Jan
09

Thoughts after the Hall of Fame announcement

By
The Big Hurt and the Man of Steal. (Kirk Irwin/Getty)

The Big Hurt and the Man of Steal. (Kirk Irwin/Getty)

The 2014 Hall of Fame class was announced yesterday and three all-time greats were elected to Cooperstown: Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine, and Frank Thomas. The Yankees tried to sign Maddux as a free agent back the 1992-93 offseason, but he took less money to go to the Braves. New York wound up signing Jimmy Key instead, then Key beat Maddux in the decisive Game Six of the 1996 World Series. That was fun. Here are some random thoughts.

1. Mike Mussina is the first Hall of Fame candidate I am really invested in. (Jorge Posada will be the next when he hits the ballot in three years.) I love Don Mattingly and Bernie Williams as much as anyone, but I never did think of them as Cooperstown-worthy. I do think Moose is deserving and I’m really hoping he gets inducted at some point, even if he will almost certainly wear an Orioles hat on his plaque. Needless to say, I was disappointing to see him appear on only 20.3% of the ballots yesterday. That’s a lot of ground to make up and the ballot isn’t going to unclog anytime soon — Maddux, Glavine, and Thomas will be replaced by first-timers Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, and John Smoltz next year. It’s going to be a few years before Mussina even gets close to the 75% requirement.

2. While we’re on the subject of the Hall of Fame: how many future Hall of Famers are on the Yankees’ 40-man roster right now? Derek Jeter is a lock and I think Ichiro Suzuki is as well. Alex Rodriguez has all the requisite stats but he’ll never get in because of the performance-enhancing drug stuff. His admission in 2009 sealed his fate. Carlos Beltran has a very strong Hall of Fame case and these next three years could help push him over the top. CC Sabathia was on the Hall of Fame path for most of his career, but if last season is the new normal for him, he’ll probably end up on the outside looking in. Alfonso Soriano and Mark Teixeira are Hall of Very Good players at best. Aside from Jeter, Ichiro, Beltran, and Sabathia, the Yankee with the best Hall of Fame chances might be Brian McCann. He’s only 29 (30 next month), so if he takes advantage of the short right field porch these next five (possibly six) years and holds up physically for another year or two after that, he could wind up with around 300 homers and 45 fWAR. Those would be top five and top 15 marks, respectively, among catchers all-time. McCann has a ways to go but the Cooperstown foundation is in place.

(Tom Szczerbowski/Getty)

(Tom Szczerbowski/Getty)

3. Now that the Hall of Fame announcement has passed, the A-Rod ruling could be handed down at any moment. I suppose MLB may have asked arbitrator Frederic Horowitz to hold off until next week, after the new Hall of Famers do their interviews and all that, but he isn’t under any obligation to follow along. Still, I think the ruling will be announced Monday at the earliest. (Now watch it be this afternoon.) Whenever it comes, it will be good to finally get that out of the way, regardless of whether the suspension is overturned or upheld or reduced or whatever. I’m sicking of hearing about it and waiting around for it. I just want the Yankees to move forward with their offseason — it’s clear they’re waiting for the ruling before making more moves — and get this roster settled. Especially the infield. It worries the heck out of me.

4. The bullpen worries the heck out of me as well, but I am more confident in the team’s internal relief options than their infield options. By a lot. Unless the Yankees sign about three relievers these next few weeks, they’re going to have some bullpen competition in Spring Training and I’m curious to see how much of a chance right-hander Jose Ramirez will be given to win a job. He threw 9.1 innings in camp last year (three starts and one relief appearance) but he had not yet pitched above High Class-A. Ramirez chucked 42.1 innings in Double-A and another 31.1 innings at Triple-A last summer, so he has some upper level experience. The problem is that he’s been completely unable to stay healthy as a starter throughout his career — he’s had arm trouble in the past, and last year he missed time due to fatigue and an oblique problem — so much so that it might be time to stick him in the bullpen and let him air it out. Ramirez will turn 24 in two weeks and he’s got a really big fastball with a knockout changeup and a good slider. There’s a chance he can be an impact reliever as soon as this year if given the opportunity.

