May
28

Why tonight’s loss supports moving Joba to the starting rotation

By

On the surface, tonight’s utterly pathetic 11-inning loss to the Orioles doesn’t do much to buffer the Yanks’ case that Joba Chamberlain should be given a shot at the starting rotation. When the game turned into a extra innings death match, the Yanks had to turn to LaTroy Hawkins, and surprising no one, Hawkins promptly blew the game (with an assist from Derek Jeter).

In the morning, the papers are sure to have a field day with this one. For the second day in a row, a pitcher not named Joba Chamberlain came into and blew a close game in late innings. Not so coincidentally, that pitcher’s name on both days happened to be LaTroy Hawkins. Had Joba — the erstwhile seventh member of the bullpen — been in the pen, the argument goes, the Yanks wouldn’t have needed LaTroy. Never mind that Joba would have pitched much earlier in the game, and that Hawkins probably would have throwing in the 11th anyway. That requires too much conjecture.

But counterintuitively to the knee-jerk Joba reaction is the fact that this game is a prime example of why Joba Chamberlain should be starting. Right now, it’s clear that we just don’t know what to expect out of Ian Kennedy. He became the first Yankee rookie in decades to record zero wins over his first eight starts to begin a season, and a lat injury will, according to Joe Girardi‘s post-game show, send him to the disabled list.

The Yanks scored eight runs tonight, and by any stretch, that should be enough to win the game. Staked to a four-run lead, Kennedy couldn’t hold down the fort. Ross Ohlendorf, very effective for one inning and very terrible beyond that (notice a pattern?), didn’t hold his four run lead either.

So enter Joba Chamberlain in the starting rotation. With Joba in the starting rotation taking Kennedy’s place — a nearly foregone conclusion considering the off-day on Thursday — the Yanks wouldn’t need a pitcher of Joba’s caliber for the back end of the game because that pitcher would ideally be giving them six or seven innings of baseball without allowing eight runs to score.

By the time Hawkins came in to predictably blow the game tonight, the point would have been moot. With better starting pitcher, the Yanks wouldn’t have been in the 11th inning scrambling for an arm.

Game Notes: I have to believe that Chris Britton, J.B. Cox and Mark Melancon will all soon be ahead of LaTroy Hawkins on the depth chart. If Britton isn’t, then someone on the Yanks should explain why. He’s no worse than Hawkins…Derek Jeter did not seem to be in this game tonight. He got picked off second with A-Rod up; he couldn’t get down a bunt; and that throw to the plate in the 11th ended up being costly as Aubrey Huff moved up to third base. Not the best stretch of games for Jeter in May this year. I wonder what’s up with him.

Categories : Game Stories
  • Joey

    This game can be blamed on a lot of people, and yes, LaTroy is one of them. I was hoping that Girardi would break and have Joba out there pitching that inning, mainly because he was there, hadn’t pitched yet, and isn’t in the rotation as of yet. There is nothing in this game that would point me to the “Joba MUST be in the bullpen” point of view, as it has been said 100x’s before, his arm not only deserves a shot at the rotation, but would be wasted with limited inning in the BP.

    I thank LaTroy for all he has done (or really hasn’t done), our little experiment is over. Bring up Britton and Patterson until Melacon and Cox are ready, I believe it was Patterson who had that incredible spring and then came back to earth. Our BP needs to be solved from within, and I believe we have the arms to do it, but Joba should not be part of it.

  • George

    LaTroy Hawkins, Ross Ohlendorf and Ian Kennedy will remember this Yankee loss for the rest of the season. Hell has frozen over. The team cannot be built around Joba. Sorry RAB team, but the vets on the team are not happy about this the Joba being as a starter and not in the pen. Tonight and last nights game could have been win’s for the Yankees if Joba was available.

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=594331910 Jamal G.

      Explain.

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.

      What veterans aren’t happy about it? I don’t buy that argument for one second. You just don’t keep a potential number one starter in the bullpen.

      And you know what? If Joba doesn’t work out as a starter, it’s really easy to move him back. Considering the state of the Yanks’ starting pitching, there’s absolutely no reason not to try.

    • r.w.g.

      I think a lot of those veterans are going to have to deal with it. They have had years together since 2003 with remarkable roster stability in the position players and they haven’t been getting it done.

      Joba as a starter has to happen b/c the kid is a 1 or 2 pitcher and you can’t let grousing from guys with expiring deals alter what needs to happen if we actually want to win the WS.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=594331910 Jamal G.

    I’m really just disappointed in Derek Jeter. I know mistakes are bound to happen and in baseball especially those usually snowball into more mistakes later in the game for some odd reason but again, I’m really not pleased with Mr. Jeter.

