Aug
21

NYP: Hal holds meeting with staff to discuss lack of minor league talent

By

Via George King & Dan Martin: Owner Hal Steinbrenner held a meeting with the Yankees’ scouting and development staff to discuss the club’s lack of upper level minor league talent on Monday. It’s unclear who was in attendance aside from Brian Cashman, but it’s likely VP of Baseball Ops Mark Newman, amateur scouting director Damon Oppenheimer, and international scouting director Donny Rowland were there according to the NY Post scribes.

Outside of Preston Claiborne and maybe Austin Romine, the Yankees have had pretty much no internal solutions for their various roster holes all year. They had to go outside the organization for help following nearly every injury, and the more recent injuries to Vidal Nuno (groin), David Phelps (forearm), and Michael Pineda (shoulder) mean the club doesn’t have anyone to replace the generally ineffective Phil Hughes. Their inability to develop prospects — I’m not sure any team gets less out of more from their system — has been a long-standing problem and a big reason why the Yankees look to be in poor shape going forward. They simply haven’t produced any viable young players beyond a few relievers in the last five years.

Categories : Asides, Minors

263 Comments»

  1. Eric says:

    I think Ivan Nova is a notable exception, but the point remains.

    • mitch says:

      Nova is a homegrown guy who has contributed this year, but he’s been around for 4 years now.

      • Robinson Tilapia says:

        He’s contributed more than this year. He’s just been maddeningly inconsistent.

        When on, he’s exceeded just about what anyone expected from him.

        • lightSABR says:

          Agreed: 6.5 fWAR over parts of four seasons is hardly all-star material, but it’s definitely a valuable major-leaguer.

          The same is true of David Phelps’ 1.8 fWAR over smaller parts of two seasons. The Yankees’ farm system isn’t producing all-stars – how often do you expect it to, with their draft position and the new restrictions on international free agent signings – but I think Mike’s claim that they haven’t produced “any viable young players beyond a few relievers in the last five years” is a bit over the top.

    • Charles says:

      *Exception for 2011, June of 2012, and since being activated from the DL in Late June. Those are the real consistent parts of seasons that he’s had.

      I’m not saying that he’s a bum and that you shouldn’t think that hes a solid MLB starter at this point, but we have to see a bit more of him performing at this level for a more extended period of time to call him a legitimate success from the Yankees farm system.

      • Preston says:

        They’ve gotten 6.5 WAR in his 3 pre-arb years from a guy who was signed for 80k as a 17 yo and never ranked in the top 100, that’s already a success.

      • Tisha says:

        The lack of major league talent fails on Cashman, Newman, Rowland, Michaels, and Oppenhemier.
        Starting back in 1999 when the Yanks were in the middle of that run and they passed on signing 16 years Miguel Cabrera as a international FA. Then , again in 2002, they pass on international FA Carlos Gonzalez and they take Brandon Weeden instead of Joey Votto in the first round. This comes back to bite them in 2009 when they lose on Trout because of signing Tex.in 2004, they could have taken Jeremy Hellickson and Desmond Jennings in 2006 and They could have drafted Matt Moore and Chris Archer. Now, they are part of the Ray’s rotation. 2007 they take Andrew Brackman in the first round and pass on Gian Carlo Stanton in the first round.
        2008 they lost Gerritt Cole because of Scott Boras. 2009 they lose Trout because they signed both AJ and Tex. 2010 they waste a first round pick in Cito Culver ,when they could have taken Alex Cobb. 2012 they screw up taking Dante Bichette Jr.
        They pass on Jorge Soler, Chapman Newman, Oppenhemier and Rowland needs to go immediately. The Rangers , Red Sox, Cards and Rays pick as low as us and they make much wiser choices

        • toad says:

          Quite an indictment.

          • lightSABR says:

            I think you could tell a similar story about most teams, and to the extent the Yankees’ story is worse, some of it has just been bad luck. Evaluating and developing talent is difficult, most promising youngsters fail to live up to their promise, and for every 17-year-old future all-star, there are 5 other kids who look just as talented who never amount to anything.

            Have the Yankees made some obvious mistakes? Yes. Bichette was one, Culver was probably another, and A-Rod’s current contract is a third. But Brackman looked like a good idea at the time, as did signing A.J. You may not like that we signed Teix and traded good prospects for Granderson, but they were at least defensible moves and probably good ones.

            I hope the Yankees can improve the performance of their farm system, but you’re deluding yourself if you think even the best GMs and scouts don’t have along list of failures in their past. That’s just how the game works.

          • lightSABR says:

            For just one more piece of evidence: Mike Trout was drafted 25th. That means that 24 teams’ scouting departments failed to see what he would become. That’s four fifths of the MLB.

            Remember that the next time you accuse the Yankees of being incompetent the next time some kid they didn’t draft turns into a superstar.

        • Jim Is A (Bored) Peckerhead says:

          “This comes back to bite them in 2009 when they lose on Trout because of signing Tex”

          False.

        • All Praise Be To Mo says:

          Even if they didn’t sign Tex, they would have lost that pick for signing CC and Burnett as well, Tex was just ranked higher so the pick went to the Angels instead of the Brewers.

    • BK2ATL says:

      And Nova was only considered a “organizational arm” 4 years ago, then he went on a AAA tear that forced mgmt to give him a shot in MLB over such notable home-grown fan favorites as Sergio Mitre, Dustin Moseley, and Chad Gaudin…..

      To continue the point, the same was said about Nuno on this very board just last year. Justin Maxwell is seeing much more regular playing time in MLB. Chris Dickerson as well.

      My point being, you’ll never know what you have until you try it out first. At least, you go in with lower expectations and have a base on where to start/continue that development. Just let the kids play, rather than constantly hitting up the retread factory line.

      As an example, Nova’s 1st start vs. Toronto, the kid was all nerves, but throwing 94-97 mph and trying to spot his curve. Girardi had him on a pitch count….. He’s still inconsistent, but he’s competitive and has learned to pitch in MLB.

      Warren was brought up last year, I believe, to face Boston in Fenway in his 1st start. What kind of success do you think that’s going to have? Didn’t have much, he got shelled and subsequently demoted.

      Also worth noting, we had Mark Melancon and Zach McAlister in house a couple of years ago. Never gave either a real MLB consideration, but decided to trade them both for such future stars as Lance Berkman and Austin Kearns.

      My main point is that this organization has proven that it has no patience for development, so they end up “buying” junk to plug holes short-term where if patience was exhibited, the solutions could be in-house.

      A secondary point might be to temper down the hype machine on these prospects. None of our top 5 prospects over each of the past 5 years have amounted to much more than a hill of beans so far, with the Yankees. Now Austin Jackson flourished in Detroit. Ian Kennedy in Arizona. And even Jose Tabata is coming around in Pittsburgh. Meanwhile, the Joba, Hughes, Jesus Montero, Brackman, Betances, Banuelos prospects haven’t produced a solid player out of the bunch years later. People have these kids trying to live up to the unreachable heights of the Jeter, Pettitte, Mariano and Posada crew and their immediate impact and success, rather than working them in, cheering them on, expecting the bumps and bruises, and letting the success happen more organically.

  2. Dick M says:

    Keystone cops. Hal is finally figuring this out?

  3. MB923 says:

    I don’t understand how they always get ranked from 10-15 in team farm system ranking then. Can someone explain how that works out? It seems every year they’re the only team that lacks a top talent player but farm system rankings still have them as an average to above average farm team. I don’t get it.

    • RetroRob says:

      Possible reason: This is not uncommon for teams ranked in the midpoint and below. Have no idea if that’s true.

      Overall, though, not sure why this has suddenly risen to the top of Hal’s charts. Their better position prospects were in A-ball last year, just hitting AA this year. AAA was going to be pretty empty, with further issues created by the injuries to Banuelos and Pineda. (Including him since the team traded their top position prospect for him.)

      • Robinson Tilapia says:

        1. It’s the New York Post reporting this.

        2. I’m just glad they’re talking about any of it.

        3. I can’t imagine Hal’s microwaved many burritos in his life.

        4. They’re going to need to get awfully good, and not just “about where they should be for a team always drafting late” at graduating guys in one piece if they’re going to be the “Rays with money.”

        5. Yeah, I do think it really sucks that ManBan lost two years of development, that Campos is on this massive innings limit now, and that Pineda’s surgery happened during a period in which they were closely monitoring him.

        • MannyGeee says:

          +1 for the burrito reference.

          I am almost positive that Hal gets all his information on what a baseball team should be doing from Wikipedia, like you or I learning how to make Turkey Jerky or reset our Check Engine Light.

        • entonces says:

          Bogus issue. Yankees actually have a very large number of contributing players from their own system. Nova, Phelps, Warren, Claiborne and Nuno (before injury) all cost-controlled contributors this year. Romine has begun to kick in. Yes, it’s true outfield prospects have disappointed. But these are still kids– and nobody could have expected them up this year. Betamces revival has also shown that all the Killer B handwringing may have been premature. ManBan still on horizon. The real issue is not with Yankee scouting or development. It’s with the hideous short-sighted way they keep young kids from getting legit big league chance. We see with Romine and Warren how bad early starts can be reversed. Even Adams was turning it around before he was dumped. Nothing wrong with Yankee kids — just let them play.

