Okay, that last thread is taking forever to load, so let’s move our conversation this way.
I couldnt be more torn, i can care less about melky, but hughes could be great…i dunno, at least santana is good and a lefty *ahem* neutralize big papi..
Speaking of which:
Santana vs Ortiz: .182 .250 .455, 12 PA, 1 HR, 4 K
even this isn’t awful, considering:
Santana vs Manny: .278 .409 .500, 22 PA, 1 HR, 5 K
By the way, to follow up on the last thread –
Stick is God!!!
Hughes could be great but Santana is good? If Hughes even approaches Santana he will be at the top of his potential. I love Phil but do people here honestly think he is gonna be the best pitcher in baseball for a multiple year stretch?
That’s why we can get Johan in 08 next year. Plain and simple.
via free agency of course.
Oh, and if the Sox feel obliged to re-sign a 36 yo Manny after 2008 just to counter Johan, that’s fantastic. Otherwise, what other RH power hitter are they going to get on the open market? After 2008, the best RH protection for Papi could be the rapidly aging Lowell, speaking of which:
Santana vs. Lowell – .100 .182 .100, 11 PA, 3 K
I’m feeling better and better with this trade. And I’d probably feel even better if it was Cano instead of Hughes. Not 100% though.
I wonder if its more Gene saying Hughes may project to be a 2-3 starter or him just saying u cant let this oppurtunity pass on Santana. btw I do beleive Santana is great is as well. A full winter to rehab/strenthen phils hammy tho might add 2-4mph back on his fastball….never know
A couple of people made decent points about stick Michael in the last thread, most specifically about Michael being a big Jeff Weaver fan and pushing for that trade…
still thinking about this trade, kinda feel sick to my stomach but who the hell knows…
if Hughes & mekly are the trade we’re not going to give up Ajax or tabata or Horne, right?
If Lastings Milledge, .257,.326,.414 could only get Ryan Church and Brian Schneider, why would Melky Cabrera .275,.340.,388 be more wanted by the twins? The twins probably asked for 4 out of 6 of a list of players, probably joba, hughues, A-jax, Jose Tabata, Cano and maybe Eric Duncan. That’s supposedly how the twins are doing it with all the teams. If the yanks don’t match it, then they’ll keep him and trade him at the trade deadline.
Either some team (stupidly) decides to match their asking price, or they’ll play for this year. If Liriano is healthy they could win the WS, if not, rebuild for next year, and then they might concede. But so far liriano is ok.
Remember the twins are losing two draft picks when they trade him(players that would be taken from the team that signed him) so they’re really just asking for 2 players for one year of Santana, and the guarantee that the team signs him.
I’d prefer not to see him go, but hey, if a team wants to give up four major league ready prospects, I’d take them too. The question is, which team is stupid enough to do it, (since the mets already traded all their major league ready prospects).
I’m ok with the trade, and I’m ok if it don’t happen. What I don’t understand is the handwringing.
Do I love Phil? You bet. Do I think he’ll be a very good pitcher? Yep. A dominant one? I dunno. But I know Johan is that, and has been, and will be for the next couple of years.
To me Phil + Melky + someone not named Horne/Ajax/Tabata/Joba/IPK is a no-brainer.
And by the time Johan’s new contract runs out, we’ll be able to sign Phil as a free agent if indeed he turns out to be a great pitcher.
yea, I thought I was on drugs thinking I’d rather give up cano, but the yanks never are hurting for offense…
Anyone who assumes that the yankees could just sign Johan at the end of 08 is misguided. This guy is never gonna see free agency, aces rarely do.
my guess is that the 3rd player will be AJAX, tabata, or horne… ive heard that the twins freaking love ajax, who wouldn’t love 5 tool potential? this trade makes me sick
Yea who ever trades for him will lock him up with an extension, no doubt. Yanks better do the same
Yeah,. but Gene Michael also built the dynasty. Please, are you telling me you didn’t think Weaver was going to be an ace? At the time, there was every indication. I was a HUGE fan of that trade. But he couldn’t hack NY and it messed him up. That won’t be the case with Johan.
On another note, to clear up a few misconceptions:
All the reports say that the 3rd prospect would be a pitcher, so stop with the Tabata etc.
Johan is not declining steadily. Is WHIP has declined, but save for this last year, other stats have fluctuated. And Santana played his home games on turf, do you think Yankee Stadium and its real grass and fences that really help a lefty won’t fix some of that?
