Feb
14

Heyman: There’s a “significant difference” in valuation during Cano talks

By

Via Jon Heyman: There is a “significant difference” in valuation during talks about a new contract between Robinson Cano and the Yankees. The club views their second baseman as a top 10-15 player while Scott Boras is thinking higher than that. “There are few elite players,” said the agent. “That just is a very short list – less than five … Robinson is happy being a Yankee, and both sides recognize that this is one of the elite players in the game.”

Hal Steinbrenner recently confirmed the two sides had a “conversation or two” about a new deal, and Heyman says they have indeed started talks about an extension. A new agreement is not remotely close and there’s at least a chance Cano will become a free agent after the season. So yeah, this report isn’t terribly surprising. Boras always shoots for the moon with his top clients. I’ve written quite a bit about a new contract for Robbie lately, so make sure you check out this post from earlier in the week as well as today’s poll.

Categories : Asides, Hot Stove League

173 Comments»

  1. Pat D says:

    There is a “significant difference” between me taking Jon Heyman seriously and……things I actually take seriously.

    Shit, my imagination is broken.

  2. your mom says:

    Nice knowing ya Robbie.

  3. Rob G says:

    Dear God, no. They have three overpriced, past prime contracts already. Haven’t they learned anything?

    Worse, even if we accept the best possible comp for Cano – Rod Carew (and Cano has never peaked as high) – where will he play? Carew became a full-time 1B at 29 and then averaged 3-4 wins by the time he was past 30.

    No thanks. You pay for longevity at SS and CF and C. You don’t overpay a 2B (or a 1B) to put up 3-4 WAR, at best. That’s pure stupidity. If Utley and Kinsler aren’t worth the cash, then neither is Cano.

    $100M committed to four players in 2014 would be idiotic. That’s exactly the reason they don’t have a major league catcher or Rf this year.

    • Preston says:

      Yes the way they’ve done business for the last 20 years is so “flawed”. Fools should’ve learned their lesson from all of this winning.

      • Rob G says:

        And then you get “lessons” like 2002-2008 and 2010-present.

        Of course, they only make $500M/year but are insist on a salary cap. With the latter, overpaying for past-prime performance is not going to get them far.

        • Robinson Tilapia says:

          Oh no. Please, not anything like 2002-8, where they missed the playoffs once, or last season, where they made the ALCS.

          BUT TEYRE DA YANKEES N DEY SHULD WIN EVERY……fuck off.

          • Rob G says:

            Wow, how big of you and your keyboard! You are so tough!

            Bottomline: They were deeply flawed in the years after 2001. Only an utter homer would pretend otherwise because MLB created additional playoff spots. The same idiots as you argued they were a great team in the 80s because they had the most wins in the decade.

          • Steve says:

            The owners of the team have made it clear that “TEYRE DA YANKEES N DEY SHULD WIN EVERY” year. So the team claims that is the goal, but the great Robinson Tilapia says it isn’t and he did with the freshest misspelling joke ever. /memed

            • Preston says:

              To say that winning the WS is your goal and to find no value in accomplishing anything less than that are two different things.

              • Steve says:

                “We are the Yankees,” Levine told ESPNNewYork.com Friday as he and the franchise coped with being eliminated at home in Game 5 of the ALDS by the Detroit Tigers. “That is the way The Boss set it up. When you don’t win the World Series, it is a bitter disappointment and not a successful year.”

                • Get Phelps Up says:

                  Levine isn’t the owner of the Yankees.

                  • Steve says:

                    “That is the way The Boss set it up.”

                    Unless he’s talking about Springsteen, that’s a mandate from the owner of the Yankees. Or in this case the immediate past owner

                    • Preston says:

                      Does that mean that’s the way you have to or should perceive it? I’d rather enjoy success. It doesn’t mean I’m not heart broken when each season ends just because I don’t reflect on every one that ended without a WS as a failure.

                    • Get Phelps Up says:

                      Hal said after that season “I personally share in our fans’ disappointment that this season has ended without a championship, that is, and always will be, our singular goal every season.” It was disappointing, but not a failure.

                      Saying the season was a failure and referencing George’s mindset in the 80′s was just Levine talking out of his ass (which he has a propensity to do) after what was a crushing defeat.

