Pineda suffers setback in Extended Spring Training

Joba resumes workouts in Tampa
Game 15: Back on Track

Update (3:05pm): Via Sherman, Pineda was examined in Tampa and they decided to send him back to New York for a dye-contrast MRI to see if the initial examine missed anything.


1:15pm:
Via Joel Sherman and Marc Carig, right-hander Michael Pineda felt some weakness in his shoulder during his Extended Spring Training outing today. The Yankees shut him right down and he will go see the team doctor before they determine how to proceed.

Pineda threw one inning today, his first game action since hitting the disabled list with shoulder tendinitis about three weeks ago. An MRI showed no structural damage to his labrum or rotator cuff at the time. He reported no problems while playing catch and throwing bullpen sessions over the last two weeks or so.

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Joba resumes workouts in Tampa
Game 15: Back on Track
  • FIPster Doofus
  • crawdaddie

    If they didn’t do the dye with the previous MRI, they better now. They got to determine if he has structural damage or not.

  • Jesse

    :(

  • oj

    Cashman is lucky campos is destroying low A.

    • Anthony

      Ya good thing, since you would totally fire him if not.

      • Jesse

        I wonder how many times he’s been RAB and Twitter fired since this deal was made.

        • Robinson Tilapia

          Still less than Billy Martin…

          • Plank

            Nicely done.

  • http://yankeeanalysts.com Matt Imbrogno

    FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFfffffffffffff

  • Anthony

    Good thing, or else you would TOTALLY fire him.

  • JobaWockeeZ

    So Hughes is gonna stay in the rotation for a while then…

    • Kevin Winters

      Pretty much

    • jjyank

      Or Garcia.

      • JobaWockeeZ

        And as much as I dislike Hughes starting, he’s still better than Garcia.

        • jjyank

          I agree, but if Garcia is pitching significantly better than Hughes, I doubt Garcia gets the axe.

  • Sick Nwisher

    The people who hated the trade are going to have a field day with this. I hate to say it but Pineda looks like damaged goods.

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike Axisa

      There were plenty of legitimate reasons to dislike the trade before Pineda ever got hurt. I’m not sure this validates them just because we don’t know the extent of the injury yet.

      • Ted Nelson

        It’s basically confirmation bias for anyone to say “told you” at this point, but this was one of them: the frequency with which Ps get injured. Something like the Rafael Soriano deal: it was a bad value anyway, but a bad case scenario playing out in year 1 just drove the point home. (I don’t think Pineda was as bad a value as Soriano, really, even though I wasn’t a huge fan of acquiring Pineda and was more of a fan of acquiring Soriano than most… just an example.) Of course, hopefully this is a minor bump in the road and Pineda is back and better than ever soon. Plus the deal not hinging totally on Pineda as people are pointing out.

        • Pinstripes in Cali

          I agree with everything you said, except that Pineda was a bad value. Tit-for-tat, it was a fair trade, unless Jesus turns into a passable C or a gold glove 1b. Agreed about relative positional propensity for injury though.

  • teddy

    i fire cashman anyway. this is a disaster

    • jjyank

      Overreact much?

      • Robinson Tilapia

        It’s Teddy. Ignore.

    • Pasqua

      which is one of the reasons why you’re commenting on a blog with the rest of us.

  • Betty Lizard

    If I believed in Satan, which I do not, I’d have to regard injuries to MLB players as one of his favorite hobbies.

    Curses!

    • jjyank

      Lucifer “Stairs” Satan.

      • Robinson Tilapia

        The dream lives on.

  • Rey22

    Dammit…just can’t catch a break.

  • mikeymike

    Coooool

  • http://twitter.com/_swarlesbarkley Drew

    Well this isn’t good.

    I am going to stick with my preseason prediction that Montero will have more HR than Pineda has IP. Fucka me luigi.

    • Will

      Maybe so, but Montero will also likely see a lower # of pitches the entire season than, say, Granderson will seein any given week. His final slash line will be comparable to Ibanez.

  • Clyde Barrow

    Cashman traded away a future superstar for a guy who likely won’t throw a pitch for us this season. How nice would it be to have Montero in the every day lineup for the next 10 years? Seattle got themselves one hell of a deal.

    • http://www.twitter.com/_swarlesbarkley Drew

      Who would have thought trading the son of God would backfire?

      • Clyde Barrow

        Many of us did. But now what you’ll see is a bunch of people bashing Montero. Jesus could do no wrong when he was with us, but now that he’s not he’s trash. He’s going to be a star and Cashman traded him away for a dud.

        • Havok9120

          Who the Hell here has bashed Montero? Seriously, who? When? I’ve seen people post his slumping line as a joke, I’ve seen people sarcastically proclaiming we won the trade because of Campos, I’ve even seen people raise (gasp) the same questions they raised when he was with us regarding position. But NO ONE here that isn’t a random troll has gone on about Montero sucking. At worst, people are sick of people bringing him up in almost every DoTF, Game Thread, and Open Thread.

          You want to be bitter over the trade, that’s fine. But don’t make things up just to justify your bitterness.

          • jjyank

            +1

            I loved Montero as a prospect too, but I am so sick of hearing his name now. Nobody is bashing him. I personally liked the trade because I think a starting pitcher of Pineda’s caliber is worth more than a DH, but that’s not “bashing” him. And to Clyde Barrow above, isn’t it a little early to call Montero a star and Pineda a dud?

            • Kvothe

              We don’t know if he’s a DH yet. Seattle has put him behind the plate a few times this season.

              • jjyank

                Fair enough, but I didn’t have much faith in Montero’s ability to stick as a catcher when he was with the Yankees either, so I remain unconvinced. But if it’s too early to call him a DH, wouldn’t you agree that it’s also too early to call him a star? I think Montero is getting more overhyped by Yankee fans after the trade than before it.

