A-Rod: Yankees vs. Mariners
ByBuried at the bottom of this piece from SI’s Tom Verducci is an interesting little note: Alex Rodriguez now has more at-bats with the Yankees than he did with the Mariners. That kind of surprised me at first because it seems like Alex was with the Mariners for an eternity, but yep, he had 3,126 official at-bats with them and right now sits at 3,136 with the Yanks. He must have passed his Seattle total sometime during Saturday’s game (I’m guessing, I didn’t bother to look). Plate appearances is a bit of a different story, because A-Rod has almost two hundred more of those with the Bombers than he did in the Great Northwest (197 to be exact). He’s also appeared in 51 more games with the Yanks than M’s, but I digress.
Since he’s officially had more at-bats with the Yanks than any other team, let’s take a second to look at how Alex’s stats compare with the two clubs.
With Seattle: .309-.374-.561, 17.5 K%, .252 IsoP, .335 BABIP
With New York: .299-.400-.568, 18.9 K%, .269 IsoP, .322 BABIP
There’s a rather significant difference in his counting stats like homers and RBI and stuff like that because he was playing his games in different parks with different teams and different lineups in different divisions, and frankly it was a different era as well (pre-PED testing vs. post). Overall, A-Rod’s been basically the same player. He’s hitting for slightly more power now, which is what you’d expect considering he’s older and spent most of his prime-aged seasons with the Yanks. He’s also sacrificed 10 pts of batting avg for 24 pts of on-base percentage, a tradeoff I’ll take every day of the week.
The biggest difference is that Alex’s numbers with the Yanks are coming from third base, whereas with the Mariners he was manning the middle infield. Those numbers coming from a shortstop aren’t just great, they’re historically great.
The question is this: let’s say A-Rod retired right now, today, for whatever reason. What hat does he wear in the Hall of Fame? All the PED stuff is irrelevant here, this is just a hypothetical. A-Rod’s production warrants unanimous selection into the Hall of Fame if you ask me. What do you think, Yankee cap or Mariner cap? Discuss.
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Uh guys he has 8 more years in a Yankee uniform and will probably break the all time home run record in a Yankee uniform. Is it even a question?
“…let’s say A-Rod retired right now, today, for whatever reason.”
Reading Fail.
Mark: Joe, as of right now who is the AL MVP?
Joe Morgan: That’s difficult to answer because the season is not over,
KT: The question was “as of right now.”
Theoretical Joe Morgan: Right, and it’s hard to answer because of what will happen in the future.
KT: But…the question is: right now, who’s the MVP. Like, now. At this moment.
TJM: But I can’t answer that, because I can’t tell the future.
KT: Hang on. Let me try something. What time is it?
TJM: No way to tell.
KT: Because you don’t know what time it will be in the future?
TJM: Correct.
KT: Fair enough.
http://www.firejoemorgan.com/2.....echat.html
Love that.
ok, i admit it, i peed a little!
Absolutely Yankee.
It won’t even be an arguement in the end. By the time his contract is up A-Rod will be a Yankee.
He’d wear a Yankee cap into the Hall of Fame, if such a building existed anymore.
http://www.theonion.com/conten.....=a-section
really should be the Hall of Justice…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6__lMLoVMe0
… now I see why kids in the 70′s smoked so much pot. Their toys sucked.
Ha. I totally had this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzdOVqZg7Lk
And it was awesome.
Yankee cap, even though I believe he was loved more in Seattle. But this happens with any player that comes to the Yankees.
As of today, he’ll be wearing a Yankee hat. Two of his three MVP awards, 227 of his 572 homers (39.6% of his career total – the highest of the three teams). His two best years as a major leaguer were as a Yankee.
And the media attention of his as a Yankee mean that many or most fans associate him with wearing the pinstripes, not the Mariners or the Rangers. Kind of like how King Felix will be remembered in about 12 years.
“Kind of like how King Felix will be remembered in about 12 years.”
From your mouth to Mo’s ears.
First one to actually answer the question. Totally agree with you
“First one to actually answer the question.”
False.
How about “first one to actually answer the question using fact”.
