Jul
25

Soriano would be a good start, but Yankees need more help before trade deadline

By
Those uniforms are spectacular. (Otto Greule Jr/Getty)

Those uniforms are spectacular. (Otto Greule Jr/Getty)

Depending on who you ask, the Yankees may or may not be close to acquiring Alfonso Soriano from the Cubs for a mid-level prospect. New York desperately needs right-handed power — Joel Sherman laid out the team’s righty hitting futility pretty well yesterday — so much so that Soriano’s sub-.300 OBP is hardly a dealbreaker. He’s actually out-homered the Yankees this month (8-7), just to give you an idea of how badly they need to add pop to the lineup.

A small-ish move for Soriano would be a good first step prior to the trade deadline, but the Yankees can’t stop there. Their offensive needs are far from answered, especially on the left side of the infield. Eduardo Nunez has been serviceable since coming off the DL (hitting an empty .288), but third base remains a complete black hole, especially since Alex Rodriguez may never return to due injury and/or suspension. Lyle Overbay needs a platoon partner, the catchers still aren’t hitting, and DH has been a disaster.

Soriano would fill that DH need, either outright or as part of a rotation. I’m guessing the latter given Joe Girardi‘s tendencies over the last few seasons. The Yankees were said to have interest in Carlos Ruiz, and maybe will Phillies will seriously consider selling now that they’ve lost four straight and their little hot streak is over. That said, I get the sense the Bombers consider catching help a low priority and are perfectly happy with Chris Stewart and Austin Romine. The duo is hitting .208/.273/.268 since Frankie Cervelli hit the DL.

The hot corner might be the only position other than DH were the Yankees can add a legitimate upgrade between now and next week’s trade deadline. A righty bat to complement Overbay is important, but not imperative. The club has checked in on both Michael Young and Chase Headley, and I’m sure the Brewers would give Aramis Ramirez away at this point. His power has slipped (.144 ISO), he’s dealing with nagging knee problems (two DL stints and more than a month’s worth of games missed), and he’s owed $20M next year ($16M salary plus $4M buyout of 2015 option). There’s a lot to not like with Ramirez.

The only other realistically available third basemen right now are Young (107 wRC+), the switch-hitting Alberto Callaspo (powerless 90 wRC+), the Cubs platoon of Luis Valbuena (108 wRC+ vs. RHP) and Cody Ransom (156 wRC+ vs. LHP), Placido Polanco (71 wRC+), and maybe Mark Reynolds (93 wRC+). Young is clearly the best of the bunch even though he plays defense like this. He won’t hit for much power, but he can actually get on base (.343 OBP) and hit lefties (119 wRC+). The Yankees have gotten so little out of their third baseman that even a decent player like Young would be a huge upgrade.

Here’s the thing though: the Yankees actually have to go out and get someone now. The season is 101 games old and the trade deadline is six days away, plus they’re falling further and further out of the race, almost by the day. A three-game deficit in the wildcard race is definitely surmountable, but they need help and very soon. Three of their four biggest competitors — Red Sox (Matt Thornton), Orioles (Scott Feldman and Francisco Rodriguez), and Rangers (Matt Garza) — have all gone out and improved their teams already. The fourth team (the Rays) has a history of deadline inactivity but has simply stopped losing. They’re 19-3 in their last 22 games.

The Yankees tried the whole patience thing, but waiting for the injured guys to return has failed spectacularly. That has left the team with an uphill battle and multiple needs to address if they want to make a serious run at contention. That they’ve been able to stay in the hunt this long with the lineup they’ve been running out there is a minor miracle. Soriano will definitely help some (assuming the trade goes down), but the Yankees need much more than that if they want to give themselves a real shot at the postseason. There’s less than one week left until the trade deadline, and the club’s actions during that time will more or less determine if they have legitimate shot at the playoffs.

Categories : Trade Deadline
  • blake

    It’s a tough reality but they really don’t need to be buying anything….they need to sell and think about next year. They won’t though….Soriano is an upgrade somewhere either at DH or an outfield spot but as Mike says it’s not enough. They need way more than just a marginal upgrade at 1 spot to not only make the playoffs but to have a legit shot at winning it all. It’s time to look in the mirror and be honest and act accordingly.

    • kenthadley

      I agree with blake. Let’s work toward a real championship contender next year rather than an old broken down eliminated in the first round team in 2013. But Hal needs to boost TV ratings, so we’ll probably send some young talent off for some band-aids.

      • emac2

        Agreed.

        I think moves should be made but the first goal should be to get better next year. Enough with old replacement level players.

        • kenthadley

          I think most Yankee fans here would agree that there’s enough equity in the bank with this team that we don’t have to mortgage any of the future just to squeeze in. With all the injuries and age this year, expectations were low to begin with. Let’s retool, like the sox did last year, and with the better positioning be really much better and younger in 14-15. Let the Seattles of the world, who don’t taste playoffs often, send their talent to us for a change.

          • Poconos Adam

            I like that “equity” comment.

            Agree — I’d rather be better next year.

      • tmoney

        Im sure the Braves would be all over Kuroda and have some prospects the Yankees would love.

    • Preston

      If Soriano really only costs a relief prospect (Chase Whitley rumored) and is relatively inexpensive, and we have him next year for zero cap hit (rumored). This is a move that helps us down the stretch and upgrades the team next year while helping the cap.

      • blake

        true but don’t we already have one of those or were supposed to? (Vern). Soriano will make them better sure….but marginally so. I guess my point is that I don’t think they should be wasted time with stuff like this….they should be focused on trying to turn expiring assets they have into future pieces so they can actually get good again quicker…..

        • Deathstroke Heathcott

          We’re 3.5 games out of a playoff spot in Mariano’s last year and we can at least expect Jeter and Granderson (and Nix and Cervelli) back at some point in the season. Even if we tried to sell, there’s not a whole lot of sellable pieces on our team as is, I’d prefer to just give it a go as long as we don’t hurt our future chances.

          • The Lime

            I know a lot of people agree with you because they’ve written similar things; my take is that by not selling, the Yankees are making an asymmetric bet where the returns are characterized by greater losses than gains

            The quality of the current team:
            3.5 games – agreed, not very far to go, however, I’m part of the group that thinks the team has over performed its true talent level, so three and a half games doesn’t bring me any comfort because it looks like luck. Run differential doesn’t tell the whole story, but when you look at the individual pieces, the story doesn’t get any prettier.

            Narratives:
            Mariano’s last year – Mariano is my favorite Yankee and I’m going to miss him, but the organization’s mission shouldn’t be to please Mariano, so I feel like this is just a wash.

            Reinforcements within the organization:
            Jeter and Granderson – who knows when they’ll come back? Who knows how useful they’ll be? Who knows if Jeter will stay healthy? I agree that they’ll both be upgrades, but I wonder if they’ll get back early enough and be effective enough to turn the needle enough to make it to October. I think we’re looking at reinforcements that will be marginal upgrades, not true impact upgrades, so I’m still skeptical.

            The opportunity cost:
            Sellable pieces – I’m more bullish here. I mostly agree with the post that was put up a few days ago as far as trade value goes…and I’m fine just limiting the sale to soon-to-be FAs, not a fire sale, as long as the returns exceed the value of a supplemental pick in the case of QO candidates. Kuroda might be willing to return to LAD because they’re contending, Cano fits in on any team, and Hughes makes sense for contenders in pitching friendly parks. I’m all for selling relievers as well. If Cashman wants to resign Cano, I doubt that Cano would ignore him and I assume that Jay-Z will want to take his first client into FA.

            As long as we don’t hurt our future chances – this is why the opportunity cost matters. We are paying the opportunity cost of trade returns by not selling; this isn’t implicit, it is very real. By paying this cost to swing for the fences and hope that we make the playoffs, we are hurting our future chances. For me, that’s the bottom line.

            • Deathstroke Heathcott

              I just don’t believe the Yankees have a ton of pieces that are attractive to be selling outside of Kuroda and Cano. If I’m wrong then it probably changes my opinion but I’m not sure I am. The Yankees expect to bring Cano back though, despite everyone’s consternation at what his next contract could be. Cano would bring back a lot but I really doubt that the Yankees trade him. Kuroda could bring back a Garza-esque package but with his age, I’d say he brings back a little less. If that’s all we’re gonna get, I’d rather just make moves like the Soriano trade and see if Grandy and Jeter can make a difference second half.

        • Preston

          The difference is Soriano hasn’t been one of the worst players in the league the last few years, he’s actually been, you know, good.