          • I'm One says:

            The real issue is not with Yankee scouting or development. It’s with the hideous short-sighted way they keep young kids from getting legit big league chance.

            Saved me some writing. I agree with this, although enhancements in scouting and development would also help, most likely.

          • LarryM Fl says:

            Amen! I was so happy watching Romine get three hits but have given up my soap box for the kid. He may have issues getting together with pitchers because he hasn’t learned enough about them with 39 starts behind the plate.

    • Mac says:

      Jesus Montero was a top 6 BA prospect three years in a row. Banuelos was a BA top 30 prospect going into 2012. They had four top 100 prospects going into this season.

      Org rankings shouldn’t be just about “top talent players,” as you call them, but the Yankees have had plenty of those in recent years and still have most of them in the system as we speak.

      • kenthadley says:

        It now appears that Montero was a top prospect because of A-Juice. His “success” needs to be discounted significantly as an organizational chip, especially since he can’t field a position either. Guess they couldn’t find anything for that in South Florida.

        • MannyGeee says:

          Plot twist: all the bulk from the PEDs will wear off to a point where he will be limber enough to field the catcher position better, and he becomes the next Mike Piazza. BOOM

        • Cool Lester Smooth says:

          None of that has anything to do with MB923′s wrongheaded comment. The fact is that, at the time, Montero’s ungodly production made him a top 10 prospect regardless of the fact that no one other than us ever thought he could play catcher in the MLB, so it’s completely incorrect to say:

          It seems every year they’re the only team that lacks a top talent player but farm system rankings still have them as an average to above average farm team.

          Because they did, in fact, have a “top talent player” from 2010-2012.

        • Robinson Tilapia says:

          You can’t prove any of that.

          However, recent events may shed some light as to why it seemed like his entire purpose was to serve as trade chip.

          Whatever, though. He underachieved after being traded. A-Jaz overachieved within the same time period.

    • Charles says:

      Well the premise of the article is about their lack of UPPER level talent. Other than Murphy/Betances who else was there to watch before the recent promotion of Mason Williams?

      Org rankings mostly are based off of talent and it’s completely plausible that a team could be ranked top 10 heck even top 5 and still have trouble filling holes from within due to the lack of upper level prospects.

      • Robinson Tilapia says:

        At some point next season, Banuelos, Ramirez, Austin, Heathcott, and Murphy will all be in AAA, barring something unforseen. This is going to change quickly.

        Completely agree on your second point.

  4. Frank says:

    One of the most over-rated farm systems in MLB. Players hyped to the max. The proof is in the pudding as they say.

    • jjyank says:

      Is being in the 11-15 range really that overrated?

      I dunno. I think that sounds about right. Average, maybe a tick better. Honestly, it’s the injuries that worry me more. The farm system would look a lot better if guys like Hensley and Banuelos were playing. And Judge, Clarkin, Austin, Campos, and more that I’m sure that I’ve forgetting have all missed time as well.

      • Jim Is A (Bored) Peckerhead says:

        If Frank cared enough, he’d go look at the results of the farm systems as a whole from the other 29 teams in baseball, like all of the rankings gurus do, and realize that 11-15 is pretty accurate.

        It’s not like every other team in baseball has a system like STL or TB.

        • Frank says:

          The so-called rankings you speak of are a crapshoot. One so-called expert can say team A is ranked 3rd while another says 10th. It’s just like the draft. The bottom line is the Yanks have nothing imminent. No SS, infielder, or OFr worth a damn. If anything, this season proves that. The starting pitching is nothing special. Remember the killer B’s from just 2 years ago- how’s that working out? You’re already hearing reports that Sanchez is not that good defensively. Gee, sounds very familiar.

      • ChrisS says:

        I think the differences between the teams in the 10-20 range are probably pretty negligible. There’s a handful of loaded teams and a handful of teams with a lot of holes. Everyone else is just kind of smooshed up in the middle. The Yankees have just failed to develop much of anyone. That recent experiment with teams built solely on homegrown players? The Yankees were awful and probably one of the worst 2-3 teams.

        I’d be hesitant about including Clarkin or Judge in any discussion about how talented the Yankees system is considering they were just drafted.

        • Jim Is A (Bored) Peckerhead says:

          Actually if you’re just considering talent, there’s no reason to ignore Clarkin or Judge. Talent has nothing to do with production and everything to do with scouting and projection.

        • jjyank says:

          Why are we ignoring Judge and Clarkin? They were legit first round talents, and now they’re in the system. Just because they haven’t really played much doesn’t mean they don’t count when we’re evaluating the talent in the system. They still exist.

  5. trr says:

    Hal is obviously reading RAB
    OK – which one of you is him?

  6. Chris says:

    Most Farm System rankings are based on the ceiling of the players in the system. The Yankees have a ton of high ceiling players. Problem is, they all get hurt or fail to materialize above A-ball. Once again, the Yankees have a ton of guys in Short-season and even A-ball with loads of potential. The system just can’t seem to get them to keep growing as they move to AA and AAA. They either stop progressing (even regressing) or they get a significant injury. It is puzzling for sure.

  7. Robinson Tilapia says:

    “No, Hal, the Columbus Clippers are now property of someone else. Here’s the actual Scranton roster…..oh, never mind, just look at Columbus again.”

    They have been drafting better. There have been injuries, which actually do concern me greatly, as I feel like guys have missed more time than they should have, too much reinjury occurring, etc. There has been some adjusting to level with some guys, but we saw signs of improvement throughout the season from every one of those players, with two being promoted to AA before season’s end, and the expectation that both Austin and Slade will be in AAA next season.

    I understand the frustration, but people seem to forget that five years ago, we were talking about a lack of focus on even drafting solid position players. We knew a lot of this then. We’re double-dipping into the complaint jar with a lot of this. Do we see an improvement in that since that time? I’d have to say, overall, yes.

    Still, though, I’m glad to see that ownership is involved in ANY conversation as to the MiLB system. Those who want change should be tickled pink here.

    • Dale Mohorcic says:

      While I agree with most of what you say, it scares me when this ownership group decides to get involved in anything.

    • kenthadley says:

      Another indication that Cashman has been a very ordinary GM, working in an environment that has a championship mantra. He, as much as anyone, has contributed to the current mediocrity of the roster and organization…it would be great if this was almost any other organization except maybe Boston. But the Steins espouse “the best” and Cashman has not been the best. This minor league issue is totally on him, and it’s about time somebody held him accountable. He doesn’t have to be fired, just has to be better.

      • jjyank says:

        You can place blame where ever you want, but let’s be real here. The Yankees, or any team for that matter, were not going to win forever. They spend damn near two decades being one of the best teams in baseball, winning 5 championships and consistently finishing first in the division. At some point, that was going to end, no matter who the GM was.

        Not saying there weren’t things that Cashman couldn’t have done better. Nobody is perfect. But I’m pretty sure any fan base out there would trade places with us right now if it meant getting the last ~17 years as well.

        • kenthadley says:

          I agree with most of this. I still think not signing Martin, Ibanez, maybe Chavez, and letting Quintana go for nothing are examples of Cashman’s recent contributions to this roster chaos, along with being surprised this year that he had a 39 year old shortstop and a 38 year old third baseman to the extent that there wasn’t anyone close in the organization to fill in adequately.

          • Jim Is A (Bored) Peckerhead says:

            Martin, fine.

            I’m not agreeing with anyone who thinks letting Ibanez and Chavez go was a mistake without the benefit of hindsight.

            • MannyGeee says:

              Actually, methinks a giant bullet was dodged in Ibanez. He would have been called on to play LF, a la Wells, and has had an incredibly Mendoza-level past month. 24 of those 25 homeruns happened pre-ASB.

              At least Wells has been hitting over the past 30 days (albeit in SOOOPER limited time) and is on the right side (correct side, for the pun-conscious) of a platoon.

              Should Chavez have come back, and be sitting on the NYY DL instead of the Arizona DL, then Cashman would have also failed.

              (In hindsight, I woulda taken Ibanez over Pronk for the LHDH spot and Chavez over Youk. But these decisions are a two way street, whos to say they’d come back in the roles offered to them)

          • jjyank says:

            That’s fair. I was in favor of re-signing Martin. Letting Ibanez go seemed like a no brainer to me. He’s having a nice 2013, sure, but at the time he seemed like an obvious “one year only” guy. Chavez would have been great too, but I recall him going to Arizona to be closer to home. Free agency is a two-way street, remember.

            • I'm One says:

              Free agency is a two-way street, remember.

              Ha! Of course it isn’t. If Cashmand wants a guy, he can just go out and spend and make the guy come to NY. Don’t you know he has an unlimited budget (with no ownership influence) and the ability to “force trades” (or force signings in this case, I guess)?

      • mike says:

        Amen. Cashman is afraid to pull the trigger on any sort of risky deals because he himself knows that he has a poor history. The guy calculates that he is better off doing nothing and saying “we’re not going to panic.” We could use a Dombrowski.

        • MannyGeee says:

          or… OR..

          Cashman is more risk adverse than, lets say…. Theo Epstein or Arte Moreno, since that has gone not entirely well for those boys when given an open checkbook and the keys to the castle.

          Only in this place could we want Cashman to be simultaneously large market and small market, but only do the best of both and never the negatives of both.

