Jul
07

Update: Pineda officially optioned to Triple-A Scranton

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4:37pm: Pineda has officially been activated off the 60-day DL and optioned to Triple-A Scranton. Curtis Granderson was transferred to the 60-day DL to clear a 40-man roster spot.

11:22am: Via Donnie Collins: Michael Pineda is scheduled to start for Triple-A Scranton on Thursday, which is a pretty great indication the Yankees will option him down rather than add him to the big league roster when his rehab clock expires tomorrow. This isn’t much of a surprise; he never eclipsed 80 pitches during his rehab assignment and there’s no room for him in the MLB rotation. The good news is that if Pineda stays down for 2-3 weeks, his free agency will be pushed back from 2016 to 2017.

Categories : Asides, Injuries
  • Robinson Tilapia

    There you have it.

    We’ve waited a year and a half. We can wait another few weeks.

    • OhioYanks

      And we might get back one of those years by waiting the few weeks.

  • None

    Good news for the Steinbrenners, not for Pineda.

    • Need Pitching & Hitting (but mostly hitting)

      Good news for the Yankees.

      • trr

        No surprise

    • Robinson Tilapia

      I’m sure he wasn’t the least bit surprised by this.

      I think any young pitcher after major surgery would be wishing they were still around in 2017 first, much less cashing in at the time.

  • Need Pitching & Hitting (but mostly hitting)

    smart

  • Geno714

    Lets not forget Pineda came to camp out of shape last year and was overthrowing to compensate. That is supposedly what led to the shoulder damage. This is on him not the Yankees. He let everyone down last year.

    • Cool Lester Smooth

      …okay?

    • John Thompson

      Geno, I remain unconvinced that proper due diligence was performed by the Yankees prior to the deal. The drop in Pinedas numbers and apparent velocity after the all star break should have alerted the medical staff to order a contrast MR exam. They did not, hence the very real possibility the Yankees received “damaged goods” that may or may not fully recover..

      • Bo Knows

        For the love of…..look at the splits between the 1st & 2nd halfs
        and not at ERA

        http://www.fangraphs.com/stats.....eason=2011

        and here is his velocity chart for the year

        http://www.fangraphs.com/pitch.....8;pitch=FA

        the only start that stands out is his last start, and he hadn’t pitched in about 2-3 weeks because the Mariners had shut him down for the year because he was close to his innings limit. They had to end up using him because they had no one else.

        • I’m not the droids you’re looking for…

          Shh. Don’t let your silly facts ruin his narrative.

  • bpdelia

    the only logical move. pushing back the free agency is smart. but even outside of that he needs 3 starts of throwing 100 pitches and really succeeding in AAA. his last start was nice enough but you’d prefer to bring him up after a 7.2 1 run 5 hit 1 bb 9k type outing.

    dude is gonna fucking pumped anyway better to have him comfy and confident. plus there isn’t room right now

  • http://www.twitter.com/matt__harris Matt :: Sec110

    It’s the right move all around, from both a financial and developmental standpoint.

    If they could move Joba, I wonder if they’d be open to moving Hughes into the pen again for the stretch run?

    CC
    Kuroda
    Andy
    Nova (not an overreaction to Friday’s start btw)
    Pineda/Phelps?

    I’d stay away from Pineda in the pen. If he’s not going to start, I’d rather him stay at 3A.

    • Thurdonpaul

      I like this idea. I also like calling AAA, 3A. :)

    • Cool Lester Smooth

      I’d rather have Nova in the pen, because he’s really not very good and we want to make sure Hughes will reject a QO.

      • OhioYanks

        Why do you have such a hard-on for Nova? Every time his name comes up it’s pretty much assured you’ll rip him.

        • Cool Lester Smooth

          It’s just fatigue from 2+ years of listening to idiots verbally fellate him and declare him the next great homegrown Yankee starter when he’s never been anything more than a decent fifth starter outside of 3 months: the last 2 of 2011 and June of 2012.

          I hope he does well when he pitches for us, but the long and short of it is that he’s not terribly good at pitching, because he has awful command.

          • OhioYanks

            You seem to lump anyone with a good thing to say about Nova into a group that thinks he’s an ace. The group that thinks he’s an ace is probably 100 people worldwide, while there are a ton of good things to say about him.

            You seem to me to be almost as extreme in your view as those who think he’s an ace, only in the opposite direction. You say really over the top things about him and seem to have concluded half way through the guy’s 26 year old season how good he is.