The Red Sox don’t NEED to make this trade. They have a solid rotation already. The Yankees, on the other hand, have ONE pitcher who can give them 200 innings next year, and 4 question marks. There is a different sense of desperation. The Red Sox aren’t driving up any price, read the articles, it says they KNOW the Sox package wouldn’t have gotten it done. Its apples and oranges–The Sox have the luxury of withholding their best pitching prospect b/c they don’t need Johan.
Finally, just think about how awesome this will be: weekend series in the Stadium. Beckett vs Santana, Wang vs. DIce-K, and Joba vs Felon…That is great stuff
One more thing. If the Sox rumor is true and they WILL include Jacoby (which I doubt, and I think he is overrated anyways, but for another day), and/or the Twins demand anything more, then the Yanks HAVE to say no. It should be Hughes, Melky, and Clippard take it or leave it.
I’m wrong most of the time, but I strongly felt Weaver was a bad move b\c of his K per innings – the Yanks thought they were getting a power pitcher but one look at his stats should have told them otherwise.
Also, I blamed Torre the most for that deal as he was the main driver of it – he didn’t think Lilly had the gut to be a good pitcher and didn’t like his stuff. He loved Weaver – enuf said.
Imagine if the Yanks just slated Lilly as the #4/5 guy, how much better off the Yanks would have been – no Weaver\Brown or Igawa – never mind the 5 or 6 guys we dealt.
Zack, I agree with everything you say except:
Hughes, Melky, Betemit… is better than Lester, Ellsbury, Lowrie
Adding Ellsbury changes nothing. The Sox, if they’re serious, have to up the offer to include Buchholz, Ellsbury, Lowrie. I don’t see that happening.
Heres food for thought…how close would austin Jackson be to the majors? If the yanks dont get a CF, maybe a AJAX comes up around July? I’m not sure how possibler this is, I dunno what minor league level he is on yet…
I think there’s something to this. It just depends how he starts out in AA. But based on recent Yankee history, if they’re winning and getting production from Gardner and Damon, then they leave Ajax alone until 2009.
He would have to be lights out from day one.
Ajax has 3 ABs above high A. To jump from A to MLB in 250 ABs he would have to be absolutely phenomenal…like 1.000 OPS phenomenal in AA to start the season, and .900 OPS phenomenal in SWB for at least a month. It’s not impossible, but it’s not bloody likely.
More likely, Gardner gets the callup first, followed by Ajax in September or ’09.
No, I never thought Weaver was going to be an ace… Stick was amazing in the 90’s but the yank pitching moves this decade, have, well, sucked– weaver, contreas, javier vazquez, kevin brown, Pavano, Wright, Farnsworth, Not resigning Andy after 03′, etc
I’m just saying if stick is in favor of this it doesnt make the move a slam dunk or a flop
Whoever signs Santana is going to sign him to an extension. There will be no free agency unless he stays a Twinkie and I don’t see that happening.
And seriously, I can’t see how anyone is knocking Stick. In a ten year period the man brought in three HOFers (Jeter, Mo, Jorge) and two almost HOFers (Pettitte, Bernie). My god, if you want to know why they had a dynasty, you start with those five names.
By the way, who did they lose in the Weaver trade? Or the Vazquez trade? Or the Unit trade? Or the Brown trade? It’s absurd to try to criticize this trade based on those.
More questions: who will play center field? why isn’t Arod’s contract finalized yet?
Ajax hasn’t played regularly over High A ball, he’ll be starting the year in trenton
The moves sucked but who did they give up of value? Juan Rivera and Ted Lily? I can live with that level of sucking.
The only mistake in my opinion is giving up on Vazquez too soon. But he’s a league average innings muncher and nothing more.
Yeah, AJax is at least a year and a half away. As he should be, no need to rush him. CF will either be manned by a combo of Damon and Gardner or by a FA
One more for Zach,
My outlook for the Yanks is beyond 08 – it is complicated b\c Mo and Jorge aren’t going to be at the top of their game much longer, but I’d rather the Yanks develop the kids over having to pay 150+ mil to Santana.
If that means the Sox win another WS, so be it, even with Santana the Yanks probably won’t be the favorite to win the division.
We still have a suspect pen and almost no defense – save for Melk and Cano and an offense that punishes the bad teams and is very beatable come October.
This idea that Santana is the missing piece is wrong – we have missing pieces (no pen, flawed and aging corner ofers, no 1st baseman) and the more prudent (and less sexy) solution is to try and keep the youth and develop it.
yanks spend 200 a year every year and havent won a title while the sox have won two- sorry, I for one cant live with that level of sucking
Sorry, replied to the wrong post, Njax.
