Dec
08

Saturday Night Open Thread

By

Here’s your open thread for this lovely Saturday evening. The Knicks are playing tonight, plus there’s college football and basketball on somewhere. Talk about whatever you like here.

Categories : Open Thread
  • Kevin Schappert

    One thing I take out of the week is that the George Steinbrenner era has clearly past. That Yankee way of doing business is over–good or bad.

    • jjyank

      Now I wasn’t alive then, but I do know that the “George Steinbrenner” way of doing things went south quite often. The 189 plan kind of sucks given the situation they’re in, but I have no problem with the concept of it. I blame the timing of the new CBA more than anything.

    • Robinson Tilapia

      You may be the first person on here to say that without making a value judgement on it, Kevin.

      • Kevin Schappert

        Hey it was both good and bad–championships won, but a lot of money wasted & the present product isn’t very good–forget the 95 wins, the final 2 months were ugly

        • Andy Pettitte’s Fibula

          George didn’t always go about things the right way but you could always sleep at night knowing that for better or worse he was totally committed to doing whatever he thought could bring a championship to the Bronx.
          Right now, I don’t really know what to think, a new way of doing business or a temporary reboot of the luxury tax. Any answer to that question is pure speculation and we’ll just have to wait and see how things play out.

          • Robinson Tilapia

            I actually slept with one eye open, gripping my pillow tight, wondering what marginal player he’d trade our top prospect for, or which .500 pitcher he’d gave ace money to…..but that’s just me.

            • Jacob

              …..exit George, enter Hal and Hank, take their hand’s, we’re of to 189 millleeeeeonnnnn

            • Andy Pettitte’s Fibula

              7 WS in about 35 years is gonna be pretty hard to beat. If you didn’t sleep with George I hope you have a coffee can full of Ambien with this new crew.

              • Ted Nelson

                You know these guys have run things since 2006, right?

                Do you even remember George?

                • Andy Pettitte’s Fibula

                  Once again you show yourself to be the fool that you are.

            • Magilla Gorilla Mama Called me Roy tho

              well said RT. Between Steinbrenner and Billy Martin, the club was an embarrassment.

              While we deal with this transitional era that the Yankees appear to be entering, Let’s remember the Stump Merrill, Dallas Green, Bucky Dent years too.

            • Charlie

              Amen. Stienbrenner more often than not traded good prospects for marginal players. How soon some around here forget what it was like from 1982 – 1993.

              Fast forward to 2010 – 2012 and Cashman has been doing the same think. Players like Swisher, Martin, Granderson, Ibanez, Adrew Jones, Nix. Ugh!! Even Arod’s contract was way too much.

              the loss of all of those guys are an addition by subtraction.

              • Andy Pettitte’s Fibula

                I guess George wasnt in charge from1994 -2005 for one of the greatest runs in sports history.

                Oh yeah, he WAS still in charge.

                • Ted Nelson

                  You know he tried to tradesomething like 3 of the core 4, right?

                • I am not the droids you’re looking for…

                  You know the core was built during years when he was barred from baseball, right? Having witnessed first hand what happened in the many years prior I can assure you that with his hand “in charge” during those years we very likely don’t win the 4 WS from 96-00. Whether because he wouldn’t have drafted certain guys in the first place, or traded them along the way, it would have been a very very very different, and much likely worse, team.

                  • adjusts batting gloves

                    Yes, we all miss the Gene Michael years!

              • Ted Nelson

                None of Martin, Ibanez, Jones, or Nix cost a prospect and Swisher cost very little.

        • Get Phelps Up

          September sure as hell wasn’t ugly.

          • Kevin S

            The Yankee offense all year was flukey–the 22 game streak of 3 runs or more–Canos crazy streak at the end of the year–the total shutdown in the playoff wasn’t that surprising–Yanks have big problems going forward–need more consistent hitting not all or nothing hitting

        • http://yankeesmagazine@wordpress.com mike

          I think that lowering payroll is a great idea but I think the Yankees are attempting to do it to fast. The way to lower payroll is through better scouting of young players to build a farm system of potential stars built around a young proven ace. Oh wait sounds like the giants doesn’t it.

          • Ted Nelson

            No, not all all. Almost none of the Giants have come through their farm recently. Brandon Crawford. A really high pick on Posey.

    • Alex Rodriguez

      I like the George Steinbrenner era… And also what Hank Steinbrenner does.

    • TomH

      About “that Yankee way,” of yesteryear, we shouldn’t forget that it was always a matter of money for the Yankees, going back to Col. Jake’s era. Would it be reinvested in the team, as in the 1920s, when that technique catapaulted the Yankees past the Giants? Would it take up the Rickey challenge and invest great gobs of dough into the farm system (e.g., Newark’s great teams)? Would it take advantage of the changed circumstances brought on by the demise of the reserve clause and use other MLB teams as their recruiting pool (Catfish et al., all the way down to Soriano)?

      Are we now at the point where we’ll see some other highly intelligent way of making use of the Yankee Dollar?

      Or will we, instead, see an enfeebled generation of Steinbrenners give up on buccaneer capitalism in order to turn into some unimaginative collection of timid MBA’s, “doing their best.” (And you know what Sean Connery said about guys who try their best.) Will a virile Cashman be permitted to shock and awe the American League with a great coup de main in the next few weeks? Or will he and Hal whine and whimper about fiscal responsibility, like teachers’ pets in some second-rate MBA program?

      • Chris

        Well put.

      • Elton Cod

        I almost always enjoy reading your posts. You are one of the few people on this board who doesn’t spend all of his time making excuses for mismanagement and poor play. You call things as they are. Thank you.

        I am also glad to see you picked up on the “fiscal responsibility” aspect of this luxury tax business. For the Steinbrenners, “fiscal responsibility” is just an excuse. It’s a way of convincing people that they have no choice but to take a greater share of the profits. Yankee fans and people who care about preserving the Yankee legacy have to bear the costs of “fiscal responsibility”. The Steinbrenners get all the benefits. This is a very good metaphor for the other form of “fiscal responsibility” you hear a lot about in the news these days, also known as “austerity”. The owners claim they have no choice but to take more profits; the consumers suffer. And in both cases the owners happily ignore how their past lousy ownership are partly responsible for the conditions they claim force them into “fiscal responsibility”.