Categories : Musings

98 Comments»

  1. Nate says:

    Mussina > Glavine

    • jsbrendog says:

      fact. in every statistic except for wins Moose>>>Glavine

      • I think Glavine being a first ballot HOF has a lot to do with 2 main factors aside from the 300 win mark: The 2 CY Young awards, and the fact that he pitches lefthanded. You compare his stats and hes a top 10 lefty of all time. I do believe Moose got completely overlooked this year. Hopefully the HOF will get rid of the silly limit to the number of players that can be voted on in a year. That will definitely help Moose out in the coming years.

        • Big John Stud says:

          But his FIP stats and league adjusted stats were middling. He’s Jamie Moyer with more wins in a soft league and division. That’s not top ten anything.

          I’d argue that’s the reason he only has one ring. The AL won 13 of 21 (.620 WPCT) championships during his career. Since he’s retired, they’ve won 3 of 5.

          • LK says:

            I would think even the biggest advocates of FIP would admit that it underrates someone like Glavine who outperformed it consistently for thousands of innings.

            Glavine’s WAR based on runs allowed (which is league adjusted) is 25th since 1900, just ahead of Mike Mussina, Curt Schilling, and Whitey Ford.

            The issue here is that Schilling and Mussina are not being adequately appreciated. There’s no need to unfairly disparage Glavine, who is worlds better than Jamie Moyer and a deserving HOFer.

      • Guy says:

        Even there advantage Mussina. Mussina could go 35 and 50 and match Glavines winning percentage. Here’s a compelling statistic, Mussina has the 9th best winning percentage in history relative to the teams he pitched for, 175 or more wins. right behind Seaver and far far better than the sainted Atlanta trio, or Carlton, Blyleven, Ryan and and umber of suppposed hard luck pitchers.

    • mitch says:

      I agree, but i’ll be more upset if Smoltz gets in before Mussina. Glavine at least had the counting stats that made him an obvious choice amongst the old writers. What does Smoltz have over Moose? Even if he remained a great starter during his 4 bullpen years his career numbers probably wouldn’t have eclipsed Mussina’s.

      • Big John Stud says:

        Smoltz will. The writers have a huge NY bias. And Moose was kind of an a-hole while Smoltz is a TV presence.

        It’s BS.

      • WhittakerWalt says:

        Smoltz was more dominant, more of a power pitcher. He also has over 3,000 strikeouts. And he flourished as both a starter and a closer, which the voters love.

        • Guy says:

          Mussina pitched to DH’s, Smoltz to pitchers. Add a strikeout per 9 to Mussina’s and he actually has a higher strikeout per nine innings than does Smoltz. As for Smoltz being a closer, lets pretend he was a starter those 3+ years. Smoltz could have gone 57-0 in those years and Mussina would still have a better winning percentage than Smoltz. And Mussina year after year pitched as the number 1, Smoltz faced the 2 and 3′s. Actually, there really isn’t a comparison between the two. Mussina was a far better pitcher than Smoltz.

      • Guy says:

        As I said earlier Smoltz could go 57-0 in those years and still not match Mussina’s record. To even mention Smoltz and Mussina in same breath is a joke.

    • Guy says:

      Mussina pitched to DH’s, Smoltz to pitchers. Add a strikeout per 9 to Mussina’s and he actually has a higher strikeout per nine innings than does Smoltz. As for Smoltz being a closer, lets pretend he was a starter those 3+ years. Smoltz could have gone 57-0 in those years and Mussina would still have a better winning percentage than Smoltz. And Mussina year after year pitched as the number 1, Smoltz faced the 2 and 3?s. Actually, there really isn’t a comparison between the two. Mussina was a far better pitcher than Smoltz.

