Trade Deadline Open Thread: Wednesday


We might as well start one of these. For those of you hoping the Yankees land Ian Snell … he’s just been traded to Seattle.

Use this thread to talk about the trade deadline today, and please keep the other threads clear of off topic comments. Thanks.

Update by Joe (1:18 p.m.): Via MLBTR, Joel Sherman reports that Brian Cashman hasn’t even asked to expand the 2009 payroll. I suspect that if the right deal came along, it wouldn’t take much convincing. Money quote: “This is pertinent because the Yankees do believe that the Red Sox have put Clay Buchholz into a trade offer for Halladay and that Boston just might get the ace righty.”

Halladay to Boston is a scary proposition, but far from the end of the world. The Yankees do have some pitching questions, and I presume that with the loss of Chien-Ming Wang, their No. 2 starter heading into the season, that the Steinbrenners will allow for a payroll exception if it means shoring up the rotation.

Update by Joe (2:21 p.m.): It’s unofficial as of the moment, but MLBTR is chronicling the Cliff Lee to Philly trade. Looks like Lee and Ben Francisco for Jason Knapp, Carlos Carrasco, Jason Donald and Lou Marson. That should keep them away from Halladay. Could Toronto turn to Boston?

Categories : Open Thread


  1. The Lodge says:

    Snell to Seattle Cause Washburn’s about to go…?

    • whozat says:

      I hope not to the Yanks. Moving to the AL East, in the homer-haven that is YSIII, playing in Fenway, with an OF that is basically average instead of unearthly…the guy’s not going to be any better than he was last year, not on the Yanks.

      At least Mitre keeps the ball on the ground pretty well. Washburn will give up runs in bunches.

      • the artist formerly known as (sic) says:

        Washburn has added velo and is sporting great numbers this year. Maybe its a one-year fluke, but I’m optimistic about his prospects.

      • Rocky Road Redemption (formerly RAB poster) says:

        I’d still like Washburn. Yes he’s a fly ball pitcher, but we’re not expecting him to be Cy Young. We’re only expecting a guy who’s bettert than Mitre.

        • whozat says:

          And my point is that I don’t know that he will be. Moving a flyball pitcher to a homer-haven and making his OF defense worse is a recipe for disappointment.

    • I just posted this in the other trade deadline thread, but I’ll throw it back up here. It’s even more apropos, since the Mariners are apparently buyers and not sellers:


      Tim Kurkjian on ESPN’s live SportsCenter about ten minutes ago:

      Q: Will Washburn end up in the Bronx?

      A: “My guess is no… He’s good, and the Yanks want him, but also keep in mind that the Yankees asked about Brian Bannister but weren’t willing to give up anything in return; that’s pretty much how the Yankees are doing things these days, they’re not giving up their best young prospects, and it’s going to take somebody pretty good to get Jarrod Washburn away from the Mariners, not just because of how well he’s pitched lately and the fact that the Mariners aren’t out of it yet, but I had a GM tell me yesterday that he thought Washburn was going to sign long term with the Mariners, therefore Seattle shouldn’t trade him.

      Now, Seattle is listening, of course, because it’s possible they could get two young players for him and help rebuild the team and then sign him in the offseason anyway, but again, if the Yankees aren’t willing to give up a pretty good piece, they’re not gonna get Jarrod Washburn from Seattle.

      • Rocky Road Redemption (formerly RAB poster) says:

        How in the world does he know? Cashman has remained totally silent on what he’s willing to give up to get anybody.

        • We’ve been sniffing all around all sorts of super buy low options, like Arroyo, Snell, Duchscherer, and Bannister. That indicates our unwillingness to give up anything of substance, which Kurkjian himself alluded to in pointing out that we didn’t trade for Bannister because we wouldn’t give up ANYTHING for him.

          • Jordan says:

            What is anything? It’s Brian Bannister. Jesus Montero for Brian Bannister? That’s definitely equal value, Stark.

        • Klemy says:

          Come on, Tim Kurkjian knows ALLLLLLLL! /wrists

          • JMK says:

            His article on the 100 pitch count was a pretty good read. He’s far better than most on ESPN.

            • Klemy says:

              That article was decent, I’m not arguing that. It’s his stupid opinion appearances during ESPN’s nightly coverage that annoy me.

              • JMK says:

                He sure doesn’t compare to a man of great genius like Kruk, but yes, he can be painful to watch.

                Davis is another one. The man can’t even speak English!

                I think Emmitt Smith should be an analyst for every sport on ESPN.

        • Russell NY says:

          He doesn’t know. ESPN lost its credibility because of their Red Sox alliance.

          • Look, I know ESPN has some credibility issues, but there’s nothing in that Kurkjian statement that doesn’t either square with the reality that we already know about or hasn’t already been said by other writers/bloggers not affiliated with ESPN.

            We need to come to grips with the fact that Seattle is not a motivated seller on Washburn and will only move him if they get impressed with a serious offer. We’re not getting Washburn without giving up either one prospect in the AJax stratosphere or two prospects in the McAllister stratosphere.

    • SoCalYankeeFan says:

      Maybe it Washburn and a Mariner OF (Wladimir Balentien who was DFA’d a few days ago).

      SoCalYankeeFan 8)

  2. Sam says:

    That sucks, I was hoping we could pick up Snell in a low-risk, medium-reward move. Anyone know anything about the prospects the Pirates got?

  3. kevin says:

    Jeff Clement, Ronny Cedeno, Aaron Pribanic, Brett Lorin and Nathan Adcocknt and rodney ceda

  4. Matt H. says:

    That makes me wonder if the M’s are gonna trade Washburn away…they are clearly still fighting.

    • Nady Nation says:

      Yea, I was gonna say – this seems like more of a buyer move than a seller move.

      • whozat says:

        Very true. Why would you get Wilson if you’re going to sell?

        • Thee4stringking says:

          Because if he signs an extension with the M’s, he could turn into their franchise SS?

          There is such a thing as being a buyer and still looking towards your future.

          • whozat says:

            Yes, there is, but the guy’s 31 years old. That is not an age at which you acquire a shortstop and look to extend him to be a cornerstone. That is an age at which you acquire him because he’s still good for now and then offer him arby when his deal expires because someone will probably sign him.

          • Nady Nation says:

            A 32 year old with a career OPS+ of 79 is going to be their SS of the future?

          • “Because if he signs an extension with the M’s, he could turn into their franchise SS?”

