Cashman draws obvious parallel between Halladay and Santana
ByOver the next 12 days we’re going to hear plenty more about Roy Halladay. Whether or not the Blue Jays actually intend to trade their 32-year-old ace, the media will continue to speculate. And why not? It makes for a good deadline storyline. Brian Cashman wants to put a damper on that. Not only has he implied that the Yankees will not empty the farm for Halladay, but he also pointed out the meaninglessness of the trade deadline this year.
To those clamoring for Halladay, Cashman refers back to the Johan Santana situation:
“I’m very comfortable with the decision we made back with the Santana situation,” he said. “Right now, we’ve got Sabathia where the Santana money is, I’ve got a center fielder in Melky, I’ve got Phil Hughes performing for us, and I’ve got Swisher in right, which Jeffrey Marquez was in the deal to help me get.
“So right now, I believe the organization is in a better position because of that type of decision-making. I know people still like to debate it. Debate all they want, I think it was the smart and right move, and we’re stronger than we would have been with one player and the money attached to the player without all the extra players we have now.”
Yes, the Yankees have Sabathia with the Santana money, but remember that Sabathia was no guarantee. The Yankees had to see him actually hit free agency (as they didn’t see with Santana), and then had to convince him to come to New York. While it’s hard to see someone turning down $161 million, two legendary pitchers have in the past. The gamble paid off for the Yankees. But if the economic conditions were different, would it have been as easy to get CC to accept money over geographic preference?
Still, the plan did work. They had an idea of what they wanted to do, and it succeeded. They’ve gotten production out of Melky and Hughes this year, and turned Marquez into Swisher. The presence of those players has helped the Yankees get to where they are today, which is a strong position in baseball’s toughest division.
Some say that the Yankees are in a different place right now, and that the new circumstances call for the Yankees to pursue Halladay. Adding him, so goes the reasoning, gives the Yanks an unmatched top of the rotation. That’s certainly true, but in baseball there are no guarantees. Even a rotation headed by Sabathia, Halladay, and Burnett wouldn’t guarantee the Yankees a World Series. It sure would help, but transactions like this come with no promises.
There’s obviously room for debate on this issue, but it’s pretty clear where the Yankees come down. They could just be setting a smoke screen, as they did when addressing the question of signing both Teixeira and Sabathia. Given the way Cashman has behaved with his prospects to this point, it’s a bit difficult to call his bluff in this case.
As to the trade deadline, Cashman says that it doesn’t matter as much this year because teams won’t be so quick to put in claims. He mentions that in 2000, he and Mets’ GM Steve Phillips would put in claims to block competitors from trading for a player. With many teams looking to shed payroll, they could well let certain players, and their salaries, go if another team claims them. Therefore, there could be a bit more activity in August than we’ve seen in previous years.
It could be a rather uninteresting deadline for the Yankees. They’ll continue to evaluate the back end of their rotation, knowing they could possibly swing a trade later on. As far as Halladay goes, though, even if J.P. Ricciardi were willing to trade him within the division, it doesn’t appear the Yankees are takers right now.
I don’t see Cash trading Montero or Phil or Joba to get Hallday. They are the crown jewels of his farm system movement he started in 2005.
Yanks may take a stab at a half-decent reliever or 5th starter. No dice on Doc. And it’s the right move quite frankly.
I still feel the smart move is to add a reliever instead of a back end starter. But that’s because I’m willing to move Hughes to the rotation, and apparently the team is not. So I’m spitting into the wind.
+1
I hope marte is that guy though.
I’m still interested in Arthur Rhodes as a cheap-buy option. He’s death to lefties. They’re hitting .122/.200/.143 against him.
Righties aren’t that much better, either: .203/.309/.356.
arthur rhodes = black jesse orosco
he’ll just keep going and going and going and going. i thought he was out of baseball a couple yrs ago and all of a sudden he’s in seattle.
Wow, I hadnt thought of Rhodes. Cash could probably get him for a song. Very interesting. How do those stats look in the AL East though, as opposed to the NL central? Plus, will General Joe be afraid to pitch him against righties, thus barring him from effectively and efficiently using the Coke/Rhodes combo?
Rhodes is VERY interesting, my couple worries notwithstanding.
NAY on Arthur Rhodes. I’ve seen too many cases of this guy folding in big spots. He has rarely (if ever) recorded a big out…not with Baltimore, not with Seattle, not with Philly.
I always thought the same thing, but that might be his career 7.46 ERA against the Yankees (his worst showing against any team, and it’s not close) preventing me from ever seeing him as a decent arm
Arthur Rhodes, 1991-2004: 4.36 ERA, 1.329 WHIP
Arthur Rhodes, 2005-2009: 2.95 ERA, 1.272 WHIP
He’s getting better with age, like a fine Pinot Noir.
