Cashman talks Granderson and Cano, long-term

Sabathia makes adjustment to dominate Braves
Poll: Rafael Soriano's Opt-Out Clause
(AP Photo/Kathy Kmonicek)

The 2014 payroll plan is looming, and while the short-term right field and catcher situations are front and center given the impending free agencies of Nick Swisher and Russell Martin, the long-term Robinson Cano and Curtis Granderson situations are a much more serious issue. The team’s two best hitters each have no-brainer club options for 2013 that will be picked up before qualifying for free agency after next season, right when the team is looking to get under that $189M luxury tax threshold.

During an appearance on MLB Network Radio, Brian Cashman told Jim Bowden that although contract extension talks with the two sluggers have not taken place, though the team hopes to keep both players in pinstripes well into the future. Here’s the quote…

Wanting to keep them both long-term and actually keeping both long-term are two entirely different things. I’m sure the Yankees wanted to add a young power pitcher and keep Jesus Montero this offseason, but sometimes you have to give to get.

I’m definitely in the “let Cano walk” camp, at least right now. I reserve the right to change my mind over the next 16 months. He’s going to be 31 years old when he signs his new contract and most middle infielders — particularly second baseman who have to make the blind double play pivot — tend to decline quickly in their mid-to-early-30s. If the Yankees want to get serious about being smarter and more efficient, then not locking up players at big money through their decline years is the first step. Robinson didn’t hire Scott Boras last year because he was looking to take a hometown discount, remember.

The development of the pitching staff figures to have the greatest impact on the Yankees’ ability to keep both Cano and Granderson around long-term. If Michael Pineda comes back from shoulder surgery well, they’ll have an above average and cheap rotation arm to pair with Ivan Nova. If he comes back a dud, they’re going to have to change course and possibly dramatically. I’ve said this before, but getting under the luxury tax threshold in 2014 is going to require some creativity and a lot of tough decisions, particularly with these two left-handed mashers.

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Sabathia makes adjustment to dominate Braves
Poll: Rafael Soriano's Opt-Out Clause
  • Will

    Keep Cano and Grandy. Let Swisher, Kuroda and Martin walk. Sign Hamels. Boom.

    • JohnnyC

      Test takers must always carefully double-check their math.

    • http://www.twitter.com/_swarlesbarkley Drew

      Who the starting catcher? Who’s playing RF in that scenario? It’s really easy to say yeah let’s sign this guy and let everyone else walk but you have to find VIABLE replacements.

      • Will The Thrill

        Chris Stewart/Romine platoon for catcher. As for RF a trade would be ideal. Maybe for someone like Josh Reddick, Shin Soo Choo, or David DeJesus.

        • Sweet Dick Willie

          Josh Reddick is a young, cost controlled OF. What do you think Billy Beane would demand for him in a trade?

          Shin Soo Choo will be a FA in 2014, the year that all of this becomes a problem.

          DeJesus will be 33 next year, and has an option for $6.5 mil, in addition to whatever prospects Theo will ask for in return.

          See, it’s not easy being Cashman.

        • Havok9120

          Romine? He might not play a single game this year and Stewart is a worse hitter AND worse defender than Martin. You’re effectively using a career backup and a AA guy as the MLB team’s starter

          Choo isn’t going anywhere. Reddick and DeJesus are almost certainly for sale but I’m not sure at prices the Yanks should want to pay.

          • Adam

            Stewart isn’t that terrible. I like him for clutch situations. Russell Martin has more of the brawn in home run hitting than Stewart, yes, but Chris Stewart in my book has been our most excellent pick up of the season.

            • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike Axisa

              I like him for clutch situations.

              He’s hitting .227/.227/.227 with RISP. Stewart’s terrible and thinking he’s been “our most excellent pick up of the season” is lunacy, quite frankly. The Yankees should be looking for an upgrade, not reveling in his three timely hits in April.

              • Yankeefan Arod Fan

                i rather have my Friend Ronny Paulino Then Stewart

                • Stan the Man

                  Russell Martin is garbage. He can’t hit over .240 and his defense is avg at best. The Yanks didn’t make a trade for Stewart because of offense they did it for defense. Defense comes first at that spot and if you have a .220 hitter then take the savings and keep a guy who will cost you 750K instead of $8 million. Pretty simple.

      • Gonzo

        Starting catcher is Travis d’Arnaud and RF is Bryce Harper.

        Boom!

    • Robinson Tilapia

      Pants accident or something? I heard a “boom” at the end of that.

      A lot of loose ends that would need to be tied which were already well stated above me. Good luck acquiring Josh Reddick, though.

      • Robinson Tilapia

        I made fun of the boom, but I do agree with a large chunk of this. I just have zero answers as to RF if Swisher walks.

        • http://fendersonandhampton.com Cuso

          Heh. you said “chunk”

    • Boom

      You’re hurting my reputation.

  • Gonzo

    I’m all for letting someone else sign players on the wrong side of 30 camp. I just don’t see the FO letting Cano go.

  • JohnC

    Cano will be 31. Granderson will be 33 when FA hits. I keep Cano and let Grandy walk if we can’t keep both. Maybe after this season, Yanks pick up the options and shop Granderson to see what they can get for him, like they did with Sheffield a few years ago.

    • Gonzo

      I’m not positive because my memory is getting sketchy. Wasn’t the Sheffield trade more of a reaction to his unhappiness to not being offered an extension?

