc Pineda. That’s some intimidating power arms.

  17. CJ says:

    Pineda trade is aggressive creative and risky. It took balls to pull the trigger. I will not second guess cashman’s trade regardless of future outcome.
    I am concerned about the upcoming moves to sort out dh, Hughes AJ and Freddy.

  18. The Manchine says:

    What hangover? I’m still havin celebratory shots!

  19. mbonzo says:

    My vote for the open slot is to trade for either lefty and local kid Pedro Alvarez or switch hitting Chase Headley.

  20. Chip says:

    I think the Yankees will start to encourage him to pitch inside to set up the slider a bit. If he can locate his fastball inside, he’s going to be even better.


    • Steve S. says:

      I bet the first order of business is for Mo to teach him the cutter. Easy to learn, keeps lefties honest and he can maintain his aggressive approach. I’d love to see him find a grip that works on the change as well, but that’s much harder to master. Just ask Phil Hughes.

  21. Brooklyn Ed says:

    The more I think about it, the more ingratiating to have Corban Joseph as the starting 3B, and move A-Rod to DH. Joseph’s bat could only take him far as his glove could. He could possily hit like Chase Utley. Knowing the Yanks, they would never have him skip Triple A to the majors.

    Note: I would had mention David Adams, but he still haven’t played a full season healthy yet since his ankle injury.

  22. Chip says:

    So now we can have a bench of Cervelli, Jones, Nunez, Pena and Betemit? I suppose we could replace either Pena or Betemit with either Dickerson or Maxwell. Either way, it’s gonna be an interesting bench

    • candyforstalin says:

      pena and betemit would cost 10m+. don’t see it happening. i’d be perfectly fine with betemit and dickerson.

  23. jussayin' says:

    Just look at how many times Cashpoor has been right about bringing in pitchers.

    His evaluation of pitchers frankly sucks.

    His development of pitchers frankly sucks.

    Yet we are supposed to think that this Pinata kid coming in, who had a great start, but sucked after that, is suddenly going to become some kind of ace?

    Where is the backup for this? Where is Cashpoor’s history for great pitching development and acquisitions?

    Pineda is a fly ball pitcher who only has two options. You don’t think that he will be lit up in the AL east?

    Compare that to Montero who did struggle against Lester (gee, on his first AB in the majors, no pressure there), yet got it together quickly despite the limited play he was given by the moron Girardi.

    Girardi helped push this BS trade. He can only see another catcher like himself. Meanwhile, how many championships were won when good to great hitting catchers were in pinstripes?

    But keep your pinstriped binders on, don’t look at where the glut of talent is, and is not.

    Right. Good and great hitters are a dime a dozen, yet how many do you see hit the market? Pujols and Prince? How often do you see pitchers being traded, yet teams hold on to the high level bats unless they are bottom feeders who can’t afford to keep them?

    Offense is what puts butts in the seats. Offense, not some young pitcher with two pitches, is what fills the stadiums.

    Which do you value more? A Price or a Bautista? Which ultimately will contribute more to winning games? A questionable pitcher or a good hitter?

    What about the WS this past season? Great pitching? Or great hitting?

    To win you need balance. To win you need offense over and above the pitching faced. You can keep a team to 1 run, yet lose the game if you don’t score a run.

    The Yankees built their teams to be offense oriented with good pitching, because you need to score runs to win.

    • JJ says:

      Pineda was 22 last year …. but ya glad to see you think the die is cast for his career and he has failed before he has even thrown a single pitch.

    • Mike Axisa says:

      “Cashpoor” doesn’t even make sense as an insult.

    • Bizzle says:

      Geez, would you stop being so friggin negative? We all get it, you don’t like the trade!! Too bad, it’s done. Plus all your arguments are to the effect that Montero is a can’t miss prospect & Pineda is a big “what if”. Both players have as much risk as the other…either could flame out or reach a plateau before reaching their potential. BUT the simple fact of the matter is neither one is a sure thing (even tho you like to think Montero is). The bottom line is you can’t expect to get back value without trading value.

    • Chip says:

      Look at it this way, the Yankees won 95 games last season with a poor rotation and a great offense. Now, they’ll be returning the exact same offense as they had next season but added two pitchers who are both better than all but one of the Yankees starters last season.

      Also, they now have a solid #1, #2 and #3/#4 (if you don’t believe in Nova) set in the rotation for the next 5 years. They seriously have 5 years of not worrying about the top of the rotation. They traded from a position of strength (catcher) to fill a hole (young, top of the line starters).

      And if you want to talk about WS, pitching won the Yankees a WS in 2009. Pitching is the reason that the Rays are a relevant team. Pitching is the reason Boston collapsed. Pitching is why the Yankees had a WS drough in the mid-aughts.

      The Yankees can always sign bats who typically peak in their late 20s to early 30s but they can’t sign top of the line young starters who typically peak in their mid 20s (CC is a freak of nature and we all know it)

      • forensic says:

        Well, they’re not returning the same offense. They’re returning an offense a year older who won’t get the same year from granderson and who actually now have a worse DH than last year, which is impressive considering how terrible posada was. Also, they didn’t end up with a poor rotation. They actually ended up with a solid rotation and I could easily see pineda and kuroda struggle to the point where they hurt the rotation compared to last year with all the league and park changes they’ll be enduring.

        • Chip says:

          I really don’t understand why you would think that Pineda and Kuroda could be worse than Hughes and Burnett last season. That’s just silly thinking right there.

          Also, who are you complaining about as the DH? If we gave it full time to Jones, it would be a huge improvement over Posada last season. In fact, we could have a great DH rotation if we platooned Jones and signed Betemit.

          I think it’s very convenient to start hating on Granderson all of a sudden but he’s been this good for a year and a half. At some point, like Jose Bautista turning into Frank Thomas, you just have to accept that he really is that good.

          Our offense is based around the hitting of Cano, Granderson and Swisher. Those guys are all good bets to be well above average to superstar level. I think you can even throw Tex in there as he is still superstar level against lefties and is only 2 years removed from overall MVP level of production and should still be in his prime. Sure A-Rod and Jeter are declining but the offense doesn’t revolve around them anymore yet they’re still above average hitters for their position.

          All of this doesn’t even get into the fact that the Yankees are actually a very good defensive team. They have one of the top three defensive outfields in the majors and might have the best defensive catcher currently in the league. Sure, Jeter is a statue out there but the rest of the infield is solid to gold glove. We saw in the postseason that A-Rod can still pick it and the right side is capable of winning both gold gloves.

          Overall, how can you complain about this team right now?

          • CJ says:

            That thinking is that Pineda Kuroda could underperform Bart colon Freddy Garcia statistically 2011. I think resigning Freddy was terrible then and it’s worse now.

          • forensic says:

            I think Garcia will step back a bunch and it’s not hard to imagine things going poorly for pineda and kuroda as they step back behind what Garcia and colon were.

            I want no part of betemit and jones was signed as the 4th ofer, not the DH. He’d be at a platoon disadvantage almost 75% of the time.

            How is saying granderson won’t be MVP level again hating on him? He still has some issues that can take down his numbers and slowed late in the season. It’s also been less than a year and a half, but close at least.

            Cano, while awesome, is always a threat for a low BA year, which would pull down all his other numbers to much lower levels. Swisher could also have down numbers if he gets thinking too much about the contract year. Tex I’m hopeful for but not overly optimistic. It’s a lot to expect. And jeter and a rod still bat at the top and middle of the lineup, so however much you want to believe it doesn’t revolve around them, it actually partly still does.