I wonder if his UCL had been fraying for years. In his first 16 years in the majors, he had an ERA under 2.05 only once – in 2001. In his last 2 seasons (after TJ surgery) he has ERAs of 2.04 and 1.72.
How come people never compare black players to white wines?
White wines tend to not get better with age. So there.
(Yes, though, I did enjoy the humorous juxtaposition there of my comment right underneath jsb calling Rhodes the “black Jesse Orosco”. Well played, Andy.)
I broke new ground with my cross racial comparison sans stereotype (well, other than age)
doesn’t the fact that he’s a black man named arthur rhodes break enough racial barriers for one man? i mean come on…
I understand the numbers look good for Rhodes, but I wouldn’t let him buy a ticket for a Yankee Stadium tour, let alone let him actually don the pinstripes.
I believe in letting the numbers lead the way almost as much as you do, tsjc. But there are lines I won’t cross. Rhodes is one of those lines. The Yanks have beaten him in every key confrontation. They guy melts under pressure. His post-season WHIP is 1.529. Here are his numbers v. the Yanks in the 2000 ALCS:
4 games, 2 IP, 8 hits, 7 ER, 4 BB, 5 K (a 6.0 WHIP and 31.50 ERA). Yes, I know, I honed in on his one hugely bad series, but still … it’s Arthur Rhodes!
I would rather see Mike Dunn and his 5.78 BB per 9 IP ratio and 2 AAA innings rather than Arthur Rhodes. Hell, I’d rather see you in there in a big spot rather than Arthur Rhodes. Are you a lefty?
SSS
I admitted to that, but … nope. Not buying it. No Arthur Rhodes in the Bronx. Not now, not ever. Well, yes, he can come back on Old Timer’s Day after he retires so that the 1996-2000 championship teams can abuse him again.
I think there is something to the fact that the fans will get on him real bad as soon as he blows a game (which happens to every reliever). It’s certainly not right, but you know it will happen.
Also, I can’t see Cashman acquiring him for that exact reason. He’s already spoken about how they passed on Albert Belle because they thought he couldn’t handle the pressure of playing in New York, and I assume they would have the same view of Arthur Rhodes.
well, he has all of 17 postseason innings and most of those ugly numbers come from (as you point out) getting blitzed in the 2000 ALCS.
I think the worst thing about his postseason stats is the 10 walks in 17 innings
Acquiring a back-end starter would just be a waste. Maybe they catch lightning in a bottle with the trade, but it’s just as likely to completely blow up (see Loaiza, Esteban). If you’re going to get a starter, then get a good one.
Getting a reliever wouldn’t cost much and could help shore up the pen for the second half. Of course, those can blow up just as easily (just ask Boston aboot Gagne)
Agreed on all counts. I’m just pissed that the Astros are doing their annual July charge back into the playoff picture, and thus, Jose Valverde is not available.
Arthur Rhodes, David Weathers, Danys Baez, George Sherrill, Rafael Betancourt, Matt Capps, John Grabow, Chad Qualls, Michael Wuertz, Brad Ziegler, Craig Breslow…
Arthur Rhodes??
Seriously? I guess someone hasnt watched a Yankee game when he pitched the past decade.
Yes, because it makes sense to evaluate a relief pitcher based on the couple of games a season that he has thrown against our own team rather than on his body of work as a whole.
Racist!
::golf clap::
He left out “elitist.”
While that would have been nice, I think the pithy nature of the one-word comeback really gives it that extra punch.
Oh yeah? If you want to discuss this further, just let me know when you’ll be at the Stadium and we can have a little chat, mano a mano, you racist AND elitist pig.
Johnny Damon’s career line against the Yankees – .275/.338/.392
That’s pretty pedestrian. Should we not have acquired him, since he played poorly against us in small sample sizes?
I cry BS, tsjc!
Damon may not have been great, but he never epicly failed in the way Rhodes has agains the Yanks. In fact, Damon’s HR in Game 7 in 2004 put the nail in the Yanks’ coffin.
There is a small list of players who have been out-and-out abused by the Yanks in high-profile situations. It’s a small group. Damon is not one of those guys. Rhodes most certainly is.
2 HR’s in game 7 atually.
I take no sides, just pointing that out.
Well if the Yankees trade for him they can guarantee he doesn’t pitch against them.
I think the Yankee’s are being coy with their plans for Hughes the rest of the year. They don’t want to seem desperate or show obvious holes on their major league roster. Their plan may very well be to add a reliever and put Hughes back into the rotation for the end of the year. Publically telling people that Hughes will be back in the rotation by the end of the year gives other teams a bit of leverage in trade talks for a reliever. Don’t lose hope quite yet Upside.
Cashman sounds really mellow on the whole thing. Maybe he’s waiting to see what packages Philly, Milwaukee, or even LA put together before jumping into the fray. Still, i’d be shocked to see Cash change course and offer Joba or Hughes if the Red Sox aren’t really involved in the process.