    • trr

      As a fan, my natural instinct is to say “Fight!” “Never Give Up!” and so on…But sooner or later reality rears its unwelcome head.
      It’s getting harder and harder to envision this team as a playoff team. Soriano won’t make much of a difference. It’s not that we’re plummeting out of the race, we’re just…slowly fading away.
      We’re probably going to finish this 10 game stretch at 4-6, maybe 5-5, which means we’re slowly losing ground. The offense is putrid. The FO put too much faith in getting back injured players to make up the difference. It’s starting to look more and more like 2014 (2015?) should be our target. But this Completely Corporate Team is not guided by baseball oriented goals or even winning (except as the means to an end – to wit: making more $$$).
      That’s what is really holding us back now, and will continue to do so under the current structure. I’m not saying it’s impossible to win this way, just damn hard.

    • OldYanksFan

      I agree in theory, except the year to build for is 2015, not 2014.
      In 2014 we have Wells, Ichiro and a 40 yr old Jeter already signed.

      Andy, Mo and Grandy are gone, and possibly Hiroki also. And we have the $189m cap to deal with. Few of our kids will be ready for the Bigs. The only good news is it appears we will have ARod’s money to play with.

      At best, next year will be similar to this year…. straining to even make the 2nd wildcard, and still be a long shot to do that.

      Someone needs to show me a decent 2014 roster.

    • Dan

      They’re much closer than you think if they make this trade. Acting under the assumption that Jeter and Granderson will both come back, which is looking better and better. They really only will need a RH corner infield bat and a back up catcher to be able to run out an average lineup every night. The corner infielder doesn’t even need to be great, he just need to be able to put up a 100 OPS+ against lefties. They probably wouldn’t even need to give up any top 30 prospects to make those trades.

      With their pitching, an average lineup will take them to the playoffs. Once they get there, it’s all about pitching and timely hitting–and with this group, it’s conceivable that they win the world series.

      Look at it position by position:

      C: Stewart/new back up (hopefully Ruiz)

      1B: Overbay/Right handed corner infielder (hopefully Michael Young?).

      2B: Cano

      SS: Jeter/Nunez

      3B: Right-Handed Corner infielder/Nunez–seriously they need to try Nunez out at different infield positions, it’s practically a wasted roster sport.

      LF: Granderson/Wells/Soriano

      CF: Gardner

      RF: Ichiro/Wells

      DH: Whatever OFer isn’t in the field/Jeter

      This group could be the offense of a team that goes far in the playoffs. The key is, they could now dump Hafner and Adams, and Wells would be their 5th outfielder. We’re talking about a major improvement based on 3 minor trades.

      And then look at the pitchers:

      SPs:

      Kuroda
      CC
      Nova
      Pettitte
      Hughes

      [This is a strong rotation, and if CC and Pettitte improve a little bit, it could be really dominant]

      RPs:
      Logan
      Kelley
      Claiborne
      Joba
      Robertson
      Warren
      Mo

      [Another lefty would be great, but it isn't necessary]

      The point is, they’re closer than you think to being successful this season. And they can do it without mortgaging their future at all. So they should go for it.

  • dalelama

    When is that pussy Tex coming back?

    • blake

      2014

    • Slugger27

      reports say next year, but who knows.

    • Former ACE MannyGeee

      THAT’S how you get ants!

  • Tom T

    Tons of holes, losing ground daily, several games back of multiple teams that are better.

    Sounds like you’re describing a seller to me.

    • Dr. TJ Eckelberg

      I was reading about the Mariners today, and I scoffed at the fact that they weren’t selling yet. I thought of all the reasons, and realized that the Yankees were in the very same boat.

      If you described the current Yankees without mentioning the name, you would say that the prudent thing is to sell what you can for a good return. I know they won’t, but this is the kind of year (sellers market, falling behind a tough division, looming payroll cuts) that you have to make a tough management decision.

      • BFDeal

        3 games back v. 8 games back is not quite being in the same boat.

        • Deathstroke Heathcott

          Shhhh, no one likes your facts.

    • Jay
  • Tom T

    It’s so arrogant to think in new CBA world (and apparently the Yanks now have a budget) that the rules of building a winner in baseball don’t apply to the Yankees and they don’t need to take advantage of obvious opportunities to rebuild.

    Sorry for double dipping, apparently I wasn’t done being bitter about not selling.

  • http://www.twitter.com/_swarlesbarkley Mark Teixiera – Ghostbuster (formerly Drew)
  • http://www.twitter.com/_swarlesbarkley Mark Teixiera – Ghostbuster (formerly Drew)
  • gargoyle

    Headley is the only appealing option of the people mentioned but I think he’s FA after this year? They need to look at more than just short term band aids.

    • Gonzo

      He’s a FA after next year.

  • http://www.twitter.com/_swarlesbarkley Mark Teixiera – Ghostbuster (formerly Drew)
  • LarryM Fl

    Its simple become sellers. Yes, this means Robbie C., Granderson, Hughes and Joba. We should do very well with Robbie C.’s trade.

  • mitch

    He’d cost more than the rentals, but i wonder if SF would consider moving Sandoval?

  • steves

    The Yanks failure to make a real move doesn’t seem to me to be due to lack of effort. I think it has more to do that Yanks have nothing that any other team really likes. New possibility perhaps is Hughes to Braves to replace Hudson but not sure what Yanks would be able to get in return.

    • blake

      I’d ask for Jose Peraza…..19 year old SS with lots of potential. He’s blocked in the Braves org unless he changes positions and obviously the Yanks need all the SS prospects they can get.

    • emac2

      I thought everyone liked money?

    • nyyankfan_7

      The Braves have Beachy sitting in the minors right now and were going to have too many men for the rotation when he came up – this just fixed that issue and so they probably don’t want Hughes.

    • Robinson Tilapia

      Too many teams seem to think they’re close to contending, including the Yanks. This is what two WC spots does at the deadline. Some, possibly the Yankees, are probably somewhat delusional there but, hey, if you have a fighting chance on paper, YCPB.

      It may be a matter of who’s got the nerves to steel to hit, or not hit, the panic button on 7/31 as to who buys and/or sells.

      Interesting times.

  • Yankee Dandy

    I agree – it’s time to sell. Even IF they make an upgrade or two, they probably won’t make the playoffs. And if they do somehow sneak in, does anyone really think they can win the WS? Every team has down years, injuries, etc….are we as Yankee fans so entitled that we think it should not apply to us? With the team as constructed right now, I would gladly take a down year or two if it meant strengthening our team long-term. Throwing prospects at Sori, Young, or whoever else might be available does not accomplish that.

    This team is losing, and losing badly. They are not some young, scrappy team that’s losing but fighting hard. No loveable losers here. This is a hard team to watch…almost painful. With all the age on this roster, it’s time to blow this thing up. I’m too young to remember the fall of the dynasty from 1966-1975, but from what I’ve read, there are so many parallels.

    All that being said, I have to give Girardi his just due. Since he’s taken over, I’ve always thought he was a “good not great” manager. This year though, I think he’s done his best job….

  • Slugger27

    what about pence?

    • Oy

      Who knows if Giants want to sell? Even if they do, Pence would be the best hitter on the market. I’d rather buy low on Sandoval.

  • That’s not cool

    I know it’s very unlikely, but any chance the rangers asked the Cuba not to trade Soriano to the Yankees until the series is over as a part of the Garza trade? Seems like it shouldn’t take this long with the team really needing his help.

    • Former ACE MannyGeee

      Feel like that would be tampering, no? More likely scenario is that Theo has leaked out the potential trade to see if anyone else gets intrigued in order to try and create a bidding war.

    • JohnnyC

      The Cuba can’t trade Soriano to the Yankees. He’d have to defect first and then be signed as a free agent.

  • Matt

    SELL SELL SELL….. an easy trade, is Kuroda to LAD for one of their top prospects. The Dodgers wld do it in a second

  • mac1

    I wonder how many people here have actually lived thru a rebuild?

    A 3 billion franchise, 3 games out of a playoff berth doesn’t sell.

    What the Yanks need to do is add Soriano + this year and next year sign Choo, McCaan, + and build a real bench.

    It s unfathomable that any people who advocate selling don’t realize YS3 will be a ghost town the rest of the year and the foreseeable future if the Yanks sell and stick to a cap at the expense of competing now.

    I wonder how FOX feels about their investment in the YES network right now?

    The attitude of those who think they can unload Cano, + and rebuild a contender by 2015 is laughable.

