Hall Adds Goose

Mackanin lands in New York
How the Yanks should build a franchise

If Bruce Sutter can do it, Goose can do it better. The former Yanks reliever was elected to the baseball Hall of Fame today. He was on 466 of 543 ballots, or 85.8 percent. Jim Rice, Andre Dawson, and Bert Blyleven were the next three. Rice came very close at 72.2 percent, just 14 votes shy.

Mackanin lands in New York
How the Yanks should build a franchise
  • http://yankeesetc.blogspot.com/ Travis G.

    good for Goose. is it me or have the voters gotten more selective the past few years?

  • http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.

    I’d love to know what about Jim Rice made him that much closer to the Hall of Fame this year. His numbers and relative quality compared to others from his day haven’t improved since 2007, 2006, 2005, etc. Tim Raines is much more deserving.

  • Stephen

    Good for goose. But only 24% for Raines? That’s an embarrassment.

  • keith

    Didn’t you hear? Some team from Boston won the World Series.

  • Count Zero

    It’s about damn time. Congrats Goose!

    Raines at least got enough to stay on the ballot.

    Blyleven deserves better too. At least he did better than Jack Morris who definitely doesn’t deserve to be in.

  • Bo

    Rice getting close is a joke.

    The guy was a one dimensional player for too short a period a time and his numbers dont stack up with anyone in the Hall.

    Not putting Raines in is a travesty. How do some of these brain dead scribes get a vote?

    • Whitey14

      Have you looked at the numbers of the outfielders in the HOF? Please go and do so and you’ll see that he outperformed nearly half of them. Don’t come on here and make comments about things that you haven’t properly researched. There are 72.2% of the eligible writers who think differently than you and they have the complete stats and comparisons to back up the argument. You’re just biased because Rice was a Red Sox player. Be honest with yourself, if he’d been a yankee you’d be arguing for him, not against him wouldn’t you?

  • Ron

    I happy for Goose, but I don’t get why Rice still isn’t in. His numbers may not look like the numbers we see now (PEDs?), but for that time, they are very good. George Brett made it on the 1st ballot. Brett’s career 305/369/487. Rice’s career 298/352/502. That’s not a significant difference. And not many (okay, not many before the steroid era) have had a year like he had in 1978. Maybe my memory has faded with the years, but I remember him being the guy on the Sux you didn’t want to see in a crucial situation in the late ’70s early 80’s.

    • steve (different one)

      come on Ron, you’re better than that. i know you understand the difference between a good 3Bman and a crappy LFer.

      i also know you understand park factors and era adjustments.

      here are their 10 best OPS+ seasons:
      Brett: 203/178/158/153/149/148/144/144/142/141
      Rice: 157/154/147/141/136/130/127/123/122/120

      Jim Rice wasn’t 1/4 the player Brett was. it’s kindof embarrassing to even compare them.

      • Whitey14

        Come on Steve, get real here. If you want to argue that Rice doesn’t belong in the Hall you’ll find plenty of folks to agree with you, but if you’re going to call him a crappy Left Fielder and say he doesn’t even merit consideration, you’ll get laughed off the site, even by yankees fans. Jim Rice was the dominant offensive player of his era. He hit 30 point higher than Reggie Jackson, struck out almost 1,000 times less and was at least similar defensively and Jackson’s in why, because he performed great in the postseason? To me that’s not enough. More home runs than DiMaggio, a better average than Mantle, more triples, yes triples, than Sandberg. All deserving HOFers. Brett’s in the HOF because he’s one of the greatest 3B’s of all time. Rice compares comparably to SEVERAL current HOF OF’s. Be serious if you’re going to argue against Rice. It’s not his fault he hit in great line-ups that helped him produce, I believe the same could be said about many yankees in the Hall, but it doesn’t mean they don’t deserve to be there. It’s not fair to hold it against a red sox player because your biased. Argue with your what’s in your head, not in your heart and you’ll at least sound intelligent.