I’d be really interested to see what the Dodgers put together. Could they pull it off without parting with Billingsley or Kershaw?
I’m not calling a bluff, but after what happened this offseason, specifically with Texeira, these comments mean nothing at all to me.
Why would he ever say “i will trade for him”?? What GM tells the honest truth? He wouldnt be doing his job if he did
I just can’t see Ricciardi making this move without demanding a king’s ransom from the Yankees (and I mean more of a ransom than he would demand from other teams) simply because it’s within the division. I know that this gets mentioned, but I don’t feel that enough people consider that factor to be as important as (I think) it is.
Some have already said that this trade (or non-trade) will define Ricciardi’s legacy. If that’s true, and J.P. sends Halladay here, or to Boston for that matter, the decision will stare him in the face (and ownership’s face…the face that signs his checks) over and over again for as long as he’s GM. I would think the price to trade within the division would be absolutely astronomical, and it’s the main reason I don’t even consider the Yanks a real player in this deal.
I dont want to mortgage the farm. And I hope the Phillies step up. I want him out of not only the ALE, but the AL.
do you guys think the package would have to be the same to get cliff lee? Would we have to part with one of hughes, joba, jesus?
Lee is worth less than Halladay, but he’s signed for less money over the same time period, and Cleveland’s odds of competing in 2010 are much better than Toronto’s. So Cleveland is probably only moving him if they get a Halladay level package.
I don’t believe anything that Cashaman says especially after this winter. He swore up and down that there was no way the Yankees would sign the three top free agents what happen CC, AJ and Tex are in pinstripes.
The price is going to come down on Doc if J.P. Ricciardi is smart and takes a look at what happen with Twins and Santana he will realize that the time to trade Doc is now to get max value.
The difference between Santana and the Halladay situation is clear with Santana the Yankees still need more pieces to the puzzle. Halladay is the only piece they really need it clearly puts them over the top.
They’re no guarantee in baseball, but i will take my chance with CC, AJ and Doc going to the playoffs.
I agree here in terms of pieces of the puzzle. Adding Santana would have given the Yanks a very solid club at the time, but he alone (based on what they’d lose) didn’t make the team the easy favorite.
Adding Halladay to this team, even with subtracting one of Joba/Hughes, easily makes the 2009 Yankees the team to beat.
That being said, I’ve gone back and forth on what I’d be willing to lose for Doc. If it’s 1 of Joba/Hughes/Montero I think I’m okay with it. If it’s 2 out of 3, not so much.
I’m fine with this team the way it is, but having Doc to lead the rotation into the playoffs would certainly be nice.
As much as Halladay would make this rotation top of the line it won’t happen. Cashman doesn’t make these moves. Look at his record. Just won’t happen.
Frankly, to me, Halladay/CC/AJ doesn’t look SO much better than CC/AJ/JobaHughes that I am willing to trade Hughes and Montero to get him, and then spend Macallister on a bullpen arm to replace Hughes in the pen.
I disagree. CC/A.J./one of Joba or Hughes looks unbelivable. But I would not trade Montero.
I think you misread. I think we agree.
I’m just so giddy right now with the way Hughes has pitched and remembering how good Joba was at this point last year that I don’t think we need to give up Montero, Ajax, Hughes/Joba, Romine or whatever it would take. Cashman has begun to build a solid farm system for the first time since I have been following them and I would like to see that continue.
I agree w/ TSJC, let Marte be that guy or add someone like Rhodes and put Hughes back in the rotation, I’ll take my chances with a CC, AJ, Petitte, Joba, Hughes rotation.
I’m sorta meh on the situation. I trust Cashman to not get screwed on a trade. I honestly think it could be done with one of Hughes/Joba one of Ajax/Montero and a guy like Zmac. I could probably stomach watching those guys grow up and become solid players in Toronto if we have Doc rockin out at the top of our rotation. The thing that would REALLY piss me off is if Toronto pulls a Bill Smith and trades him to the Dodgers or Sox and doesn’t get a guy like Kershaw or Lester in return. That would really grind my gears.
There is no way that the Dodgers trade Kershaw, and NO WAY that the Red Sox trade Lester. Both of these guys, I’m sure, are viewed by their organizations as Roy Halladay starters, as they should be. If the Red Sox trade for Halladay, I’m sure it will involve Buchholz, Bard and some other players.
Ugh, if he goes for clay buchholz and dan bard I’ll be so GD angry. That’s what I’m afraid of.
We’d just have to make due if that happens. Theo’s going to pay Josh Beckett pretty soon right? Can he do that with Halladay on the team as well? Furthermore, how does Theo add a very good bat to the lineup if he’s paying three $100 million pitchers?