            • Cool Lester Smooth

              Who said “ace?” I’m talking about all the people holding him up as a great #3, “the best starter since Pettitte” and better than Hughes. They’re really, really annoying.

              And I haven’t “determined his future,” as you so hyperbolically state. I just don’t think there’s any reason to expect him to be any more than a back-end starter based on his career to date.

              Because he really, really has not been very good in the 8 years he’s been stateside with the exception of those 3 months.

              • OhioYanks

                How much competition does he really have for best homegrown starter since Pettitte? (Mo actually debuted a month after Pettitte, but came into the org earlier and obviously isn’t a SP.) El Duque is kind of a cop-out. Wang is probably the best, but otherwise who else? Mendoza, Joba, and Robertson are candidates but not as starters. After that you’re down to… Ted Lilly (not even homegrown)? Phelps? Nova is certainly in the discussion.

                Objectively he’s not any worse than Hughes. Since Nova’s first full season in 2011 we’re talking about
                4.34 ERA/4.17 FIP/3.95 xFIP/4.7 fWAR/4.5 bWAR ages 24-6 in 379.2 IP
                vs.
                4.64/4.51/4.51/4.1/2.1 at ages 25-7 in 357 IP
                You might find them annoying, but you don’t have much of a case that they’re wrong. I would say it’s too close to call.

                A #3 starter is pretty subjective, but I’d guess a lot of that is carried over from the 2011 season where he certainly had the results of a #2 or 3 SP or projecting forward.

                • Cool Lester Smooth

                  I don’t count 2011 when evaluating Phil Hughes, because, unless he decides to show up to camp completely out of shape and hurt his arm again, it tells us absolutely nothing going forward.

                  If you looked up “outlier” in the dictionary, Hughes’ 2011 would be one of the examples, along with Nova’s August and September that year.

                  • OhioYanks

                    Clearly you have neither looked up “outlier” nor taken a statistics class. You’re embarrassing yourself by pretending to know more than you do.

                    Instead of arbitrarily deciding what seasons you want to exclude, just look at their career numbers. I wasn’t trying to bias the data. The story is the same career wise, other than Hughes obviously having a lot more IP. I just went with recent history figuring we could agree it’s more relevant.

                    The difference over most time periods you pull is probably not all that significant. You haven’t pointed to a single thing suggesting Hughes is better other than your opinion.

                    • Cool Lester Smooth

                      I hue-mahn. Sometimes, the hue-mahns make funny with the jokes. You’ll get there someday, buddy!

                      But yeah, taking a year in which we know Hughes was injured as representative of how he will pitch when he is healthy is stupid. Full stop.

                    • OhioYanks

                      But, yeah, I didn’t do that. I looked at 2.5 years. The length of time since Nova has been a full time MLB SP. I also looked at their whole careers. I also looked since the start of 2012. In all the cases my conclusions were the same.

                      You seem to have looked at nothing. Or at least you have pointed to zero evidence.

              • OhioYanks

                This sort of thing, by the way, makes it hard to take your points seriously: “Because he really, really has not been very good in the 8 years he’s been stateside with the exception of those 3 months.” It’s a pretty subjective comment, and you end up coming across like a Hughes fan who dislikes Nova.

                • Cool Lester Smooth

                  When has he been good for an extended stretch outside of those 3 months? I’m genuinely curious, because you take umbrage whenever anyone says that, but never offer any evidence to the contrary.

                  • OhioYanks

                    I go through point by point above. He hasn’t been “very good” aside from those three months if “very good” means front-end MLB SP, no, but he hasn’t been bad either.

                    I am not here to defend Nova or say that he’s a great SP. I just don’t see why you go out of your way to bash him so often when someone says anything remotely positive about him. The only possibility I can come up with is that you’re a big Hughes fan who overvalues Hughes and has created some sort of zero-sum game between the two.

                    “I’m talking about all the people holding him up as a great #3, “the best starter since Pettitte” and better than Hughes. They’re really, really annoying.”

                    Only one of the three points made by the people who annoy you really contradicts

                    “I just don’t think there’s any reason to expect him to be any more than a back-end starter based on his career to date.”

                    Unless you think Hughes is more than a back-end SP or are that concerned that they’re slighting Wang. I don’t think Hughes has any stronger or weaker a case than Nova.

                    There are some reasons for optimism. You can disagree with the conclusions that they’ll add up to improved performance, but they are there.

