Yanks consider stifling player and manager speech

January 29, 2009 by Joe Pawlikowski 96 Comments

The Week of Torre continues late Wednesday into Thursday. In this installment, we find out from Wallace Matthews that the Yankees want to include an NDA in future player and manager contracts. Instead of non-disclosure agreement, though, they’re going with a “non-disparagement” agreement “in order to prevent any more tell-all books.” So former employees can disclose parts of their tenure with the Yankees, so long as they’re not portraying the team in a negative light. Sounds like the makings of some compelling literature.

The Yankees only want former employees to write books which are “positive in tone.” Well, of course they do. No one in the Yankees front office is happy that Joe Torre wrote this book. It says some mean things about them. They’d prefer it if they could control that type of speech so they wouldn’t have to deal with the PR issues.

That doesn’t mean that Torre shouldn’t be able to write it. He lived it, supposedly, so why shouldn’t he be able to chronicle it and sell it to anyone willing to buy? That’s the point, isn’t it? People will buy it, so he and Verducci wrote it. That’s what they wanted, and that’s what they’ll get.

As we’ve seen over the course of the week, this has not been without fallout. Matthews tells us in another column that “David Wells will be named the team nutritionist before Torre is invited back to the Bronx.” The player reaction obviously hasn’t been positive. Even some fans are turning against the legendary former skipper. Everyone’s getting theirs, it seems.

Like an overnight post I did on Mark Teixeira back in December, this is my last post on the Joe Torre fiasco. Hey, when I said that about Tex the Yanks signed him the next day. Maybe something cool will happen today.

http://www.puristbleedspinstripes.com Rebecca-Optimist Prime

I don’t like the halfway, at all.

I would never work for an employer that would stifle my free speech, so it’d be hypocritical of me to say that I’m okay with something like that.
- http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.
  
  Private employers aren’t technically stifling your free speech. They can make you sign non-disclosures agreements, non-competes, etc.
  
  The government is barred by the Constitution from abridging your right to free speech. That’s a significant difference.
  - http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside
    
    SHUTUP WITH YOUR LEGAL KNOWLEDGE!
    
    They stifled his free speech, I saw it with my own eyes.
    - jsbrendog
      
      glad you dusted this one off. its been awhile
- Mike
  
  You wouldn’t hold back negativity for multi-million dollar contracts?
  - Bo
    
    You sign a contract with a private employer you throw away your free speech rights to a large degree. It’s part of the trade off.
    
    And gov’t jobs certainly have nondisclosre agreements. CIA, NSA, etc.
    - jsbrendog
      
      same thing with schools, private/boarding high schools and private colleges. you sign your rights away when you agree to go to their institution, esp when you accept $$ from them. Cross their policies and rules or speak out and youre gone. people think free speech is youre right everywhere anywhere anytime, but at places like this you sign a contract and it is at their discretion based on the contract terms.
- History Teacher
  
  YANKEES NEED TO GET NATE MCCLOUTH FOR CENTERFIELD! I WOULD EVEN TRADE ANY COMBO OF HUGHES/KENNEDY/MELKY/GARDNER FOR HIM. MCCLOUTH IS A 5-TOOL PLAYER AND WOULD SERIOUS MAKE OUR SQUAD BETTER FOR YEARS AND YEARS.
  - steve (different one)
    
    wow, Melky, Kennedy and Gardner?
    
    i can’t believe this hasn’t happened already.
    
    maybe we can throw in Shelley Duncan, just to get it done quicker.
    - I Remember Celerino Sanchez
      
      I’m sure the Pirates would do it for Melky, Duncan and the 2005 version of Tim Redding. Maybe tehy’d even throw in a prospect!
      - steve (different one)
        
        maybe we can send them Mariano Duncan instead, they may not even notice.
        
        after all, the Pirates are only around to send the Yankees their best players, right?
        
        I Remember Celerino Sanchez
        
        Yes, the Pirates are teh Yankees’ AAAA team.
  - http://thejoeyhshow.blogspot.com/ Joey H
    
    Okay Mike Francesa..
- History Teacher
  
  The Yankees did not do right by Joe Torre. I don’t like that book as much as any other Yankee fan, but you have to realize how badly they treated the best manager in team history. I will never turn my back on Joe, and we all have to realize how terrible getting a-rod was. He really is as bad as I suspected. What a non-team player.
  - MattG
    
    That’s a load of baloney. The Yankees treated Torre fine. Torre’s head got too big.
    