            I get your point, but I think it’s a stretch calling Jack Wilson a “franchise SS.” The guy’s been great in the field in his career, but he’s on the wrong side of 30 and he’s an awful hitter (only over 100 OPS+ twice in his career, last time was 3 years ago).

        • Nady Nation says:

          Exactly. Very bizarre though. They’re 6.5 games out of the division and 7.5 out of the Wild Card. Are Wilson and Snell really gonna give them that extra push?

          • whozat says:

            Yeah, very weird. Though Zduriwhatever has made mostly good moves so far, so one tends to give him the benefit of the doubt. Still…weird.

            • Thee4stringking says:

              Jack Z has built his reputation in Seattle by completely flipping the system created by Bavasi. I doubt this is the last we’ll hear from the M’s this week.

  5. the artist formerly known as (sic) says:

    Does this say anything about the Mariners’ direction for 09? Are they still sellers?

  6. John Duci says:

    The Phillies are going to get Lee. I really want the Yanks to get Duke.

  7. Tony says:

    Guess Snell wasn’t the “low cost, high upside” addition so many here thought him to be. There’s no one in this market worth their price. I’d rather do nothing.

    • Thee4stringking says:

      or trade for Arroyo, right?

      • Tony says:

        I’d rather have Arroyo for squat than trade 4-5 B-level prospects for bad pitchers, yeah.

        • Thee4stringking says:

          Meh, i’d still rather they go for Bannister instead.

        • A) Arroyo is also a bad pitcher
          B) Nobody suggested trading 4-5 B-level prospects for bad pitchers, we suggested trading one or two C-level prospects for one or two bad pitchers who have some reason to believe that there is upside there, something that Arroyo doesn’t have since he’s pitching like crap as usual
          C) You’re still misinterpreting the Mariners deal. They didn’t trade 4-5 B-level prospects for Ian Snell, they traded them for Ian Snell AND JACK WILSON, AN ALL STAR SHORTSTOP.

          • Tony says:

            Jack Wilson sucks and his primary role in the trade is clearing money for Pittsburgh. Keep fooling yourself about what these players are going for.

            • “Keep fooling yourself about what these players are going for.”

              Oh… Wait… When you put it that way, clearly you’re right. Very persuasive reasoning.

              • Tony says:

                I can propose absurd trades on RAB all day. What’s the point of it?

                Hey, let’s trade De la Rosa for Gallardo. It’s like the people that call into FAN.

                • That’s completely irrelevant to a conversation about the package the Pirates received for Wilson/Snell.

                • To further my point, look at the instant media coverage. Everybody reporting on the trade is leading with “M’s trade for Wilson”. Snell is mentioned as a throw in. He’s buried below the fold. Wilson is the lede.

                  Nobody is saying that the M’s traded for Snell and Wilson. It’s Wilson and Snell, or Wilson by himself in the headlines.

                • King of Fruitless Hypotheticals says:

                  …you think there’s any truth to that WDLR=Gallardo rumors?

                  His kid is really funny, and his wife is very kind to the people that sit around them. They are both very family oriented, and would be good influences on Yoba.

    • Well, we were proposing to deal for Snell, not Snell AND Jack Wilson. That changes the price quite a bit.

      • Tony says:

        Jack Wilson obviously is of no value to the Yankees and this isn’t a trade they couldn’t make. Taking Wilson’s contract has a great deal of value in itself. I think a good portion of the commenters here have wildly underestimated the asking price on these “bargains” so many of you have identified.

        • [ facepalm ]

          I’m not talking about us dealing for Wilson at all. I’m saying that Seattle wanted Snell AND Wilson, so they gave up more. We only wanted Snell, so we would have given up less.

          FAR less, since Wilson is the one with more trade value.

          • Tony says:

            You realize that Jack WIlson is 31, makes 7million dollars, and is hitting 260/300/380, right? You’re kidding yourself right now. They traded quite a bit to take on an old bad player and 7 million dollars of payroll. I’m going to go out on a limb and say Snell was the primary target here.

            • I’m going to go out on a limb and say Snell was the primary target here.

              The only person on that limb is you. That statement is ludicrous. Jack Wilson will be starting games for the M’s before the week is out. He’s a definite. Ian Snell is just a maybe.

              • Tony says:

                They’ll both be starting games, and if you think they deal Jeff Clement for Jack Wilson, you must also think their GM is retarded.

                • I can’t believe I’m really having a conversation with a guy who’s trying to tell me that Ian Snell is the centerpiece of a deal for Ian Snell and Jack Wilson. This is seriously mind boggling. I’m flabbergasted than anyone would know who Ian Snell and Jack Wilson are and think that it was Snell and not Wilson that the Mariners were hard after.

                  You’re making my mind melt. I didn’t know people could know so little about so much.

                • Doug says:

                  “I am ANGRY. ANGRY about JACK WILSON.”

                • Tony says:

                  I’m am flabbergasted that you think you have some kind of insight on Ian Snell that Zduriencik doesn’t. As if you’re the only who has any idea about Snell’s capabilities and MLB GMs are too blown away by names and undeserved accolades to realize that Jack WIlson sucks.

        • How so? The Pirates got Jeff Clement, Ronny Cedeno, Aaron Pribanic, Brett Lorin and Nathan Adcock for Ian Snell AND Jack Wilson. I think that’s a nice little package going to Pittsburgh, but if you think that means that the price for Snell was high than you’re overestimating that package and not taking Wilson’s inclusion in the deal into account.

          Nothing about this deal says that Snell wasn’t a decent option as a buy-low target.

  8. mryankee says:

    I think its time to go all in for Halladay-The Yanks cannot let him go to Boston-that would be a killer-However I do have one question-does Washburn not have better numbers than Halladay this year? I know Halladay is a better pitcher but for this year maybe washburn is an equal pickup for less money-players. In the end the yankees have come to far to let Halladay go to boston

  9. MP says:


    Any chance of a live chat later today to discuss trade deadline stuff?

  10. John Duci says:

    It looks like Halladay may be going to Boston. I keep hearing on ESPN that their ready to deal Bucholz and increase their offer from their last one… not good

    • Nady Nation says:

      “I keep hearing on ESPN that their ready to deal Bucholz and increase their offer from their last one…”

      Consider the source.

    • Nady Nation says:

      “I keep hearing on ESPN that their ready to deal Bucholz and increase their offer from their last one…”

      Consider the source.