        • steve (different one)

          just to clarify, when i said “crappy left fielder”, i was not saying Jim Rice was a crappy player who played left field.

          i was very specifically addressing the positional adjustment made for their DEFENSIVE contributions.

          i meant he was a below average DEFENSIVE left-fielder and therefore you cannot compare him to a 3Bman with a gold glove.

          still, i stand by my statement that comparing Rice to Brett is a joke. Brett is an inner circle Hall of Famer. Rice is borderline at best.

        • steve (different one)

          He hit 30 point higher than Reggie Jackson, struck out almost 1,000 times less and was at least similar defensively and Jackson’s in why, because he performed great in the postseason?

          talk about cherry picking.

          Reggie vs. Rice
          563 HRs vs. 382 HRs
          1702 RBI vs. 1451 RBI
          463 doubles vs. 373 doubles
          139 OPS+ vs. 128 OPS+
          123.8 WARP3 vs. 83.2 WARP3
          16 seasons of OPS+ over 120 vs. 10 seasons
          183 double-plays vs. 315 double plays
          and yes, 4 rings to 0 rings

          Reggie vs. Rice is an absolute massacre.

          • Whitey14

            Now wait a minute Steve…I’ve read a lot of your posts and I know you’re better than this. A major knock against Rice is his lack of longevity. Would you like to divide the career totals you’ve highlighted by 15 years for Rice (you can’t count 1974, 67 AB’s does not constitute a season) and by 20 years for Jackson. Here are just a few of the “cherry picked” seasonal averages for each
            HR Jax 28 Rice 25.5
            2B’s Jax 23 Rice 25
            RBI Jax 85 Rice 97
            Runs Jax 78 Rice 83
            K’s Jax 130 Rice 95
            TB Jax 242 Rice 275
            OPS Career Jax .846 Rice .854
            Rice was a better offensive player because he wasn’t just swinging from the heels. He was actually a hitter and a great one at that. I was wrong about the career batting averages though. Rice hit .298 vs. Jackson’s .262. He was 36 points better….I agree Jackson was incredible in October, but what the hell was he doing the rest of the time. I’ll tell you, he was hitting .262 and loafing in the field. Typical million dollar body and 50 cent head….

            So you can’t just look at overall totals and say a player is better than another. Give me Rice’s average season over Jackson’s any day.

            With regard to World Series titles, it’s not Rice’s fault he played on several sox teams that had no pitching..he did hit .333 in his only world series.

            Defensively, by the way, Rice’s .980 FP is better than Jackson’s .967 FP and his 137 assists in 1543 games in the OF are better than Jackson’s 133 in 2102 games in the OF. Also, I believe RF in the stadium is just as shallow as LF in Fenway without the difficult wall to play. I realize that may not be completely fair, but I’m not sure of the dimensions of KC, Oakland, Baltimore in relation to Fenway at the times Jackson played them. Sorry about that.

            Jackson made the HOF largely because he hit the 500+ HR and was incredible in October. He’s a lot like Yaz, high career numbers because of 20+ seasons played. His 2597 K’s mean he pretty much struck out for FIVE seasons in his career. Yikes!

            • steve (different one)

              OPS+ 139 vs. 128.

              those are rate stats. adjusted for ballpark.

              it’s Jackson in a landslide.

              • Whitey14

                So you’re going to base your whole argument on that one stat? Very weak Steve, very weak. Do you have any defenses to the seasonal averages at all? I’m guessing not because it would blow your whole theory of Jackson being better than Rice overall, huh? Swing and a miss Strike 3!

                • Moose

                  WHATTA BATTLE BETWEEN BLOG NERDS, I LOVE IT!!!! Both of you guys know your shit, kudos.

                • steve (different one)

                  no, it wouldn’t blow it out of the water. what is the basis for dividing the numbers by “seasons”? shouldn’t you divide by AB’s or normalize everything to a 162 game season?

                  also, i’m not sure i understand your argument. ok, let’s say Rice and Jackson are comparable on a “per season basis”. doesn’t the fact that Jackson did it for 5 additional seasons make him a much better player?

                  if Rice had 5 more good seasons, we wouldn’t be having this argument, would we? so, you are using the whole reason why Rice shouldn’t be the Hall of Fame (not enough great seasons) as the basis for your argument. doesn’t make sense.

                  it’s the same reason why i, as a huge mattingly fan, would never argue mattingly should be in the hall of fame. he didn’t have enough great seasons.

                  it’s that simple. i’m not arguing that Rice wasn’t good. i’m arguing that he wasn’t good long enough.