      • AndrewYF

        That was part of it, but a bigger part was that the Yankees already had a RFer – Abreu – for the next several years.

        • Gonzo

          Forgot they overlapped because of Sheffield’s injury. Thanks.

      • MannyGeee

        right… if memory serves, he was traded in part based on redundancy (Abreu), in part b/c he didnt want to play first (using ‘play’ loosely), and in part for his general sense of malcontent.

        and also, we found a sucker to take the whole contract and give us something in return…

        • http://fendersonandhampton.com Cuso

          Yeah. Humberto Sanchez. That worked.

          • All Praise Be To Mo

            Argue the results, not the process, we traded a malcontent extra piece for a top 100 prospect. Everyone here would make that deal all over again, it happens, pitching prospects flame out.

    • Johnny O

      There won’t be any offers for granderson that will now, or probably ever, provide the offense he will provide in 2013. this is still the yankees and they would like to win. they’re not dumping grandy no matter how many top 100 prospects they get. they might not re-sign him, and i’d be ok with that, but they’re not going to sell him either.

  • Typical MIT Nerd

    Glad to see you coming around on Cano, Mike. There were many folks who loved Soriano and actually derided A-Rod. 2Bs who hit but have trouble with the glove are not that uncommon. The Yankees may have a few in their system already.

    Don’t get me wrong. I really like Cano. Let’s see how he plays over the next 2.5 years before we get all worked up about what he should or shouldn’t make. Boras will take him to free agency regardless.

    • JohnnyC

      Just like Boras took Jared Weaver to free agency. Poor Angels.

      • 28 this year

        Boras represented Weaver from the start like pre draft and Weaver pushed for the extension with the Angels. In Cano’s situation, he fired his old agent and hired Boras last year or the year before. When someone switches to Boras just a couple years from free agency it speaks volumes. Look beyond the surface and you’ll actually see the truth more often.

        • JohnnyC

          Thanks for the advice, man. You’re a pip.

          • jsbrendog

            he’s also right. the one example you cited is the anomaly and exception. weaver basically told boras youre my agent, shuttup and get it done.

    • AndrewYF

      The myth that Cano is somehow Soriano-esque at 2B is utterly ridiculous. Stop the slavish devotion to UZR – Cano is a damn good 2B-man.

      • thenamestsam

        Exactly. UZR is a very valuable tool, but it has known issues and shouldn’t be used as the be-all and end-all of fielding analysis. My eyes tell me that Cano is an excellent fielder, so why does he rate poorly by UZR?

        Cano is one of the smoothest players out there. He frequently makes the game of baseball look effortless. His range as a defensive player is the same way. He gets to balls(particularly up the middle and charging) that are tough to get to, but he always makes them look simple. This is exactly the kind of defender who gets underrated by stringer-based fielding metrics. If you make a play look easy the stringer recording the data is more likely to think that it WAS easy and record the location of the ball as closer to you. Conversely “max effort” guys who make even simple plays look heroic (think Pedroia) are overrated by UZR.

        If we look at metrics that don’t use batted ball data (like FRAA) Cano grades out as a well above-average defender (40 runs above average for his career). Given that it coincides with what our eyes are telling us, and that we have a good reason for thinking the UZR data may be biased in this case, I think it’s fair to say that Cano is a good defe4nsive player.

        • MannyGeee

          “Cano is one of the smoothest players out there. He frequently makes the game of baseball look effortless”

          UZR grades on effort exuded on routine to slightly tough plays. This is why the UZR gods smite Cano and his non-chalant style of play, yet they shine down on Pedroia jumping around like a spider monkey on Red Bull and Meth…

          #truestory

          • Cris Pengiucci

            Pedroia jumping around like a spider monkey on Red Bull and Meth…

            IETC.

            • Easy E

              Solution: More dives.

              Sure it’ll turn Cano into the rickety old 2B we fear he’ll be, without signs that is of course, but it’ll put our UZR nightmares to rest.

              • http://www.workwithpete.com Pete

                +1

          • Jamey

            Yeah UZR is like a school naming the kid that never missed a day of school valedictorian instead of the straight A student who took off Senior Skip Day.

            • Jamey

              should have prefaced that by saying I think Cashman needs to be very careful with how he negotiates with Cano, my worry is purely about a potentially overpaid Cano turning into A-Rod circa 2011-2012 in a time when that salary actually matters.

              Sad as it is that Cano’s prime years only resulted in 1 World Series appearance/win (so far) but he’s not Jeter, even OLD Jeter so Cashman needs to keep that in mind.

              • Steve (different one)

                It’s sad that he “only” won one WS before he turned 30? And people say Yankee fans are spoiled.

                • Jamey

                  I put appearance first for a reason, but thanks anyway.

                  • All Praise Be To Mo

                    Yea, since 1 player can determine if a team reaches the World Series.

                    • Jamey

                      Dear lord, find me the part of either of my comments where I was bemoaning Robinson Cano for not helping The Yankees win more. I said it was sad that Cano’s prime years (which coincided with a Yankees team boasting $200+ million payrolls) had him playing in just 1 World Series in a time frame where the Cardinals, Phillies & Rangers all appeared twice. When one of the best players in the game is on a team with a payroll like that you’d hope for more than 1 appearance, & using that fact to point out why Cashman will have considerably less “TRUE YANKEE” pressure to have to overpay to keep him in pinstripes.

