Injury Report: Nady, Bruney, Marte, Ransom, Molina, Wang

Yanks ten over .500 after 12-3 drubbing of Texas
2009 Draft: KLaw's updated mock draft

It’s hard to believe that the Yanks start June 3 with the best record in the American League. They’ve seen a few key contributors miss significant playing time and were without A-Rod until the middle of May. It makes me wonder how quick a start the Yankees could have had if the entire team were healthy.

Anyway, as the Yanks sit at ten games over .500, they’re still missing five key players with a sixth in a sort of pitching limbo. The team’s Opening Day right fielder is out along with the lefty and right set up men, the back-up infielder and the back-up catcher. We have updates for all of these guys this morning so let’s just jump in.

Xavier Nady: When we last heard from Nady on Monday, he had suffered a set back in his throwing program at Tampa. That day, he had felt something in his injured elbow, and the team was concerned it could be serious. Nady threw again yesterday and, in what Joe Girardi called an improvement, felt pain during only two throws.

Now, pain during two throws doesn’t sound too promising, but Nady is attempting to rehab a badly injured elbow while strengthening the supporting muscles. Anything the Yanks get from him this season will be icing on the cake. He will take off today and resume throwing tomorrow.

Brian Bruney: The Yanks once and future 8th inning guy began a throwing program yesterday. The Yanks have no timetable for his return yet, and I believe the team will take it slower with him this time around. I predict late June but possible after the All Star Break.

Damaso Marte: The Yanks’ left-handed reliever and late-inning specialist stubbed his toe earlier this week but will be back at it later this week. He will throw a bullpen on Friday, and the Yankees will evaluate his injury — now described as shoulder tendinitis — afterward.

Cody Ransom: Ransom injured his quad on April 25 and, due to roster needs, was immediately placed on the 60-day DL. He is eligible to come off on June 24 and will begin a rehab assignment with Scranton on Thursday. While I’m not sure what Ransom offers offensively at this point, he is a marked upgrade over Angel Berroa.

Jose Molina: Molina had to go for an MRI earlier this week when he injured his quad while rehabbing his hamstring. For a back-up catcher, Molina has suffered through a considerable number of leg injuries while with the Yankees. The team has not announce the results of the MRI yet.

Chien-Ming Wang: And finally, we arrive at the non-injured Chien-Ming Wang. The Yanks’ sinkerball specialist has thrown well of late and made an abbreviated appearance on Sunday. In a move that probably cost the Yanks a shot at the game, he was pulled after just three innings in case he had to start on Wednesday in place of Andy Pettitte (back spasms). Well, the move was for naught as Pettitte will take the mound on Wednesday.

Meanwhile, the Yanks said on Tuesday that Phil Hughes will be starting on Friday and that Wang will remain in the bullpen. How the Yankees plan to get Wang enough regular work to build up the arm strength to move him back into the rotation is anyone’s guess. No pitcher has pitched their way out of the rotation yet, and Wang has thrown five good innings after tossing two bad ones in his return from the DL. I still think he should have made another rehab start, but the Yankees have a plan. They’re just not sharing it with anyone else.

Yanks ten over .500 after 12-3 drubbing of Texas
2009 Draft: KLaw's updated mock draft
  • Jake H

    Now that the team is finally getting healthy hopefully they get on a roll. I would like to see Wang back in the rotation. His stuff looks to be about there. I think it will depend on what Hughes does this start. If he sucks it up or struggles I could see them sending him back to AAA. The guy needs innings so that next year they can unleash him.

    If he throws 150 or so innings this year that means he can go 180 the following year. With C.C and Wang if he gets back to full strength that is easily 400 innings right there. Burnett can go 180 to 200 unless he gets hurt. They won’t have to worry about innings.

    • AndrewYF

      Hopefully they get on a roll? What do you call winning 16 games out of 20?

      • Zack

        Unacceptable. They need to win 20 out of 20

        • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

          They need to win 21 games out of 20. Anything less is failure.

  • http://pinstripealley.com Edwantsacracker

    I like your faith that there is a plan for Wang…

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Benjamin Kabak

      Well, they say they have a plan. We’ll see.

      • http://www.votepaulformayor.blogspot.com jsbrendog

        news reporter: so, brian, you say you have a plan?

        cashman: yes, we say we have a plan.

        news reporter: so do you really have a plan?

        cashman: we have a plan.

        • Sweet Lou

          It’s a three phase plan:

          Phase 1 – Steal Underpants
          Phase 2 – ?????
          Phase 3 – Profit!

          • http://www.wiredtowns.com Short Porch

            An underpants gnome reference. 11:30 AM. My day is complete.

  • Joe R

    Kinda crazy to think we could actually get better than where we are now.

  • JP

    The plan, I’ll bet, is something vague like this:

    “We can’t send Hughes or Chamberlain to Scranton. They’re doing too well, and we need them to keep improving at the MLB level.”

    “No f-ing way Chamberlain’s going to the bullpen; don’t want to screw up his arm.”

    “We can be a bit more liberal with Wang, and since we’re still not 100% sure he won’t start pitching batting practice again, let’s use him as a secret weapon reliever for now.”

    “At some point, someone’s going to go down with an injury. Or we’ll need a spot starter for a double header or something. Or, we get into July and August and we can slow Hughes and Chamberlain down so that we can still use them in the playoffs if we want to. Wang can fill in all the cracks.”

    Everything is going well. Do you really want to see Phil Hughes sent to Scranton, in exchange for, say Albaladejo or Ramirez, and roll the dice with Wang in the rotation? I don’t.

    One thing I’m relatively sure of is that Girardi has good instincts about pitchers and knows how to handle them and manage them. I like what he’s doing. (At least, I think it’s him calling the shots…I suppose it could be Cashman and the player development people imposing “Joba/Hughes Rules” still, but I think this is Girardi’s call.)

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Benjamin Kabak

      That’s pretty much where I come out. The team has been doing well lately, and I’m inclined to trust those in charge with this one. That’s a different tune than the one I was singing a few weeks ago.

      I still wish Wang had more one or two more rehab starts, but it seems that, if the Yanks deploy him properly, he can be an effective piece of the pitching staff.

      • MattG

        I am glad you have come to see the other side of the discussion.

        But I, on the other hand, would rail a bit about him not starting today. If they held him off a 4th inning the other night, and out of all the subsequent games, then he should pitch. Wouldn’t Pettitte’s back feel all that much better if he had a start skipped? There are plenty of innings in the bullpen, what with an 8 inning performance from that guy that can’t get into the 6th, and a blowout yesterday.

        Give Pettitte a blow and start Wang. This really makes little sense to me.

        • JP

          I agree, although I’ll mention that this is a family friendly blog and we should be careful about writing “blow” and “Wang” in the same sentence. ;-)

      • Chris

        Let’s say that Wang did get one more (or two more) starts in AAA. How does that really change the situation today?

        He would have thrown more innings, but I think there would be even less confidence that he wouldn’t start throwing BP because all he had faced were minor leaguers. You’d still be left with 6 effective starters and only 5 spots for them.