  2. Chris Z. says:

    Call me cynical but I can see the A-Rod thing being resolved in about…16 days. Exactly a day AFTER the Tanaka thing wraps up. MLB is NOT pleased at all with this situation and I can see Bud trying to steer the decision to after the Tanaka contract deadline to add a little extra sting to the Yankees as punishment for this entire thing. Rightly or Wrongly, involved or not…the Yanks are getting lumped into this entire mess and I wouldn’t put it past Dear Leader Selig to try and turn the screws to the Yanks for all of this.

    • LK says:

      I would be shocked if Horowitz is taking any input from MLB at all about when he makes his decision. Having worked on arbitration cases before, I’d expect him to be more than willing to ignore both sides’ requests on timing.

      • lightSABR says:

        Right. He gets portrayed as a league stooge sometimes, and it’s not accurate. He wouldn’t have the job if he hadn’t been approved by both the league and the union, and either the league or the union can fire him if they don’t like one of his decisions.

  3. Dygg says:

    May have been worth noting too that Mo will go to the HoF and that Pettitte will at least get some discussion.

    • Big John Stud says:

      Pettitte is very underrated relative to pitchers like Glavine. And he gets no benefit from pitching in the much tougher league and division. It’s BS.

      Given all this Maddux/Glavine love, Mo and Pettitte should go in together. That’s how the writers think. And if they were NL pitchers it would happen (since their stats would also be much better). As Yankees, it never will. BS.

      • LK says:

        Well, Mo is pretty clearly going to go in first ballot, and Pettitte is an admitted PED user whose numbers are inferior to Glavine’s (even after accounting for the league difference), so I’m not sure what there is to complain about as a Yankee fan on that front. I love Pettitte and think he should have a decent chance in a perfect world (I don’t care about PEDs), but Mussina and Schilling were both better and neither of them seems to be getting much traction.

        • Big John Stud says:

          “whose numbers are inferior to Glavine’s (even after accounting for the league difference)”

          Not true. ERA+ doesn’t account for league differences. Pettitte has better peripherals in a much tougher league and facing DHs, not pitchers, four to five times a game. Pettitte was the better pitcher and with a much better post-season record.

          The PED stuff is BS. HGH has been shown to improve performance.

          • LK says:

            I agree with you on the PEDs, but you know the hall voters are going to take that into account.

            RA-9 WAR on fangraphs is league adjusted, but is based on runs allowed. It has Glavine ahead of Pettitte, 88.0 to 62.4. To believe Pettitte was as good as (or better than) Glavine basically means you think Glavine outperforming his peripherals for 20 years and over 4000 IP was luck the entire time. While that’s possible, I find it difficult to believe.

            I think Glavine’s overrated, but I think you’re taking it way too far.

            • Jim Is A (Bored) Peckerhead says:

              Yeah, basically this.

              I’ve basically ignored PED’s when making my own decisions.

              Glavine was great. He wasn’t Maddux and he wasn’t Smoltz. He’s not a top 10% HOF guy, but he deserves to be there.

          • Now Batting says:

            ERA + does account for league differences. As you yourself stated:

            “Look at Pedro and Maddux in 2004. A very close ERA (.12 runs difference). Pedro pitched 14% better. That’s a very big difference.”

            I’m convinced you’re trolling as I’m an optimist and don’t want to believe another person could be so thick headed.

  4. Jim Is A (Bored) Peckerhead says:

    It’s also possible FA’s, and agents, are waiting to see how it plays out. It’s not necessarily just the Yankees.

    A big player like NY is worth waiting for; even if it’s just to bring up the price before someone signs elsewhere.

  5. Phil F says:

    While I understand Mattingly will probably never get in the HOF his numbers match up very well with Kirby Puckett who made it in 1st ballot I think? He gets penalized because the teams he played for didn’t win and his career was cut a little short. He showed what he could do in the one playoff series the team made. He played hard and has always respected the game and his numbers are Hall worthy.

  6. Darren says:

    I know everyone’s sick of hearing about ARod, but if the ruling is that he gets antyhing more than 50 games, I doubt ARod’s going to let it drop. Even at 50 games he might decide to keep fighting it.