        • Adayoff

          Speaking of UZR, take a look at Granderson. Rated just about the worst defensive outfielder in MLB. A lot of weird routes lately. Granted, he is as athletic as any other outfielder on balls that he gets to. Makes you wonder about flipping him and Gardner between LF and CF

          • King of Fruitless Hypotheticals

            Can’t remember where, but somebody was saying LF in YSIII is nearly as big as CF. I wonder if having Gardner in LF is actually better?

    • Gonzo

      Isn’t the real problem if he plays lights out the next year and half? Kinda like how A-Rod performed in 2007 helped him get the contract he has today?

    • http://www.secondavenuesagas.com Benjamin Kabak

      2Bs who hit but have trouble with the glove are not that uncommon.

      Is this really an accurate description of Cano? I don’t see that at all.

      • CountryClub

        No, it is not.

      • Paul VuvuZuvella

        If by “trouble with the glove” he means Robbie just can’t get that salsa verde stain out, then maybe.

  • TheOneWhoKnocks

    I’m also in the let cano walk camp.

    Depending on Grandersons demands I might opt to let him walk as well.

    I do think the Yankees will end up keeping both players, and outbidding all other teams in the process. Business as usual. They’ll try to resign Cano and Granderson and then skimp on other areas of the team to get under $189

  • steve s

    If the choice is keeping Cano or Grandy I think it’s a no-brainer in favor of keeping Cano. Cano is built like a linebacker, not a second basemen, so the argument that he will succumb to middle-infielder decline is not such a great risk IMO (and I’m not sure that there really is any empirical basis to the middle-infielder decline theory in any event; doesn’t seem to have affected Jeter to any great extent but I’m sure there are examples pro and con on that). On the other hand Grandy seems to have lost a step or two this year already and when his inevitable power decline occurs (think Bernie Williams at age 34) he really will not be worth the money it will take to sign him to a multi-year deal.

    • Gonzo

      You can look up some 2B and go by age they started to decline and size. Off of the top of my head I think Biggio and Joe Morgan as two guys that would say you don’t need to be built like a linebacker. I think Jeff Kent would say that you do. I’m not sold on size being a determining factor.

      • steve s

        Good points. I was thinking of Utley when I made my comment and I don’t see Cano ever being as fragile as Utley. Willie Randolph is probably a good example of a guy who wore out early at around 32 due to middle infield decline (but with good reason after the way McRae use to go after him; it does seem that in the Randolph era (and pre-Willie) runners went in harder to 2nd base than they do now (Pete Rose for sure) but that’s purely an anecdotal memory).

        • Gonzo

          Well, Utley’s knee kills his value as a data sample for me. BTW, wouldn’t that be a great name for a Phillies Blog?

          Chase Utley’s Knee

          • Easy E

            I’d go with Chase Ugh-Knee

    • Cris Pengiucci

      With the option of movng Cano to 3B and having ARod as a full time DH, I’d lean in favor of keeping Cano if a choice has to be made. However, this is my thinking in a vacuum. we really need to see the contract demands. I’m hoping they can keep both (and Swish and Martin for another 2-3 years), but this seems to be wishful thinking based on the $189M slef-iimposed budget.

    • Dan

      If you read the article, the decline wouldn’t effect Jeter because he is on the other side of second base. Secondbasemen are more susceptible to injury because of the blind throw to 1st when they come across the bag to turn a double-play and get slid into.

      • steve s

        I agree with your second sentence but Mike did write “most middle infielders” so the reference to Jeter seems appropriate (especially since he’s been known to give up his body more than most and is still performing pretty well at his advanced age).

        • Dan

          Right, but he does focus on 2nd baseman, and he is right in that there aren’t too many shortstops that sustain their success into their mid-30’s. Also, up until his adjustment that he made last year most people had started to write Jeter off as he was struggling. The issue is that in all likelihood there are going to be teams willing to give Cano 6-7 years and in the range of $120-140 mil.

    • MannyGeee

      also, playing for the entire season to date might slow down even a player of Granderson’s caliber.

  • AndrewYF

    You would rather sign Granderson, who is 18 months older than Cano, to (at the VERY least) a 5 year, $100M+ contract…a player who has severe contact issues that will never be corrected, and whose defense relies on pure speed (note that he’ll have to be moved to RF sooner rather than later)? And who is two years removed from being a glorified platoon player?

    Rather than Cano, a fanastic contact hitter, a power-hitting middle infielder, whose defense is pure arm strength and instinct, and has shown no signs he will have to be moved anytime soon? I guess if he’s asking for a $200M contract, you may have a point, but Pujols had to get a 10-year deal to get $200M. Cano is a star, but he’s not Pujols. Granderson over Cano. You’re weird, Mike.

    • Dan

      His argument makes sense… Try to find a good hitting 2B that was able to maintain it into his mid to late 30’s. Cano might have another 2-3 years of success after signing his next contract, but the odds aren’t in his favor. Outfielders tend to have greater longevity, and as far as a decrease in range, the Yankee will most likely switch Granderson and Gardner at that point. Granderson does strikeout a lot, but he has also become one of the top power hitters in the league and that most likely will not go away. Its also laughable that he would become a platoon player, as since he made his adjustments he hasn’t had problems with left-handed pitching and he has a higher average against them this year than RHP.

    • jsbrendog

      who has the most hr in all of major league baseball since first pitch of 2011? go ahead, look it up. i’ll wait…

      the sss is now a bss

      • AndrewYF

        I never doubted his power.