                    • Steve says:

                      It doesn’t mean you can’t enjoy success, but it should mean that you shouldn’t be an asshole to the people that share the team’s stated philosophy, as Tilapia has a real knack for doing.

                      Fans that think that a year without a world series, despite being the marching orders from the owners are apparently apes that can’t spell. But it’s cool for all of the owners and players to think that way.

            • Slugger27 says:

              agreed steve. nothing less funny than the caps lock misspelling meme still being used in 2013.

              and when the owners and presidents and front office execs constantly shove the “WS or bust” mantra down our throats every year, theres nothing wrong with the fans having those expectations. after all, weve been told to.

            • Organic Pepitas says:

              An overdue put-down of the Exalted R-Tils (and by association his merry wannabe band of SWPL Ironic Jokesters) made MY day, tell you what…

              Yikes, now I angered The Lord of RAB Posters, so off to the stocks I go…

        • Pat D says:

          Congratulations, you’ve won the awards for “Best Ability To Completely Take For Granted How Hard It Actually Is To Get To A World Series” and “Best Performance In Not Realizing The Late 90′s Run Is Something That Happens Once In A Generation, If Ever Again.”

        • Havok9120 says:

          I really, reeeeeallly hope you aren’t saying that 2002-2008 and 2010-present were poor outcomes. Because that’d be incredibly silly.

          • Rob G says:

            Flawed teams got flawed results even after over $1 Billion spent. Dumb is as dumb did – like Bernie starting over Lofton.

            • Pat D says:

              Right, the 2000 team was without flaws.

              • Rob G says:

                At least they were the simple continuation of what worked in 1996-1999. By 2002, they didn’t have the pitching to compete. 2009 they finally had CC.

                Now they won’t hit a lick.

                • Havok9120 says:

                  I have a feeling that that would not be your argument had they lost the 2000 World Series.

                  • Rob G says:

                    Nope, cause I could have made that argument about 2001 and didn’t. They got old then didn’t replace the right people.

                    Of course, Cano is only prospect they developed since then. That’s why you homers have such hard-ons for him.

                • Pat D says:

                  They really didn’t have good pitching in 2000 either. They won a weak division and somehow snapped back into it when the playoffs started. That took a lot of good fortune.

                  • Rob G says:

                    Now you’re just making shit up. Their pitching was the same players they relied on in 1998-1999.

                    • Pat D says:

                      Just because it was the same people doesn’t mean it was the same pitching.

                      Runs Allowed:
                      1998 – 656
                      1999 – 731
                      2000 – 814

                      Team ERA:
                      1998 – 3.82
                      1999 – 4.13
                      2000 – 4.76

                      Team WHIP:
                      1998 – 1.251
                      1999 – 1.377
                      2000 – 1.429

                      Average Pitchers Age:
                      1998 – 30.2
                      1999 – 31.2
                      2000 – 32.0

                      Maybe aging had a lot to do with that. Maybe it was a random fluke. Maybe it was decreased quality.

                    • Get Phelps Up says:

                      Their ERA+ in 2000 was barley above league average. The same players doesn’t mean the same results.

            • Havok9120 says:

              I…

              Alright.

        • Preston says:

          Hmmm… I thought the lesson of 2002-2008 was the playoffs are a crapshoot. Because they averaged 97 wins during that span, the worst of which was 89 and they made the playoffs six out of seven years. Anybody who whines about the 2000′s is a spoiled brat who deserves to be a Pirates fan.

          • Pat D says:

            This is why they hate us!

          • Rob G says:

            Nope, that’s the lazy lesson. Those team beat the crap out of shitty pitching. The playoffs do not feature shitty pitching.

            • Preston says:

              You and Joe Morgan can keep spitting out useless platitudes, despite all evidence to the contrary.

            • Get Phelps Up says:

              The Yankees OPSes in the playoff series they lost from 2002-2008:

              2002: .834
              2003: .743
              2004: .840
              2005: .742
              2006: .692
              2007: .704

              So except for 2 years they did a pretty good job hitting the not shitty pitching in the playoffs.

            • Havok9120 says:

              Exactly. Because all the other teams refused to play against the bad pitchers and forfeited those gam…

              Wait, what?