        • Bo Knows says:

          just go root for another team, especially since the yankees are doomed to relive the 80′s because they traded Montero. We get it you think Pineda will bust, but if you actually look at not only his minor league stats/scouting reports and LOOK AT HIS PERIPHERALS FOR EACH MONTH OF THE SEASON you will see a young pitcher who actually kept up a consistently good level of production while also upping his groundball rate.

          • forensic says:

            Oh good, at least the mature discussions are continuing. I never said anything even close to saying they’re doomed. I said I hoped/thought they could’ve gotten more for the combo of Montero and Noesi. And I never said pineda will bust, I just don’t think he’s an ace level (or hof pitcher as some have absurdly said) pitcher at this point with two pitches. I also admitted that I’m scarred by the organizations history with young pitchers, the failed development of hughes, and the downfall of Burnett as two examples of two pitch pitchers. I also admit I’m more worried about the offense than most and the fact that people are bringing up betemit and Matsui and Damon and posada and soriano as dh’s speaks loudly to the fact that finding a good DH isn’t as easy as people are making it out to be. Though many teams, Yankees included, have insanely punted it at times with largely non hitters doesn’t mean it’s not a big deal. The name is ‘designated hitter’, not ‘designated old former Yankee who can’t hit anymore’.

      • Kevin Winters says:

        The Yankees can always sign bats who typically peak in their late 20s to early 30s


        such as?

        • Chip says:

          Texeira, Fielder, Pujols, Beltran, Sheffield, Guerrero, Damon, Manny, Bonds, Beltre, Reyes, Crawford (ok he sucked last year but was a stud up to that point and is still young), A-Rod, Andruw Jones, Scott Rolen, Jim Thome, Giambi, ect

          Those are huge bats the the Yankees COULD have signed over the last 10 or so years that would have cost them just money. I’m talking about MVP-type bats here. And those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

    • Jumpin' Jack Swisher says:

      I’ve tried to engage you, as someone who was quite negative as well on this trade yesterday, but you clearly seem more interested in trolling.

    • Landry says:

      Are you still upset Cashman dumped you on prom night?

  24. MannyB ace2be says:

    I think Campos ends up better than Pineda anyone read about his 2 hit 6 1/3 inning perfect game? We got 2 studs back and now have crazy depth in case Hughes doesn’t bounce back and Burnett is garbage and Freddy/Nova don’t replicate 2011. Yes I loved Montero but his bat wouldn’t save the yanks if the rotation shit the bed in 2012 – everyone saying they hate this trade will be asking for Cashmans head next season if the pitching is horrible and he didn’t “trade for Gio or danks or garza”

  25. LiterallyFigurative says:

    You’ve got to give something to get something, so moving a 21 year old hitting prospect who may be a Jorge Posada, Victor Martinez for a #1 or #2 type, 22 year old who already has pitched in MLB is a fair trade.

    Both teams get what they wanted. Stop trying to fleece everyone!

    I don’t think the Yanks have to have a big DH. I would actually look for an outfielder/DH who bats lefty (JD Drew?). Swisher could DH on certain days, A-Rod some days, Jeter, Andruw Jones. Personally, I’d like a speed option to play outfield.

  26. The Manchine says:

    Mike, what would Dom Brown cost ya think?

    • JJ says:

      I don’t see a trade working out. The Phillies are stocked with pitching, and in desperate need of hitting. Most of our top level prospects are pitchers, something the phillies don’t need at the moment.

      • The Manchine says:

        They have pitching in the bigs, but isn’t their system sorta empty after the Pence & Oswalt trades? They sent Lee to Seattle because they needed prospects (and got crappy ones).

        • JJ says:

          That’s certainly true, but if they move Dom, then the hitting in their system is really empty. My logic simply stems from the fact that their largest strength is their rotation, biggest weakness is their lineup, so if they had to make a move, they would do something to add hitting. Then again, you really never know with Amaro Jr.

      • Bizzle says:

        Not totally true…if they lose Hamels to FA next year, they need good young pitchers to develop. They don’t have anybody above High-A ball worth a damn right now (Cosart is 3-4yrs away).

        • JJ says:

          They have Worley, who is essentially their version of Nova. While it’s true that their system lacks higher level pitching prospects, but if they move Dom then their system would be devoid of hitting prospects. I guess it comes down to, would they rather acquire pitchers at the expense of hitting, or hitting at the expense of pitching, but cause it certainly seems unlikely that they could shore up both areas.

    • Bizzle says:

      The Phils have really soured on his potential (look at his playing time last year), so I wouldn’t give the world for him anymore. I like him & have seen him play numerous times throughout his minor league career, but he is definitely still a work in progress….more athlete than ball player right now.

  27. Rookie says:

    This deal had to be based almost entirely on the Yankees’ evaluation of Pineda’s potential based on their eyeballs and evaluation of his “stuff” because there’s not enough stats to form any kind of intelligent opinion.

    In the minors, he only pitched 77 innings in AA (to a 2.22 ERA in 2010) and, 62 innings in AAA (to a 4.76 ERA also in 2010). And his only year in the majors was 2011 when he pitched well in the very spacious, friendly confines of Safeco Field (to a 2.92 ERA and dominated teams with a losing record (holding them to 1.95 runs per nine innings and a .916 WHIP) but was mediocre away from Safeco Field (with a 4.40 ERA) and putrid against teams with a winning record (allowing 5.42 runs per nine innings and a 1.273 WHIP).

    So if the Yankees’ talent evaluation is on the mark, it could be golden. And I’ll give Cashman the benefit of the doubt for now. But I would have thought that Montero could have garnered much more of a sure thing in trade with little or no leap of faith required.

    • The Manchine says:

      Don’t bother to factor in 5 years of team control, whereas “established” SP are either expensive or VERY close to being so.

      Baseball is MUCH more than JUST stats. Especially when talking about a 22yo hitter and a 23yo pitcher.

    • Chip says:

      Stop using ERA, you’re talking about a half season worth of starts away from Safeco and his peripherals were better on the road. Name to me another 22 year old who strikes out a batter per inning while walking less than 3 per 9IP.

      Last year, across the entire league, there were only 5 such pitchers. Greinke, Kershaw, Anibal Sanchez, Lee and Pineda. I’ll even give you Gallardo and Verlander as they were both pretty close.

      Those 7 pitchers have a combined for 4 Cy Young awards in the past 4 years.

    • j says:

      Thats all makes sense, except for how Pineda actually pitched better on the road last year (3.26 FIP away, 3.62 home).

      • Rookie says:

        Very interesting points, j.

        I said that I’d give Cashman the benefit of the doubt. And I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt, too. And it appears that you’re backed up by the folks at FanGraphs.com:


        I just don’t think there’s very much in the way of stats that is outside the realm of small sample size to substantiate the conclusion that Pineda has pitched like the stud that so many seem to be making him out to be. But obviously you, Dave Cameron, the Yankee braintrust, and other statheads think otherwise. I hope you’re right.

        You probably are. Again, other things being equal, I generally assume that Cashman is much more likely to be right than I am.

  28. Rookie says:

    I am thrilled, though, that the Yankees didn’t empty the farm system for the privilege of paying King Felix $20 million a year.

    • Dave203 says:

      I don’t think those rumors were legit and in play. I still think the Yanks would have pulled the trigger on any Felix deal – ever with him making 18.5-20 million the next 3 yrs. He is good enough for that money, but it would create problems for the 2014 budget.