    • sheila

      Derek and I are officially on a break after last nights performance!

    • http://riveraveblues.com Mike A.

      I think he’s hurt. Last night was just rock bottom of a terrible stretch he’s been going through.

  • George

    The only thing about this evening was Montero, Garcia, Horne and Melancon

    • A.D.

      and AJAX, solid double; Cox, zeros

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=594331910 Jamal G.

    Thankfully Jose Lopez knocked in the game-winning single off Mike Timlin, or Boston’s LaTroy Hawkins, to win the game 4-3 for the M’s.

  • jew4jeter

    Ben, “I have to believe that Chris Britton, J.B. Cox and Mark Melancon will all soon be ahead of LaTroy Hawkins on the depth chart”
    To move all of them ahead of Latroy, wouldn’t that necessitate eliminating him from the roster somehow? Not that I have a problem with that, I’m just sayin’…
    Also, would they please stop using Ohlendorf as a long reliever? How soon do you think they can get each of these guys into the bullpen?
    BTW- I couldn’t agree more with your argument that tonight is a testiment to why Joba needs to move to the rotation.

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.

      Yes it would, and I await the day that LaTroy is no longer on the roster.

      As for Ohlendorf, I have to run the numbers, but there’s no way at all he should be pitching more than one inning at a time. He would be a great one-inning guy; he’s a terrible long reliever. Sadly though Jeff Karstens had a bad start at AAA earlier this week. So if he’s the projected long man, he has to turn in a few good outings first.

      • A.D.

        White can be the long man, he’s had a pretty good season in AAA and has been moved to the pen down there with too much starting pitching

    • Rich

      I thought the reason that Cash signed Hawkins was that he was the only veteran reliever willing to accept a one year contract thereby making it feasible to DFA him if he sucks, and in fact he sucks.

      • TurnTwo

        yeah, and i think part of it also hinges on the development of your options to replace him.

        i do think LaTroy isnt long for this team, but i think he’s more tied to JB Cox and Mark Melancon, not Chris Britton or Scott Patterson.

  • RustyJohn

    I feel bad for Ohlendorf cause he is clearly out of his depth as a long man- I was hoping he could hang in there for an inning or two more and pick up the W. Given what we’ve seen last year and this year when limited to an inning he would likely do well.

    I continue my hunger strike until Chris Britton is called up again- however, since Britton is a big boy, I have a reverse hunger strike where I eat Little Debbie snack cakes every day while he is down in Triple A. This swiss cake roll is for you, Chris.

    If there is any silver lining in the IPK injury, when he comes back they will have no place to put him and hopefully he can get more innings in Scranton.

    All I can say is, as of right now, we should have a day of worship for D. Rasner. THis rotation would be in the ditch right now without him.

    • Relaunch

      Feel bad for him? What? The guy should do his job. He was a starter for most of his career and now he is only a 1 inning guy. And since the beginning of the season, there have been excuses made for him here instead the obvious, he has been awful. There are other people that are mentioned that deserve a shot.

      • TurnTwo

        Ohlendorf pitches in shorter stints (1 inning), he doesnt pitch well.

        so far, seems to be that simple.

        • tommiesmithjohncarlos

          Agreed. Girardi’s treatment of Ohlendorf is probably the single most perplexing string of decision making he’s made regarding the bullpen (even more so that continuing to trot Latroy and The Human Sandwich Pick out there).

          Ohlendorf has shown quality innings, but not MULTIPLE quality innings. In one or two inning bursts, he’s been our third most effective reliever. But he’s not a long man… he’s just not. Stop using him that way.

          Jeff Karstens should be our long man.

          In fact, our 12-man staff should be as follows:

          SP- Wang
          SP- Pettite
          SP- Mussina
          SP- Rasner
          SP- Joba

          Long man/Spot Starter- Karstens
          RHP- Veras
          RHP- Britton
          RHP- Edwar
          RHP- Ohlendorf
          RHP- The Human Sandwich Pick
          CP- Mo

          … with IPK spending a month in Scranton learning how to have testicles and what to do with them, LaTroy DFA’d, and Cox, Melancon, and Patterson all called up for auditions during the next two months. Hopefully, by the trading deadline, 3 of the Ohlendorf/Edwar/Britton/Veras/Cox/Melancon/Patterson group will impress enough that we don’t need to consider dealing for bullpen help.

          • Relaunch

            Hilarious. Ohlendorf can have a 10ERA and people here will still want to keep him on the staff. Awesome!

  • BigBlueAL

    I disagree with the point that if Joba wouldve pitched earlier in the game Hawk still wouldve pitched the 11th. The point ive been trying to make is WHY is Joba pitching the game when Pettitte is starting???? PLEASE answer that one for me. He shouldve been strung out to pitch his innings in games where neither Wang or Pettitte is starting because they naturally are the 2 best starters and you would hope they go 6 or 7 innings at the minimum.