          • Kevin Schappert says:

            Playoffs are not a crapshoot–if so, then the Yanks lucked out in 96, 98, 99, 00–bad argument

            • vicki says:

              ok, kevin. not a crapshoot. what then? destiny?

            • Preston says:

              Of course they did. The 2000 team wasn’t even very good they were 10th in runs scored and 12th in runs allowed, they were 26th in UZR defense and weren’t very good at baserunning. But they got to the playoffs (with only 87 wins) and anything can happen in a series between two teams that were good enough to get to the post-season.

      • dalelama says:

        One World Series win in 12 years I find very disappointing.

  4. Kentucky Grilled Chicken says:

    trade him to st louis, please please please

    • Get Phelps Up says:

      There’s a good chance that the value he gives the Yankees in 2013 is greater than the value he’ll fetch in a trade.

      • Rob G says:

        At $15M, I’m not so sure. By June, the Yankees could be struggling to score even 4.5 runs a game with Cano in the lineup. At that point, if a contender comes calling with 1 Grade A prospect and 2 Grade Bs, that’s 18 years of value. Even if Cano is playing out of his mind and looking at a 8 WAR year, you don’t think a solid trade could net them a total of 5 WAR over the next 6 years? And that’s not counting the dollars saved.

        • Now Batting says:

          Sure, lets just assume the Yankees will struggle to score runs to fit our point.

          • Rob G says:

            Sure, let’s assume removing Swisher and Martin and A-Rod from the lineup and replacing them with clear downgrades is an improvement!

            • Pat D says:

              Your assertion, …struggling to score even 4.5 runs a game…, is not guaranteed to happen because they’re without those guys. Possible, yes; definite, hardly.

              • Robinson Tilapia says:

                BRILLIANT.

                • Havok9120 says:

                  Is drunkenly browsing RAB really the way you want to spend your evening?

                  • Robinson Tilapia says:

                    Eight shots of bourbon. Two bacon-wrapped hotdogs. One plate of artisan bacon. One pork taco.

                    Sober.

                    • Havok9120 says:

                      Only eight? You gotta step that up at an Expo.

                    • Rob G says:

                      No kidding, you really are a fat ass at his keyboard!

                    • Robinson Tilapia says:

                      The pours weren’t big, but there wasn’t enough food to make up for what you were ingesting. I also really wanted to focus on bourbons I wouldn’t drink otherwise.

                      What Jim Beam was doing there, I have no idea.

                      It was fun. If I had to pay for it, I’m not quite sure I’d have done it, but it was lovely as a V-Day present and I am very grateful for it.

                      For those who are actually paying attention, I attended the 2013 Bourbon and Bacon Expo tonight.

                    • vicki says:

                      hey, white boy. i attend a bacon and bourbon expo every day of life.

                      go yankees!

            • Havok9120 says:

              No one’s saying it’s an improvement. We’re saying that there is, as yet, no evidence that the offense is bad. It could be awful. It could be top 10.

              And that, of course, does not take into account that scoring 4.5 runs per game is hardly “struggling to score runs,” considering that that statistic would have had them 10th in RPG the last two seasons. Sure, it would have been awful in 2007, but you may have noticed a bit of a decline in offense around the league since then.

              • Need Pitching & Hitting (but mostly hitting) says:

                3/5 AL playoff teams last year scored fewer than 4.5 r/g. Even if the Yankees did only manage that pace, they won’t be out of contention by the trade deadline unless the pitching completely imploded anyways.

        • Robinson Tilapia says:

          “At that point, if a contender comes calling with 1 Grade A prospect and 2 Grade Bs, that’s 18 years of value.”

          I laughed.

        • Havok9120 says:

          ….dear God.

    • Robinson Tilapia says:

      Go away, please please please

    • Govin says:

      I think One year of Cano, and a top draft pick is better then most things we could get in a trade. Having him leave this year would make it very difficult for the Yankees to make it to the postseason.

  5. Robinson Tilapia says:

    I actually think there’s a chance this doesn’t get to free agency from reading this. You have to think that the fact that there’s actual talks means there’s a willingness on both sides to explore an extension. My hope is that this gets done quickly, although hope and reality? Two drastically different things.