    • Steve S. says:

      I still can’t figure out why Jack Z didn’t go for that deal if he was going to trade a starter for offense. He could have plugged 3-4 holes with one deal, and kept a pitcher with top of rotation ability in Pineda.

  29. Pam says:

    I’m certainly not a pitching coach but is anyone else a little concerned about Pineda’s delivery? He falls off the mound somewhat awkwardly, although I guess this is quite normal for a pitcher his size. Still, I’m a bit worried about his injury risk.

  30. Rich in NJ says:

    It still sucks.

  31. Robert says:

    What about Vlad Guerrero? He’s old but he’s only one year removed from a .300/.345/.496 season. Last year he was pretty bad but I would think he is at least worth looking into.

    • Dave203 says:

      Problem is he can’t play a position. We really don’t need someone who is just a permanent DH. We need someone that we can rotate into the field to give people rest. The only bench help we don’t have is 1B unless we are moving Swish to 1st for Tex’s rest day. I think they’d like a better option than Swish for 1B on Tex rest days.

  32. Dropped Third says:

    Does anyone besides me still feel like actually hung over from all the thinking and reading and just overall shockedness of yesterday? I literally feel mentally fucked lol

  33. forensic says:

    Rapidly competing for the worst part of this trade? All the clamoring for reunions with just the old, terrible former Yankees: Damon, Matsui, posada, and even soriano…

  34. Dave203 says:

    Since so many people seem to just want to tear apart Pineda’s ROOKIE season, let’s just compare rookie season for amusement sake:

    Tim Lincecum
    2007: 7-5, 4.00 ERA, 2.0 WAR (140 innings)

    Felix Hernandez
    2005: 4-4, 2.67 ERA, 2.9 WAR (84.1 innings)
    2006: 12-14, 4.52 ERA, 1.7 WAR (191 innings)

    CC Sabathia
    2001: 17-5, 4.39 ERA, 2.7 WAR (180.1 innings)

    Clayton Kershaw
    2008: 5-5, 4.26 ERA, 1.2 WAR (107.2 innings)

    Cliff Lee
    2005: 14-8, 5.43 ERA, 2.3 WAR (179 innings)

    I’m bored already so I’ll stop there. Compared to Pineda:
    2011: 9-10, 3.74 ERA, 2.8 WAR (178 innings)

    Good think everyone didn’t count Lincecum/King Felix/CC/Kershaw/Lee out after their “terrible” rookie seasons. Pineda has the best WAR in his rookie season on the list, yet Pineda continues to get bashed. Hilarious!

    • TCMiller30 says:

      Lee was actually sent back down to the minors eventually so they kind of in a way did count him out.. he got a second chance.. Give Joba his due!! He could be the next Cliff Lee!

    • CJ says:

      Thanks. Good post. Nice visual.

    • Steve S. says:

      Check out Greg Maddux debut in Chicago.

    • Electrifying MC says:

      See, I was doing the exact same thing today. IMO, i’m glad the Yanks traded Montero for Pineda and not for Gio Gonzalez or Mat Latos. Plus, that contract is absurd.

    • nycsportzfan says:

      I think the reason people are a bit skeptical about Pineda because of who pienda pitched good against(weak teams for most part) and who he pitched bad against(good teams for most part) and the fact Jesus montero is just so freaking close to a sure thing for a team that has alot of aging bats and bats that don’t hit like they used 2.. No one thinks Pineda dosen’t have a ridiculous upside its just u gotta worry a bit when talking about a guy in Jesus who projects to about a 315ba 30hr 120rbi guy and is super young on a team filled with Streaky power hitters whos avg’s are very mediocre.. All that said i’m just trying to give u a idea of what people might be worried about.. Pineda has num 1 starter potential and lets hope he hits on that potential becuase Jesus is gonna

  35. tyrone sharpton says:

    Love diversity on Yankee staff. One black, one yellow, two hispanics and hopefully 1 white. Woulda wanted EJac(ulation) over Kuroda, but this is good for stopgap option

  36. Frank says:

    you have to put CC, Pineda, Kuroda, and Nova in the rotation in some order. that leaves Garcia, Hughes, and Burnett for the 5th spot. i would think it makes the most sense to dump Burnett’s contract, Hughes to the ‘pen, and Garcia for the 5th spot.

    i dont know how you could just sign garcia for 5mil, and then make him a long reliever. Hughes can try to get his mojo back in the pen, and be ready if anyone gets hurt. and burnett just doesnt fit it: i think fans would freak if we get another 200ip of 5 era from him.

  37. Frank says:

    you have to put CC, Pineda, Kuroda, and Nova in the rotation in some order. that leaves Garcia, Hughes, and Burnett for the 5th spot. i dont know how you could just sign garcia for 5mil, and then make him a long reliever. Hughes can try to get his mojo back in the pen, and be ready if anyone gets hurt. and burnett just doesnt fit in: i think fans would freak if we get another 200ip of 5 era from him. the writing is on the wall… Burnett is gone.

  38. Robert says:

    I don’t think this was a Cashman move ,it looks like a ownership move.i don’t think they want to pay Cole Hamels .

  39. Countryclub says:

    This won’t change anybody’s opinion in here, but I’m glad to see all the positive reaction that’s out there. Sherman, buster, heyman, etc… They all say that every gm, scout, exec that they talk to loves this deal for NY

  40. Andrew 518 says:

    Pretty funny to see the disparity between the jumping off the cliff nature of many of the comments over the last day and the overall positive feedback results of the poll…

    not in the least bit suprising (Al Gore invented the internet for reactionary alarmism) but amusing nonetheless.

  41. Eirias says:

    So, Montero is BA’s #3 prospect. What would his ranking be if it were absolutely known that he cannot catch at the Major League level? I’m simply curious.

    • JohnnyC says:

      The ranking already incorporates that suspicion. Most scouts believe he’s a full-time DH (or 1st baseman at best). The rank is all based on his hit tool.

  42. CJ says:

    Trade Robertson-trumbo
    Trade swisher
    Sign prince

  43. DZ says:

    My biggest question is now do we go after hamels next off season. If Hughes bounces back, to like a 3.70 era, imagine this 2013 rotation.


    That’s easily the best in baseball and absolutely filthy.

    • Chip says:

      Exactly. And if we don’t get him, we can look at Cain/Sanchez/ect to fill out that spot. We have a ton of things we can do now that we have the number 1 and 2 spots locked up.

      • Robert says:

        I get the feeling that ownership is about to cut payroll alot.We have heard for mouths about getting under 189 million.Now they can say there is no reason to go after Hamels next year.

        • Chip says:

          The thing is, if you have three guys in the rotation making the minimum (say for example Pineda, Nova and Banuelos) then you can afford to give Hamels 22 million a year and still get under 189 million

          • Robert says:

            We think it is 189 million but maybe they want to go as low as possible ,before fans start to complain.

            • Chip says:

              I think they’ll get just under the 189 million mark in 2014 and go big in 2015

              Completely irrational look at possible free agents that year: Pablo Sandoval, Yovani Gallardo, Rickie Weeks, Jason Motte, Pedro Alvarez, Vernon Wells (may not be serious), James Shields, Colby Rasmus, Jon Lester, Justin Verlander, Max Scherzer, Elvis Andrus, Matt Harrison, King Felix, and my favorite: Clayton Kershaw

              Yes, I know that some will be extended, ect but I don’t care. I think that’s their plan

          • Chip says:

            And just to further make this point, Rivera (15M), Burnett (16.5M), Soriano (12M), Swisher (10ishM) Hughes (?M), Joba (?M) will all be gone. Jeter won’t cost as much against the cap as his option will bring down the AAV of his contract. Sure we could bring guys like Hughes, Joba and Swisher back but the point is that we’ll have a ton of money coming off the books and really the only place that we could be left significantly wanting is in the bullpen. Of course, we’ve seen the Yankees do a masterful job of filling bullpens spots on the cheap in the last few years.