    Torre got too much credit for his championships, and not enough blame for the failures since 2001. How many more years should the Yankees have watched him exhaust his pitching staff, limping into the playoffs with everyone on fumes?
    
    Bullpen help, bullpen help, bullpen help. It was the ‘Torre Mantra’ ever since the Nelson, Stanton, Mendoza ticket closed down. Quantrill, Gordon, Witasik, Karsay, Farnsworth–all the time and money invested into giving Torre a bullpen–and yet every year he burned them out and crawled into the post-season with half a pitching staff.
    
    This book is just another confirmation that Torre believes he knows how to build a team. He doesn’t. He knows how to manage egos, and handle the media. He hasn’t the first clue about constructing a team, and unless he can again become the humble Joe of the late nineties, and play the players he’s given, he’ll keep flaming out in the playoffs.
    - jim
      
      That is a good point.
      
      I went back and looked at all the box scores of the playoffs since 2002, and it seems like the reason the Yankees were losing some of the key games was the 8th inning.
  - steve (different one)
    
    What a non-team player.
    
    this is dumb.
    
    even Torre says he has never seen a player work harder.
    
    you make it sound like baseball is like basketball and A-Rod doesn’t pass the ball.
    
    what doesn’t A-Rod do, refuse to throw the ball to first base? hits too many HRs instead of bunting?
    
    just stop.
    
    the assaults on his character are one thing. i get it, the guy is odd. but when you make some stupid, 1950’s era cliche about what he brings to the field, you don’t sound very intelligent.
    
    just some advice.
    - A.D.
      
      Exactly, he was willing to move to 3B, despite being the better SS, before every becoming a Yankee, thats a team player move. If he struggles offensively that doesn’t make him “not a team player” it makes him a struggling player on a team.
  - http://actyankee.blogspot.com Matt
    
    “The Yankees did not do right by Joe Torre. I don’t like that book as much as any other Yankee fan, but you have to realize how badly they treated the best manager in team history.”
    
    Nope, the Yankees probably didn’t do right by him. All they did was TURN HIM INTO A FUCKING HALL OF FAME MANAGER. The Yankees made Torre, not the other way around. He was a sub .500 manager before coming to New York. What did he do? Have stroke of genius in 1996? Please, he was in the right place at the right time. The Yankees were poised to be a great time, with or without Torre. They were rolling before the strike in 1994 and were a playoff team in 1995, and Torre just stepped in to the right situation.
- Viasistina
  
  If your employer paid you $12M+ you would sign the NDA without any questions. Let’s get real..these people take millions from the Yankees, then they go out and badmouth the organization. You should at least be expected to keep your mouth shut after you leave.
Marcus

Good, no more Joe Torre bs.

Joe Torre is about as great as Jose Canseco.

No one loves a rat.
- Bo
  
  How is he a rat?
  
  I bet the players are thrilled that he’s called out Pavano and Brown. Has he called out Mo? Andy? Jeter? Anyone from 96-2003?
  - steve (different one)
    
    I bet the players are thrilled that he’s called out Pavano and Brown.
    
    no, i bet they are not thrilled.
    
    players count on the sanctity of the clubhouse and Torre violated that.
    
    just because he picked on some guys that weren’t as popular doesn’t mean the players are “thrilled” about it.
    
    that’s just a completely one-sided way to look at it.
    
    he revealed a private conversation with Damon. he revealed that Bernie accidently left his kid at the stadium one night.
    
    he takes shots at players he never even managed, like Carlos Beltran.
    
    i would imagine that the players are NOT happy. and i would imagine the players on the Dodgers trust him just a little less now.
    
    yes, Pavano is a joke, but the fallout from this has been harsh, so obviously there is more to this than a few laughs at Pavano’s expense.
BigBlueAL

Most people here should know by now how much I love Torre and those 4 championship teams. Its amazing how everybody now talks about how bad a manager he was and how anybody couldve won with those teams. Funny because Buck Showalter arguably had a better team in 1995 and he single-handedly blew the series vs Seattle. Most fans/critics thought the Yankees were a worse team going into 1996 with some of the moves they mad and with Torre being the manager. Well the managing job Torre did in the 1996 post-season was the best piece of managing any Yankees manager has ever done.

Sure he made mistakes the past 8 years, as many mistakes as Cashman and the rest of the decision makers have made. And I love Cashman and am thrilled he stayed with the Yankees so dont take this as a shot at him to defend Torre. Fact is the reason his bullpen managing was bad his last few years was cause his bullpen was horrendous. You cant make chicken salad out of chicken shit.

