Point/Counterpoint with Rafael Soriano

Girardi: Jeter is "a little bit of a question" for Opening Day
Friday Night Open Thread



I’m not trying to pick on Gammons here, more like trying to poke a hole in Scott Boras’ logic. The Yankees reportedly have some interest in bringing Rafael Soriano back on a two-year deal to help their bullpen, but his camp doesn’t need to use Mariano Rivera‘s age to prove their point. We all know Rivera, who is coming off major knee surgery, will open next year at age 43 and is more of a liability now than every before. The Yankees know this as well as anyone, which is why they’re likely looking into other free agent relievers in case Soriano gets his money elsewhere.

And, for the record, Mo was 24 days away from his 40th birthday on the day the Yankees won the 2009 World Series.

Girardi: Jeter is "a little bit of a question" for Opening Day
Friday Night Open Thread
  • Erik

    Gammons’s point is sort of silly. The 43-year-old is still tops on the depth chart, even if we resign Soriano.

    • Slugger27

      is it really his point? hes just stating what boras/soriano is pitching to the yankees.

      • JU

        Counterpoint#2: In the history of baseball, there has never been a closer like Mariano Rivera. Throw history out the window.

  • Rey22

    Didn’t they say something similar in 09 about never having won with a catcher as old as Posada and a SS as old as Jeter?

    No team wins WS with closer older than 40 because none of them have a closer as impossibly good as Mariano that can pitch at that age. Such a stupid argument.

  • RetroRob

    It’s not a knock on Gammons. He’s letting the world know one of Boras’ spin point on Soriano. That’s his job. I want to know those things.

    I wonder, though, if any team really buys those spin points. I can’t imagine that will move the Yankees to want to sign Soriano. They’ll sign him if they are concerned enough about Mo, and the available options.

    Boras’s spin, though, is similar to before 2009 people noted that no team had ever won a World Championship with a starting SS who was 35-years-old+. Flash forward six months, and that data point was removed from the board. It was easy to poke holes in the SS argument in 2009. It easier to poke holes in Boras’s argument this time.

    • And in merrie olde England

      It’s a knock on Gammons for being a stoolie rather than a journalist. Cherry picking stats is easy.

      • Tony_Turdner

        Gammons didn’t cherry pick the stat. Boras did.

      • RetroRob

        His job as a journalist is to report what’s happening in the markeplace. If Boras is spinning that stat, then Gammons’ job is to let us know that.

  • Get Phelps Up

    How many teams in the last 50 yrs have had a 40 year old regular closer? That’s a pretty dumb argument.

    • thenamestsam

      This is what I was thinking too. As far as I can tell no team has ever had a 43 year-old regular closer before. Or as I prefer to phrase it:

      No team with a 43 year old regular closer has ever not won the World Series.

      Should they even bother having next season, or just give us the trophy now?

  • Andy Pettitte’s Fibula (formerly Manny’s BanWagon)

    I’d give Soriano a 2 year deal if he’d accept it (no player option for 3rd year obviously), though I’d feel equally comfortable bringing in Soria on a 1 year deal to back up Mo.

    Boras spin point on Mo is kind of silly since there’s never really been a short reliever who has been able to maintain dominance as Mo has for this long a period of time and nothing he’s done would leave you to believe he can’t do the job anymore.

  • Dan

    In the last 30 years, only one Yankee team won a World Series without Rivera as the closer. See, I can state dumb facts too…

  • OldYanksFan

    Hey…. It’s OK to pick on Gammons here. They guy was a stud 10 years ago, but now he’s basically a shill for the Red Sox, and rarely says anything that is enlightening.

    It’s a shame. I used to really respect Gammons, but now he is more window dressing than analyst.

  • TomH

    Irrelevant. IF the Jays did sign Melky Cabrera this afternoon, the ALEast is likely to be theirs.

    • Knoxvillain

      Are you being serious? Even after all they’ve done, a 4th place finish again wouldn’t surprise me if the Orioles some how play above their heads for a full season again.

      I’m willing to bet the Jays don’t win more than 84 games this year.

      • TomH

        Are you ever going to be surprised. They’ve decided to start writing checks again, the way they did in the early 1990s (when they outspent NYY and Boston). They can match the Dodgers or Yankees, dollar for dollar, and their GM is a buccaneer. They’re probably commiserating with poor Cash for the austerity plan he’s forced to live with.

        • Need Pitching & Hitting

          The Jays aren’t going to come close to matching the Yankees or Dodgers payroll (not that that means they can’t win).

          • TomH

            I didn’t say they WOULD. But they certainly can if they want to, without any sweat. Yankee fans are going to have to wake up. The team isn’t just in a state of relative decline but of absolute decline. These other guys smell the problem of the payroll/austerity situation in NY. The Jays’ GM knows the situation, knows that the team is old, salary-locked, on the road to Austerityville, and with an impoverished upper minor league (and a lower league that may or may not turn out to be good). It’s a good year for Tampa or Toronto make a major move.

            • Get Phelps Up

              You seem awfully high on the Blue Jays. They took several big risks too, ones that could easily backfire. And the Yankees aren’t going to suddenly become a 70 win team if they limit their payroll to 189M for one year.

            • Need Pitching & Hitting

              They can if they want to based on what?
              They don’t have nearly the revenues to support that, and businesses are generally not in the business of willfully losing tons of money.
              I suppose any team could spend with the Yankees and Dodgers if they have rich enough owners willing to lose tons of money.

              • TomH

                Let them put a young, lively, and winning team on that field and they’ll fill that place every night, the way they did in the early 1990s. “Revenue” will be no problem. People have developed amnesia about Toronto’s revenue capacity since the Jays went into decline. Or else they’re just too young to remember.

                • Need Pitching & Hitting

                  4M people don’t magically show up that quickly.
                  Their revenue can definitely go up, but they have a long, long way to go to come anywhere near Yankee/Dodger territory. As it stands now, the Blue Jays stand to be the biggest losers of revenue in the market disqualification program. It’ll take years of sustained good teams to get back the attendance they had in the early 90’s.

    • Get Phelps Up

      So I guess Toronto is going to win the AL East this year winter after the Rays won it last year winter and the Red Sox won it the year winter before.

    • Ted Nelson

      LOL… Three players, 23 wins!!! They can win the division if things go well for them, but they’re not the favorite.

      And the Yankees are in “absolute decline?” based on winning the most games in the AL last year? Based on scoring 4 runs short of the league lead?

  • http://Tab Ally

    The Canucks can suck it all up like the Borg, but they still won’t win without chemistry. By next year, they’ll be pulling a Marlins stunt, giving their players away and dumping salary…

  • JCK

    This applies: http://xkcd.com/1122/

  • The Constant Gardner

    No team has ever won a World Series with Ted Williams either. Stupid.

    • ton lon ton

      and no team has won the world series with peter gammons on it

  • ton lon ton

    if arod comes back and hits .341 45/144/12 the whole way it is a diff story

  • ton lon ton

    also don forget that shane spencer can always come back and hit 8 grand slams in 8 days……

  • Opus

    So, if the Yankees agree with this thinking and Soriano resigns with them, Mo becomes his set-up man?

  • Laz

    biggest problem with this arguement is that there aren’t a whole lot 40+ yo closers. It all has to do with small sample sizes.