    IF he were pitching today, it wouldve been perfect, he wouldve entered in the 4th inning, and assumed wouldve pitched thru the 6th and i hope not give up 4 runs in the process like Ohlie did. Now Joba will be comin into the game on Wed no matter what, which could be a waste. I know the point is to stretch him out so the score doesnt matter, if anything a blowout is better cause he could work on pitches, but im sorry, you still have to win freakin games, and this “plan” cost the Yankees a game. Not the 6-1 game, thats ridiculous and stupid to blame that loss on Joba not bein available.

    Im all for Joba starting, especially now that a spot in the rotation is open. Its a perfect time. BUT the way they r going about it i think is wrong and cost the team a game tonight. Not having an extra pitcher at the least cost them. If anything, when they knew this “plan” was going to be implemented, they shouldve been more prepared in the bullpen in terms of at least carrying an extra pitcher during the process, instead of having a game like tonight when you are down to 2 pitchers, both of whom got lit up the previous game.

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.

      That’s an issue of days off. Joba needs, as any pitcher does, a certain amount of days off in between outings, and today was not his day to throw. You definitely can’t start messing around with those. What happened wasn’t ideal; that Joba wasn’t available clearly impacted the game in the short term today. But having him stretched out at the big league level is far better than losing him to a Minor League assignment. That’s the alternative at this point.

      • BigBlueAL

        Oh i know, and i agree. But cmon, the rotation can be mapped out for weeks at a time, so your telling me you couldnt do the same thing with Joba??? Im not saying they shouldve just stuck him in tonight because i know their plan was for him to pitch on Wed. BUT again, last week when they started this plan, why not plan it out to make sure he is relieving a starter who you would assume 5 to 6 innings is the best you will get (Moose, Rasner, Kennedy). Thats all im saying, and when this plan was started, go back to carrying 13 pitchers instead of 12, which they didnt do. Hey its a moot point now i know, and it works out in a way cause Joba should start Monday on normal 4 days rest from Wed, so in the end its perfect. But still, it hurts after a game like tonight……

        • TurnTwo

          not for nothing, but Andy hasnt exact;y been very dandy the last month of the season. do we really know if he’ll make it 6 or 7 innings this next start, and Joba wont get his pitches in anyway?

  • BigBlueAL

    On a sperate bullpen note. I had a team at Imagine Sports start on Monday, and guess who i have as my closer, Steve Farr!!!! old enuff Yankee fans remember him from the early 90’s, actually pitched very well from 1991 thru 1993, saving 78 games (actually surprised when seeing his stats, had a VERY GOOD career overall). Anyway, first game have a 4-1 lead in the bottom of the 9th, Farr gets only 1 out and i lose the game 7-4 (on a walk-off by of all people Brooks Robinson in the freakin Astrodome, where you need to be a superhero to hit one out). Now i know how Stump Merrill used to feel……

  • Kevin

    absolutely ridiculous joba could not be brought in for the 11th inning in this game. this was a huge game to have and in my opinion and absolute must win considering everything that went on. to have TWO four run leads blown, then battle back and score in the 11th after that absurd double play, this was simply must win. u have joba sitting there, just SITTING there and youre trying to tell me throwin him for one inning tonight totally screws up the “plan”? give me a break. he throws ten pitches probably, gets 3 outs and the yankees get a huge win. i’m sorry but girardi is an idiot. winning games like the one tonight gives you huge momentum and he really dropped the ball by not puttin joba in to get the save

    • JRVJ

      Kevin,

      I actually thought like you for a minute last night, until I read Pete Abe’s blog and noticed that IPK is probably injured.

      The Yanks MAY have been willing to pitch Joba today if IPK had been available for his next start (and that’s a big MAY, since they may not have been willing to give him another shot), but if you realize IPK won’t be available for his next start, it makes no sense to pull Joba out of his schedule (especially since he stands a BIG chance to be your starter on Monday).

  • Steve S

    What last night proves is that Ian Kennedy needs to stay in the minors for an extended period of time. The injury only bailed him out of what would have been a nightmare start anyway.

    Those T-Shirts have to be retired.

    • TurnTwo

      agreed.

    • Rich

      I agree that Kennedy needs to spend time in the mL, but I also think that if Kennedy didn’t get hurt that he would have pitched better than Ohlendorf and that the Yankees would have won.

      • TurnTwo

        how could you be so certain IPK pitches better than Ohlendorf?

        he had already given up one 4-run lead, so the law of averages tells you he couldnt possibly give up another?

        • Rich

          I’m not certain. I just think he’s a lot better than Ohlendorf.

