Yanks may set a Tuesday deadline

Thoughts on Melky, Phil and Johan
Won't get fooled again

In the same piece in which he notes that the Red Sox may include Jacoby Ellsbury in a deal with the Twins, Buster Olney reports that the Yanks may set a Tuesday deadline for their current trade offer. So it seems that, one way or another, this drama will play itself out over the next 48 hours.

Thoughts on Melky, Phil and Johan
Won't get fooled again
  • Rob

    Thank god.

  • http://wwwmyankeegm.blogspot.com YankeeGM

    All things considered, I believe Erik Bedard is a much better option for the Yanks. My reasoning can be found here – www. Yankeegm.blogspot.com

    • cjc

      the same Bedard coming off one big year(ended on the DL) who is 1 week older than Santana has a very long injury history and plays for a team that would never in a million years trade with the team Angelos hates more than any other

      yeah he’s a wayyyyyy better option

  • http://yankeesetc.blogspot.com/ Travis G.

    if the trade doesn’t happen before then, it’ll give Boston a lot more leverage bc they’re not up against the Yanks. of course, we know how simply ultimatums are thrown aside with Hank.

    what IS the current Yankee offer anyway? Hughes, Melky and who?

  • The Scout

    I had initially favored Bedard, but I am persuaded now that he is the poorer choice, certainly NOT worth Hughes.

    I don’t really buy the ultimatum nonsense. Yes, the Yankees could decline to continue the conversation and withdraw the offer. But, if Santana is not dealt, nothing prevents a resumption later, esp. as the trade deadline approaches next summer.

  • E-ROC

    I think it’s Hughes, Melky, and Gonzales. I’m not sure though. It may have change as this trade conversation has been so fluid. The Twins were after IPK along with Hughes and Melky, but has since backed off.

  • PsiFighter37

    Same article says that the Red Sox are not offering Ellsbury in the deal. I really see this as just an escalating game of brinksmanship at this point. I’m happy that the Yankees set the firm deadline.

    • PsiFighter37

      Should read ‘are now offering Ellsbury’; pardon the typo.

  • zack

    Ultimatums are just bargaining chips in the end. A way to get the Twins to their offer, which will continue to stand. Even if the Yanks don’t do it, they will turn elsewhere and most likely offer Hughes for Haren or the like…

  • gcvanbrynt

    If hughes is on the table we might be able to do better than santana. Talent wise santana is hard to beat but innings pitched, age, and price are all negatives. how about some one like peavy. He has years left on his contract, but san diego will eventually have to deal with not being able to sign him. Hughes and Melky and a prospect might sound good to them. another possibility is getting ben sheets on a contract dump. I bet we can get him on the cheap

    • steve (different one)

      nope, Pads are extending Peavy. 3 years, $17M/year. they are working on it now.

  • http://mrsteinbrenner.blogspot.com BillyBalla

    Casey states “One last point on Cano vs. Hughes, and then I SWEAR I’m done with it”

    Can you please read Mark Feinsand’s quote on Pinstripe Alley. Read his quote on the top of the page and than please read all the comments. As you will find out more Yankee fans than not are reluctantly willing to part with Cano over Hughes if they were forced to choose one with the obvious reasons I posted as well as the reasons in this article. Please read it and Than, maybe we can move on. My hopes is they keep both players and the Dodgers swoop in and take Santana. My hopes are also that we explore other avenues such as a Eric Bedard. Is Bedard a Santana? No! I do believe he has unhittable electric stuff though, and he is also a lefty. We will be able to save a Hughes and a mjority of our prized prospects by offering a Kennedy and Melky or maybe a lesser prospect.

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.

      Stop posting the same stuff in multiple threads please.

    • steve (different one)

      who cares what yankee fans think? there are a large percentage of them who would take Brosius over A-Rod.

      if ANYONE from the Yankees agreed with you, Cano would be on the table. but he’s not.

      • usty

        HAHA. You mean Scott “I have a monument in Monument Park, oh wait I don’t” Brosius.