    Its simple, the Yanks need to spend what it takes to compete until they actually develop enough talent to allow them reduce payroll to make the Steinbrenners even richer.

    • Matt

      Well something has got to give, because if they are on a “strict budget”, then they need to get rid of some contracts before they sign Cano, Choo, and McCann

      • mac1

        That is exactly my point, the budget is self imposed.

        I’d love a younger team, but you can’t hit the reset button and hope you get a young core thru trades.

        Other GM’s aren’t dumb and the chance the guys you get will washout or take years longer to develop are very high.

        We are not the Twins. This is an incredibly profitable franchise in the biggest city in th world.

        • Mr. Roth

          When did the Yankees relocate to Tokyo?

        • Shittyshittybangbang

          Teams aren’t dumb ?! How about desperate, i.e., The Dodgers. And with expanded play-off’s, they’re out there. It’s simple, whom do The Yankees have that are tradeable assets ? Cano, Hughes, Kuroda, Joba, and to a lesser extent Granderson. If you don’t trade these guys, you might lose them for very little any way. If you’re Cano’s management team, what would you advise ? Hit the open market and get top dollar ! The Yankees have made it publicly known that they are no longer going to be “free-spenders”. The Yankees are warning you, the fan, money will no longer be used indiscretionally to plug gaping holes in the roster. They are warning you !!!

      • kenthadley

        Mac, I’ve been thru painful rebuilds from the late 60’s. Nobody would sign up for that. But assuming we’d still spend near 200 or so, rebuilding is accelerated in the current environment…see the Red Sox. One crappy sell-year could put us on track for several real contender years.

        • mac1

          Or the Yanks could get another Ed Yarnell and be even worse off then they are now. I think its safe to say this regime is not good at developing or trading for young talent.

          What they do well is sign FA and outspend their mistakes.

          To give up this year when you are three games back is pathetic.

          • kenthadley

            well the whole premise is based on the “hope” that Cashman won’t Yarnell us again…maybe that’s too much to ask, but it works the other way also if you don’t believe in him, and he gives up too much young talent for one year fixes…I’d rather see a real contender for a WS next year against a Jeterless, Texless, catcherless, thirdbasemanless, ace starterless, wild card team this year.

            • Robinson Tilapia

              “I’d rather see a real contender for a WS next year against a Jeterless, Texless, catcherless, thirdbasemanless, ace starterless, wild card team this year.”

              And you think a rebuild would get you a real WS contender next year. Here we go again.

              • kenthadley

                Are the Red Sox a WS contender this year? They were in worse shape last year. At this point, they certainly are in better position to get to WS than the Yanks are now. If Buckholz returns, they certainly can do damage in the playoffs. I think a lot of the problems from this year can be rectified by next year if the goal is to get the most talent on the field by next year. Not sure what “here we go again” means.

                • Jim Is A (Bored) Peckerhead

                  If you’re goal is to find a team that suddenly becomes rich and is willing to spend even more money than the Yankees to take on overpaid, under-performing name guys, then yeah. We should go that route.

                  Who knows, maybe Loria will sell the Marlins to Donald Trump.

                • Robinson Tilapia

                  150 years of experience as a fan should have taught you that what the Sox did is completely different from rebuilding.

                  They were handed a gift from God in the form of a trade no other team will be handed at this point in time, ridding themselves of three huge contracts. They then reinvested that money in other, honestly, high-risk free agents that are paying off for them while keeping their core intact.

                  If that was a rebuild, the likes of which people seem to be advocating on here, these guys would have been on the market as well:

                  Lester
                  Buchholz
                  Pedroia
                  Ellsbury

                  Would you have come on here saying giving Shane Victorino that type of deal was a good idea? Would you have counted on John Lackey actually being some sort of True Blood-like shapeshifter?

                  They re-tooled successfully, mostly through a whole lot of good luck. Good for them, and I mean that. Other than Ratboy and Shapeshifter, I really can’t get that worked up over them anymore.

                  If you think the Yankees should do some re-tooling, while trying to keep some sort of core intact, then say so. Don’t call that “rebuilding,” though.

                  BTW, Clay Buchholz paid a visit to Dr. Andrews already, Lester continues to show he threw a shitload of innings early in his career, WMB and Lavarnway aren’t exactly stepping up as the second coming, and they’re now counting on the next batch to be the real stars. Let’s see how long the pixie dust lasts.

              • Jim Is A (Bored) Peckerhead

                If he’s going to harp on being old so often, you’d think he’d at least use the lessons he’s learned.

                • Robinson Tilapia

                  Please allow Senator McCain to have the floor.

                  • kenthadley

                    This isn’t personal, it’s just sports discussion…the thread started with a reference to “living through a rebuild”. If the experience intimidates you, I apologize for remembering that far back….I’ll try to keep my references only back to 1995 from now on to level the playing field. Other than that, I’ve enjoyed your comments, Mr. Woltz.

                    • Robinson Tilapia

                      You can go further back. I can hang just fine with you. I’ve read my history books.

            • mac1

              There is not too much talent to give up in the Yanks system, that is the real problem.

              Getting Sori plus another guy or two like Schierholtz shouldn’t cost the Yanks the few top guys they have.

              You get Grandy an Jeter back and hopefully you make a run – or at the very least make these games watchable.

              You can’t rebuild this team for 2014 by trading now and cutting the payroll. There are too many holes already, that is why you need to shore up this team now and unfortunately add pr next year, until you have legitimate alternatives in the minors.

            • Former ACE MannyGeee

              If you think, REALLY REALLY think, that a rebuild this season gets you into the World Series next season,you have a warped version of reality.

              I defy you to find me a team in the past decade that has gone to the World Series after a rebuild the year prior.

              • mac1

                No, not a rebuild, adding a few productive offensive players gives you a chance to make the playoffs.

      • Deathstroke Heathcott

        Not so sure the budget is as strict as some people are assuming. It might be more of a, if we can compete at 189, we’ll try our hardest to do it but if it doesn’t look like we can, the Yanks will ditch the budget. But no one really knows.

    • emac2

      Is 300 million enough or are you saying whatever it takes?

      What agency do you work for?

      • mac1

        What is enough to continue to fill the ball park and return a healthy income is whatever it takes to continue to be one of the best teams in the game.

        I love the rebuild proponents who act like they can reduce payroll and develop a better, younger team within a few years. It most likely would take a decade plus and they would still have to have one o the biggest payrolls in the game to compete in the AL East.

        • nyyankfan_7

          Thank you – I’m so sick of this idea that if they sell everyone this year we will magically be great next year all because “look what Boston did”. We can’t do what Boston did. Sell every possible player you want and we still have ARod, CC, Jeter, Tex, Ichiro and other bums on the hook for over $100 million next year. Boston didn’t have that problem. There also isn’t a Dodgers team for the Yankees to magically unload any bad contract onto. Trade all those good players like Cano, Gardner, Robertson and others and you’ve left yourself with even more holes to fill and very little money to do it with. But hey at least we got a boatload of prospects that 80% of which will flame out and never wear pinstripes. But at least we got young guys right?

          Get younger all you want – it doesn’t mean shit. Go ask Royals fans how much fun it is to root for the perennial “young team with loads of talent” – it sucks ass. Instead of screaming to sell you should be screaming to buy and scrap this stupid 189 budget bullshit. The owners aren’t going to make anything cheaper for the fans if they save money on the payroll so why should we not demand they spend whatever it takes to put a good team on the field?

          • Yankeeparrothead

            Selling off to get young prospects fails as often as it succeeds. People forget that when the Yanks started their run int eh 90s the only great prospect they had was Jeter. All the others (Bernie Williams, Posada, Pettite, Rivera) were unheralded guys that were taught how to win by Buck Showalter and later Joe Torre. Robbie Cano was never considered a great prospect either. The Yanks are still in the hunt and if they can add players to help win this year without gutting the farm system (which most experts say is bare anyway)they should go for it and worry about next year then. Some of these injured guys will come back and help and who knows what can happen if they make the playoffs. Let’s also not forget that the core of Boston’s rotations (Lester, Buchholz & Lackey) were key parts of the Red Sox September collapse just two years ago

        • emac2

          You don’t think the yanks could rebuild a good team with a 200 million payroll?

          That’s the joke.

          A rebuild doesn’t mean get rid of everyone good and build a team using only draft choices. The issue is, do you get a bunch of crappy old players you have to replace every year in hopes of being the 5th or 6th best team every year or do you run in cycles where you are the best some years and competitive the rest of the time.