Yet with all the injuries and daily harping the Yankees endured from 05-07 they still managed to make the playoffs, unlike the 08 Yankees. I mean Tony LaRussa’s book about the 03 Cardinals was a huge best-seller and he took shots at a bunch of players and there was no backlash at him, and he was/is still managing the same team!! I for one cant wait to read the entire book and will for sure enjoy reading it. If he was still the manager than yeah it would be a big deal, but he aint so who really gives a shit about what he says in the book.

His legacy for me will be the manager who finally won WS titles for the Yankees since I was born in 1980 and remember the bad teams/poorly managed teams of the late 80’s through early 90’s. I loved Buck and everyone gives him credit for the Yankees resurgence and rightfully so, but his managing in the 1995 ALDS was the worst bit of managing you could ever see. So Joe Torre no matter what he says will be a legend in my eyes, someone who better get his number retired and will go down as one of the greatest managers in Yankees history.

Im sorry for all you younger fans who dont remember the Torre Yankees winning it all and how bad things were in the late 80’s til the time Torre took over and only think of Torre as a bitter, egotistical old man who cant manage. I pray that the Yankees in your lifetime will have another run like they did under Torre from 1996-2001….
- http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.
  
  Funny because Buck Showalter arguably had a better team in 1995 and he single-handedly blew the series vs Seattle.
  
  A better team than what? The 1998 Yankees were far, far superior than the 1995 Yankees. The same could probably be said for the 1996, 1999 and 2001 Yanks as well. I’m on the fence about the 2000 team.
  - BigBlueAL
    
    I was referring to the 1996 team. I recently re-read Joel Sherman’s book about the 1996 team (I know alot of you hate him but this is a really good book) and he talked about how all the critics thought they got worse by changing managers, losing Mike Stanley, signing Kenny Rogers, going with a RC at SS, plus the Orioles making all the moves they made plus hiring Davey Johnson making them clearly the favorites to win the East that season.
    
    So my comment was referring to 1995-1996. For sure the 1998 Yankees were arguably one of the best teams that ever lived (believe Rob Neyer and Eddie Epstein in their Baseball Dynasties had them 3rd and 4th all-time and they even said it was probably too low but just didnt want to rank them 2nd behind the 1939 Yankees because they were too recent still) and the 1999 Yankees werent as good in the regular season but dominated in the playoffs losing only 1 game. The 2000-2001 teams were clearly in decline and had little depth.
    
    To me the only teams that truly underachieved under Torre were the 2002-2003 teams because of their excellent starting pitching (although that was the time the bullpen started becoming weak besides Mo). Since 2004 the Yankees have been very flawed with only their offense and Mo carrying them to the post-season.
    
    Hey Im just defending Torre since almost everyone else here has ripped him to shreds. You can criticize his motives for the book and for even writing it that is fine, but dont needlessly ridicule and rip the job he did as Yankees manager is all I am saying….
    - http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.
      
      I don’t see how you can say the 2003 team underachieved. They made it to game six of the World Series, and lost that World Series because of Joe Torre’s stupid managerial decisions.
      - BigBlueAL
        
        Well isnt not winning the WS underachieving???? I mean thats all everyone had said they didnt win shit after 2000 because Torre was a bad manager. To me they did underachieve in 2002 because they won 103 games and didnt even get out of the 1st round and in 2003 they had no business losing that WS to the Marlins.
        
        Game 1 they were just mentally dead and couldnt rally in the end losing what 3-2 I believe after falling behind 3-0 early and leaving something like 10 or 11 runners on base. They won 6-1 in Games 2 and 3 and I know Weaver shouldnt have been pitching but people forget Sierra was stranded at 3rd after his game-tying triple in the 9th and in the 11th inning they had the bases loaded with 1 out and didnt score. Weaver actually pitched a 1-2-3 11th inning before losing the game in the 12th. So I blame the offense as much if not more so than pitching Weaver. Then you had freaking Wells only pitching 1 inning in Game 5 forcing an exhausted Contreras to come in real early and get shelled, and still Bernie almost tied the game in the 9th with a near homerun. Game 6 was just all Beckett but it shouldnt have come down to the Yankees needing to win Games 6 and 7 at home to win that WS.
        