                  Reggie was.

                  and you can’t “average away” 190 extra HRs. those HRs happened. and yes, they are the difference between a HoFer and a borderline HoFer.

                  also, get back to me when a strikeout counts more than any other out. not sure why that matters. this argument is especially puzzling when arguing for someone who lead the league in double-plays 4 times and is 6th all-time.

                  • Whitey14

                    The argument Steve, is that to be eligible for the HOF, you need to participate in 10 Championship seasons (Please see the HOF website for other eligibility requirments). The argument that Rice didn’t do it long enough doesn’t hold water. He meets the eligibility requirement for the hall and people try to use only playing 15 seasons against him and that’s horse crap. Playing 5 more seasons doesn’t make you better than somebody else it just means YOU PLAYED LONGER. Longevity doesn’t equal skill my friend. If I leave the last post in our little debate, does that make me right and you wrong? Does that mean I was better than you because I did it longer? Jackson hit the magic number of 500 home runs and he’s in. I’m not arguing that he shouldn’t be in, but I am saying that Rice’s average season and Jackson’s average season were very similar and since both meet the eligibility requirments, both should be in. Strikeouts are worse than other outs (double and triple plays aside) because they don’t help move baserunners and therefore have negative value. Rice hit the ball hard when he played, for christ’s sake he broke multiple bats by check swinging, and if many balls were hit at infielders with a runner on 1st base so be it. If Reggie had put the ball in play more he’d have more doubleplays too, but he didn’t because he was always swinging for the fences. I averaged things out by season because just looking at career stats is extremely short sighted. I wouldn’t expect you to fall into that trap Steve. It’s why batting champions are decided by who has the best average and not the most hits. Just because Rice’s eyesight was going bad at an early age doesn’t mean he shouldn’t be in the Hall. Now I’m curious how you feel about Kirby Puckett and Sandy Koufax. They both had short careers, but are still deserving HOFers, or would you kick them out?

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.

      Your second sentence sums it up: Jim Rice should be in the Hall of Very Good, not the Hall of Fame.

  • Loweeel

    Ron, what position did Brett play? and what did Rice play? And where did Rice play half of his games?

    Brett had a higher OPS in what had to be a worse hitter’s park (as Fenway distorts everything) playing a much more difficult defensive position, and playing it well. Oh and let’s not forget that Brett’s edge in “OPS” is larger than it first appears, because OBP is 20% more valuable than SLG (again, not park-corrected). IIRC, his career was also longer, and his counting numbers were also more impressive for his position.

    • Ron

      Brett played 3rd, but aren’t 3rd basemen supposed to rake? Rice played left at Fenway, and he played it very well. And I never said Brett shouldn’t be in the HOF, I just compared his stats to Rice’s and question why Brett made it on the first ballot and Rice hasn’t made it in 14 years. I saw Rice play and he was the dominant LF in the AL during his era.
      It’s very difficult to judge a player you’ve never seen play just by the numbers. I never saw Scooter play, and his numbers certainly don’t appear to be worthy of the HOF, but men I’ve talked to who saw him play say otherwise. Ditto for Pee Wee Reese.

      • Whitey14

        Brett also played on astroturf which allows more ground balls to get through to the outfield for base hits which helps the average. I’m not arguing against Brett either, he was awesome and was, along with Schmidt, one of my two favorite 3B’s.

        Ron you’re obviously not a sox fan (I remember him being the guy on the Sux you didn’t want to see in a crucial situation in the late ’70s early 80’s), but it sure sounds like you’re able to view these things without a bias. That’s nice to see.

        With regard to Gossage, if he had played 1978 in Boston instead of New York, I don’t think there would have been a comeback, at least not all the way. He’s very deserving of the HOF and I’m happy for him. I’d like to see Graig Nettles join him someday.

      • steve (different one)

        left field in Fenway is probably the easiest defensive assignment in all of baseball.