“Using fact?” Let’s go with “first one to answer the question and give supporting reasons.” I’m not sure one can really “use fact.”
Yankees. Hands down.
He was a phenom with Seattle, but he started becoming the “Youngest player with X HR” in Texas, and he surely won’t be wearing the Arlington colors.
If it was today, which is the hypothetical, it goes to the Yankees. Most service time, better numbers.
And nobody booed him so vociferously until he became part of the family.
One more stat that tilts in favor of A-Rod wearing a Yankee cap:
MVP Awards as a Yankee: 2
MVP Awards as a Mariner: 0
He was robbed probably 3 times as a Mariner.
Perhaps.
http://www.baseball-reference......html#ALmvp
He finished second to Juan Gonzalez in 1996 and you could argue he deserved that one.
http://www.baseball-reference......html#ALmvp
He finished 9th in 1998, but I can’t give it to him over JuanGone, Griffey, Mo Vaughn, Manny, or Albert Belle (ZOMG!)
http://www.baseball-reference......html#ALmvp
Distant 15th in 1999. Didn’t deserve a top 10.
http://www.baseball-reference......html#ALmvp
Third behind Giambi and The Big Hurt in 2000. I agree with both of those over him. Giambi was on base an almost Bondsian 47% of the time. In all honesty, he should have finished 4th behind Delgado.
I’d say he got cheated out of 1 MVP in Seattle, his 20 year old 1996 campaign.
That is pretty crazy. The guy is a stud of a player.
The questionw as what if he retired today. Its hard to answer this question fairly because we have seen him in pinstripes so long, he just feels like a Yankee. (Whether he is a “True Yankee” or not is a question for Lupica/Francessa/NESPN to decide).
I think right now, he goes in as a Yankee. That contract he signed was such a monumental game changer in the world of professional sports, that I think it kind of obscures everything in his career that came before. Pre-250 Million Dollar Contract A-Rod doesn’t conjure as many images in the imagination as Post-250 Million Dollar Contract A-Rod. And he has spent the majority of his post 250 million dollar contract career with the Yanks.
Moreover, the Yanks are the biggest show in town. People remember great actors for the years on Broadway, not the shows they did while they were making a name for himself.
In the national consciousness: A-Rod = Yankee.
This image looks “weird” to me now.
http://www.sportable.com/wp-co.....o1_mid.jpg (safe)
ARod wears a Yankee cap. Parallel question: What do Griffey and Randy Johnson wear?
I say Mariners for GriffBones and Arizona D-Bags for the Large Unit. He had 10 years in Seattle vs. 8 in Arizona, but the Arizona eight was his prime years (4 straight CYs and the ring in 01).
Schilling? Phillies.
I agree on both counts–Griffey will wear a Seattle cap and Johnson will become the first man to wear a Diamondbacks cap in the Hall of Fame.
Schilling I don’t know. His three best seasons were 01, 02, and 04 (none with Philly), and he won a ring with Arizona and two with the Red Sox. I would say Boston
Agreed on Griffey and Unit (his numbers in Arizona were unreal) but I’m not as sure on Schilling. While he spent almost half of his career in Philly, I think that the Hall would put him in as a Red Sox considering the 2 championships he won there, and not to mention all the obsession with the bloody sock.
Though I still have bad, bad memories about how him and Randy dominated us in 2001..
Randy? Arizona, hands down
Jr? Seattle
Schilling? Boston. The bloody sox
Schilling was great for 3 seasons but he isn’t a lock for the HoF like those other guys
Schilling doesn’t belong in the HOF, but if he goes in it should be in a “38 pitches” commemorative cap, only $19.95 plus shipping and handling!
Meh, I think Curt and Moose are both Hall locks. But that’s me.
Regardless, Schilling and Moose are both >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jim Rice.
Erroneous! Erroneous!
I don’t have any facts to back that up, I just felt like saying it
Jim Rice = Hall of Famer
Curt Schilling = Hall of Fame blabbermouth
Mike Mussina = Hall of Fame Academian
If Jim Rice had played in Pittsburgh instead of Boston he wouldn’t have been “feared”. He would have just been “another one of those black guys”.
Refute THAT.