  • The Scout

    First reaction: I do not believe in NL pitchers. Most have made poor transitions to the AL. Peavy hasn’t shown much in play-off appearances. I would keep Hughes.

    • zack

      Don’t read into small samples. Just because a guy hasn’t done great in 2 or so starts means jack crap. Watch Peavy pitch throughout the season as I do here in SD, and you’ll be singing a different tune…

  • http://yankeesetc.blogspot.com/ Travis G.

    it took a while for the Yanks to add Hughes to the Santana deal. he’s the only guy even somewhat acceptable to trade hughes for. no way should Hughes be traded for Santana, even straight up. look at their rookie seasons for one: Hughes had better numbers across the board in the AL East (vs. Haren in the NL Central) a year younger than Haren was.

    • http://yankeesetc.blogspot.com/ Travis G.

      that should read “no way should hughes be traded for HAREN straight up.”

  • Jeff

    I think if the Sox hold to not putting Lester and Elsbury together we have a much better offer on the table. Again I don’t think the Twins can make a deal without bringing back a decent starter – unless thay have someone lined up with a move of Nathan. Moving Nathan before the start of the season doesn’t really make too much sense in my opinion.
    I see Elsbury being a really good CF for the future of the Sox so moving him is a big move but having a one two Beckett / Santana front might be worth it… Like Schilling / Johnson and to think of their line up to back that up – I wouldn’t like our chances against that. (Although I’m not saying Santana is as good as Johnson was) Still it would be rough.
    That said I really don’t hink the Sox want to move Elsbury. Their CF would go back to Crisp and Manny has just one year left.
    Also as its been mentioned all this could just be the Sox trying to make us do something really crazy like adding Tabata or Ajax. Both or at least one of them could top Elsbury with a little development.

    • zack

      Both. They clearly clearly want Santana, so all that Sox just trying to up the ante crap can finally cease. But they obviously want to make the Yanks pay if they can’t have him. Maybe, just maybe, its the Yanks who have been upping the ante all along? Nah…

      In any case, a rotation of Beckett, Santana, Dice-K, Felon, and Lester (not in the offer now) will be far and away better than one of Wang, Joba, Hughes, kennedy, and Moose for the next 5 years. Face it….And then the Yanks will pretty much be forced to get haren or the like, which will probably cost Hughes anyways.

      So ask yourself, are you comfortable watching Santana go to the Sox and then seeing Hughes being sent off for the lesser pitcher Haren?

      • steve (different one)

        the yankees will NOT trade Hughes for Haren.

        just because the yankees reluctantly put Hughes on the table for Santana does NOT mean they willing to start offering him around.

        i think it says exactly the opposite. that there was one pitcher and one pitcher only they would consider trading him for: Johan Santana.

  • Tripp

    Ellsbury is on the table according to ESPN.

  • http://yankeesetc.blogspot.com/ Travis G.

    fine, let the Sawx have him. i’d rather pitch to coco than ellsbury. we keep Hughes, no problem there. i would just HATE to now see the Yanks up their offer AGAIN. enough is enough.

    like Billy, i hope the Dodgers swoop in and take him.

  • Jeff

    Again think the Sox could be trying to stretch our offer… gotta keep Tabata and Ajax out. Be smart Cash.

  • dan

    Twins like Ellsbury more than Hughes, according to Kepner. I don’t know how that’s possible. There’s no way that the Twins new GM is only looking at MLB performance with Ellsbury. The guy has 13 homeruns in his professional career, spanning 283 games. If Ellsbury can be the centerpiece, then Hughes and Gardner should get it done. I think they’re holding the Yankees to a higher standard than the Red Sox.

    • steve (different one)

      do you think Gardner has trade value?

  • http://riveravenuewatch.blogspot.com Mikek NYY

    Sounds like Masterson, Ellsbury, Lowrie, and another prospect (Bowden?) from the Olney article. If that`s what it is then Boston’s giving up enough that i`m okay with the Twins accepting that. Then no Boston competition for Bedard or Haren should make it easier to trade for them.