                    • Cool Lester Smooth

                      I don’t think Hughes can be more than a back-end starter for the Yankees (although I do think he could be a 2/3 in a big NL park, which would mitigate the homers while allowing him to maintain his genuinely great peripherals), but there’s nothing in Nova’s record to say he’s definitively better as so, so many annoying people insist.

                      Basically, I think they’re similar pitchers, in that they can be extremely inconsistent, but that Hughes stays on for longer and that Nova is worse when he’s off.

                      That also means that I don’t think there should be a discussion about who goes to the pen when Pineda gets back, as Hughes building up enough value that he will reject a qualifying offer and net the Yanks a first round pick is a far greater reward than anything Nova can give us in terms of performance for the rest of the year.

                    • OhioYanks

                      Glad you feel that way, but the facts don’t seem to back you up nor do you seem interested in actually examining them.

                      Hughes’ peripherals are thoroughly mediocre. Not sure which ones you are referring to. As I pointed out to you, Nova’s peripherals are better than Hughes’. His xFIP is half a point lower than Hughes’ over the past three years. It’s a point and a quarter lower this season. His HR/9 was 1.48 last season when he was struggling, so a big NL park might help him as much as Hughes.

                    • Cool Lester Smooth

                      I was talking about K/9 and BB/9. I don’t care about his xFIP, because GB% is such a huge component of that, and GB% matters a hell of a lot less in a big park.

                      Moving to a bigger park turns HRs, Hughes’ problem, into doubles and outs, but doubles and triples stay doubles and triples, meaning that Nova gets much less than Hughes.

                      Basically, Jered Weaver is getting a lot more help from Angel Stadium than Joe Blanton is.

                      (Not perfect examples, as Weaver doesn’t quite have Hughes’ K/9 over the last couple of years and Blanton walks a lot fewer men than Nova does.)

                    • OhioYanks

                      You really are unwilling to be reasonable, aren’t you?

                      Nova has way more HR/FB than Hughes since 2012 started (since we’re not allowed to look at 2011). Their HR/9 are 1.3 vs. 1.56. Of course, the fact that Nova has limited his HRs this season is something, you know, that’s good. Not something to twist into a bad thing because Hughes would benefit from a pitcher friendly park. So does every P.

                      Nova’s K/BB is not that much different from Hughes’ since the start of 2012 either. It’s better this season.

                      Basically, you have no freaking clue what you’re talking about. You seem to have just made up a narrative about Hughes and Nova without actually looking into the stats.

                    • Cool Lester Smooth

                      Nova’s pitched 44 innings this season, dumbass. Only 32 of them have been as a starter. I’m not taking that as representative of anything other than the fact that he’s pitched well for 44 innings.

                      You’re embarrassing yourself by cloaking your ignorance with several layers of pretension and hoping that no one notices.

                      It’s cool, though. My 14 year old brother does that all the time.

                    • OhioYanks

                      You know that 2012 was last season, right?

                      You nitpick at every sample I throw out there, yet offer no evidence of your own.

                      Do you have any actual argument for why Hughes is better, or did your big brother just tell you he is?

                    • Cool Lester Smooth

                      I know that 2012 was last season. I also know that Hughes had a 3.59 K/BB in 2012, good for 21 in the league behind Clayton Kershaw and above Adam Wainwright and David Price. Nova was behind Derek Holland and just above Gio Gonzalez and Wei-Yin Chen with a 2.73 K/BB.

                      My argument is actually the key part of the Jered Weaver/Joe Blanton analogy that you didn’t seem to understand.

                      Phil Hughes’ problem is that he gives up a shitload of home runs because he can’t get grounders, but he does a decent job of limiting other extra base hits, allowing the same amount of doubles and triples as Jordan Zimmermann in roughly as many innings.

                      Ivan Nova’s problem is that he gives up a lot of hard contact in general. This is manifested in the fact that lead the AL in doubles and triples allowed last year, despite a strong ground ball rate that is not conducive to allowing extra base hits.

                      I had a little fun with Excel, and Nova’s XBH/9 of 4.6 last year led all qualified starters by .65 (Bruce Chen allowed 3.95) when you include home runs; Hughes and IPK are essentially tied for 7th place with 3.76 XBH/9.

                      When you exclude home runs, Nova’s “lead” is reduced to .31, now over Rick Porcello, and Hughes actually tumbles all the way down to 23rd, a touch better than Wainwright and Hiroki Kuroda, and a little worse than Zimmermann and Joe Saunders.