If Jim Rice had played in Pittsburgh instead of Boston he wouldn’t have been “feared”. He would have just been “another one of those black and yellow guys”.
what’s a worse stigma in that time period…black or pirate?
now begone, before i curse at you and kick you out of my office!
/geithner’d
I refute it!
At the time, he would have been feared no matter where he played because he was large, 6-2, 205, when that was large and not just the average size of a back up infielder, plus, he was one of the few hitters in the late seventies and early eighties who consistently hit for Power AND Average. He wasn’t the best at either, but there weren’t many doing both better.
He played in a difficult leftfield (following a defensive legend) and his throwing arm is vastly underrated because he spent 15 years playing accross the field from Dewey Evans who had a Howitzer growing out of his torso. Plus, he broke up brawls instead of starting them and he was always feared by reporters so I don’t think that would have changed in Pittsburgh.
He may have actually gotten a ring in 79 playing alongside Pops and Dave Parker, plus another MVP that year.
I think Schilling has a better shot than Moose… Or at least a better shot to get in earlier in his eligibility period. I think there’s a psychological effect on the voters when a guy has big years or moments late in his career, and I think Shilling gets a huge edge over Moose in that category. While we may look at both of their careers and conclude that Moose was better, I think the voters have a tougher time with it because Moose’s best years were early in his career and Schilling had some signature moments later in his career. Whatever, maybe the voters will be smarter than that and prove me wrong.
So in other words, Schilling has a better case because people are dumb.
Gotcha.
Precisely.
Ooooooh, guess who’s on the HoF ballot for the first time in two years?
http://pictopia.com/perl/get_i....._id=381549 (safe)
Better fielder than Mark Teixeira = HOF material
(shoots self in head)
His hair?
wow. that pic is like when kyle takes off his hat on southpark….dag yo.
Close but not quite. If only he was a day walker, then it’d be a slam dunk.
Heh, pretty close.
http://images.southparkstudios.....age_19.gif (SFW)
The Angels Uniform really threw me for a minute there.
Would you like to see the other uniforms he’s worn? How much time ya got?
If he retired right now with an equivalent number of games/ at bats he’d have to go in as a Mariner.
He’s close to the same hitter in terms of production. But he’s an entirely different player due to the change in position.
Mike’s on the mark. As a SS Alex wasn’t just great – he was historically great. He was making an argument for himself as one of the 3-5 best players of all time as a SS.
He was a better defensive SS than he’s been a defensive 3b. Part of that is age. But part of it is his degree of skill at the position related to experience.
If he retried today he should be remembered as a SS. That’s would be his great historical contribution to the game. That means he goes in as a mariner.
rangers. i keed i keed.
personally, I could care less what he’s wearing on his head. If there’s a big, gem crusted ring with an NY in the middle on his finger he could go ahead and wear a football helmet and clown shoes.
He could be headless if as long as we GET THAT RING.
Oh my. That probably wasn’t politically correct, was it.
I’ll issue my formal apology to A-Rod and his family later.
It would really help his case in going in as a Yankee if he won a ring or three in pinstripes.
Or five…or ten…
Hell, it would make his case ironclad if he won a ring every single year for the rest of his career then came back to the Yankees as a hittimg coach and kept winning.
then in his hall of fame induction speech he grabbed his crotch, flipped off the crowd and yelled CLUTCH THIS!!!
IETC
It would really help his case in going in as a Yankee if he won a ring or three in pinstripes.
Yeah, he totally needs to win some rings in the next couple of years to “help his case going in as a Yankee”, because he needs to offset all those rings he won in Seattle and Texas…
Wait, what?
Rings should have nothing to do with the conversation. They are a team accomplishment.
Exactly.
He can sit in the audience with Barry, Roger, Rafael, and Mark at Jeter’s induction ceremony. No cap necessary.
I dunno, the one test isn’t enough to discount his entire (rather amazing) career. Some of those guys you listed can’t make that argument, but A-Rod can.