        • http://www.riveraveblues.com Benjamin Kabak

          Well, right now, he says he’s limited to 80 pitches when he finally gets to start. Two more rehab appearances could have solved that problem.

          • ClayBuchholzLovesLaptops

            I don’t know about that. He might have been able to pitch 100 right after the promotion, but he still would have been limited to 50-60 pitch relief stints. Would he really been able to jump from these 50-60 to 100 in an instant? He threw 75 on May 17, his last game in Scranton, so he should have been able to up it to 90-95 after that, right?

          • Chris

            If him being able to throw 80 vs 100 pitches is the only drawback, then that’s not a big deal. That’s roughly 1 inning that needs to be covered for 1 start.

            PeteAbe is beating the drum about how he’s going to completely fall apart because of a lack of regular work, but it’s not like he’s been rotting in the pen for weeks. He came up on 5/22 and pitched that night. He had 4 days off then pitched again. Then 3 days off and another appearance. That’s not a typical reliever’s schedule, that’s more like a spring training schedule.

            It can be frustrating at times, but I think there is value in letting him regain some confidence facing major league hitter in relatively low stress situations before moving him to the rotation.

  • John

    I hope we get bruney and marte back so we can just DFA Veras. Did you see him in the 9th inning yesterday? Jorge basically had to yell at him to throw a fastball. He was facing Ian Kinsler and I believe there was a 3-2 count with 2 outs and Jorge signaled for a fastball, Veras shook him off. Posada then signaled for fastball again, Veras shook him off again. At this point Posada ignored Veras shake and did not throw another sign and just hit his glove to indicate “just throw the friggin pitch.” Veras obliged and threw a fastball and Kinsler popped out to end the game. Posada then walked to him, shook his hand and i believe said something along the lines of “just throw strikes.”

    What was Veras thinking trying to throw a offspeed pitch with a nine run lead in the 9th inning? I know O’Neill and Kay made light of this during the post-game. You throw 96mph, just throw the ball and if he hits it then so be it. I’m pretty sure if Posada had listened to Veras’ shake off, he would have walked Kinsler. Great job by Posada and please just DFA Veras.

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Benjamin Kabak

      This tells you all you need to know: Jose Veras threw 18 pitches last night in the ninth inning of a nine-run game and just 10 of them were strikes. The only reason he threw more strikes than balls was because Kinsler fouled off so many pitches.

    • JP

      Ix-nay on the DFA-ay of Eras-vay.

      Seriously…I’d rather DFA someone like Edwar. Veras has been, at times, very, very good. I don’t think he’s a guy you give up on yet. Against Youkilis or Miguel Cabrera in the playoffs, Edwar gives up a homer. Veras can get guys like that out.

      I’m probably being too optimistic, because I guess he’s a head case and is, like you say, destined for DFA, but I think there’s a reason they are sticking with him.

      • Stryker

        i think the only reason the yanks are “sticking with him” is because they don’t want him to go to another team where he can essentially hurt them (any team in the AL let alone another AL east team). at this point i’d rather throw him to the waiver wolves than continue to be an albatross in the major league bullpen. let another team try and help him out – we’ve done enough.

        • Andy In Sunny Daytona

          What have you done specifically?

          • Some call me…tim

            Look, you pay $42 for four

            • Some call me…tim

              ….beers and I think you’ve earned the right to say “we.”

        • JGS

          Given past trends, he’ll end up on the Pirates

        • Chris

          If Veras had any options left, he would be pitching in Scranton now. That’s the only reason he’s still on the major league roster.

  • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

    My initial thought processes/non-educated guesses on each of them:

    Nady – Probably activated two weeks from now as a DH; plays the field (sparingly) after the ASB. The bad news is, he’s kinda like a glorified DH; the good news is, Swish, Damon, Melky, and Gardner have all played well enough that we can live with any three of the four of them in the lineup and we’re okay. The fact that neither Melky nor Gardner have become black holes makes it much easier to play both of them at the same time when we want to give either Damon or Swisher a breather, so we don’t really need to play Nady in the corners that much. Take it slow with him.
    Bruney – not activated until after the ASB. Rounds back into shape and reassumes the Mike Stanton Bridge to Mowhere that we all know is perfect for him.
    Marte – I’m already mentally writing it off as a lost season. Best case scenario he’s healthy come the end of August and September is his audition to prove he’s shaken off enough rust to earn a spot on the postseason roster.
    Ransom – I literally could not care less.
    Molina – See Marte. I feel like he’ll be gone most of the season, and come back just in time to get ready for September. Which is good, because that’s probably about the time Cervelli will have firmly come back to Earth.
    Wang – Ahh, the riddle in an enigma in a conundrum. I think he stays in the pen for another few weeks, and then by the end of June, he takes his spot back and Phil goes back to Scranton until August/September when he returns to take the last of Joba’s starts (after we shut Joba down). Hopefully, Wang’s “straightened himself out”, if you know what I mean (and I think you do…)

    • JP

      TSJC:

      1. Nady: agree.
      2. Bruney: agree.
      3. Marte: I have no clue, so I’ll agree.
      4. Ransom: agree.
      5. Molinia: disagree. Tough catcher. He must always feel like his quads and hammies hurt, so I think he’s back, latest after the ASB.
      6. Wang: I’ll bet you a coke (not a Coke), that you’re wrong. I say the Yankees are content to keep Wang zippered unless one of the following opportunities rears its head (hehhhh):

      a) Injury (duh). Obviously he’s back in the rotation if someone goes down.
      b) Joba or Hughes implodes. I define that as two consecutive total suck starts.
      c) Joba or Hughes nears innings limit, and the team decides they want to either totally shut them down for the year, or save them to do some playoff pitching.

      I think they are committed to having Joba and Hughes reach their limit at the MLB level, if they can do it effectively. They are willing to play around with Wang a bit, figuring he’s resilient and can pop right back up into the rotation when he’s needed.

      • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

        I think they are committed to having Joba and Hughes reach their limit at the MLB level, if they can do it effectively.

        No, I think they’re prefer that Joba and Hughes reach their limits while pitching at the MLB level. I don’t know that they’re “committed” to it. Were they committed to it, we probably wouldn’t have signed Andy Pettitte, we would have just put Hughes in the rotation from jump.

        What I’d surmise they are “committed” to is putting their 29 year old veteran who is making ten times as much money as Joba and Hughes, who won 38 games in a two year span, right back in the starting rotation as soon as he’s ready. JMHO. If that means Hughes has to go back to Scranton because he’s the youngest and he’s already burned an option year this year, so be it. He can go back down there and keep refining his secondary pitches in a stress-free environment.

        • JP

          So we’re on – a coke to the winner?

          • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

            Sure, you got it.

            (Joke’s on you… I’ve still got a case of “New Coke” from the ’80s sitting in my basement. You’re gonna be so disgusted if you win… HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!)

            • http://www.votepaulformayor.blogspot.com jsbrendog

              at least its nto crystal pepsi.

              that stuff made me puke. in. my mouth.

              • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

                Crystal Gravy.