                      Basically, Phil Hughes needs to give up significantly fewer HR in order to become a good SP. Nova has to do that, but he also has to give up a bunch fewer extra base hits in general, especially considering that his status as a GB pitcher already inflates his BABIP compared to Hughes’.

                      Hughes’ problem can be corrected by moving parks much more easily than Nova’s can, because it doesn’t matter where the fences are when a guy hits a screamer into the gap.

                    • OhioYanks

                      Are you fucking kidding me? You are picking samples that fit your argument. You chose to work with one of Hughes’ best seasons, and Nova’s worst.

                      Again, I have given you all sorts of relevant length samples. You give me one season…

                    • Cool Lester Smooth

                      It is Nova’s longest season in the big leagues, and the only one in which he’s had comparable peripherals to Hughes’ for any sort of actual sample.

    • OhioYanks

      Doubt Hughes gets bumped.

  • Dalek Jeter

    If he winds up in the bullpen at any point this season I will completely lose my shit.

    Now with that said, outside of Kuroda the rotation is a series of question marks (of varying sizes) Sabathia has been good, but it always seems like hes somewhere between good and great, which is great for a number 2 or 3 starter…but he’s supposed to be our ace. Especially in 2014 and beyond, when it figures that Kuroda won’t be here anymore. Hughes, who is most likely gone next year, has been Jekyll and Hyde. Andy, even though I love him, has walked the razors edge between good and bad since coming off the DL. Nova was pretty terrible before he got hurt, regardless of how great he was yesterday. And finally Phelps looks like he’s getting figured out by the league a bit and is now hurt on top of that.

    With all that said I feel like it would benefit the Yankees, especially for next year and beyond, to bring Pineda up to the majors after they recoup that year of service time to see what he’s got. If he can be a good major leaguer that’s one less thing that has to be on the off season’s agenda. The only guys who have started for the Yankees who will be under contract next season are CC, Phelps, Nova, and Warren. So the Yankees, if Pineda isn’t effective, should be looking to bring Kuroda back and then absolutely look for at least one more legitimate starter. If Pineda can be even 80% of what he was in Seattle in 2011 then that agenda can be altered to just bringing back Kuroda and maybe searching the scrap heap for some depth.

    • http://www.twitter.com/matt__harris Matt :: Sec110

      As far as bringing Kuroda back, I think you try and do it either way, this year shows you can never have too much pitching. Andy seems to be done, I can’t see him coming back. Hughes is out as well.

      So that would leave:

      CC
      Kuroda
      Pineda
      Nova
      Phelps
      Warren

      as your starters.

      • Dalek Jeter

        I’m saying I think that could be a competitive rotation if Pineda can be good, but I’d rather the team see him against major league hitting before deciding “we have Pineda we only have to focus on bringing Kuroda back for our rotation needs.”

        • Now Batting

          I agree with everything you’ve said. At some point this season the Yankees need to get a decent look at Pineda against MLB hitters to plan their offseason. The question is who do you push out?

          Do you swap him with the Phelps/Nova rotation spot? I think they’ve been decent enough not to be replaced, plus they need the starts for next year. Kuroda and CC aren’t going anywhere. Pettitte has been struggling but with his pedigree he isn’t going anywhere. That leaves Hughes. A common suggestion is to move him to the bullpen. The 7th/8th/9th are locked down though so he’d be a marginal addition at best.

          Personally I’d like to see a 6 man rotation for a bit and if Pineda is effective trade Hughes/Joba for a bat. You won’t get a superstar but with this anemic offense I think you could acquire an upgrade somewhere.

          • Cool Lester Smooth

            Send Phelps or Nova to the pen. Each is worse than Hughes and, anyway, it’s more important to preserve Hughes’ value going into the offseason than that of Phelps or Nova to ensure that he’ll reject the QO and net the Yanks an extra pick next year.

            Of course, I’m hoping that we package Nova in a trade for Chooch and Young and this is all moot.

      • BeanTooth

        You can probably put Ramirez in there over Warren. He’s a better prospect at this point.

    • Need Pitching & Hitting (but mostly hitting)

      The only guys who have started for the Yankees who will be under contract next season are CC, Phelps, Nova, and Warren

      You forgot Vidal!!!

    • Bo Knows

      Cashman shut that line of thinking down a few days ago. He said Pineda is a starter and will be starter

      • OhioYanks

        Report I saw was that they thought of him as a starter, but would have to see where he fits in going forward.