  • waswhining

    This is working out perfectly.

    Twins now “unimpressed with the Hughes offer” (f— them, really) and demand another Class A prospect IPK, Jackson, Horne, etc. Sawks are adamant that their two overhyped prospects Buccholtz and Ellsbury will not be included with Lester. In what commentators will claim as the worst baseball move of new century, Bill Smith, enamored by thoughts of Delmon Young in his lineup decides to play another half season with Santana. The latter, true to form, starts the season slowly while Melky, stung by off season trade talks, hits .398 in April and May. Hughes and IPK are a combined 34 and 7 by mid July and along with Joba were recently featured on the cover of SI under the headline The Holy Trinity.

    Trade talks resume in July.

    Alan Horne and Austin Jackson for Danny Haren anyone? Join me on the next thread.

  • It’sMeSNITCHES!!!

    Does anyone think that if the Yankees back out of the trade talks- that the Twins will just hold on to him for one more year? With the Yankees backing off, the Sox might take out Ellsbury from trade talks and continue with their initial offer (Lester, Crisp, 2 minor leaguers) and the Twins will just hold on to Santana. I doubt the Twins would settle. Could that scenario play out or just wishful thinking?

  • http://riveravenuewatch.blogspot.com Mike NYY

    What if the Twins wait out the deadline to make a decision and decide they like the Boston offer better and then Santana uses his NTC? The Yankees then come back into the mix and make a reduced offer. Probably won’t happen but still…..

  • Jeff

    People who keep mentioning Haren or Beddard both of whom are not as good as Santana are dreaming if they think we can get the A’s of O’s to give up any less than we are offering up the Twins especially with both those pitchers locked into fair priced contract for two more years.
    Forget it if you think teams will be lining up to give their top talent away – best chance is with Santana.

  • http://riveravenuewatch.blogspot.com Mike NYY

    Alan Horne and Austin Jackson for Danny Haren anyone? Join me on the next thread.

    Not enough

    Kennedy and Jackson for Haren? Maybe.

  • http://riveravenuewatch.blogspot.com Mike NYY

    Bedard is a FA after the season

    • steve (different one)

      after 2009.

  • save hughes

    i just heard a rumor that the sox might trade lester to the brew crew… if that shit happens take hughes out of the question pleeeeeeez


  • Chofo

    If the Twins plan to trade Nathan too, why not take one of Melancon, Cox, Whelan or Sanchez to be their future closer? None of those are untouchable as part of the package and have more potential than Gonzalez.

  • Jewish Jackhammer

    Is Santana and Beckett better than Schilling and Johnson? Are they better than Smoltz, Maddux, and Glavine in ’96 and ’99? Maybe they are. However, if the yankees can put 4 great starters out there in a 7 game series they can do what they did to the other two “impossible to beat” rotations. Namely, come within an error of beating Schilling and RJ and demolish the Brave’s trio of hall of famers.

    I think the best reason to not make this deal is that Sabathia is on the market next year. Although, he is not Santana you get him for money and your first rounder. That kind of money and those types of prospects is too much for anyone player.

  • Jeff

    JJ: Did Schilling and RJ have a 1-9 like Boston? The Braves didn’t either did they?
    If I’m Boston I make the deal… leads me to believe they might. Think the money could be an issue but look what they dumped on Drew and Matsuzaka.
    If I’m the Twins I still say that Cash is giving them the best deal unless Buckholtz and Elsbury are packaged together.
    Think the Twins are hoping it escalates to that so we try to top with Cano and Hughes… better not happen. I’d be happier to watch Cano hit .330+ and see Hughes get 17 wins.
    Once the playoffs come you never know what can happen… we’ve won a game Santana pitched before. (I think – correct me if I’m wrong – weak memory)

  • http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=56352514 Jamal G

    I may very well be the lone wolf here but I think Pettitte is the key. Iam in the Save The Big 3 Camp, no doubt about it but if you think about it a 5-man rotation with The Big 3 and Wang/Mussina serving as the bookends is not very appealing seeing as how Kennedy is the only one that can even sniff 200 innings this year. Is that enough to make me reconsider trading Hughes? Hell No but it does make you wonder about how much Pettitte is the big key here.