      • Billy says:

        Cashman pulled the trigger on the A-Rod, Abreu, Swisher, and Granderson deals. He obviously deserves credit for that. Other than trading Clippard for Albaladejo, can you really say he had any other bad ones? And don’t bring up Montero for Pineda because the jury is still out on that one…

        If anything, Cashman has been held back by the higher-ups. Supposedly, if he had it his way we’d have Russ Martin back with Shiertholtz platooning in the OF instead of Ichiro. Also, Cash was against re-signing A-Rod. If you’re going to blame anyone, blame the Steinbrenner bros for interjecting in places they don’t belong…

    • Craig says:

      Yes…I think people overestimate the time it takes to develop prospects and to change the farm system. I believe the system is actually pretty strong and that people will be happy with what they are seeing a year from now.

      The problem is that the major league roster got ravaged with injuries, the MLB replacements got injured, the original injured players got re-injured and then a number of the minor leaguers got injured too.

      The talent is there and is progressing. They just needed it now. It will be ready the 2nd half of next year and into 2015.

      • Jim Is A (Bored) Peckerhead says:

        Yup, this. The timing of our inevitable age-related injury collapse and the readiness of our minor league crop didn’t coincide. And they made matters worse with the 189!1!!! plan. This would be a much smaller story if Jeter, Alex, Tex, even Cervelli, hadn’t all been hurt, or if the FO had kept their mouths shut in the off season.

      • mike says:

        The issue isn’t players getting hurt – its that many of their top picks were idiotic ( Cole, Brackman, Culver, Bichette etc)without an eye to building a deep system, and they have gotten nothing out of the rest of the organization’s development plan of lower round players into serviceable players.

        Irrespective of the “plan” or “injuries” or the grand strategy, the results speak for themselves, and the Yanks have had to overpay for retreads and a menagerie of DFA’d players because they cannot develop league-average minor leaguers.

        This could have been covered-up over the last few years with an international spending spree to use the Yanks greatest resource in a system which favored the rich, but now with the international draft there is no advantage there either.

        so, the GM with budget authority should be called on the carpet for a crappy job

        • Jim Is A (Bored) Peckerhead says:

          Top picks = picks in the bottom 5 of the first round, if we even had any.

        • Cool Lester Smooth says:

          Who is this “GM with budget authority” you refer to?

          • mike says:

            Sir Biran…who whines about being overruled on financial matters (ie overpaying $ for players) because they blow up his budget

            • Cool Lester Smooth says:

              I’m not sure you know what you’re talking about, friend.

              He complains about being overruled on financial manners matters because they make it harder for him to operate within the budget established by the guys overruling him.

        • Robinson Tilapia says:

          “Irrespective of the “plan” or “injuries” or the grand strategy, the results speak for themselves, and the Yanks have had to overpay for retreads and a menagerie of DFA’d players because they cannot develop league-average minor leaguers.

          This could have been covered-up over the last few years with an international spending spree to use the Yanks greatest resource in a system which favored the rich, but now with the international draft there is no advantage there either.”

          Bullshit.

          Name me a team who’d come up with a stud to put in there when the third-string option at short got injured? Do you even remember the dreck Boston was throwing out in their starting lineup last season.

          AN INTERNATIONAL SPENDING SPREE! I’d make a Jesse Pinkman throwing money out his window joke, but I don’t do spoilers.

          • mike says:

            The Sox did have a third string option at Short – Iglesias, who likely was in back of Drew and XB on their depth chart

            • Robinson Tilapia says:

              A year ago today, they started Aviles at short and Ciriaco at third, and that was with some healthy pieces already returning, much like this year’s Yankees.

      • The Big City of Dreams says:

        and that people will be happy with what they are seeing a year from now.

        ———————-

        We’ve been hearing that for yrs though.

    • CP says:

      There have been injuries, which actually do concern me greatly, as I feel like guys have missed more time than they should have, too much reinjury occurring, etc.

      Slightly off topic, but the Yankees should use this as the response to A-Rod’s medical malpractice suit – “We weren’t being negligent or malicious, we’re just incompetent when it comes to injuries!”

  8. Jim James says:

    So now Hal is concerned about the lack of major league ready talent in the upper levels of the system, AWESOME. I’ll bet Hal & Hank were the kids who’d offer to cook dinner for the family & end up overpaying for crappy pizza from the only place that delivers in their area because they didn’t bother to check if they had any of the required ingredients at home & just assumed they did.

  9. LarryM FL says:

    At least the matter has come to an awareness. Now the Yankees may get some direction into the matter. Lets face it its luck too! Mike Trout was the Yankees choice before LAA chose him.

    The Yankees for the most part have used the farm system as chips to acquire veteran players. Now the WC and CBA have tightened their prior options.So farm system development is key and their behind the 8 ball.

  10. vin says:

    “I’m not sure any team gets less out of more from their system”

    The Mariners perhaps?

  11. brian says:

    Hey Hal, how bout taking a look in the mirror… you let one terrible signing (Igawa) dissuade you from chasing elite international talent for years..

    I don’t expect or even want the Yankees to go all in for EVERY bigtime cuban/japanese/d.r. etc. etc. player, but they haven’t gotten ANY of them… inexcusable

    • The Real Greg says:

      Was Hal responsible for Igawa?

    • Robinson Tilapia says:

      I made this point very late in another thread the other day, so I’ll pretty much repeat myself here:

      El Duque
      Contreras
      Irabu
      Matsui

      The Yankees aren’t behind on the curve here. They were trendsetters. For every Duque and Matsui, there was an Ariel Prieto and a Kaz Matsui as well.

      How quickly we forget what international players looked like before a couple of seasons of success from a handful of guys in the past two years.

      We zero in on Kei Igawa as the reason for everything. I’m not sure Kei Igawa means jack shit as far as the big picture on anything with this franchise.

      Maybe the advanced scouting of these guys has gotten better, leading to less duds. Maybe when we only look at, say, Aroldis Chapman forward, we’re not looking at the entire picture. Time will tell there.

      • ChrisS says:

        The big thing with IFA players (and with regards to the Yankees) is that they’re essentially additional draft picks. If the Yankees could buy additional picks in the annual draft, you can bet your ass that they would. If they’re not picking near the top of the draft, then they need to maximize their financial advantage and be in on every IFA.

        Bud’s dream is a worldwide draft (and he’s getting closer). To your point, there’ll be some duds of course, but the payoff is getting their hands on true top of the draft talent that they wouldn’t otherwise be close to. Which is also why they’re heavily invested in the Mexican league where they can still scoop up IFAs.

        • Robinson Tilapia says:

          I’m glad you brought up the Mexican league. Team signed a 19 year-old pitcher who could conceivably be on the radar within a couple of seasons, and they signed him for peanuts. So little chatter about things like this.

          I expect the team to do their due diligence on every IFA. I’ve found the prices ridiculous on some of these guys, even though a few have lived up to billing thus far, but that’s just me.

          My point is that the Yankees were signing international players with regularity before anyone else, and that the body of work of these players doesn’t just begin at these guys who have looked good over a couple of seasons.

          • ChrisS says:

            Oh yeah, they’ve been signing IFAs forever and day because they don’t have to draft them and the Yankees can afford to have permanent scouts in countries that other teams can only visit. But they got gunshy after Igawa, for whatever reason.

            IFAs are expensive because they’re worth it. There is no other way to trade money for additional draft picks. Some will hit, some will miss.

            • Robinson Tilapia says:

              The prices also went way, way up, though. Some of these guys have done well, but some of the pricetags, initally, have been cringe-worthy.

    • lightSABR says:

      Amen. The most inexplicable thing to me about the Yankees’ decisions the last few years has been their unwillingness to pursue Darvish, Cespedes, Puig, etc.

  12. CashmanNinja says:

    It’s about time ownership looked into this. I normally hate when ownership interferes with the front office, but this is getting ridiculous. We’re producing NOTHING of substance. We can crank out relievers like nobody’s business, but then what? Relievers are the most volatile position there is. There haven’t been many highly touted names who were called up that actually did anything. I won’t use Joba or Hughes as an example because they had the talent, but they were clearly rushed/messed around. Joba to the pen/rotation/pen/rotation/pen, while mixing in those stupid rules…and then having Phil in the pen for a bit and then the rotation. It just screws with guys. The same thing will happen to Phelps if he comes back from injury pitching well. The last “big” name was probably Austin Jackson, and I don’t think he’d have been half what he is now if he hadn’t been traded. We just suck at developing guys.

    The point of the matter is that the Yankees have been spending tons of money on these kids, but they run into a wall once they get past a certain level. The last time I checked the majors were a tad bit higher than single-A ball. Therefore we need guys who will *gasp* play well as they progress up the ladder. We have young guys with a boatload of talent, but we need them to begin to produce because we have no internal options right now. I hope Hal lights a fire under everyone’s asses because we need some minor league players, whether it’s for replacing our guys internally or using them as trade chips to get other guys.

    • Robinson Tilapia says:

      “We can crank out relievers like nobody’s business, but then what? Relievers are the most volatile position there is.”

      Let’s remember that cranking our relievers saves you from overpaying for supposed veteran guys who are just as volatile. I get your point, but let’s not knock developing relievers too much.

      • MannyGeee says:

        This, go ask Boston. They have been overpaying for mediocrity for many many years

        • Frank Costanza says:

          And the Yankees haven’t?