The 2010 Ballot, with my vote indicated by what cap I think they should be wearing:
Returning candidates (with votes/percentage):
Andre Dawson (361, 67.0%)
Bert Blyleven (338, 62.7%) – Twins
Lee Smith (240, 44.5%)
Jack Morris (237, 44.0%)
Tim Raines (122, 22.6%) – Expos
Mark McGwire (118, 21.9%) – Athletics
Alan Trammell (94, 17.4%)
Dave Parker (81, 15.0%)
Don Mattingly (64, 11.9%)
Dale Murphy (62, 11.5%)
Harold Baines (32, 5.9%)
First timers:
Paul Abbott
Roberto Alomar – Blue Jays
Kevin Appier
Andy Ashby
Danny Bautista
Brian Boehringer
Darren Bragg
Dave Burba
Ellis Burks
Greg Colbrunn
Mike Fetters
Brook Fordyce
Andrés Galarraga
Karim Garcia – Yankees
Tom Goodwin
Ricky Gutierrez
Jimmy Haynes
Pat Hentgen
Sterling Hitchcock
Mike Jackson
Eric Karros
Ray Lankford
Barry Larkin – Reds
Curt Leskanic
Josias Manzanillo
Edgar Martinez – Mariners
Brent Mayne
Fred McGriff
Mark McLemore
Shane Reynolds
David Segui
Scott Service
Chris Stynes
Scott Sullivan
Todd Van Poppel
John Vander Wal
Robin Ventura
Fernando Viña
Turk Wendell
Todd Zeile
Question – How do people generally feel about baseball-reference.com’s HOF indicators? I really pay very little attention to HOF votes because the voters tend to be so, shall we say, ineffective… But I was randomly looking at Andre Dawson’s HOF indicators over at BR the other day and I was surprised by how decent he looks according to those numbers.
What about Brook Fordyce, who does he go in as?
An Andy Phillips impersonator.
http://www.instantrimshot.com
ill scratch up this year due to Rickey being on the same ballot but if Tim Raines only gets 22% next year it’ll be a damn shame.
i like how you slipped kairm garcia in there with the people who actually deserve to go in.
nicely done
I was wondering how long it would take someone to comment on that.
WHO IS KARIM GARCIA, ANYWAYS!?
Who is John Galt?
Just wondering why you wouldn’t induct Fred McGriff? He was essentially an average (26 fielding runs below average over 19 seasons) fielding first baseman a career line of .284/.377/.509 with an 134 OPS+ and 493 HR.
McGriff will probably never get in because he’s seven homers short of 500. Ridiculous.
Blyleven, McGriff… You love the longevity guys, huh. According to those b-ref/bill james indicators, McGriff falls short.
McGriff did have a hell of peak with 7 straight years of an OPS+ over 140 (including 2 at 166 and another 3 over 150) and another two seasons over 140 much later in his career.
Haha, I’ve not done nearly as much research on Crime Dog’s numbers as I have Blyleven’s, so maybe I’m missing something that would sway me against McGriff.
I just get pissy when people call Blyleven a compiler even though he was top ten in the league in a bunch of different categories for most of his career (K/9: 15/22; ERA: 10/22; IP: 11/22–led twice; K: 15/22–led once; K/BB: 16/22–led three times, WHIP: 11/22–led once).
I almost put McGriff in. Trammell, too.
They’re both thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiisclose to being good enough, IMO. McGriff’s like a modern Jim Rice: a solidly good-to-great player but not quite “one of the best ever” that belongs in the Hall.
Wait, what’s that you say? Jim Rice made the Hall? No, that can’t be right.
Blyleven better fucking get in next year. I’ll be heated (again) if he doesn’t. Pedro Gomez votes for Jay Bell but not Blyleven?
There’s a lot of insanity in HoF voting. Here’s all the votes I found for this year. In spreadsheet format, because I am a nerd who hates baseball, etc.
http://spreadsheets.google.com.....#038;hl=en
Murray Chass is one of my personal favorite ballots.
Can someone give me a REAL argument for Jack Morris aside from just that he was a “big game” pitcher?
Awesome porn ‘stache. Probably banged a lot of hot ’80s B-level Skinemax starlets, like Dona Speir and Sylvia Kristel.
Per Heyman’s ridiculousness:
He has the most wins of the 1980s.