    Has there ever been a trade in this Yankees era that has brought about such division within the Yankee Faithful?

  • Ivan


    I saw it and it just toooooo hard to believe. Why in the hell would they trade a big time shortstop in Hardy and their ace Sheets for a Lester and Lugo who stink and take his salary. That is just ridiculous.

    That is just a awful rumor there.

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.

      This link’s been posted already in this thread in fact. There’s no basis in fact for that rumor at all. It’s stupid.

    • zack

      That is the definition of a fan pipe dream

  • The Fallen Phoenix

    Jeff, the Yankee lineup as currently constructed actually has some pretty good numbers against Santana (as much as those numbers matter–it’s a pretty small sample size, so I don’t necessarily put too much stock in it). The same is actually true of Beckett, too: the Yankees didn’t knock him around last season, but he didn’t shut the Yankees down over the course of the regular season the same way he was shutting down teams in the playoffs.

    I hesitate to say the addition of Santana would automatically put the Red Sox over the top (likewise the Yankees): Lowell had a career year, Manny, Varitek and Ortiz are each a year older, Youkilis probably isn’t going to get any better…sure, there are a few players on that Red Sox team who can get better (particularly their pitching, though I don’t think Okajima has another season like last year), but unsurprisingly, both the Red Sox and Yankees have similar question marks going into next year as far as position players go.

    Santana would easily make the Red Sox the team to beat in the AL East (if they aren’t already, which it’s hard to objectively reject considering they did win it last year), but does it open up an advantage greater than five games between the Yankees and Red Sox (the effective difference between them last year)? It’s really, really difficult to say.

  • Ron

    Here is the best way (from a Yankees perspective) that this thing can play out. Sux win the trade, but are unable to sign Santana, so the trade is negated. The Yanks then reduce their offer, and Minny decides to start the season w/ Johan. The Yanks sign him as a FA next off season, and start 2009 w/ a rotation of Santana, Hughes, Wang, Joba & IPK.

  • Travis

    Twins’ fans are starting to panic a little, thinking a good trade is slipping away. A new post on the Star Tribune site, where they have been following this.

    accept the yanks trade.

    you cant tell me ellsbury is going to be that much better then melky.. elsburry had a great final month. so what?

    we need a stud pitcher.. heck, get hughes, melky and the duncan kid that plays 3rd.. but do it now

  • Alvaro

    I’d love to see Santana end up elsewhere (even Boston) but given the FO’s pitiful negotiating performance this offseason I believe they’ll cave and offer another quality prospect.

    I still don’t think the Red Sox are serious and the Yankees are just chasing their own tail.

    • zack

      Pitiful? Hows that? Because they spent a lot of $ to retain who they wanted? B/c they gave A-rod a contract he would have gotten from them before but had to come crawling back to them? B/c they wouldn’t give into Torre’s demands? Nice try

      • Alvaro

        I say pitiful because there was no need to throw 3 yrs at Mariano and they had ARod by the nuts and still gave him a 10 year deal that will be an albatross around their necks. Olney’s blog yesterday points out many around the league thought the Yanks could have gotten ARod on a lesser deal after the PR fiasco of his opt out.

        I’m happy they signed these guys but each contract is too long.

  • CB

    How do the twins evaluate the strengths of their own system? And do they see Ellsbury as a “special” player?

    I think those are the two issues this is getting down to.

    For most teams a package centered around Hughes vs. Ellsbury wouldn’t be much to think about given the lack of pitching in baseball and the overall talent level of the players.

    But the overwhelming strength of the Minnesota system is young pitching. Losing Santana particularly after Garza would be very difficult but they may be willing to ride out next year with the young staff they have.

    They really don’t have many position player prospects. Ben Revere may be their best one.