          • Steve S

            Its still not saying much because Ohlendorf was awful after his first inning. Enough already I cant believe what Im seeing here, people ripping on Jeter but defending Kennedy. Im not saying release him or trade him but the kid is clearly overmatched up here and needs some seasoning in AAA. He was only there for about a month last year.

            • http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.

              No one’s really defending Kennedy at this point. He was bound to pitch better than Ohlendorf did though had he not bee injured. That’s very high praise though considering the outcome of the game.

              • mike

                I disagree – IPK has been pitching to a run-an-inning tune all year, and with the way the balls were jumping we would have been in the same boat. Just goes to show you the other scouts on other teams who were fools for not appreciating what IPK brings may not have been fools after-all

                • http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.

                  Which made-up scouts are you talking about? Can your throw some evidence behind your accusations? Just about every scout I’ve read is high on Kennedy.

                • r.w.g.

                  I’m pretty sure I’ve read various sports columns at various sports websites where the writer indicates he has spoken to scouts who believe Kennedy is a 5th starter at best.

                  Obviously, that’s with a grain of salt b/c you don’t know who the columnist talked to, or if they even did.

                  But I definitely have read things that were not super glowing of Kennedy in regards to how he will play in the Major leagues.

                • http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.

                  Everything I’ve read have scouts saying he projects to a third or fourth starter. No one’s said fifth starter at best; that was the Kei Igawa assessment.

                  Clearly, Kennedy hasn’t pitched up to his potential this year, and I keep wondering if last year’s back injury has something to do with that. He was great at first and then suffered an injury. Since then, he’s been less than stellar.

                • xkevinx

                  Kennedy was not great last year. Can we stop saying that? I watched all of those starts. The ERA was good, the peripherals were not. He benefited from luck and a small sample size. I was not impressed.

                • http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.

                  Kennedy’s peripherals last year:

                  0.47 HR/9 IP
                  7.10 K/9 IP
                  4.26 BB/9 IP

                  Considering that he pitched only 19 MLB innings last year, the sample size is way too small. But outside of the walks, which of those numbers are bad peripherals? In fact, that he allowed few home runs while striking out a lot batters indicates good peripherals, and not bad ones. He clearly hasn’t pitched to the same level this year.

                  No one is saying he was great, but he was a lot better than he’s pitched this year. And he was a far cry from this terrible label you want to pin on him.

                • xkevinx

                  You’re last post said he was great. Did you just call yourself “no one?”

                • http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.

                  Ah yeah. I guess I did :)

                  Great was a bit of hyperbole. He pitched well at the MLB level last year. He hasn’t done so this year.

                • r.w.g.

                  I think Ian Kennedy’s big problem is he could have just used a full year at one level. They really pushed him through the system very, very quickly.. and Kennedy’s stuff doesn’t seem to warrant that.

                  I know his performance “warranted” him being promoted, but there is really something to be said about building on success over a period of time.

                  I mean hell, Alex Gordon was NCAA player of the year, spent one season at AA where he hit .325 and won mL player of the year, went to the bigs and put up a .240 season.

              • Steve S

                Ben how can possibly say that you guys havent been defending him. When you qualify his struggles that is inherently a defense. Its one thing when a person evaluates based on one start but for the most part this year he has been awful. Pointing to his 19 innings last year was fine after his first couple of stuggles but now those statistics are hollow. There are plenty of picther who have done well for a 19 inning stretch.

                Not to mention the fact that September may be a reason for his success. Their probably werent a great amount of scouting reports around since he had gone through three levels in a short level of time and no one had seen him in the league. Knowing that he was going to be their 5 this year gavce teams an incentive to build a real book on him. And its apparent that he needs to refine some things. And I dont know how you can possible assume he would have done better than Ohlendorf. So far this year Ohlendorf has contributed more than Kennedy has. And had it not been for Kennedy perhaps Ohlendorf could be in role that fits his stuff better. The guy has been trying to fill the long man role, mostly because Kennedy has averaging less than 5 innings per start. A month ago it was looking at his homeruns given up, now were down to looking at Ohlendorf did when he came in and what his stats were last September.

                Enough, when is going to become apparent that teams normally dont develop three good pitching prospects at the same time. If Joba or Hughes work out then call it a sucess because between Wang and one of them then the Yankee front office has done a magnificent job. If Hughes turns out nicely and Joba fails but is still great in the bullpen, then its an even bigger bonanza. BUT the reality is is that most of these kids are going to flop. Thats just the reality.

                THATS why please take down those ridiculous Tshirts.

                • Yanks Fan in NY

                  Can you stop harping on the fucking t-shirts already? You’ve made your point.