    Also, without the steroid era, Piazza, is a 100% surefire, first ballot hall of famer, right?

  7. drew says:

    Call me crazy but I really have a strong feeling Tex winds up with slightly over 500 HRs

    • The Great Gonzo says:

      I think that now that we lived through the PED era, I think the shine will be taken off the 500 HR plateau.

    • mitch says:

      Let’s hope so…he’s 160 away. He’d need a couple more 30 HR seasons within the next few years to have a chance. I’d certainly sign for that right now.

      • WhittakerWalt says:

        I think he’ll get there, even in a diminished state. Switch hitter who plays great defense, teams will find a place for him. Unless he just breaks down from a health standpoint, which could certainly happen.

        • mitch says:

          He’ll be 34-36 during the final three years of his contract. If all goes well he could probably hang around another 5 years after that with the Yankees or another team. I’d say he has to hit at least 80 HRs the next three years to have a chance. It’s possible and i’ll definitely be rooting for it.

  8. Big John Stud says:

    I may be stupid, blind, or damaged, perhaps all three, but I’m really annoyed by all this Glavine love. The guy was very good, but far, very far, from an all-time great. Moose and Pettitte are both clearly better and pitching their careers in a much tougher league and division.

    DHs in the 1990s were no joke. The longer their careers, the more they faced them. Glavine had nothing like that. He may have outpitched his peripherals, but in the AL, he’s much, much closer to league average in his career. He finished with a 118 ERA+.

    Jamie Moyer in Seattle was a 112 ERA+ pitcher with an ERA close to 4.00 and peripheral s very close to Glavine’s in the NL. That’s closer to who Glavine really was. And if Moyer got to 300 wins, we’d be calling him an all-time great? That’s crazy talk.

    Here – both 1987-2008 (Moyer was in the NL for three years and missed one):
    JMoyer 4.17 ERA 106 ERA+ 1.312 WHIP 9.3 H9 1.1 HR9 2.5 BB9 5.4 K9
    Glavine 3.54 ERA 118 ERA+ 1.314 WHIP 8.8 H9 0.7 HR9 3.1 BB9 5.3 K9

    And that includes the early years when Moyer stunk!

    • Jim Is A (Bored) Peckerhead says:

      http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs.....ly-gifted/

      Let’s instead focus on helping people realize that Schilling and Moose deserve the HOF, rather than disparaging someone who at worst is a borderline hall of famer.

    • Preston says:

      I love looking at peripherals as much as the next guy. But the bottom line is preventing runs. Tom Glavine prevented runs. His K rate, BB rate, whip and everything else aren’t overly impressive, but his ERA is. And that’s what makes him a deserving HOFer. The reason we care about peripherals is because they are more predictive of future ERA than ERA is. We aren’t asking what Tom Glavine’s ERA is going to be. We just care what it was.

      • vicki says:

        word for word, this.

      • Guy says:

        If Glavine had pitched his entire career in the AL East there is little doubt his era would have been north of 4. There is overwhelming evidence to prove this. But let’s use one anecdotal example, Roger Clemens pitched 5 years in NY to a 4 era, at the age of 42 went to Houston for 3 years and had a 2.40 era, returned to NY and had a 4.25. Whoever said earlier that Glavine would have been Jamie Moyer in the AL was bang on.

  9. Matt DiBari says:

    I very badly want Mussina to get in, and I think he will eventually, especially as the writers get younger. It may be a long slog, but you can’t ignore how good he was.

    I also think the ten vote rule may change.

  10. Big John Stud says:

    Point being, Glavine shouldn’t be sharing that stage with Maddux. Maybe he should get in a few years from now, but he’s no where close to first ballot. Glavine is riding Maddux’s coattails and Smoltz will likely do the same. Why do I suspect that none of Bernie, Pettitte, Posada will get the same benefit from Mo and Jeter. Hell, what a great “story” if Pettitte and Mo went in together. Any one here think the writers will talk themselves into that? I doubt it, even as Pettitte isn’t first ballot.