            • Curved Slightly

              And what caliber is Pineda? Big kid with a big fastball and mediocre secondary pitches? The kid had a good first half of 2011 and that was it. The red flags were there before the trade. Got beaten around post-ASB, low 90’s heater, etc. The red flags were there when he showed up to spring training overweight and still lacking velocity on his fastball.

              There were more questions about Pineda’s conditioning, work ethic and everything in between. Those questions weren’t there about Montero. This was a stupid trade in January. It’s a stupid trade now. 5 years down the road when Montero is a perennial all star and Pineda is pitching in an independent league somewhere, it’ll STILL be a stupid trade.

              • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike Axisa

                No questions about Montero’s work ethic? They had to bench him in the minors for stuff on at least two occasions. We even started a whole #badattitude meme about it because the MSM was obsessed over it.

                And to call Pineda’s slider “mediocre” is ignorance at best and intellectually dishonest at worst.

                • jjyank

                  This. I forgot to even address this in my post below, but Montero didn’t have work ethic questions? How about how he was “bored” in AAA and pissy about not getting called up sooner? I’m guessing this guy is a Cashman hater and is willing to find anything he can to make the trade look “stupid”, while only making himself look that way in the process.

              • jjyank

                Well aren’t you uninformed. Pineda has a nasty, wipe-out slider, and his changeup had gotten praise in spring training. As for his post ASB performance, his peripherals were still great, so that’s not nearly the red flag you make it out to be. You can disagree with the trade, but getting a potential frontline pitcher with a year of success at the MLB level for a prospect is anything but “stupid”.

                http://riveraveblues.com/2012/.....eda-62401/

                Read the part about the Mariners taking him off a 5-day schedule to limit his innings and how his peripherals were still very good in the second half before you talk about red flags.

                • Curved Slightly

                  “Nasty, wipe-out slider.” On this planet? Woman, please. Have you actually watched him pitch before? Either last year or in spring training? Yeah, Pineda throws 97 MPH but with no movement. A flat slider and a non-existent change up. You know who else has very similar stuff? Daniel Bard…

                  You can talk about his peripherals all you want. His BB/9, K/9 and K:BB were similar between first and second half. You also failed to mention the huge increase in his H/9 which seems to coincide with his drop in velocity. This is common sense.

                  It’s obvious you want to be nestled tightly between Cashman’s scrotum and thigh, but this is common sense. There were plenty of red flags before the offseason to make this a terrible trade. And honestly, I both hope and truly feel that Pineda won’t pitch an inning for us this year.

                  Oh, by the way… a bad attitude is a lot different than lack of work ethic. Montero should’ve been up in May last year and not left to rot in Scranton. I’d be pissed too if I had to be somewhere where I wasn’t being challenged.

                  You don’t trade a guy like Jesus Montero unless it’s for an established ace. Not a guy with a good first half of a season. It will haunt us. Pineda is a perennial DL candidate. Mark it down because it’s going to be true.

              • Havok9120

                The strength of your opinions does not outweigh you obviously not having read any of the multitude of work in the Yankee blogosphere debunking the “he sucked in the 2nd half” myth. Mediocre secon-? Huh what now? Even if you want to assume that his changeup was crap (it wasn’t), that slider is amazing. I mean, how else could he have been so effective in ST with greatly diminished velocity if his secondary pitches were bad?

                What questions were there, before he reported to camp overweight, about his work ethic and conditioning? I don’t recall any, and your track record above doesn’t really make me doubt my memory. And did you miss all of the crap that was posted throughout last season about Montero’s work ethic and attitude? The MSM went NUTS about it, even months before the trade.

                Its posts like THIS which has made people here want to just stop hearing about Montero. We don’t mind reminders that he exists or celebrating his success. Our team raised him after all. But the bitter-tinged garbage posts have and, even worse, rude (NOT sarcastic) one liners every time he makes a play are driving people up a wall. Especially, as you can probably tell, me.

          • Ted Nelson

            I would definitely say that you’re underselling the criticism of Montero. Same thing happened with Noesi. As soon as someone is traded the tide does change. Probably human nature.

            • CW

              I may have missed it, but I haven’t seen Montero bashed here, other than his defense, a little.

        • Betty Lizard

          Let’s see: Felix lost to Cleveland. But, Jesus caught up to Russell Martin in home runs, so good on him.

          As for Pineda, I keep repeating “Developing pitchers is a process” while watching my Drunken Noodles revolving in the microwave

    • jjyank

      A couple of things.

      1. We don’t know how long this will set Pineda back for. Don’t pretend you’re the team doctor now.

      2. Seattle has Montero for 6 years, then he’s a free agent. Not sure where you got 10.

      • The Team Doctor

        Can I pretend?

        • jjyank

          Permission granted.

    • Voice of Reason

      lost in all of this is that Montero has kind of sucked thus far, and Noesi has been incredibly bad

      • Havok9120

        Well, its true we heard more about his good games early against the A’s then we are now about his mediocrity since then, but that has to do with so many Montero fans wanting to rub success in our collective faces and then shutting up.

        That said, it remains a small and meaningless sample size and doesn’t provide any indications one way or another, any more that this injury does. Neither of them are fulfilling a pattern they’ve had in their careers so far, so no one should really pay too much attention yet.

      • Pasqua

        If you’re going to be the Voice of Reason, it’s probably best not to cite three weeks-worth of performances by Montero and Noesi as a counter-argument. Citing that is just as bad as proclaiming Pineda a bust for being injured.

        • Robinson Tilapia

          Yeah. Let’s not go there juuuuust yet.