    If they could get Ellsbury and Lowerie in on trade I could see how they would be interested. People here may think Ellsbury is overrated but that doesn’t matter. The twins clearly think very highly of him and so do most people in baseball. Many consider him to be a top 15 type talent.

    • zack

      Plus, Ellsbury was born for turf..at least for the next 2 years

      • CB

        Vert good point. He will fly there. I heard somewhere that Ellsbury ran a 4.27 40 yard dash in high school. That’s the same time Deion Sanders did at the NFL combines as I remember.

        • giselle

          i wonder what brett gardner’s 40-yd dash is clocked at… does anyone know?

        • http://yankeesetc.blogspot.com/ Travis G.

          totally off topic: Deion actually ran a 4.17 40!

  • Travis

    A dream put forth by a Twins’ fan on the Star-Tribune blog:

    Kevin S. says:

    December 2nd, 2007 at 3:41 pm

    My preference is to keep Johan but if our ownership holds to form and prefers not to compete… NY-Hughes,Kennedy & Tabata or no deal. You may sub Cano for Kennedy.

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.

      Good thing the GMs and other team execs are running the show.

  • The Scout

    Which only proves that if fans in the two cities were making trades, there would never be a deal!

  • Jeff

    Ron: First off a team isn’t going to put out an offer without looking at signing Santana at the assumed price… probably going to haggle to get it under the 150mil but Santana is probably going to try to get it. If the Yanks win the bid I’d say he’ll get a tad more (See Clemens). Sox less (Look at how they got Boras to bend with Matsuzaka)
    Fallen Phoenix: Sure it might not lock it up but every year I go into the season looking at the starting five and it usually gives me a sense of how things will end up. This year even if we didn’t get Santana I would say we’re in a much better position than last year. Yet if I were to think of Santana Beckett Matsuzaka Bucholtz Schilling and compared with Wang Hughes Joba Kennedy Mussina I think it would be a very tough task. That said both teams should make the playoffs.
    In the playoffs… sure Wang could beat Santana, Hughes or Joba could beat Beckett… but it would take some good luck Maybe A-Rod Jeter and Cano pour it on but I still think it will be a lot to ask. But as Torre has explained things have to go right come post season and quite possibly things could go wrong for them and right for us for a change.
    Fingers crossed but I’d feel a lot better if Santana was on our side.

  • blah

    The Yankees are not going to get Haren or Bedard if they pass on Santana. Plan B is “stick with the kids”, not “find the next best starter.”

    Due to his contract demands, the market for Santana right now is limited to NYY and Bos and perhaps a few other teams. Because Haren will have three cheap years, every other team will potentially be in competition for Haren, which will drive up the price. In addition, Minnesota faces a lot more pressure to trade Santana right now to ensure an adequate return – Oakland has no such pressure.

    If the Yankees are going to trade the kids, they should get the better, less costly (in terms of prosects) option in Santana. It makes no sense to pass on Santana and then give up more in terms of prospects for the lesser Haren. The same logic applies to Bedard.

    • zack

      How do you know that? Especially when all reports indicate the WILL go after Haren, ESPECIALLY if the Sox land Santana

      • zack

        But I agree, if the Yanks lose on Santana, haren is not a good choice at likely the same cost and a lot less of a pitcher…

      • casey

        Haren is not getting traded unless someone who loses out on the Santana sweepstakes panics BIG TIME. As Blah said above, and as I said yesterday, Haren has more value to a team like the A’s than he does to a team like us or the Sox. In contrast, Santana’s biggest value to the Twins is as trade bait, because they can’t afford him at market price. Similarly, the A’s could not afford the kind of player they’d need to make up for the loss of Haren. Why would they trade Haren for the Hughes + Melky package we’re talking about sending to Minny? Haren is already what we hope Hughes will be: young, cheap, and good. Billy Beane is one of the smartest execs in the league, he is not going to make a move that will immediately make his team worse for the next 2-3 years for the *hope* that Hughes materializes. We shouldn’t think about Haren until he is a lot closer to free agency and being unaffordable for his current team.