          • Lukaszek says:

            Not when it comes to relievers. The Yankees have had a great bullpen each year since 2009 (except 2010). We did overpay for Soriano, but obviously he wasn’t very “mediocre” when Mo got hurt last year. We also managed to get good production from very cheap guys; like Cory Wade/Lance Pendleton/Luis Ayala in 2011, and Clay Rapada/Cody Eppley in 2012

    • Mac says:

      Every team is looking for a bunch of amateurs who will turn into great MLB players. Very few of those guys are found outside the top 10-20 picks into the draft, though.

      Basically, it would be great if it were as simple as you’re making it out to be. It’s not, though. If you look around the league you’re not going to find too many teams with any more historical success in finding and turning out prospects than the Yankees. A few, sure.

  13. Jim Is A (Bored) Peckerhead says:

    Yeah man, why haven’t we done a better job at predicting injuries to Phelps, Nuno, Cervelli? Did he forget that we have Adam Warren wasting away in the bullpen? That it was probably Hal who decided that Vernon Wells was the external solution, when in reality, Mesa or Almonte(more injuries!) could have provided similar WAR via baserunning or defense, if not offense too? It was our FO who decided that Granderson was better than seeing what would become of Jackson and Kennedy.

    How about you see what you have and give them more than 1 game’s worth of opportunities if they fail? Half the reason we don’t have any minor league talent perform is because we don’t have the patience to sit through a 2-3 month struggle at the majors. Unless they’ve developed a pre-existing attachment as with Hughes and Joba.

    We all want a Manny Machado. But the O’s system is bare as can be now, and what happened to Matusz, Weiters, any of the other top 10 picks they had for 10 years? How about the Royals, who after hearing for years how wonderful their top end talent is, are finally at a point where they might win 85 games? You want to know why we’re ranked 10-15 year after year? Look at the 15 teams below us in the rankings. It drives me insane that people get so tunnel-visioned with the Yankees that they forget that rankings are all relative.

    Of course I’m not denying our lack of minor league talent. But it’s not unique to the Yankees, and at least we have other reasons as to why we haven’t developed it.

  14. Mac says:

    Hal needs to wait for his burritos to heat up instead of having a delayed reaction to previous burritos that never made it into his mouth. (There may be some issues, but it’s too late to be worrying about guys who haven’t made it recently. Everything in the org that ownership touches seems to turn to absolute shit, so I really hope they keep their hands out of the farm system. It’s actually run fairly well and I don’t want to see SteinLevine making draft decisions like they do veteran contract decisions.)

    While they’ve had a dry spell in recent years, it’s very tough to say they have a “lack of upper level minor league talent” if you know anything about the farm system. A huge chunk of their talent is in AA, which is the upper minors. (Sanchez, Austin, Heathcott, Williams, Flores…) They also have Murphy and Ramirez in AAA.

    Injuries have really exacerbated the recent lull as well. Banuelos was the top prospect going into last season and might be a piece of the rotation right now if healthy. Heathcott, Romine, and Adams were three of their better position prospects in what could have been the current generation of prospects reaching the majors and all lost significant development time to injuries. CoJo was hurt this season when he might have been able to provide some support, as were Mustelier and Garcia if you want to include them. The system’s crown jewel went for Pineda, who also got hurt. Zoilo was at least somewhat passable when called upon and even he got hurt. Fairly recent system products Cervelli and Nunez got hurt this season as well, when they could have potentially taken large roles on the team.
    It’s hard to say where the position guys would be today without the injuries (in Seattle for Adams, probably), but 3/5 of a starting rotation could have come from the recent prospect crop if Pineda and Banuelos were healthy and joining Nova in the rotation.

  15. sojuyankee says:

    Meetings are nice, how about some solutions, Hal!!!

  16. The Real Greg says:

    But when was the last time the Yankees developed a young stud star player? Only Cano in the last 10 years?

    • Jim Is A (Bored) Peckerhead says:

      You can say that for 80% of the teams in baseball.

      • The Real Greg says:

        Here comes the list:

        Mets: Harvey and Wheeler
        Angels: Trout
        Pirates: Marte and McCutchen
        Royals: Hosmer and Perez
        Rockies: Rosario
        Phillies: Brown
        Rays: Moore and Price
        Orioles: Machado
        Cardinals: Miller
        Dodgers: Puig and Kershaw
        D’Backs: Goldschmidt
        Giants: Posey and Sandoval
        Rangers: Profar, Andrus, Kinsler
        Astros: Castro
        Mariners: Seager

        Right now the only teams who don’t have a stud young prospect that they developed up are the Tigers, Brewers (Segura was an Angels prospect), Padres, Blue Jays, Reds (although Hamilton is coming) and the Yankees.

        • jjyank says:

          Some read suspect names on your list there.

          Are Brown and Seager really qualifying as “studs” right now? They have yet to have one full season of stud-like production. Rosario? He’s yet to crack a 110 wRC+ over a full season. Being a catcher helps, but is he a stud?

          If your going to count Kinsler for Texas, you need to count Cano for the Yankees. Kinsler debuted only one year after Cano. Seems like an arbitrary line to draw to make that point.

          • Jim Is A (Bored) Peckerhead says:

            Plus he’s ignoring the point. The Yankees draft 20+ every year.

            Compare us to similarly placed teams in the drafts, and I’ll pay more attention. It’s like comparing apples grown in Heaven to apples grown in the Sahara.

            • jjyank says:

              Right. McCutchen was drafted 11th overall. Posey was #5. Castro was 10th. Harvey was #7. Wheeler was #6. Hosmer was #3. I could go on, but I won’t.

        • Jim Is A (Bored) Peckerhead says:

          Ok Greg. Do you want me to tell you how many of them were top picks? Do you really? Are you that blind? You know how many top 5-10 picks the Yankees have had in the past 10 years? 0.

          0 many. Now tell me which players drafted in the 20+ range there are in that list.

          Nah I’ll do it for you. But I’m adding Gardner into the discussion if you’re including Kinsler. So the Yankees have 2.

          Mets: 0
          Angels: 0
          Pirates: 0
          Royals: 0 (Perez was an international signing, but ill give him to you, so 1)
          Rockies: Same deal as Perez, so 1
          Phillies: Yes, Brown, but lets wait a year before we crown him.
          Rays: Moore
          Orioles: 0
          Cardinals: Miller, but still was 19 and above the Yankees
          Dodgers: 0, Puig was not a product of their system
          DBacks: Goldschmidt
          Giants: Sandoval
          Rangers: Kinsler debuted in 2006. Andurs is meh. Profar was an IFA
          Astros: Oh please with Castro.
          Mariners: Again, please with Seager. Come back to me in a year.

          So the Yankees have developed Cano and Gardner, and arguably Austin Jackson. We have 3.

          • The Real Greg says:

            Trout was not a top ten pick. He was drafted just before the Yankees drafted.

            And I find draft position to be a very weak excuse for poor development. And I point to the St. Louis Cardinals as an indicator.

            • The Real Greg says:

              And in fact, I’m not talking about JUST the draft. I’m talking in general. International signings are included.

              • Jim Is A (Bored) Peckerhead says:

                And yet you’re ignoring Cano, Gardner, Austin Jackson, Ian Kennedy, Zach McCallister, Mark Melancon, Melky Cabrera, David Robertson.

                • The Real Greg says:

                  Gardner is not a stud. I’m sorry. He’s a solid player, but he’s not a stud.

                  Melky had some help to become a stud.

                  Ian Kennedy had one big season and then crashed, Kind of like Phil Hughes in a sense.

                  McCallister has a chance.

                  The Yankees do develop stud relivers, especially right handed. I will give them that 100%. Robertson, Melancon, Clippard, and Claiborne might continue the tradition.

                • The Real Greg says:

                  And Cano I did mention in the original post.

            • jjyank says:

              Why is it a weak excuse? If the Yankees had a Machado type talent available to them in the draft, we probably wouldn’t be having this conversation.

              And no, Greg, throwing the Caridnals out there doesn’t prove your point.

              • The Real Greg says:

                I’m not saying that it isn’t a factor, but it shouldn’t be used as a crutch.

              • Jim Is A (Bored) Peckerhead says:

                It actually proves everyone else’s point.

                There are going to be teams outside of 2 standard deviations in any random sample. 95% are within 2, 5% are outside. The cardinals make up 3.33% of teams. It’s almost perfect.

            • Jim Is A (Bored) Peckerhead says:

              Oh my god. Why do I talk to you.

              Yes, Trout was 25th, I’m mistaken.

              “And I find draft position to be a very weak excuse for poor development. ”

              This is the bullshittest bullshit that you have ever bullshitted. For real. What a fucking load of shit.

              The Cardinals are one team. One. One example in all of baseball. 1/30. 1. One. Singular. Uno. One. The smallest of all integer based sample sizes. The team that proves that there are examples outside of 1-2 standard deviations. A perfect result of a random sampling of 30 teams and the prospects they’ve developed.

              Good God. I’m ignoring your inane asshattery. Which I should have done earlier.

              • Robinson Tilapia says:

                Why people bother with Greg and Eddard is beyond me.

                I completely read over anything that begins with “The Real Greg” at this point. I’ll give an amused look over whatever Eddard has to say, and will then predict the opposite of how he claims a game will go.

                They’re the gunk in the drain clogging up the sink. I’d rather have more dalelama on here, even.