          The team had too many injuries to overcome this year. It would be stupid to borrow against the future for a weak shot at victory this year.

          • nyyankfan_7

            Ok so who are they going to get in free agency next year that is going to make them magically a 15 win better team after trading Cano, Gardner, Robertson, Hughes, Joba, etc?

            Have you seen the free agent pool for next year? It’s worse than this years.

            • mac1

              I like the KC example, I remember all the stuff Glass has been saying for the last 5 years and he has been trying to contend, wish others would understand how difficult it is.

              My “dream” would be to add Sori, Schierholtz and one other guy this year. Resign Cano next, sign Choo and McCaan or next. You should have a good team this year and next and it gives you time to evaluate, develop and possibly trade to improve the farm.

              That shouldn’t cost anywhere near 300 mil.

              • emac2

                How much do you think it would cost to sign Cano, Choo and McCann remembering that there are a bunch of other teams out there?

                How much does KC spend on Payroll? Is the simple fact they both play the same sport really enough to compare their business models?

            • emac2

              I don’t think they will be much better next year one way or the other because of the payroll cap so they have 2 years to build the new core. Free agency is just part of the big money equation too. Carl Crawford and Adrian Gonzales were big money players acquired outside of free agency.

              I also wouldn’t be giving those players away for nothing. Gardner and Robertson would be core players next year and I would need significant pieces if I traded them.

              • mac1

                You have to get past the payroll cap. That is all Hal. As for next year, you try to get better, of course nothing is guaranteed, but if they sell off guys and don’t sign others its pretty much a lock they will be worse, with no real plan other than reducing their payroll.

                • emac2

                  Who says sell of and don’t replace? No one trades a player knowing they are getting less back.

                  I don’t think the only plan should be reducing payroll but I don’t think the only goal should be increasing it either.

      • Former ACE MannyGeee

        Friends, you are looking at a licensed notarizer

        • mac1

          Fantastic comment, thanks for really advancing this discussion.

    • Matt

      ….and yes, the Yankees never have to “re-build”, with the money they have, but at least get some young talent back while they can, to supplement what they can buy in the future. And shed a little payroll at the same time….. I love Choo and McCann also, but they can get rid of some unneeded pieces right now.

      • mac1

        Define “unneeded”. Joba? Hughes?

        First, you prob need them to make a run this year, second what value do they return?

    • Shittyshittybangbang

      Red Sox. Too many holes to fill, not enough “sellers”. The addition of play-off teams has created a sellers market. Too many teams still “in it”. Think about the possibly “available” players; Soriano, Reynolds, Ramirez, etc…., Not exactly a who’s who of “impact” bats. There’s a guy whose hitting barely above “Mendoza”, and pretty much half the teams want this guy, are probably willing to over-pay, and The Padres have deemed this guy “un-touchable”. That, my friends, is a sellers market. It would take a 180 direction change for The Yankees to consider selling (as they’ve always “bought” or stood pat), but it would be the “smart” baseball decision to make. Simple economics- in a sellers market, if you have inventory, you sell. Especially when there’s little to no upside to hold a ” perishable” commodity.

    • I’m One

      It s unfathomable that any people who advocate selling don’t realize YS3 will be a ghost town the rest of the year and the foreseeable future if the Yanks sell and stick to a cap at the expense of competing now.

      Repeated for emphasis. This is all about the money, this year, next year and beyond. Filling the stands (or at least to the extent they’re filled now) is part of that flow of money. The Yankees need to keep a contender (or pretender) on the field. They need to at least look like they can compete. Selling shows they don’t think they can. Therefore, they should buy.

      My concern is that they don’t do anything and just wait on the returning injured players and become true pretenders.

      • Robinson Tilapia

        I think putting asses in seats is a red herring, though. If the franchise truly thought that long-term viability meant shorter-term pain, they need to trust that the die-hards will be there and the rest will come back. Are Yankee fans more fickle than, say, Mets fans?

        How many of us here would continue to go to games if the team was making an honest effort at rebuilding for long-term viability? I certainly would. I’m just one fan, though, and one that, for other reasons, honestly hasn’t been to a game yet this year.

        • I’m One

          We are the exceptions. Sure, many of us from this site would still attend games during a rebuild. Most people are not us. To maximize profits, the Yankees need to contend each year, or at least portray to the fans that is the intent (as they appear to be trying to do this year). Rebuilding will hurt with attendance, TV ratings (and revenue), merchandise sales, etc, leading to some loss of value to the organization.

          I am not convinced this ownership team is seeking long term gains. I still see them as being willing to unload the team at some point, which leads me to believe they will attempt to put what they believe is a competitive team on the field each year to keep the value of the organization high so that an offer they deem appropriate may come along.

          • Robinson Tilapia

            Just between me and you……fuck the rest of them. More food for us. :)

            My son was running around the house going “Yankees! Yankees!” for a whole five minutes this morning, trying to get me to do the “Let’s Go Yankees!” hand clap. The fandom is strong with that one, and he has no clue how bad Vernon Wells is.

            • I’m One

              My grandson, at 8, came back from spending the summer with his dad (my son) decked out in full Yankee garb, jersey, t-shirt, hat. Suprised he wasn’t wearing socks & shorts and underwear as well. All he know is that Mariano is great and he wants to get Jeter’s autograph when we take him to NY for my daughter’s college graduation in May of ’15 (not sure Jeter will be around by then, but he’s still doesn’t quite grasp that). I want him to experience a winning Yankee organization like his dad and aunt did during the ’90s and not go through years of Yankee suckiness like I did during the CBS ownership years.

    • fat jeter

      I get what you are saying 100%. It is a pipe dream to sell and be competitive as the guys we need to sell are not desired and/or won’t get much, and the guys we can sell who net us a return will pretty much cripple us going forward. That said the yankees currently have an 11.3% chance of securing a wild card spot and a 1.5% chance of winning the division. The team also is running with something like 230 million dollar payroll with a desire to get to 189 next year. It seems like they have pretty much boxed themselves in. Trade young talent for a bunch of band-aids that probably won’t push their chances of making the playoffs much higher from where they currently stand, sell and become basement dwellers until whatever young talent you net makes an impact, if ever, or stand pat and wait for everyone to come off the DL. That’s what I call a sticky situation.

    • ChrisS

      I wonder how many people here have actually lived thru a rebuild?

      Yep, 1989-1994. I also lived through the 1980s where an aging team chased after the latest flavors and more or less stayed “in contention” perennially until they had a team of injured former superstars, cast-offs, strays, and no better options. They hit the ball OK, just couldn’t field or pitch.

      • trr

        This team is somewhat analaogous. We’ve become the Yanks of the mid to late 80’s except: we won a Championship in ’09, so yes, we’ve soared higher than that group. But like they, we are seeing the results of overpaying for big names, and believing that when the team hideously ages out, that somehow we’ll just keep throwing money at the problem, until it goes away. This is a tough position to be in. We need to get our hands dirty and start digging out, or the next stop will the 1990-92 Yankees.

        • Robinson Tilapia

          I think we’re our own animal. I don’t think we’re the early 90’s. I don’t think we’re the 80’s. Frankly, I think there are more parallels to those 60’s teams so often brought up on here. Aging, beloved dynasty core the franchise rode into the ground that’s impossible to replace, but with a few new wrinkles.

          I think the 90’s are certainly a possible result of all this if we continue to go down the patchwork veteran toilet, sure, but there are no sure things with any approach.

          I had the displeasure of spending the early 90’s splitting my attention between the lost Yankee years and the early Marlin years. Junior Felix FTW. :)

    • trr

      Me, for one, and I’ve been thru a few…

      Everything’s different now. Not many people would be willing to go to the sterile mauseleum they call a “Baseball Park” and pay those horrendous prices to watch a team that’s thrown in the towel. Much of this debate revolves around how adamant the team will be in sticking to the $189m cap next year. If they’re truly willing to spend, then Mac’s plan has validity. If not….

      I’m no different than most here; I’d love to see the team re-build around a home grown core, a new “Core Four” if you will. That’s certainly easier said than done. In the end, it’s really a combination of home grown talent, judiciously acquired FA’s and yeah, a little bit of luck mining the scrap heap that you build a great team with.

      Savor those championship years Ladies + Gents, they will get increasingly harder to come by…

      • Robinson Tilapia

        “Everything’s different now. Not many people would be willing to go to the sterile mauseleum they call a “Baseball Park” and pay those horrendous prices to watch a team that’s thrown in the towel.”