    • Govin says:

      I understand the whole budget thing, and how second basemen decline rapidly. But I would still love to have him back. I would love to go into next offseason knowing Cano is wrapped up.

    • Havok9120 says:

      I almost certainly wouldn’t do 7 years after this season. I would at least consider 7 years if it started with this season.

      Unfortunately (I think), that is very much unlike to happen.

  6. Murderers' Row Boat says:

    After the A-Rod deal, I’m sure the Yankees front office wants nothing to do with paying a 40 middle infielder $25m.

    • Robinson Tilapia says:

      Disagree. Completely.

      • Murderers' Row Boat says:

        So you like having a massive contract that hamstrings the payroll?

        • Need Pitching & Hitting (but mostly hitting) says:

          Hal hamstrings the payroll more than any contract on the books does. The Yankees can afford 2-3 bad contracts and still field a great team. The biggest thing hurting more now is not currently having any real cheap/real high value players.

          • Rob G says:

            Brilliant! They can “afford” 2-3 bad contracts! Like they can “afford” 2-3 three wet noodle bats?

            • Need Pitching & Hitting (but mostly hitting) says:

              Completely different. The combination of ownership holding the line on payroll growth over the past several years and being a mostly veteran, full market price, team lead to the constraints. There is absolutely no reason, with their resources, that the Yankees can’t completely eat 2-3 bad contracts (and they haven’t had to completely eat any yet) and still be one of the highest spending teams excluding those contracts.
              Obviously having bad contracts isn’t ideal, but the Yankee resource advantage gives them the opportunity to be able to live through the “victory lap” years of a contract and still compete. It’s the price of signing star level players in free agency.

              • Jd says:

                .222 BA across 217 post season at bats. Did not hit over .100 in the last two post seasons. He is a very good player, but I am wondering if we can afford multiple bad contracts that can’t hit when it counts.

        • Robinson Tilapia says:

          I don’t think “hamstring” is the word you’re looking for there.

          I know it’s suddenly fashionable to hate on big money contracts (on here with about 30% of the commenting base, but I digress) because we can’t see the forest from the Alex, but big money contract were, are, and will continue to be part of doing business in Major League Baseball.

    • vicki says:

      thanks for the laugh.

  7. trr says:

    this is gonna be a rough ride….

  8. 189,189,189,...dont you hate thatnumber says:

    even at 25 million a year he still would not not run ground balls out.

    • Pat D says:

      So you’re saying he’ll start to run them out?

    • Govin says:

      The problem with Cano is that he makes everything look easy.
      He would make tight roping across Niagara falls while juggling five chainsaws look easy.

      • Robinson Tilapia says:

        “The problem with Cano is that he makes everything look easy.”

        I’m not familiar with that part of the Dominican Republic. On what side of the island is that on?

        • Pat D says:

          The part that isn’t 95% deforested.

          Seriously, I’ve been learning about the hell that is Haiti in my anthropology class because it’s been my professor’s project for years. He showed an aerial shot of the border. To the right is the Dominican Republic, filled with trees. To the left is Haiti, completely stripped bare.

          It’s very eerie.

          • Robinson Tilapia says:

            The Caribbean is…….complicated.

            • Pat D says:

              Colonialism FTW.

              • Robinson Tilapia says:

                We had our honeymoon in St. Lucia at a beautiful resort….which was a former plantation. None of the resorts were owned by locals, but only employed locals. Tourism’s a huge industry, but it doesn’t really reach the people in these countries. The worst part was that we were the only couple there who honestly noticed and connected to this.

                I have a very conflicted relationship with the xenophobia and racism that’s so inherent in Caribbean culture.

                • Pat D says:

                  Yea, I’ve found it troubling. It’s like when I hear people say the president has “anti-Colonial” beliefs and I just kind of laugh. I guess those people fail to realize that colonialism was only good for white people.

              • dalelama says:

                Colonialism has absolutely nothing to do with Haiti’s current deforestration.

          • Govin says:

            I think Ive seen that picture to, its pretty sad.It makes me think of the picture of South and North korea at night. Its pretty easy to find on the internet.

        • Now Batting says:

          To be fair, it’s not only white people that have said Cano is lazy. There’s an interview with his father that I’m too lazy (irony) to dig up where he said even his coaches growing up said he looked lazy.