                • Jim Is A (Bored) Peckerhead says:

                  dalelama is at least easy to ignore. He doesn’t try to make sense.

                  Greg tries, which makes it immensely frustrating that he fails so often.

            • Mac says:

              Cardinals are an exception. Would be great to be the very best in recent history, but it’s not a realistic expectation.

              Your list is a joke. Completely arbitrary definition of “stud” that blurs the line between unproven prospect, young breakout player, and established star.

              You’re also ignoring the extreme volatility of the whole thing. If next year the Yankees have two guys become solid contributors (say two of a Romine/Murphy, Adams, and Banuelos), suddenly they rocket up the rankings. If the season after that Austin, Williams and Sanchez contribute… suddenly the Yankees might be the best at “developing prospects” in all of MLB for recent history. The volatility involved is just really extreme. Your whole point literally comes down to having one guy become a “stud” or not. If you get one “stud” and nothing else, is that better than getting 3 contributors and no stud? Just depends.

              • The Real Greg says:

                That’s actually a damn good question. I would think it would depend on how your team is currently constructed.

                As constructed right now, the Yankees need a few young studs because of the age on the team

                Teams like the Red Sox and Braves have the stud players in place and are looking to fill out the roster with quality.

                • Mac says:

                  I don’t think your roster matters too much. Very few teams have line-ups where they have so many good, affordable players that they can’t use multiple quality contributors. And those teams that meet that criteria can always trade the prospects.

                  Basically, it’s a case by case consideration. That was my point. You’ll take one Mike Trout over three of just about anyone but especially three guys who barely qualify as contributors. You might not take one 5 WAR guy over three 3 WAR guys, though.

              • Jim Is A (Bored) Peckerhead says:

                And no one is saying we’re the Cardinals.

                We’re saying that 10-15 is a fair ranking.

                • The Big City of Dreams says:

                  We’re saying that 10-15 is a fair ranking.
                  ——————

                  With not a lot to show for it.

                  • Mac says:

                    How many teams do have a lot to show for recent farm production?

                    Very few. The last few years have been a dry spell for the Yankees, but other teams aren’t generally cranking out tons of young talent. If the Yankees turn out two quality MLB players in the next two years, suddenly they’ll be towards the top of the league in these reactionary fan player development rankings.

                    It’s more about having a good system in place that turns out talent consistently. I do believe that the Yankees have built that. Consistently average or better in rankings, solid results until the last couple of years (which as I’ve argued I think is largely an injury fluke thing), and good depth throughout the system.

                    • The Big City of Dreams says:

                      I understand what you’re saying but I just don’t see it that way. I see a system they’ve been crowing about for yes yielding below average results. The do a great job with relievers and that can’t be ignored

            • jason says:

              Yankees should have traded up and grabbed Trout!!

            • The Big City of Dreams says:

              And I find draft position to be a very weak excuse for poor development.

              —————-

              Exactly. If they drafted well and had players turn about to be good productive player the Yankees would get praised for finding gems in the draft.

        • Cool Lester Smooth says:

          You didn’t even list all the teams in the MLB…

          • The Real Greg says:

            You’re right.

            Twins: Arcia
            Nats: Harper
            White Sox: Sale

            • The Real Greg says:

              A’s: Cespedes and Griffin

            • Cool Lester Smooth says:

              Okay, let’s just establishe a moratorium right now on calling someone a “young star stud player” until they amass at least 5 career WAR.

              Also, AJ Griffin is a 25 year old with a higher FIP in the Coliseum than Hughes has in Yankee Stadium.

            • Jim Is A (Bored) Peckerhead says:

              I think putting Arcia and Sale/Harper in the same breath might be reason enough for you to stop, Greg.

        • Cool Lester Smooth says:

          Also: LOL Jason Castro.

      • toad says:

        So what?

        The Yankees’ big advantage is what it always been – money. The problem is figuring out how to use that edge intelligently. If you do that, what 80% of the teams have is irrelevant.

        My opinion – only that – is that they have not figured out how best to use money for scouting and development. Maybe they didn’t think they had to for a long time, but now they do. Stay under $189 million if you want, but use the money saved on scouting and development. No luxury tax there.

    • matt b says:

      I think the positional talent developed is indeed slim – and while I run optimistic and haven’t done a full survey of the league, my strong instinct is that the Yankees positional player development has been significantly below “league average” if you will.

      Part of that is no doubt the product of late first round picks, which have generally been used on pitching (pitching development, I think is a whole other topic, though the Yanks have done that poorly too, at least in terms of starters). Part of the story is left to be told (open book on the currentSanchez/Mason/Slade/Austin/Murphy crew, snd I will say that I loved them used two first rounders on college position players, understanding you don’t draft for position in baseball generally, the club still has plenty of interesting players at the low levels, what the need is a more immediate injection of more polished guys who you’re going to find out about more quickly).

      But while there’s only one been Cano, they developed Ajax, who’s a terrific player. They developed Gardner,who’s a pretty darn good player. I suppose one can also toss in Melky, to the extent one feels like he’s been a good and impactful player and considering his circumstances).

      Believe a poor job has been internationally, particularly with Cuba. While agreeing with the general sentiment that so many of these guys, you have no idea what you’re getting, the truly elite, your Cespedes, Puigs, Solers (and noting the the former are different from the later in being ready for the Show from day- and also that Yoenis’s second go round hasn’t been nearly as impressive), those are the kinds of deals the Yanks ought to have been making,before austerity, taking a long term chance for a lower AAV. I’ve loved Soler’s deal from the moment he signed it, whether he develops, we’ll see, but that market is still a place where with great scouting and number crunching you can find true free agent value, as opposed to the MLB guys who now all get to free agency post-age 30).

      Ha, sorry for the rambling response, very slow and hungover day at the office.

      • Mac says:

        They haven’t done much of anything the last few years, but in recent history I don’t think they’re much below league average. This season there are 91 position players under 30 who qualify (3 per team). 86 have been at least replacement level, 73 at least one win over replacement, and 54 at least 2 wins above. The Yankees developed 2 of the top 41. If Cervelli’s healthy they’re probably right around average with 3 guys on the list.

        Basically, my point is that developing prospects into good MLB players is rare.

  17. The Real Greg says:

    And the amount of injuries is insane. Hensley (out for the season) Judge and Clarkin (can’t even get on the field because of injury)

    Add those to all the other big injuries (Heathcott, Banuelos, Pineda, Romine etc.) and it spells out that this organization can’t keep young players healthy

    • Mac says:

      Not even sure if Judge and Clarkin were in the org when they got hurt.

      Injuries have a lot to do with luck. Unless you know at least a tiny little bit about their training habits vs. other teams you have absolutely no ground to stand on in claiming the org is at fault.

    • Jim Is A (Bored) Peckerhead says:

      But are injuries really a sign of a terrible minor league system? It could easily be bad luck. I have a hard time thinking the Yankees only target people who every other team has identified as an injury risk. A few high-risk guys, sure. But it’s not like Banuelos had any abnormal concerns.

      • The Real Greg says:

        Not if it was an injury here and there and few setbacks.

        But the numbers with the Yankees are off the charts. Something has to be amiss.

        • Mac says:

          Nothing actually has to be amiss. That’s just your own speculation.

          With the fact that you’re comparing radically different injuries sustained in radically different ways at radically different points throughout the system… your speculation is probably wrong. A couple of busted ankles on opposite ends of slides several levels apart, a TJS in AAA, a shoulder injury in MLB ST, a chronic back issue in AA, a couple of tweaks right after signing probably at the Tampa complex… there is absolutely no pattern here. Just a bunch of guys getting hurt.

    • Vincent Vega says:

      Clarkin pitched yesterday BTW

  18. Eddard says:

    Good. I’d like to see Hal take a more active role in operations. We know he can make good moves as he did with Soriano. A change needs to be made at the top.

    They don’t develop everyday ballplayers. The best one they’ve developed since Robbie Cano they traded to Detroit. They also don’t develop starting pitchers. Best one they’ve developed since Andy is Ivan Nova. Hughes failed, Joba failed, where are Betances and Banuelos?

    • Mac says:

      It’s mind blowing how reactionary you are. Ownership makes one good move after dozens of terrible moves and suddenly you want them making more moves?

      • Robinson Tilapia says:

        I don’t get why people respond to Eddard in a serious manner anymore.

        • Jim Is A (Bored) Peckerhead says:

          Winter is coming.

          • jjyank says:

            I’m reading the books, and I’ll be honest. I find Eddard Stark difficult to take seriously thanks to this guy.

            • ropeadope says:

              How far along are you? Four down, one to go for me (plus whatever Martin churns out down the road – two for sure, possibly more). Anyway, try not to let RAB Eddard impact your view of ASoIaF Eddard.

              • Jim Is A (Bored) Peckerhead says:

                Four was easily the worst. Five was way, way easier to get through.

                • ropeadope says:

                  I’ve actually (greatly) enjoyed all four books thus far read, but I do understand the fan base is largely disenchanted with book 4 (and book 5 to a somewhat lesser extent).

                  • Cool Lester Smooth says:

                    I liked 4 and 5 too, but I understand why people would be pissed about having to wait 5 and 6 years for them.

                    • ropeadope says:

                      Oh, absolutely no question about that. Guess I was lucky in that (like many) the HBO series was my introduction to the world of Westeros, and I was able to grab the first four books immediately. I would’ve been climbing the walls waiting 5+ years between books. I’ve been delaying diving into book 5 until I (hopefully) get an indication that book 6 is close at hand. But I know it may still be a few years away.