            • Robert says:

              Cano will want 25 million,Granderson will get 20+ million add on that a closer for over 10+,and a SS and RF.

              • Robert says:

                Lets face it with Pineda ownership will say that he is a young “star” and that there is no reason to go after Hamels and spend the money.

              • Chip says:

                Yeah, I could see Cano getting something like 22M a year but I’m not sure that they’ll sign Granderson. I think a lot of it depends on what they see out of Mason Williams in the next two years. Also, I’m not sure that they’ll let Soriano close for a season and then have Robertson do it. That way, Robertson won’t get big arb raises due to lack of saves.

                I’m not saying that they WILL do it, but there is a good chance that they might now with two big cost controlled pieces in the rotation.

          • Dave203 says:

            I don’t think you can afford Hammels if you plan on keeping Granderson and Cano. Both will require market extensions in 2014 and those a big pay raises.

        • Robert says:

          Wouldn’t you rather have Pineda on the cheap for the next five seasons than Hamels at that price?

    • Monterowasdinero says:

      But for now we have a:


      That’sa quite a staffa!

  44. Grit for Brains says:

    Get Chavez back to NY please

  45. China Joe says:

    I really enjoyed that Pineda video…that was a lot of 94-97 heat on the black.

    How many starting pitchers on earth can throw that hard with that command?

  46. Kevin G. says:

    Not to sound like I’m whining or complaining, but whatever happened to editing comments, the little indicator that showed unread comments, the number that showed how popular a post was and the list of the top ten or so posts in RAB history?

  47. Bo Knows says:

    really nice article on fangraphs about our newest pitcher, everyone should read this:


    • Preston says:

      I especially liked seeing that his GB% went up every month. If he could generate a healthy amount of GBs he will be nearly unstoppable.

      • CP says:

        He was better than league average in terms of ground balls during his minor league career. Basically, the only time he was a fly ball pitcher was the first half of 2011.

  48. Avi says:

    I hate the Montero trade and I’ll give a lot of reasons why.
    But Please sign Prince Fielder!
    5 years $100M

  49. Avi says:

    If you were starting a franshise today, woukd you take Pineda or Montero?
    To me that’s the only thing that should dictate which player you prefer and not immediate need.

    • Avi says:

      Sorry about the typos and sloppy spelling. Just found out about the Montero trade and I’m very worked up, in a bad way.

    • Steve S. says:

      Even if you have nowhere to play him and he loses a ton a value as your DH?

    • bonestock94 says:

      You probably want a lower risk player, the batter. But the Yankees aren’t starting a franchise, they already have arguably the best offense in the game and can afford to trade away a top hitting prospect to address a major weakness.

      • Mattchu12 says:


        Yes, the Yankees need some young cheap offense in the coming years, but the truth is that as much as I love Montero and miss him terribly, he was a DH. He wasn’t going to be a catcher, and Teix is at first base. The trade just makes sense for us.

      • Dave203 says:

        Exactly. Hypothosize as you please, but we’re aren’t starting a new franchise so the situation doesn’t apply. We have hitting and needed pitching right now. Everyone can quote we don’t have young hitting for down the road, but nothing stops them from either buying hitting or trading one of the many pitching prospects we STILL have. That was the best part of this deal IMO is that is didn’t take Montero PLUS ManBam or Betances. Noesi was dealt, but I think the ceiling is higher on ManBam/Betances.

    • The Manchine says:

      If you were starting a franshise today, woukd you take Pineda or Montero?
      To me that’s the only thing that should dictate which player you prefer and not immediate need.

      This isn’t fantasy baseball or a video game.

      Established players/contracts factor into things. As does DEFENSE.

  50. Mike Axisa says:

    This game sure has been fun.

  51. Tom Zig says:

    Signing Carlos Pena makes almost too much sense.

  52. dkidd says:

    let’s go, niners

    i want overtime

  53. Reggie C. says:

    Vernon Davis couldnt do this during the regular season to help my team out ???

    Go niners.

  54. Reggie C. says:


  55. Steve S. says:

    What a game. Damn.

  56. Stratman9652 says:

    I still prefer this trade to giving up anything resembling what Kenny Williams wanted for John Danks.

    • Electrifying MC says:

      Or what Billy wanted for Gio

      Or o’Dowd for Jimenez

      Compared to what everyone else payed for young studs, the Yankees got the steal of a lifetime

  57. dkidd says:

    david weeping as he runs off the field is why sports is awesome

    • dkidd says:

      davis, although david was probably weeping as well

    • Dave203 says:

      He was WAYYYY to emotional IMO. Those weren’t tears of joy, that was straight up weaping — it was like someone died. I have no issue with men crying, but keep it reasonable please…

  58. dkidd says:

    my take on the trade:

    ballsy, risky move by both sides

    pineda is less projectable, but plays a position of (much) more need

    comes down to how much faith you have in eppler and his staff. i have a bucketload

  59. JMK says:

    As a disclaimer, I’ll say upfront that I’m really supportive of this trade. Aside from health concerns related to Pinedo’s slider (he missed much of ’09 with an elbow strain) and the hope that he’d develop a viable third offering, there’s been much talk of his high flyball rate.

    It’s basically been reported as fact that he’s a major flyball pitcher moving to YSIII. His final line from his rookie season indicate such, but those numbers are not in line with his minor league stats and a solid chunk of 2011. Let’s take a look:


    2006: 1.14 (20 IP)
    2007: 1.38 (59 IP)
    2008: 1.33 (138 IP)
    2009: 1.69 (59 IP)
    2010: 1.02 (139 IP)
    2011: 0.72 (171 IP)

    The last two years may suggest the trend is in fact that he’s become a flyball pitcher. But the last two months of 2011 – August and September – showed far higher groundball rates, checking in at 1.38 and 1.14, respectively.

    What I’m saying is we’re hearing that he’s a flat-out guaranteed flyball pitcher when I’m not sure that’s true.

    MiLB stats: http://web.minorleaguebaseball.....pid=501381

    MLB stats: http://www.fangraphs.com/stats.....eason=2011

    • Mike Axisa says:

      I wouldn’t read too much into minor league ground ball rates, any pitching prospect worth a damn will have a high ground ball rate in the minors, especially one with a big fastball. Hughes had ground ball rates north of 60% in the minors.

      Pineda’s a fly ball guy because he pitches up in the zone with his fastball, he just has to get downhill a little more to keep the ball on the ground. That’s not easy to do when you’re a) 6-foot-7, and b) just cutting your teeth in the bigs.

  60. Reggie C. says:

    The second game of the night is turning into a disappointment. C’mon Tebow .. make NE sweat some!

  61. August says:

    Maybe it is a fair trade, but I really do not like it.

    When Yankees are losing what keeps my interest is watching how players like Cano, Gardner and so on develop. Montero was next on that list and Nova and DRob were last year. Pineda has high upside but its a pretty big gamble.. always stuff you don’t know as a fan though… maybe Montero is an a-hole.

