Sep
01

Sunday Night Open Thread

By

I was in the mood for a Marcus Thames highlight today for no apparent reason, and the walk-off homer against Jonathan Papelbon always does the trick. That game was ridiculous. The Yankees scored like five runs in the first inning against Daisuke Matsuzaka, but Phil Hughes blew the lead over the next few innings. New York came back and re-took the lead before the bullpen blew it. Alex Rodriguez tied the game with a two-run homer off Papelbon earlier in the inning. Easily one of the most frustratingly awesome games I’ve ever attended in person.

Here is your open thread for the evening. The ESPN Sunday Night Game is a total dud, the Mets at the Nationals (Niese vs. Ohlendorf). There are no NFL games either, so I guess Breaking Bad it is. Not that I’m complaining. Feel free to talk about whatever you like here. Enjoy.

Categories : Open Thread

90 Comments»

  1. Sounds legit says:

    If Girardi is so uncomfortable leaving Pettitte in the game why not bring in Houdini for 2 innings since Preston Claiborne will be rejoining the team so soon. The Yanks have yet to solve the White Sox and can ill afford to blow 3 run leads down the stretch when every game means so much just to make the WC.

    • the Real Greg says:

      He said that he was uncomfortable for bringing in Robertson to get six outs.

      • Kramerica Industries says:

        But he should’ve felt fine bringing in Kelley to face RHB with the bases empty to start the 7th. If it backfires, there’s still a chance to limit the damage.

        • the Real Greg says:

          And as I told you, each game is an individual organism. Pettite had thrown about 88 pitches very successfully. Of course, you send him out there for the 7th.

          • Kramerica Industries says:

            He only threw 86 against Toronto. Ok, fine, they had a big lead, so they could take it easy.

            How about the game before that, against Toronto? Made it through six well, struggled to start the 7th. Gone.

            Before that, against Boston? Cruising through six, and then got drilled in the 7th, an inning that could’ve been much worse if not for David Ortiz being a dumbass.

            This, mind you, being after he had begun to right his ship and pitch well. Logic tells you the oldest starting pitcher in the American League is more likely than the average pitcher to begin losing effectiveness a tad bit earlier. If Andy can give you six innings and/or 85 pitches of quality baseball, you absolutely take it at this point. The bullpen was fully rested. Take advantage of that. Don’t needlessly push your SP beyond his capable means, create a jam, and then bring in a homer-prone pitcher. That’s just begging for trouble.

    • mustang (The Has Beens & Wannabes Bunch 2013) says:

      New rules of baseball:
      1-Roberston can’t pitch 2 innings after a day off?
      2-Roberston can’t come in during the 7th with 2 runners on just to get out of the inning.
      3-Roberston can only pitch 2 innings if Mo is unavailable the importance of the game doesn’t matter.

      These rules should NEVER be broken because they mess with the manager’s comfort level.

    • VT Yankee Fan says:

      The good relievers MUST be saved for the easier situations (bases empty, start of the inning). The crappy relievers MUST be brought in for the high leverage situations. The binder says so.

      I don’t actually blame Girardi for this kind of thinking because all the MLB managers do it that way. Not that it makes any sense just because they all do it.

      • the Real Greg says:

        There you go.

        And if we get angry at Girardi, we must get angry at all the other managers in fairness.

        • Need Pitching & Hitting & Defense & Baserunning says:

          No. I want all of the other teams to lose. I’m fine with their managers making thoughtless decisions.
          That other managers do it too isn’t a reason for doing it, it’s just an excuse for doing it.

  2. Mike says:

    And Hughes pitches next. Looking forward to it.

  3. Kramerica Industries says:

    So the Rays lose again, and the margin remains 3.5.

    Problem is, the Rays will eventually start winning again; any team and any offense will look feeble when the 3-4 hitters are in the slumps that Longoria and Myers are in. As such, blowing 3-0 7th innings leads is about the worst thing you can do while the team your chasing is sucking. Missed opportunities. Killer.