        2004 I was shocked the Yankees were up 3-0 on the Sox to begin with. I figured the series would go 7 games and the Yankees could very well lose but obviously not the way it played out. But again that starting pitching was horrendous and the Red Sox were just a better team that season. The Yankees won 101 games but I believe they only shouldve won 89 game or so based on their run differential.
        
        Its funner debating at least the merits of those teams rather than just having someone say Torre sucks, screw him I couldve managed those Yankees teams he was a loser before he joined the Yankees and he is a loser now. Anyone consider Casey Stengel a loser cause his record before and after he managed the Yankees was actually worse than Torre’s????? I guess not because he didnt right a book that God forbid took some shots at some players and members of the Yankees….
        
        Bo
        
        anyone that says the 2003 underachieved shouldn’t be a baseball fan.
        
        did the 1960 team underachieve too???
        
        MattG
        
        Joe Torre DID blow the 2003 WS. Pitching Wells on that day might’ve been the single stupidest managerial decision of his career, and it was completely avoidable. But by this time, Joe Torre refused to use all 25 men on his roster.
        
        Joe Torre is two different managers–the humble, “I believe in you” guy that got good performances out of Hayes, Raines, Strawberry, Llyod, etc in the early years, and the arrogant, “Your not a true Yankee” that ruined careers for Thames, J Rivera, Quantrill, Farnsworth, etc in the later years. The man CHANGED. That is so overlooked–he did not manage the same way, and his teams were onedge and burnt every October.
        
        jsbrendog
        
        i agree with this sentiment
        
        http://actyankee.blogspot.com Matt
        
        I do, too but I wouldn’t say Marcus Thames’s career was ruined. He may not get on base much but he does hit the ball real hard. Since leaving the Yankees, he’s had a homer every 13.7 or so ABs. To put that into context, for his career, A-Rod’s career mark is a homer every 14.21 ABs.
craig

“David Wells will be named the team nutritionist before Torre is invited back to the Bronx.”

What a great line….LMAO!!!
http://nyfaninboston.blogspot.com/ Manimal

Freedom of speech mannnn
- LiveFromNewYork
  
  The First Amendment guarantees that the GOVERNMENT will not suppress your speech. Any private employer can and most of them do.
  
  Oprah is famous for her non-disclosure forms before employing any as are several other celebrities. Some famous people who date other famous people typically use mutual non-disclosure forms before they even meet up. Rumor has it that Jeter uses one (otherwise I think a lot more stuff would come out about him). What price fame? STFU, that’s what the price is.
  
  Usually if you sue your employer and settle, the settlement contains mutual non-dispargment clauses. It’s very standard in settlement agreements.
  
  This is not unheard of and not that big a deal actually. It might seem unsavory to some but when you’re the biggest, some protection might be warranted at some point. If a former manager were mouthing off about the Kansas City Royals, no one would care very much.
  - RCK
    
    Rumor has it that Jeter uses one
    
    I had never heard this, but now that you say it, it makes so much sense! Jeter probably keeps a stack of NDAs by the door, and no one even sets foot in his house without signing one. I can just picture it:
    
    Woman: Is this really necessary?
    
    Jeter: Sorry, mom, but you can never be too careful. You and Dad taught me that.
    - jsbrendog
      
      ietc
Yankeegirl49

Torre didn’t suck, but he was not the greatest manager in baseball history the way some make him out to be either.
I appreciate what he did for us, but if he is going to get credit for the wins, he needs to get blame for the losses as well.
His strength was managing personalities…Zim was the baseball man in that dugout.
There is a reason Joe was below .500 before being handed the Yankees.
The Yankees made Joe a winner, he did not make them winners.

Oh and free speech applies to the govt not being able to stop its citizens from speaking out against them. A private company can restrict their employees at will. I doubt anyone here works for a company that would tolerate you standing in the lobby of their headquarters/building/office etc and publicly badmouthing that company. Not the same as writing a book, but an example of why the “free speech” argument doesnt hold water.
- Bo
  
  The guy went to 12 playoffs in 12 yrs and won 4 titles in that time.
  
  Please don’t have revisionist history over it. Give credit where credit is due. The whole “anyone could have won” thing doesn’t work.
  - MattG
    
    I am a big fan of the 1996-2001 Torre. That guy did a wonderful job. He found a formula that worked, and he stuck to it.
    
    The Torre of 2002 on was a growing failure. He stuck to the same formula when he didn’t have the players. What’s more, its not exactly certain he didn’t have the players–he kept burying guys on ridiculously small sample sizes, and undermined their confidence.
    