        • http://espn.go.com/new-york/ ESPN NY

          You both should write for us.

        • Ted Nelson

          How many excuses are necessary for a team that makes the playoffs virtually every year?

      • toad

        Excellent comment.

    • OldYanksFan

      I think an era in MLB is over. The fact is that ‘buying’ FAs was much easier in George’s day. We had little competition, we weren’t paying a lot a taxes and prices were reasonable.

      I think the Steinettes are just responding to the current reality of the Yankees and of MLB. Things are different now, and the guys need to respond differently.

      We can all see the writing on the wall.
      Cashman will need to be carefully intil 2017, when ARod, Teix (and CC?) are off the books.

      We are in semi-rebuilld mode, but I have faith that the $189m payroll is temporary. We will come out strong in 2015 or 2016.

      • Thurdonpaul

        I LOLed @ Steinettes

  • TheManchine

    Anyone heard anything about Blake DeWitt?

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike Axisa

      He just signed a minor league contract somewhere. I like him, but he hasn’t hit the last few years.

  • brian

    Why dont they trade cano for very good prospects?

    • Robinson Tilapia

      Because they may want to re-sign him.

    • Kevin Schappert

      Trading cano might not be a terrible idea–he’s gone after 2013

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike Axisa

      Andy Pettitte and Mariano Rivera didn’t come back to go through a rebuilding year. Keep Cano and try to win.

      • Ted Nelson

        Who cares why they came back? The Yankees need to make the best decisions for the team. That might be trading him or it might not be. What Mo and Pettiitte think of it is something I could care less about.

        • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike Axisa

          The Yankees didn’t spend all that money on those guys just to start selling off the rest of the team.

          • Ted Nelson

            I don’t think that they will trade Cano, but I don’t think having spent that money should come into it. If, hypothetically, they don’t expect to re-sign him I think they should seriously consider moving him. If they get MLB-ready talent (or can turn around and trade for it… if they get a real haul for Cano there’s a chance it could put them over the top for an Upton or someone) they might not be that much worse in 2013, and they might be better off going forward.

            If they plan to re-sign him, take a look but probably do nothing.

        • Reuben Sierra’s Chains

          It’ “couldn’t” care less about, smart guy.

          • Ted Nelson

            Nice trolling

    • Simon

      I am of the same belief. If the Yankees decide that they (under these new budget restrictions) won’t be able to resign Cano, then they should trade him NOW if they want to get the most in return. Yes the Yanks wont be as good if they trade Cano but I’d rather they get young, talented, cost-controlled players than have Cano have 1-3 good seasons then fall off while paying him for at least the next 6-8 years. I’ll take the young players, no more monster contracts especially to someone who is already 30 years old.

      • Kevin S

        Cano’s agent is Boras–that means many years, much money–no way the Yanks go there–not a chance with Tex’s and Arods contracts still going

        • Andy Pettitte’s Fibula

          He’s also Jered Weaver’s agent and things didn’t play out that way for the Angels.

          • Hingle McCringleberry

            Weaver also grew up in LA rooting for Angels.

            • Jacob

              Robbie lived in NJ at some point during his high school years, rooting for the Yankees.

            • Dr. Jake Rosenstein

              He grew up in Simi Valley rooting for the Dodgers, silly boy. But, go right ahead making shit up.

        • Simon

          Agreed. I believe that if they sign Hamilton (I’d like them to jump all over him at 3-4 years) then attempt to get the best package of top prospects they can. If they can’t then they should just try to win now and take the pick when he leaves.

          Dumb Question: Does the quality of the FA leaving have an effect on where the Yankees supplemental pick would be, like for Cano leaving would they get a higher pick, or does it not have any effect?

          • Sweet Dick Willie

            if they sign Hamilton (I’d like them to jump all over him at 3-4 years

            Can we please stop this?

            Hamilton has said that he will give the Rangers the chance to match his best offer.

            If his best offer is 3/75 or 4/100, the Rangers will certainly match.

            • Rivera Venue Blues

              Maybe not if they get Upton.

          • Need Pitching & Hitting

            No effect. Order of picks is determined by reverse order of winning percentage for the previous season.

          • JohnnysKucking

            He did live in Newark for a bit, though.

        • Robinson Tilapia

          Disagree completely. Those contracts will come off the books halfway through them paying Robbie. I say them pay him and pay him well. We shall see.

          If the Yankees let a homegrown institution like Robbie Cano walk away without the biggest fight possible, then things will have indeed changed more than I thought.

          • Jacob

            You only want them to pay Robbie because he shares your name, but secretly you hope if he does not return that you will get the nickname Robbie, don’t lie RT

            • jjyank

              I don’t think he will change. He’s stuck now. I, for one, want them to pay Robbie because he’s my favorite player.

              • Jacob

                Ditto my fellow J name

                • Robinson Tilapia

                  People whose real first names begin with J are great people who accomplish great things.

                  • jjyank

                    +42

                  • Jacob

                    +2123240 this this

                • jjyank

                  Part of it is selfish. In 2008 I splurged on my first authentic jersey. I picked Robbie. I wear that jersey (with the old stadium patch) when I watch almost every game. I’m sure the next #24 will be a good player too, but I like it being Cano.

                  • Jacob

                    In ’07 was the first time I got really really into baseball and I fell in love with Robbie, he was not always my favorite player because that was Damon due to him stealing 2nd and 3rd while annoying the hell out of the opposite team, but when he left my 1b became my 1a

                    • jjyank

                      I’m guessing you are slightly younger than me. Me favorite player of all time is Bernie. He came into his own as I was growing up, and I keep a poster of his in my room (now apartment) at all times. Just didn’t have the scratch to buy his jersey at the time.