  4. Rolling Doughnut says:

    Big binder blunder today, but the real problem is the less than 3 runs scored in 7 of the last 9 games. Stewart has no business in the lineup, and our baseball god Jeter needs to be dropped down. Suzuki or Granderson can bat 2d.

    • Need Pitching & Hitting & Defense & Baserunning says:

      Ichiro has been pretty awful the second half. Maybe against LHP, but against RHP, he should be near the bottom of the order.
      Jeter needs to be dropped though, at least against RHP.

      • Rolling Doughnut says:

        You’re right about Ichiro, I just looked at his Aug slash and wrc+. Thought they were better. I know it’s SSS, but they still beat Jeter’s though.

  5. Robert says:

    Good luck to Melky Mesa sorry to see him go.Still would rather have him on the 2014 squad instead of some of the fading Superstars.
    So Healthcott,Austin and Almonte will be the AAA starting outfield and an injury away from the Bronx next year.Good Luck to them.

  6. JGYank says:

    Os passed us again and we r tied with Cleveland. Not worried about the pen since its been our biggest strength and we r getting Clairborne back.

  7. Terrence Bollea says:

    Fire Joe Girardi. Just a lot of nonsense.

  8. Bob Buttons says:

    Guess the hat is safe for another year.

  9. Kramerica Industries says:

    Holy shit. Greg logic would essentially say that Joe Girardi would be at no fault at all if the Yankees led in the 8th inning of a Game 7, and blew that lead because Mo was being saved for his “one inning role” of the 9th inning.

    That game thread might just be worse than the 7th inning of todays game. Unreal.

    • the Real Greg says:

      Ah but the postseason, especially the World Series is a different story.

      • Need Pitching & Hitting & Defense & Baserunning says:

        No, it’s not a different story.
        In a best of 7 series, they need a .571 winning % to advance.
        In a best of 5 series, they need a .600 winning % to advance.
        For the Yankees to advance this season, they’ll likely need over a .650 winning % to advance.

        They’re essentially in, or should be in, playoff mode now.
        There’s enough games left that they still need to somewhat manage how much relievers are used, but they are in a desperate enough situation to alter roles to give the team the best possible chance to win each game.

        • the Real Greg says:

          Again

          Fleeting chance at WC vs. 1 game to win a World Series.

          Not the same.

          • Need Pitching & Hitting & Defense & Baserunning says:

            Forget WS.
            How about Division Series? Or ALCS?

            I’m not advocating Scott Proctoring DRob. They can still limit his workload so as not to risk injury. But when they do use him, they need to use him in the most effective and efficient manner. That means asking the best setup guy to get the biggest outs. Regardless of what inning.

      • Kramerica Industries says:

        So what? You’re taking them out of their element, and you’re making them do things that they are not accustomed to doing with any kind of regularity.

        It has to be remembered that I was saying Kelley for the 7th, not DRob. But that I favored Kelley to start with the bases empty, and why? Because he gives up gopher balls aplenty. And when do gopher balls not hurt you as much? With the bases empty and a multi-run lead.

        I’m not even going to argue the pro-DRob crowd, since there’s plenty of justification there, too. But it seems like your whole belief system basically says that managers are figureheads who essentially do nothing. If a manager can never be blamed, than what exactly is their function? Like it or not, managers are the ones who make the chief decisions on stuff like pitching changes. And if a pitching change seems questionable and is prone to backfiring, then they should receive requisite blame, no questions asked.

        I, for one, never used hindsight today. I disagreed right from the outset about sending Pettitte back out there. When he brought Kelley in, he brought him in where a gopher balls does major, major damage. He did this when Pettitte has shown a serious run of late where he is prone to being hit hard once he reaches the 7th inning and/or goes past 85 pitches. Kelley didn’t execute, no. But he shouldn’t have been in that spot to begin with. I’d rather him start the inning fresh where he can use his fastball/slider duo with free will. Things could’ve turned out completely differently.