                • Steve S

                  No I cant, because they are still up there, so I havent made my point.

                • http://riveraveblues.com Mike A.

                  The shirts aren’t coming down. Yes it sucks the kids are going through a rough stretch, but we’re happy to have them and want to promote that.

                • Steve S

                  I understand that but my problem from the beginning with these Tshirts is

                  1) Its a mush

                  2) Making of random Tshirts sort of reminds me of another group of fans that I dont care to mention.

                  Im sort of doing it tongue in cheek as well but now that I know it pisses off that guy I know I should keep doing it.

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Joseph P.

      So, because he pitched poorly in the second, means that he would have pitched poorly in the fourth? I’m not saying he would have limited the damage to four runs (three earned) over six innings, but to say it would have been a nightmare start is far from a known.

      • Steve S

        So the logic is to assume someone who goes three innings, gives up four runs, is going to settle down the rest of the game.

        Maybe, if that starter were Wang or someone who has had more than one decent start this season.

        So I guess I am out on a limb when i say the guy who is allowing almost two base runners per inning this year and has walked almost the same amount of guys he has struck out is going to get rocked after he had just finished three innings where he had already given four runs, inlcuding two homeruns. Oh and in his defense he was pitching at Camden yards. so I’m skeptical whether its really its unclear to assume he would have settled down or if its delusional.

        • http://www.riveraveblues.com Joseph P.

          No, it’s not clear that he would settle down. As I said, I just think that assuming he would have been rocked in the fourth onward is far from known. More probable than his settling down? If you want to attribute his April starts to his performance now, yeah, that’s more probable. But unlike his April starts, he actually threw strikes last night. So I’m not sure we can go on assuming he’ll be rocked.

          • Steve S

            This is semantics. What is more than likely, that he settles down and shuts them out through the sixth throwing around 100 pitches OR that he gets into more trouble the next couple of innings and gets hit harder or loses the strikezone as a result of getting hit so hard or as a result of laboring to try and hit spots?

            His May stats, that he managed to not walk one guy per inning is so impressive. How about the May Kennedy who apparently now is in the strikezone but has given up a lot more homeruns and a about a hit per inning. Thats a a great sign. Absolutely, I was wrong how couldnt I have seen that Kennedy was about to turn the corner.

  • Babe’s Ghost

    Gee… I don’t remember anyone promising that all three would pan out. What ever happened to building from within? Everyone knew this was risky to count on young pitching and granted so far we’ve gotten the worst case scenario. But so what? I thought this was about laying the foundation for the next five to eight years? I thought we were beyond the must-win-this-year-or-else mentality?

    Kennedy and Hughes still have plenty of potential, even though it hasn’t worked out this year. Joba is helping the team while he develops. Edwar looks like a revelation. We’ve got three or four very interesting arms on the way up.

    Sure that was a painful loss but what is everyone so upset about? We’re still hanging around despite injuries to our two best offensive players and we’ve got a sweet stretch of schedule.

    • TurnTwo

      arent the orioles supposed to be a part of said “sweet stretch of schedule”?

      oh wait, no, that stretch starts after Baltimore…

    • mike

      Build from within starts with “scout from within” – and if our scouts thought IPK was a no-brainer middle of the rotation guy, who not spectacular could give league-average innings and eat up innings while learning on the job and benefitting from the offensive juggernaut and from Moose’s tutelage, they were wrong.
      Build from within means know when to hold, and when to hype & trade. The same team making these judgements thought that hawk would be an ok bridge for a year, and that Ollie could nail down the 7th inning.
      The cannot be right all of the time with pitching, but give me some of the time??

    • Steve S

      I hate to even bring this up because its not the point but no not everyone seemed to understand the risk the way they discarded trading for Santana. Which I still think was a prudent move but doesn’t prevent me from being frustrated and annoyed with Ian Kennedy. At this point Id rather see Alan Horne in a couple of weeks.

      But like I said thats not the point. I never had that mentality but I do believe that this team has enough talent to win. So my expectations are founded in that and the fact that this team last year won 90+ games. And for a rookie pitcher who has been awful but manages to complain when he is demoted. Im starting to lose my belief and my appreciation for IPK. And along with that my patience is gone. Send him to AAA, he needs an entire year there.

      • mustang

        The funny part this that every-time Hughes or IPK pitched this season Santana also seem to be pitching . Almost like a spot light on the whole thing.

  • http://www.workwithpete.com Pete

    I knew it was over when I saw who Hawkins would be facing in the 11th. Flipped it off and flipped my remote as soon as Cintron hit the ball in the air.

    Jeter cost us runs at least 3 times by my count- something’s definitely wrong there.

  • Simon B.