        • Voice of Reason

          Certainly my point was not that Montero and Noesi are terrible and always shall be terrible because of their performances in 2012, so this is nothing to worry about. That’s a pretty ridiculous meaning to assign to that comment, actually. The point is that while everyone’s feeling sorry for themselves because Pineda’s injured, it’s not as if the Yankees have lost out on anything thus far, nor would they have been assured of anything great in the future if this trade hadn’t been made. Montero and Noesi have done less than nothing, and their futures are only slightly less uncertain than Pineda’s (and even that is debatable).

  • http://www.twitter.com/_swarlesbarkley Drew

    Well this isn’t good.

    I am going to stick with my preseason prediction that Montero would have more HR than Pineda has IP. Fucka me Luigi.

  • JobaWockeeZ

    Captain Hindsight says we missed out Halladay. Lee would’ve screwed us for Philly but Roy freaking Halladay was there.

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike Axisa

      I don’t think they ever had a real shot at Halladay. Toronto had no interest in trading within the division, especially when it came to trading the face of the franchise. I wanted him as much as anyone, but I just didn’t see it happening.

      • jjyank

        This. We would have had to hand over the entire farm system to convince Toronto to trade him within the division. And even then I’m not sure they’d trade him to us.

        • JobaWockeeZ

          Hughes and Montero equals Drabek and Arnaud in 2009. AA is the best in the league and he knows he won’t compete. He even said the notion of trading in the division wasn’t out of the question if the package was right…

          It’s clear they had no plans for Montero other than a trade chip. He’s offered in every package for a pitcher and they were so scared of calling him up last year. He never had a place on the team. It’s not gutting the farm when the guy was never destined to stay on the team.

          • Havok9120

            I think their point is that if history is any guideline, we would have been charged MORE than what the trade ended up being for. So add probably one fairly big prospect or useful big league player to that deal for an inter-division trade.

            • JobaWockeeZ

              Like AJax who many proclaim is a huge bust? Could definitely live with that. Andrew Brackman too was regarded highly. Romine as well. Even if it’s Hughes, Montero, AJax, Brackman and Romine the real loss is Romine and he could very well end up busting.

              Montero’s a goner, AJax sucks, Brackman probably busted. Still a steal for the best pitcher in the league.

              • Havok9120

                You are right to call yourself Captain Hindsight. You’re using the value those players have now, not what they had then. That said, you’re absolutely right if you use today’s value.

                Of course, you’d also be living without Curtis Granderson, which is a fairly big loss.

          • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike Axisa

            Drabek and Hughes were not the same. Hughes had 2+ years of service time them, Drabek had all six and was at the top of his prospect shine.

            • Gonzo

              Wasn’t Doc available way before he was eventually traded? Maybe my memory just messing with me? Didn’t JP talk about this on ESPN?

              • Gonzo

                Just checked, JP said he was available at the trade deadline in ’09. Not much time before he was traded as I thought.

            • JP

              I’m a Jays fan reading your blog, thought I’d chime in on this.

              In 09 the talk was that Halladay was only willing to be traded to NYY, BOS or PHI.

              As a fan I would have hated seeing him go to BOS or NYY, but I think it was absolutely a possibility. It was a real low point for the franchise, so I think they felt they needed the best possible prospects, intradivisional or not. If the Yanks had beaten Drabek, Darnaud, Taylor – I’m betting they would have got him.

              Anyway, that’s my two cents.

              Btw – Great blog guys. I enjoy reading it and getting Yankee fans’ perspective.

              • Gonzo

                I was just looking through some of the old Halladay could be had posts. No one wanted to give up anyone of value. I guess the extension he signed was kind of a surprise.

              • jjyank

                Thanks for the input. Always good to get another perspective. Maybe we could have gotten Doc if we beat the package, but that’s the point: given two equal packages, I doubt Toronto picks the team in its own division. The Yankees would have had to overpay.

                I don’t blame Cashman for not getting Doc. I supported the Pineda trade, and I won’t call it a bad trade because of a setback (the extend of which we don’t even know) in April.

                • JP

                  “given two equal packages, I doubt Toronto picks the team in its own division.”

                  I think this is definitely true. The Yanks couldn’t have just matched Drabek, D’arnaud, Taylor.

                  I wonder what the Yanks (or Sox) actually offered? I never heard any solid rumours about it.

              • TomH

                Living as I do in Toronto, I find it very hard to believe the Jays would have traded RH to NYY without a major stripping of the Yankees’ farm system.

                Toronto can man up to Boston or LAA or TB or Texas, but not to NYY. There’s some sort of “complex,” as people used to say, when it comes to the Jays’ attitude to the Yankees. They’ve always played over their heads against the Yanks, even when they were a lowly expansion team. During their glory days, they preened (from their announcers to the fan in the street) over the Yankees.

                They would have demanded the moon for a pitcher who would then come back up here, before the home folks, and beat them regularly. No Jays’ GM could have endured it.

                • JP

                  @TomH

                  I think you’re really overstating the Yankees inferiority complex, to be fair. I mean, there’s an understanding that the Yankees are a legendary franchise (one that the Jays finished behind for 19 straight years), so of course there are some David and Goliath feelings.

                  There’s no doubt the Jays wouldn’t want to trade Halladay to the Yanks, but considering they only had 3 options, I believe they would have if the Yanks came up with the best offer.

                  Don’t forget – the Blue Jays traded Rogers Clemens (coming off 2 insanely good Cy Young seasons) to the Yankees before the 99 season. It’s not like it hasn’t happened before.

                  • Midland TX

                    For what it’s worth-

                    Before yesterday, the last triple play in Jays history was in 1979, when a September call-up for the Yankees, a shortstop named Damaso Garcia, hit a liner off of Tom Underwood that preserved the win for Toronto.

                    Just a few months later, those two would switch teams, with Chris Chambliss and Rick Cerone also changing uniforms.

                    And now, Chambliss is Montero’s hitting coach in Seattle.

                    (whoa dude)

    • Robinson Tilapia

      Captain Hindsight is usually pretty irrelevant.