    All this talk of PEDs, and the biggest disparity in the sport is between the league with a real hitter and the one with the pitchers who pretend to hit. Why don’t AL pitchers get the benefit?

    • Jim Is A (Bored) Peckerhead says:

      Don’t underestimate how good Smoltz was. 11/18 years he had a WAR over 4. 3 of those he was a lights out closer, and a 2 WAR as a closer is as good as it gets.

      He only had 2 objectively bad years in 18 seasons, and one(2001) was injury shortened.

      ERA over 4 one time. Gave up almost no home runs at all. Better than average walk rate from 1994 on, elite walk rate after 1996.

      Smoltz was really, really good.

      If you really don’t believe in the first-ballot nonsense, and that the best players should get in whenever they can, you shouldn’t be this upset about anyone riding Maddux’s coat tails, even if they are.

      • Guy says:

        Again, Smoltz could go 57-0 and still not match Mussina’s record. That people speak of Smoltz as a first ballot hall of fame and Mussina get 20% speaks to the ignorance of writers and fans alike.

  11. Delbert Grady says:

    I really want Jose Ramirez to get a chance to start. I think stashing him in the pen is more of the same from this organization; they get weak at the knees when a guy rises through the system based on pure stuff and shove them in the pen. Ramirez has top of the rotation stuff if he develops. I’m really over taking all the big arms and making them relievers so the Yankees get the quick fix result vs. the long game of building new rotation pieces.

    I understand he’s 24 and hasn’t built up his innings yet, but why not give him this year to just focus on starting in the upper levels and see if he gets it? Considering Kuroda is gone next year and CC has is slipping into a #3 starter w/o his velocity this team needs to come up with something in the system more than a Phelps/Warren type who can fill a back rotation spot but not lead.

    I saw Jose pitch in Spring Training and the tools are there, just like they were for Manny Banuelos that spring. The Yankees have to attempt to develop these guys. When they are at their last rope with them, like Betances, put them in the pen to air it out.

    • vicki says:

      i love him too, and it sent a thrill through me to read his name. but he can help the team from the pen and still develop as a starter, you know.

      understandably, i guess, this is a weird blind spot for yankee fans.

      • Delbert Grady says:

        vicki – Don’t think it’s a big blind spot for the fans as it is for the org. The Yankees are slaves to the “starters have to build their innings” mantra so once they put a guy in the pen, he can’t build innings and becomes a career reliever for them.

        The only way Ramirez could move from the pen to the rotation on the big club is if he’s used as a long reliever and why would you make him the mop up man with his stuff?

        The Yankees don’t know how to segue a starter from the rotation to the pen and back. Guys like Nova pulled it off because they got sent back down to focus on starting and building innings again.

        Once you put these guys in short relief, it’s difficult to transition them back every 5th day 100 pitches.

        • vicki says:

          fair enough. you’re hoping for the best decision from an incompetent system. i’m hoping for a competent system.

  12. dkidd says:

    mussina finished top 6 or higher in cy young votes NINE times

    that’s a hall of famer

    • Slu says:

      I don’t think he will ever make it. Does have 300 wins. Only 1 20 win season. no Cy Youngs, no World Series winning teams, and 3of his last 5 seasons weren’t any good. These are the types of things that matter to voters.

      • Jim Is A (Bored) Peckerhead says:

        What? He was still a ~3 WAR pitcher in 3 of his last 5 seasons, at least the one’s I’m guessing you think weren’t any good.

      • mitch says:

        I don’t agree with that last part. He never had a season under 2.8 fWAR. They were down years compared to his own standard, but they were hardly poor overall. Those numbers also came during the heart of the red sox steroid era.

      • LK says:

        I fear that you’re going to be right. Unfortunately, it shows just how arbitrary the voting is.

        Didn’t win 300 games, but won 20 in his final year and almost certainly could’ve hung on for another couple (likely mediocre) years to get the 30 he needed to get there.

        Only won 20 once, but won 19 twice (once leading the AL) and 18 3 times (once going 18-5 and leading the AL in winning percentage).