                    • Jacob

                      It wont let me reply to your comment but yea I am possibly the youngest regular one here but my family and thirst for knowledge about the game and the team has filled me in on everything and I am especially knowledgable of the 70′s-now. But from the 90′s I would say my favorite is more Joe Torre and none of the players (except jeter, who is the only person that is rival to robbie in my heart but who doesnt love jete?) because of how he is as a person

                    • Robinson Tilapia

                      Oh wow, dude. Had no idea. I love younger fans who really do go back and get to know the history of it all.

                    • jjyank

                      All good. I’m not exactly old, for the record (24). Bernie is my boy though.

                  • YanksFanInBeantown

                    The next #24? Things will have gone very wrong if there is a next #24.

                    And my first jersey was a Jeter jersey. Right in time for the 2001 World Series, my first real baseball memory…

                    Effin Luis Gonzalez

              • Robinson Tilapia

                I’m keeping this name for the long run. Gone too far, and every other attempt I had a name sucked.

                I’m also keeping it because I think Robbie Cano will still be a New York Yankee in 2020.

                • Jacob

                  I sure hope he is

          • http://www.nyc.gov/html/nycha/html/home/home.shtml The Big City of Dreams

            Those contracts will come off the books halfway through them paying Robbie.

            —————-

            Exactly. I had one guy tell me that singing Robbie would cripple the team wtf. Mid way through his contract the farm system that Cash keeps propping up should be paying off by then.

  • Kevin

    If you are not watching the UFC tonight, you are missing out on incredible fights. By far the best prelims I have ever seen. Great action. Can’t wait for the main card to start on Fox at 8pm EST.

    I really hope the Yankees can get Hamilton for 3 years and a option. Trade Cano for some bluechip prospects (Cardinals).

    • Kevin S

      Don’t forget Pacquaio–Marquez and doubtful Yanks could get Hamilton for 3 if so they should jump

  • Hingle McCringleberry

    Is there any conceivable situation where the Yankees trade Cano for prospects and then re-sign him next offseason alla Cliff Lee?

    • Jacob

      The funny thing is I thought about that too, But I like Cano in pinstripes until he retires with no uniform in between

  • Pat D

    Anyone have any thoughts on the Star Trek Into Darkness trailer?

    • TomH

      Special effects, computer tricks, meaningless action, etc. Another kids’ movie, no?

      • I am not the droids you’re looking for…

        I think much more than that. Cumberbatch is an awesome actor and will make a wonderful villain, a requirement for all great hero films. The prior Abrams/Kurtzman/Orci ST film was amazing – great story, great execution, and great reverence for the underlying characters,, history, and culture of the ST universe.

  • Yogiism

    Hi All,

    Can I ask a question that perhaps already been answered or discussed. All of us have discussed in great length Arod’s remaining years and contract. Could they trade him, could they restructure his contract, etc. None of which is happening. For better or worse, every dollar that Arod is owned, will be paid for by the Yanks. I’ve come to terms with that at this point.

    Here is an idea and I don’t know if it is plausible, but to me, it makes a little sense. Mark Teixeria is a terrific first baseman. Perhaps one of the top 3, if not the best defensively in the league. 1st is a position that a player can play late into their career, plus a guy like Mark, who stays in very good physical and mental condition, should be able to play the position late into his 30′s. He has 4 years and $90m remaining on his deal. He will be 36 when the contract expires. What if he and the Yankees were to restructure the contract for 6 years and make it an even $100m. Before anyone jumps on me, saying no way he does this, “he’d be leaving money on the table,” which would be true to an extent, but then again at 36, it shouldn’t be expected that he would garner too much interest (think Carlos Pena and his $7.5m salary) and Mark wouldn’t be selling himself too short. Perhaps a few million, which would be more of a thank you to the Yanks. He would still be a suitable SH DH and back up player at that time. It would give Mark a guaranteed two more years with a team that really seems to enjoy playing for and likely want to continue playing for. For the Yanks, it would take the AAV down to $16m from about $22m. It would be a savings of $6m per year, which in theory is mostly the difference btw what Cano makes today and will likely be earning in coming years $22m-$24m. The league shouldn’t have much issue with this since the Yanks would be adding years and a few dollars and wouldn’t be a clear cut case of manipulating the luxury tax guidelines. Jeter will be well gone by then. It will be the remaining year Arod, so by adding 2 years to Mark’s deal, it doesn’t have much impact on long term future of the team, at least in terms of annual costs. It’s really just to shave down the dollars per year from what he is being paid now. It’s amazing that I am talking about $6m since its the Yanks, but $6m actually seems to make a difference these days.

    Does anyone see the logic in this? I actually happen to believe if Mark were approached about this, he might actually consider it. Please be nice.

    • Yogiism

      P.S. When I refer to Mark as a terrific first baseman, I give him a 10 at the position and a 5 at the plate. Just want to clarify that I am very realistic about Mark now and potentially in the future as a player.

      • radnom

        I would need to see some sign next season that doing this wouldn’t just turn it into another dead weight contract. Do you really think the Yankees want a player who is a 5 offensively now still at a prime offensive position after four more years of decline?

        I would consider it only on the condition of signs of a bounce back from Tex next season – something the Yankees could desperately use.

        • radnom

          And of course in that case he definitely wouldn’t consider it so bottom line its not happening.

    • Preston

      I just don’t see Mark Teixeira signing what is essentially an extension for 2/10. First of all, he’s a lot better than Carlos Pena, and even if that’s where his value is, with four years left on his deal he wouldn’t except that. Players are fairly delusional about their physical declines, Mark probably expects to bounce back and hit .280/.370/.520 over the next four years and get a nice Paul Konerko type deal when he hits FA. Second FA prices will infalte in 4 years, and the 1 year 7.5 million deal Pena got will probably be an equivilant of 10 when Mark hits FA. Any extension talks with Tex, would have to pay him significantly more. Say 3/36 bringing the total contract to 7/126, bringing the AAV down to 18. In that case I don’t know that it would be worthwhile to save the money this year to be saddled with a 37-39 yo Tex later on.