He pitched more Opening Days as a starter than any pitcher in baseball history.
check out his HOF stats from baseball referance
Black Ink Batting – 68 (13), Average HOFer ? 27
Gray Ink Batting – 204 (37), Average HOFer ? 144
Hall of Fame Monitor Batting – 330 (10), Likely HOFer ? 100
Hall of Fame Standards Batting – 70 (13), Average HOFer ? 50
If you want a book that gives the best explanation of the Hall of Fame’s history and the way it functions try Bill James’ “The Politics of Glory”.
Schilling is not a hall of famer. Imop
Why not? As much we all hate the dude, he was a hell of a pitcher and should most likely be in the HOF.
He’s very borderline. He had an excellent peak, but he didn’t really have the sustained greatness you’d like to see. He had a real good year at 25, and then his next good season was age 28.
The post-season stuff could push him over the top, sure. But he’s on the edge, there.
Ditto. He’s not in the same class as Clemens, Maddux, Johnson, etc.. He’s close but far from a shoe-in…
Word, I go either way with Schilling. If he gets in, I’m cool with it but if he doesn’t, I wouldn’t be super-pissed off either.
What about Moose?
nope
not enough 20 win seasons…
Time will tell. Schill was great but he’s certainly not a lock for the HoF and I think too much weight is being put on his post-season performances.
Schill = certainly too much weight is being put on.
http://www.instantrimshot.com
Thanks man!
In addition to what other guys said, I think he was right around 250 career win shares or so, which is borderline for the Hall.
And 250 pounds, after a game, on a hot August day….
Right now, I’d say the Yankees, and given that he’d not retiring right now it will definitely be the Yankees.
What happened to ariod he used to be dominant now he is average? I thought we were supposed to have the next coming of manny-papi 2003-2007 I dont see it at all. I wonder what colonel Jacob Rupert would do if he were alive nd owned the Yankees. I bet he would do everything in his power to hav the Yankees dominate like they didi. Not accept mediocrity from the players-management. To bad he is not here now I hear he used to love the 21-0 scores. I wonder how committed this group is to that standard?
Awesomeness in so many ways. Seriously. Colonel Ruppert references? Best post ever.
but judging from mr yankee’s past, i don’t doubt that this was meant seriously.
Oh I know, that’s what makes it so awesome. To say all that, sarcastically, is kind of ho-hum around here. But to mean it? Pure awesome.
seriously. you just dont see those everyday
What…?
Take your pills and come back when you’ve calmed down.
Mr. Yankees’ comment got me thinking: Anyone else excited for a fun filled weekend of Red Sox trolls? That will be FAN-TASTIC!!!
I will try to be here as a Red Sox fan, not a troll, because I like discussing the games with many of you. As a Sox fan, a 5-5 split aganst the Yankees the rest of the way is fine with me. I’d prefer 6-4 or 7-3 in our favor, but I think that would just be greedy on my behalf.
I think its a legitimate point-This guy (Ruppert) had the Kansas City A’S as his personal farm team. How great is that? If jhe were paying someone 252 million and yo can try to compare that to 1920′s dollar and were getting the present performance. what do you think he would do? Would he have allowed this team not to improve itself at the trade deadline?
Ruppert died in 1939. The A’s moved to Kansas City in 1955.
Keep it coming though, you’re the man. Let’s have some more.
-Germans?
-Forget it, he’s on a roll.
My error I did say Ruppert meaning he-I should have said the precedent was set by Ruppert for that time of business model. Why is it so crazy to yearn for an owenership group that strives to completely dominate the sport-Why do people care what the payroll is its not our money I read the posts everyone saying dont spend the money and or prospects. What difference does it make how you win, you just win. I think if possible take the payroll to 300 million or 400 million. Pay for the finest scouts and place them all over the world so not one reservoir of talent is missed. Isn’t that what we expect as Yankees fans for the team to win every year? For someone to imply I am a Red Sox troll is like implying Jimmy Hoffa was a communist. I am only stating what the mission statement should be for any great organization. Does anyone think winning by whatever means neccesary witin the rules is wrong?
I don’t know where to begin.
Possibly with a semicolon and a line break.