      • King of Fruitless Hypotheticals says:


        espn just said that i’m included in their deal to Toronto…wtf am i going to do in Canadia? i’m a @#$@# American financial planner…

    • whozat says:

      Wait…ESPN talking up BOSTON?!?!?!

      The hell you say. That couldn’t be the Sox leaking misinformation to try to push the Yankees into giving up two young starters with major league success (admittedly, one in the ‘pen) for one 32-year old pitcher with a year and a half left on his deal, could it?

    • The Lodge says:

      Wishful thinking (on the part of the rEd Sox Pandering Network)?

  11. Matt H. says:

    Wierd that the M’s are buying instead of selling…or maybe they will do both?

    They are 4 games over .500 at 52-48, which puts them 3rd in the AL West 7.5 games behind the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim, Glendale, Pasadena, Long Beach, Compton.

    They are also 6.5 games behind Boston for the Wild Card, but would have to leap frog 3 teams to be in the lead.

    So, basically, I have no idea what they are doing, sellers? buyers? both? They might know just as much as I do.

    • whozat says:

      Read an article the other day lamenting the loss of the wheelin’-dealin’ GMs of yore. Maybe the Seattle guy knows he’s out of it, but instead of having a firesale he’s turning some quantity into a bit of quality so that he can make a package that’ll get back a blue chipper?

      I mean, no one’s trading a blue-chip prospect for Washburn + those five guys. But maybe someone who needs pitching and middle infield help would trade a blue chipper for Washburn + Wilson? The Angels?

  12. John Duci says:

    I hate how if the Yanks want Halladay we would have to trade Hughes and Joba but the Redsox centerpiece of a deal would be Bucholz. I think Hughes and Joba >>>>> Bucholz. Why do the Yanks always have to give up more??

    • Tony says:

      Bucholz isn’t close to enough for Halladay. If a trade does happen, that won’t be anything near the final package.

      • John Duci says:

        I wasnt saying Halladay for Bucholz straight up. I was just sayin why is Bucholz the centerpiece of the Redsox offer when our offer has to include Hughes and Joba.

        • We don’t know that an offer from the Yankees would have to include both Hughes and Joba.

          • Rocky Road Redemption (formerly RAB poster) says:

            And we don’t if any of the Red Sox deals would have to include ONLY Bucholz. So far every time we’ve heard those kinds of deals they’ve been debunked as crap.

          • John Duci says:

            Yes we do. On MLBTR today it said Cashman spoke to J.P. and it would take both Hughes and Joba.

            • Again: We don’t know that an offer from the Yankees would have to include both Hughes and Joba.

              I love how half the time conversation concerning baseball media centers on how biased and ill-informed the media is, and the other half of the time we take media-reported rumors as gospel.

          • toad says:

            Can we distinguish between offers and accepted offers here? Who says the Jays are going to take Bucholz and co.?

    • mryankee says:

      I am not sure how much riccardi likes bucholz-I saw him pitch and he is not anything special-way overrated-I dont think he would be enough-

    • gxpanos says:

      I wouldnt worry about Clay being the centerpiece of any deal unless it’s the entire farm that goes with him, which would kind of be nice. RS giving up everything for 32 year old? Sure, they might win a WS with him, or even two. But at what cost? When the Yanks plug in Montero, AJax, and Z-Mac in a couple of years, the Sox will be scrambling.

  13. The Lodge says:

    Cliff Lee – if he goes to Phillies – really drives down the cost for Doc, No?

    • Thee4stringking says:

      It really messes up the leverage Toronto has, almost forcing them to lower their price to a different team. As much as I’d like Toronto to get a minimum return on him, the last thing I want is him ending up on the Red Sox.

      • Chip says:

        Or they could just wait until the offseason when teams might be more willing to take on payroll. Toronto still has a ton of leverage due to the fact that Halladay isn’t a free agent until after next year.

        • Doug says:

          yes, but then he obviously impacts only one season and not two. hence, the speculation that their best deal is now.

  14. mryankee says:

    I am not saying he is definitely going to Boston-but if there is any chance the Yankees have to be involved and what the hell is so special about Bucholz I have seen himpitch and I dont get it at all-how the hell would bucholz be a good deal headliner-when they have Bard-but in the end the yankees cannot committ suicide and let halladay go to boston-that leaves us with cc aj and pary for rain.

    • whozat says:

      “how the hell would bucholz be a good deal headliner-when they have Bard”

      What? Bard is a reliever with one pitch over which he has shitty control.

    • Tampa Yankee says:

      1.) Back away from the cliff
      2.) Even if the Sox do get Halladay, as good as that 1-2-3 will be, they still are trotting out Penny and Smoltz every 5 days.
      3.) Plus that doesn’t solve their offense problems

      • Rocky Road Redemption (formerly RAB poster) says:

        Sorry, but I think if the Sox get Halladay it will be very, very tough to win the division.

        • Chip says:

          I don’t, figure Halladay has 12 starts left. Let’s say that instead of going 7-5 in those starts, they go 9-3. That’s only a two game difference when they’d literally have to sell the farm to get him. If Toronto didn’t like the Phillies package, they’d probably ask for Bucholz, Bard, Bowden and Lars from the Sox.

          And all of that is probably a best-case scenario. Like it was mentioned earlier, they’d still be running out Wakefield and Smoltz/Penny all the time.

          • Doug says:

            and how is that any worse than what we’re running out there at 4 and 5?

            • Chip says:

              It’s about the same to maybe a little worse than we’re at for our 4 and 5 starters but then again we have guys who can hit on our team.

        • Tampa Yankee says:

          Never said they wouldn’t be tough to beat, I just think this doom and gloom the season is over BS if they get Halladay is nonsense. Getting Doc and having that 1-2-3 does not guarantee them anything (see Maddux, Smoltz and Glavine led Braves).

    • Rocky Road Redemption (formerly RAB poster) says:

      I saw Bucholz and was unimpressed on the whole.

  15. K.B.D. says:

    The only reason the Yankees should be involved with Halladay is to drive up the price. They shouldn’t get him just to keep him away from Boston. That’s a bad way of doing business.

  16. Matt H. says:

    With some of those prospects from the Phils being held out of lineups, it looks like Philly is gonna get Lee.

    What does that do to the trade value of Halladay? And Washburn?

    I’d say it keeps Halladay’s price ridiculously high and def increases Washburn’s…

    • Doug says:

      if they feel like they “have” to trade halladay at this point, they’d lose leverage with the phils out of the mix. price might have to drop.