      • Yogiism

        All fair points and I didn’t consider inflation looking forward. If the Yanks want to try to save some money going forward, I don’t see any other place than working with Tex, mainly because of his age. Probably not happening, but still a worthwhile discussion. I agree adding too much money and years becomes counterproductive. Part of me still wonders however, if he would consider something like this. Being a free agent at 36 is a weird year. Konerko is really in his own league. I am thinking Tex if more of a Giambi later in his career instead.

        • Preston

          It’s actually a pretty good idea, I just think Mark probably still thinks of himself as a 20 million dollar player. And without going out into the market and seeing what his actual value is, he wouldn’t swallow his pride and except a number that would A. save enough money to be worthwhile B. Not significantly hand cuff us down the road.

          • Yogiism

            Yep. Thanks. And after writing Giambi, I thought about. Giambi kind of sucked all the time so..

            I wouldn’t be entirely shocked to read something about this next offseason. The Yanks and Tex talking about this. On paper it does make sense and at that point he’ll have three years remaining. I hope Tex has a .280 30 120 season or better in 13, but if he doesn’t perhaps these types of discussions can take place. A small extension with limited dollars to lengthen his Yankee career benefits both parties.

            • forensic

              And after writing Giambi, I thought about. Giambi kind of sucked all the time so..

              I wish I knew where this stuff started. Must’ve been 2007, carrying into 2008.

              Anyway, I would love it if Tex was even able to approach the hitter Giambi was for his Yankee career. Right now, it’s really not even close.

              • Preston

                Yeah, Giambi put up video game numbers. Everybody just remembers that his BA dipped after his first year. He hit .260/.404/.521 as a Yankee.

  • Paco

    I am always surprised by the romanticism that surrounds the George Steinbrenner era. He had a terrible decade prior to the rebirth of the franchise in the mid 90s. When he was banned in 1990 the team finally had a chance to build its farm and stop throwing stupid money after stars and trading young talent.

    Jeter was drafted during that ban, as was Pettitte (and Posada). Mariano was also signed in that interval. The years of his ban led directly to the development of the Yankees dynasty.

    So let’s not get too romantic and forget the bad he did as well. Like everyone else, I appreciate his will to win, but he made a lot of stupid decisions trying to win.

    p.s., let’s not forget him being guilty on a felony charge of obstruction of justice either.

    • Jacob

      I do love George but it was his absence in the 80′s/ early 90′s that allowed for this great 90′s dynasty. If he had stayed it is probable that would not have seen a single championship in the 90′s at all.

      • Rocky Road Redemption

        I remember TSJC (if you’re old guard you’ll know who he is, he’s a legend) doing a write-up on the 90s Yankees with the thesis being that the Yankees did nothing differently in the 90s than before, they just got luckier. I’ll try and dig it up eventually.

    • Rocky Road Redemption

      BUT: Under George, the Yankees won 6 WS.

      • Jacob

        7* they count ’09

    • Robinson Tilapia

      This.

    • jjyank

      I agree completely. I love George and his passion, but the whole “ZOMG he’s turning in his grave, his son’s are ruining EVERYTHING!!!!!” thing is absurd. Let’s not pretend that George built all those championship teams. Most of his decisions led to failure.

      • Jack P

        Mmmm most baseball decisions you can say if you want, but you cant question the way he did business. He made the Yankees a world wide brand.

    • Austin Aunelowitzky

      It’s not just George. Most historical figures have their legacy glorified by folks who have an interest in doing so (family members, political allies, etc.). I’ve seen it in my lifetime over and over. I won’t mention specific political figures but it happens all the time. What is surprising about George is normally there is a waiting period of sorts, maybe 10 or 20 years or so before the glorification and rewriting of history can take effect. With George, it has happened very quickly. The Giant statue in monument park, the sons honoring him after the WS in ’09 have all made it happen quickly. It always makes me skeptical about what I read even from so called historical texts (the victors write the history.)

    • Andy Pettitte’s Fibula

      To assume that George wasn’t still having significant input into the operations of the team from 90-93 is naive. It was completely unenforceable and the fact that he pretty much stayed hands off for the 10+ years after his return leads one to believe he may have just learned from his mistakes of the 80s.

      He was a pretty smart guy despite the cartoon character persona often attributed to him by the media and shows like Seinfeld.

  • The Real Greg

    Reports are surfacing that the Dodgers are close to signing Greinke.
    That might mean that the Rangers will take that money and offer it to Hamilton to stay

    • The Real Greg

      Hearing 6 years $145 million as a probable amount

      • dkidd

        budget? what budget?

    • Yogiism

      Probably best case scenario for the Yanks. More the Dodgers spend now, the less they have in 2014 ala Cano. I still have a hard time thinking who is going to him $220m + next year. Mariners? I don’t see it. O’s? Nah. Tigers? Maybe..Sox, Jays, Rays, No. W Sox, Indians, Royals, Twins, No. Angels? Maybe. Rangers, not likely. Astos lol.

      Braves, Mets, no chance. Phils, probably not. Nats, Marlins, sadly, maybe.

      Reds, Cards, Brewers, no chance. Cubs, are actually a real threat for Cano.

      Rockies, Giants, no way. D-Backs, maybe, Dodgers have way too much money on the books.

      I see the Mariners, Nats, D-Backs and Cubs being the Yanks biggest competitors. The Cubs are real concern of mine. I could see Epstein dropping that coin with no other big commitments (outside of Soriano for a year) on the books.

      As long as the Dodgers keep spending btw now and then, I think it seriously hinders their ability to sign Cano.

      • mustang

        Why not the Cards?

        Take Albert’s $$$$$ and use it on Cano.

        • mustang

          Also the Giants have been know to throw some $$$ around ever hear of Zito.

          • Yogiism

            Dude. Why would the Cards pass on Pujols their franchise player at a less demanding position to turn around and sign Cano? Not arguing, but there is no sense in that at all. Sure, they could, but I don’t see it. The Giants? Really? They are pretty cheap when all is said and done. The Zito deal is old news from a different time.