            • JP

              Ok. So to be specific: The terms are

              1) If Joba and Hughes remain in the rotation, neither replaced by Wang unless they totally suck or get injured, I win.

              2) If Wang rehabs as a reliever for a while and then there’s an announcement that Hughes or Joba are optioned to Scranton and Wang takes over, you win.

              Is this correct?

              • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

                Yes.

                And then we fight to the death. Or possibly to the pain.

      • ChrisS

        The fact that neither Melky nor Gardner have become black holes makes it much easier to play both of them

        Not for nothing, but Le Leche has been in sub-orbital decay for the better part of the last month. Taking his shoulder injury into consideration, he’s still putting up a line of .289/.329/.382 since May 5th with a 9:5 K:BB ratio (two of the walks coming in the last two games). As his SLG continues to plunge much like last year, I think he’s got a sub-.650 OPS in him. In April he drew a walk in 10% of his PAs, in May, it dropped to 4%.

        I really want Melky to be April-Melky all season long, but my belief that he turned a corner or something is wavering.

    • MattG

      This deserves its own post, but if the Yankees are fortunate enough to have 6 healthy starting pitchers for the bulk of the season, I will be very disappointed in them if they do not find a way to spread Joba’s innings out over all 7 months and a day (if necessary).

      Especially when you consider the possibility the Red Sox might have found the solved the Verducci riddle, as evidenced by Jon Lester.

      • JP

        What is “the Verducci riddle?”

        • JobaWockeeZ

          If a pitcher under the age of 25 I think and they pitch 30 innings more than they were supposed to last year they are more at risk.

        • Tampa Yankee

          Solved what riddle?

          Jon Lester (162 IP last year, 237 this year – 76 inning increase). Lester’s situation is certainly unique: he has progressed nicely in his recovery from cancer, and seemed to gain strength as the season progressed. I’d subjectively guess that Lester is less likely to be effected by the innings increase than another pitcher, simply due to Lester’s conditioning program that allowed him to re-gain his strength (and then some) after cancer. I have also full faith in the Red Sox’s ability to handle him appropriately. Still, a 76 inning increase is enormous, and probably makes Lester a risk.

          Lester’s 2009 stats (65.1 innings)
          * W-L 4-5
          * ERA 5.65
          * K 74
          * Walks 24 (66 in 205.1 innings last year)
          * WHIP 1.55 (11 hr’s in 2009 vs 14 in 2008)

          He seems to fit the bill to me.

          • Tampa Yankee

            This reply should be to MattG

      • UWS

        I’m pretty sure the Red Sox haven’t solved anything: Lester hasn’t been injured, but he has also kind of sucked this year. Or perhaps “inconsistent” is a better way to call his season.

        • MattG

          I did not know Lester was sucking. Oddly, ESPN has had little to say about it. Why would that be?

          • Zack

            because he was their cy young winner

        • Zack

          the explanation i hear from weei and such is that his FB is just an inch or two higher (in height) then it was last year, instead of at the knees its right about the knees. and he’s just having one day inning a game, instead of minimizing damage

      • CountryClub

        Nothing indicates that the Sox solved anything. Lester has been bad for the most part this year and teams are hitting his FB at an alarming rate. The rule doesnt just apply to injuries. It also states that pitchers can just flat out suck the following year.

        • Zack

          ‘flat out suck’ = lose stuff on certain pitches. lose control FB, lose sharpness of breaking stuff, etc

      • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

        I will be very disappointed in them if they do not find a way to spread Joba’s innings out over all 7 months and a day (if necessary).

        You can’t just keep skipping Joba or Hughes’ turns in the rotation and putting Wang in their place, because all three of them will be totally thrown off their rhythm and be rusty.

        The whole “let’s just keep shoehorning 3 starters into 2 rotation spots so that we can delay Joba and Hughes’s shutdown dates” isn’t realistic. Pitchers need to be pitching every 5 days. Not 5 days, skip a start, then 10 days, then skip another start. It’s not feasible.

        • JP

          Disagree. Prove it. Look, I’m not saying it’s ideal to do this do-si-do with the pitchers. But it is feasible, and realistic. There are lots of pitchers who spot start, relieve, etc., all season. No, it’s not generally done with your front-line guys, it’s someone like Dan Guise who is relegated to this type of treatment. But this is a special situation, I think, when you’re talking about developing two young pitchers at the MLB level.

          We wouldn’t be having the discussion if Wang was 5-2 4.20 right now, and didn’t have the games where he pitched like William Bendix. But he did.

          • http://www.riveraveblues.com Benjamin Kabak

            This doesn’t “prove” anything because it’s one start. The Yanks, though, noted that Joba’s ineffectiveness last week in Texas was because he had thrown just 0.2 innings over a 10-day span. He was significantly better this week when his regular turn came around.

            Admittedly, that’s anecdotal, but it’s one for TSJC’s point.

            • MattG

              That was the reason, but it doesn’t explain the other outings in which Joba had trouble reaching 90 in the first inning. There is something else going on with his ability to get loose. Maybe extra rest would hurt him, but if so, that would make him the exception, not the rule.

              • http://www.riveraveblues.com Benjamin Kabak

                Those other outings were explained by his not warming up enough. Since he started throwing more in warm ups, his velocity has improved.

                • MattG

                  Man, it sounds to me like Joba just needs to pitch. He probably is the exception. He probably needs to just air it out every fifth day.

                • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

                  Man, it sounds to me like Joba just needs to pitch. He probably is the exception. He probably needs to just air it out every fifth day.

                  Bingo.

                  No more skipped starts. Just give him the ball every fifth day, and whenever he reaches his limit, pat him on the butt, give him an attaboy, and shut him down.

                • MattG

                  But no–if he’s the exception, that also means the Verducci rules do not apply to him. He can’t be the exception to one rule, and the poster boy of another.

            • Chris

              Joba’s problems in Texas could just as likely have been related to the rain delay, as the layoff.

          • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

            But you said it yourself.

            The pitchers that you flex around and give non-rhythmic spot starts to are the Dan Gieses and the Aaron Smalls (and, frankly, the Al Aceveses) of the world. You do that to them because they’re older and you’re not worried about their development.

            Joba and Hughes primary goal this year was to develop themselves into starting pitchers capable of taking the hill every fifth day and building up their arm to eventual 200+ innings capability. I’m fine skipping each of them a start or two over the course of the season. I’m not fine with a plan where they’re skipped NUMEROUS starts over the course of the season. If Joba’s pitching 6 IP per start, that’s only 25 starts on the year before he hits his cap. There’s 33 turns through the rotation per start on the year (not counting for rainouts and such.) That means there would have to be EIGHT TIMES where Joba’s pitching on 9 days rest. Eight outings where he’s rusty.

            I think that’s too much. I think the best way for Joba to learn to pitch deep into games every fifth day is for Joba to be given the opportunity to pitch deep into games every fifth day. If that burns up his 25 start limit in August, so be it. It will be for the best in the long run.

            • MattG

              Nolan Ryan would like you.

              • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

                Nolan Ryan could be a genius or an idiot regarding his theories about pitching health.

                We’ll find out soon enough.