        • the Real Greg says:

          But when a manager makes a questionable pitching move and it works, do you hear complaints from general fans?

          I think not.

          • Need Pitching & Hitting & Defense & Baserunning says:

            Does that make it right?

            I think not.

            Because casual fans don’t know better, or don’t care enough to complain, doesn’t make bad decisions acceptable.

          • Kramerica Industries says:

            Bad processes leading to good results does not make it a good process.

            And who cares what the “general fan” thinks, anyway? We’re all degenerates who spend time on a fricken’ Yankees blog, commenting about every single game. This isn’t exactly a meeting place for “general fans”, and we’re not going to go about analyzing games as “general fans”. That’s completely irrelevant to anything.

            You bet I’ve seen a few iffy decisions work out, and basically said “whew, that could’ve been a lot worse”. I’m not going to credit Joe Girardi if Jobber gets out of that 7th inning jam, because there is absolutely no reason why that fucking POS should be pitching against the heart of the Orioles lineup in a 4-3 game in the 7th inning. If it works out, that’s called dumb luck. It’s not called sound strategy. And Adam Jones showed just why when he sent one of Jobber’s garbage pitchers over the CF wall.

            • the Real Greg says:

              I didn’t say it did.

              I’m saying that most people don’t give a crap about process. They care about results. Period.

              And that is important because they are the majority and it feels nice to be with the majority sometimes.

              • Kramerica Industries says:

                And, to that end, I really, really don’t care what those people think. The fact that you keep citing them doesn’t matter at all.

                The same people who disregard process are the same ones who would lose all their money in the stock market. Process absolutely matters. Good processes will generally lead to better results. Bad processes will generally lead to worse results. Anomaly’s exist, but that doesn’t make them the rule; it makes them the exception to the rule.

                I don’t see what good it feels like to be a part of a majority when the majority is wrong. Back in the 1800s, the majority of the American South (later the Confederacy) thought it was ok to have an entire race of people as slaves. In the early 1900s, the majority of Europeans favored Eugenics. That doesn’t mean they were good ideas, and, guess what, in the end, the right side won the day.

                • the Real Greg says:

                  Well I do. I like to hear positive things about my team on the radio and on television. I like to see people wearing Yankee shirts and hats.

                  Makes me feel good. But that’s just me, it seems.

                  • Kramerica Industries says:

                    Then you are simply wired differently than many of us. Not that we don’t mind hearing good things about the team we root for, but it’s really no skin off my nose if the Yankees are being criticized by somebody. In many cases, there’s a reason for it.

                    None of us are going to give up our stances about Pettitte there. Most of us were in favor of taking him out regardless of how the 7th would’ve turned out. Would we have wanted to be wrong? Of course. But it wasn’t shocking when we were right. In fact, I’m pretty certain most of us were pissed at how right we ended up being.

                    • the Real Greg says:

                      It’s tough not to take it personally when it’s all around you, you know?

                      I do my best to go away from it but its difficult.

                      I guess that’s why I feel very strongly about defending Girardi. He gets a lot of flack for doing very little.

                    • Kramerica Industries says:

                      I want to sympathize, but I live in Tampa, and if you think it’s bad up in New York, at least remember that the majority of the people around you at least still root for the same laundry.

                      I deal with irritating Rays fans on a daily basis, getting on my case every time the Rays beat the Yankees or when the Rays are doing better than the Yankees. September 2010 was a whole bunch of hell, with the way the Yankees blew the division by losing those home games to the Rays, and then losing those two games to end the season when they would’ve won the division otherwise.

                      Enemy territory means having to deal with nothing but negative attention. To that end, I guess I’ve just gotten familiarized by now.

      • the Real Greg says:

        Much more at stake in the short term.

        A fleeting chance at a WC vs. A good chance to win a WS.

        Very different stakes.