            • Preston

              They wouldn’t, this is what’s lost in the Cano contract panic. Cano and Boras can ask for 15/500 if they want to, it doesn’t mean they’ll get it. The Dodgers may very well offer Cano a lot of money and years next year, but they may also win 85 games in 2013 and realize that this is no way to run a baseball team.

          • Yogiism

            I’m telling you. Epstein is going to make this a real project for the Yanks next year. I know it. Serious gut feeling on this. Castro at SS and I don’t think they have any suitable players for 2nd.

            • Jacob

              Nah Theo is going young I doubt he puts any big money into a guy like Cano, if he was going to go big on anyone it would have been last year with Albert or Prince.

              • Yogiism

                Fair enough and agree to an extent, but I still think Epstein is going to be involved and make this rough for the Yanks. If I had to put one team at the top right now, I’d say its the Cubs going after Cano. They’ll have the money and after what appears to be another shitty year for them in the works, there will be some serious pressure next offseason. We’re talking about the complete player, despite age.

              • forensic

                Going big on Pujols or Fielder is completely different from going big on Cano. Mostly because there are two more years of development and/or moves for their organization between the two.

                I’m not saying they will go after Cano, but just because they didn’t feel the money was worth it 2 years ago (at a VERY different position) doesn’t mean they won’t go for it this coming offseason.

            • Preston

              The Cubs don’t have suitable players at most positions. They have Castro and Rizzo and maybe Brett Jackson if he can miraculously K less than 30% of the time.

              • Yogiism

                Yep. I’m just worried that there is going to be a lot of grumbling after 2013 if they have another shitty year to do something and Cano is a pretty solid bet. Cano is the real deal and while any team that signs him will overpay, it won’t be like paying Crawford $142m when he was really worth $60m-$65m over 5 years at best.

                • Preston

                  Possible, but as I understand it the appeal of the job for Theo was he was going to have complete control to build from the ground up. So I think management understood he was planning on making the team a lot worse before they got better.

                  • Yogiism

                    Let’s hope so, man. If you take the Cubs off the board, I’ll feel much better about the Yanks chances. I think Cano ends up with 7 years and $142m-$154m, which wouldn’t be so bad. The Arod contract talk is just silly.

    • mustang

      Yes, That ends the get Hamilton/Trade Cano project.

      DAMN YOU DODGERS !!!!!

      I hate when teams just try to buy a championship.

      • Yogiism

        ..and they still need to address a contract for Kershaw after this year. Keep spending Dodgers. They’ve got a whole year to approach a $300m annual budget. More they spend now, less the chance of them going after Cano. But then again, we could witnessing our first $300m payroll going into 2014, that is, if they go after Cano and sign Kershaw at $20m + per year.

        • forensic

          Kershaw is not a FA after this year. He’s got one more arb year left, he’s a FA after 2014.

      • Bo Knows

        that’s the yankees schtick

  • Jacob

    This is probably in my top 5 of CC games, with number one being a game I went to last year against the Brewers, sat in very nice seats with my uncle as CC went 7 1/3 no run ball and stuck out 13 all swingning. Love CC he is worth every penny!!

  • Robinson Tilapia

    For shits and giggles only here:

    If you had to fill C, RF, and 3B with only internal options, in what order would you place your comfort level with having guys currently in the org playing everyday at each position next year?

    For me: 1) C, 2) 3B, 3) RF

    • Jacob

      1)3B 2)C 3)RF. I put 3B first because I think people forget about Laird and I think he could do 3B everyday at an average level.

      • Yogiism

        Didn’t they release him and he was picked up by the Astros?

        • Need Pitching & Hitting

          yep

          • mustang

            Jacob FORGOT that ;)

            • Jacob

              I was just making sure you all didn’t forget

              • Robinson Tilapia

                Doesn’t explain why you then recommended Charlie Hayes, though.

                • Jacob

                  YOU DON’T KNOW MY SECRETS

        • Jacob

          Shit disregard that your honor

    • Yogiism

      I’m in the severe minority, but I’d be entirely fine with Nix at 3rd and Romine and Stewart at catcher. F it, I’d just stick Dickerson in RF. Mesa bat R or L? I forget. Hopefully Mason will be ready for 2014.

      I basically agree with your order. I don’t think things are quite as dire at catcher as they are being made out to be. In fact, I don’t think any of the Yank issues are that severe. There will be options over the next 1.5 months, so let’s just hang tight.

      I just hope they pull the offer back they made to Youk or he takes the Indians deal, which I ultimately think he will. It’s just weird if Youk were to play for the Yanks.

      • Robinson Tilapia

        I think things are dire for almost everyone at C. I think I’m ready to accept the possibility of CATCHER WARZ.

        Maybe life is beating me down, but you could tell me, “well, we’re going to have Nunie basically sleep at 3B every night through the spring until he gets it right, and we’ve got this kid Adams,” and I wouldn’t hang myself anymore.

        I don’t see how you make it work at RF with internal options unless you get REAL lucky with it somehow clicking for someone for the first time at the MLB level.

        • Need Pitching & Hitting

          Not down with the Musty C-Dick potential?

          • Robinson Tilapia

            Only in a “lightning in a bottle” scenario which I doubt you get.

          • Jacob

            I say we just drop the c all together, let our immaturity get the best of us with Musty Dick

            • Robinson Tilapia

              …..but enough about “Amanda.”

        • Yogiism

          Man, I agree. There is a serious lack of inventory at catcher throughout the league. It’s rather odd, because this was once the most popular position outside of SS. Quite frankly, Robinson, I think part of the problem is intelligence. May sound weird to some, but we’re not churning out people like Soccia’s and Girardi’s anymore. I think part of the problem at catcher throughout the league is that a lot of young players are not as baseball smart as they were in the past. It’s happening throughout society (the dumbing down effect) so I don’t see why professional sports should be spared either. This is something that I’ve thought about in the past as we all witness the lack of quality catching. Which is why I like Romine so much. He is actually smart and actually a good catcher. Provided his back holds up, I could care less if he has a .165 BA in June. I still think this kid has a really nice career ahead of him. He was a top prospect for a while and he was always requested in trade packages. I think we’re all panicking too much over the loss of Martin. Gut feeling tells me we’ll all be pretty satisfied with Romine on the team.