          • Govin says:

            Your probably right. Honestly I don’t watch many games(I’m stuck using gameday ) so my opinion is pretty useless in this situation.

    • vicki says:

      he so very tall, brown and handsome.

  9. Greg says:

    Keep him for the year, then take the pick when he goes to the Dodgers for 8/200.

  10. Get Phelps Up says:

    Well this thread sure escalated fast.

  11. RetroRob says:

    “And there’s at least a chance Cano becomes a free agent after this season?”

    I would say there’s at least a chance Cano won’t become a free agent after this season. I don’t see Boras not taking Cano to market.

    • Tom says:

      Exactly… the only real downside risk for Cano at this point is a career impacting injury. Even a down year from Cano would probably not significantly impact his value at this point.

      Even it the Yankees offered him FA type deal right now, Boras will just want to shop it around to drive up the Yankees price further. Negotiating with him now is only going to let him set a really high floor for the offseason. All he’s doing now is trying to gauge that fallback # in the offseason. The Yankees are effectively negotiation against themselves right now.

      They should give him a #, get a # and if there is a large gap, table the discussions.

  12. RetroRob says:

    So the Yankees view Cano as one of the top 10-15 players, while Boras views Cano as a top five.

    Hmmm, I wonder who is correct. I believe Cano has the highest WAR of any player over the last three years, although some of that is driven by Trout only playing one year, Hamilton injuries, Kemp injury, etc. And then there are pitchers. Hmmm, Boras may not be too far off here. Yikes.

    • Dorian says:

      EXACTLY. This thought that Robinson Cano would get some overpriced contract is ludicrous.

      Is it an ideal contract to keep the Yankees flexible? No

      Is Top 5 player in baseball Robbie’s worth? Hell Yeah.

    • Bob Buttons says:

      I think the Yankees does view him as a top 5 but obviously can’t admit it or they’d have to pay way more instead of possibly a couple of million less if Cano takes a 1 million a year discount to join the Yankees. Very unlikely, but worth a shot, right?

    • Jim Is Bored says:

      The problem is we can’t evaluate only the last 3 years. We have to evaluate the future, which is what the Yankees want to pay him for.

      He’s he a top 2-3 player in 2013? It’s possible, but it’s not a guarantee.

  13. Darren says:

    Robbie should get whatever he can.

    but i would really miss seeing his awesome across the body throws.

  14. vicki says:

    yankee for life. bet against at yer peril.

  15. sandyg says:

    st.louis would jump at cano if the yankees asked for taveras and rosenthal. do it now cashman before you get nothing but a draft choice for cano.

  16. Jersey Joe says:

    Everybody is saying that he would be waaay overpaid. But without Cano, 2014 will be horrible. It’s not like they had any glaring holes had ARod left after ’07, I mean they had Jeter, Abreu, Cano, Posada, and Melky, all healthy, along with Matsui, Giambi, and Damon as slight question marks. Without Cano, every place on the roster would be filled by rookies or mediocre players, and Tex would be our best player if Jeter has a down year. Having Gardner and maybe Granderson will be OK, but IMO without Cano, the Yankees are entering a rebuilding stage.

  17. Bill says:

    Its a show by Hal like he is going to pay Cano the money he requested.

    The second baseman next year will either be David Adams or Corbin Joseph.

  18. Slappy McWaterbug says:

    Nice to see what happens when the adults go to bed.

  19. Another really long name which has no point (formerly "an important / cool name") says:

    The Yanks probably are in the 15-17 per year range while Boras is still up near 25-27 a year. They will pobably agree in the middle, which is about 20-22 Mill a year for about 7-8 years. Contract would be probably 140-176 range. That I think the Yanks will do. As for the Dodgers, 44 years at 91 per.

  20. I am not the droids you're looking for... says:

    I think this is going to end badly. As in 8/200 badly.

  21. Adam says:

    Let him walk!

  22. mick taylor says:

    if yanks could get the top minor league prospect in baseball, trade cano. yanks are most likely, not winning the world series this year, so if you could get a can’t miss prospect and a second baseman i would do it rather than spending 200 million on a 31 year old second baseman. then resign granderson for 3 years to partially make up for cano’s bat.

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