    When you think about Torre, you just need to think of these two players: Graeme Lloyd, and Carl Farnsworth. Lloyd was nothing when he came here, and Torre built him into a useful part. He did it masterfully. Conversely, Farnsworth came here with the resume to do a job, and Torre very quickly turned him into a punchline.
    
    He was a really good manager. Then he became a really bad one. That’s what happened.
    - UWS
      
      I agree with you, except for one thing: please let’s not use Kyle Farnsworth as an example of anything good or bad that Torre did. It’s well known that Krazy Kyle was a headcase before Torre got his mitts on him.
Bo

So Torre has thrown Carl Pavano, Kevin Brown, Wells, and Randy Johnson under the bus. Anyone disagrees with his assessments?

He has said Alex has a great desire to be the greatest ever and puts too much pressure on himself. And this is news?
- Yankeegirl49
  
  No, it is not news and most likely no one disagrees. What people disagree with is Torre making public things that were said by teammates about teammates and things that went on behind closed doors. Even if, as reported it was 3rd party, his name is on the book and he is going to take the heat for it.
  Im anxious to read it, I’d like to see if he contradicts what he wrote in his first book when things were going good.
- The Honorable Congressman Mondesi
  
  You’re selectively picking out the parts (Pavano, Brown, etc.) that you find less incriminating of Torre in order to support your argument, but you’re leaving out the things in the book about Alex Rodriguez (your characterization of what is said about A-Rod is quite kind to Torre, the book has some pretty negative things to say about A-Rod), Johnny Damon, Brian Cashman and whoever else is discussed in a negative light in the book (I’m sure I’m leaving people out and I also suspect that there will be more names to discuss when the book actually comes out).
  
  And you know what else? Whether anyone agrees or disagrees with anything said about Pavano, Brown, Wells and Johnson and whether anyone even likes those guys is completely irrelevant.
jim

I think the Yankees should just let this slide. I don’t think puting provisions in contracts is a good idea. To me , this just adds to the drama. One thing about the Yankees Dynasty is that there were things they overcame on the road to winning. I can remember Torre’s brother and Torre’s Cancer , etc.
It actually seems fitting that this book come out at this time. The Yankees had great success with 4 world series , then getting to 2 world series but losing, and then being eliminated consecutively. With great success and great failure must come great emotion.
From the moment the season ended, the Yankees have dominated the news with one move after another. It just seems fitting that as this book was coming out the Yankees were resigning Pettitte, the final piece.
Should the Yankees answer this book? Yes, but not by adding clauses to contracts, but by winning multiple championships starting this year. This book is actually an opportunity. It gives this 2009 Yankees team something to overcome.
Mike Z

How do you think the players in LA feel right about now? Do they think that Joe already has a few notes scribbled on a napkin for his next book?
- A.D.
  
  This is exactly the issue I see Torre facing, if you’re a player from the Dodgers, Torre goes from being an ally to someone you cannot trust.
  - http://actyankee.blogspot.com Matt
    
    Definitely agreed. I hope the Dodgers brass at least calls Joe in to have a little chat about this.
    - usty
      
      Hear all about 2008 Andruw Jones in “The Dodger Years”
      - http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside
        
        Hear all about 2008 Andruw Jones in “The Dodger Years”
        
        That should be an interesting 2-page leaflet.
        
        ———————————————
        
        Stewardess: Would you care for anything to read?
        Jive Lady: Do you have anything light?
        Stewardess: How about this leaflet, “Famous Jewish Sports Legends”?
UWS

Can someone enlighten me on the Damon bit? I haven’t seen anything about that. Beltran, Bernie, etc – yes. Damon – no…
- steve (different one)
  
  to me, the Damon bit is almost worse than the stuff about A-Rod. anything about A-Rod is just noise at this point (oh no, he sent people to get him coffee!! what a dick!), but as far as i am concerned there is no reason to reveal what he did about Damon:
  
  In a private meeting, Torre told Damon, “The kind of player you’ve been your whole life is the player who goes out there and fully commits himself. You’re not that kind of person now. It’s easy to see that.”
  
  To which Damon said, “I’m not sure I want to do this.”
  
  The book says one teammate visited Torre and was near tears discussing Damon, saying, “Let’s get rid of him. Guys can’t stand him.”
  - UWS
    
    Wow. Yeah, that’s definitely way worse than the ARod bs.
    