          • I am not the droids you’re looking for…

            Racist?

            • Yogiism

              Say what? Sure hope you’re not calling me that..

        • Yogiism

          What I am basically saying is that catching takes a different degree of intelligence. I’d rather have a Dartmouth grad who couldn’t hit the wide side of barn, but is extremely mature and calls flawless games.

          • Betty Lizard

            A Dartmouth grad as a catcher?
            Sigh. My ideal man.
            You do make me feel better about Romine.

            • Yogiism

              Ha. I do think scouts will start putting more emphasis on well educated individuals for the position. For a long while now, teams have been scouting and acquiring the wrong type of player for the position.

              You should feel better about Romine. He’s going to be a very good catcher. It’s just his back. He’s young. He’ll be fine. Expect to see him opening day.

            • I am not the droids you’re looking for…

              I’m a Dartmuth grad. We are not all we’re cracked up to be. And I assume you know that Ausmus went to Dartmouth.

      • Robinson Tilapia

        As for Youk, I don’t think it’s weird at all. All these guys know each other and the rivalry is more about us than it is then. We’ve lived through other Sox institutions wearing pinstripes.

        • Yogiism

          Ok. You win. I agree.

    • forensic

      Do I get to consider Nunez a 3B, which they obviously don’t?

      If I do, then 3B, RF, C

      If not, then RF, C, 3B

    • jesse

      C, RF, 3B.

  • Alkaline

    So how is everyone doing this fine evening?

    • The Real Greg

      Waiting for the Heisman announcement and seeing the big domino fall in free agency.

    • Jacob

      Seems like the arguing in this thread is lower than normal so I am pretty good, and yourself?

    • jjyank

      Awesome. Halo, Bacardi, friends, and good music. How about yourself good sir?

  • Vic

    If only person I would trade Robbie for is Mike the monster Stanton !!!!!!!!!!

  • https://twitter.com/KramerIndustry Kramerica Industries

    Oh God…

    2011. The year of “put it on the left side” from Michael Kay.

    • The Real Greg

      That’s good. That means we win.

      • https://twitter.com/KramerIndustry Kramerica Industries

        The final game of 2011 ended on the right side.

        • The Real Greg

          For most seasons the final game of the year can end on the right side.

  • The Real Greg

    Interesting… Supposedly, Hank Aaron just tweeted that the Braves have traded Andrelton Simmons for Justin Upton. His twitter account is not check marked

    • Jacob

      Sweeny said it was a fake account, so I would not trust it.

      • The Real Greg

        Fair enough.

    • Need Pitching & Hitting

      Yeah, that’s a fake.

    • Yankeefan

      what is a 78 year old man tweeting for? lol

    • Yogiism

      That would be a little weird to have both brothers playing on the same team in the OF nonetheless. It would make holidays a breeze, however.

      • The Real Greg

        Its not true. It was a fake account.

        • Vic

          Trade UPTON 2 the yanks … Everything they need …. Right handed power … Young …. A five tool player …. An out fielder and under a decent contract ……

          • Preston

            Now we need to just find an elite MLB SS with years of team control to trade to them!

  • The Real Greg

    Johnny Football wins the Heisman

    • Pat D

      Deserved and expected, still wanted Te’o to win obviously.

    • Need Pitching & Hitting

      Damn….I was hoping for Billy Basketball.

    • Robinson Tilapia

      I know very little about current college football and only know about these guys around draft time.

      It’d be awesome if a guy actually named “Johnny Football,” 1) existed, 2) won the Heisman.

    • Andy Pettitte’s Fibula

      He’s gotta be the most exciting QB I can remember since Doug Flutie.

      • Pat D

        That strikes me as overhype, frankly. There have been a lot of guys in between those two.

        • Andy Pettitte’s Fibula

          Have you watched Manziel play this year and are you old enough to have seen Flutie play in college?

          • Pat D

            Yes, I have watched Manziel play this year, mostly the game against Alabama, which pretty much won him the award. I guess there was a small backlash against him for not having played as well against ranked teams, but I didn’t see those.

            I’m not old enough to have seen Flutie except on highlight reels. I was about 4 when he left college.

            I wasn’t trying to knock either guy. My point was that, the sports media being the sports media, there have been quite a few guys in the years in between for whom everyone went gaga. Guys like Tommie Frazier, Peyton Manning, Michael Vick, Eric Crouch, Vince Young, Tim Tebow, Cam Newton. Even to a certain extent guys like Ty Detmer, Andre Ware and other who put up huge numbers.

            I just don’t like comparisons like that because it can be here today, gone tomorrow. Manziel might be “Johnny Football” now, but if his career peters out he might as well be “Johnny Come Lately.”

            • Andy Pettitte’s Fibula

              I agree there’s been tons of “system” QBs who never amounted to anything. I didn’t say Manziel was the best QB I’ve seen, just one of the most exciting. I’ve remember Flutie at BC vividly as a kid and he’s probably my all time favorite college football player.

              Take a look as some of Manziel’s highlight videos on uTube. He has a pretty impressive cache of amazing plays already in his freshman season. It sometimes seems like he’s gonna make a great play every time he drops back to pass.

  • Pat D

    So, Mike, whom do you believe in the most recent NHL talk breakdown? Fehr, insisting a deal was close, or Bettman, being Gary Bettman?

  • mustang

    This could be good because with the Dodgers getting Greinke Texas will probably sign Hamilton leaving Upton on the table.

    RUN TO THE PHONE CASH!!!!

    • The Real Greg

      That appears to be the chain reaction although Ken Rosenthal tweeted that the Rangers are still interested in trading for Upton.

      • Pat D

        How many carefully placed pauses were in that tweet?