        No Cy Youngs, but lost to teammate Clemens in 2001 when Moose was clearly the better P and Clemens got much more run support leading to a better record.

        No WS rings, but would’ve gotten one in 2001 if only Mo could’ve nailed down the save.

      • WhittakerWalt says:

        Maddux’ last few years were nothing to write home about, either. I guess you think he shouldn’t have gotten in? Almost every pitcher (or position player) has a couple of bad years at the end. That’s how it works.

  13. Billy says:

    I’m surprised Mike believes Posada is a HOFer. He was never the best in the league. I always viewed Pudge as a clearly superior player. The difference between Pudge and Jorgie makes me feel Jorgie is not hall-worthy. He belongs in Monument Park but not Cooperstown…

    • LK says:

      I don’t think you can really look at it that way. Just because a contemporary is better doesn’t mean that the other player is unworthy. Does Mussina not deserve the hall because Randy Johnson was way better? Or, sure to upset the locals around here, does Jeter not deserve induction because A-Rod was better?

      Jorge’s case, in my opinion, comes down to how you evaluate his defense. He was clearly one of the best offensive catchers ever. Was his defense close to average, or was it a complete disaster? I think this is basically what his case boils down to.

      • mitch says:

        I love Jorge but i think he was probably a couple good season short of the HOF. He got started as a full time catcher a little too late.

      • The Great Gonzo says:

        I think the difference between Pudge and Jorge was that defense, much to the original point. But I would not rule either of them out of Cooperstown.

      • Billy says:

        Defense doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with it, in my opinion. Piazza should be a first ballot HOFer even though his defense was laughable. My opinion of a HOFer means that player was the very best or top echelon of players at his position for an extended period of time. I never considered Jorgie the best and like I said earlier he was always steps behind other top catchers in the league: Pudge, Piazza, Mauer, Victor Martinez, even McCann. It’s close but ultimately I think Posada falls short. Those guys scared you when they were at the plate. Posada was barely the sixth best hitter most years.

    • vicki says:

      is this your logic? pudge’s hall of fame case precludes jorgie’s?

      • Ahk says:

        So you’re saying that you think Posada is one of the greatest catchers of all time?

        • Jim Is A (Bored) Peckerhead says:

          “Pudge’s hall of fame case precludes jorgies” != “Posada is one of the greatest catchers of all time”

          • Ahk says:

            Talking about Posada entering the HOF = Talking about Posada being one of the greatest catchers of all time

            • vicki says:

              it remains a bad argument to reject posada on the basis that pudge had better numbers.

              • WhittakerWalt says:

                Pudge OPS+: 106
                Posada OPS+: 121

                Any numbers that Pudge has an edge in are based on the fact that he was a starter at 20 years of age. I don’t know whose fault it is that Posada didn’t become a starter until he was 28, but it certainly cost him some counting stats.

            • Jim Is A (Bored) Peckerhead says:

              That’s not what vicki was replying to.

              Learn to read.

        • dkidd says:

          yes

          if only jorge started playing full-time at 24 instead of 28 (damn you girardi)

        • WhittakerWalt says:

          “So you’re saying that you think Posada is one of the greatest catchers of all time?”

          Yep. Prove that he wasn’t.

        • Ed says:

          Where do you draw the line for “one of the greatest of all time” ?

          FanGraphs says Posada has the 16th highest career WAR for catcher.

          He’s pretty damn high on the list of best catchers.

          • Ahk says:

            Look, offensively, I’m not going to argue with you. But defensively? He was average at best… and that’s arguable. He wasn’t good in the postseason, look up his batting average. He only finished 3rd in the MVP voting once and that was also one of his best seasons. He was never the best player on his team. Joe Torre never got into the HOF as a player and you could argue that his stats were better than Posada’s.

            Look, I liked having him on the team, but we’re talking about the HOF here. Which means, as I said, we’re talking about one of the greatest catchers of all time. At any point when you were watching Jorge play, did you say to yourself, “wow, I’m watching one of the greatest catchers who ever lived”? I mean that’s what we’re talking about here, that’s what the HOF is. I think offensively he was great, but I don’t think his offensive numbers are enough to cover up his weaknesses.