    • Monterowasdinero says:

      Don’t think he is an asshole. I think his laid back and easy going nature may have bothered the coaches who were working with him behind the plate. He isn’t a fiery fist pumper back there. It is really a question of putting up with some defensive shortcomings (as in Posada and Piazza) vs his mega bat. The Yanks and Girardi (yes you Joe Binder) preferred the pitching to a Jorge Piazza type catcher.

      • August says:

        Yea well in that case trade still sucks. I think most of us were fond of him. It only makes sense to me if they really can’t afford a pitcher next offseason.. which if true sucks anyway.

      • Mattchu12 says:

        I think it was more that they didn’t think he could be acceptable as a defender behind the plate and first base is occupied by Teix. That makes him a DH until Teix’s contract is done, and you have to trade him for that arm. You just do.

    • Rainbow Connection says:

      Solution: Watch Pineda this year.

  62. Reggie C. says:

    But can Tebow convert …

  63. Any channce Mo teaches him to throw a cut fastball?

  64. kevin says:

    what does everyone think about garrett jones for the lh dh role. good power, soild onbase(.345obp with 14hr vs rhp). jd drew could also be a cheap free agent to look at for the role.

  65. JobaWockeeZ says:

    So are we going to sign Martin to a long term deal? Romine’s bat will at best be Martin. His defense won’t come close. Give Martin 2 or 3 years until Sanchez becomes the elite prospect so we can trade him then.

    • The Manchine says:

      2 or 3 years until Sanchez becomes the elite prospect so we can trade him then.

      I realize (hope) you’re being sarcastic.
      I think Sanchez is part of the reason Cashman felt Jesus was expendable.

      • Brian S. says:

        All prospects are expendable to Cashman. Just stop following them they will never get a chance.

        • Monterowasdinero says:

          After getting attached to AJax and Montero, ain’t gonna do that again. I liked the Granderson trade because of his power and YS rf porch. Not as happy about this trade. Yanks would have been fine with Kuroda and Montero.

          • Brian S. says:

            Glad I’m not the only one who thinks so. I hope Seattle allows him to catch and he proves everyone wrong.

            • Mattchu12 says:

              Well, that would be the only way this trade would be a mistake because the reason he was traded was because he can’t catch or play first base on this team, and you trade a DH for 1/2 potential every time.

        • Mattchu12 says:

          That Cano kid turned out okay, same with Gardner and Robertson, and isn’t there a kid named Nova who was pretty good last year?

        • Steve S. says:

          Nova, Cano, Wang, D-Rob, Joba, Hughes, Gardner, Cervelli.

          From the old school Jetes, Mo, Posada, Pettitte

      • JobaWockeeZ says:

        While I was being sarcastic I don’t have faith in any position player prospect getting a shot in the organization unless it’s literally impossible to find someone better.

        • whozat says:

          Brett Gardner. It was LITERALLY impossible to find a left fielder? Bull. They gave him a full-time job because he showed elite defense and an ability to get on base and steal bags in part time work the previous year. That’s how prospects earn their way to the bigs.

      • JAG says:

        Am I the only one who thought he meant “so we can trade Martin then?”

  66. Moboy says:

    What do you do about Cano after 2013 when he’s 31 years old. When I look at Chase Utley now and what happened to all the great second basemen of the past like Alomar it makes me think Cano will flop after 32.

    He now has Scott Boras as a client and will ask for a 6-8 year deal.It makes you wonder about all these young guys you will have to get rid of to get under that $189 budget.

  67. Mantle's Thirsty says:

    When filling out the bench, doesn’t it make more sense to use Nunez as the backup infielder and have Ramiro run out the baseballs to the umps or something – he’s a waste of a roster space

  68. NapLajoieonSteroids says:

    It is a fair trade which perspicaciously takes into account that the Yankee offense, as constructed, has only a few more years tops before it has to be rebuilt. Montero and dinosaurs coupled with mediocre to decent pitching wouldn’t be a very competitive.

    Pineda can act as both as a transition piece (he is a decent pitcher now) and future ace (with his ceiling) to help the Yankees remain competitive as they go about rebuilding their offense in the nearing future.

  69. Avi says:

    Who has a better chance to be a Hall of Famer, Montero or Pineda?

  70. Avi says:

    Burnett for Adam Dunn makes a lot of sense.
    Burnett: 2 years, $33M remaining
    Dunn: 3 years, $44M remaining
    Might be able to get the White Sox to make the money the same. After all Burnett wasn’t historically bad like Dunn was.

  71. Brian S. says:

    Love the Kuroda signing, hate the Montero trade. I know we got a good deal but Montero was arguably my favorite player on the team. I also think he will be more valuable than Pineda down the road. Fuck you Cashman.

    • Monterowasdinero says:

      If Kuroda was signed first and we had a few days to digest it, I think Yanks getting rid of Montero would have been even more of a surprise and even harder to take.

      • Brian S. says:

        Either way would have pissed me off. Right after I started reacting to the trade I found out about Kuroda and was like “THEN WHAT WAS THE FUCKING POINT!!1!” It has ruined my entire weekend.

        • Mattchu12 says:

          To get young, high-end, cost controlled pitching in exchange for a player that would be wasted at DH on our team? It’s obvious that they didn’t think he could catch, and with Teix on first, you have to trade him here.

        • Monterowasdinero says:

          Arguably the most important ab of the season was Martin popping out with one out and the bases loaded in our last playoff game. Ironic.

  72. Jesse says:

    Gee, this Brady fellow is pretty good, no? Why weren’t they talking about him all week, but they talked about Tebow???

  73. JM says:

    Exact quote from a friend today: “No-Hitters are the most boring things ever. It’s literally two guys playing catch”. :(

  74. Jamey says:

    I swear Bill Madden was born to be a Red Sox beat writer. http://www.nydailynews.com/spo.....-1.1006298 That just wreaks of one of the columns a Boston writer would do after a Sox’ trade, burying the former “overhyped” prospect that they themselves probably spent a good deal of time hyping.

  75. Ryan says:

    First public trade proposal….. Hughs and Nunez to pirates for Pedro Alverez, Arod to DH. Sign Omar Vizquel for bench. What do you guys think?

    • Mattchu12 says:

      A-Rod needs to stay at 3B as long as he can to maximize his value.

      • emac2 says:

        Isn’t the team better with Arod at DH and a better defender at 3rd base if the option is Arod at third and a scrub at DH?

        I think if you can move Arod by getting a 3b with a better glove then Arod and a better bat then whoever we would get to DH you should do it.

        It’s better to maximize the Career of a player under contract instead of maximizing his fantasy value. Letting Arod DH means he probably hits better this year and every year under contract.

    • Landry says:

      I’d rather see Nunez than Alverez at 3rd.

  76. August says:

    I will offer this one positive remark. Between trading for Pineda or Garza I would take Pineda.

    • Mattchu12 says:

      And between the idea of giving up Montero + Man-Ban/Betances/Nova like it would have taken for any of the other young starters traded, I would take Pineda.

  77. Avi says:

    I hope the Yankees find that Pineda’s rotator cuff is all torn up in his physical. Return the Cliff Lee favor to them – NO DEAL!

  78. Avi says:

    Which team has the greater chance of this trade being a total bust for them?

    • Dave203 says:

      Stupid question since the chances of that happening for either team is almost zero. We know you don’t like the trade, you can move on now.

    • Mike Axisa says:

      The team that didn’t get the guy who’s shown he can be an above-average contributor over a full big league season.