        • The Real Greg

          All we know is that he recharges his Duracell batteries everyday them sticks them in his ass.

    • Yogiism

      Lots of interesting things to happen from here. For the Yanks, best case scenario was the Dodgers signing Greinke. The ripple effect definitely benefits the Yanks both now and next season when Cano is a free agent. And yes, I agree, this makes Justin Upton marginally more realistic. The Rangers could do both, but they’d really need to move a lot of things around.

      I’m pretty surprised to hear the news. I thought it was in the back for the Rangers. Weird.

  • Dicka24

    Wow 6 years and $147 million for Greinke. Boy are te Dodgers throwing out a ton of coin. I’m wondering how they afford Kershaw long term with so much money already locked up to a handful of players. Think about the money. It’s Yankees’esque if not worse maybe. Either $15 million i think. Then $20 million plus for Agonzo, Kemp, Grienke, and Crawford. Hanley is a FA after next year I think. Still that’s a ton of coin. Am I missing anyone? I know they gave league $21 million over 3 which is ridiculous too. sheesh.

    • Jacob

      Yep, Kershaw deserves the money more than anyone, the guy is 23 I do believe and has had a sub 3 era in every year except his first. Guy is the definition of an ace

    • I am not the droids you’re looking for…

      They are going to have a $250-300mm payroll. Bank it. And they will be profitable.

  • Jacob

    Ya know a few days ago I was looking at the international draft prospects and these guys were the same age or one year older than me, freaky stuff.

    • Raul Ibanez AKA Tom Marvolo Riddle AKA True Yankee(TM)

      Yeah dude, when I found out that Montero was younger than me last season I felt just so weird. For a couple days too. Especially when he came up and was actually playing for the big club, I spent a couple of days questioning every decision I had ever made up to that point in my life.

      • I am not the droids you’re looking for…

        I hope you remembered to question your parents and the genetic lottery for not having bestowed upon you top .000001% freakish athletic ability while you were at it.

  • Andy Pettitte’s Fibula

    Dodgers closing in on Greinke. That team is gonna be loaded next year if Kemp can come back healthy.

    • Knoxvillain

      I wonder how they’ll look five years from now.

      • Andy Pettitte’s Fibula

        If they decide to scale back theIr payroll in 5 years, probably not too good.

      • Ted Nelson

        I don’t even know that they’ll be that great this year. They’re hoping for a lot of turn-arounds from guys like Hanley, Crawford, Beckett, and AGon… They were 8 games behind the Giants last season. Ellis had a great year he might not repeat.

        They have great upside, but not a lot of certainty.

    • Ted Nelson

      You love big names, huh?

      • Ted Nelson

        Big names and big money are the only way to success! You are the stereotypical spoiled Yankees fan. Guess that’s why I can’t stand you

        • Andy Pettitte’s Fibula

          Feeling is mutual.

          You really are a total asshole and I’m far from the only one around here who feels that way.

      • Andy Pettitte’s Fibula

        Kershaw, Greinke, Capuano, Beckett, Lilly, Harang is a pretty damn good rotation. They have a bunch of solid arms in their pen.
        Kemp, Ethier, AGon, Hanley R., Crawford, Ellis should be an above league average offense.

        No one said they’re a lock to win the WS.

        If you wanna pick a fight with me, at least try to do it in a way that isn’t so obvious. The Dodgers are looking good right now at least on paper and only Ted” the ultimate contrarian douchebag” Nelson would argue otherwise.

  • Robinson Tilapia

    Watching the Ken Burns Central Park Jogger documentary right now. Amazing the footage they were able to get their hands on. Just excellent stuff.

    My recollection of the case is hazy but my wife helped do some research for a book on the topic.

    • Andy Pettitte’s Fibula

      It’s crazy that the police were able to get confessions from those teenagers for a crime that they apparently didn’t commit.

      • Robinson Tilapia

        Apparently? That’s pretty clear and settled.

      • Robinson Tilapia

        Honestly, though, film’s on On Demand right now. Very well done. Highly recommended.

        • dkidd

          haven’t seen the film, but i remember hearing that the term “wilding” was the result of the police misunderstanding one of the kids saying they were out “looking for the WILD THING”

          am I imagining this?

  • Raul Ibanez AKA Tom Marvolo Riddle AKA True Yankee(TM)

    Pat D, I saw your question last night about the new Star Trek movie, I never watched Star Trek or the movies when I was younger and the reboot was the first I’d seen. Not being able to judge it against other Star Trek flicks, I looked at it as a decent, if somewhat long and silly, scifi space movie. The new one looks slightly grittier, and a little better (but I also have a mancrush on Benedict Cumberbatch because of Sherlock so take my opinion with a grain of salt)

  • pistol pete

    What an exciting off season. We lost our starting RF 25/80, catcher 22/55, lost our starting 3b for 6 mos with hip surgery, have a 39 yr old ss in a cast for 6 more weeks, lost last year’s 45 save closer and replaced him with Mo at 43 coming off major ACL surgery. We resigned 2 quality but aging pitchers for a year and 27m. We have no replacement for Arod yet, nor Swisher, nor Martin, nor Ibanez. This budget watch is a blast to watch develop in the off season. He may have made some bad moves but at least he tried, this new way of running a team is a blueprint to the 2012 Res Sox. Right now our lineup would be Gardner/Jeter/Cano/Tex/Granderson/Nunez/Nix/Cervelli/Dickerson, WOW.

    • Preston

      The off-season is never exciting. It’s a handful of moves stretched out of a 4 month period. Most days will be boring. Get over it. The point about letting Soriano go in favor of Mo is asinine. I’d rather have a 43 yo Mo on one leg than Soriano. I wish they had signed Martin, but he’s a league average catcher, not an all-star, maybe they’ll make a trade or add another vet through FA, but I wouldn’t be to upset if Cervelli or Romine got the job. Ibanez was a 1 win player last year, good riddance, getting Gardner back in LF instead of Voldemort makes us a much better team. Swisher is going to be a huge loss, and A-Rod will be missed, but the Yankees are and will continue to look for replacements for both (who knows they might still bring back Swisher), I’m not ready to pencil in Nunez and Dickerson yet. So take a deep breath, back away from the cliff, it’s still December, and if you do the math you’d realize that 189 isn’t that restrictive.