    Don’t you know? Ohlendorf can only pitch one inning…on alternate Fridays, between the hours of 3 and 5. Use him otherwise, and he’s awful! But he’s great there. He threw only five pitches in his first inning, and some of them were hit for rockets, but they found fielders. Stop the “he’s a good one-inning reliever!”

    I’m sorry, but I’ve said this from the start, so I’m entitled to a bit of gloating. Ohlendorf should not have been in the majors from the start. Contrary to what is often repeated, he was not bad as a starter, then good once he converted to relief. He was still bad, but the Yankees, for some reason, promoted him anyway.

    http://yankees.lhblogs.com/200.....ent-277324

    Yes, I occasionally post on Peter Abraham’s blog. I know, the shame, the shame. That said, I turned out to be correct on both Ohlendorf and Edwar, and a few other things if you read my other posts on that page.

    [/gloat]

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Joseph P.

      What we’re not seeing: What you were wrong about.

      • Simon B.

        Like what?

    • Geno

      This is a silly post. So you were correct that Ohlendorf isn’t Koufax. Wow. Nice one. Do you want to tell us all the times you turned out to be wrong too? Young pitchers often don’t work out. This is hardly breaking news.

      • Simon B.

        Ohlendorf never had the prospects to pitch in the major leagues in the first place. He was pushed ahead even though he had neither the stuff nor the track record to back it up.

        The point I was trying to make was that there was a giant misconception among the fanbase that hyped up Ohlendorf way beyond what he was.

        This isn’t a case of “he’s a young pitcher; young pitchers often struggle”. All evidence suggested he wasn’t ready, but many were willing to overlook it.

        • http://riveraveblues.com Mike A.

          You’re nuts if you think Ohlendorf doesn’t have good stuff. Not everyone is Joba, you know.

          • Simon B.

            Well, depends on what you call good stuff. He has a hard fastball, no doubt, but he’s lost the sinker, and his secondary pitches aren’t consistent enough. He’s increased his K rate in a limited sample size in the majors, but in the past, he’s always been lackluster there.

            I’ll tell you what I suspect to be part of his failure. He pitches like he’s still a sinkerballer, but it isn’t there anymore. He needs to get his slider in shape and locate his fastball better rather than throwing strikes and relying on his non-existent sink to make them quality strikes.

    • http://riveraveblues.com Mike A.

      That’s just silly. Ohlendorf was very good after he moved to the pen last year. He got his ass handed to him as a starter, that’s for sure, but he was pretty damn good in relief.

      • Simon B.

        No, he was not. Look it up. He didn’t deserve a promotion to the big league team in September.

      • Simon B.

        Honestly, it’s exasperating how everyone keep repeating this myth over and over again. Look. it. up. He was not good as a reliever in AAA.

        • http://riveraveblues.com Mike A.

          25.2 IP, 32 H, 11 ER, 9 BB, 24 K out of the bullpen last year. Take out the beating he took in his very first outing as a reliever, and his line was:

          22.2 IP, 28 H, 8 ER, 7 BB, 23 K. That’s pretty good. Rate stats are in line with what Chad Qualls did last year.

          • Simon B.

            I don’t know where you’re getting those numbers, but I have a 4.57 ERA as a reliever. Are you going too far back?

            • http://riveraveblues.com Mike A.

              Those are his stats as a reliever from last year. He only converted the bullpen in July. I went through the DotF archives and compiled a little game log, and went from there. He only made 12 relief appearances in the minors, then another 6 in the majors.

  • Rob_in_CT

    Ohlendorf just isn’t very good. I’ve been saying this for a while, and get jumped on every time I bring it up here. He keeps going out and getting bombed.

    Now I get the argument that he’s only suited to be a 1-inning reliever. I’m dubious about that. Even if true, however, unfortunately this team (due to a lack of good starters) needs guys like him to step up and get more than 3 outs at a time.

    I’m all sortsa onboard for putting Joba in the rotation, though.

  • Rob_in_CT

    I see nothing here:

    5/27 @BAL L 9-10 2.1 4 4 4 3 0 2 3 11 28 0 — — 6.37
    5/20 BAL L 2-12 3.1 4 3 1 1 2 3 6 17 47 0 — — 5.60
    5/18 NYM L 2-11 0.1 3 4 4 1 1 0 2 5 17 0 — — 6.00
    5/14 @TB W 2-1 0.2 2 0 0 0 0 0 2 3 7 0 — H 4.56
    5/8 CLE W 6-3 2.0 1 0 0 0 0 1 1 7 20 0 — H 4.70
    5/4 SEA W 8-2 1.0 1 0 0 0 0 1 2 4 16 0 — — 5.14
    4/29 DET L 4-6 3.1 1 0 0 0 1 5 4 12 46 0 — — 5.40
    4/26 @CLE L 3-4 0.1 3 1 1 0 1 1 2 5 16 0 L(0-1) — 6.48
    4/24 @CWS L 6-7 2.0 5 5 5 0 1 1 5 13 49 0 — — 6.06
    4/19 @BAL L 0-6 3.1 3 2 2 0 1 3 5 14 48 0 — — 3.77

    That indicates he’s a good 1-inning reliever but a terrible multi-inning one. I just see a bad pitcher. He’s had multi-inning stints where he did ok, and he’s had one-inning (or less!) stints where he’s given up runs.