  • http://fendersonandhampton.com Cuso

    If nothing else-this experience will pound into Pinedas skull the importance of physical preparedness and fitness when you go to Spring Training.

    Silver lining on a fart cloud – I know……

    • jjyank

      True. I would cite the Hughes example, since he had a lost year and apparently rededicated himself during the offseason, but that’s not working out so far. But you get the drift.

  • Chen Meng Wang

    Well on a scale of making my day to ruining it, this news sucks testicles.

  • Tyrone Sharpton

    i like this more for pineda than having him up early in the season and giving him a baptism by fire in new york. when he get’s back, everyone will be down on him and expectations will be lowered, but watch him become a huge force in october. guarantee it

  • jjyank

    I think people are forgetting that Pineda is with is for 5 years. Nobody loses or wins this trade in year 1. Let’s say Pineda has a completely lost year, then pitches like an ace for the next 4 years. Isn’t that still better than a DH? Perspective, guys, perspective.

    • Gonzo

      If Pineda misses a year, presumably to injury, wouldn’t the odds of him pitching like an ace the next 4 year go down a decent amount?

      In my opinion, it would. I am not saying he’s remotely close to missing the year.

      • jjyank

        Maybe, maybe not. I’m just trying to point out that he’s on the team for 5 years, so the ledge jumpers need to relax about losing the trade just a couple weeks into year 1 of 5.

        • Gonzo

          Absolutely, but if he misses the season due to a shoulder injury the odds of him pitching like an ace the next 4 years are not in his favor historically.

          • TomH

            Bingo! You said it! Everything turns on whether or not this is a serious shoulder problem. Someone, above, noted the need for the dye-based MRI, and if that’s needed to make nuanced diagnoses, then they’d better get with it.

            Is this problem a function of his having been out of shape over the winter? Is it related to whatever caused that speed (aka: “velocity”) slow down after the ASG last year? Or is it some new thing? Who knows? It’s hard to relate it (at the moment) to any sort of Yankee failure in “pitcher development,” though–unless they now bungle the diagnostic process.

          • jjyank

            Sure, but all we know right now is that they have not found any structural damage (yet) and his shoulder feels “weak”. It seems premature to extrapolate that out to missing an entire year. Yes, I know I brought that up to begin with, but its a point that many here seem to be glossing over (not you, just speaking generally).

            • Gonzo

              I am not saying he’s remotely close to missing the year.

              • jjyank

                I know, I mentioned that I was speaking more generally in that last post, not to you.

    • Jimmy McNulty

      Yeah and IF my aunt had a dick she’d be my uncle, I’m not sure what your point is.

      • jjyank

        …what? My point is pretty simple. It will like take several years to determine the value of the trade. Pineda could come back strong from this, he could never pitch again. Similarly, Montero could be the next Mike Piazza, or he could completely flame out.

        Seems like a simple concept, but one that apparently escaped you and opened the door for irrelevant analogies.

  • Lime

    Sure, this sucks, but like the Javy Vazquez trade, I have no problem with the process. There is still plenty of time for this trade to break the right way…if Pineda was in the rotation right now and had thrown 3 great games, then the mantra would be small sample size. Way too early to draw conclusions.

  • What the Kruk?

    Baseball needs to implement a lemon law.

    • Dummies Playing With Balls (formerly Rainbow Connection)

      Or a lemon party law.

    • Pasqua

      That’s awesome.

  • Electric Nunez aka the shocker

    Make mlb make seattle give us king felix for all our draft picks this year .

  • Rich in NJ

    Pitchers under 26 are more susceptible to injury. That’s why I would have only traded Montero in a package for a hitter.

    But Cashman disagrees, and Pineda is a Yankes, so I hope he is ok, and/or recovers fully and soon.

    • crawdaddie

      So you wouldn’t have traded Montero for Kershaw if he was available?

  • Electric Nunez aka the shocker

    More good news jeter at dh and the shocker at ss this afternoon.
    Ok how about a poll
    What inning and how many runs will a nunez error hurt us today I got third with bases loaded and two outs in a tied game nunez throws the ball into the firstbase seats.

    • Monterowasdinero

      Only to make it up with a bunt single, a stolen base and a double off the wall.

      Eduardo:the most interesting utility man

      in the world.

  • Electric Nunez aka the shocker

    Two runs score

  • bonestock94

    Noooooooooooooooooooooooooo

  • RetroRob

    Not good news, but also incomplete news.

    • http://thegreedypinstripes.com Bryan V

      You’re absolutely right. It’s not something you want to hear, but until we get more news it’s not something to over-react, or even react to.

    • Jimmy McNulty

      Yes, there’s a way that having Pineda shut down is somehow a good thing

      • http://thegreedypinstripes.com Bryan V

        Who’s saying good thing? Listen! All that’s being said is that it’s not necessarily as bad as some are making it out to be.

      • Havok9120

        There’s a difference between them saying it could be a “good thing” and their saying “it might not be an Armageddon for the organization.”

        A pretty big difference actually.

      • RetroRob

        ?

  • http://thegreedypinstripes.com Bryan V

    “The sky is falling”

    All you Chicken Littles need to take a breather. Shoulder weakness, after weeks of not throwing, is not something to get your panties in a twist over. If structural damage is found, then we can get upset. Then again, the Pineda acquisition was about more than 2012. But the haters of the trade don’t want to hear that, they want instant satisfaction.

    And I’d rather have lost Montero than spend around $100 million on a pitcher, like Texas did with Darvish or LA did with Wilson. Because while not having Montero could hurt the offense, it’s not as if the offense was weak to begin with. But spending $100 million and not getting anything back would hurt more, as the team is already well above the $189 million payroll threshold they want to get to in 2014 and 2015.

    • jjyank

      Agree completely.