Theo convinces guys to take less money “for love of the game”. You’re right though, it would hamstring them payroll wise. Plus you know the dbag beckett will demand just as much if not more money than halladay. Still though, that makes them very very formidable.
The “Gammons Hype Machine” has been in full effect all year. Between the “Penny for a Smoak-type Bat”, “Bucholz Domination”, “Bard Invincibility”, “Masterson the next great NL Closer” or the recent “Casey Kelly is not Good but Great”. The GHM is working overtime.
That’s why he’s a Hall of Famer*, after all.
Gammons is to the Red Sox
as
Flava Flav is to Public Enemy
except with more drool.
And fewer clocks.
i don’t think Cashman is going to trade either Joba or Hughes. I’m not saying it is a good or bad idea to hold them, but I think Cashman believes it is better to keep them. If anything, trading Hughes/Joba/AJax/Montero within the division would be a harder pill to swallow for the Yanks than for Toronto trading Halladay. Everyone knows Halladay will produce like a top pitcher, so it won’t be so devastating when he does what is expected. But those previously mentioned Yank prospects are more unknowns. If they become Cy Young/MVP candidates, it will be far more soul crushing for Yankee fans. Cashman should demand an extra price from Toronto for trading within the division.
If anything, trading Hughes/Joba/AJax/Montero within the division would be a harder pill to swallow for the Yanks than for Toronto trading Halladay.
Especially since the Blue Jays would get the added benefit of not only having multiple good players to make their young team better, but would get them at a huge financial bargain enabling them to go spend more money elsewhere.
Frankly, I think Cashman is more worried about the dangers of trading valuable and cheap prospects to a division rival than Riccardi is worried about trading the best pitcher in the game to a division rival. The chances of this deal blowing up in Cashman’s face is bigger than it was with Santana, because if the pieces you trade away pan out and become legit big leaguers, you’ve just made a chief division rival WAY stronger.
Exactly. It is all about expectations. Halladay would be expected to pitch as the best pitcher in baseball. If he does that, then well, it is not devastating for Toronto because they knew he would pitch like that. For Yanks fans, trading one of our top prospects would probably mean we don’t think they will turn into the top players in the game. Thus, if they did exceed expectations, it would be a far bigger blow to Yankee fans. The Yanks or Sox should be the teams asking for more from the Jays, if any team should be asking for more.
Can this statement FINALLY put to rest the idiotic notion that, somehow, Santana cold have been got for Kennedy, Melky, Marquez and like…Lassiter?
I am so tired of hearing that Cash turned down the notion of a package centered on Kennedy. That just isn’t true.
but but but……ipk/melky can get anyone can’t they?
of course they can. Didn’t you hear that we already have that offer in for Pujols?
St. Louis wanted to throw in Rasmus, but Cashmoney didn’t want to block Shelley’s path to NY.
Yeah, going off Brian Cashman’s Spring Training interview with WFAN in 2008 and articles from the 2007-2008 off-season and this article, the two packages that were legitimately on the table were: 1) Phil Hughes, Melky Cabrera, Jeffery Marquez and a prospect or 2) Chien-Ming Wang, Ian Kennedy, Melky Cabrera and a “low-level” prospect.
If Cash could have gotten Santana for Shelley Duncan, Juan Miranda, Jeff Karstens and a ball of lint, then I’m guessing he would have made the deal. It’s probably the same thing with Halladay.
If the Twins called Cashman and asked for a package headlined by Kennedy, there would’ve been a signed trade contract coming out of their fax machine before they even finished the sentence.
I know a lot of people are saying the Jays should be reluctant to trade within their division, but that just doesn’t make sense to me. When the Jays make the decision to trade Halladay, they are basically giving up on 2009 and 2010 with the goal of focusing on 2011 and beyond. Trading within the division helps that goal.
Assuming the packages are the same, the Jays would be in the same position no matter where they traded Halladay. If they traded within the AL East, then they’d be weakening the farm system of which ever team they traded with. Losing those prospects would likely weaken one team they’re competing against in 2011 and beyond – the time that the Jays want to contend.
The desire not to trade within their division seems to be completely based on the emotional desire of not wanting to watch Halladay beat your team a few times a year for the next 2 years. That’s a stupid reason to make or not make a trade.
that last paragraph basically hits the nail on the head. It’s boneheaded management to not trade a guy in your division when the absolute best package for said player comes from a team within the division. You manage your team and get the most you can. I don’t understand how someone could justify taking an inferior package just b/c the far and away best package of players was coming from an opponent within the division.
It’s the “far and away” bit that’s the key.
If the Yankees offer Hughes AND Joba, Romine and Jackson, while the next best offer is Drabek, another top-prospect, and two more solid prospects…the Yanks offer is far and away the best, and they get him.
If the Yanks package is better than the Phils, but only a little…the PR hit of having Halladay thrown in your face ten times over the next year and a half sways ownership (and thus GMs)
the PR hit of having Halladay thrown in your face ten times over the next year and a half sways ownership (and thus GMs)
Using PR as a guide to making deals is a recipe for failure.