    He’s young. He throws hard. I’m not saying you kick him to the curb and never think of him again – he might improve. But he sucks right now.

    • flynn

      At this point I’d rather Cash have gotten a bucket of Micah Owings piss rather than Ohlendorf. The Bullpun save Joba, Ramirez (recently) and Mo is terrible. Taking at a minimum, 33% of your competence from the Pen is a bitter pill to swallow- not sure how that can be spun into a positive.

      LaTroy Hawkins is proof positive that a pile of shit can sprout legs and play baseball.

      • http://riveraveblues.com Mike A.

        Oh good greif. Micah Owings is mediocre pitcher pitching in a shitty division. Who gives a shit if he’s a good hitter, that’s completely worthless to the Yanks. You people act like he’s the second coming or something.

        • flynn

          How bout a vat of Bob Melvins toe nail clipings? The point is Ross can’t get anyone out- not that Owings is Koufax.

  • JohnC

    Ohlendorf doesn’t get used enough to be effective I think. He goes days without any work, so how can you expect him to be sharp? I think if he gets more steady work, and yes, 1 inning at a time for a while, he could be more effective. Sinker ball pitchers need the work or they are too strong and their ball stays up, hence, they get hit.

  • mike

    I pin this loss on a few things, but the one which sticks to me is The Bullet-Proof Captain, who looked like a rookie getting picked off Second Base with the best hitter in baseball up and a new reliever on the hill, and making a poor relay throw home instead of keeping the winning run at second base – even if he gets him at home the tying run is still at 3rd base!
    Plus, he looked like Melky trying to bunt – and since for some reason he has decided that he , King of Going the Other Way, is better suited to bunt than to hit the ball and try for a hit or at least advance the runner, I hope when his contract comes up he gets paid like a gritty, baseball-savvy, singles hitting, average defender who can move runners along with no pop…..sounds like Eckstein

    • flynn

      Jeter didn’t allow all those donks and 11 runs. He had a terrible game, but this loss is all about shitty pitching

      • mike

        Agreed the pitching was horrible – can Ollie back someone off the plate after they crush a few of his pitches?? – but when both teams are dealing with crappy pitching, and used everyone in their pen and on their bench, I count on Captain Intangible ( because only true fans, not stat guys, but those who watch every game and appreciate his aura ) to play heads-up baseball and not sh*t the bed.
        If ARod would have made a poor relay which let both the tying run score and the winning run get to 3rd, and gotten picked off in a big spot for absolutely no reason, and missed a bunt 2x and then waved over a pitch for a strikeout with a runner on base, he would hear it. Even last week when Jeter got caught in a rundown of 3rd base (with no one out and runner on 1st – once the throw goes for the 2x play he can break for home and make it standing up!!) we get to hear how heads-up a player he is allowing the rundown to continue until Abreu moves up. what was Jeter supposed to do, do a Rose/Fosse? Fall down?
        I just hate when we cannot objectively look at a player because of successful past performance – try telling your boss you cloesd a big deal in 1999 or 2000 and see what happens when you start to slip a bit….

  • Cam

    Can someone please tell these pitchers to never pitch inside to Millar. If I never have to see him hit one of those cheap, first row hr’s off of an inside mistake pitch again, my life would be much better.

  • E-ROC

    Will the signing of Ben Broussard impact the majors?

    Ohlie is a one inning pitcher, but his pitches were in the middle of the plate. That’s always a bad omen.

    • A.D.

      Ben Broussard is an insurance policy & depth for the AAA with Miranda out

      • E-ROC

        Thanx.

  • Z1m

    I heard an interview with Jeter and he was talking about Torre and one thing he mentioned about Mr. T is that he couldn’t take the players making mental mistakes. Physical mistakes can happen but mental mistakes at this level are very tough to take. Jeter would pride himself on making mentally smart plays. Lately that’s not the case. Picked off of second base is a big mental mistake at that point in the game.

    When will Cox and Melancon be ready for the bigtime?

    • TurnTwo

      i wouldnt believe until the All Star break, but then again i didnt see them being as far in their rehab, respectively, as they currently are now.

      it seems as though they are both throwing strong and pain free, but i just hope the current situation in the MLB bullpen doesnt force the hand of the organization to push them too hard too fast.