    • Jimmy McNulty

      Ummm…Darvish and Wilson aren’t terrible. This is a stupid comparison, like…really fucking stupid comparison. This is worse than the Chickenlittles. You’re saying “I would have rather a rare elite prospect for a shitty pitcher than money (that I have a lot of) for a good pitcher.” That’s terminal stupidity.

      • http://thegreedypinstripes.com Bryan V

        And it’s brilliant to call Michael Pineda a “shitty” pitcher. Excuse me while I cry laugh at your response.

      • jjyank

        What? Are you just trolling now, or what? Darvish is still a relative unknown, how do you know he won’t be terrible? Maybe he pulls a Dice-K and even has a good year before being terrible. Wilson went from being a reliever to a starter and had huge inning increases. How do you know his arm holds up over the life of the contract and won’t be terrible? Stop jumping to conclusions in April.

        “Terminal stupidity” is you making rash judgements and calling Pineda a shitty pitcher.

        • Jimmy McNulty

          Darvish is a relative unknown? Well what the hell is Pineda? Good god, you would have had a point if you were to say I’m too quick to judge Pineda…but Darvish has incredible stats and by all accounts easily 80% of us wanted him badly, SG did some amazing work on him…my feelings for Yu have always been real. You’re telling me to “stop jumping to conclusions” when you yourself are jumping to the biggest conclusion of all “Pineda doesn’t suck” he had one good year and there’s a high flame out rate for young flamethrowers like that. There was this fat alcoholic pitcher that was similar to him, he was good for a while…threw plus plus heat, plus plus slider, and a plus curve and he ended up flaming out and being forced into relief. Forgot his name.

          Idiot.

          • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike Axisa

            Oh please, Joba is completely irrelevant as far as Pineda is concerned. Remember CC Sabathia? Big guy, great fastball, knockout slider. Worked out fine. Just as relevant as Joba. Two completely different pitchers.

            Darvish hasn’t done shit here. In case you haven’t noticed, and it sure sounds like you haven’t, he’s have the same typical Japanese import problems of not throwing strikes and being unwilling to challenge. Hence all the walks against the freaking Twins and Mariners. He’s no more of a sure thing than Pineda or any other young pitcher.

          • jjyank

            I’m an idiot, yet you’re the one throwing around Japanese statistics to prove that Darvish will have a long and successful career in the MLB. Right.

            I’m jumping to a conclusion by saying Pineda doesn’t suck? He doesn’t. He’s not healthy, so we can debate the implications of that, but a healthy Pineda is a damn good pitcher. He was more of a track record than Darvish does as far as I’m concerned. I don’t give two shits what a player does in Japan, I want to see it at the MLB level. Take Kuroda as an example. Hardly heralded as the next big thing when he made the jump, but he made the adjustment and succeeded. Now compare that to someone with the hype of Dice-K. Stop pretending like Darvish is a completely known quantity.

            I wanted Darvish as well, he certainly has potential, I am not bashing him. But Pineda has been successful at the MLB level for a full season already, you only make yourself look like an “idiot” by saying sucks. Disagree with the trade if you want, but stop deluding yourself.

            • JohnnyC

              Guys, it’s Jimmy McNulty who like his namesake on The Wire is disliked by many because of his arrogance, disdain for authority, and disrespect for the chain of command. When not posting on Yankees blogs, he has frequent problems involving alimony, alcoholism, child support, and relationships. Give him a break, will ya?

          • Havok9120

            So you at least admit that you’re too quick to judge Pineda.

            That’s something at least.

      • Robinson Tilapia

        And there should be a lemon law…….for commenters.

  • SwisherForPresident

    Currently on a flight to Seattle to kill the gm’s first born child, only fair to make it even

    • Gonzo

      If he survived the Cliff Lee non-trade and the Josh Lueke trade, he’ll survive this.

    • Electric Nunez aka the shocker

      Kill the whole family this is not the first time seattle has screwed us.

    • sfly6844

      ^^^Not even remotely funny ^^^

  • Gonzo

    I can’t believe there are no “dead arm” jokes in here.

  • Jimmy McNulty

    First off, I’m not saying that “the sky is falling,” “they’re doomed,” or “fire Cashman.” However, I am saying that you’re a fucking idiot if you don’t think that they need to improve the way that they evaluate pitching. It’s been absolutely atrocious, look at the list of some of the pitchers that they’ve acquired:

    Albaladejo, AJ Burnett, Kyle Farnsworth, Javier Vazquez, Pedro Feliciano, Kei Igawa, LaTroy Hawkins, Damaso Marte, and Chan Ho Park.

    Guys that they dealt: Tyler Clippard and Ian Kennedy

    Guys they refused to deal: Phil Hughes and Joba Chamberlain.

    Yes, Cashman had success with Ivan Nova, David Robertson, Bartolo Colon, and Freddy Garcia last year…but he’s had a LOT more failures than successes…which is the usual, but not with moves like these. There’s the rule of three with pitching prospects, and they always seem to hold on to the disappointing two.

    For a while I thought that, “well if Cashman’s biggest problem signing too many shitty left handed relievers I’ll gladly take it” but it’s not just relievers that this team struggles with. It’s starters too, they’ve signed numerous terrible starters and failed with two of their best pitching prospects. I don’t think you can say with a straight face that the Yankees failed with Hughes and Chamberlain, both in holding on to them for too long and in not having a plan once they kept them. Javier Vazquez, AJ Burnett, Chan Ho Park, Freddy Garcia (the sequel), letting Bartolo Colon go, and now Michael Pineda…they can’t properly evaluate starters either. Yeah, they got the slam dunk CC Sabathia right…EVERYONE gets that one right. The way that they evaluate, develop, and scout pitching needs to seriously change.

    They just traded away their best prospect in the last ten years and probably the best prospect they’ll see for the next ten years for a pitcher that has arm issues and probably won’t pitch until June…maybe July, and who knows how good he’ll be when he does pitch. Something needs to change.