                • MattG

                  I’m leaning towards idiot. Nolan Ryan was a freak, and now he wants his pitchers to do what worked for him.

                  That’ll work–if they’re freaks, too.

                  But I might overstate it. Maybe he realizes just how freaky he was.

                • Evan

                  But pitchers have been throwing for years like Nolan Ryan did. The pitch count is a recent development, and maybe Ryan is onto something. I would love to see more guys finishing games and getting more wins. Maybe the 300 victory pitcher isn’t dead…

                • MattG

                  But pitchers have been throwing for years like Nolan Ryan did.

                  No one threw like Nolan Ryan did.

                  I guess you mean without pitch counts. Pitch counts, and their correlation to injury, are a discovery of advanced physiological study–they are not an invention of baseball-hating geeks. If Ryan really intends to totally disregard new discoveries, he can relive the experiences of the Mets under Dallas Green, and the Cubs under Dusty Baker.

                • JP

                  Too many variables to know for sure whether Ryan is right or not.

                  A pitch is not a pitch is not a pitch. Some pitches hurt a pitcher more than others…mechanics, a pitcher’s body type and shape, the tempo of pitches (how many you through per unit time), etc., all probably play into how much risk of injury there is.

                  Basic pitch counts are a crude way to measure the stress on a pitcher, and I think we are learning that, at least for modern pitchers, they can be used to prevent serious injury.

                  But we may be using a meat cleaver to kill a mosquito. I honestly don’t know how trainers and sports medicine guys figure these things out, but you could envision, say, that while 120 pitches every 5 days is a limit, you could safely throw 90 every 4 days. A revelation like this could lead us back to 4 man rotations, and getting more innings out of the better pitchers.

                  Everyone has latched onto the statistical concept of “sample size,” and realizes it is easy to make false generalizations about things. I’ll tell you that the evidence being presented to us via sportswriters to support the pitch limits, annual innings limits, etc., is, to a clinical person like me, extremely flimsy. “Anecdotal,” as we say, not rigorously studied. The fact that 5 or 10 pitchers broke down after increasing their annual workload by X number of innings doesn’t prove anything about “X.” An observation like this is certainly important and should lead to formal studies, but it isn’t de facto proof that it is harmful to pitchers to increase their workload by some magic number.

                  One could just as easily argue that the reason pitchers are getting injured is that they aren’t throwing enough pitches in training, etc.

                  The only thinkg I know is that with 30 baseball teams, it’s getting pretty gawdawful to watch all of these terrible pitchers who can’t throw strikes. Something has to be done to improve the general effectiveness of pitchers, either by rules changes or some pretty significant improvements in the science of pitch training, etc.

          • http://mantisfists.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/julius-carry-aka-shonuff.jpg The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

            “No, it’s not generally done with your front-line guys, it’s someone like Dan Guise who is relegated to this type of treatment.”

            Isn’t that because it’s probably not the best thing for the health/development of the pitcher and, thus, not the kind of thing you want to take a chance on doing to your two top young pitchers?

            • JP

              I was more talking about letting Wang be the one flapping in the breeze this way. I’m talking about basically having Hughes and Joba miss a start every now and then – not highly irregular starts.

              What I would like best, as long as they are healthy and effective, is for Hughes and Chamberlain to pitch regularly for the Yankees this season until they get near – but not completely up to – their innings limit. Then you shut them down or otherwise slow them way down and let Wang enter the rotation.

              In this way, Wang would replace Joba first, who would likely reach his limit in August.

              Wang would be the one who is a spot starter, reliever, swing man, Dan Guise, etc., until then.

              I have been convinced, by TSJC and others, that it would be awkward and dumb to try to systematically keep all three pitchers active and starting all season, sharing 2 roles. Not in the literal sense.

              What I am emphatically against is sending Phil Hughes or Joba to pitch at Scranton when they are capable of pitching well at the MLB level.

              It would be different if CMP were a lights out, fantastic pitcher. He isn’t. He had 2 19 win seasons, yes, but if you look closeley at Wang’s metrics, he is not a dominant pitcher. He just isn’t. He doesn’t strike out enough guys and doesn’t have the swing and miss stuff that allows you to get elite hitters out routinely.

              I’m not trying to say he’s Dan Guise, either. But when we have 2 young pitchers who, this year anyway, look to be on a trajectory to be dominant, front line starting pitchers, I don’t think you send them to Scranton to stamp bottlecaps so you can trot CMP out to the mound every 5th day, especially when he has a host of “issues.” It will pay much higher dividends, and much earlier returns, if Hughes and Joba pitch effectively for the Yankees, rather than the Scranton team.

              If there’s anyone that we should allow ourselves to jerk around a little, it should be Wang. Not the others. And unless this season proves to be a rare one where none of our big three starters misses a single start due to injury, there is the likelihood that all three of these guys WILL get plenty of chances to start.

              (Man it’s fun working these puns in…)

              • http://mantisfists.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/julius-carry-aka-shonuff.jpg The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

                I just want to point out that I was responding to the exchange below. What you just wrote is different.

                tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside says:
                June 3rd, 2009 at 10:46 am
                The whole “let’s just keep shoehorning 3 starters into 2 rotation spots so that we can delay Joba and Hughes’s shutdown dates” isn’t realistic. Pitchers need to be pitching every 5 days. Not 5 days, skip a start, then 10 days, then skip another start. It’s not feasible.
                Reply

                JP says:
                June 3rd, 2009 at 10:53 am
                Disagree. Prove it. Look, I’m not saying it’s ideal to do this do-si-do with the pitchers. But it is feasible, and realistic.

                • JP

                  Yeah…I sorta changed my argument.

                  My main point, considering all the factors, is that I think it’s better to have Joba/Phil pitch regularly at the MLB level, this season. I’m willing to get creative with CMW in order to do it.

                  I’d change my mind quickly if either Phil or Joba suddenly became very ineffective at the MLB level. I’d also change my mind, maybe, if Wang got a start to rest Pettitte and pitched 8 shutout innings.

                  Alot of my argument is based more on what I think of Wang than either of the youngsters. I’m still very leery of him.

              • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

                G-I-E-S-E

        • http://mantisfists.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/julius-carry-aka-shonuff.jpg The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

          I’m sure you’ve said this before… But do you think they should just keep running Joba out there until he hits his limit, then just shut him down for the rest of the season? I guess the same applies to Hughes, but his innings limit is a bit higher.

          • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

            Yes, and yes.

            • JP

              Sometimes (often?) starters are used in relief in the playoffs. Do you think that if Hughes/Joba were shut down in, say, August or September, the team might put them on the playoff roster to be used in relief?

              (Those innings limits are per year, and I would assume that at some point you click over to the next “pitching fiscal year” or something? In other words, pitching in mid to late October might be legal?)

              • http://mantisfists.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/julius-carry-aka-shonuff.jpg The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

                “(Those innings limits are per year, and I would assume that at some point you click over to the next “pitching fiscal year” or something? In other words, pitching in mid to late October might be legal?)”

                No… Innings in October count for this year, you can’t make some arbitrary year cut-off just so you can get more innings out of a guy. You “click over to the next year” at the end of the season.

              • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

                It’s possible. But I think the team should look at two factors for the postseason question:

                1) How much increased risk of injury is involved here? Say if you put Hughes and Joba in the bullpen, they each throw an additional 10-15 innings in all of October. That’s not a lot, but they’d be deviating from their rhythm and throwing at odd intervals, warming up quickly for situational relieving, and throwing hard in cold October. All that increases the injury risk, maybe a little, maybe a lot. In terms of the “fiscal year” stuff, October is undoubtedly budgeted for the ’09 caps and not the ’10 caps. These innings count for this year.

                2) What’s the marginal utility upgrade? If the back end of the bullpen is Mo, Bruney, Marte, Aceves, Coke, Robertson, and Melancon, all those guys are proving to be very capable relief pitchers, and Joba and Hughes may not really present that much of an upgrade, an upgrade significant enough that you’d tempt fate by pushing them past their innings limits and having them break their routine and start throwing on shorter rest. And that’s not even mentioning the other potential bullpen options that may present themselves by September, like maybe Kontos, Kroenke, WLDR, Garcia, or a trade for an outside arm like Qualls, Street, or Valverde. I’ll agree that Joba and Hughes are better bullpen options than most other pitchers. I’m not sure that they’re so gigantically better that it’s worth the increased injury risk.

                • JP

                  You make alot of sense.

                • JP

                  I think it’s just a matter of not drinking the Francesa kool-aid and thinking you “must” have someone like Joba pitching in the playoffs this year.

                  The more I think about it, just having these two pitchers burn through their innings and be shut down for the season is fine. With roster expansion late in the season, they’ll get through September fine. With (hopefully) four healthy, effective starting pitchers for the playoffs (CC, AJ, AP, and CMP), the Yankees should be the favorite to beat anyone.

                • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

                  You make alot of sense.

                  THAT IS HOW YOU DEBATE!!!!!!!!

                  What happened? I blacked out.

                • MattG

                  Isn’t this where someone would typically write:

                  Joba >>>>>>>>>> Aceves
                  Hughes >>>>>>>>>>> Robertson

                  Over a 19 game stretch in the regular season, this is sound logic. In the post-season, it’s lunacy. The difference between a championship and none can be the thirteenth inning of game 2. I’ll have Hughes pitching for my team.

                • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

                  And you may very well end up having Hughes pitching on your team. His 180 cap means that unlike Joba, he may actually make it into September right around 180. And if that happens, I could certainly see the team say, “Fuck it, it’s only 15 more innings, let him go into October”.

                  But if they don’t, I’ll understand and agree with it.

            • http://mantisfists.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/julius-carry-aka-shonuff.jpg The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

              Ok… I agree with you, I don’t like the idea of messing around with spot starts or bullpen innings at all, and I want each of them shut down when they hit their respective innings-limits, but I have a thought… If Hughes, Joba and Wang are all performing well, is there any way the Yankees could shut one of them down at a time, for maybe a 2 or 3 weeks, during the summer? Maybe do this for a couple of weeks with Joba, then a couple of weeks with Hughes. I don’t want either of them surpassing their innings-limit nor do I want either of them in the ‘pen. Just trying to think of ways to keep them available to the Yankees later in the season without doing either of those things.

              The only reason I feel motivated to even think about these options is because I, like a lot of other fans I’m sure, don’t like the idea of just not having these guys available for the postseason. There’s got to be some interest in fielding the best team possible, and I want the Yankees to at least have the option of using their best weapons when the time comes. Who knows, maybe a playoff rotation of CC, AJ, Wang and Pettitte will be their best option, and Bruney and Melancon and others will be great out of the ‘pen, and this won’t even be an issue. But if Hughes and Joba present them with a better chance to win, it would be nice to figure out a way to have those weapons, at the very least, available.

              • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

                I don’t think this is a good idea either. Having Joba just sit on his ass in the clubhouse couch for a month midseason? No. He pitches.

                I would like to point out, though, that I had the harebrained idea back in the winter of delaying the start of Joba’s season. I said we should have had him sit on his ass in the clubhouse couch in February and March, start his spring schedule towards the start of April in EXST, and then join the big club starting rotation in May. That would have solved the problem.

                Oh well…

                • http://mantisfists.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/julius-carry-aka-shonuff.jpg The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

                  Yeah, I agree that it’s not ideal. I guess it depends on what the stronger interest is: Protecting the young arms at all costs, or having all weapons, at the very least, available, whether they’re chosen or not. Shutting them down during the season to keep their innings down a bit, either once or periodically for more than just one missed start here and there, at least (1) mitigates the health danger of irregular schedules and (2) gives the team options (a) in case one of them is either one of their best 3-4 pitchers going into the postseason or (b) in case one of the other starters gets injured and a replacement is needed. We haven’t really discussed the depth factor of this whole thing, and I think it has to be considered.

                  I don’t even know that I advocate this position, I just think it’s an option.

                • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

                  It is an option…

                  FOR ME TO POOP ON!!!!!

                • http://mantisfists.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/julius-carry-aka-shonuff.jpg The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

                  Well that settles it. lol

            • Joe R

              You dont think a long rest from being shut down would make him rusty starting in the playoffs?

        • MattG

          Why not? I know why you would think that, but what evidence can you provide? Take for example Wang starts today, and Pettitte gets to rest his back. Whom is that hurting?

          The reason it is not realistic is because neither Wang nor Pettitte can pitch the next 4 days, as one needs the rest from activity, the other needs rest for the coming start. That effectively puts the Yankees down a pitcher. With this staff, that is a small concern.

          I see no reason why Joba can’t toss 30-40 pitches in the bullpen (I meant this as a side session, but I suppose it could be in the game as well), instead of taking his start, and come back in 5 days fresh like daisy. Hell, you’ve got six guys, everyone should get an occasional week off.

          And what’s the risk? Not injury. Maybe they won’t pitch well. If so, you can abandon the idea. If the reward = an awesome pitcher for the post-season, and risk = a couple of bad starts, I say try it.

          • MattG

            So I read your other reply in which you say two things that interest me:

            1. You’re okay with a couple of skipped starts, but not 8
            2. You think the risk is they won’t develop as fully

            Point 1: I think a 5th starter is expected to make < 30 starts, if you keep your front four on schedule. It really shouldn’t take too much finagling to get Joba under 160 innings. What is the cap he needs to avoid, anyway?

            Point 2: I think you’re trading one type of development for another. Learning to go deep in games is a nice skill. I think he can work on that once the innings limitation is gone. He will gain invaluable experience pitching deep into October. What’s more, the whole idea of shutting him down when he reaches an innings limit seems to teach individual before team.

          • Mike HC

            For me, it really does not matter if Joba gets his 150 innings straight through, or they try to spread him out. Pitching 150 innings during the year is pitching 150 innings during the year no matter how you slice it. It win in June is the same as a win in September. Why mess with his rest time just to get him a start in August/September when they can keep him regular and get the innings in stride. The problem is what to do for the playoffs in my opinion, not really whether he can pitch later in the year as opposed to earlier in the year.