        • Bo Knows

          Different report, Cash was asked about it a few days later

          “I don’t see using him out of the pen,” he said. “Somebody asked Joe, and he didn’t say no. I’ll say no. He’s a starter and that’s how we’ll use him and that’s it.’

    • OhioYanks

      Hooray for minuscule samples! Hughes nor Joba became an ace, so clearly this means every starter moved to the pen will fail!

      Coming off shoulder surgery there’s a decent chance Pineda will be better next season than this season.

      • Dalek Jeter

        Neftali Feliz, Alexi Ogando, this isn’t a limited thing.

        • OhioYanks

          Do you follow MLB baseball? Seriously. If those are the only four SP-RP swing guys you can come up with, I have to conclude you don’t actually follow the game.

          You just doubled your sample size to… 4. Yes, that’s really limited.

          And Feliz? Guy had TJS. Is your argument really that TJS only happens to guys moved from the pen to the rotation?

          I’ll see your list and raise it thirty fold. There are dozens and dozens of counter examples to 3 top prospects who didn’t work out as expected early and a converted OF who has some arm problems: Pedro Martinez, Curt Shilling, Roy Halladay, David Wells, David Price, Kenny Rogers, Nolan Ryan, Adam Wainwright, Bret Saberhagen, Chuck Finley, David Cone, Johan Santana, Mark Buehrle, Chris Sale, Derek Holland, Masterson, Samardzija, Jorge de la Rosa, Dan Haren, Chris Carpenter, Zack Greinke, Derek Lowe…

          On that list are guys who spent multiple seasons exclusively as RPs and guys who just spent a stretch as a RP. There is a ton of success at SP following tours in the BP on that list. Some sustained, HOF level success and some guys who are just doing pretty well this season. I really challenge you to look through that list and tell me that there’s a trend of RP-SP switches damaging guys arms or careers.

          • Robinson Tilapia

            You clearly have knowledge but, Jesus, can you stop trying to pick an argument with every commenter on here?

            • Cool Lester Smooth

              Well, I love arguing so I don’t mind.

              • Robinson Tilapia

                Ha! He’s all yours, then.

                I’ll rarely get into something on here that gets to the point where you can no longer properly nest comments.

                This is what we had Ted for.

                • Steve

                  Are we sure that this isn’t Ted? The several paragraph replies, comments like “Do you even follow MLB baseball?” I’m pretty sure Ted is back

                  • Robinson Tilapia

                    I think there’s enough stylistic differences. Besides, I actually don’t think Ted would come back as anything else but Ted. Just my hunch.

                    • Cool Lester Smooth

                      Maybe it’s his son! Returned to avenge the family name!

                      Has Ted commented once since Mike told him to go fuck himself?

                    • I’m not the droids you’re looking for…

                      I’ve thought OhioYanks was Ted since he first surfaced. Too lazy to search but I posted the notion a few times. Not here to say FIRST just saying that someone as ‘bright’ as Ted could, I believe, go out of their way to tweak their style – but not substance – enough to throw off the hounds.

    • FEED.ME.MORE!

      CC
      Free Agent (Kuroda/Hughes/Someone from outside the organization)
      Pineda
      Nova
      Phelps
      Warren
      Ramirez
      Nuno
      Man Ban (in the second half if needed)

  • viridiana

    Shouldn’t this push FA out to 2018, giving Yanks four more years after this one? He only pitched 1 yr for Seattle, right? He gets credit for 2012 despite never pitching. But he doesn’t get credit for this year. if he stays down a bit longer. Should leave 4 yrs, I would think. Or maybe I’m missing something.

    • Need Pitching & Hitting (but mostly hitting)

      4 years would make him a free agent after the 2017 season.

    • FEED.ME.MORE!

      2011
      2012 doesn’t count because he missed the whole year
      2013
      2014
      2015
      2016
      2017
      Free Agency

      • OhioYanks

        2012 counts because he missed the whole year on the MLB DL. So he was picking up MLB service time. 2013 would “not count” if he’s optioned down to AAA for a few weeks because he would not be picking up MLB service time.

        • FEED.ME.MORE!

          You are right. My apologies.

        • I’m not the droids you’re looking for…

          Hi Ted.

  • Need Pitching & Hitting (but mostly hitting)

    So if my counting is correct, Pineda could be called up July 28 at the earliest to get the extra year of team control.
    That would be the 10th game after the AS break, so if they lined up whoever he might replace as the 5th starter after the break, Pineda could conceivably get into the rotation by then. I really wouldn’t be surprised if he stays down longer than that, though.