  17. No Washburn, plz.

  18. Doug says:

    1:03pm: Gordon Edes and Tim Brown of Yahoo report that the Phillies appear to be “on the verge” of acquiring Cliff Lee from the Indians for Carrasco, Knapp and at least two of Donald, Marson and Michael Taylor.

    • mryankee says:

      Gordon edes also broke the red sox trade theory yesterday and that was shot down by peter gammons about 10 minutes later-

  19. Alex M says:

    Where do the Yanks go from here? We need pitching depth if we are to make it deep into the postseason, if for no other reason that it will allow for the conservation of some of our most valuable pitchers (Sabbathia, Burnett, Hughes, Rivera). The Pirates are clearly in sell mode, perhaps Duke or Maholm as options? I think Doug Davis or Garland would represent good inning-eating options to save the Yanks staff and allow them to skip Joba’s starts so that he may be a more effective starter (or reliever) when it counts. Who else could be on the radar other than the overrated and destined to decline Washburn? Maybe they go pure relief with Downs or Bell?

  20. billbybob says:

    Well now it will be much less complicated for the Yanks to aquire both Ian Snell and Washburn.

  21. Anthony says:

    Cliff Lee to Phillies. Asking price to move down on Halladay. bad news for the yanks red sox made offer, with Bucholz and Bowden, now willing to offer either Masterson or Bard to: They might get Halladay :(

  22. mryankee says:

    Well can anyone tell me how any teams 123 would beat Beckett-Lester-Halladay. I am sorry to say it believe me but that would be overwhelming, especially the way CC looked last night-

    • Matt H. says:

      I’m not worried about CC, but I agree that a rotation with Beckett/Lester/Halladay and the Sox’s bullpen with Pap (minus the misstep last night) is pretty hard to beat.

      Hopefully the Jays are looking for less of a package for Halladay, now that it appears the Phils are out of the running.

      I’m still sticking to my Joba/ Montero [i]or[/i] AJax / + 2 more solid guys for Doc.

      It’s a move for the now and for the future. He’d only be 33 at the end of his current contract so extending him for 3 or 4 more years wouldn’t be that crazy.

      • mryankee says:

        well as I said all this is rumors and we should all know until the deal is done rumors usually end up being not true. Unti the jays actually deal hallday I wont believe it-If he is still set to og today that should be a sign-if this thing with the sox is all but done why would he be pitching this afternoon

      • Chip says:

        Why on Earth would we give up Joba/Montero/A-Jax plus more to get Halladay? First of all, this move only MARGINALLY upgrades the current team as you’d be replacing Joba in the rotation with Halladay. If the Yankees traded for Halladay and were still forced to use Mitre in the rotation, then this could possibly go down as one of the most stupid trades in history.

  23. Doug says:

    Joel Sherman of the New York Post has the latest on the Yankees, and it sounds like they could have a quiet trade deadline. Sherman says the team is showing no inclination to pursue Roy Halladay or Cliff Lee, and has not engaged in extensive talks for Jarrod Washburn. They’re not in on Bronson Arroyo, Doug Davis, or Jon Garland either. Sherman believes the Yanks might be content to let the Red Sox get Halladay:

    A person close to the Steinbrenner family said that Cashman has not even asked permission to expand the 2009 payroll nor is there anticipation that ownership would allow a significant financial increase now. This is pertinent because the Yankees do believe that the Red Sox have put Clay Buchholz into a trade offer for Halladay and that Boston just might get the ace righty.

  24. Kiersten says:

    “A person close to the Steinbrenner family said that Cashman has not even asked permission to expand the 2009 payroll nor is there anticipation that ownership would allow a significant financial increase now.”

    When has this ever been an issue?

    • Kiersten says:

      I still don’t see the Sox getting Halladay. Jays fans are going to go nuts to see the face of their team pitch for a division rival without the absolute maximum return. And that return is certainly not Buchholz + prospects.

    • Scooter says:

      Operative word is “significant” – means probably no Lee and no Halladay (and thankfully, no Arroyo)

      I’d expect Cash to stay engaged enough with the Halladay sweepstakes to ensure the Sox pay a lot for Doc… and he’ll look for back-of-the-rotation types to fill out the rotation, and maybe another pen arm.

      Who is this mysterious source? Trost? Levine? Billy Connors at the horse track? Or is Hank making anonymous calls from a phone booth?

  25. The Lodge says:

    The interesting thing from Heyman is that if the Jays can’t move Doc, then League or Frasor could become available. What kind of package would it take for either of those guys?

  26. gio says:

    If the Phils get Lee, all signs point to RS getting Doc. Yikes.

    • Russell NY says:

      Its all smoke and mirrors. I don’t see why the Sox would be making a run at a pitcher. They have Dice-K, Lester, Bucholz, Penny, Beckett, Masterson, and Wakefield.

      They are just putting this down to block the Yankees, that is all. They know the Yankees need a pitcher.

      The Red Sox need hitting, not pitching.

  27. Kilgore Trout says:

    Question: Which side balked at the Rios for Lincecum trade a couple years back?

  28. DreDog says:

    Let the Sox get Halladay. It will be that much better when we beat them.

    The only thing I ask is that the Jays rape their farm system.

    • jsbrendog says:


    • True, but you’re just tearing down one opponent to build up another.

      I’m just saying.

    • ARX says:

      Sorry, I’m trying to be optimistic…but the Sox are a tough enough team for us as it is, and any game against Halladay is a 90% chance of a golden shower, and all signs point to the price going DOWN, instead of up. Even with their problems with offense, no way getting Doc doesnt make them as close to a lock for the WC as you can get in baseball, and until further notice our potential playoff rotation is still, essentially, CC/AJ/…/…!?!?
      God forbid the Jays go into ‘take what they can get’ mode and drop the price even further, but either way, I dont see any bright side whatsoever to Halladay-to-the-Red Sox, short or long term.

      • King of Fruitless Hypotheticals says:

        really–no snark–either golden shower doesnt mean what you think it means, or you are REEEEALLY upset (or freakishly pleased) when somebody loses to Doc…

        if the sox put it to the jays in the doc trade, the jays will go away and not come back for another five years. if the jays put it to the sox, the sox future hangs on one pee-soaked sock this time, and while the jays do get better, they’re still a nearly irrelevant fourth place team. and if that offends them, they can meet the rays behind the school at 3.

        the sox can have all the pitchers they want not on the yankees–we cant beat them, but they wont be in the playoffs this year.