    I can’t decide what to do about this book. On the one hand, I’m curious to read it; on the other, buying it means putting more $$ in Torre/Verducci’s coffers, and I’m not sure I want to do that at the moment.
    - A.D.
      
      it is a catch-22
    - jsbrendog
      
      take it out of the library. or go to borders/barnes and noble and read a chapter a day or something lol
      
      someone will prob take the time to type it out or make it into a pdf and put it up ona torrrent site too haha
    - Should be working
      
      Thats what the internet is for :)
      - http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside
        
        The internet is for sharing pornography and slandering others anonymously.
  - A.D.
    
    To which Damon said, “I’m not sure I want to do this.”
    
    He’s not sure he wants to do what?
    - jsbrendog
      
      ok johnny, you wanna play cf? take off your pants. i promise, this hurts me mroe than ti hurts you.
      
      ::a belt is hearb being unbuckled::
      - http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside
        
        Joe Torre = Spotswoode
    - Nady Nation
      
      I think this was the incident where Damon considered retiring, if you remember it leaked out this year that he thought about walking away before the ’07 season. Blind speculation on my part, but it seems to add up given the context.
I Remember Celerino Sanchez

The problem with any debate about Torre is that people seem to go to one of two extremes, either to make him a saint or to talk about him like he is “Clueless Joe.” Like most things in sports, the truth is in the middle. He did a great job handling his players off the field, and he did a terrible job with his bullpen once he lost his first group of weapons (Nelson-Stanton-Lloyd, mostly). He led the Yanks to World Series titles, as well as allowing them to come back from lousy starts to make the playoffs twice in the 00s. But, he also ruined/set back the careers of too may relievers and was way too afraid to use young relievers, even though that was the very formula so many other teams used. He made some brilliant in-game decisions, and some mind-numbingly stupid ones.

In short, like most managers, he had strengths and weaknesses. To try and pretend he had nothing to do with the succes of the team from 1996 to 2007 is just childish, and to say he was solely responsible for the success (and that the 2008 Yanks would have made the playoffs if he was managing) is equally childish.

Speaking of childish, if the Yanks really want to insult Torre, they should assign the number 6 to Berroa.
- steve (different one)
  
  this is a fair assessment.
  - JohnnyC
    
    But Torre brings this on himself. HE’S the one who considers himself the GREATEST MANAGER IN THE GAME. Otherwise, why insist that his pay not be cut and that the 1 year contract was an insult? A contract that at its base would still make him the highest paid manager in the game by 40% and with incentives would have surpassed his previous salary of $7.9 million a year? Who’s being childish?
    - I Remember Celerino Sanchez
      
      I am not willing to go all the way and agree with Torre that he should have dismissed the one-year deal so easily. But you are not being fair in the way you frame the situation. Working on a one-year deal shows that ownership has no faith in you. In the NFL, they almsot never let a coach work in his lame duck year. It has to be someone like Holmgren, and even that didn’t work.
      
      By offering him a one-year deal, with a pay cut, the Yanks were clearly telling Torre it was over. Again, I’m not 100 percent defending Torre’s reaction, but I do think your synopsis of the situation is unfair.
steve (different one)

more from Torre:

When the pinch-runner Dave Roberts stole second base in the fateful ninth inning of Game 4 of the 2004 A.L.C.S., Tom Verducci and Torre write, he had no intention of stealing second on the first pitch because his legs were not yet loose. But Mariano Rivera helped him by making three pickoff attempts before his first pitch to Bill Mueller. “Rivera had done him a favor,” the book says. “Roberts was now fully immersed in the flow of the game. His plan had changed. He made up his mind to steal on the first pitch.”

instead of admitting that he maybe should have CALLED A PITCHOUT, he slyly implies that Rivera is to blame for throwing over to first 3 times.

basically this entire book is about how Torre should not be blamed for anything that happened after 2001. everything is someone else’s fault.
- A.D.
  
  Badmouthing Mo….not smooth
- Yankeegirl49
  
  BINGO!!!
  He wants (and has received) all of the credit for winning, but takes ZERO blame for losing. THAT is my issue.
  Well that and the fact that he didnt call for one bunt attempt on Shilling and the damn bloody sock!
  - A.D.
    
    Apparently he can also now read Dave Roberts mind
- JohnnyC
  
  No intention of stealing second? Why the fuck would Francona have put him into the game? To catch up on gossip with Jason Giambi?
- jim
  
  wow
  
  One consistent thing about Mo’s supposed failures (game 7 Arizona and Game 4 Boston) is that Torre was bringing him in for the eigth inning.
  