            • MattG

              TSJC’s plan requires Joba skip the post-season. I find that unacceptable…at least without trying to avoid it.

              • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

                Again, both Joba and Hughes pitching in the postseason is a LUXURY and not a necessity.

                1) Neither of them are going to be starters. That’s clear. Not only are they against innings caps, but the 4 man starting rotation is CC, AJ, Wang, and Pettitte. Barring injury, there’s no way Joba or Hughes cracks the rotation. None.

                2) Mo, Bruney, Marte, Coke, Aceves, D-Rob, and Melancon is more than enough of a quality bullpen.

                Frankly, WE DON’T NEED JOBA OR HUGHES ON THE POSTSEASON ROSTER. So, making a plan that leaves them off the postseason roster is perfectly acceptable.

                • MattG

                  I know they will be relievers, and I know the team is pretty good with that bullpen.

                  I also know that your shit doesn’t work in the playoffs. You better be ready to play your best. Do you not recall the lessons learned in past years? Do you want to choose between Jeff Weaver and nothing again? One extra inning game often turns a series. You don’t want to be going to Aceves/Robertson when you could be going to Joba/Hughes.

                • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

                  You don’t want to be going to Aceves/Robertson when you could be going to Joba/Hughes.

                  And, I also don’t want to turn Joba/Hughes into Wood/Prior.

                  I don’t like the idea of shutting them down and leaving them off the postseason roster. But I like the consequences of overtaxing them even less. So, I’m going to have faith in the other quality guys that we have, because we do have numerous other quality guys on our pitching staff who are capable of getting outs in big spots.

                • MattG

                  And, I also don’t want to turn Joba/Hughes into Wood/Prior.

                  That insinuates I would. I am not for flouting the innings limitations–I am for finding a way to spread the innings out over 7 months (and a day, if necessary!). I do not see credible evidence of unacceptable risk, or insurmountable logistics, or any other really solid reason to push forth and shut Joba down in August. That to me seems like a bad use of resources, derived from regimented thinking, or, as appears more the case, a misunderstanding of the magnification of marginal improvements in the post-season.

                • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

                  That insinuates I would.

                  No, it doesn’t. It insinuates that the increased injury risk is the downside in your plan that I feel you’re not giving enough weight to. I’m not calling you an idiot who would willfully expose our pitchers to undue injury risk. I’m just pointing out the other side of the coin. Please don’t turn my position into an attack on your intelligence, I never insinuated anything of the sort.

                  I am not for flouting the innings limitations–I am for finding a way to spread the innings out over 7 months (and a day, if necessary!).

                  I am too. I have yet to see a way to do that that is workable, IMO.

                  I do not see credible evidence of unacceptable risk, or insurmountable logistics, or any other really solid reason to push forth and shut Joba down in August.

                  Credible evidence of unacceptable risk: The litany of young pitchers who have been overtaxed and damaged their pitching arms.
                  Insurmountable logistics: The fact that Joba’s already made 10 starts, meaning he only has about 15 left, and that 15 starts every 5 days is 75 days, which would put his rough cutoff date at about 11 weeks from now (more or less). That’s August 19th. Show me a plan that gets Joba into October from August 19th, and I’ll consider it.

                  That to me seems like a bad use of resources, derived from regimented thinking

                  Regimented thinking is not necessarily a bad thing. Sometimes, it’s a very, very good thing. Regimented thinking is keeping an eye on the future and remaining appropriately disciplined now. Regimented thinking is what gave us Mark Teixeira and C.C. Sabathia without costing us any prospects.

                  or, as appears more the case, a misunderstanding of the magnification of marginal improvements in the post-season.

                  The theory that marginal differences between pitchers is somehow “magnified” in the postseason is just a theory, nothing more. You “guess” that Joba and Hughes will be much, much better than Bruney and Marte. It’s a guess. The empirical evidence doesn’t actually agree with you much. Guys tend to pitch in October just how they pitch in the regular season. So, just like we did a decade ago with Stanton and Nelson, I’ll take my chances with Bruney and Marte.

                • MattG

                  Well, this discussion is long over, but by magnified marginal improvements, I meant if Hughes allows one hit less than Aceves would, that might mean the difference between advancing and going home.

                  I did not mean that Hughes would become any better than Aceves just because its the post-season. I meant being better can be more important in a small, all-high-leverage, sample size.

    • ClayBuchholzLovesLaptops

      Wang would be “straightened out” pretty easily by watching a lot of the Hideki Matsui video collection.

      • http://www.riveraveblues.com Benjamin Kabak

        I was going to “sad trombone” this, but the site’s down.

        • ClayBuchholzLovesLaptops

          Oh, come on, Ben, that’s a quality joke!

  • bonestock94

    Maybe Wang comes in (hehe) when Joba hits his inning limit.

  • gxpanos

    Lotta Wang jokes in this thread. We should just start calling him Chien-Ming Penis, I think.

  • NJY

    I know this is late, just catching up on posts.

    Swish didnt start yesterday because he has history with Padilla I think. He charged the mound with him throwing. Girardi knows that we cannot afford to lose a OF to suspension so that is my theory.

    -Doug who hates Francessa

    • pat
    • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

      Okay, why the hell hasn’t Vicente Padilla been demonized yet? It seems like he intentionally throws at everybody, unprovoked, at every team he’s been on, and not only does the other team not like it, but his own teammates don’t like it.

      ARod is a “clubhouse cancer” but the media has nary a peep to say about Vicente Padilla? WTF?

      • ClayBuchholzLovesLaptops

        Because he is not the guy who is supposed to break the all-time homerun record the clean way?

      • JP

        That one’s easy: Envy.

        ARod is handsome, rich, well-spoken, and a bit fond of himself. Vicente Padilla is none of these, except rich, but of course he’s not seen as rich, really, in the rarefied air of baseball salaries.

        The cadre of sportswriters, on the other hand, come from that group of men and women who:

        a) still hold grudges against the girls that wouldn’t talk to them in high school.
        b) stunk at sports or loved them but weren’t good enough to succeed in them
        c) are overall small, ugly, and on the pudgy side.

        I swear I hate some of the stuff you hear/read from radio and media sports people.

        Mad Dog was all over Texiera on Sirius yesterday. Why? He’s a “phony” I guess, because he said Girardi was the best manager he’s ever had. “COME ON, YOU PLAYED FOR BOBBY COX, ONE OF THE WINNINGEST MANAGERS EVER, SCIOSCIA, COME ON, JOE GIRARDI?? WHAT A PHONY. You know, I hear he’s just really weird in the club house….”

        What a facking usshole Mad Dog is.

      • http://www.votepaulformayor.blogspot.com jsbrendog

        i think the “throw the ball over the plate” mouthing teix threw at the padilla flotilla makes me feel that padilla just doesnt know where the ball is going a la veras. Do you really try to hit a guy a second time to load the bases when he hasnt hit a hr off you or really done anything to warrant it yet?