        I don’t think that’s necessarily true. A lot of us, warts and all, like the new stadium and don’t mind the prices. We pay through the ass for everything else in NYC already. This isn’t any different.

        They’re not going to sit through the baseball equivalent of a wrestling JTTS like the Yankees were in the 80’s, either. Always a bridesmaid….

        • trr

          I hate the new stadium for what it represents. Of course, the core fan group, real fans like yourself, will continue to go. It’s the more casual fan group that will stay away, like they do with the Mets. But, it’s easy (too easy) to simply sit back and demonize ownership as a band of souless money grabbers. I’m guily of this myself. I do believe they want championships, yes for the money, but also because the nature of athletics is competetition, and the nature of competetition is winning. A team that usually does well, but never gets the big prize can create a whole oeuvre of lowered expectations among the fan base, like the Red Sox used to have. As Yankee fans, we can be like spoiled brats sometimes, with an overly developed sense of entitlement. I can be that way too. But I’ve seen the highs and the lows, plenty of both, and the highs are much more fun. Time for the team to get busy ushering in the Next Era.

          • Robinson Tilapia

            Yeah, but I love that I could get to the 400 level from the bleachers in about ten minutes now, and that I don’t have to smell every bit of your armpit getting out the concourses after the game. :)

            • trr

              LOL, well at least there’s that!

  • Dave

    Why don’t they bring up Randy Ruiz. 12 dingers in AAA. Can’t be any worse than what they have been running out there every day.

    • Former ACE MannyGeee

      This is a move I’d consider. Send Neal down, bring up Ruiz, hope for lightening in a bottle. When the well runs dry you should be looking at Jeter or Granderson back.

      • Robinson Tilapia

        I don’t know…..I haven’t seen the ending to that movie, but I feel like I’ve seen it and don’t really want to find out whether it’d be any different.

        For some reason, I’m now curious as to Adonis Garcia. Maybe it’s just this flu I’m fighting.

        • Former ACE MannyGeee

          I think its different than the scene you’re setting. Its closer to the ‘Shelly Duncan story’ than to the ‘Ichiro Chronicles’… Get him up to try and catch lightening in a bottle (like Shelly did) let him compete to keep his spot, and if he doesn’t, nothing lost.

          We are talking about filling Pronk’s seat with someone that has a pulse, not betting the farm on his success.

          That said, his performance does scream of Jo-Va, and that ended in Japan.

    • trr

      Why not indeed? Worth a shot.

  • Gonzo

    The amount of people that want to sell is weird to me. I’m all for buying and fighting for a playoff spot. They aren’t that far out.

    • Matt

      You realize the Wild Cards play in one game in the “playoffs” right?….. Wow, I remember when it was title or bust….. OK, good plan!

      • mac1

        Matt, hoping that this FO is able to rebuild thru gutting this team is not a better plan.

        Do you really think if you sell you are going to have a better team in 2014 or 15? Planning past that is a pipedream and one few people will pay to see.

        Its simple, add pieces now, build. better team thru FA and trades for 2014 and really reevaluate how you are developing players so in the hope that some day you can develop ML talent

        • emac2

          Gutting this team?

          Would that refer to the middle of the batting order 4/5?

          Or the middle of the rotation?

          You don’t seem to get that the team isn’t very good and it needs to be gutted. PLayers get old and need to be replaced. They get worse and worse every year until you have the courage to replace them with someone younger who needs to prove themselves.

          • mac1

            This team is three out and playing close to it pythag. Its easier to add a few pieces like Sori than gut it thinking you are going to rebuild quickly with no farm and no current everyday player under 30.

            Its simple, they need to have the highest pr in the game until thy start to develop talent. You can trade Cano an all the other pending FA we have and you will not get enough talent to build a better team in the next few years. Other GM’s are not stupid and the game has changed.

            • ChrisS

              … rebuild quickly with no farm and no current everyday player under 30.

              Absolutely. Because most other teams are locking up their younger talent, free agent classes are getting thinner and thinner. So the obvious plan is to depend on FAs and to not get a head start on the rebuild that is definitely coming.

              • mac1

                Sori, Schierholtz, McCaan and Choo make the team very viable for 2014. It doesn’t have to be exactly those guys but it gives you an idea that its not impossible to contend he next few years.

                The Yanks definitely have to fix their player dev, but gutting this team is not the answer. You aren’t going to get enough talent to take th risk that you have a non contending team for years.

                Maybe you and 15 other people wan to believe that most fans will still follow and support the Yanks, I don’t and past history supports that.

                In the end, it comes down to businesss, and the best way for Hal to mke even more money is by supporting this team thru payroll until they develop some talent.

                Maybe in the next year or two the team gets so old and the minors continues to stagnate that the Yanks have to gut and rebuild, if that happens so be it.

                Right now the yanks can add a few relatively low cost improvements and reinvest the 50 mil or so coming off the books in 14 to field a contender.

                Its not time to rebuild yet.

            • emac2

              It’s always easier to trade kids for vets. That’s why the bad Yankee teams were bad.

              They don’t “need” to have the highest payroll in the game.

              The Yankees have a very good farm system that is capable of restocking the team if it is allowed to and if it is supplemented with trades and free agency.

              Why can’t you trade the pending free agents for players just as good? Or sign them after you trade them? or spend their money on someone just as good? You seem to view any move the Yankees make as get rid of something good for half of it’s value.

              • Robinson Tilapia

                “Or sign them after you trade them?”

                This is coming up way too often on here. It’s simply not that easy.

                • Preston

                  Other than Lee going back to Philly I can’t remember this happening. And I don’t think the Phillies or Lee planned it that way. It just happened.

                  • Robinson Tilapia

                    Yup.

                    If you really want to keep a guy, keep them. Baseball is not a Sting song.

                    • Former ACE MannyGeee

                      What does a teacher sleeping with his student have to do with the trading an re-signing of Cano?

                    • Robinson Tilapia

                      *golf clap*

              • mac1

                I agree w/ the first two sentences. The yanks system isn’t very good though. Most likely there won’t be one pos player ready to play in the ML next year. Williams, Sanchez, Austin all have major ?.

                In fact I realized that Williams recent hot streak not withstanding, he’s the same age as Melky C was when hit hit 280/360 for the Yanks.

                If the Yanks can get a useful, younger MLplayer for anyone in the current system not named Sanchez, I don’t see how they can say no.

                • Robinson Tilapia

                  Every young player has question marks, and even the ones we think don’t fail. Jurickson Profar could fall flat on his face.

      • Gonzo

        I do realize that. So it’s division title every year or else sell? Excellent plan!

        • mac1

          That was a an excellent plan for the last 20 years, deviating from it now is just dumb.

          Why do you think the Yanks are the most valuable franchise in the sport? Yes being in NY is big factor, but they rked in the most money b/c they win.

          You may be willing to watch an ever changing roster of lesser ralent in the hopes that the Yanks develop the next core, most won’t and most likely you’ll lose interest too.

          The “fans” who filled the Yanks coffers the last decade plus won’t do so and ultimately thats the name of this game – Hal will lose more than he saves if he doesn’t take off the green eyeshade.

        • nyyankfan_7

          No but you can’t make the world series without first making the playoffs. So what if they “only” make the 1 game playoff instead of winning the division?- they’ll have a better chance of making the world series than if they sell the whole team and play for the 2018 season like most of the people on here think they should do.

          • Gonzo

            Exactly!

      • Robinson Tilapia

        But you’re still seeing it. We’re hearing reports of the Mariners and Phillies holding on to players. I find that ridiculous, but teams are going to cling on to any hope they’ve got.

        Sometimes, they think differently than we do.

    • Oy

      They have a 50-51 Pythagorean record in the division that has 3 better teams.

      There’s nobody available who will have a significant impact. How many wins will Soriano and Morneau create? 1.5?

      • mac1

        Hopefully Morneau is a smokescreen or a guess by the MSM.

      • Gonzo

        I think you just hit the nail on the head why I think they should buy.

      • Preston

        Pythagorean record says we haven’t been very good, but luckily we’ve over-performed at 53-48. The Yankees should be pretending that help is on the way, A-Rod, Jeter, Granderson, and Soriano would be a huge upgrade, Morneau too. And eating some money from both those guys this year would mean we wouldn’t have to give up anything more than a throw in reliever prospect.

      • Jim Is A (Bored) Peckerhead

        Wins are in the bag. Pythag is a limited tool and should be used as such.

        The team moving forward will be different than the 50-51 pythag record from the first 101 games.

  • Bill

    If healthy buy low on Aramis Ramirez. Or give the Brewers a better prospect and ask them to foot some of the bill.