  As far as whose fault it is , that is the emotion of it. I’m sure Joe wanted to win again and he must have gone over each little thing as to what if this didn’t happen etc etc.
  
  whose fault ? why ?
  
  The best answer to this book is to win the World Series this year.
Andy

I for one was calling for Torre’s head for his last couple of years in pinstripes, for a couple of reasons: (1) he would routinely pull starting pitchers too quickly, (2) relatedly, would then call on the same few guys to get the resulting extra outs until their arms fell off (see Proctor, Scott, Sturtze, Tanyon) and (3) again relatedly, he would play favorites, which was great for the guys that he liked, but crushed the guys he didn’t (everyone from Quantrill to Lofton). As a former college player, I can tell you a manager’s trust in you goes an incredibly long way, and is significantly underestimated – see Bobby Cox. And the fact is, Torre made it exceptionally clear he didn’t trust certain guys, and those guys unsurprizingly didn’t perform.

This past year proved two things: (1) I was completley right about the bullpen, and (2) I underestimated Torre’s ability to get good performances from his hitters. The fact is that Girardi was unbelievable managing the bullpen, and took Mo, a head case, and a bunch of no-names and had one of the top 5 or so bullpens in baseball, especially considering their rotation; but the offense sagged.

But what this book confirmed was the worst of my three gripes about Torre – that he favored certain players to the detriment of others. No matter how you look at it, no matter the context, he threw a bunch of guys under the bus, guys who were not “his” guys. That, to me, is reprehensible. He, like a bully, picked on the easiest targets, the poor fat kid with no friends, guys like the unpopular and easily criticized ARod and the hated Pavano.

People like to hate on ARod, and he admittedly doesn’t make it easy, but the guy (cheating on his wife notwithstanding) is not a bad guy. Is he arrogant? Sure, but at least he tries no be humble, unlike so many other self-agrandizing players in the league; you think Jeter isn’t arrogant? Please.

Torre won some championships, and deserves a lot of credit; but right now he is a f-ing BUM in my book, and I will probably never come back to the St. Joe camp.
- MattG
  
  I agree mostly–well said, but I am not sure the hitting was Girardi’s fault, and you forget to mention his meddling with Cashman’s job. You mention “his guys,” and too often I think Cashman tried to placate Torre by giving him “his guys.”
  
  It is easy to cite counter examples, but Torre habitually bitched about needing bullpen help, so Cashman spent tons of money on some stupid quick fixes. Without Torre’s ear in the organization, I wonder how many of those middle relief contracts would’ve been made.
Yankeegirl49

Well said Andy, I agree with every word.
Well, except I didnt play in college..they wouldnt let me LOL
- Andy
  
  They barely let me…
Whitey14

First of all, as a fan, I love books like Ball Four, Lords of the Realm, Veeck as in Wreck, etc., because they give us that look behind closed doors that so many of us want. I haven’t read Torre’s book, but I do plan on reading it as soon as possible. I think a lot of people are posting purely on emotion and the feeling that Joe Torre has somehow tainted the Yankees, which isn’t true. Several dozen books by and about former yankees players and teams have revealed horrifying tales from the clubhouse too. Why is Torre’s book any worse than those? I can’t help but think a book like this about the sordid happenings in Fenway’s clubhouse would be welcomed with open arms and would be posting fodder for weeks. As a Sox fan, I’d certainly want to read it. I wonder how Yankees fans felt when Kevin Millar was claiming the Red Sox did shots of whiskey before some games.
Any team that uses a NDA will look bad, because it makes it look like they’re afraid of what former employers will say. I’m not sure if any other team currently uses one, but players should be hesitant to sign away their rights to tell their story after their career is over. Especially when, if they’re the type whose career would warrant a book, they could sign elsewhere anyway. What would a team expect, a guy to lie about his time with the team if it wasn’t all rosy, or skip that chapter altogether in his biography? Maybe a page that says, “sorry, because I didn’t enjoy my time in city X and they made me sign an agreement to never disparage them, I have to skip the next X years of my career in this book”. And now on to my career as a color analyst.
I think the whole concept of the NDA is ridiculous, although with the Yankees having so many accounts of their history out on the market, it doesn’t surprise me that they want to squelch any more negative ones.
- Nady Nation
  