  29. zs190 says:

    Honestly, you don’t make this deal if you are Seattle and then turn around and trade Jarrod Washburn. Jack Wilson only makes sense if you intend to win now. So to me, that means no Washburn for us for sure.

    I still think Aaron Harang makes the most sense for us. He’s been durable and has had great peripherals. His BABIP number is significantly higher than career norms so he’s been unlucky. He’s signed for 11 million this year, 12.5 next year, 12.75 in 2011 with 2 million buyout, a tad expensive but if the Reds eat say 3 million or so, it doesn’t seem too bad to have Harang for about 10 million next year as a #3 or #4 starter considering there aren’t that many good pitchers available this FA.

  30. Paul O'neil says:

    joba and 2 prospects offered by yankees for doc

  31. FWIW, it’s Buchholz.


  32. D says:

    LMAO @ the fact he thinks Cashman has to ask to increase payroll. Sherman is a moron and the Post is for people who cant read.

    • jsbrendog says:

      wow. have you read anything on the yankees this year? common sense and deduction would denote that in any situation where payroll is significantly impacted cashman would need the ok from Hal.

      See: Mark teixeira signing. Cashman had to call Hal and lobby to sign him cause he fell into their laps.

      • Russell NY says:

        Tex wanted to be a Yankee. You think Halladay would want to follow his buddy Burnett?

        • jsbrendog says:

          this point is completely irrelevant to the fact that cashman had to consult hal to get permission to sign him and increase the payroll so significantly going forward because there were no plans to take on another free agent.

          so while i dont disagree, our points are divergent.

          and, I only hope halladay wants to follow his buddy burnett if the cost is none of joba/hughes./ajax/montero. but since it isn’t i could care less where he goes

      • Kiersten says:

        Well of course he has to ask, but who really thinks he’s going to say no?

    • Well, yes, Sherman is a moron (sometimes) and yes, the Post is for people who can’t read (including it’s writers), but no, Cashman does need to ask to increase payroll. If he didn’t have to ask, Mike Cameron would have been our centerfielder all year long.

  33. Doug says:

    sherman just chimed in that the phils and indians are “very close”

  34. Joan Iz My Brohan says:

    “Blue Jays GM J.P. Ricciardi indicated that it’s unlikely he’ll make a deal for Roy Halladay” on MLB.coms front page. Though this could mean ‘anything’ at this point, I really do think that Boston’s alleged offer is there to simply block other teams like the Yankees and make them pay more.

    At some point you have to find it odd, that not only were the Sox connected to every big name possibly available on the trade market, but they were also connected to Tex, and to some extent Burnett. The sox are either doing their homework, or the media is connecting things together.

    I just find it strange that Buccholz is the all-important piece in everydeal, and how they could supposedly get away with trading Buccholz, Lowrie, Anderson/Reddick, and the like in every deal. A combination of 3 of those 4 players is worthless to me.

  35. Mikebk says:

    if philly gives up knapp, taylor and marson or donald along with crappy carrasco they gave up a really large amount and might as well have just given up drabek to get roy.

    • Drabek is way better than any of Knapp, Taylor, Marson, Donald, or Carrasco.

      And that’s a false dichotomy, because it wouldn’t have been just Drabek by himself, it would have been Drabek AND several of those guys.

      • Mikebk says:

        my point was if the differential in the deal was basically drabek or knapp to get roy vs lee, you give up drabek.

        scouts have given slight edges to brown over taylor, but not significant differentials. so basically it ends up with knapp for lee or drabek to get roy.

    • zs190 says:

      Depends on how you view Knapp. There’s definitely a lot of people that think he’s no more than a power reliever in the future. Reliever vs a #3-#2 is a big difference.

  36. Hova says:

    “Not the end of the world”. Really Mike? Halladay, Beckett and Lester. That should strike the fear of God in all Yankee fans.

    • Mike Axisa says:

      I didn’t write that, Joe did. And yes, if the Sox had that front three it would be scary, but not the end of the world. Their problem is scoring runs and the bullpen.

      • Hova says:

        Sorry about that. Missed that it was Joe. I’m just saying that in a playoff series against them, if they’re sending out Halladay, Beckett and Lester, they would have to give it away to lose.

        • Chip says:

          Not even Halladay, Beckett and Lester can win games unless their offense can score a run or two.

        • King of Fruitless Hypotheticals says:

          who cares?? we wont be playing them in the playoffs this year…so that makes all this front three crap a moo point…

    • jsbrendog says:

      nope. not striking anything into me.

    • AndrewYF says:

      Their pitching has been mostly lights-out in July. But their record is 11-11. Acquiring Halladay would be good for the playoffs, but even with that rotation the playoffs are not a guarantee.

    • Ivan says:

      Yeah it would be scary, but it wouldn’t be OMG, im gonna piss my pants scary though.

  37. E-ROC says:

    Justin Duchscherer, please.

  38. bonestock94 says:

    Theres no way Ricciardi will be so picky with everyone and accept crap from the Red Sox. If Halladay goes to the Sox it will be bad news but their farm will take a major blow.

  39. Mikebk says:

    does JP really have any leverage if the phils get lee?

    • D says:

      How can he not he doesnt have to trade Halladay, he can hold on to him until the offseason and move him where he can probably get more for Doc

      • AndrewYF says:

        Not if Halladay can demand a trade, or else free agency.

      • Mikebk says:

        there is no way he gets more value for roy in the offseason than he would have in a pennant race, just doesnt happen. not to mention the intrigue of roy is the chance because you have for a year and 2 months to give up pieces to have a shot at 2 titles not 1. instead he will be looking at johan type packages.

  40. I thought the whole point of playing ANY MLB season was to win the World Series….Am I wrong?

    Lets say you give up 4 top notch prospects, you don’t think that for the 1.5 years you have Doc, you can draft another round of “top notch” prospects and/or sign IFA?

    Then say you let him go and you get 2 Draft picks? Doesn’t that replenish the farm?

    I don’t get it….besides Joba and Hughes, what has our farm system produced lately? IPK? lol….even go back 10 years….what Ted Lilly and Nick Johnson? come on….Make the trade for a known commodity, win the WS, then draft wisely again next year…..

    • Russell NY says:

      It’s hard when you win and have one of the best records every year yielding some high picks. I know there are exceptions but come on.