              • jjyank says:

                I just started, actually. A little more than halfway through the first book.

                • ropeadope says:

                  Well, you have a lot of great reading ahead of you. I won’t divulge any spoilers, but you’ll entirely understand my views on Big Stein and the Yankee farm system by the midpoint of book 3 (lol, not really, but it’ll give me time to think up an answer for your post down the page).

    • Jim Is A (Bored) Peckerhead says:

      Banuelos is on his way. Patience.

      You know who else was a highly touted prospect and had TJS? Dylan Bundy. Or like, 400 other pitchers. It’s not a death sentence.

    • Bryan says:

      There is so much fail in this argument. The Yankees took care of all the development for Ian Kennedy, turned Hughes into an MLB caliber pitcher (who almost pitched a no hitter at age 21 until he broke his leg…jesus injuries), the big league club ruined Joba Chamberlain (exacerbated by an overall idiotic fanbase compounded by idiotic jouurnalists and sports analysts, have churned out Ivan Nova, David Phelps (a higher round college pitcher no less), Warren (who is considered equivalent to Phelps), and have a number of interesting SP in the pipeline. They are averaging essentially one MLB caliber SP a season for about 5-6 years now. Just because they aren’t apparently CY winners, or not given the time to succeed in the big league club is not the fault of the developers. It is the fault of stupid people who take every failure to heart, instead of accepting some failure as part of the growing process.

      Also, if the Yankees system is so bad, what does that make the Pirates system? The worst the world has ever seem?

      • Robinson Tilapia says:

        It’s Eddard.

        He exists for the sole purpose of having you spend time writing this retort, only to say either exactly the same thing, or the complete opposite, in about an hour.

      • Frank Costanza says:

        And Kennedy is what, exactly? Is he some shining example of player development? And Phil Hughes is anything but an MLB caliber STARTING pitcher, I’m sorry. Just because he’s technically pitching in MLB doesn’t mean he should be. He’s one of the worst starting pitchers in the league any way you slice it. And he didn’t “almost pitch” a no hitter. He pitched 6.1 innings of no-hit ball before injuring his hamstring instead of “breaking his leg.”

        And the fact that Joba Chamberlain can’t even handle a mom-up role in the bullpen is nobody’s fault but Joba Chamberlain. He’s been in the league for a while now and has had multiple opportunities to seize the role the Yankees envisioned for him as a future closer. The “Joba Rules” are long gone. He can’t fucking pitch. And now none of the “big three” will be future Yankees.

        Don’t even give me Adam Warren and David Phelps and Ivan Nova. Every organization worth a DAMN has those kings of players in the pipeline. They’re everywhere. The Yankees shouldn’t be applauded for producing the bare minimum. Don’t give me CY winners… give me consistent above average MLB pitchers. Any day now I’m sure…

        Your argument sucks a ton of ass for someone critiquing other comments. The Yankees player development system is decidedly below average. People here need to deal with it. Case closed.

        • Mac says:

          No, those kind of guys do not grow on trees.

          If you look at Ps under 30 the past five years, the Yankees have developed #39, #47, #73, #82, and #110. So the Yankees P development has actually been above average. Especially if you excluded top 10 picks and aces who came up forever ago but had just a season or two under 29 in that time period.

          But let’s pretend, instead, that is a P isn’t a Cy Young winner he’s a bust! Great plan! Irony being, of course, that IPK has finished 4th in the CY voting…

    • VT Yankee Fan says:

      CMW produced 15.3 WAR in his first 4 years with the team. That’s a hell of a lot more than they have gotten out of Nova.

    • JLC 776 says:

      Well of course Hal is going to take a more active role. He’s trying to sell the team as soon as he comes under $189.

  19. pat says:

    Ajax, Melancon, McAllister, Kennedy, Coke are all decent/good regulars. They’re just not on our team anymore.

  20. matt b says:

    I suppose this is only tangentially related to the topic, and it’s an awfully small sample size, so not about to declare a success story. But looking at Austin Romine, and just using June 1 as an admittedly arbitrary cut off point.

    Triple slash (if folks know who to isolate .wOBA and wRc+ for season segments, please point me to the tool, would love it:

    .300/.350/.426

    And since July 1:

    .347/.396/.521

    Now that entire sample consists of 77 PA and 70 AB, and from July 1 on, you’re talking 53 PA and 46 AB. No evidence from anywhere in his past to suggest the July on number is sustainable, but the June on, number, pretty in line with MiLB production and that’s a triple slash of a starting catcher.

    I had sort of written Romine’s Yankee career off when he was called up when Cervy went down and it was clear he wasn’t ready (or perceived to be ready) defensively by Joe or by the staff, and looked absolutely overwhelmed at the plate. You figure, that’s tough, kid will be lucky to see 200 AB, won’t get his reps, and (on the positive, you can never have enough), clearly was becoming passed by Murphy as the next potential in-house solution at catcher.

    But I’m pleased to see the kid make an adjustment. He’s clearly capable of hanging in there at the plate. That’s as far as I’ll take it before I see more. But I feel decently confident you’re looking at a guy who, IF he can stay healthier projects to an .ops in the .700-.750 range, not the .550-.600 range. And that’s worth noting.

    The season long triple slash, of course, isn’t much to look at:

    .231/.278/.333 (.272 wOBA, 65 wRC+) but consider where he was at the end of May:

    .103/.125/.154

    Nice job by the kid to make something of his year, being tossed into a tough spot, and starting to contribute a bit in meaningful games.

    Way too much analysis on my part for a season that’s comprised 118 PA, but feel like it’s flown under the radar and is worth watching moving forward.

    • Jim Is A (Bored) Peckerhead says:

      I think no one actually believed he was a .179 OPS guy. Maybe Girardi.

      If he could be a .675-.725 OPS guy moving forward, hell yeah that’d be awesome. Especially with good D.

      • Robinson Tilapia says:

        If Girardi thought that, he’d be playing him every day!

        *snare*

        Seriously, though, good for Romine. I do hope some eyes are being opened here.

      • Mac says:

        I don’t really understand why a reasonable commenter would buy into this meme.

        Cashman has said several times that he, not Girardi, decides a player’s role on the team.

        It was probably not Girardi’s decision in the first place, but not making a guy starter from day 1 when he’s struggling like hell doesn’t mean you don’t think he can develop into a decent player down the road.

        • Jim Is A (Bored) Peckerhead says:

          It was really meant tongue in cheek.

        • matt b says:

          Oh for sure, I most certainly wasn’t in the camp that Romine should’ve been handed the keys to the staff on day one, esp. given how lost he looked offensively. I also agree that esp. since Joe G. came on, Cash’s role in determining players’ roles – at least general parameters – have increased.

          And I should clarify, I don’t think that them calling him this year meant they’d written him off – though my belief is probably still that they should’ve found a retread vet to catch every fourth game and let Romine get more reps – a few months probably – before calling up Romine and giving him a chance at splitting the starting duties.

          Also a very good point below, that the notion of Murphy having passed Romine is probably more of a fan construction (that I’ve bought into it, and somewhat foolishly, I like Murphy, I think he’s clearly getting better, but I’m not banking 10 years of MLB success on one big jump in the minors).

          What I’d love to know is how the piching staff regards Romine, Cause what I do believe is true is that even though Stewie’s defensive excellence sometimes does allude me visually, I think the starters like throwing to him. Would love to know if there’s increased confidence in tossing to Romine,

          Cause to take your point one step further, if the Yanks don’t go outside for catching help (and for me, if you’re not signing McCann-and I would, in a heartbeat, esp. if you have Alex’s money, unless you have a true desire to overpay Salty) you’re looking in-house again – in my perfect world Murphy and Romine would share the job on a close to 50/50 basis (though I do have a feeling they’ll go ahead and re-up Stewie).

    • Mac says:

      I know a lot of fans made it, but I don’t think the assumption that coming up to be a back-up C meant Romine had been passed on the depth chart by Murphy was at all founded. He may have been passed on a hypothetical org chart, I don’t know. I don’t think coming up as a BUC was evidence of it though.

      Historically it’s actually pretty common for a prospect to come up as a back-up and be broken in slowly at the MLB level, especially for a C. Being called up to catch actual, meaningful MLB games is really quite a vote of confidence.

  21. ropeadope says:

    Best decision Hal ever made (and is ever likely to make) was in cryopreserving George until medical science catches up and has the capacity to reverse his ills. Won’t happen overnight, but with George eventually back in charge and taking up the reins, the Yankees long term prospects will be encouraging.

    • jjyank says:

      I find this comment amusing given the subject matter. Having George run things again would help the minor league system how, exactly?

      • ropeadope says:

        The minor league system is not part of the overall organization? Please note the terms “won’t happen overnight,” and “long term prospects.” Please don’t misunderstand, I’m quite happy you find the comment amusing.

        • jjyank says:

          ?

          The post is regarding the quality of the farm system. Your comment seems to be saying that you want George running things again. I’m saying that George would trade Gary Sanchez for Raul Ibanez, or something equally dumb.

          • Robinson Tilapia says:

            Picture the most average-y pitcher in baseball. Trade Rafael DePaula for him. No, not know. Make that trade after DePaula’s had three good MLB starts.