  • Biggest Yankee Fan

    I know this may not be reality but — keep them both! Ignore the luxury tax. We’re the damn Yankees!

    • Manny’s BanWagon

      +1

    • Robinson Tilapia

      What does Ted Nugent have to do with any of this?

  • smurfy

    I would solve the dilemma by making a very generous offer for a limited, reasonable term. Say, $20 per for five for Robbie, $15 for 4 for Curtis. And let the chips fall.

    Halladay and Lee both took such reasonable deals, rather than trying to max dollars, and float to some team.

    • Mr. December

      smurfy…..You are spot on!Think Ryan Howard. Yes I know he suffered a severe injury but that is out of the teams control. 4 years $25 million/per.

      • Johnny O

        ryan howard’s extension is NOT the example we’d like to follow.

        • AJavierkei Pavagawnett

          No way Granderson takes 60 over 4 years. That’s what Nick Swisher is hoping for.

  • Bubba

    It sucks but let them both walk. I just don’t think either of them will sign a reasonable contract.

  • Bo Knows

    I doubt Cano is going to decline as rapidly as you seem to think, unlike most 2B he doesn’t get hit by opposing players when turning his plays, rarely has to dive (unlike the gritty magical elf) his body doesn’t see the damage other players in his position do.

    • Gonzo

      Even if you are sold on the fact that he won’t suffer above average 2b decline, you still should factor in “normal” decline. Do you still want to pay ~$20mm for a player’s age 31 through ~36 seasons?

  • DERP

    I am like 99.9% sure that Cano will be resigned.

    • Robinson Tilapia

      As am I.

  • AJavierkei Pavagawnett

    I’d be OK with $100/5 for Cano with maybe a team option or production-based 6th year. You figure you get 2-3 good years out of him at $25-30 per, before he starts falling off, and then maybe you move him to 3rd where’s he appropriately priced at $10-15 a year.

    If it gets into a 7 or 8 year thing for $120 or even $150 plus, no way.

    I love Cano, but after 2013 we’ll have had 9 years of him relatively cheaply. Why throw a ton of money at him for his past performance?

    Granderson, same thing. 5 years for the guy max, figuring what he provides the next 2-3 years is worth the back end decline.

    I would much, much rather have Cole Hamels than either of these guys if the contract approaches $150 (or even if Hamels is north of this). The probability that Hamels is elite over 6 or 7 years is much higher than Granderson or Cano.

    Ugh, a rotation fronted by Sabathia and Hamels would just be awesome.

    • craig

      If they go with Hamels, perhaps they could move some pitching for a cost-controlled outfielder, 2B or catcher to replace the pieces they will have to let go.

  • nsalem

    How about slowly phasing Cano into an outfield position as time goes by. He would probably be at worst a competent left fielder. History shows he will not be able to play second base past 33 or 34, but at 31, there is a good chance he will remain an offensive force for at least another 6 or 7 years.

    • AJavierkei Pavagawnett

      Or move him to third.

      • http://twitter.com/#!/OneJay76 OneJay76

        You read my mind AJP. He could definitely move to third as he ages, and A-Rod ages himself out.

        If I had to choose one in the debate, I would go with Cano. There’s no place to put a CF as he gets older. Cano could slide over to third easily, and like “nsalem” said he could still be an offensive force for years to come.

        • Dan

          CF could move to LF reducing the amount of ground he has to cover. I could see them switching him and Gardner, or maybe when/if Mason Williams makes it to the majors they can move him to LF then.

        • Steve (different one)

          Huh? There is left field. Or right field. Granderson’s bat easily plays in a corner. Strange comment.

          • http://twitter.com/#!/OneJay76 OneJay76

            You could have said “dumb” comment, Steve – thanks for not saying that. Of course he could move to a corner spot.

            However, I’d still stick with Cano long-term over Grandy.

  • Reggie C.

    I guess nobody is biting on going after CarGo, which would make easier a decision to let one of the two current Yankees walk.

    • Gonzo

      Carlos Gonzalez? He’s a free agent in 2018. I’m not sure the Yanks have the guns to pull off that trade either.

      • Reggie C.

        I’m just working off yesterday’s Joel Sherman article in which he named a couple players who “should” be traded for the betterment of the respective team. That’s all.

        • Gonzo

          He said that?

  • coloradoyank

    Seems that Cano could make the move to 3rd if the 2nd base defense becomes an issue – arm strenght would play there. Arod will DH’ing more and more each year. Could be a gradual shift. I would rather do a 5 year deal for Cano than a 5 year deal for Granderson. Not sure what either will be looking for. If Grandy is willing to take a 3 year deal while Cano is looking at 6 years, than I’ll take Granderson.

  • Gonzo

    Hey RAB guys, idea for a future post here. Probably for way in the future.

    The aging curve for hitters like Cano in ages 31 through 36. Maybe like Ichiro and Vlad maybe? Who else?

    • CountryClub

      Here’s a great post from Joe Posnanski about how poorly most great players age.

      http://joeposnanski.blogspot.c.....chart.html

      • Gonzo

        Joe Pos has some great articles. Thanks.

      • Gonzo

        I’ve actually read this one before. I meant specifically to Cano’s hitting style as opposed to all great players though.

        • CountryClub

          Oh I understand. But it does make a strong case that players fall off a rather steep cliff.

          • Gonzo

            I totally agree.