        • Whitey14

          Come on Steve, put down the crack pipe. You just sound foolish now. With the scoreboard and the spaces between the different segments sending balls who the hell knows which direction, opposing LF’s fear that wall today much the same as they have for the last 70 years. Rice was the only player who came close to playing it as well as Yaz and he won Gold Gloves for it.
          I do recall Jackson butchering a couple of flyballs when the yanks lost to LA in 81 and I recall my dad saying with great disdain “it couldn’t happen to a bigger jerk” I guess the Hot Dog had some mustard in his eyes in that series…

  • Moose

    Horay for Goose!!! Now maybe he can stop being a baby and crying about not being in the Hall.

    Look, I’m a huge Yankee fan, and I like Goose a lot, but enough already. I’ve never seen a player (with the exception of Pete Rose) whine and complain more about not being in the Hall than Goose. And yes, I realize it was very sad when his Mom died and wasnt able to see him get in the Hall, but he lost a lot of my love when he publicly “insinuated” that he was a better closer than Rivera because…”no one did it like [he] did.”

    Gimme a break, Goose was good, but he was no Rivera, not even close actually. Yet every year, around December and January, all he does is publicly minimize Rivera’s greatness and accomplishments by making bullshit comparisons about how he had to get 5 and 6 outs on occassion whereas the “Modern Day” closer (i.e. his cute way of saying Rivera) only has to get 3.

    Ok Goose, I get it, you worked hard and had to get out of some big time jams. But please, try and save yourself the embarrasment of comparing yourself to Rivera and hinting that your more accomplished and better than him. Goose really took away his luster with me. Todays admission was more of a relief that I won’t have to read anymore assinine statements from Goose about not being admitted moreso than him actually being admitted.

    • LiveFromNewYork

      nobody did do it like Goose. His innings number was extraordinary. He and Mo pitch in different eras. Mo pitches and is coddled the way they should have been in Goose’s day…but Goose was a gritty gutsy player who came out and pitched when he was needed for multiple innings.

      I love Mo and this is nothing against him but I think that had he pitched in the late 70s he would have had to have lost something long ago. I think that Goose resents the fanfare that Mariano gets. When he was playing, the relievers just were not as valued. It’s not Mo’s fault and it can be argued that the way pitchers are used nowadays is inferior to the old days, but Goose does have a few points.

    • Robert

      Sorry Moose, but you are wrong. Goose is a better closer than Rivera for a couple of reasons. If you put Rivera into Goose’s era, he would have lost it a whole lot quicker. Lets remember that Rivera bombed as a Starter when he first came up. That’s basically what Goose was in his era. He was the game’s second half starter basically. He would ROUTINELY pitch 3 innings a game for a save. Take out the saves category because it is far too glorified now-a-days with pitchers who only need to pitch one inning and they get themselves save. Goose has a better overall ERA, K per 9 innings, Hits per 9 innings, and by far more innings pitched. Goose would ROUTINELY pitch between 100-141 (ONE HUNDRED AND FORTY-ONE) innings in a single season all the time.

      If you put Goose in this era during the 11 seasons that he was a closer, he would blow Rivera out of the water. You can say postseason this and postseason that with Rivera, and it is incredible what he has done in the playoffs no doubt about it, but Goose didn’t have 3 rounds of playoffs to worry about. If Goose had 3 rounds of playoffs I don’t see a shadow of a doubt that he would do just as good if not better than Rivera.

      • Moose

        Duly noted. But he’s still a baby. No one should have to whine their way into the Hall.

        Also, while I give your credit for knowing ur stats better than me and making a strong argument, riddle me this, Batman….”why did it take Goose 9 yrs to make the Hall and Mariano is a lock for 1st ballot HOF?”

        • LiveFromNewYork

          It’s been tough for relievers to get into the HoF up until the past few years. And he didn’t whine his way in. He should have been in long before now.

          Buy some of the Yankee DVDs when Goose was pitching (eps when he came in for 2-3 innings) and you will think his pitching is sick. I was blown away the first time I saw it. Incredible player. HoFer long before now.