            Rinse. Repeat.

  22. mike says:

    Axisa is dead right on this one. The Yankees have no first rate prospects in the entire system (maybe Sanchez) and haven’t produced any consistent quality players since — I don’t know, Brett Gardner? The team needs to spend more on international talent. Where were the Yankees on Chapman, Puig, Cespedes?

    • Mac says:

      Your comment is fairly contradictory. The spending part is more likely to be on Hal than it is the guys he’s talking to.

  23. Frank Costanza says:

    I love logging on and seeing a post like this when so many who comment on this site defend the Yankees player development system and shit on those who question it.

  24. eric says:

    Hal has to be looking at the Rays, Orioles & thinking why cant we do this….but remember they had 10+ years of picking 1st (or top 5)…that being said Yankees need an overhaul t what their “program” is re: minors. Its got to be an actual pipeline nowadays rather than a hype machine for potential big money player trades

    • Bryan says:

      Why can’t we be the Rays?

      1) They sucked for numerous years. Therefore they were given solid picks for years. Where do you think guys like Longo and Price and many of their other top tier guys came from?

      2) Given how little people actually watch the team, their players are given a chance to *gasp* fail! David Prices first year in the bigs he had an ERA of 4.42. That’s above where Hughes was in his age 24 season (his first full season as a starter). Yet you heard no one freaking out over his future or longing for him to return to the pen.

      3) Outside of Longoria what solid All Star caliber players have they developed?

      The Orioles were irrelevant for years. What the hell makes you think the Yanks should look at them and say, we can do that too! Do you want the Yanks to have a losing record for 14 plus years too?

      • matt b says:

        +1 on all these.

        I like that you frame not as indictment of (or irrational praise for) the Yankee system, but simply pointing to the fact that while it doesn’t explain the totality of their success, the Rays were awful forever, and yeah, as a result, picked up the cream of the crop. They’ve done a very good job of developing pitching – really an exceptionally good job (not always, but since the Friedman/Madden regime has in place for sure) – but fact is, vis-a-vis most clubs, they developed players who had significantly enhanced probabilities of succeeded (know there’s been empirical work done on this, even the true topline escapes me, but to the effect that the draft ain’t no crapshoot, and that the top of the first round has achieved considerably more. success).

        I think your second point has some merit, though with the Yanks I’d suggest it relates primarily to Joba, who will always be a mystery to me – I don’t know if it would have worked, seeing what the guy has let himself turn into now, lord knows, and I’ve never, ever, heard a legit answer as to whether the Yanks thought a shoulder issue made him more conducive to the pen – but how Joba wasn’t given every conceivable chance to start, I’ll never understand. Why go through it all, I don’t just mean ;08, but ’09, when, even though clearly not the same guy as prior to that night in Texas, he was an effective, above league aVerage starter in the AL East pretty much up to the moment he started hitting new territory innings wise, and the Yanks pulled the ridic 3 inning start bullshit Even then, you come into 2010, and you’ve already decided (ha, on the basis on that time that he allegedly threw a goodchange) that Hughes would fill out the rotation (sliding in between Javy, a deal I acually liked but thought was overkill, Joba and Phil should have been both in the rotation).

        Hughes, I’d argue, has been given the chance to fail, and while he’s had his moments, he’s largely failed.

        And I guess on point three, assume you’re sticking to positional talent, as obviously they develop all-star caliber pitching. Position players, agreed, reasonably thin. Zobrist, though he spent little time in the TB system, was with the Astros org, spent a bit of time in Tampa’s farm and right to MLB. Jennings is a nice player, though certainly not a consistent all-star type, yet. Bossman Jr. had his moments. But yeah, it’s not like the lineup they run out there is bursting full of youthful homegrown Rays.

        • Bryan says:

          I really wanted Bossman to succeed. I always expected him to be the next big thing. Sucks that he cannot figure out how to hit offspeed pitches.

    • Robinson Tilapia says:

      Baltimore has flushed more starting pitching talent down the toilet the Yankees could ever dream of doing.

      Suddenly, a season of Manny Machado fixes everything?

      • Jim Is A (Bored) Peckerhead says:

        For real.

        And Markakis has become a slap hitting, poor D outfielder. Wieters is fine, but he’s not a star. Tillman and Adam Jones were Mariners guys. Matusz is a relief arm. Chris Davis is a Texas gift. Jim Johnson is good, but he’s a reliever, which diminishes the shine a bit.

      • The Big City of Dreams says:

        He doesn’t fix anything but that is a big chip. The Yankees started started their turn over of the farm yrs ago and the results have been mixed and that’s being generous.

        • Mac says:

          The point is that the Orioles were only able to acquire Machado because they had the 3rd worst record in MLB. If the Yankees were awful for a decade, they might manage at least one Machado. Who knows, they might not suck as incredibly badly as the Orioles and manage more than one with all those high picks.

          • The Big City of Dreams says:

            True but at the same time you have to work with what you get. Yrs ago Cashman fought for control of the farm. The results have be so so to say the least.

    • JLC 776 says:

      I sincerely hope Hal isn’t that reactionary. It wouldn’t surprise me if he is, if it’s Steinbrenner DNA or something, but glancing at the iceberg that is the 2013 Orioles is ignoring the 15 year of ineptitude under the water.

      When your organization has been hopeless for that long, you’re talking about something that changes the psyche of the fan base. An entire generation has grown up knowing nothing but failure. Expectations are non-existent. You cease to exist as a relevant franchise.

      Now imagine that happening in the Bronx? Because it did, not too long ago. And it happened in large part because George Steinbrenner was completely insane.

      I hope and pray Hal isn’t that bad.

  25. Al says:

    gardy has been pretty good, at least

  26. gbyanks says:

    The main issue is how far away these guys are. If everything goes right for sanchez hes still probably 2 years away. Heathcott was hitting AA pitch for about a month before injury so maybe he starts in AAA next year. Almonte career path so far shows me he needs time to adjust to the new level, so im still thinking hes a real option next year. The few mlb players we have produced were traded: Jackson,Mcallister,Melancon. Not saying those guys would be the saviors but we got nothing back for mcallister and melancon and losing mo would hurt alot less if we had melancon and hughes wouldnt be starting if we still had mcallister.

    • matt b says:

      Agreed, and while I know the consensus philosophy is that you never approach the MLB draft looking for particular positional needs (and generally I support that), loved watching them grab two college positional guys in the first round. Now I don’ know if they work out, and I don’t think Billy Beane invented the world, but I always liked his arguments back in the day for drafting more college gays – more data = more knowledge. Axisa loves high school arms with a ton of projectability, as do I, but for me, running a draft is a bit like designing an investment portfolio. You’re gonna allocate across asset categories, some are going to have lower expected returns but less volatility, others its the inverse. And it’s about finding the optimal balance between the two – and importantly, maintaining that balance, by reallocating – you need both, you can’t have a system where all the buzz is about guys still filling out and are just starting AA (and those are the top guys) – need some guys who you can say with a good degree of confidence (even then, you’re bound to get plenty of fails) that they can make valuable contributions to the big club in the near term – if they don’t project astronomically. Ain’t never, unless you’re the Yanks of the 2006 playoffs (and we know how that went) gonna field a club where 1-9 are homegrown, five tool studs.

  27. Evan says:

    I think the issue is the Yankees failing to take advantage of their financial advantage. Their is no limit on the amount of money that can be spent on scouting and player development. Therefore, as the team with the most money there is no reason why the Yankees shouldn’t have one of the best scout and development systems. They can afford to steal people from the Rays staff and pay them twice as much without blinking. It is one of the few places where the league has not put in any financial limits and therefore the Yankees need to figure out what they need to do to put the people in place to have a system that is equivalent to the Cards or Rays.

    They appear to have an issue with thinking they are smarter than everyone else. The Culver and Bichette picks both look like huge busts. Those were picks that were panned by the “experts.” Sure first round picks don’t always work out but when you go off the reservation with the pick you better be right.

    • kenthadley says:

      Good points. They bailed on IFA’s while they weren’t under any caps. And there’s been too many high picks that can’t even get out of A ball….add Aune and a few more. It was one thing for Eric Duncan to flame out by AAA, but it’s hard to understand taking a first or second round pick and they can’t hit or pitch their way out of low A.

    • matt b says:

      Yeah, I’m gonna +1 here too, the Yanks’ recent track record in respect to first round picks isn’t what you’d hope it would be (even the Chamberlain-Kennedy year, that produced real value for the team, but that’s the highlight). i have irrational love for this years’ three first rounders, I love the composition, love the scouting reports on the guys, here’s hoping.

  28. CashmansFakeIDsAndBackAlleyAbortionsShop says:

    Hold all the “meetings” you want, Hal… Just make sure Brian Cashman is never blamed for anything…

    No matter how may horrific contracts he hands out. No matter how many of his “blue chip” prospects crater. No matter how far the Yankees fall. No matter how many pieces of dumpster crap Cashman is forced to sign just to fill out a roster…

    Just remember… It’s never Cashman’s fault and he never gets fired. After all, he “knows how to handle the NY media.” … As long as he can do that, who cares how shitty he is at doing his, you know, ACTUAL JOB!