    • http://thegreedypinstripes.com Bryan V

      Tell me, how high on the prospect list was Robinson Cano? You know, the guy that’s currently their best all-around hitter.

      How high was David Robertson on prospect lists? You know, the guy that’s currently the best reliever they have not named Mariano Rivera.

      How high was Ivan Nova listed by guys like Baseball America and Keith Law? You know, the guy that is at least the #3 pitcher on the team, and likely will be for the next 4+ years.

      The whole “he was the best prospect ever” line is tired, and holds water as well as a bucket made out of Swiss cheese. He was a prospect… just like Pineda. Oh, but Pineda was a horrible prospect, right? Get out of here with this prospect crap.

      Find other ways to bash Cashman and the Yankees, because this argument is junk.

      • jjyank

        This.

        The Yankees have actually been really good at finding pitching value in the mid-late round of the drafts.

        And what about guys like Wade that they get off the scrap heap? Seems like good evaluation to me. And FYI, most of the guys you listed as failures were low risk deals. Albaladejo, Kyle Farnsworth, LaTroy Hawkins, and Chan Ho Park? Really? Every team in baseball takes chances on scrap heap guys like this, and it doesn’t always work out. And regarding Burnett, the issue was his health, not his ability. Considering he stayed healthy, (and pitched well in 09) I actually think they evaluated his ability to stay healthy pretty well, no?

        Of course there are more failures than successes. This is baseball, it is a game of failure. Not every team can be the Rays with regards to pitching. I’m not saying the Yankees are amazing at evaluating pitchers, but you’re overreacting here.

        • Jimmy McNulty

          No, you and Bryan V are still idiots. Though I will say this, Wade was a good pick up and they’re in first place, homerism!!!! Kyle Farnsworth was not a scrap heap deal, he was signed to a 3/17 contract as a set up man…six years ago. Albaladejo was acquired for Tyler Clippard…yeah they lost that trade. They may have evaluated Burnett’s health pretty well, but they fucked up on everything else…hey flags fly forever right?

          If you could read, you’d see that my issue isn’t these deals on an individual basis, they were all somewhat justifiable…however very very few of these deals worked out. This organization is godawful at evaluating pitchers, plain and simple. Yeah, Wade, Robertson, Nova, Freddy, and Bart were good moves…but with Freddy and Bart they got the call wrong both times the very next year.

          • jjyank

            Regarding Freddy and Colon…how do you know they made the wrong decision? It’s been 14 games. SSS FTW, huh?

            Again, I can’t take you seriously when you open your argument with personal insults. All you accomplish by doing so is destroying your credibility and making yourself look like the idiot. Congrats. I’m done feeding the trolls now. Peace out.

      • Jimmy McNulty

        My argument is junk? Okay…if you weren’t an illiterate fucking shithead you’d see that I pointed out successes like Nova and Robertson. No, not all the guys that are elite players were elite prospects (Cano was the #2 prospect in the organization, and relief prospects are hard to grade so that’s sort of a misleading/stupid argument that you’re making), but when you have a prospect that good usually they end up kicking ass. My point is that Montero was and still is a super valuable asset that every team in the majors would love to have, and that they traded him for a pitcher that already has serious injury problems and won’t pitch until June at the earliest. The move in it of itself isn’t what I’m lamenting, it’s their inability to properly evaluate pitching. Please don’t type anything until you’ve read this:

        http://www.amazon.com/Grade-Re.....pd_sim_b_2

        • jjyank

          I didn’t even bother reading this one. When you can make a calm, rational argument without profanity or personal attacks, get back to me.

          • Jimmy McNulty

            Well surely you must have read some of it to know that it had profanity or personal attacks, so that makes you a lying libby. Anyways, when you can receive criticism for your inane and facile opinions without going on the rag, get back to me.

            • jjyank

              It was in the second sentence, didn’t take long to find. Calm down dude, this just baseball. If I’m “on the rag”, what does that make you with all these ridiculous raging comments? Have you even bothered to read the stuff you type? You don’t exactly come across as rational.

              • Jimmy McNulty

                Says the guy that thinks that the team who paid Damaso Marte and Pedro Feliciano 20 million dollars for a total of 50 innings is good at evaluating pitching. I’m the irrational one.

                • jjyank

                  Every team makes mistakes like that. Being a GM is easy when you’re only using hindsight to make decisions.

        • Pasqua

          If you expect people to read the missives you’re composing, try to avoid calling other commenters “illiterate fucking shitheads” in your first sentence. You tend to lose your audience when you do that.

    • Robinson Tilapia

      and that’s because…..ready for this…..DEVELOPING PITCHERS MEANS A LOT MORE FAILURE THAN SUCCESS.

      *breathes*

      • Jimmy McNulty

        Where did I say anything about developing pitchers? I’m talking about the finished products that they acquired and the major league pitchers that they refused to deal and subsequently fucked over due to lack of a realistic plan.

        • Robinson Tilapia

          Will any thread you start ever go differently than you making some ridiculously negative overgeneralization, about ten of us pointing out where you’re overgeneralizing, and you then replying with “uh…when did I say that?” or “uh…I didn’t say that.”

          That was a really long run-on sentence that was supposed to be a question, but sticking a question mark at the end of it doesn’t look aesthetically correct. Oh well.

          • Jimmy McNulty

            You’re reading things into what I’m saying that I didn’t say. I never said that they can’t develop pitching, although that’s a true statement, I said that they’re terrible at evaluating pitchers, and the way that they developed, scout, and evaluate pitchers needs to change.

            After the shitshow we saw with Hughes and Joba, you’re not going to say that the way they develop pitchers needs to change? Even Mike’s said that they had no real plan with either of the two.