  • Jeff

    id everyone hear Blah – He’s right.
    One more comment – I think the Twins are just trying to twist us. Right now we have the best deal on the table with Hughes and Melky + B player. I think this is a better option than Lester Elsbury for them – they should know it too.
    For Boston to include Bucholtz and Elsbury you’d tip you’re hat but I don’t think the Sox would go that far.
    They seem more level headed about spending and I think a deal like that would be out of the Epstein character. (Although I was shocked at the Drew deal – but finishing third will do that – comming off a WS shouldn’t) Also, if I were to think of Epstein looking at the Yanks he might like to see us saddle ourselves with the price of this move. You’d pretty much have to think we would be at the limit of what we could spend. Think this year would just be a case of sucking it up until Giambi Pavano come off the books. If our payroll was as high 2009 I’d be very surprised.

  • bkight13

    My wish list:

    Pass on Santana for Hughes, Melky and +prospect
    Keep the Big 3 in any other deal(Haren/Bedard)
    Keep Melky until we lose Matsui and Damon and Tabata/Jackson are ready
    Use other pieces to get a 2/3 starter…innings eater
    Go after an ace next year at the deadline or FA
    Get a lefty for the pen(Mahay, Marte, Fuentes)

  • zack

    Did everyone else also notice in the Olney article that the Sox had ALREADY offered Ellsbury earlier in a lesser package?

    That, if nothing else, is definitive proof that the Sox were in it from the get go, and the whole stupid notion that the Yanks “got played” by the Sox is pretty much caput

  • giselle

    the twins are probably desperate to trade santana now. no more “let’s go into the season with him if we don’t get every top prospect we want”.


    • bkight13

      I thought he only gets the NTC if he finished in the top 3 for 2007 Cy Young

  • Dimaggio5

    Do you think Cashman & co. will hold firm to the deadline? If they pull out do the Sux automatically win this? Sux fans are becoming more obnoxious by the minute, if that is even possible.

  • Jeff

    Think the Twins are standing on sand now that Santana won’t waive his NTC come season start.
    If Santana really wanted to be tough he could dictate the trade by only accommodating the team he wants to go to. It would be nice to take Hughes off the table with the idea that Johan says I’m going to the Yanks for the big contract which surely awaits so take IPK or take a draft pick.
    When you think about it the player with the NTC really has the upper hand and if he were smart he’d guess where he could get the best contract and try to make his future brighter by not forcing that team to lose their top prospects. Really the offerer only has to beat the draft pick. I don’t know why agents and players don’t try to play that hand – besides the fact that it would make them a villian to the team they’ve been playing for.
    Also I wonder how hard it would be to get caught tamering if it came to a smart agent putting out a feeler that says Hughes is worth this much to the team I want a small piece of that added onto the salary you might pay… OK I’m way out in fantasy land now think I’ll stop.

  • LiveFromNewYork

    The unknowns are will the team that “wins” be able to work out an extension with Santana and will Santana agree to be traded to the winning team.

  • giselle

    I hope they hold to the deadline, and i keep reading different reports that say monday, not tuesday. also, i completely agree that sux fans are getting to be too obnoxious. and really, really dumb. read what one of them posted on a red sox blog:
    Re: Ellsbury added to Santana Deal

    Fear not!
    There’s still a way out.
    If the Twins call our bluff (which is what I think this move is), we can simply offer Santana 4 years for say… 4 million dollars. haha. he will obviously refuse and not wave his no-trade clause and we keep jacoby.

    meanwhile over in yankee ville, i bet young hank is getting ready to offer a package of 2 or three of the following players
    Robinson Cano
    Phil Hughes
    Melky Cabrera
    Joba Chamberlin
    Ian Kennedy

    plus some other over-hyped prospect

    by Schulz on Sun Dec 02, 2007 at 09:10:50 PM EDT

    i’m guessing the dude doesnt realize that if that happened, the yankees would be lowering their offer, not raising it…