      • The Big City of Dreams

        and if you do the math you’d realize that 189 isn’t that restrictive.

        —————-

        When a portion of it is locked up in 3-4 guys it is restrictive

        • Preston

          CC, Tex and A-Rod are the only ones under contract for 72.75
          Jeter’s option for 8 has incentives that he’s probably earned will just assume he gets all of them and gets 17.
          Nova, Gardner and Robertson will get arb raises say 15 for all three (which is a high estimate). So that’s 104.75
          The 15 men not on the 40 for say 7.5 brings us to 112.25
          Now let’s go big on Cano for 25 per so 137.25
          We now have 52 million leftover to fill out the roster. Obviously that’s pretty tight, but it’s doable, hell if we signed Hamilton for 25 per and brought Granderson back at 15 per it’s still doable. We’d just have to fill C, the bench bullpen and back end of the rotation with young guys, if we filled those spots for the minimum we’d still have around 8 million to throw at a starter.

          • I am not the droids you’re looking for…

            You and your silly math!

            Yeah I was pounding this drum loudly – Cano and Hamilton are very possible. It’d mean some league minimum guys at the fringes, but worth it IMO.

    • dalelama

      Spot Pete the homers are in denial.

      • Robinson Tilapia

        Then go to a Yankee haters blog.

        #189

    • Ted Nelson

      That you’re citing RBIs and Saves as serious stats tells me all I need to know.

      A-Rod is out 3-6, and even at 6 would play 1pover 1/2 a season. How many teams out there get full time replacements for guys who might miss none of the season? Even with the budget, the Yankees have made a $12 mill offer to do just that. Chill out. There’s a whole lot of off-season left.

  • Alex’s Rod

    So if the Dodgers are the west coast Yankees, does that make them the Donkees?

    • Robinson Tilapia

      Yes. Should fit right in with the Mighty Ducks over there.

  • http://hasanyoneseenmyshoe.blogspot.com/ Derwood Morris

    CC is so good.

    Damn that’s a fantastic minute and a half.

  • Raul Ibanez AKA Tom Marvolo Riddle AKA True Yankee(TM)

    So, I’m not one to talk about “heart” and shit like that, but I’m watching top 50 finishes on MLB Network, the Yankees were actually featured both positively and negatively a decent amount (and actually number one from the LDS Ibanez walk off)…not to say that they weren’t pumped with every win, but at the same time looking at the games that the A’s were featured in, it’s just two different levels of excitement. The A’s looked like the 2003 Yankees beating the Sox in the ALCS…the Yankees in a post season walk off acted like an April Walk-off. I can’t explain it but it just seems like there is a spark that was missing like all year. Fuck’d if I know what it is.

    • Rocky Road Redemption

      Yankees: In the ALCS.

      A’s: Not in the ALCS.

      I know this isn’t really directly related to what you were saying, but I still think it had to be said.

      As to what you’re saying-meh, I still think we’re seeing what we all expect to see. The idea of the Yankees lacking “passion” because they’re “old” is already in our heads, so even if we don’t do it consciously I think we’ll tend to convince ourselves that we’re seeing manifestations of that.

    • YanksFanInBeantown

      Well, most of the roster has been to the World Series, no? The ALDS is probably just another game at that point.

    • Ted Nelson

      Could be. Could also just be two different cultures, neither necessarily being superior. Cool, calm professionalism isn’t necessarily any worse than excitement. Over a full season and certainly multiple seasons, one could easily argue that it’s superior to getting really excited by results… which can lead to getting crushed after failure as much as getting pumped after victory.

  • Hornets686

    1. Trade Curtis Granderson, Eduardo Nunez, Brett Marshall, Francisco Cervelli, Rafael De Paula, and Adam Warren for David DeJesus, Matt Garza, Dioner Navarro, and Alfonso Soriano

    2. Trade Ivan Nova, Slade Heathcoat, Cody Eppley, David Adams for Chase Headley

    3. Trade Chase Whitley for John Jaso

    4. Sign Stephen Drew, Grady Sizemore, Brian Wilson and Placido Polanco

    3. Re-Sign Raullllllllll Ibanez

    • the tenth inning stretch

      I’m no GM, but to me, number one seems like a big overpay, while on 2 and 3, the other team’s GM probably hangs up on us. The guys in number 4 are all old, broken-down guys you’d probably have to overpay because they’re brand names.

    • Robinson Tilapia

      No way.

      Next comment on this thread, btw, will be #189. It’s a sign.

  • Robert

    Well I guess the Dodgers are the new EVIL EMPIRE!!!!

  • Mike HC

    From Rotoworld.com: “According to Jon Heyman of CBSSports.com, the Mariners “may be amenable” to offering Josh Hamilton “five years, or perhaps even six.”
    Heyman does add that the chances they would offer a deal of such length is “fairly speculative” on his part, but he says the Mariners are “aggressively” pursuing the outfielder. Now that the Rangers have lost out on Zack Greinke, Seattle might have to offer Hamilton 5-6 years to pry him away from the Rangers. Texas is reportedly willing to go to four years with the 31-year-old.”

    This report could be completely wrong, but it always seemed like getting Hamilton at 3 or even 4 years was a pipe dream.

    • I am not the droids you’re looking for…

      I agree bc to me 3-4 years is a no brainer for him.

      As much as I want him in that framework,,at 5 or more NFW unless years 5 and beyond are all team options. I could conceive of year 5 being based on lots of PAs in years 3 and 4.

  • Bavarian Yankee

    lol, Greinke can opt out after the 3rd year of his contract with the Dodgers. I don’t get why teams give players options like that. Maybe they hope that he’s doing great and then they’re off the hook when he opts out and the decline years are coming.