    • Joan Iz My Brohan says:

      I agree, because the Yankees will draft Bryce Harper……

    • jsbrendog says:

      chien ming wang, robinso cano, francisco cervelli, alfonso soriano, alfredo aceves, brett gardner, marcus thames, omir santos, dioneer navarro, ted lilly, and im sure there are some i am missing.

      • WOW…you can fill out an all-star roster with that…

        Not one is even close to Doc.

        I’ll give you the three IFA signings were very good…..but the rest of those actually prove my point.

    • Chip says:

      Yeah prospects don’t win WS. I mean look at the dynasty teams of the 90′s that had Jeter, Pettite, Posada, Bernie………shit let’s try this again.

      Last year’s Phillies championship team had mercenaries like Hamels, Howard, Rollins, Utley…..damn this is really hard!

      Well…….anyhow prospects aren’t important because I don’t get to see them play now and they’re not a shiny new toy!

      • FYI Chip, Brian Cashman and our current “regime” didn’t have anything to do with that.

        • jsbrendog says:

          how is that relevant?

        • Chip says:

          You just don’t get the fact that it takes years to build up a good farm system. From 2000 onward, this whole mentality that prospects are just there to trade for shiny new toys. They can’t just go out and refill the farm through the draft and IFA each year. For one, IFA are so out there that you have no idea what they’ll become and they usually don’t bear fruit for at least 6-8 years. As for the draft, it’s weird but we can’t just sign all the best guys as they’re taken ahead of us.

          The mentality of giving up anything to get a pitcher that will soon start to decline is how we ended up with Kevin Browns and Randy Johnsons.

          The whole idea is to develop what you can through your farm and use your financial muscle to add free agents like Tex and CC who are just starting their prime years. So by that logic, you keep Joba and Hughes and then pair them with somebody like Felix Hernandez in a few years.

  41. D says:

    MLBTR says the Phils would also get Ben Francisco in the deal, good move by the Phils if it works

  42. Russell NY says:

    12:42pm: Ken Rosenthal and Jon Paul Morosi report that the sides have agreed to a deal that sends Lee and Francisco to Philly for prospects.

  43. Paul O'neil says:

    have a friend that works for espn insider. joba and 2 prospects, not sure who they are though

  44. AndrewYF says:

    What a great deal for Philidelphia. They get Lee AND another major leaguer for a package that doesn’t surround Drabek.

    One wonders if the Yankees couldn’t have matched it without including Joba or Hughes.

    • D says:

      people always try to rape the yanks for specs

      • AndrewYF says:

        except when they don’t. See: Bobby Abreu, Nady/Marte, Nick Swisher, Hinske.

        • ChrisS says:

          Abreu – Major salary dump by the Phillies

          Nady/Marte – the Yankees were bidding against themselves for a guy having a career half-season and 30+ reliever, and gave up a promising OFer – regardless of what you thought of Tabata after he was traded.
          Swisher – salary dump of a player that had several altercations with the manager.

          Hinske – a bench guy salary dump

          None of those guys = Halladay or Lee, except possibly Abreu, but he was 32, declining, and owed a lot of money when he was traded.

  45. nick blasioli says:

    we sure as hell need at least two pitchers…..i absolutely hate to hear that they will sit on their hands the next couple of days…it makes me sick to think that boston would get doc..if that happens,,the yanks can forget the series or maybe even the playoffs..mr. cashman please dont let that happen…

    • jsbrendog says:

      it makes me sick to think that boston would get doc.

      you should see a doctor cause that is def not what is making you sick.

      if that happens,,the yanks can forget the series or maybe even the playoffs..

      this isn’t even remotely able to be proven through anything other than you being sick, which as previously established, is not from the sox getting halladay

      • nick blasioli says:

        well just think about it before making stupid comments…the sox are a great team..doc,,makes them out of sight…plain and simple…that being said from a yankee fan for my whole life..

    • Kiersten says:

      Why are people overreacting to this? How does acquiring Halladay make the Yanks miss the playoffs? First of all, Halladay’s WARP last year was 9 (and only 5.7 and 5.4 in 07 and 06, respectively). Meaning if it’s the same this year, he gives the Sox about 3-4 extra wins. And regardless, say he gives them enough to take the division, the Yanks are still favorites for the wild card.
      And the Yanks can forget the series? Say they face the Sox in the CS, I recall the Yanks killing Beckett earlier this year and winning a game Halladay started 3 weeks ago. If Joba and Hughes are both in the pen come October, the Yanks definitely have the edge there.
      Acquiring Halladay really doesn’t do that much for the Sox. Certainly not enough to justify emptying their farm.

      • JMK says:

        I agree that people are overreacting but denying that Lester, Beckett and Halladay would not be a sizeable advantage over any starting three in a playoff series is simply untrue.

  46. V says:

    The object of the season, for, say, the Brewers, is to win the World Series.

    The object for the Yankees is to win the next ten World Series, consecutively, and go down as the greatest dynasty in sports history.

    Trading Joba+Hughes+Montero+Jackson can help you win the World Series this year. But the Yankees aren’t the Brewers. They need these guys to ensure the dynasty continues.

  47. Drew says:

    Just watching highlights of the Sox A’s game last night. Why on earth are umps allowed to initiate contact with a manager/coach yet when it’s the other way around the manager gets fined, suspended etc..?

  48. Mikebk says:

    phils just got better basically trading knapp for lee as donald and carassco have been crap this year and marson isnt really great. with lee only making 8 mil next year they could just let myers walk and it wont even really cost in salary.

  49. What DYNASTY?

    You have to win one before you can win two in a row.

  50. Drew says:

    Man that’s a good pickup for the Phils if it goes through as expected.

  51. Chris says:

    Lee to Phillies deal done per Fox

  52. The Fallen Phoenix says:

    If the Red Sox get Halladay, would their top-three be any better than the Atlanta glory-days rotation of Maddux, Smoltz, and Glavine?

    Probably not. And since Maddux/Smoltz/Glavine were beatable, even in the postseason, I’m sure Halladay/Beckett/Lester would also be beatable.

    Nevermind that the 2009 Red Sox have maybe half the offense supporting the Maddux/Smoltz/Glavine rotations in their prime.