        • Kramerica Industries says:

          Fleeting chance? 3.5 games isn’t exactly climbing up Mount Everest. Many teams have erased 3.5 game deficits in fewer games than the Yankees have. Hell, here are a few recent examples:

          2007 Phillies erased a 7 game deficit on the Mets in the last 17 games.

          2008 Phillies erased a 3.5 game deficit on the Mets in the last 18 games.

          2009 Twins erased a 3 game deficit on the Tigers in the last 4 games.

          2011 Rays erased a 9 game deficit on the Red Sox in the last 26 games.

          2012 A’s erased a 5 game deficit on the Rangers in the last 9 games.

          The Yankees have played, what, 137 games, so 25 remain? With three head-to-heads to boot. No, this is not a “fleeting chance”, unless we see more management like we did today. That’s a fine chance as long as they take care of business in the head-to-head meetings and match the Rays outside of that. The Indians and Orioles not being factors to fear because they are behind in the standings.

          The attitude we had a month ago needs to go away. The Yankees aren’t 6th in the wild card standings, trailing the Royals, anymore. They’re one good week and one bad week from the Rays away from moving even with them. Problem is, who the hell sees another 1-6 from the Rays remaining on their schedule? The fact that the Yankees only went 3-3 represents a major missed opportunity.

          • Kramerica Industries says:

            In the case of one that didn’t work out, the 2010 Yankees erased a 2.5 game deficit with seven games to play on the Rays, actually surged to a game ahead with two games remaining, and then lost both games while the Rays won both to win the division. Mind you, there were no head-to-heads there to sway the division race that violently.

          • Improbable Island's Dirty Midget Whores (formerly RRR) says:

            And now, we’re forced to win 3 of 4 at Baltimore.

            • Kramerica Industries says:

              In regards to the overall wild card race, there’s still a week to see how things might sort themselves out.

              But to take the season series? Yes. The Orioles had a chance to sweep the Yankees at the end of June, and they finished the deal. The same cannot be said for the last two times the Yankees had a chance to sweep the Orioles. Those two games are the difference between being 2.5 games ahead and .5 behind the Orioles with 25 games left in the season.

  10. JLC 776 says:

    You know, it’s occasionally okay to blame the players for blowing a lead. Just sayin’…

    • Rolling Doughnut says:

      Eminently winnable must win game, HL situation, Kelley’s been shit last 4 outings, and Girardi doesn’t feel “comfortable” using DRob four six outs? Like, he’s saving him for late Sept? Or what? Then with the game still in reach, Joe brings in Joba. Two really bad calls Joe. Just sayin. Sometimes it’s OK to blame the manager for baseball stupidity.

      • the Real Greg says:

        No its not and I told you the reason why.

        Because in baseball, stupid decisions sometimes work. That’s the nature of the game.

        Besides, if Joba had been released and Claiborne retained, we probably wouldn’t be having this conversation.

        • Need Pitching & Hitting & Defense & Baserunning says:

          And in baseball, sometimes bad players come through.
          So it would be OK to bat Chris Stewart clean up for the rest of the season, because it might work out once or twice.

          • the Real Greg says:

            No because hitting is less volatile then bullpen pitching.

            You have a pretty good idea of what you get from a hitter season to season.

            You don’t have that with bullpen pitching. It can change on a dime. Some days they’ll pitch well and some days they’ll pitch like crap.

            • the Real Greg says:

              Now Michael Kay said that Joba had been pitching better of late. Is that true?

              • Need Pitching & Hitting & Defense & Baserunning says:

                Slightly better. Not nearly to the point of earning trust in a big spot in a vital game.

                • the Real Greg says:

                  Okay, I was illustrating my point on how bullpen pitching can turn on a dime.

                  • Terrence Bollea says:

                    How does this illustrate your point? Your point sucks and your example sucked. There’s nothing volatile or unpredictable about Joba this year. Sometimes he sucks ten asses and gives up 7 runs in 2/3 of an inning. Sometimes he sucks eight or nine asses and only gives up a few hits or 1 or 2 runs. But he always sucks. No manager with any fucking sense would use him in a situation that mattered, especially a situation which mattered as much as this one.