            I think you can make the argument, I’m not going to say there is no way he’ll make it in at all, but no, I don’t think he was quite good enough.

            • Darren says:

              “At any point when you were watching Jorge play, did you say to yourself, “wow, I’m watching one of the greatest catchers who ever lived”?”

              Part of the problem is that Jorge was overshadowed, not only by surefire Hall of Famers like Jeter, Mo (and Clemens, sort of), but also by the incredible team success. His greatness blended in with the crowd.

            • WhittakerWalt says:

              “At any point when you were watching Jorge play, did you say to yourself, ‘wow, I’m watching one of the greatest catchers who ever lived’?”

              Yes. He was better defensively than Piazza, by a lot. Posada was better offensively than Pudge and better defensively than Piazza, while trailing both of them in the other category. He should not be penalized for that, nor for being on a team with “better” Hall of Famers like Jeter or Rivera.

    • Andy in Sunny Daytona says:

      Pudge will be an interesting case. He was linked to steroids by Jose Canseco, but the writers, for the most part, loved him.

      • Holy Ghost says:

        I don’t see how Pudge gets voted in if the voters don’t elect Piazza. The circumstantial evidence that I-Rod used PEDs is pretty strong.

    • Holy Ghost says:

      I think Posada is a borderline case.

      That and the fact that he played for the Yankees(NY Bias) will probably keep him out of the HOF

  14. Jayson Nix to Tampa Bay…oh great.

  15. The spice mines of Kessel says:

    I need a nap.

  16. dave says:

    its going to take mussina a while. but that is a positive (in my view). 10 years from now, when every current pitcher 28 or older is retired or nearing retirement, mussina’s 270 wins are going to look a whole lot better than they do now (and we know wins are the cool stat for HoF consideration). when people realize he might have the highest win total for anyone who retires in the next 25 years they might think differently.

  17. 461deep says:

    Moose hurt his HOF chances by retiring a little early. He may have reached 300 wins if he stayed 2-3 more years especially since the team hit very well from 2009-2011. You don’t want to hang on too long but Mike quit off a 20 win season. May still get in HOF but it is a long shot now. Mattingly great player but bad back killed him. Jorge, Andy short on HOF level. Alex way over but PED’s say no cigar. After Jeter & Ichiro, Beltran will eek in as will Cano down the road. CC as above needs to have 3-5 more 15 plus win seasons.

  18. Cuso says:

    Posada was a great Yankee, but he’ll drop below the 5% in his 2nd year of eligibility. All this “prove this with respect to Pudge Rodriguez is nonsense.”

    Great Yankee sure. So was Thurman Munson. You know, the guy with the 14th best WAR all-time for catchers? Remember him?

    Munson isn’t in either. If your case that Posada’s “longevity,” if you call it that, supersedes the fact that Munson career was tragically cut short – you’re basically applauding guys that can hang on longer in the majors. Had Posada not received the 4-year deal after his great age-36 year season, he would’ve been out of the majors after his age-37 season. Lucky for him the Yanks were on the hook to continue paying him, huh?

    Great Yankee, yes. Hall of Famer, no.

    Feel free to disagree from a standpoint of butthurtedness. But with the logjam and the 10-vote limit, Posada will not get 5% in his 2nd year. There’s just no way.

    • Cuso says:

      4th all-time in WAR, excuse me.

    • LK says:

      You’re saying Posada would’nt have been able to get a job the year after he hit to a 126 wRC+? Even though he hit to a 119 wRC+ in his age 38 season, the next year? The only year you can credibly make a case he wouldn’t have played without getting that deal was the last one, and he was so bad that year not playing would help his case.

      I don’t think Posada will (or should) make the hall either, but you’re underselling him.

  19. vicki says:

    forget torre; who was the last to go in with a yankee hat? goose? winfield chose padres.

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