I assume they’d give Damon a chance to win back CF (His range is above average), and they’d have Gardner start every so often. Plus he’s useful off the bench.
A-Rod, Mo, and Molina they’re waiting on after the Rule 5 draft.
i like the analyze this reference in the post below
let gardner play
I could see the twins pushing to get Kennedy included now and then “settling” for Horne. They cannot trade Hughes and Kennedy or Horne.
But I don’t know if the yankees will be willing to walk away from the table now. And if they aren’t willing to walk away then who knows what the Twins will hold them up for.
If it now “came down to” giving up Horne as the marginal price for getting Santana would the yankees say no?
I’m not so sure.
I think if they get Santana, they try for Jones on a 1 year deal or try to get Rowand to come off his 5 year 60 mil price.
I think Damon’s age, wear and tear and multiple injuries spell the end of his CF days.
You don’t sign A-Rod, Mo, Jorge, Santana and try to patch CF – especially with two young guys and two non K pitchers in the rotation (Moose and Wang).
Hank’s spending like a drunken sailor, I think he’ll go for broke if we trade Melk.
Damon’s range is still excellent. And Gardner could supplement him, and the lineup, well.
I’m not a fan of either Rowand or Jones. And I don’t think they’re needed.
The problem with Damon in CF is the same as the problem with Giambi at 1B — if he plays there every day, the likelihood of him staying healthy and productive with the bat goes down significantly.
I haven’t read thru all of the 240 comments, so I don’t know if someone has linked to this Jayson Stark article yet. Anyway, I don’t wanna trade any of the big 3, but this article does a good job of showing how good Santana has actually been the past 4 years. Check it, pretty damn good:
As Dominating as it gets
everytime a runner takes off from 1st to thrid on a single to center i cringe….damon needs to get a friggin arm out there in center
Sure, but that hasn’t changed in four or five years. It’s always been bad. And they just have to work around it.
Plus, I think Gardner could be an excellent stop gap and in the 9 hole.. His SB numbers (against the same catchers and teams) are better than Ellsbury (who we’ve seen is blazing).
the question is…can matsui hack it out in left for 150 games a year?
How can you say we have no defense outside of Melky/Cano when we committed the 3rd fewest errors (88) in the AL this year? Damon showed he plays an above average LF with his great range, Abreu till has speed and a gun in RF and besides that first week Jeter where had those 5 errors due to the bad weather he would’ve had 13-14 errors (18 errors for real) which wouldve placed him only behind Orlando Cabrera amongst AL Shortstops with the fewest errors that started more than 100 games. Also who can argue that Alex Rodriguez wasnt deserving of a Gold Glove this year?
Again, Im still out here hoping that The Red Sox did put in Ellsbury and the Twins do come back to us asking for more and we balk at that. I NEVER want to see Hughes be included in any deal and I really dont want Tabata/AJAX in any deal either.
Lack of errors does not a good fielder make.
Jeter is undoubtedly one of the worst SS in MLB defensively — “up the middle past a diving Jeter” has become a cliche. He has absolutely no range to his left. Balls that go by him untouched are routine plays for many SS.
Abreu is wall shy, and has no throwing accuracy. Other than that he’s serviceable.
A-Rod is slightly above average at 3B.
Posada is well below average at C. He is terrible at blocking balls in the dirt, and he drops too many foul tips that would have been Ks.
Damon is average in LF — balancing out his defense vs. his rubber band arm.
First base? I don’t know. :-)
You pretty much nailed it concerning D on all those guys and also with Damon staying healthy as a CFer – I hope the Yanks FO sees it as clearly.
A-Rod’s ZR and RF leave alot to be desired but he’s not the biggest issue.
Yanks probably would be better off moving Jeter to CF now if Melk goes.
Yo, where’s Mike A been at?
Anyone feel that if Pettitte were to announce is return that the Yankees would instantly back off of trading Hughes or at least be inclined to?
Yeah. Hopefully, Pettitte says he’s coming back. But the Yanks obviously think he’s going to retire. This is going to be a very painful trade.
Ok so let me rephrase it to “strongly consider” taking Hughes off the table…
I still think the answer is no. Santana is to Pettitte as Beckett is to Schilling now. There’s no real comparison in quality.
I think you’re looking at the “veteran anchor” quality Andy brings to the rotation, but I don’t think that has much to do with the reason we want Santana. Santana is an ace — Pettitte is not.
what the stark article say, its an insider article and I refuse to pay for that…
I think 200+ comments pretty much proves that Hughes/Santana is more important than the whole A-Rod debacle.
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