  Have you seen what Torre said about Canseco’s latest book? There’s a great clip on WFAN.com from an interview he did back in ’07 on that matter, during which he confirms that by writing this book, he is a complete sellout and phony. How about him fining Wells $100,000 for writing a book that detailed events inside the Yankee clubhouse? Torre comes off as a massive hypocrite, which I think is pretty surprising and disappointing to most Yankee fans, since he seemed like a genuine and trustworthy guy, for the most part, before this incident.
  - jsbrendog
    
    well played sir. i had forgotten this.
- jsbrendog
  
  Why is Torre’s book any worse than those?
  
  because it came out while HE is still managing current players, showing them that they will get thrown under the bus in 2 yrars when “chavez ravine: the dend game” comes out and he makes fun of andruw jones for being a fat whiny bitch and jeff kent for being a red neck and etc etc etc.
  
  and it comes out while HIS PLAYERS HE IS BADMOUTHING still play as well.
  
  it is disgraceful. the book itself, whatever, fine. but why is he trying to make mroe money when he still is rakig in millions for ruining young arms in los angeles?
  
  this book should not have come out until he was retired and was like, shit, i want more money cause im a greedy old asshole. let me badmouth everyone from my old teams. these players did not turn their backs on joe, the yankees brass did ( accoring to joe) so hy is he getting bakc at them by abdmouthing his team players??
  
  way to go joe, you idiot. you were too naive and probably thought this was a good idea. its not. you made yourself a lame duck in la. those players will be damned before they confide in you.
  - A.D.
    
    On top of that we’ve only seen badmouthing when they didn’t win. There’s no:
    
    “everyone thought if Bernie tried half as hard at getting jumps on the base paths as playing his guitar he could steal 40 bases a year”
    
    “or everyone called Knoblach Knob-blows when he came over hit .265 & couldn’t throw to first”
    
    Now maybe nothing interesting or negative happened in 1996-2001, but I doubt it.
    - jsbrendog
      
      they called him knob-blows cause he asked if he could do coke off other player’s wife’s titties
- A.D.
  
  I don’t think people are posting on emotion because it taints the Yankees. He’s mainly bashing the non-championship years, so there is less to taint.
  
  People are posting because Torre is throwing a lot of players under the bus at a time when they’re still playing and Torre is still managing where most tell-all end after at least the man behind the book is done. What this really does is just make Torre look bitter about his departure, and then throws a bunch of guys under the bus for their insecurities and putting trust in Joe.
  - Nady Nation
    
    Well put. I think most Yankee fans are most upset about both the timing, and how Joe was perceived (because of his own personal “morals” on how former baseball players should conduct themselves) before this book was released.
Yankeegirl49

Whitey..its not that he tainted the Yanks. I couldnt care less about the Yanks public image. Hell, I lived thru “the Bronx Zoo” of the 70’s. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. The problem is, as stated before, is that he is pushing the blame on everyone else for the Yankee playoff losses, while accepting none of it himself. (At least thats what Im hearing, obviously I havent read it yet)
Also, this isnt the first book he has written and in the other one he sings the Yanks praises and talks about how wonderful a place it is to be.
This seems like nothing more than sour grapes and vindictiveness. I have no problem with him writing it, but he had to know he was going to take the heat and be looked upon in a different light after sharing personal stuff that happened in the clubhouse.
- jsbrendog
  
  you should try to use the reply to this comment button at the lower left hand corner of each comment. It makes the discussione asier to follow and helps the person you’re answering respond better to you as wlel.
  
  (h/t to congressman mondesi)
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

Joe Torre writing this book = Bad Idea Jeans
steve (different one)

i’m not sure i would ever stop laughing if Manny signed with the Giants and when asked why said “well, the money was similar, but i felt like the trust was gone from the clubhouse in LA”
- A.D.
  
  That would be funny…after the praise of getting guys to come to NY, he’s the anti-trusted clubhouse guy
  - http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside
    
    Reporter: Manny, why’d you pick San Fransisco over Los Angeles?
    Manny: I couldn’t trust Joe Torre. He’s a snake and a liar, and he’s everything that’s wrong with baseball. I can’t be in the same clubhouse with a guy so obsessed with himself who shows so little respect for the game.
    
    (grins and points both index fingers at Alex Cora)
- usty
  
  Anyone else willing to bet that Manny doesn’t even know Torre was the Yankees manager?
  - jsbrendog
    
    i like that action.
  - http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside
    
    What the hell is a “Manager”?
jim

At this point ,Torre’s sole chance at getting back to the world series is tied to the Dodgers getting Manny. If the Yankees were really pissed …
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