    • Bryan says:

      Which horrific contract is he to be blamed for? Tex’s? He helped win us a title. Not to mention we really did need that 1b. It looks rough now, but Tex’s regression was something no one expected. Hindsight is bullshit in this scenario. Does he get blamed for Arod’s? What was he to do? Say no? I’d have loved for you to try and take care of that one.

      He didn’t sign Ichiro. The Wells move was brilliant…if used correctly. The Yanks will owe Wells no money next year. Not a dollar. Which means we have more money to spend on someone else.

      You blame him for things he could not have done. He desn’t do the drafting. He is stuck in a perpetual sellers market where teams actively try to give the Yanks the shaft. He is expected to turn every hand he is dealt into a royal flush when the cards given him are a 2,7,k,a,4

      Good luck making gold from that.

    • CashmansFakeIDsAndBackAlleyAbortionsShop says:

      “Which horrific contract is he to be blamed for? Tex’s? He helped win us a title…”
      ====•==••============================
      $86 million for AJ Burnett
      $46 million for Kei Igawa
      $39 million for Carl Pavano
      $17 million for Kyle Farnsworth
      $32 million for Jose Contreras
      $21 million for Jaret Wright
      $8 million for Pedro Feliciano

      Is that enough??? Or do you need more???

    • BFDeal says:

      I bet you enjoy blumpkins.

  29. The Real Greg says:

    I should explain my definition of stud. When I say stud I’m talking about a player who provides a positive impact on a team at a young age and who provides a major sense of hope for a franchise’s future.

    • The Real Greg says:

      So Gardner, while being a good player, does not instill a sense of hope for the Yankees future. People are still worried about the future.

      And I do understand that a lot of these stud players are drafted high. But they could easily flame out as well. Take Brien Taylor and his stupid decision making.

      • Jim Is A (Bored) Peckerhead says:

        Lol. Rockies aren’t worried about the future? Giants aren’t? Orioles aren’t? Royals aren’t?

        Every team is worried about the future. Every single team. Go have some fun on the Cardinals boards, or the Sox boards, or the A’s boards, or the Rangers boards. Which is why “worry/hope for the future” is dumb.

        • The Real Greg says:

          I mean worry in sense of legitimate concern. Every team does worry about the future but not as much as the Yankees and Blue Jays are.

          Royals have just started to see their young talent play well. They’re over .500 for the latest date since God knows when.

          Orioles ended a playoff drought last year and are in contention this year.

    • Jim Is A (Bored) Peckerhead says:

      Oh good. Subjective. I’m shocked.

    • Mac says:

      This is a meaningless definition.

      Among other things, this is not the NBA. One player cannot make your future. The Ms had Felix, Cliff Lee, and a still good Ichiro and were terrible. The Rangers had A-Rod in his prime and were terrible.
      You should not be looking for your team to have one guy that gives you hope for the future. That is a mistake.

      What you’re ending up doing is just throwing any shiny names you can find out there. Some of the names you’ve listed are just truly laughable. Others were consensus #1 overall picks that it’s likely 30 out of 30 teams would have drafted #1 overall (Harper specifically).

      There is no value in this exercise.

  30. Mike HC says:

    Huh? There isn’t ongoing discussion about stuff like this? Didn’t ownership overrule Cashman and trade away a prospect for Soriano? This story really doesn’t make all that much sense to me.

    • Mac says:

      Not that I know, but I don’t get the impression that the Steinbrenners are all that involved in the day to day operations. I’m sure that there are on going discussions among Cashman, Newman, Opp, etc.

  31. CashmansFakeIDsAndBackAlleyAbortionsShop says:

    “The talent is there and is progressing. They just needed it now. It will be ready the 2nd half of next year and into 2015.”
    =============================================
    I recall hearing that about “the Killer B’s” and Co. 18 months ago… Of course, they were supposed to be here NOW. Come to think of it, weren’t Joba and Phil supposed to be the cost-effective anchors of the top of this Yankees rotation like two YEARS ago?!

    Oh my! How scary it’s gonna be for the rest of baseball when Cashman’s Yankees have that pair of stud aces, Joba and Phil, on the cheap and under team control. Just think how much money that’ll free up for the lineup! What good times those are going to be.

    But let’s just forget about all of those (and the endless list of other prospect flops) and focus on the NEXT batch of Brian Cashman’s A-ball magic beans… I’m sure it’ll be different… THIS time!

    “Those who fail to learn from the past, are condemned to repeat it.”

    • Mac says:

      You don’t do much prospect watching do you? It’s a game of failure across baseball.

      • CashmansFakeIDsAndBackAlleyAbortionsShop says:

        A game of failure? If by that you mean MOST prospects don’t pan out, you are, of course, correct.

        That doesn’t mean it’s okay to have a naked system that produces next to nothing. Look at what the Rangers farm system has produced for the last 5+ years and it’s still doing it. Look at the Rays.

        How is it that the franchise with the greatest resources BY A MILE can’t put together a quality scouting and development program?

        Now, is Brian Cashman directly RESPONSIBLE for those failings? No he’s not. But he IS directly ACCOUNTABLE for them.

    • BFDeal says:

      If your goal today was to look like an ignorant, uninformed, asshole, then congrats, mission accomplished.

  32. Dan says:

    Heads need to roll this offseason. Do you really want the same cast of characters messing with what should be a top 10 system coming off of 3 first round picks? Already it looks like last years top prospects are stuck in the mud at AA.

    • Bryan says:

      3 picks should not make or break the system. This year has been a disaster due to injuries. We still have a good amount of talent. Probably at or around top 12 talent wise. Guys like Mason, Slade, and Austin are all solid prospects that could end up being MLB players. One rough season in the minors should not spell disaster for either of them. Combine that with Manny Banuelos coming off TJ surgery…a surgery that pitchers are now VOLUNTARILY having when they have no issues because it is now so successful.

      Those 3 picks should combine with those I mentioned above to give us a good, better than average core of players to build around. We don’t have the Cardinals system. No one else does. Sorry.

  33. dkidd says:

    why isn’t hal meeting with the medical staff?

  34. Fernando says:

    Probably already mentioned in the 200 comments, but Abraham Almonte was contributing until he was injured.

    Yankees need to hire whoever runs the Cardinals drafts. They always seem to have plenty of contributors from their system, even though they draft low. Guys like Garcia, Lynn, Shelby Miller, Matt Carpenter, John Jay, David Freese, Yadier Molina, Allen Craig, etc. Plus more guys in the pipeline like Kolten Wong, Oscar Taveras, Michael Wacha etc.

  35. EndlessMike says:

    Fire Damon Oppenheimer already.He’s horrible and that Gosuke Katoh pick is basically Dante Bichette jr 2.0.

    The Yankees have to either get some of these Cubans who would have been better in this ballpark or actually get some good talent from Japan.

    16 year old Dominicans with great talent is good but not for the next 5+ years.The Yankees still have to wait 3 years for anything of these guys to help us.

  36. Gonzo says:

    I don’t know why everyone is so worked up. This was absolutely expected. They had issues with arms in the system so they addressed the Nardi situation. Next they deal with the entire farm. No big deal. Hal’s a businessman. He’s trying to maximize his return on investment. Not a big deal at all.

  37. fezz says:

    that’s partly a byproduct of drafting either dead last or at the absolute bottom of the draft each and every year since the mid 90′s. even before the draft slots and the cost-certainty in paying picks, the david prices and bryce harpers just dont make it to 28, 29 or 30.

    factor in previous years where if you signed a lvl A free agent you lost your 1st round pick and there were years the Yankees didn’t even make a 1st round selection (can blame Cashman for this – such as 2002 when they surrendered their 1st round pick to Oakland for signing Giambi).

    the draft slot however is only marginally to blame and the scouting dept really seemed to drop the ball here for pretty much ever other than the time steinbrenner was away from the game and the core was drafted in the very early 90s. the Yankees really seemed to be well behind the curve when it came to the Moneyball era and using stats and tendencies to forcast.

    Even up to today they seem to be in love with HS pitchers with mid 90′s fastballs (HS players – pitchers especially are very finicky with development and have a tendency to brien taylor it and wash out) and players with the dreaded “baseball body” (the looks of the stereotypical major leaguer is preferred to oldscool scouts over sabremetric statistical analysis).

    Cashman has always seemed a master at plugging roster holes via trade and free agency (though he has trended towards older has-beens pushing 40 than actual guys still in or entering their primes (think randy johnson, gary sheffield etc..) though this could have been with steinbrener influence. where Cashman always seemed terrible was scouting, drafting and knowing how best to develop the players once they are in the system. I will emphatically support the “no organization has gotten less out of more” regarding the minor league system of the past 20 years.

    it probably can never happen but I would love to see Billy Beane replace Cashman as GM.. oh how amazing it would be to see him have the budget to retain players rather than sell them off as he has had to do in Oakland the past 2 decades. his and his front office’s skills on the draft and develop side coupled with the budget of the Yankees :D

    Hal and Hank should be blowing up Mr Beane’s cell early, often and continuously should they ever seek to ‘retire’ Brian Cashman

  38. I'm a looser baby, so why don't you kill me? (Formerly not the droids you're looking for...) says:

    It occurs to me that perhaps this meeting should’ve occurred prior to the trade deadline.

Leave a Reply

You may use <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <strike> <strong> in your comment.

If this is your first time commenting on River Ave. Blues, please review the RAB Commenter Guidelines. Login for commenting features. Register for RAB.