              • Kramerica Industries says:

                Pitching better of late is a relative phrase.

                It would be hard for Jobber to pitch any worse than he was before.

            • Need Pitching & Hitting & Defense & Baserunning says:

              DRob being better than Kelley, Logan, and Joba isn’t a volatile situation.
              He’s clearly better. He’s clearly been better all year.

              • the Real Greg says:

                That’s fine. Then somebody has to pitch the 8th.

                He has clearly gone with the tenet this year of not having DRob pitch multiple innings. And he has stuck with this notion all year. Should he suddenly go against his notions?

                I look at poor Grady Little who went against his notion of taking Pedro Martinez out in 2003. It got him fired.

                • Need Pitching & Hitting & Defense & Baserunning says:

                  Even if DRob and Mo were limited to 3 outs each.
                  9 outs remained. DRob and Mo would get 6 (at least)
                  3 outs with nobody on base to start the 8th
                  3 outs with nobody on base to start the 9th
                  3 outs with 2 runners on in the 7th.

                  2013 Run expectancy: 1st and 2nd, no outs = 1.416
                  2013 Run expectancy: Nobody on, no outs = 0.469

                  Preventing runs with nobody on is easier than preventing runs with 2 runners on. How does trusting the more difficult job to lesser relievers increase their chances of winning the game?

                  • the Real Greg says:

                    That’s why they say. “A save situation is sometimes in the seventh inning”

                    But no manager is going to bring in his closer into the seventh inning.

                    As for Girardi, he clearly does not trust anybody else in that 8th inning.

                    I bet he didn’t want to go to Joba in the 7th, but he had no choice in his mind. He couldn’t break his own rules.

                    • Need Pitching & Hitting & Defense & Baserunning says:

                      That Girardi thinks it’s a good idea doesn’t make it a good idea.
                      Of course he can break his own rules. He can do anything he chooses to do.

                      Regardless, the fact that Girardi does things a certain way, or other managers might do things the same way, doesn’t make it right.
                      Use independent thought. Think for yourself. Does using lesser relievers in the tougher situation give them a better or worse chance of protecting the lead?

                      And forget about Joba. That’s a whole other dumb decision. Drob should have been brought in to protect the lead. Waiting until they had already blown the lead to bring him in would be even dumber.

                    • the Real Greg says:

                      He could. But he doesn’t. He hasn’t done it. He keeps playing Stewart over Romine. Why? Because he believes in veteran presence. Its probably wrong but the man has earned enough credit to get the benefit of the doubt from me.

                      And I know it doesn’t make it right. But as I said, if we blame one we should blame them all.

        • Rolling Doughnut says:

          The more I read your posts the more convinced I become that you are a very adept troll. Kudos sir.

    • OldYanksFan says:

      WRONG! Whenever we lose, it’s Girardi’s fault. Whenever a player gets injured, it’s Cashman’s fault. Anything else goes wrong… it’s ARod’s fault.

      • Need Pitching & Hitting & Defense & Baserunning says:

        I’m pretty sure ARod shares blame for all of those.

        This response somewhat annoys me though. Players are sometimes going to have bad days, it’s part of the game. And the players that fail definitely deserve the bulk of the blame. But a manager’s job is to give his team the best possible chance to win given the situation they are in. A bad day doesn’t explain a bad decision. I don’t see any problem with criticizing a manager when he fails to do that, especially when he doesn’t even provide a valid reason for doing so.
        Kelley, Joba, and Logan all deserve a ton of blame.
        Cashman deserves blame for intentionally weakening the bullpen when they can’t afford to give away any games.
        Girardi deserves criticism for not giving the team the best chance (or most likely path) to win.

  11. Cool Lester Smooth says:

    Hey now, no game that involves Bryce Harper can be characterized as “a total dud”

  12. the Real Greg says:

    By the way it is important to note that pitching Joba did not cost the Yankees the game.