  • MBN

    I would let one of the 2 walk. It depends if guys like Adams or Joseph become a viable 2B replacement in the next 1.5 years. Then Cano can walk, as anyone who hires Boras during a current contract is looking for a huge payday. Boras is going to look for one of those 7 year – $150 million+ deals. At least. Especially if Robbie continues to put up the numbers he has the past couple of seasons.

    Granderson may be tougher to replace, as first we need an OF for Swisher, next season. I do not see anyone in the system ready at this time. I would hope that Zolio can be ready by 2014, but that may be wishful thinking. Mason and the other guys in Charleston or lower are not going to be ready by 2014.

    We would be in excellent shape if the luxury tax threshold of $189 million was for 2015 instead of 2014.

  • CountryClub

    I see a bunch of people talking about a 5 yr deal for Cano at around 100 mil. I wouldnt love that deal, but I would do it if I were the Yanks. The problem is that he’s not taking a 5 yr deal. He’s going to get 7 or 8 yr offers from other teams. And if I were the Yanks, I’d have to walk away from 7/140 or 8/160.

    • Gonzo

      Would you walk from a 6/120 though?

    • Cris Pengiucci

      Really? You think there are teams out there willing to invest in Cano through his 38 or 39 year old season for that much money? I know more teams seem to be spending more money, but I’m nost sure if it will continue and if there’s a team out there that would pull the trigger on Cano. Which teams need a 2B or some other position that Cano can move into that have that much cash?

      • Gonzo

        The Blue Jays sign Darvish and Cano on the same day with all that Rogers Communication money! Then they trade for Gavin Floyd.

      • CountryClub

        Yes, I think at least 1 team would throw that kind of deal at him. I’d actually be shocked if they didn’t.

  • viridiana

    I say sign Swisher first. That way Yanks are not over a barrel next year and desperate to sign Robby/Grandy. Also sets us up well for next year as we have no one on horizon to take Swish’s place.
    By 2014, it’s possible Mason may be able to step in for Grandy. Cano tough to replace but we may have some maturing options by then. So if only two of these three can be signed — sign Swish even though he is likely the lesser of the three. Then at least you have some negotiating leverage and can choose between Cano and Granderson.

    • Smart Guy

      CoJo or Adams to replace cano!!!!

      do it cashman

    • CountryClub

      Well, you could let Swish walk and replace him with Grandy. He’s going to move to right eventually. I’m not saying I would do this, just saying it’s a legit option.

  • Smart Guy

    let cano walk , if he wants to be a long time yankee like he says he wants to he comes back for a hometown discount, if not good bye, so long fair well

    theres a better chance of keeping grandy on a fair contract than cano, trade cano to the cubs for everything they have and problem solved.

    as for catcher i have no doubt they will bring back martin since the options are slim unless they decide to take a hit on offense and just give that role to a cervelli who isnt that bad of an option but then you have to bring back swisher otherwise you are potentially finding a stop gap thats not that good to play RF and your lineup might show some NL looking bottom 3 to top with a declining arod jeter and teix on the top

    sniff it yankee fans, unless the yankees forget the 189 or make some creative trades the yankees look to be going on the wrong side :D

    • Easy E

      Yeah, he should take a hometown discount like Jeter.. Oh, wait.

  • Rich in NJ

    If they aren’t going to re-sign/extend Cano and/or Granderson, they should see what kind of young assets they could get back in a trade. Not that they should definitely trade either or both, but they should gauge their market value.

    That said, it’s incomprehensible that they wouldn’t try to extend either or both now. I have to believe that misguided policy decision is on ownership, since virtually all big money issues reside there.

  • Nick

    Serious question:

    Under the luxury tax, would it be better to have Cano for, say, 5/100 or 7/115?

    The longer deal spreads the cost over more years for the tax but involves the player taking a hit on $ per year in exchange for the longer contract. The shorter deal eases worries about a players’ decline but rewards player with more $ per year for a shorter contract. The longer deal might seem a bargain if a club is willing to take a shot on sustained performance whilst shorter deal would hurt a lot more for the luxury tax.

    Thoughts?

    • Smart Guy

      thoughts:

      – Robinson Cano – 7 years 115? hahaha he tolkin true?
      – Scott Boras : let me handle this cano.
      * opens chart that shows cano as an asset on defense and offense and as a role model in NYC, also opens 5 charts displaying the revenue power of keeping long term cano and how they would gain financial profit from endorsements and the dominican community.
      – Scott Boras : now Cashman, lets not lowball us now, we have 6 teams calling and a Mystery team waiting to swoop in. we want 8 years 8 years $186M

      • Smart Guy

        Only on Jes!

  • JohnC

    I don’t see Adams or Joseph as Cano’s replacement. Adams is too fragile. Joseph is not that good defensively. In fact, some scouts think he is better suited for 3rd then 2nd cause of his lack of mobility. 2nd baseman of the future could be Angelo Gumbs, a terrific athlete, but he is still raw and is about 4 years away. I do think Mason Williams can be up here in 2 years so he could replace Granderson.

    • Smart Guy

      why do people think Mason replaces granderson only cause he plays CF, if anything Mason replaces gardner, Masons bat isnt replacing granderson

      • viridiana

        Nobody is likely to replace Grandy’s bat– not too many 40 HR a year CFs. But Mason will probably imprive defense and will become an instant threat on bases. He may not be fully mature as a hitter in 2014 but because of his defense and speed he’ll still be an asset. You look to replace Grandy’s bat elsewhere in lineup.

    • Robinson Tilapia

      And Miguel Andujar can just step in at third!