    Michael Young also makes sense if the Phillies will let him go. He can not only play third but also go to first against LHP.

    I also think Plouffe could be available. He’d be a great fit if the Twins would part with him.

    • Oy

      A 36 year old 3B with knee problems who’s owed 16 mill for next year? I think he’s definitely on Cash’s radar.

      Can’t wait to see this line up next year:

      1. CF B.Gardner
      2. DH Jeter
      3. 2B Cano
      4. LF A.Soriano
      5. 1B M.Teix
      6. 3B A.Ramirez
      7. SS Nunez
      8. C Stewart
      9. RF Ichiro

  • Matt

    I’m telling you— the LAD wld take Kuroda for Joc Pederson. Do ittttttt. Kid is gonna be good.

    • Robinson Tilapia

      …..said everyone about every other team’s top prospect ever.

      • Matt

        agreed, but $$$ can cover up those mistakes. Kuroda will not be back next year, either way, so…

        • Robinson Tilapia

          I’m not convinced he’s not back next year. I think people want to project their feelings onto our players too much – “Well, why would he want to be here?” Well, maybe he likes being here.

          People often confuse my detachment and playing both sides of the argument with not having an opinion on the matter. A rebuild is certainly a valid way of going about things and I do think that, if you’re going to do it, you look at the pieces that will bring you back the most, and he is certainly one of them…..and that a west coast team would give up a ton for him. Sure.

          I just think these folks who seem to think a true rebuild would automatically lead to a contender within two seasons are out of their goddamn mind.

          As for “empty seats,” which you didn’t mention, it honestly shouldn’t matter. If the franchise thinks a rebuild is able to bring about a better long term strategy, then trust your fanbase to see it through with you. If not, they’ll be back once you’re winning. Hell, even the Marlins packed them back in in 2003. I have pictures of friends in ridiculous ” Yank This!” t-shirts they probably burned afterwards to prove it.

          • LK

            I pretty much agree with your comment, but the “empty seats” aspect of this has to matter. The cliche is that Yankee fans are spoiled, and, at least to some degree, it’s definitely true. This fan base is going to penalize the team more for having rebuilding seasons than the average fanbase would, and that has to be taken into account.

            Now, there’s only so much that can actually affect things from a practical standpoint, as they can’t just magically make the team better because they want to. But I think the FO understands that Yankee fans aren’t going to follow a mediocre team to nearly the same degree, and they’re not going to be patient for a rebuild. We just have to hope that knowledge doesn’t lead them to do anything stupid to try to keep asses in the seats.

        • Preston

          Why do you assume that? He’s pitching extremely well. Has said he loves pitching in New York (he didn’t even really consider multiple other teams offers). He will either return to the Yankees, or go back to Japan for a retirement tour. I think it’s probably 50/50 either way.

  • ropeadope

    Maybe they can pry Miguel Tejada away from the Royals. He won’t turn 40 until next year. Right handed bat (hitting 280 this season), can still handle 3B (not everyday), and knows how to win. Use as a DH/3B.

    • Former ACE MannyGeee

      Yeah, its another band aid, but if the price is right, I guess…

  • Coolerking101

    Not to troll, but the most realistic and level headed option is to call this year a loss and become reasonable sellers. Even if Jeter and ARod manage to return and put up league average numbers (which is no sure thing) AND Granderson returns, are the Yankees one of the top 8 teams in baseball? I just don’t see it. Too many injuries and borderline players.

    IMO – trade Cano at the deadline for the best prospects you can get. Hope to re-sign him after the year is up to a mega 5yr deal. Trade Hughes if you can get something you value more than a supplemental 1st rounder. See if Kuroda will consider waiving his no-trade. If yes, send him packing. Re-arm, re-load and come back strong next year.

    • Bo Knows

      Cano isn’t signing a 5 year deal, very few, like one out of every 30 elite players is ever going to sign a 5 year deal.

      Kuroda isn’t going to waive anything, he’s not that guy, he’ll go down with the ship and has proven that he will do just that.

      Also trading for prospects is buying a lottery ticket, most aren’t going to succeed and they tend to suck initially, Harper/Trout/Machado are the exceptions. Reloading with prospects makes it less likely of the team contending next year not more. Case in point, how long did it take the Pirates/Orioles/Rays to become good? There are teams that have been trying the exact thing for decades and still suck so you can’t just expect them to be good right out the shoot if they go the route and sell everyone. This year will be the new norm, not an aberration.

      • Preston

        While I think the Pedroia deal has little bearing on the Cano deal, I do think it put to rest any of the arguments that have been put out there saying 2b don’t get long term deals. He just signed through 2021, his age 37 season. I think a 6 year deal is the starting point, and there is no way they get it done without doing at least 7, more likely 8.

  • Bo Knows

    There is way too much and way too many holes. when a house has this many cracks and damage, you can’t just put some spackle on it. You have to go with a full remodel.

    I commend this team for being able to stay over .500 and play hard despite the serious issues, but they aren’t reaching the post (i mean the real post season not that 163rd regular season game), unless Robbie plays like the big-headed version of Barry Bonds, Gardner channels Rickey Henderson on crank. I’d much rather this team make minor moves or no moves at all than waste resources on buying more old slightly less mediocre players. This team needs the kind of help that doesn’t come from midseason deadlines, these are holes that need complete renovating but those type of players are usually only available in the offseason.

    • Former ACE MannyGeee

      Once again, the rebuilding of a sports team is not an exact science, much less so than rebuilding your home. There is as much a chance of this team making a run in September and winning the Division as there is of a newly minted Yankees team (post-rebuild) having a winning season, let alone a playoff run.

  • HTD

    Zero chance they sell in Mariano’s final season

    • Robinson Tilapia

      Slightly disagree, I guess? What’s more important is that retire in pinstripes, not a winner.

      I think they chase one of those two WC spots, like everyone else seems to be, and that THAT’S the reason they don’t sell more than Mo is.

      • HTD

        I see what you’re saying. I still think it would be the ultimate slap in the face to Mo if the Yankees started selling when they’re only 3 games back of one of the WC spots

        • Robinson Tilapia

          Slap in your face, or slap in Mo’s face?

          Not trying to get on your case, honestly, but I’ve never seen Mariano Rivera be selfish enough a player to put his happiness in front of what’s best for the team.

          • Pojack

            Maybe not,but Mariano’s been in the playoffs every year but one and they didn’t fold it in that year.

  • Poconos Adam

    Rebuilding for the Yanks is a 1-2 year process max– it’s not like this is the Padres or Royals.

    The “it take a decade to rebuild” crowd…..when the Yanks hit rock bottom in 1989 (far worse team than now) they were already competitive again in 1993…..by my calculations, that is NOT a decade. ….and they were not spending the money back then.

    To me, rebuild means stop wasting ABs and IPs on ancient overpaid crap when the season is (arguably) a loss. Play Mesa, bring up Murphy in mid-august, bring Rondon back and see if he can get LHB out, etc. ….learn something about the guys in your farm (I’m not saying rush them–just guys near the top).

    Then spend some money in the off-season and mix the usual vets, big name signee into the mix and go from there. That is not a “decade”.

    • Jim Is A (Bored) Peckerhead

      “Then spend some money in the off-season and mix the usual vets, big name signee into the mix and go from there. That is not a “decade”.”

      What big name signees? The high quality guys are being locked up early. Most big name signees will have question marks, will be expensive, and could lead us to the same place we are this year.

      Rebuilding is a different animal than it was 10 years ago.

      • Mister D

        Yep. I think many fans do not or will not recognize how much the new CBA (aka the “screw the Yankees agreement”) has altered the playing field. The Yankees cannot build a 2013 or 2014 team using 1998 methods.

      • Poconos Adam

        Yeah, I agree — I’m advocating a mix of young and “old” that is basically a necessity under the 189 plan and the new CBA.

        Yeah, other teams are locking guys up, but there are quality players that can improve this team available every year.

        What’s your plan? Not rebuild? Not waste money in FA? Lock up quality young players that we don’t have?

        There are numerous ways to a winning ball club — but some people seem to be advocating do nothing…..basically because they like to be negative on other comments and not offer anything…..

        • Jim Is A (Bored) Peckerhead

          I see nothing wrong with that plan, I just wouldn’t call it rebuilding. The Astros are rebuilding.

          Honestly? I like the Yankees idea of trying to hold serve until we see what we have in the minors. I’d just like us to maybe pass up on the obvious fail-guys like Wells.