    • Need Pitching & Hitting & Defense & Baserunning says:

      fallacy

      • Rolling Doughnut says:

        Greg is just messing with our heads, he can’t possibly believe the stuff he’s laying out here. He’s the consummate troll. Must be.

        • the Real Greg says:

          How can I not believe it when it is technically fact?

          The Yankees were behind when Joba came in. Therefore he technically did not cost them the game.

        • Improbable Island's Dirty Midget Whores (formerly RRR) says:

          You’re right, of course. I think more people are starting to come around, too.

    • mustang (The Has Beens & Wannabes Bunch 2013) says:

      Its a lot easier to get 1 run rather then 4 runs.

    • Improbable Island's Dirty Midget Whores (formerly RRR) says:

      In this context no, it’s not important, because whether or not it ended up costing them the game or not is irrelevant as to whether or not it really was a good or bad decision.

    • Kramerica Industries says:

      A 4-3 game can turn around on a dime.

      To say this is to imply that the game would’ve played out the same way at 4-3 as it did 7-3.

      I think there’s a word to describe that line of thinking.

      • the Real Greg says:

        It could. But to say that THAT MOVE SPECIFICALLY cost the Yankees the game is wrong because they were already behind.

        • Improbable Island's Dirty Midget Whores (formerly RRR) says:

          So?

          • the Real Greg says:

            Well somebody said in the game thread that that move cost them the game and that person was wrong.

            • JGYank says:

              I think you’re referring to my comment where I said that bringing Joba put the game out of reach and cost them any CHANCE at winning. Didn’t say he cost us the game. Kelley cost us the game and Joba buried us for good measure.

  13. Wheels says:

    That Cano strike out looking in the 4th hurt us too. Could’ve tacked on some more runs there.

  14. mustang (The Has Beens & Wannabes Bunch 2013) says:

    Hopefully Girardi learn something from this and will go outside of his comfort zone next time. The guy has done amazing job this year.

  15. the Real Greg says:

    The bottom line is that Girardi is a stubborn son of a bitch. He keeps playing Stewart and he tries to not bring in Robertson until the 8th inning. He likes bullpen roles and veteran presence

    Today, it backfired on him. But most days, it has not as to his wins. So he’s going to keep doing it until it backfires completely (i.e. a losing season)

    • mustang (The Has Beens & Wannabes Bunch 2013) says:

      “Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.” – Albert Einstein quotes from BrainyQuote.com

    • mustang (The Has Beens & Wannabes Bunch 2013) says:

      To improve is to change; to be perfect is to change often.
      Winston Churchill

  16. cr1 says:

    There is no more point in attempting to get Greg to accept another viewpoint than in attempting to get Girardi to go against his self-imposed ‘rules’.

    Rigidity is rigidity is rigidity. Neither Greg nor Joey Binder is temperamentally capable of becoming flexible.

    Not surprising at all that one super-rigid guy should post in defense of another.

    No need to go to the troll theory to account for it.

    Occam’d.

    • the Real Greg says:

      That’s true. Although I have bitched about Girardi a bit this year. It’s just that he gets so much hate for doing so little that it really irks me.

      That’s all.

    • Improbable Island's Dirty Midget Whores (formerly RRR) says:

      And if this was the only case this happened, I would agree with you.

  17. Cool Lester Smooth says:

    What’s one more?

    Fuck Skylar.

  18. Kramerica Industries says:

    An amusing game could be played in regards to naming how many guys in that video are no longer on the Yankees.

    (Red Sox too, if you want.)

  19. forensic says:

    Wow, it’s amazing what this thread and the game thread turned into. Greg is apparently in rare form today.

  20. forensic says:

    but Phil Hughes blew the lead over the next few innings

    Hey, nobody can be perfect EVERY time out there…

  21. Get Phelps Up says:

    Wow I’m glad I wasn’t really around today. You’d think we were Halos Heaven – arguing for 5 hours over who is to blame for a loss.

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