Agree.
I agree. But gms do it.
They want to keep their jobs. I understand the idea that a GM shouldn’t limit himself in terms of what teams to deal with, but with “mainstream media” the way it is, and the scrutiny placed on these moves, an in-division trade that backfires is more likely to cost you your job, whether it’s fair or not.
I highly doubt the Yanks would have to include both Hughes and JOba in the same package to exceed in quality that which Philly could put together.
Cash would gladly see Halladay go to the NL East and become the Mets’ problem. So long as Boston doesn’t come swooping in with a Buchholz/ Bard/ Anderson offer, i think Cash will be content to sit this one out.
I might agree if we weren’t talking about the Yankees and Red Sox. Anything Toronto takes from their systems is going to be purchased on the open market, and Halladay makes it that much harder for them to even think about making the playoffs. Let’s say Halladay goes to NY… between Tampa, Boston, and NYY, what’s the point of Toronto even fielding a team for the next 5 years?
Who would have thought that Tampa would have ever been included in that sentence two years ago. You never know what is going to happen, and if Toronto manages to get a legit package of players for Halladay, they would be on their way. It does not seem like teams are willing to hand over their top two prospects/top young major leaguers, for him though. Toronto will either have to settle, or hope a team caves in. An injury to one of Boston, Yanks or Phillies top starters would help Toronto in that area.
Who would have imagined Tampa would be good now? I dunno, anyone paying any attention to the boatload of studs they had in their system?
Right. Anyone paying attention predicted Tampa would represent the AL last year in the World Series and be on par with the best teams in the AL. I must have missed all those predictions
Actually, all the projection systems like pecota had them contending last year.
Yeah, 90 games and 3rd place (yes I know we were at 89 but we weren’t supposed to be).
97 games and the pennant? Get back to us in three years or so.
If I remember correctly, it had them being competitive, it did not predict them to be better, or even as good as the Sox or Yankees. Predicting that Tampa was going to field a competitive team is not predicting they would be legit contenders against the Yanks and Sox.
Toronto is fielding a competitive team this year. That was the type of “competitive team” they were supposed to field, not the best team in the AL.
Either way, the point is being lost here. If you can even call it a point. Tampa was the ultimate underdog franchise. So if they can compete with the Yanks and Sox, so can Toronto if they make the right moves. I would not just write them off for the next 5 years.
No, Tony’s point was that anybody who looked at Tampa’s minor league system could tell that they were going to be as good as they are now.
Which is not true.
You thought Tampa would win 97 games and the pennant last season.
Golf clap.
“and the pennant last season*?*
Tampa is over-rated. Yes, they have Longoria and some other good young position players. Last year, they had career type years out of 3 or 4 starting pitchers; they have 5 starting pitchers basically stay healthy all year. They lost Percival, but had tremendous success with bullpen arms that were largely unknown prior to that season.
This year is more of what you would expect from them. Competitive, but not class-of-the-league. They are another version of the Twins and the A’s of a few seasons back.
Actually, there was an article on RAb a few days ago that was talking about how ridiculously unlucky Tampa Bay was in the first half and how we should expect them to play much better.
The article was not really saying that they were going to play better. Who knows, their luck may be even worse in the second half.
Well, of course they may still not play to their potential. But we shouldn’t expect them to stay this (relatively) bad.
The Twins and A’s never reached the World Series. Did they even win one playoff series? I don’t think so. If they are another version of those teams, they are a better version.
My amusement?
I can understand the fear of trading to the Red Sox. They’re a big money team without much in the way of long term commitments, and they’re capable of spending a lot more on payroll than they are now. It’s scary to improve that team.
But trading to the Yankees or Rays could very well help Toronto. The Yankees have a lot of big money contracts, which drastically limits flexibility. Having a big money player get a serious injury could leave the team in a horrible position. Imagine trading Hughes or Joba + more for Halladay, then one of CC / AJ / Doc blows out their elbow? That cripples the team. The Rays would be betting a large portion of their payroll on one player, which could force them to trade away arbitration eligible players they otherwise would’ve kept.
AJ blowing out his elbow would cripple the Yankees, just like how the Pavano and Wright implosions helped the Jays to their first pl… wait.
You aren’t getting anywhere by betting that you can bankrupt the Yankees.
You aren’t getting anywhere by betting that you can bankrupt the Yankees.
Yes, that would be silly. It’s probably why Toronto would be demanding good players in a trade.
I’ve never been a fan of making decisions based on trying to block your rival from getting a player. You can’t pee in your own canteen…if he isn’t right for the Yankees, he isn’t right for the Yankees. If Boston wants to get him, you have to accept that. I don’t hear a unanimous voice proclaiming that Halladay guarantees an AL pennant for the Yankees, so we shouldn’t assume (and despair) that, if he did go to Boston, they would have it locked down.