      • Avi says:

        Risk factor:
        Pitchers >>>>>>>>> Hitters

      • Avi says:

        Mike, I get it that Pineda is a more proven MLB commodity than Montero. But don’t make it like you like this trade. You from last night’s open thread when this was just beginning to break:
        JobaWockeeZ says:
        January 13, 2012 at 7:07 pm
        Let the baseless Montero to Felix rumors begin.
        Mike Axisa says:
        January 13, 2012 at 7:09 pm
        I’m terrified that it’s Montero for Pineda.”

        You would never have done this trade. Let’s not make it all rosy now that it’s done.

        • Avi says:

          Especially after signing Kuroda, I don’t see why the Yankees ran to trade their best power hitting prospect since Mantle for a starter.

          • Mike Axisa says:

            Since Mantle? That’s hyperbole at it’s finest.

            I don’t love the trade, but I’m also not butthurt over it. They got a pretty good pitcher in return, and frankly they needed that a lot more than they needed a DH.

          • Reggie C. says:

            Oh c’mon Avi. Trust me, you’ll wake up in the morning feeling alittle better about the trade.

            Kuroda was always going to be a one-year solution. Cashman was going to need to fill a couple rotation spots (at a minimum) after 2012 anyway. Pineda and his cheap salary allows Cashman to navigate next season’s FA market with greater ease, and, most importantly (imo) keeps the farm from getting gutted at the 2012 trading deadline. Pineda has shown he can perform at a high-level. Lets be confident and project similar success in 2012. The kid is very good right now and he’s only 23.

    • Landry says:

      You’re really desperate for someone to validate your hurt feelings.

      • Avi says:

        Excuse me for hating losing Montero for the marginal upgrade of 25 starts made by Pineda instead of Freddy Garcia.

        • pat says:

          You’re saying Pineda is only a marginal upgrade over Freddy Garcia?

          • Avi says:

            Yes. How many more games are the Yankees gonna win because of 25 starts made by Pineda over the better of Garcia/Hughes?

            • Mike Axisa says:

              Seriously? It could be a quite a few, could be none. It’s part of the risk involved.

              Pineda just threw 170+ IP with 9+ K/9 and <3 BB/9 in the American League as a 22-year-old. If he’d been a Yankees prospect and done that, we’d have him in Cooperstown already.

          • Avi says:

            For what it’s worth Garcia had a better ERA than Pineda in a much smaller ballpark and much stronger division.

            • Mike Axisa says:

              His ERA was 0.12 runs better. That’s a difference of one earned run every 75 IP. That’s a hometown official scorer calling an error a hit once every 10-11 starts. Negligible difference.

    • Steve S. says:

      With the secondary pieces we won’t know that for many years. Noesi could be solid and compensate for Montero ending up at DH. Campos could be a front line pitcher who makes up for Pineda under performing or getting hurt. And teams could figure out Montero doesn’t walk enough and start giving him a steady diet of crap to the point where he hits 12 HRs and bats .225.

      Risk and reward on both sides, that’s what makes it a fair deal.

  79. JobaWockeeZ says:

    Montero + Banuelos for Ubaldo, or Montero + Noesi for Pineda + Campos? Can’t use hindsight for Ubaldo.

    • Avi says:

      I didn’t like Ubaldo based on his high BB rate at the time he was traded. So I’ll take Pineda even if you take out the Banuelos part.

    • Mattchu12 says:

      It’s easily Pineda without even having to factor a the other pieces because Ubaldo’s walk rate was always high, his strikeout rate was never as high as Pineda’s, his delivery looks painfully violent, and you’re talking about an NL pitcher vs. and AL pitcher. Plus, between Pineda’s youth and cost controlled future? It’s a no-brainer for me.

    • Steve S. says:

      I was dead wrong on Ubaldo. Reminded me to trust the Yankee scouts (read that Billy Eppler) a bit more.

  80. DR says:

    Does anyone think there will be a press conference for any/both of these moves?

  81. Howard Cosell says:



    Mariners get more power and a good fielder. And dont have to worry about a bad playoff performance.

    Yankees get a savvy clutch veteran that balances their softball lineup and ad another speedster to balance the lineup. This will come in handy in the playoffs when A-Rod and Tex go into their postseason funks.

    Defensively he is a wash with Swisher. End of Season he becomes a free agent like Swisher and the Yankees can either move on or resign him.

    Downsize for Yankees – is Ichiro’s contract but its on for this year…

    Oh and those Japanese companies in NYC would love to get corporate season tickets.

    What do you think?


  82. pat says:

    I take it the Yankees must think Pineda is capable of, or already possesses a better change than he has shown. They know their stadium, they know their competition, gotta think the Yanks weren’t gonna trade Montero for a guy they think is going to be a 2 pitch pitcher for the rest of his career.

    At least I hope.

    • Rainbow Connection says:

      Get ahold of yourself.

    • CMP says:

      Pineda was a 3.4 WAR starter as a 22 year old rookie with those 2 pitches. The only full time DH’s to surpass that was Ortiz who had wOBA of .405. If Pineda shows no improvement and simply repeats his season from last year, I’d bet he’ll be more valuable than Montero.

      It amazes me how so many people have Montero pegged as the next Miguel Cabrera and Pineda as the next AJ Burnett (Yankee version that is).

      • pat says:

        Hey, I’m not knocking his accomplishments at all nor am I pegging him as the next AJ. Eventually most but the very best 2 pitch pitchers get figured out to an extent. I would just hope/prefer that he has a reliable 3rd pitch to keep RHB off balance rather than hope he’s one of the very few guys who can have sustained success as a starter with just a FB/Slider. IMO Montero was that much of a sure thing that they wouldn’t have flipped him if they didn’t think Pineda had a pretty good change or curve in his pocket.

        • MannyGeee says:

          They thought that if u get a 22 yo pitcher, it might be easier to teach him to throw a change up than what its been to teach Montero to catch?

        • Steve S. says:

          I agree, but he’s 23 years old. To do what he has at his age shows a talent level far beyond most of his peers, and frankly anyone the Yanks currently have in their system. I trust he will add a serviceable 3rd pitch, preferably one that keeps lefties honest.

  83. Bronx Byte says:

    For the time being the 40-man roster won’t need to change. Pineda and Kuroda replace Montero and Noesi. Whether Juan Campos is put on the 40-man remains to be seen.
    At least 1 of the Rule 5 pickups plus Kevin Whelan will open up spots. No need for Cashman to worry about space.

  84. Avi says:

    Chances Hughes starts the season in the bullpen?
    Can’t you just hear the sound bytes now: “Well Hughesey has pitched out of the pen before. He’s accustomed to it. We felt it was a better fit than putting Freddy out there.”

    • MannyGeee says:

      Bet cha he is working out like a muthafucka right now… He comes in husky, he may go to Pittsburg for a LOOGY or something

    • Steve S. says:

      I think they’ll have another one of those “Spring Training Competitions” we all love between him and Garcia, and see who wins the job. I have to think AJ will be traded before they break camp. Phil will need to look great to land that #5 gig. We all know what Freddy did last year, and it’s a pretty high bar considering what Phil has done as a starter for the vast majority of his Yankee career.

      If I had to bet, Phil winds up in the bullpen. I know for a fact that Gene Michael has been arguing for it for some time now. If he does, I have no problem with it. I’ve seen enough of him in the rotation for the past 5 years.