            With the track record that this team has had with pitching you’re honestly telling me that they can properly evaluate pitchers, really? How much did they pay per batter faced for Feliciano and Marte? Even they waived the white flag on AJ Burnett basically paying well over half of his salary to take two pieces of garbage in return, you’re telling me that’s the mark of an organization that’s good at evaluating pitching?

            They really do suck at evaluating pitchers…I don’t see how anyone can disagree with this, you’re ignoring reality if you do. Does that mean they’re doomed? Well no, they’re great with hitters and they can afford enough of the slam dunk signings (Cliff Lee and CC) to where they can make up for fucking up the little ones. However, you’re living in a bubble if you don’t think that the league is getting more competitive, and one way the Yankees can deal with spending restrictions on the draft and IFA markets as well as other teams having more money to not only lock up their own guys but also compete in free agency is to improve the way that they evaluate pitching.

            • Robinson Tilapia

              I can look at any period of time over the course of the 30-something years I’ve been a fan and cite places where they’ve been good and bad at developing players, made dumb signings, traded prospects they should have kept, etc.

              How did you survive the late 80’s and early 90’s again?

            • Rookie

              Jimmy, my perception is that they were dreadful at evaluating pitchers prior to the 2010/2011 off season and that they were great from that period through the end of the 2011 season.

              That made me think they’d turned a corner and somehow dramatically improved their evaluation process. But some of the moves they’ve made since have me scratching my head and wondering whether they have or not — and worrying that the 2011 season may have been the outlier.

              I’m holding off drawing a conclusion until I see how their decisions play out at least through this season, if not longer.

    • Havok9120

      You seem rather angry today. Past experience tells me that on days when you’re angry, you aren’t worth debating as you’re more interested in insults and shouting your opinion than you are in discussing your thoughts. You want people to take you more seriously? Try being civil. It doesn’t even require politeness or respect. You can attack other peoples’ positions without attacking other people.

      • Robinson Tilapia

        …..or just wait for a thread with actual good news, during which the name “Jimmy McNulty” won’t show up.

        • Bo Knows

          +1

  • DM

    Just got the news. Yuck. At the very least you can’t expect him back (of course, he could but you can’t look at it that way if you’re Girardi). The only good news is that it was the same feeling rather than something worse or new. And I think Phil is in really good shape to start for a long time now.

    • Kevin Winters

      And I think Phil is in really good shape to start for a long time now.

      ———————

      Great :(

      • DM

        Yeah, I know. But we’re running out of arms. No overcrowding or “blocking” worries now. We’ll need them all now.

        • Ted Nelson

          There are still Phelps, Pettitte, Warren, Mitchell outside of their 5 (or 3) SPs… It’s not an embarrassment of riches anymore, but I’d hardly say that they’re running out of arms.

          I also don’t know why Girardi has to decide anything before Pineda’s examined. What value is there in that? Just wait and see what shakes out.

          • DM

            I should’ve said running out of arms with ML track records. And Girardi already echoed the sentiment I mentioned. It’s not about deciding anything yet; it’s about putting Pineda at the bottom of the queue. If they shut him down with the same issue, they’re starting the process all over again. And I’m sure they’ll be even more cautious in trying to ramp him up again. Even the best outcome of his next MRI will still result in more rest before moving forward even more carefully. The point being that they were expecting a contribution in a few more weeks or a month at most, but not now. No improvement in a month doesn’t inspire confidence in a resolution you can count on for this season. You just hope you get a pleasant surprise at some point — but it’s called a setback for a reason.

  • FachoinaNYY

    Dammit I was really starting to think we dodged a bullet.

    I’m really getting worried after hearing this.

  • Gonzo

    I think I just saw Andrew Marchand doing cartwheels on my street. Is that normal?

    • Robinson Tilapia

      I just saw Wally Matthews in a tutu on mine.

  • Robinson Tilapia

    Fine, I’ll bite.

    Suppose this guy’s got shoulders issues the Mariners may have had a clue to, but no structural damage, yadda yadda yadda. If something close to a worst case scenario happens here, I believe Axisa said yesterday there could be grounds for a grievance. Do we know of any precedent and what would this look like?

    It sucks. At the end of the day, since we acquired this guy, I’ve said what’s important is to develop two solid starters out of the crop of young pitchers the team currently has. It doesn’t matter to me which two they are. If Pineda fails but, say, DJ Mitchell surpasses his projections, I’m fine.

    • Derrick

      What grievance, if you are stupid enough to think a team would trade a pitcher averaging 94 as a starter who makes no money for no reason then it’s your fault.

      • Robinson Tilapia

        …..well, the grievance that one of the individuals running this blog referred there may be some minor grounds which I was just asking to hear more about. Sorry if that offended your…..wait, who are you?

        • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike Axisa

          If the Yankees think the Mariners sent them damaged goods, they can file a grievance. Reds did so with the Felipe Lopez/Austin Kearns trade a few years ago. The Yankees gave him a full physical and an MRI before the trade though, the grievance would be a waste of time.

          There is procedure in place for stuff like that, but it;s extremely unlikely to apply to the Yankees in this case.

      • Kevin

        Not so stupid when that team has the worst offense in the AL and needs a bat.

      • Ted Nelson

        Velocity alone is not an indication of performance.

        But, the Yankees gave up one of the top hitting prospects in the game for him… If anything you are stupid to trade hitting for pitching given the volatility of each.

  • qwerty

    I hated this trade the moment it was made, and not because I was so in love with Montero, but because I did my research on Pineda, and saw that the potential for burnout was thru the roof. I guess we know how this story ends.

  • chcmh

    I can’t believe how much the posters on this blog discuss Seattle Mariners players.

    • Ted Nelson

      Not like those players were Yankees a few months ago, right?

    • Midland TX

      They keep deleting my Miguel Olivo and Brendan Ryan posts!!!!!