    • Chip says:

      A breath of fresh life your common sense is

    • jsbrendog says:

      fred mcgriff/sid bream >>>> adam laroche
      mark lemke and pedroia prob a wash in the long run maybe edge to pedroia
      no one can remember the name of either teams ss
      terry pendleton/chipper jones >>>>>>>> Squirrel Beard
      javy lopez >>>> the big C

      meh, i dunno…they might have an edge in the OF over the otis nixon/ron gant/deion sanders/ryan klesko/kenny lofton/david justice

      but don’t forget the braves did have steve avery too who would have been a 2 or 3 on many other teams. and they still couldnt get it done

    • Nevermind that the 2009 Red Sox have maybe half the offense supporting the Maddux/Smoltz/Glavine rotations in their prime.

      Well, maybe not, because those Braves teams weren’t deep either, but I get your point.

      The only Sox hitters who really scare you anymore are probably Bay, Youkilis, and Pedroia, and all of them are slumping badly and look like they were playing way over their heads last year and have experienced the nastiness of regressions to the mean. That lineup is just all kinds of average. Drew and Varitek are “meh”, Green, Ellsbury, Ortiz, and Lowell are black holes, and the bench is punchless.

    • Look at the other side of your argument……

      What do you think about Doc, CC, and AJ with our offense?

    • ARX says:

      I get the whole Yankee fan, nothing is certain in baseball, optimism thing….but even with all their supposed offensive problems that I’ve seen used in this thread to rationalize that Halladay to Boston would be no big deal, the Sox are still 58-41, 5th best record in MLB, leading the WC, and still only 2.5 back of us. If those positions hold, we better pray someone gets lucky and knocks them out in the LDS because I don’t see any way in hell we’re getting past Beckett/Lester/Halladay with Joba out of the rotation by mid September and no sign that the Yanks will wake the hell up and put Hughes back in the rotation.

      • Chip says:

        Yeah, I hear the Yankees had no chance in hell of beating three Hall of Fame pitchers in their prime in the 1996 WS either. I’d say there’s a VERY good chance that the Yankees can make the postseason as either the division winner or WC and I’ll take our team against anybody at the point.

      • JMK says:

        LDS? The Fightin’ Mormons!?

  53. Chip says:

    Phillies vs Dodgers for this year’s NL crown. I feel like the Indians got pretty cheated in this deal.

  54. gio says:

    LHP Cole Hamels
    LHP Cliff Lee
    LHP JA Happ
    LHP Jamie Moyer

    Very left-handed roatation; not sure what that means, though…

  55. Tank Foster says:

    If Halladay goes to Boston, well, to me that’s better than them getting Adrian Gonzalez. This season, it might make the Red Sox 4-5 games better. Gonzalez could impact far more games than that.

    Halladay is 32; he’s had a very heavy workload the last few seasons. There is no way I give up Joba/Hughes/prospects for him. If the Red Sox get him for Buchholz, Bard, and Anderson, however, it’s a steal for Boston. I can’t believe Toronto would go for this.

    • Chip says:

      Not to mention having to see Adrian Gonzalez hit everything in sight over the Green Monster for years to come

    • Brandon says:

      I completely agree, Boston would be getting him for a steal. When I saw what they were offering for Halladay versus what Toronto asked of us, my jaw dropped open. Is Boston’s package really on par with what we would have to pay?

  56. Tom Zig says:

    What would it take for the Sox to get Victor Martinez?

    While we know they like Adrian Gonzalez, they won’t mortgage the farm to get him. (although I’ve seen sox fans say laroche,bowden, tazawa and penny for gonzalez)

    • Martinez’s price should be pretty equivalent to Halladay’s.

      Buchholz and stuff.

      • Tom Zig says:

        I just wanted to hear it from a sane person. Thank you.

      • Mikebk says:

        i dont think they cant realistically ask for Buchholz even if i think he is overrated considering they just sold their cy young pitcher for basically jason knapp.

    • jsbrendog says:

      although I’ve seen sox fans say laroche,bowden, tazawa and penny for gonzalez

      no chance in hell. theo gets laughed at and/or hung up on

      • Tom Zig says:

        haha yeah let’s catalog this proposal

        2 #4 starters

        a backup/emergency 1st baseman aquired for nearly nothing and making a decent amount of money and plays bad defense

        and Tazawa, which i don’t even know what he will amount to

        • jsbrendog says:

          but tazawa made the aa all star game!!1!11!1!!11111!! and penny requires a smoak type bat!11!!!!11!1

    • Kiersten says:

      Every report I’ve read says Gonzalez is not on the market, the only people who seem to think he is are members of RSN.

  57. Doug says:

    for those interested, jim callis just wrote that he is “stunned” that the phils were able to get lee without giving up any of their 4 most valued pieces (drabek, happ, brown, taylor)

  58. Joan Iz My Brohan says:

    1:14pm: ESPN.com’s Buster Olney reports that the Blue Jays haven’t made significant progress towards a possible Halladay deal. Instead, a source tells Olney “all is quiet.”

  59. Ajay says:

    Boston always seems to get players gift wrapped for them. Funny when the Yanks wanted Curt Schilling a few years back Arizona wanted the world for him but Casey Fossum got that deal done for Boston. It is amazing how overhyped these Boston prospects are. Hughes or Joba is ten times more seasoned then a Clay laptops. If that Boston package is true then they really are not giving up much at all. It seems like a trend in baseball outside of Pittsburgh to try and take the Yanks to the cleaners.

    • jsbrendog says:

      you’re like the bajillionth person to mention schilling.

      BUT, schilling was a direct result of David wells having a verbal agreement with the owner of the Diamondbacks (colangelo?) and then renegging on it to sign with the yanks after getting wined and dined by the big stein.

      Therefore, when the yanks came knocking for schilling, the gm was told to stick it to them. that was a one time deal motivated by animosity and emotion (a terrible way to run a team, cause look where fossum is now) and has no relevance to anything happening in today’s reality

    • Tom Zig says:

      maybe its because they know we actually have good prospects and they think Hank Steinbrenner is running the team when its really the brain trust of Hal and Brian.

  60. bonestock94 says:

    Oh man, we’re getting some tin foil hat theories going now..

    • Tom Zig says:

      like Boston trying to acquire victor martinez and cliff lee?

      I saw that a couple days ago and thought well they could pull it off if they wanted, but damn their farm system would look like the Yankees’ circa 2004-2005

  61. Joan Iz My Brohan says:

    1:17pm: Ricciardi tells Danny Knobler of CBS Sports that Halladay will “definitely” pitch for the Blue Jays tonight. Meanwhile, Heyman wonders if the Jays will be stuck with Halladay now that Boston’s talking a lot about Victor Martinez.