Fine critique me for spelling and or grammar I am ok with that-am I wrong though? I don’t get why the presen ownership group has teh desire to be liked. If you think of any great dynasty at the height of their powers they were never liked. If you an advantage(money) you use it to defeat your opponet-I dont know about you gusy, I wold like to see the Yankees win every year.
You’re wrong because all of your diatribe is based around a faulty assumption: That they modern Yankees don’t dominate the league like they used to in the past because they some how don’t want to, aren’t willing to, or aren’t smart/savvy enough to.
The reason we no longer dominate the league like we used to is because it’s a whole assload HARDER to now. The league has narrowed the gap with us. The game has changed and no amount of will spent on our part can change it back.
Right, this. The Yanks do everything in their power to win. It’s just a different world, now. The rules, and the competition, are wholly different.
So there were not great players and or teams in the past-William’s Red Sox-Musial’s Cardinals, the brooklyn dodgersI am sure you know all about the great plyers that played at that time, The Yankees were able to beat those teams year in and year out?
mr yankee… You just don’t know or understand what you’re talking about here, for so many reasons. Here’s one: Did you know that prior to 1965 there was no amateur player draft? So teams just identified top talent and signed it, meaning the Yankees usually had their pick of the top players. It was a completely different game back then. You’re out of your depth.
[ facepalm ]
I give up. I just can’t fix a glaring lack of historical perspective like that. There’s not enough hours in the day.
you’re outta your element donnie.
…out of your depth?
i could see out of your league, or over your head, or even in too deep, but out of your depth?
http://www.englishclub.com/ref.....th_461.htm
mr yankee, you see right through me.
Hey as I said I am not concerned about being liked or popular in the chat room. I am a Yankee fan as much as anyone here and I am tired of reading how Cashman wants to trim the payroll, or dont trade this guy or that guy. Almost seems like he is ashamed of having the resources he does sometimes. If that is the case he should go be the general manager of Kansas City. I brought up Ruppert because his business type was probably similar to the green bay packers when Lombardi was coach. The team does not mind doing what it tkes to win but the players were supposed to deliver year in and yea out. Here I am saying would anyone here be embarrased if this tea was as dominant as they were in the early to mid 1900′s? and does it matter if you win with big name players or people you drafted. If you can afford to spend 400 some million in contracts in one off season then why stop there?
Ok… I’m going to disagree with you here… But I still love you. Just know that before I start.
“Almost seems like he is ashamed of having the resources he does sometimes. If that is the case he should go be the general manager of Kansas City.”
This seems to be the central theme of your argument, and it’s just false. I’m sorry. The Yankees do everything in their power to win as many games as they can. They try to sign the best players, trade for the best players, develop the best farm system, identify the best international free agents… I’m not sure you could find an area in which the Yankees don’t try to do as well as they can. Your entire point of view – your Yankees weltanschauung, if you will – is based on a fantasy.
BUT THEY DID TEH NOTHING AT THE TRADE DEADLINE!1!!11!!1! CASHMAN DIDNT EVEN TRY BECAUSE HE WAS ASHAMED!!1!!1!1!
regrdless of reason how do you feel about sergio mitre pitching important games down the stretch.
i feel they should obviously sign sidney ponson to pitch down the stretch.
I try not to think/feel things regardless of reason. Sorry.
Maybe that what cashman said to JP Riccardi-I gues we will know if I m wrong about 1030pm tonight
No. You are wrong now, no need to wait until 10:30. What does that comment even mean, dude? lol. What did Cashman say to JP? What’s the joke/point, there?
I seriously don’t know that anyone on RAB has been so wrong about so much in so little time as you. Ever. You’re kind of a marvel. Golf-clap to you, my good man.
Cause if and I hope not Hallday complete games the Yankees tonight, then how may people will be on here tomorrow saying we should havd made the deal, we should have made the deal. I kow if the Yanks win I will be on here saying I was worng and they won despite having to face Halladay.
Cause if and I hope not Hallday complete games the Yankees tonight, then how may people will be on here tomorrow saying we should havd made the deal, we should have made the deal.
Irrelevant.
So you will base your entire opinion of this situation on whether the Yankees defeat the Blue Jays on August 4th.