        • JGS

          I think the first HBP had no intent behind it, but the second one sure did. Burnett had hit Elvis Andrus (on a breaking ball = no intent, but maybe Padilla didn’t know that) at that point

          • http://www.votepaulformayor.blogspot.com jsbrendog

            maybe padilla is just a dumbass. his old age has caught up with him. I don’t care how ol dhe says he is he looks like a spanish version of charlie hough in the mid 90s before he hung em up, like, 45.

            • ClayBuchholzLovesLaptops

              I also believe he is really dumb. But that is no excuse for throwing at people and he clearly did that on the second HBP. Players like that should be warned before the start of the game and tossed if they hit somebody. Maybe he’ll learn, maybe not.

              • http://www.votepaulformayor.blogspot.com jsbrendog

                he wont learn, he’s on his way out of the league. he’s had the career progression from touted prospcet with some success, to middle rotation guy, and now he’s a 5th starter with injury risk to eat some innings. he’ll be gone in 5 years at the absolute most

                • ClayBuchholzLovesLaptops

                  I’ll be glad when he is gone. But I also think the league should give longer suspensions to these guys.

    • LiveFromNewYork

      Teix’s post game interview was interesting. He said Padilla is known for throwing at people and when they were teammates he got drilled a lot because of Padilla. I thought he was pretty open and more forthcoming than most Yankee interviews. He clearly was upset at Padilla and tried to shrug it off in the beginning of the interview but after a few questions he just let loose on Padilla.

  • Reggie C.

    Wang wont get the back-to-back game repetitions like a true reliever, so essentially he’s gonna get the ball in emergency start situations or mop-up duties. Either way, these intermittent appearances are gonna afford Wang excuses if he can’t execute his pitches.

    There’s no real solution except for Wang pitching shut-out ball. Its not fair by a long shot, but would Cash and Joe G. really keep Hughes in the rotation if Wang has 10+ innings of 0 ER?

    • JP

      “There’s no real solution except for Wang pitching shut-out ball. Its not fair by a long shot, but would Cash and Joe G. really keep Hughes in the rotation if Wang has 10+ innings of 0 ER?”

      I think it depends on what Hughes and Joba do. If they start to suck (2 consecutive crappy starts, in my book), we stick Wang in, unless, of course, he starts sucking in the bullpen in the meantime.

      Andy Pettitte probably has a bit of clout and isn’t going to sit out a start unless he agrees to it, but I’m with the guy who wanted to see Andy rest his back and let Wang get a start.

      • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

        Andy Pettitte probably has a bit of clout and isn’t going to sit out a start unless he agrees to it, but I’m with the guy who wanted to see Andy rest his back and let Wang get a start.

        I’m good with that too.

  • rbizzler

    If Nady is unable to play the OF upon his return, the bench will have little versatility. X splits time at DH with ‘Zilla while Pena serves as the UTIL infielder. Gardner as the fourth OF while Molina or Frankie is the caddy for Jorge.

    With the lineup deep and stacked, I guess this is a non-issue, but it would be nice for X to be able log some innings in the field. But where does he play? Can he make the tough throws from RF? We know that we certainly can’t put Damon in right with his rag arm.

    • http://www.votepaulformayor.blogspot.com jsbrendog

      eh im not really worried about that because with 4 OF and 5 IF its a moot point unless someone gets injured.

      lets say they go back to 11 pitchers and you have 4 bench spots and hideki, your assumed everyday dh.

      so its :

      matsui
      nady
      gardner
      pena
      cervelli (assuming molina will not be back until after the ASB)

      so youve got your bat with pop off the bench, nady
      your IF replacement who can pinch run, pena
      your backup catcher, who until molina returns can pinch run, cervelli
      and your OF replacement who can pinch run and on a good day pinch hit

      i’m fine with that. think about it, on the old teams that won world series there was the everyday dh (chili davis, ruben sierra) and then a guy with pop off the bench who couldnt really play the field (strawberry, canseco). the onoy way i see this being an issue is if someone gets injured. if an OF goes down and nady cant throw then Im comfortable bringin up shelly to be the 4th of and sliding gardner into the lineup on a daily basis.

    • Chris

      I was poking through stats, and we can send out a lineup where Melky is the worst hitter. Melky’s .830 OPS is higher than any team OPS in baseball. It’s always nice to have flexibility, but with a lineup like that, there’s really no pressing need for pinch hitters.

  • Coach6423

    It’s pretty safe to say at this point that they completely fudged Wang, going all the way back to this winter.

  • Mike HC

    The way I see it, there is a possibility that Joba won’t be able to pitch in the playoffs, at least as a starter, for the next three years. He gets to his supposed 150 inning this year, the Yanks shut him down. Then next year, he gets to his supposed 180 inning next year in the regular season, and the Yanks shut him down. Then the year after, he pitches like the Ace we all think he will be, gets to 210 innings by the end of the year, and what, the Yanks have to shut him down for the playoffs.

    I’m pretty sure that this cannot be the actually strategy. Something has to give here. I just don’t know what it will be.

    • http://www.votepaulformayor.blogspot.com jsbrendog

      well its under 25, the verducci rule isnt it? and isnt joba 23 or so? so in his 24 age season his cap is 180, then in his 25 age season it wouldnt be a stretch to just let him go would it?

    • http://theyankeeuniverse.com Moshe Mandel

      Totally agree. I’m not sure what the plan should be, but if anyone here actually thinks that the Yankees plan on shutting down Joba and Hughes and not having them available in any capacity during the postseason, you are crazy. There is just no way that is going to happen.

      • JP

        How do you think they’ll use them, then?

        • http://theyankeeuniverse.com Moshe Mandel

          I do not know. But I know two things: They have a plan, and that plan almost certainly does not include not having two of their best pitchers unavailable come playoff time. Joba is currently on pace for 159 innings according to ESPN. If his limit is between 150-160, say 155, you can skip a start right before the all star break, one right after the break, one in August, and one in September, and he should be fine for the playoffs. Same with Hughes.

          • JP

            Then we’re back with the TSJC argument about not “jerking them around” with spot starts, pitching every third start on 9 days rest, etc.

            It’s too complicated. For me anyway.

            • http://theyankeeuniverse.com Moshe Mandel

              Skipping him once a month should not be a huge deal. I doubt that it has a major impact on his development.

              • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

                Skipping Joba once a month from here on out still doesn’t keep him from getting shut down before the playoffs start. If you skip Joba once in June, once in July, and once in August all you’re doing is moving his shutdown date from mid-late August to late-August-early September.

                • http://theyankeeuniverse.com Moshe Mandel

                  He’s currently on pace for 159 innings. As I said above, skipping four starts (one per month) should put him at about 135 entering the postseason. At worst, he can be used out of the pen at that point. Of course, he could start throwing 7 innings a start from here on out, which may complicate matters and require more skipping.

                • http://theyankeeuniverse.com Moshe Mandel

                  He’s currently on pace for 159 innings. As I said above, skipping four starts (one per month) should put him at about 135 entering the postseason. At worst, he can be used out of the pen at that point. Of course, he could start throwing 7 innings a start from here on out, which may complicate matters and require more skipping.