You’re right, but, what does that have to do with whether Toronto should trade within the division?
Let’s say Halladay goes to NY… between Tampa, Boston, and NYY, what’s the point of Toronto even fielding a team for the next 5 years?
Because if the Jays can get, say, Hughes, Montero, and McAllister for Halladay, in maybe two years they can have this team:
C: J.P. Arenciba
1B: Jesus Montero
2B: Aaron Hill
3B:
SS:
LF: Travis Snider
CF: Vernon Wells
RF: Alex Rios
DH: Adam Lind
SP: Phil Hughes
SP: Ricky Romero
SP: Brett Cecil
SP: Rob Ray
SP: Shaun Marcum
SP: Dustin McGowan
SP: Jesse Litsch
SP: Marc Rzepczynski
SP: Zach McAllister
That lineup is good and deep, and they have enough dynamite young pitching depth to rival anything the rest of the AL East has, including Boston, Baltimore, and even Tampa Bay. The bullpen is still solid with League, Accardo, Camp, Downs, Frasor, etc., and by clearing Halladay’s salary obligations, along with B.J. Ryan, Scott Rolen, and Lyle Overbay, who all come off the books after 2010, they can afford to spend money in a year or so, maybe on a shiny new FA shortstop or third baseman (Jack Wilson? Jose Reyes? Brandon Inge? Chone Figgins?)
They can compete even without Halladay. There’s talent there.
IF Riccardi somehow lands both Montero and Hughes, then he’ll probably figure a way to send Vernon Wells our way with Cashman paying for the plane ticket.
Seriously though, that Toronto lineup has upside.
Seriously though, that Toronto lineup has upside.
Ridiculous upside.
Toronto getting Jesus Montero would probably haunt us like the Orioles getting Adam Jones. You hate to see a rival snag a legit middle of the order bat just entering his prime.
And Adam Lind, Aaron Hill, and Travis Snider are no slouches either.
Atleast Seattle sent Jones across the country, I couldnt stand seeing Jesus in those powder blue one piece jumpsuit uniforms
Talk about a freaking travesty of a trade. THANKS SEATTLE!
Uniforms supplied by Dickie’s
That’s great. You’re still counting on them leapfrogging two other teams in addition to the Yankees. Toronto is in a terrible situation and dealing to the teams that absolutely are blocking them from contention (not even in the more abstract sense dealing to… LAA would be) is counterproductive to generating fan interest, retaining and acquiring free agents, generating revenue, etc. So of course they’re going to attempt to bleed Boston and New York. Thankfully, Hank and George aren’t involved in this one.
If you’re going to trade anybody, NOT Montero. And you’d have to keep one of Hughes and Joba.
Which is why the Jays won’t trade Halladay to us. Because it needs to be a clear win for them in order to do it, and if they’re not getting Montero, it’s not a clear win.
That’s possible.
Francessa is a moron. Just saying.
Francessa is a moron. Just saying.
That’s settled law.
Sincerely,
Sonia Sotomayor
Sorry TSJC .. i dont see how landing a haul of Joba, Jackson, McAllister, and Melancon is a losing situation.
Because they have nowhere to play AJax with Lind, Snider, Wells, and Rios.
If they’re taking AJax instead of Montero, they’re going to demand that Cashman take back Wells’s contract to clear a path for AJax.
That team doesn’t look even remotely good. With no SS or 3B, that’s a lot of free base hits to give up.
http://www.instantrimshot.com
I totally agree with Chris. I never understood why teams wouldn’t trade within the division if they are getting the best package. The O’s have lived by this stupid rule for years and look at what they have achieved.
The O’s have lived by this stupid rule for years and look at what they have achieved.
What superior intradivision trades did they turn down that you’re referring to? The only Orioles trade of any note recently was the Bedard trade, and getting Adam Jones, Chris Tillman, George Sherrill, Kam Mickolio, and Tony Butler was a slam dunk of non-George-Tenet level proportions.
Even getting Luke Scott, Troy Patton, Matt Albers, Dennis Sarfate, and Mike Costanzo for 33 year old Miguel Tejada was a solid win. I’m not sure to what you’re referring.
The first thing that was report when Bedard was on the trading block is that Peter Angelos wouldn’t trade him in the division especially to the Yankee. It has been well documented that Peter Angelos doesn’t want to trade within the division.
But again, what were the Sox or Yankees going to give Angelos that was better than the haul he got from the Mariners? You implied that Baltimore is a worse team because they refused to deal their trade chips inside the AL East. I think they’ve done smashingly well even though they don’t do intradivision trades.
“But again, what were the Sox or Yankees going to give Angelos that was better than the haul he got from the Mariners? ”
We will never know because Angelos doesn’t trade within the division. What’s the need to handicap yourself by removing possible trade partners because there in your division?