          We’re the Yankees; we can afford a few high priced mistakes, I’d just like it if those mistakes weren’t really obvious from the start. I also prefer us waiting on the 189 plan until the 2000’s contracts(Jeter/Tex/ARod) expire, because otherwise we’re intentionally handcuffing ourselves.

          I don’t want to stand pat. And honestly, if you want to rebuild, I can get on board with that too; I just am going to be really irritated when a lot of rebuild-proponents are screaming next October that we didn’t “rebuild” in 12 months.

    • Former ACE MannyGeee

      For every 1989-1993 Yankees, there are a handful of 2003-today and beyond Mariners. Or Royals, or Pirates, or Phillies, or Mets…

      You are pointing out the exception to the rule and taking it as the most likely result. Your expectations are flawed.

    • Robinson Tilapia

      That’s not rebuilding.

      • Preston

        No it’s not, and if we really fall out of the race this is exactly what we’ll do in September. No need to give up prematurely now.

      • Poconos Adam

        I love this — so if rebuilding is different now, and therefore undoable, what does the team do? Keep buying old broken down players while struggling against a self-imposed cap? You are seeing the result this year! It will be even worse next year with no cap space…..So just continue?

        I’m advocating a “Yankees way” version of rebuilding. They’re not going to sell every single piece — they are not the Marlins or Padres. Stop acting like the NYY are like any other team in baseball.

        The points about the new CBA DEMAND that you use your farm system — and if you don’t have A+ ‘plug them in’ prospects (which we all know we don’t), then you need to plug in what you have (B and C guys) and see what happens. is Melky Mesa the answer? Probably not, but funny, no one in Texas ever thought Nelson Cruz was an answer….sometimes you need to let guys play and see where it goes.

        So if any version of “rebuilding” is a no-go, then what is your plan? My version of rebuilding is really simply a “mix in more young guys” flavor on what they’ve done this year. Will it cost wins? Yeah, probably…..but stop deluding yourself in thinking this is a competitive ball club.

        • Robinson Tilapia

          You got all that from three words of mine? Why do I need to propose my own plan? I am a fan. I’m not a front office employee.

          I “lean” buy, but I think any plan outside of “buy big names for prospects and go for broke” is one I could get behind….other than the ridiculous “TRADE MO HE DESERVEZ TEH WIN” crap we hear if we hang around these threads long enough.

          What you’re proposing isn’t what rebuilding traditionally means. That’s all I’m saying. Call it what you want to call it, but it’s not what most think of when they say “rebuilding.”

          The Yankees are the Yankees, but they are not impervious to same pains every other franchise will suffer at one point or another, and they will fail like those other franchises do. They’re only human after all.

          *cue Daft Punk song*

          • Poconos Adam

            My post was to everyone screaming “rebuilding takes ten years” “we can’t do it” etc.

            I agree with you — it’s not traditional….the 21st century yanks are their own animal —

            I guess I’m just amazed I’m taking so much flak for advocating a youth movement — which in yanks’ speak probably means about 2-3 other young guys…..

            • Robinson Tilapia

              I guess I see what you’re saying as more of a “re-tool.” I could certainly get behind that, and it does bring you closer to what the Sox did, without the John Stockton-like assist from the Dodgers, of course. Get a few younger pieces in, keep a core, etc.

              The problem is that there are really commenters here who think trading anyone of value away will result in an instantly competitive team because everyone else’s prospects are can’t miss and ours….well, you know. You’re probably unfairly getting lumped in with that.

              On 7/31, if this team remains about 3-4 games out of a WC, it’s going to take balls of steel for the Yankees to turn to the fanbase and say “we’re not going for it,” however detrimental, or not, that is.

        • Former ACE MannyGeee

          In fairness, if you are going to sell but ONLY sell Cano/Kuroda/Granderson/Hughes/Joba (because everyone has no trade value), then this is a $150M payroll team that goes 70-90 for the next 3 seasons. As long as you have $100M tied up in CC/A-Rod/Tex/Jeter, you have to spend money around them to compete.

          If you’re gonna blow this shit up, then BLOW. IT. UP. That means no CC, no Gardner, no Jeter, no A-Rod, no Tex, no veteran making more than $5M, everyone else going via arbitration.

          Lets see a $50M payroll Yankees team playing for the Strasburg/Harper picks for the next 5 seasons to re-build. Otherwise, the plan to “SELL SELL SELL” is as much a band-aid as trading for Soriano is.

    • HTD

      “Rebuilding for the Yanks is a 1-2 year process max” yeah I’m gonna go with a no on that one…

      What you described is not rebuilding. Giving a bunch of C+ prospects playing time in August isn’t rebuilding. With an average at best farm system, the Yankees would need to trade their few trade-able assets for some sort of prospect haul if they actually wanted to rebuild. And as we have seen with the Mariners and the Royals, rebuilding doesn’t always mean instant success with that first wave of prospects.

      Also, here is the 2014 free agent class http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/.....-rankings/. Who do you want the Yankees to sign, while still staying under the 189 threshold?

      • CashmanSUX

        “Rebuilding for the Yanks is a 1-2 year process max”
        ================================
        You obviously have no idea what the Yankees are or what they have. Their AAA roster is crap. Most of their AA roster is crap.

        Meanwhile, in the big leagues, they have Lyle Overbay batting cleanup every night, and the only thing more pathetic than that is that the rest of the lineup is so pathetic there is absolutely no rational case to be made for Overbay ever hitting any lower than 4th!

        CC Sabathia had a soaring linedrive rate and was missing fewer bats (in other words, was clearly skidding in the wrong direction) BEFORE Brian Cashman thought giving him 5 for 125 was a good idea.

        The Yankees have one real good starter, and he’s in his late 30’s, a skidding Sabathia, and a bunch of crap behind them. They have a great back of the bullpen, but half of that is retiring at the end of this year. Most of the rest of their roster has no business being in the major leagues, much less starting every single day.

        • HTD

          Reply fail?

        • Pojack

          I’m curious to know if you know what is in the Yankees system in Double A and Triple or about to get called up to it. Have you watched Nova pitch this year? If they have no talent on the pitching staff or in the lineup how are they contending for a playoff spot?

  • Mister D

    1. It is a sellers market (reportedly).
    2. They are not better than the teams they are competing with.
    3. There is no reason to believe ARod or Jeter will come back and be competitive.
    4. They don’t have the chips for a substantial “get”.
    5. They don’t have near enough chips to fill in all their holes.
    6. They DO have a number of desirable players (Cano, Kuroda, Gardner, Roberts, and arguably Joba and Hughes), many of whom are not signed for next year.
    7. Unless they get a bunch of players under contract beyond this year, or completely abandon Plan 189 (or ARod never returns and his money taken off the books), they will be in the same position next year.

    This team has rolled through the American League since 1994. I want to win, but this isn’t exactly a once in a generation playoff opportunity. We can bite the rebuilding bullet for a year or two.

    • Former ACE MannyGeee

      ‘ We can bite the rebuilding bullet for a year or two.’

      A year or two seems EXTREMELY optimistic considering a real rebuild would include selling everything that’s not nailed down. You are asking for sure mediocrity and expecting a miracle.

      • Mister D

        Fair enough. I just don’t see how buying this year speeds up the process. I am perfectly willing to admit I’m wrong, but I don’t see them being good enough to get anywhere in the playoffs this year (if they are even fortunate enough to make it), whether they buy, sell or stand pat. Selling at least would offer the chance to make the team better faster.

  • Darren

    Gah! All of you are advocating to sell have been blined by 2-0 years of top notch success. Most teams don’t go year after year of winning the division or the Wild Card. What the Yankees are experiencing this year is typical. Lots and lots of probelms, but they have a shot to make it in.

    They should be fighting for the division. Get Soriano, now. Get Michael Young, now. Look for another bat, now. I’d be fine with trading Hughes and Joba, but we don’t have many spare other parts.

    STFY about trading Cano already, that’s not happening. You’re wasting our eyeballs.

    I’d consider trading Gardner if we got back somethinbg decent.

  • FRANK

    I know this team wants to win, but in terms of the future…I’d much rather see them get something for kuroda, granderson, hughes, or maybe even cano if they don’t intend to re-sign them after the season (Granderson/Hughes) or don’t think they can (Cano) or in Kuroda’s case…if he may just retire. They’re not winning a WS this year…I mean, anything is possible, but I just don’t see it. At some point you have to be realistic and say let’s start building for next year. They have assets that teams would pay for and those assets aren’t in the 2014 plan. Can they offer Hughes/Cano/Kuroda/Granderson QO’s and take picks instead…sure, but if you could trade HK to the dodgers for a top flight outfield or shortstop prospect who may be able to contribute in 2014/15 as opposed to a draft pick potentially being 3-5 years away….why not do it. It all comes down to being realistic with this team’s expectations. If it’s not a playoff team then it’s silly to hold onto these guys to get to 87 wins instead o 83 or whatever.