      #longwaytogo

      • Gonzo

        The entire Charleston team as it is comprised now will lead the Yankees to 5 straight WS titles. No need to worry.

        • Robinson Tilapia

          The real question is why aren’t they doing it NOW!

          • Smart Guy

            reading twitter i found that cashman has thought about it but they all failed the box jumping requirement

        • Cris Pengiucci

          With the follow-on players coming from this season’s SI & GCL teams. 10 – 15 more years of domination, beginning as they start coming up to the MLB in ’14 (yes, they’re that good!) :-)

  • Mike

    I think the Yanks should look into Hunter Pence of the Phils….. i don’t think it would take much to get him…..Swishers replacement next season.

    • Smart Guy

      banuelos + Cojo + an A player

      • Mike

        man !….. I can’t do that. not for Pence.

        • Smart Guy

          if I have pence why would i ask for anything less than that!

          • Mike

            If you replace ManBan for Bentences then im thinking hard about it ….. Who would the A player be ???

            • Smart Guy

              the philly GM doesnt want to help you, hes not thinking shucks , yankee fans like banuelos and want to keep him, lets take the more erratic betances as the main focus of a pence trade.

    • hatfield

      Mike wanted a Cuddyer contract for Swisher. How about trading for Cuddyer? Rockies aren’t going anywhere this year. Get Cuddyer at the trading deadline, DFA Jones and let Swish walk.

  • Robinson Tilapia

    I could see them trying to piecemeal RF and C for a year or two and letting Swish and Martin walk in order to have the flexibility for Robbie and Granderson. Whether they should or not is another thing. I honestly don’t have a strong feeling about any of it and find both the pros and cons to keeping every one of thse guys to have validity. Certainly, there’s an emotional connection to Cano. I have a hard time imagining the New York Yankees allowing a homegrown guy like Cano just walk, no matter what the evidence of future decline seems to indicate or how many “it’s a business” comments you see on a blog.

    • Smart Guy

      other than pettitte who they were right cause they thought he had health issues, who else have the yankees let go just like that in their prime? cant think of anyone

      • Robinson Tilapia

        I can’t think of anyone since I’ve been a fan that just walked and didn’t have either injury concerns or had burned a bridge.

        • King of Fruitless Hypotheticals

          My first thought is Bernie. Please don’t correct my memories with your facts…

          • Robinson Tilapia

            We’re talking in their prime. As a matter of fact, Bernie is a perfect example of when they didn’t let a guy walk, lest we forget him dangling a contract with the Sx in front of the team.

  • Chris

    My ticket prices better go down if they institute this austarity measure to get under the 189 phantom cap. I have no problem paying for my seats but if MLB wants to target the Yankees and their spending then they have got to pass on the savings. They have the right to make money, all the money they want but because MLB is trying to first hand effect the product the Yanks put on the field then I don’t think its fair for the fans to pay prices that reflect what the Yankees WANTED to spend.

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike Axisa

      Ticket prices are based on supply and demand, not the team’s payroll.

      • Robinson Tilapia

        With “Supply” and “Demand” being two IFAs the Yankees won’t be able to afford under the new austeriry measures. Damn you, Greece!

      • Chris

        Thats not true at all. The price is in part due to demand but the first thing that goes into the price is the break even price. What do they need to charge to break even? If they are making proffit on every ticket at 70% of its face value then they have 30% to play with. If their expenses go down by 20-25 million dollars then each ticket goes further. The money they pocket goes up because costs went down.

        Based on the attendence figures this year I’d say demand is down a bit anyway.

        • Gonzo

          This is based on what now?

  • blake

    “He’s going to be 31 years old when he signs his new contract and most middle infielders — particularly second baseman who have to make the blind double play pivot — tend to decline quickly in their mid-to-early-30s.”

    historically this is true….but I think a big reason why is because most 2nd baseman historically haven’t been very good to begin with especially offensively. A player like Cano is extremely rare at the position…..his plate discipline worries me more about decline than what position he plays. That said….they should keep him if the contract is within reason as he’s their best player…..and they should already be talking extension with him to try and get a reasonable deal.

  • David Ortizs Dealer

    I’d love Cano to stay, the focused for 9 innings guy, he takes too many plays /AB’s off coupled with post prime of career time to invest in too heavily.

  • DJ4K&Monterowasdinero

    Sign them both until they are 40.

    Sincerely,
    Andy, Raul and Mo

    • Smart Guy

      get creative, sign Cano to a 40 year contract, noones turning down job security for 40 years in this economy

      40/$400M by the year 2052 10 million a year would be chump change while baseball players robotic hands would each requite Tommy john reprogramming for 80m each

      • Robinson Tilapia

        Just think of the money you’d make back watching Robinson Cano and his grandson, Robmelky Cano, play in the same lineup.

  • LiterallyFigurative

    A few things:

    Why would Swisher take less than 15 mil per, and for 3 years (like some people are floating)? Look at what Corner Outfielders are getting nowadays. Jason Bay, Andre Ethier, Jason Werth. Their AAV’s are 16 and up. You could argue Swisher isn’t that good, but why take a discount?

    Plus, I’m not a big Swisher guy. I think he’s slightly overrated offensively and not good enough defensively to offset. It’s one thing to steal him for Wilson Betemit and go year to year with him. Its quite another to lock him up for 5 years at 75 mil plus.