        • http://www.riveraveblues.com Benjamin Kabak

          Who knows? But I’m inclined to agree with Moshe. The Yanks will find a way.

        • Mike HC

          Is it possible that we might see Joba getting pulled after 80 pitches or so, just to save an inning or two per start. With Wang needing work, and Joba needing less work, maybe the plan will be pull Joba after 4th or 5th inning and let Wang pitch three innings. Not sure if this is a good idea, but it is a way to limit Joba’s innings and get Wang work.

      • Nady Nation

        +1. I just can’t fathom Joba, arguably our 2nd best starter, not being available at all for the playoffs. The Yanks gotta get creative.

      • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

        if anyone here actually thinks that the Yankees plan on shutting down Joba and Hughes and not having them available in any capacity during the postseason, you are crazy. There is just no way that is going to happen.

        Like my grandpappy always said, the less a man makes declarative statements, the less apt he is to look foolish in retrospect.

        • http://theyankeeuniverse.com Moshe Mandel

          You disagree? I am not usually one for declarative statements, but this is one case where I just find that notion ridiculous.

  • V

    I honestly would like to see a 6 man rotation.

    CC and AJ on regular rest, no matter what.

    Wang and Pettitte on regular rest as often as possible.

    Joba and Hughes pushed back or skipped as necessary to accomodate CC/AJ/Wang/Pettitte.

    Now, I don’t want Joba and Hughes skipped often, but I’ll have to look at a calendar to see how things work out.

    • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

      Statement #1: I honestly would like to see a 6 man rotation.

      Statement #2: CC and AJ on regular rest, no matter what.

      These two statements are incompatible. There’s no feasible way I’ve ever seen of having a 6 man rotation where two of the six men are on 5-man rotation rest. The other 4 men in the rotation will constantly have their starts pushed up or back and constantly be out of rhythm. It’s unworkable.

      • V

        I’ll play around with it ;-)

        I have a spreadsheet with the schedule this season. The Angels game was rescheduled for September 14th, and I’m assuming a double header vs. the As on July 26th.

        The All Star Break allows the team to reset the rotation with Sabathia/Wang/Burnett/Pettitte/Chamberlain/Hughes.

        I’ll play around with it and see if I can make it work.

        • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

          Please do.

          If someone can show me an actual workable plan, I’ll get on board.

  • gxpanos

    What about the simplest solution: Hughes to AAA if Wang shows he can throw two good games in a row.

    I know, I know, it sucks. But he’s only 22 and it’s such a damn waste that the Peniser is just hanging out in the bullpen. Plus, if Andy’s back starts barking, Philly will get a couple starts. It just makes the most sense; it’s optimal. Joba hits innings limit while helping the Yanks as their, probably, even with Wang in the rotation, 2nd best starter; a 19-game winner doesnt rot in the BP; and Hughes pitching every five days and hitting his cap, working on the cutter (and a change, hopefully!)

    This is all contingent on Chien-Ming Penis being good again, of course.

    • http://www.votepaulformayor.blogspot.com jsbrendog

      im not one to squelch meme’s, but i think chien-ming penis is kinda dumb. but i will not say anything further on the subject nor berate anyone who doesnt. just stating my opinion and that i won’t participate in this one. plus while the beavis and butthead heh heh eheh factor has worn off for penis, i feel it still has a grace period with wang. hehe hehe wang…hah

      • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

        +1.

        Wang is funny. Penis seems too deliberate, IMO.

        • gxpanos

          That’s kind of the joke.

          • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside
            • gxpanos

              Why?

              • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

                Here’s an analogy:

                I enjoy the creativity and subtle humor of the censored version of The Yin Yang Twins’ “Wait (The Whisper Song)”. It loses it’s playful charm and subtle humor when you uncensor it.

                “Wait till you see my OH!” is funny.

                “Wait till you see my dick, hey bitch” is not.

                • gxpanos

                  Thanks for the analogy, I didnt know what you meant a few comments up when you were like “it’s too deliberate.” The “why” was in reference to the fact that you used the (lame) bombed-joke/instantcrickets meme to reply to a comment that wasnt a joke. “That’s kind of the joke” isnt a joke. More like a flustered “why would you do that?” than a request for an explanation.

                  All that notwithstanding, let’s deconstruct the joke, remembering full well that it will necessarily be unfunny after I’ve done so. People in this thread keep doing the “Slide Wang in and out…hehe” joke. The humor in this, I would argue, springs from the sly knowledge of the audience that the joke is infantile, and kind of stupid as a joke in itself. In other words, it’s funny to act like it’s funny, because it’s a 4th grade joke.

                  That’s all well and good; I’m on board. Moderately funny stuff. However, like every joke in the history of jokes, unless it’s reinvented, it must stop being funny after some amount of use; and, if the joke isnt reinvented, it should, properly, die. This was my feeling with the “Wang…hehe” jokes. Moderately funny, then no longer funny since commenters made liberal use of it.

                  “Chien-Ming Penis” was an attempt at reinvention. It’s not funny on it’s face, just as “Wang…hehe” isnt funny on its face. So, what we effectively could have done, is build on top of the collective knowledge that a) “Wang…hehe” is funny as a nod to 4th grade jokes; and b) Chien-Ming Penis is a FURTHER deconstruction of the thing that make “Wang…hehe” funny to 4th graders. I.e., if we find it funny that 4th graders find it funny that someone’s name is Wang (which as I said is why I think we find “Wang…hehe” funny), then I think a valid reinvention of the joke is to make it even LESS subtle, as the comedy sprang from the lack of subtlety in the first place. This kind of reinvention isnt very rare. Almost 100% of Michael Scott’s “unintentional” comedy comes from this principle (not that The Office is brilliantly funny or anything, just pretty funny (like the CMP joke was supposed to be)).

                  Does that make sense?

                  Furthermore, if you think “Wang…hehe” is funny because it’s subtle, and “Chien Ming Penis” is unfunny due to a lack of subtlety, we have different senses of humors (which is pretty clear anyway, I guess). To me, neither is subtle, and, like I said, I find the humor in both jokes’ distinct lack of subtlety.

                  Also: subtle…and TSJC. Do those two entities really go together? Not knocking you, just saying you should think about your own sense of humor before invoking the “lack of subtlety” card. As I’ve said, I find things that lack subtlety funny. As a result, I think you’re funny sometimes.

                  Excuse the length of this post. In it is actually my general critique of what is found funny by the vast majority of the people who visit this wonderful, God-sent Yankee site.

                • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

                  I have only once response to all that:

                  Chien-Ming Penis.

                  OH SNAP I CREATED A LOGIC VORTEX!?!??!?!?!?!?

                • JP

                  That post is a masterpiece. I needed three readings to fully take it all in. (sorry).

                  I agree with you, though…the Wang jokes are not really subtle, we’re laughing at the absurdity that a 4th grade “wang” joke would appeal to a bunch of young and middle aged men. Throwing the blatant “penis” out there just, uh, extends it, as the author suggests.

  • http://www.votepaulformayor.blogspot.com jsbrendog

    only if we wear jesus wigs and grow jesus beards and wear white robes.