  • Rookie

    I think the Yankees would be very wise to proceed with caution. In the only video I saw of Pineda, after he was sent to the minors and after he began his rehab, it seemed very apparent to me that he was very obviously wincing in pain after each pitch.

    As I’ve said before, Pineda probably thinks it’s in his best interest to hide his injury and see if he can’t get back to the majors quickly and continue to get service time and get closer to being arbitration eligible, etc.

  • ash ketchum

    cashman got ownd

    • Rookie

      I’m not prepared to conclude that it was a bad trade for the Yankees yet. The jury is still out on Pineda. (In fact, I don’t even think the jury has seen the evidence yet.) And Campos has done nothing so far but look like a stud. I don’t see how anyone can judge this trade until we know whether Campos gets to the majors and see how he performs.

      it’s not like we know yet how any of the other players in the trade will perform either — including Montero.

      All things considered, if Pineda can get back to being the pitcher he was in the first half of 2011 and sustain that performance for half a dozen or so years and Campos does the same, I would consider it to be a very good deal for the Yankees unless Montero hits like Piazza AND turns into an above average catcher — which I think is certainly possible, but not likely.

      All things considered, with Campos thrown in, I think the Yankees HAVE to make that trade every day and twice on Sunday. By the way, I think Noesi is a wild card, too. I have no idea whatsoever what to expect from him.

      Young high end pitchers are, of course, much more fragile than young, high end hitters, but they’re much more scarce, too. But again, if Montero turns out to have Piazza’s bat and be a very good defensive catcher, then that changes everything — because that may be the most scarce commodity of all.

      • qwerty

        The point isn’t to judge the trade in hindsight. Any fool can do that. That’s simply faulty logic. Pineda was in no way a risk free gamble. He only had two pitches, past elbow problems and a violent delivery that employed the inverted W motion. Not to mention, he showed signs of decreased velocity in teh second half. That’s a potential disaster right there. If Cashman wanted a pitcher for Montero why not trade Hughes, Montero, Romine, etc for Latos? There are many ways to judge this trade, and none of them include waiting 5 years down the road. It was a dumb at the time and it’s dumb now.

  • Chris

    Very upsetting news, extremely dissapointed to start but I don’t doubt his ability to become a front line starter but obviously I am a little worried about the shoulder issue. It’s frustrating as all hell but I’m surprised no one has mentioned at the way they handled his rehab. I’m most annoyed at that. 1. So he comes in overweight, ok something to monitor but i’ll let it slide. So now he’s with a trainer 24/7 and has a nutrionist watch everything he puts into his body. 2. His velo is down and was down from the second half of last year either because his body/arm was out of shape and or fatigued. Still pitched fine though so you can’t kill him on the velocity but if they traded for a guy who sits in the low 90’s with a plus slider and an average curveball than yeah, I think you can have a couple doubts about the way they evaluate pitching. But anyway, so they put him on the 15 day with tendonitis..why are they even rushing him back to pitch. 15 days he wouldn’t pick up a ball if I was the GM. He’d be working out and shedding more weight because this is the sole reason why everything has happened the way it’s happened. Until I felt secure about his body as a whole than he could move on to light tossing. As far as I knew based on the reading was that he threw a couple times off of flat ground, threw a TWENTY-SIX pitch bullpen in the next two days and was in a game not even a week later. Is there any thought process going on with this organization? I liked the trade when I first heard the news but I always heard Cashman say we need a front of the line starter and he was preaching paitience but was this the guy, was he the definite answer? That’s fine if they thought he was but they better have been 100% sure and if they did think this way, then treat him like that. Just overall, dissapointed on the Pineda front.

  • Mike P

    Good thing I just read a few of these comments, I hadn’t realized the MRI’s came back saying Pineda’s career was over. Man that Brian Cashman sucks at the GM gig, he was expecting Pineda to be a Yankee starter for years to come- fool! Next time a starter gets tendinitis, just release him – we now all know how that works.

    Oh, wait…

  • First time lawng time

    It feels so good to be a Yankee fan right now.

    Also, the fact that this is on national TV makes it even better.

  • matt s

    I had a feeling he would need surgery this year as this shoulder issue lingered. Obviously hasn’t been confirmed yet, but this is clearly not a good sign.
    I was against this trade from the beginning and while I cant entirely blame cashman I do wish he had known of the data in this article before making this trade:

    http://www.fangraphs.com/fanta.....nd-the-dl/

    Basically, Jeff Zimerman at fangraphs shows which pitchers are likely to hit the DL based on % of sliders thrown last year.

  • Celerino Sanchez

    Mark my words. This guy will never be a major pitcher for the Yankees. This is Humberto Sanchez redux. Though Pineda has the one year of MLB service time it feels the same. This may end up as one of the worst deals in the Cashman era unless Campos turns out to be a star.

    • http://www.twitter.com/WashngtonYankee Alex C.

      Dude, just chill. It might, it might not.

  • pistol pete

    Seattle dumping a stud major league front line starter for an unproven catcher/dh with a huge upside was suspect from the start. Everyone here is dumping on Pineda’s ability when the reason he’s not pitching has nothing to do with ability but everything to do with health. Hard to believe the Mariner’s didn’t know there was a hole in Pineda. Nobody trades a frontline AllStar caliber pitcher under control for no money for five years for a bat, an unproven bat at that, nobody. Pineda’s now had elbow and shoulder problems before he’s 24 years old and appears suspect as a hard worker based on how he arrived at camp. Can’t see this one with a happy ending.

  • pistol pete

    Campos is tearing up Single a with a .56 era and 3 and 0 record. Hitters are batting less tha 100 against him. He may save the Pineda deal.

  • celerino sanchez

    Dye contrast MRI? why didn’t he have this the first time around? Do the Yankees have some crappy HMO where they needed pre-approval? This type of stuff (if true) always leaves me scratching my head.