  85. Granderslam says:

    I feel as if the Yankees have some sort of “move” in the works to solve the pitcher logjam. I don’t think they would have acquired BOTH Pineda AND Kuroda if that meant leaving three men to one available pitching role. We’ll see. Bad contract-for-Bad contract swap would be satisfying since I’m not ready to give up on Hughes just yet, but with all that depth, one has to wonder if a deal can be made for their own “young impact bat”…or just a bat in general. If not, there’s always Pena, I guess.

  86. dela g says:

    after thinking about it for a night, I love this trade

  87. Avi says:

    The Yanks need to ad a DH, even if it’s just a Damon type (Pena would be my preference). Andruw will be more than fine against lefties but Vs. righties, Martin, Jeter, Chavez/Nunez = Black Hole.

  88. Tom says:

    The other aspect of this trade is that next offseason the likelihood of the “Yankee tax” being applied to every big name pitcher has probably lessened and once again Cashman will likely be able to be patient and wait the market out (or do a stealth signing).

    I know some didn’t like the Garcia signing, but it allowed the Yankees to walk away from trades where people were asking for the moon (Danks, Gio, probably Garza now) or FA’s that wanted an extra couple of mil in Yankee dollars. I think when people see an open spot on the Yankees they just assume desperation and start asking for more (money, years, prospects) since it’s the Yankees.

    I think if they don’t do any overpays in the pen the 189mil target in 2014 is now achievable without massive amounts of pain. They were 23 mil off that this year and will clear Mo, Soriano, AJ’s money (roughly 45mil) and while Cano and possibly Granderson will get significant raises if they keep both, and there will be arbitration raises along the way, they don’t need to go ultra cheap in say RF or go ultra cheap at catcher or 3rd (if ARod moves to DH)

  89. Avi says:

    Pineda threw just 183 minor league innings above low class A(over two seasons).
    #Risk factor

  90. Fin says:

    I love the trade. I was pretty convinced that Montero was never going to catch for the Yankees, even as a backup and therefore, was going to get traded. My main concern was they would end up trading him for a mid rotation guy disguised as a top of the rotation guy. A Jimenez, Garza, Danks type guy. Now currently it could be argued that those guys are as good or better than Pineda, but the upside of Pineda is fantastic. I like the risk the Yankees took with this trade. I love a young power pitcher with control.

    THe reasons I think the risk is worth is that the Yankees didnt give up their 2 top pitching prospects, and infact added another top pitching prospect who may be a better prospect than the 2 B’s. That I feel limits the risk, if he should flame out, the Yankees still have replacements comming, and if he succeedes, they can turn around and use some pitching prospects to get a hitter. THe main reason I like the risk is that alot of pitchers best years seem to be before the age of 30 and power pitchers with control like Pineda has dont become available tyrpically until they are close to 30 and for an increasingly exorbanant amount of money/prospects or both. IF he would have stayed with the Mariners and improved next year over his rookie season, he would have become untouchable. I’ll take this trade over the proposed Cliff Lee trade anyday.

  91. Alfredo says:

    I love cano but i think the Yankees are better off trading him before he hits fee agency then sign him to a long term deal. nunez can play 2nd and we would get a package of Matt Moore, or maybe Strasburg, or cain and bumgamer. then with all that pitching trade betances, hughes, and romine for David Wright and A-Rod DH.

    What do you guys think of the trade proposals?

  92. Anchen says:

    Probably late to the party, and probably a lot of what I think has been said, but I still feel like the yankees will regret this trade. While we have 5 years of Pineda control, he’s already had arm issues in the minors and he already showed a slowdown in the 2nd half of last year. That, combined with his max effort delivery and not exactly clean mechanics has me worried that he’s going to go under the knife at least one of those years and won’t be fully back for at least 2.

    The other issue I have with Pineda is that he’s an extreme flyball right handed pitcher that is now going to pitch in the short porch at Yankee Stadium. He also has a definite lack of a third pitch (where have we heard that before Mr Hughes?) and has already shown some strong platoon splits in both the minors and majors. On the plus side he is young and he might figure things out…but we all thought Phil was going to as well and that hasn’t exactly happened. Instead Hughes lost that knock out power curve he had when I first saw him debut in 2007 and has never quite been the same since. At least he has a good k rate and walk rate to go with his stuff so at least there is some substance to that smoke.

    Position players and hitters are a lot safer bets than young pitchers. I probably have irrational love for our own homegrown prospects, but I think Montero’s bat is legit. I just think that when these 5-6 years are up, Montero is going to do a lot more for Seattle than Pineda is going to do for us, whether it is through injury, sheer performance, or both. I feel like we traded a Miguel Cabrera for an Ogando. I hope I’m wrong for the Yankees sake and I’m going to hope Pineda does well but I’m probably going to be irrationally booing the shit out of the guy if he gets off to a slow start :/

    • Anchen says:

      Oh and it also leaves the Yankees without exactly having a real DH, and now we are looking for one? And we have 7 or so pitchers plus AAA arms trying to get into the rotation? I like the Kuroda signing but I just can’t get behind this Pineda trade personally.

      • Alfredo says:

        The Yankees made this trade because they believe in Pineda not because Montero sucks or anything else and believe me they probably looked at this trade from every angle possible and know more about Pineda then you do. If the Yankees Believe then so do I. I like this trade.

        • Anchen says:

          Well you hope they put in the research. I just don’t believe in Pineda at least not to the point that he will out perform Montero over the length of their control. If the Yankees already had a DH (or are about the acquire one that’s remotely comparable) and if Pineda was a LOT more polished than he is now I’d feel better. Right now I see scary fly ball rate, no third pitch, and a potential injury history already (been shut down for elbow issues before, pitched 60 innings more than any season before last season, already had a phil hughes esque slow down in 2011 second half). That’s not the sure thing pitcher I would want to trade Montero for.

      • MannyGeee says:

        Needing a pitcher>>>>>>>>>> needing a DH,

        Ohshit, sorry guys. I forgot the narrative

        • Anchen says:

          Need a healthy and effective pitcher > DH > injured and 2 pitch pitcher who will give up hrs outside safeco. Narratives are stupid.

  93. candyforstalin says:

    is this a-rod to dh thing an internet meme i missed?

  94. Lonely Yanks Fan in Thailand says:

    Having looked over articles about the trade, be they for or against it, I think now, without taking into account whatever will come to be in the coming season (or the following few), that this trade worked out for everyone involved.

    The Yankees managed to get pitching help (and later came to an agreement with Kuroda) at the big league level, and now have what appears to be a rather promising pitching prospect. Pineda’s not perfect, but there is promise, and hopefully the Yankees and by extension, those who follow them, won’t put too much pressure on him – the guy will still be in his sophomore season.

    The Mariners now have a talented young core to build around, with Montero’s bat adding some much needed pop to an otherwise anemic offense.

    I will miss Jesus. I really will. Regardless of what he becomes at the Major League level, it was fun watching him come up through the ranks and tantalize us with his talent. I’m just glad that he’ll get a chance to play everyday and perhaps even catch. He’s too good to be pigeonholed into a DH/part-time catcher role that would cost him a fair amount of playing time.

    And maybe Gary Sanchez will work out and become Jesus with better catching. Or he could be just another prospect who couldn’t match the hype. You never know with prospects. And this is not taking into account guys like Murphy who might fly in under the radar in spite of their own potential.

    Last but not least, has anyone here tried to make a Pina Colada pun based on the recent news?

  95. leo says:

    if the trade goes down as is then its great trade for the yanks
    but i won’t believe it till i see it!

    • MannyGeee says:

      You guys don’t get it, Cashman fully intends to back out because the physical will reveal a hangnail on campos and Pineda has high triglycerides.