    You could worry about Cano’s decline as a middle infielder. But he’s not every other middle infielder. He has no long injury history, and he’s a .300/30/100 2B with True Yankee status (which will matter to the FO). He’s going to get at least 20 mil per. I would try and lock him up this offseason 7/140. He can be your 3B when he declines in 5 years. All contracts are risks. I would take the risk on elite players at hard to replace positions.

    Granderson’s age and contact/hitting style worry me long-term. He strikes out a ton now, that can only get worse. But it’s hard to replace 40 Hrs. It’s a good thing he’s the #2 hitter. If he were the #4 hitter, he’d have more RBI’s and then be even more impossible to sign. He’ll cost you 20 mil per. A power guy who plays a premium defensive position will cost you.

    The Yanks will have around 65 to 70 million to spend (When you take into consideration the guys already signed, assuming a DRob extension and having a market-rate setup guy, etc.). So there are a myriad of ways to allocate the funds.

    • Smart Guy

      im not reading all that, ted mosby!

    • DJ4K&Monterowasdinero

      I knew Girardi was brilliant by not batting our best HR hitter 3rd or 4th. Always watching the company’s bottom line. It’s in the binder!

  • King of Fruitless Hypotheticals

    help me with the math…if Cano still hits well but loses a step, on a 5 year contract we can’t even let him DH cause we’ve still got Arod, right?

    Damn.

    • Smart Guy

      unless arod suddenly retires because of mad centaur disease, we live in 2012, Im sure some scientist can come up with it and Clemens ex trainer can inject arod with it while he sleeps, wont even know someone did it.

  • King of Fruitless Hypotheticals

    Let Swisher walk, Granderson to left, Gardner in center, Jeter to right, Nunez to short, Cano to 1st, trade Tex for spare parts and salary relief, Romine to catch if Martin can’t be resigned at a reasonable rate.

    Holy crap…that’s just batshit insane–you know how long it took to come up with something that bizarre? And some of you do it on a regular basis. Damn.

  • Christopher

    I think Cano is a monster and monsters don’t grow on trees. Granderson is his twin monster in center field. Granderson improves every single year. This year he’s moved the ball toward left quite nicely. Did we expect that? It’s getting next to impossible to set a defense against either Cano or Granderson. They are the core of this franchise over the next five years. Period. I haven’t a clue how Cashman pulls it off, but letting either walk is not a viable option if the Yankees intend to stay contenders. Martin and Swish, of course, they can be replaced, but not Granderson and Cano.

    • Smart Guy

      they grow out of the creative intelligence of Disney and the help of pixar.

    • nsalem

      Good Stuff, Christopher!!!!

    • Reggie C.

      Thank the good Mo a mechanism called trading exists.

    • BK2ATL

      Completely agree.

      I’d offer Cano a deal with an AAV at approx. $18-19 million over 5 years, so $90-95 million. Kinsler’s deal is 5 yrs, $85 million with an option for a 6th year. This is the current standard for 2B. This projected deal would make Cano the highest paid 2B in MLB. He could easily slide over to 3B at some point during that contract. If he rejects it, well then, farewell Robbie and plan B is needed.

      I’d offer Grandy a deal with an AAV somewhere in the same range. $18-19 million AAV over 4 years. Within that timeframe, we could reasonably switch Grandy and Gardner in the OF.

      We currently have nothing in the system to come close to replacing either player. BOTH are our future mid-lineup offense in 2014, with both Tex and A-Rod already in decline in the middle of the order.

      While we have significant pieces farther down on the farm, if Joel Sherman’s on to something, I’m wondering what it would take to get a Carlos Gonzalez from the Rockies to just absorb the blow from Swisher’s loss. His AAV is only $11.43 million.

  • Anthony

    I don’t know if anybody already said this, but it seems to me that the way Girardi uses Granderson might tell you what Cashman is thinking. It’s kind of a conspiracy theory, but it makes sense. Cashman tells Girardi, “Hey, we’re not gonna keep this guy long term. Play him every day.” I’m sure they would care if he gets hurt, but it’s the home stretch as far as his contract goes. I doubt that would happen, really. It’s just an intriguing idea.

  • Reggie C.

    Cashman isn’t losing anything by saying he “wants” them both back. The team won’t budge from its no extensions policy so the words are pretty empty. Cano is gearing up to play hardball now that he’s a Boras client, a fact that Cashman cant very well discuss or anything to that effect. simply acknowledging Cano and Granderson as desirable elements to the team keeps with the status quo.

    I would be surprised if Cashman didn’t actively seek to acquire a young, All Star outfielder before both Cano and Granderson wrap up with their respective deals. I’d wager that signing both guys and going under the 189 mark isnt going to happen if it means the team loses financial flexibility to address needs.

  • ultimate913

    Let Swisher walk. Let Ibanez walk. Let Martin walk.

    Try to sign Sizemore for RF to a 1 year deal + incentives. If not, maybe Ichiro on a 1 year deal. I don’t think he’ll leave SEA though. Romine takes over starting C for 2013 and 2014. 2015 is when I expect Sanchez to be ready.

    Try to resign Kuroda. Budget doesn’t start till 2014 so bringing him back one year wouldn’t hurt. I honestly don’t expect anything from Pineda. Whatever he gives, is bonus. Next year, the rotation, if it goes as planned, should be: CC, Kuroda, Nova, Hughes, Banuelos.

    Can’t really stay under budget if they plan on bringing both Granderson and Cano back along with signing a big FA SP(Hamels, Greinke).