  62. Reggie C. says:

    I step away from my internet addiction and i’m 300 posts late on this open thread …


    Montero for Cain. That’d drop jaws… (mine included).


  64. Johan Iz My Brohan says:

    The way I look at things is that Bostons alleged offer is just a package on the table for Gonzalez, Martinez or Halladay, and that it is not directed to any specific target. Just basically what they what the package would be to get them.

  65. Tom Zig says:

    Are we going to have a spill over thread?

  66. D says:

    Maybe the Phils will now trade Drabek and others for Halladay and win the NL for the next few years

  67. jsbrendog says:

    wow. according to mlbtr pirates pay all but league minimum for snell and wilson for the rest of 09. that’s crazy

    • Johan Iz My Brohan says:

      Wow they refuse to go all out in the draft as to not pay for top 10 talent, and save money for Sano. Yet, they still have to pay for Snell and Wilson, and gave the Yankees money.

    • Zach says:

      yeah but thats only a few million. Seattle has to pay Wilson 8m next year and whatever snell is owed over his contract

    • Mikebk says:

      they gave money to get better prospects.

    • And, the other shoe drops. I guess Tony was right, I was WAY off on the price for that package “headlined by Ian Snell”.


      Seriously, though, I think the 2009 Pirates have had one of the best seasons a shitty team with a weak farm could possibly have. They sold off pretty much everything they could, and none of the pieces they sold were all that good, but they got several good new pieces in return (Clement, Cedeno, Milledge, Gorkys, Morton, Locke) and brought up Andrew McCutchen and Robinzon Diaz who look solid.

      If they can spin off Grabow, Sanchez, and Capps for more stuff, they may have a solid core in a year or two.

  68. Jay says:

    this was sent to me:

    ESPNs Peter Gammons reports that the New York Yankees, Toronto Blue Jays, and California Angels have agreed in part to a 3 way trade involving 12 players with Roy Halladay (TOR) going to the Yankees, Melky Cabrera (NY), Phil Hughes (NY) and Jorge Posada going to the Angels, and Chone Figgins and Vladimir Guerrero heading to Toronto. Other prospects are still on the table but the deal is said to be done before Friday’s deadline.

    Please no!

  69. Thee4stringking says:

    MLBTR is saying the Pirates are paying all but 400k of Wilson and Snell’s salaries.

  70. E-ROC says:

    I wonder if Brandon Morrow is actually available, because the M’s would be selling low if traded. Extremely low.

    • Zach says:

      they have no reason to trade him unless theres character/health issues.
      hes young, under control and unproven and like you said his value is extremely low

  71. Johan Iz My Brohan says:

    MLBTR: Ricciardi still says he’d have to be wowed to move Halladay, according to Peter Gammons of ESPN.com. Gammons says it doesn’t look like there’s a “wow” deal out there.

  72. Doug says:

    I know this will be ripped to shreds here, but Jim Callis Q & A:

    Q: Would Hughes, Jackson and Montero be enough to land Halladay? If you were the Yankees GM, would you make that deal?

    A: Might need a fourth player, but I’d seriously think about it. I’d hate to lose Montero, but hey, it’s Roy Halladay.

    • ARX says:

      Thank god he isn’t running our team then.

    • Yankee1010 says:

      Well, yeah, that wouldn’t be enough. Callis the Sox fan would love for the Yanks to include, Joba, Cano, Jesus Christ, Moses, Noah, and 2 of every animal.

      Would the Jays really say no to Hughes, Jackson and Montero? Not if they’re sane.

      • Doug says:

        he was just saying this is equivalent to what the jays were demanding from the phils for doc

        • Yankee1010 says:

          Yeah, but I would argue that Hughes, Jackson and Montero would trump the package that they were demanding from the Phillies. I’d take Hughes over Drabek and Montero over any of the other guys in the proposed Phillies trade. In any event, it’s a moot point. I’d take Taylor and/or Brown over Jackson, but not by a huge amount.

          Callis isn’t exactly quick to praise the Yanks. Not a big deal, because he’s not running the Yanks and he has no real effect on any transactions. He’s more annoying than anything.

      • JohnnyC says:

        How sick is it that a guy who grew up in Virginia, went to school in Georgia, and has lived in Chicago for most of his adult life…is somehow a freaking Red Sox fan?

  73. charlespoet says:

    Boston with Halladay does not scare me as much as the Angels with Halladay. Perhaps I think to highly of Scoscia over Francona, thinking Mike gets more out of less talent than Terry does.

  74. Johan Iz My Brohan says:

    MLBTR: Ricciardi tells Sherman he expects to keep Halladay through 2010 and try to win next year.

    • Kiersten says:

      Just saw this on Twitter:

      Cliff is now a Phil-Lee.

      Haha cute.

    • Russell NY says:

      I can’t tell if this guy is just talking. You have to think his package (hah) isn’t going to be as good now with the Phillies out. Maybe he sees his only viable option as trading inside the NL East and decides not to?

    • Reggie C. says:

      If Riccardi’s trying to win 4th place in the AL east , it’ll be a dogfight. He’ll definitely need Halladay to achieve that.

  75. charlespoet says:

    just to break up the trade talk, check out this Red Sox website. It opens with Poison Pen showing Papelbon… love it.


  76. charlespoet says:

    If this has already been discussed, my apologies. Who would you give up, Joba or Hughes?

  77. Jordan says:

    When asked whether pitching a perfect game or hitting two grandslams in one game was the more impressive feat, Peter Gammons replied “The single most impressive story of this year is Josh Beckett conquering finger blisters. It shows real tenacity, a passion for the game that breeds championships and putting his team first.”

  78. Thee4stringking says:

    Reds aquire Wladimir Balentien for pitcher Robert Manuel

    I’ll let you guess the source.

  79. Russell NY says:

    MLBTradeRumors: Ed Price of AOL FanHouse reports that the Reds acquired Wladimir Balentien from the Mariners for righty Robert Manuel.

  80. Yanks Fan says:

    “Finally, I want to stress this: There are no indications whatsoever that the Yankees are about to do anything major.”

    PeteAbe’s Lohud Blog

  81. So, since J-Dukes is apparently available for a “modest” prospect, what exactly does that mean? Who would it take to get him? Starter or reliever? He’d have to start at this point, right? But are we confident in him holding up enough? There is probably room enough to add a starter but there’s also a starter to be added w/o giving away anything, and I think that’s a course that should be taken rather than looking instantly for outside help.