      And then he’ll be all like ‘FUCK U, JACK Z!!!!!!!’ and then the same assholes that have been lambbasting the deal will be upset that the deal broke down…

      • Monterowasdinero says:

        Now that we have Kuroda-that would be fine with me.

        Teams with average defensive catchers do just fine. See Yanks 2009….

        There was organizational bias against Montero-I think it had to do with work ethic/laid back personality/perceived lack of catcher leadership/field-general type issues. He was not a Girardi type of guy.

        It’s not as if every other pitch was a passed ball at Scranton these last 2 years.

        • MannyGeee says:

          You obviously missed the blatant sarcasm in my post.

          But i guess the same nits about Montero’s work ethic and perceived non chalantedness could be said about Cano, and no one is throwing him out quite yet. This has to do with dealing at a good price for a definate need….

  96. nycsportzfan says:

    anyone feel bad for Ben Cherrington at this point???lol me neither!!!lol

  97. celerinosanchez says:

    CC and Pineda… Smell You Later!
    The future front line of Betances, Sabathia, Pineda better than the knicks.

  98. Austinmac says:

    The reality is the Mariners backed out of the Lee trade due to concerns over Adams health. That was valid as he has barely played for two years.

  99. mt says:

    I see comment above (Tom at 1:07 am) about trade’s impact on $189 million 2014 austerity budget and I think people assume that becasue Pineda is “cost controlled” that definietely means we will be under the $189 million target. I submitted a tip about this and hope RAB explores further but my question is

    Can Yanks afford Hamels (I also referenced Lester in my tip but didn’t realize Sox have a cheap $13 million club option for 2014 so it is just lefty Hamels who I consider a premier lefty), Cano and Granderson at $20-$25 million per in 2014 and still meet the $189 million target?

    As I calculated (very rough calculations) unless they go with cheap catcher and do without one of Hamels, Cano and Grandy,it will be hard to meet the $189 million. (I already assumed Soriano, Burnett, Kuroda, Garcia, Rivera are gone, DRob is the (relatively cheap) arb-eligible closer and we have a cheap (couple of million) outfielder to replace Swisher).

    2014 is set up to have huge implications for future given 1) Yanks will have a lot of arb eligible key performers in 2014 who although “cost-controlled” may still get hefty arbitration awards/contracts because of their numbers and length of service: Robertson, Gardner, Nova, Pineda, Nunez 2) two franchise type FAs expecting big bucks (Grandy and Cano/Boras) and 2 FAs who I cannot see Yanks paying $5-$10 million a year as Free agnents if they are still with team: good old Joba and Phil.

    Numbers are hard to work if one has Arod/Te/CC already accounting for $75 million and then one tries to inlcude Grandy, Cano and Hamels at $60-70 million.

    Maybe answer is that although Hamels may be out of their price range if they want to keep both Cano and Grandy, they can shop and try to get a better deal with second tier pitcher trypes (Sanchez, McCarthy) in 2013, or Haren, Santana types in 2014.

    Another way of putting this: if Yanks sign Cano AND Grandy, is a possibly expensive year one arb-eligible Michael Pineda (and slew of key young third year arb-eigibles like Drob) the end of the Cole Hamels fantasy?

    (It would be a good thing if Michael Pineda gets a high dollar arb award in 2014 because it will mean he performed well in 2012 and 2014. Also if Manny and Dellin really blossom ,technically we do not need Hamels.)

    • mt says:

      Typo: it will mean he (pineda) performed will in 2012 and 2013,

    • Tom says:

      Pineda will be entering his arb 1 year, and barring winning a Cy he’ll be in the 3-4mil range in all likeihood.
      - Justin Verlander (though I think he was a super2) asked for 4.1 mil in his arb 1 year and settled with Det for under 4mil.
      - King Felix settled with Seattle for 3.8mil in his arb 1 year (after 3 league min years)
      - Lincecum got 9mil coming off 1 (or was it 2?) Cy Young caliber seasons. And if Pineda is actually performing at a Cy level and getting 8-10mil in his arb1 year, do you really do a long term megadeal with Cole Hamels?

      And the arb 3 players in 2014 are the type of guys who’s #’s don’t look great and tend to be undervalued in the arb hearings. Unless Robertson is closing games in 2013 and racking up saves, his raises will be modest. Nunez is not going to be getting significant arb awards serving as a bench player and Gardner’s skills (defense, OBP) tend to be very undervalued in arbitration.

      The Yankees had 4 essentially open questions – Granderson, Cano, Swisher, Martin. I think if they sign a guy like Hamels at 20+mil per it means losing one big guy (Granderson or Cano) or the combo of Martin and Swisher need to be replaced with cheap alternatives. If they had league min (or near min) guys at catcher (Romine?) and RF (?), they might be able to still do it with Hamels/Cano/Granderson

  100. Rich says:

    You can also backload contracts for Cano, Granderson and Hamels to get under the cap in 2014.

    • Guns of Navarone says:

      Is it a given that Cano and Granderson will make $20 million plus?

      Correct me if I’m wrong, but the list of position players in MLB making that much money is pretty thin. You have A-Rod, Tex, Mauer, Cabrera, Wells, Howard, Helton, and now Crawford and A-Gon. Soriano, Torii Hunter, and Carlos Lee are close. Tulo and maybe some others are backloaded.

      Much of that list consists of home run hitting corner players. Wells, Soriano, Lee, and maybe Hunter will be looked at as bad contracts and not a basis for comparison. The Crawford deal will be the most interesting to see what he does this year, but it looks like his deal being the most recent is the basis for comparison for a Cano/Granderson type player.

      My point is that $20 million isn’t just handed out to every all-star who hits free agency. I certainly don’t think $25 million is realistic as mentioned in mt’s post above.

    • Tom says:

      The luxury tax is based on AAV (average annual value) of the contract to prevent teams from backloading contracts to game the system… I’m not sure if MLB uses the entire contract or just the contract moving forward.

      So if you signed Granderson to say a 3 year deal of 12, 18, 24… it would count as 18mil (not 12mil) toward the luxury tax calculation in that first year. The thing I’m not sure about is if in year 2 it would also be 18mil (the average over the entire contract) or 21 mil (the average over the remaining contract). I think it’s the latter but am not 100% certain.

      It was one of the reasons why the Red Sox gamed the system with the AGon extenstion and waited a few weeks into the season to make it official. Even though he was getting paid 6mil last year, if they finalized the extension prior to the reg season the Red Sox would have had the average value of the contract count toward the luxury tax as opposed to just 6 mil; so the Red Sox saved a chunk of luxury tax waiting until after MLB does its luxury tax calculation. I think they look at the contract as of opening day (or something around then)

  101. jason says:

    Just catching up (hard to read >400 comments in one shot) but one can’t help think about the fact that but for Adams injury, Yankees essentially traded Montero for Cliff Lee. Now its Montero (after the flash he showed in September) for Pineda. How did Cashman not get Felix in this deal? What am I missing??

    • Guns of Navarone says:

      Lee was headed for free agency. Seattle had little leverage. Either accept a trade or get nothing for him. The Yankees know they would also have to sign him to a huge extension to keep him (if they keep him at all) so the price goes down.

      Montero + Adams (who was a decent prospect before his injury) + another good prospect (I’m not sure who) would have been a fine package. The market was pretty ridiculous for pitching this season. It doesn’t really compare to the market over the last two years. It’s better to compare this deal to the Latos and, to a lesser extent, Gio Gonzalez deals this season.

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