    • BK2ATL

      Sizemore??? Just no. If Beltran was a huge risk that they weren’t in on, I can’t see them putting much effort into Sizemore.

      2013 starting pitching depends on how Nova and Hughes continues to perform. I can pretty much guess that Cole Hamels won’t be really considered. I’m thinking that Cashman will check with Pettitte to see if he’s coming back. He’ll keep tabs on Pineda. Then there’s Hughes and Nova. Maybe he’ll re-sign Kuroda, depending on whether he wants to play in MLB in 2013, or head back to Japan, which has been speculated in the past.

      So, we’re looking at CC, Nova, Hughes, Pettitte, and Pineda, possibly Kuroda in 2013, with Phelps as the long man, in the wings. That works with Cashman’s 2014 salary plan more than a Hamels or Greinke signing. I’m guessing that Pineda was brought over with an eye towards that.

      Banuelos nor Betances will probably need another full year of consistency before even being considered. Neither are ready to be considered for anything other than AAA Trenton again.

      Romine is already only seen as a backup C in NYC. Maybe he’ll have value elsewhere, as already does Cervelli. If they can’t re-sign Martin on a short-term deal, I can see them picking up a stopgap starting C in FA. A Gerald Laird or Miguel Oliva type to hold the spot for Gary Sanchez in 2-3 years. Might just be best to try to sign Martin back.

    • hogsmog

      Wait, why Ichiro? He’s a flashy player, but has been severely dropping off the past few seasons from a career that was fun stats-wise but not worth his salary for the past three years. As a fan-favorite with a lot of Japanese viewers in tow, he won’t come cheap even now. Plus, he’s obsessed with 3000 hits; OBP is an afterthought. You’d probably be paying ~10mil for 150 slap singles and a big attitude.

      • ultimate913

        For one year, there aren’t really that much better options. I mean, Quentin might also be available via FA but he’ll cost more than the Yanks can really afford and he’s just horrible defensively.

        What other options are there? There aren’t many. Torii Hunter, Berkman, Cody Ross? Fill from within?

  • hogsmog

    I would say Cano over Granderson, just because finding a hard-hitting middle infielder is a lot harder than finding somebody to occupy a corner OF spot (moving Gard to center). FWIW, Cano’s game isn’t based on speed and he seems to take conditioning very seriously, so I see less risk for age-related decline than there could be for an average 2b. Though it might be tough if Swish leaves too; that combined with a Gardner who can’t stay healthy makes a fairly shitty outfield.

    In light of letting both walk, there’s something to be said for the fact that they’re both kind of hackers at the plate. These guys in their late 30s could be a lot more like Vlad/Alfonso Soriano than a Thome/Justice (the “slow guy with power who can take a walk” is my idea of the usual best-case scenario for oldsters).

  • http://www.workwithpete.com Pete

    How about Cash figures out another magical Burnett-to-Pittsburgh deal involving A-Rod…?

    • King of Fruitless Hypotheticals

      that^^^

  • fin

    THe truth of the matter is I dont think the Yankees really have a choice but to resign Cano and Granderson. Most likely they will be the 2 best FA on the market, and relitively the same age as other options. There just arent young guys hitting the market now. IT seems to me that all the top FA are usually in the 29-31 age range. I’m assuming they will sign both and hope that a couple of the Bichette’s, Austins, Williams, Sanchez’s become valuable parts of the big team by the time Cano and Granderson are on their downslides. If they dont resign them, I would think they would pretty much have to trade the farm to replace their production as there wont be any better options on the market to replace them with.
    With the Yankees trying to win every year, well pretty having to win every year, to fill and pay for that stadium, I dont see them letting Cano and Granderson walk as viable options. They will do what they have been doing an sign them to a long term deals, knowing they will have a couple bad years at the end but other players will step in. I could have seen them letting one walk if Tex was the player they thought they were signing, but no way do I see them letting their offense just walk away, and Granderson and Cano are the Yankees offense.

  • jg233

    Anyone who thinks the Yanks would let a home grown future Hall of Famer sign with someone else is just flat crazy…The Yanks will most likely not be paying Mo $15M per year much longer either. Jeter’s goes down to $8M, Kuroda and Pettitte are probably gone, as is Swisher. There will be lots of free space there. Granderson and Cano will probably already be making $15M per year each so it is not like they will be getting a huge per year raise anyway.

  • Jonathan

    I got to this party late and don’t have time to read all of these comment so somebody might have already said it but when you say part of the reason you think he’ll decline is that second basemen take the blind pivot at 2nd, you just have to realize that 1, he’s ELITE at having the arm strength to avoid that and his little leg kick thing. That and he has the reflexes, arm and bat to move to 3B down the line. And he’s a born and bred guy. Robbie is here to stay.

    If the cost of not getting under the $189MM threshold is bringing back Cano, so be it. The Yankees make more than enough money and are supported more than enough that they shouldn’t let players like Cano go for just monetary purposes. I know it’s not my money but they have more money than they’ll ever be able to spend. Most second basemen are speedy small guys that play scrappy and dive all over the place on the bases and in the field. Robbie simply isn’t that. When you look at the entire history of 2B and guys like Castillo of course they decline. SS decline too but Jeter has lasted well past what everyone said he would. Kent played great until he was near 40. Plus if he does fall off a cliff we can handle that. The Yankees money is our greatest asset. You say it all the time. It’s the reason we don’t give extensions. We can also afford to eat the back end of a deal if we get elite production at the start.