  • HTD

    Obviously as Yankees fans we haven’t had to “rebuild” in quite some time now, but I get the sense that there are many that don’t understand how hard it is to actually rebuild. The 2011 Royals had what many considered to be the most stacked farm system in recent history and 2 years later they are still facing mediocrity. Rebuilding isn’t a 1-2 year process. More often than not, the first wave of prospects don’t all simultaneously reach their ceiling. Look at the supposed Matusz-Tillman-Arrieta-Britton rotation that the O’s were supposed to have from 2009 onwards… fast forward 4 years and only Tillman is an average starter. Prospects are a huge crapshoot, and banking on only a few years of rebuilding is foolish.

    • Robinson Tilapia

      Thank you.

      And that still shouldn’t even be the argument for not doing it. It’s just the argument against rebuilding as a “Get of Jail Free” card because the Red Sox did something that wasn’t even remotely rebuilding and are in first right now.

    • Mister D

      No question it will be difficult, but I also see it as inevitable at this point, again assuming they keep the chains on their payroll.

      • HTD

        Yeah personally I have no idea what I would do if I were Cashman. He’s in a huge pickle with Tex/A-Rod’s horrific contracts, the 189 threshold, the aging roster, an average at best farm system with all of its talent in the lower minors, and the fact that it’s the damn Yankees who are expected to compete every year. I understand both arguments for buying or selling, but I’m still unsure which side I’m on.

        • Robinson Tilapia

          I’ll gladly take his salary but…..yeah. Definitely.

          And I have no clue either what side I’m on.

      • Poconos Adam

        EXACTLY! You have to do some version of rebuilding because the cap!

        The whole point is that their self imposed cap and current salaries mean they HAVE TO PLAY cheap kids or cheap veterans.

        …and it will be WORSE if they stick to 189 in 2014.

        You cannot have it both ways — you cannot keep adding expensive veterans to solve the problem unless you clear cap space — by trading or letting expensive guys go.

  • CashmanSUX

    We can all speculate about this potential move or that potential move until we’re blue in the face.

    If the Yankees are SERIOUS about winning with a reduced payroll, the first and by far most important move they have to make is hiring a competent general manager.

    PS. if they can get one that spend his days writing blackmail checks, searching for fake ID’s and back-alley abortion clinics, that would be even better.

  • http://www.flickr.com/photos/roadgeek/ Roadgeek Adam

    Well this room sounds no different.

    Cashman, buy whatever you can. This team still has a chance people. Hell, the Dodgers have come back nearly 10 back. The 2011 Cardinals came from 10 back.

    Don’t rule anything out until there is an E next to that.

    We’re the Yankees. We buy, never sell.

  • Preston

    It all depends on Jeter, A-Rod and Granderson. We can’t trade for enough pieces to make this a “good” offense. We need at least three league average or better bats, probably more like 4 or 5 to become “good”. The team knows a lot more about the state of those injured players than we do. If they think they’re getting at least two of them back, let’s grab another guy or two and go for it. If they think that none of those guys are going to have a significant impact maybe it is time to sell. Although I don’t like trading Cano or Kuroda since I think we should want to bring them both back next season. However, if we are going to do it let’s go big. I had said I would only be willing to trade Cano for an elite package, like to the Dodgers For Lee, Seager, Pederson, and everybody said I was way over-valueing Cano, and they’re probably right. But maybe the Dodgers would do it if it was for Cano, Kuroda, Hughes, and Chamberlain for those three prospects. Garza just brought back a top 50 prospect in Olt plus more. Kuroda should bring back a similar haul. Cano should net more than that. Add in two bullpen upgrades and asking for three top 50 guys may be a little much, but not by a lot.

    • Robinson Tilapia

      *wishes all of 44 MLB games didn’t come without the hype machine right now*

    • HTD

      FWIW Olt is no longer a top 50 prospect. His stock has taken a huge hit this year with the vision problems, plus he’s struggling in AAA as an almost 25 year old

      • Preston

        Marc Hulet dropped him from 48-52 in his pre-season rankings. He’s a really good defender at 3b with elite power, his stock didn’t free fall because he had a couple of bad months at AAA.

        • Preston

          I meant to say from his pre-season rankings to his mid-season rankings.

          • HTD

            I stand corrected, I thought BA left him off their top 50 midseason list but he’s still on there. Sickels left him off his, however. Seems like he’s dividing the scouting community a bit

            • Preston

              Whether he’s 50 or 60 it doesn’t really matter. All of Lee, Pederson and Seager are more highly regarded prospects than Olt right now. So I think it would be a slight overpay. But pair it with Cano, add in some relief help and the Dodgers penchant to want to make a big splash. I think maybe it works. Those three guys added to our system along with the 3 first rounders and the guys we have and I think we have one of the better systems in baseball. Doing this wouldn’t be my first choice, I still would like to compete, and I’d like to retain both Kuroda and Cano next year. But if we were going to sell, I would be excited about getting this kind of MiLB talent back.

            • Gonzo

              Keith Law had him at #71 in this year’s preseason top 100. Not everyone was buying his great year at AA as top 50 talent.

              • Preston

                That’s fair, but most prospects who are consensus top 50 guys, are really in most peoples top 25, I’m sure the Rangers thought of him as a top 50 guy in trade negotiations.

                • Gonzo

                  Sure, but they might not have either. There was a question about his contact rates before the vision/concussion issues.

    • The Lime

      Cashman can trade Cano and Kuroda and resign them as FAs. These two events aren’t mutually exclusive.

      • Robinson Tilapia

        I’ll bet you one million internet dollars neither would come back if he tried.

        • Poconos Adam

          Agree. These are human beings — thrown them away and they are gone for good.

      • Preston

        That’s a video game GM mentality. If the Yankees trade Kuroda and Cano, they are damaging their relationship with those players. Yes it’s a business, and yes money solves a lot of problems but it’s silly to pretend like the two things aren’t related. Additionally we lose a lot of leverage that is gained by offering the QO making us the only team that doesn’t have to give up a pick to get them.

  • Backseat GM

    Back in Spring Training, when the Yankees were deciding between Wells and Soriano as right-handed outfield pick-ups whose contracts would be mostly swallowed by the other team (Angels and Cubs respectively), I had the thought, “Why not get both? They won’t count against the payroll cap. The worst-case scenario is a DFA and release for one or both.”

    I’ll be glad if the Yankees get Soriano on a similar deal to Wells (i.e. no impact on payroll in 2014), but I can’t help but wonder if this move couldn’t have been done in Spring Training. Then Soriano would have had Ben Francisco’s spot on the roster (that’s a big-enough plus right there), he and Wells would have shared LF/DH duty with Ichiro and Boesch in right, Soriano could have absorbed playing time during Wells’ slump, and Boesch could have been optioned to clear the way for Granderson. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

  • Joe

    I think this team should sell. I haven’t really bought into this team being a championship contending offense for the last 3 years despite all these offensive stats people want to throw at me. I don’t necessarily buy into the fact that you are necessarily the best offense if you score the most runs of any team in baseball. The Red Sox are first in runs scored, but they are not a better offense than the Tigers in my eyes. Heck I don’t even think Boston is better than the Orioles offensively. In a 5 or 7 game series I have Boston going out against Detroit and even possibly Baltimore if they get another pitcher. There isn’t a PERFECT way to build a championship caliber offensively, but there are BETTER ways to build a lineup that gives you a better chance to get to the World Series or just have more postseason success in general. I mean if you are a casual fan that looks at things casually, you won’t take much notice of it if you only look at runs scored, but I do believe looking into things deeper the Tigers set themselves up better every year than the Yanks or Red Sox even if they don’t score more runs than them or even the most runs of any team. That’s not to say runs scored isn’t important, but as we have seen the last several years, the team with the most runs scored has proven to mean nothing. If we’ve learned anything we’re more likely to see the 3rd ranked do better and the 1st ranked offense to fail miserably in high stakes games.

  • Vinnie

    I think we should trade Kuroda. He’s not going to pitch much longer and we keep suspecting that it’s his last year.

    Would you trade Kuroda for Addison Russell?