  • mike

    To add to an above string, but it deserves a different start – why cannot the Yanks buzz some of the O’s who are standing in and taking batting practice off of their pitches? Can someone get spun out of the way? Get dirty? Get drilled in the thigh or back?
    We have one of the least-powerful offenses in baseball – with Millar as actually a valued part of their offense, for God’s sake!!! – teeing off of our staff. Is anyone on the O’s hitting .250 until we showed up?
    Did anyone up there look uncomfortable against any Yankee pitcher? I thought this was supposed to end -especially with all these young guys being pushed by our deep pitching in the minors? are we all still drinking the Kool-Aid?

  • mustang

    I now WANT Joba to start, but I still think the point made in this thread is wrong.

    “pitcher would ideally be giving them six or seven innings of baseball without allowing eight runs to score.”

    The key word here is IDEALLY.
    Once again just like with Hughes and IPK your projecting what Joba is going to do as a starter. The people who want Joba in the pen have the facts that he is a great reliever. We still don’t know what Joba is going to be as a starter. I think by now we should all understand that minor league numbers and Baseball America rankings don’t necessarily equal major league success.
    The whole argument is moot anyway do to the Hughes/IPK experiment blowing up they have no other choice.

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.

      If the point of your comment is that I should have used the word ideally, and then you go back and say I did use the word ideally, then how exactly is the point in this post wrong? That isn’t very logical.

      • mustang

        The point you tried to make is that they don’t need Joba in the 8th because when he starters he ideally wouldn’t give up 8 runs.
        What I’m saying is how do you know?
        There is facts and projections lets not mix the two.

        • http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.

          I don’t know. Hence the use of the word “ideally.” This isn’t some great conceptually leap to make.

          I’ve seen Joba pitch in the Majors. Nothing about him suggests that he will pitch to the same 7.41 ERA Kennedy currently sports. But yes, it’s just a guess.

          • mustang

            You seen him as a reliever not a starter in the majors but I agree that he will probably pitch a lot better then IPK. It’s hard to pitch any worse.

      • mustang

        Now Ben you change the comment on me again.
        Are you heated ?
        LOL

    • Steve S

      Agreed, but I think anyone who says that they shouldn’t try him as a starter is foolish. You have to find out if the kid can do it. The problem now becomes is that media and fans are going to have very little patience. if people thought it was hard with the other two, this one is going to be impossible. If he comes out the first couple of starts and does poorly people are going to go insane. And its completely unjustified. lets just hope it doesn’t go to his head or bother him.

      • mustang

        Very good point about the media.
        For example on ESPN sport line they showed Joba’s complete line the other day when he relieve Moose they didn’t even bring up Moose’s name on the line.
        The pressure on Joba is going to be unnecessarily crazy, but I think the kid can

        • mustang

          handled it.

          • Steve S

            lets hope management can handle it because this isnt a one or two week experiment, this is it, this is a season long thing and in essence the last line of defense. Not that I necessarily want to this to happen nor would it be justified but if Joba struggles and Hughes cant be any better come July, then Cashman’s probably doesnt come back.

            • mustang

              Agree.
              But I’m not worry they are 5-3 on this 35 game stretch between the two Subway Series. The offense is hitting and their rotation looks to finally be set. I think they are ready for a run.

      • tommiesmithjohncarlos

        No, Steve S, anyone who thinks they shouldn’t try him as a starter isn’t “foolish”. Anyone who thinks they shouldn’t try him as a starter isn’t a flaming idiot. The Great Joba Non-Debate is one of those great watershed moments in American fandom and journalistic history, one drawing clear and bold lines of separation between the intelligent and the slack-jawed troglodyte. This is the best textbook case of a wedge issue valuably serving as the proverbial pull-back-the-curtain-to-see-that-the-wizard-is-a-fake moment since Terry Bradway used a day-one draftpick on a kicker for the Jets.

        Simply, everybody who thinks Joba staying in the pen, for another week, month, season, or indefinitely, without even trying him in the rotation, for ANY reason, is the biggest thoughtless brainless moron that you know. That includes everybody at the Post, Daily News, Bergen Record, and LoHud, and all the idiots who take that position on here.

        1) Starters are more valuable than relievers. This is an incontrovertible FACT and shouldn’t be argued.
        2) We have nothing to lose and everything to gain by trying Joba as a starter, since he’s shown all the potential in the world to start.
        3) If he fails, he can move right back to his role in the pen.

        Ergo, not wanting to move him is utterly nonsensical.

        • Steve S

          Ill also throw in the lifespan of dominant relievers not named Mariano is relatively short.