As you pointed out below with the Blue Jays it can actually make you a better team in the long run.
As you pointed out above….
So, your argument is, the Orioles were definitely hurt by their policy of not trading intradivision–even if they weren’t actually hurt by that policy in any actual tangible evidential way–just because theoretically they could have been hurt by theoretical trades that we can only speculate about.
That’s weak.
Tommy, give me some reason why teams shouldn’t trade within their division?
And the FACT not theory or speculation is that O’s are subtracting 4 other farm systems that can help them rebuilt there team.
Wow… I can’t believe your bring up theory and speculation here of all place. If your going to do that I suggest you start writing because most of the comments here are base on either theory or speculation or both.
Relief pitcher and a replacement for Cody Ransom works for me. Halladay is luxury; not a need.
Halladay is about as sure a thing as you can get, but it’s still a gamble any time you trade for someone. The expectations would be so high, and so immediate if you got him, it just sets everyone up for failure and disappointment. Of course, keeping young players and counting on future performance is also a gamble.
It’s all in the details. We don’t really know what Ricciardi will ask for. Maybe he’ll end up in a pickle like the Twins apparently did with Santana, and end up having to deal him for less than he wants. Maybe the Jays have big financial worries, and will end up over a barrel and forced to deal. I don’t rule out Cashman making a move for Halladay, but it would have to be something unorthodox. He’s not going to deal 3 top prospects and Joba Chamberlain for Roy Halladay.
They can always wait and deal Halladay in the offseason
His value would be lower.
There is no way that they are trading ANY combination of Hughes, Joba & Montero for Halliday. They are starting to develop more home grown players like in the 90s, and I think that unless someone is a star (Like CC or Tex), this will be the new formula. ps: There may be another on the way: Tyler Lyons:
“9 IP, 2 H, 0 ER, 0 BB, 11 K (Yesterday’s numbers).
The start brought his season line up to
5 GS, 32.2 IP, 22 H, 6 BB, 29 K, 2.20 ERA
Tyler told me a couple of weeks ago that he and the Yankees were fairly close in terms of the numbers discussed during negotiations, so hopefully this strong turn on the Cape helps lock something down in the near future. When I spoke to him today about the complete game he told me he had all four of his pitches working, was throwing them to both sides, keeping hitters off balance, and that he’s back to feeling like he’s got his best stuff again………..” http://www.nomaas.org
This could potentially be a huge signing adding another lefty to the organization.
“They are starting to develop more home grown players like in the 90s, and I think that unless someone is a star (Like CC or Tex), this will be the new formula.”
Halladay IS a star.
Yes the best pitcher in baseball would equal STAR.
Just throwing this one out there please be gentle….lol
Joba+Pena+Romine+Robertson (OR sub Melancon if they push for more) for Halladay.
Opinions ? too much? too little?
Either Hughes or Joba.
No Hughes.
How come half a season makes us forget that for the majority of their careers Joba has been better than Hughes? All of a sudden this recent half season has suddenly outweighed all previous experience these two have had?
Joba has been better and more valuable this season as well. The gap between them has been shortened considerably this year though.
I just like Hughes overall package better then Joba. Yes, I mean those outside factors that we sometimes disregarded here I just think Hughes is little more mature.
Did you always think that or just this half season?
I’m not going to lie this half helped, but out of so called “Big Three” Hughes seem to be handing the Yankees zoo the best.
I’m not going to lie …
Brian, I’m gonna be honest with you, that smells like pure gasoline.
The facts are Hughes shuts the fuck up and does his job.
No DWI’s
No fist-pumping
No dumb ass comments in the press. ( More IPK)
No shaking off the catcher with 4 rings in his pocket.
I know some you guys don’t think much about those things, but I do that’s one of the reason I like Hughes better.
I know some of you guys…
Eh, I wasn’t really being critical of your position, I was just riffing off the “I’m not going to lie” line.
I like Joba better than Hughes, but picking between them is like picking between Selita Ebanks and Jessica White. They’re both excellent options.
agree
Too little.
If I’m Riccardi, it’s gotta be absolute minimum one of Joba/Hughes and one of Montero/AJax. And, if it’s AJax and not Montero, you have to take Wells.
Riccardi doesn’t move Halladay without getting at least one elite bat and one elite pitcher.
So what happens if he asks for this but doesn’t get it? Just accepts the free agent draft picks? Probably…but what happened with Santana made me think that these teams may sometimes have serious money concerns that we don’t know about. Maybe Toronto’s owners are thinking up ways of spending the millions they’d save by trading Halladay, and would ‘encourage’ Ricciardi to get rid of him, maybe for less than market.
halladay is under contract nxt yr too for only like 16 mil
I honestly didn’t know his salary, and that’s less than I would have thought. But if you assume the deal could very well involve Wells or Rios, too, then you’re talking about a pretty hefty salary off-load for Toronto’s ownership.
Besides Seattle, no organization would cough up 1 elite bat & 1 elite arm. Throw in payroll implications for the acquiring team and heightened demands of playoff success, and the GM and coach of the acquiring team would be putting their respective heads on the chopping block if Halladay didn’t put the team over the top.
Clearly the best fit is the Phillies as they’ve got several prospects who might be on the cusp of elite territory.
Wishful thinking, but seemingly waaaay too little. Pena is a backup SS,Romine is still only in A-ball and robertson/melancon don’t have the major league track record to be worth much in a trade. You’d have to include one of our more advanced bats like montero or ajax.
Oh, and Romine has virtually no value to them, because he’s J.P. Arenciba. They’re basically the same player. They need a power bat, not Romine.
We don’t know that. Each team looks at prospects differently. Romine might have no value to him, or Toronto may look at him and decide he has a bigger upside. We just don’t know.
That actually may be the best offer that Toronto would get, considering it would be tough for teams to give Toronto a better player than Joba and I don’t think teams are giving up their top two prospects. I suspect that Cashman would not offer that.
Ok I included Ajax, but i want Rios ( he has 60 million still coming to him) instead of Wells.
So
Joba+Ajax+Pena OR Romine+ Robertson OR Melancon for Halladay and Rios ( take all of the 60)
That deal is worse for Toronto than the first one in my opinion.
Why? Toronto gets Ajax for Rios and Take off 60 million of their payroll.
The Wells and Rios contracts are killing that team.
Rios is probably better than AJax will ever be.
Gosh I hope not. Everyone today seems so confident in predicting ballplayers’ careers, who am I to argue, but I’ll go on a limb and say I think he has a very good shot at being a better player than Alex Rios.
Compare their minor league stats – the major league outfielder who Austin Jackson best projects to is Grady Sizemore. I don’t know whether that should make us feel good or bad.
If that’s true then why are people making such a big deal about Ajax.
Rios is good, but most people don’t think he worth is current contract.
Because Rios isn’t making the league minimum.
If Rios had signed a 7yr/49M extension, he wouldn’t be on the trade block, because he’s a decent player. It’s the fact that he signed a 7/69M deal that makes him less desirable.
AJax is a valuable commodity because he figures to give you probably 70% of Alex Rios’s total offensive/defensive production at 2% of his price.
Well done.
thank you
Agreed.
Alex Rios has a 113 OPS+ over the past three and a half years and is owed:
10:$9.7M, 11:$12M, 12:$12M, 13:$12.5M, 14:$12.5M
Vernon Wells has a 107 OPS+ over the past three and a half years and is owed:
10:$12.5M, 11:$23M, 12:$21M, 13:$21M, 14:$21M
Rios’s contract is bad, but not horrible. Wells’s contract is the one that’s crippling. Rios is younger, a better hitter, and a better defender. Taking on Rios’s contract isn’t going to decrease your prospect cost, because he still has some value. The only way you lower your prospect cost is to take on Wells.
Very pointed, purposeful remarks by Cashmoney.
I don’t think he’s posturing for this trade. Rather, I feel he’s dispelling the notion that the Yanks farm is subpar- pointing out the positive contributions of trade pieces from the past.
I’m not willing to trade Joba, Hughes or Montero. Too risky in my view.
I understand completely not trading the trio in this situation.
If the cash-restricted Marlins put Josh Johnson on the block would you still hold that line?
I probably would, because Josh Johnson has a checkered injury dossier.
Felix Hernandez, however…
Felix Hernandez is also 9 years younger than Halladay, and we wouldn’t be trading prospects to a division rival.
What would you be willing to give up to get King Felix?
What wouldn’t I be willing to give up for King Felix is a better question.
Seattle can have their choice of Joba or Hughes, plus Montero, plus their choice of McAllister or Nova, and if they want Melancon too, that’s fine.
I’ve been saying all along that there’s no need to deplete the minor league prospects. Cashman is exactly right. Joba, Hughes, and Montero are all untouchables. No trade for Halladay will occur, thank God.
Cashman using Melky as an example of why they shouldn’t have got Santana is ridiculous.
The Hughes thing is fine.
Where’s his defense of Wang, Kennedy and Melky? That trade should have been made. And who’s saying this team couldn’t have got both CC and Johan?
The God of economics. They aren’t putting 15 years and 400 million dollars on 2 pitchers.
Trade Wang, he is a liability to the club. They should get Snell and put him in the starting rotation. Halliday should stay with the Blue Jays.
I think the Yanks should get Halliday and the Jays should get Melky, even though he is the walk-off king.
All I know is someone tell Boston to get their arm off my side of the chair….First place has a roomate…:)
you are right.
will be in 1st by ourself.