Sadly, that doesn’t surprise me about you.
Ok its possible the yankees will win the whole thing and that would be great but you have to take into account your chief competition, red sox angels tigers and possibly texas. The yankees have sucked against the angels-red sox-very good against the tigers and rangers. The tigers made a great move with washburn-so if you face the tigers you go up against Verlander-Jackson-Washburn. The yankees would have AJ-CC(hopefully the good cc) and Pettite I guess-because Joba will not be starting at that point. Explain to me again why not add a starting pitcher when you knwo that Joba is probably going to the pen and pettite has been ok at best? I use Halladay for example because he is a difference maker-I would have liked washburn to-
No. I can’t explain it to you. I ran out of patience.
I am not saying they dont try but let me give you an example. When they were discussing Roy Hallady we heard two issues here 1: the money and 2: the prospects. None of us knows what Toroonto asked for but there were stories out there that the cost of Halladay’s contract was to prohibitive. If that was the reason then I am confused-why would you spend as I said before 400 mill on fa’s then stop at another 15 million. Another example when the Yankees signed Mussina in 2000-a reporter asked is there anything left over for Ramirez? which Cashman said noo-why not? think about what this team would have been with Ramirez and MOOSE. In ters of prospects do we as fans tend to fall in love with these guys? becasue they are our guys and thus dont trade them. If you have a dominate cirle of scouts then you should be able to replace the prospects you may have had to give to get Halladay. I dont know about you but how would you feel about AJ-CC-Joba and Halladay going up against the sox. Now we have Pettite(sigh) and mitre(sigh) pitching this week and pettite has to face Jon Lester as well. Whats the point of losing today(if that happens) so you can maybe good in 5 years, if everyone pans out
http://www.thinkgeek.com/image.....it_mat.jpg
i’m still looking for the 400M on free agents…
cc 160 million tex 180 million and aj 82.5 million 422.5
The 2 historical precedents for this kind of decision are Winfield and Reggie so amount of time spent with a particular team is not as relevant as to what was accomplished during the time spent as a Yankee and how savvy the player is about the rest of his life. Reggie has parlayed his post-career relationship with the Yanks into maintaining his prominent public persona and as well as a meaningful position in the Yankee hierarchy. Winfield as “Mr. Padre” is a mere afterthought to Yankee fans and in baseball generally from all I can tell. IMO Arod’s model would be Reg more than Winfield.
Difference between reggie and arob-5 wc’s and clutch performances at a tenth of the price
Agreed as to diff between Reg and Arod but I was responding to how going into HOF as a Yankee and maintaining a good relationship with the Yanks post-career is a better way to go if a player had a choice and that’s how Arod would (and should) play it.
I agree but really does arod deserve to be in momument park with Mantle-Dimggio-Ruth and Gehrig if he cant delive one title? I hope he does but I would prefer he go in as a Ranger if he does not win a tile here
this is batshit insane
Well there is sort of a hierarchy in monument park for sure and only Jeter belongs in the quartet you mentioned but even if Arod doesn’t win a title if he ends up with 700+ HR he’ll deserve it as much as Mattingly deserves to be out there.
If Mattingly is out there I am fine with that I thought you had to be in the hall of fame to be in monument park, I might be wrong. The problem with AROD in monument park is that there will be the cloud over him about the PEDS and not winning a title. Would that not in a way sully the concept of monument park?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M.....ll_members
mantle and babe ruth used to use horse steroids. no shroud over them.
Ty Cobb stabbed a guy.
who was trying to rob him? and he is not in monument park is he?
priceless.
” I thought you had to be in the hall of fame to be in monument park, I might be wrong.”
You are wrong. Dude… Again… You have no idea what you’re talking about. It’s incredible that you seem to think you’re such an authority when you clearly have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. You’ve sure got some chutzpah, though. Good for you.
(Is this a troll or something? This person can’t be for real.)
I said I could be wrong-and I am not an authority and I submit most of you guys probably know a lot more than me in terms of Yankee history.Okay fine so I am wrong and your all right-so I guess your all satisfied when this team loses because they did the best they could. After 2004 did you say well they went down but they went down nobly?
Shit. You got me there.
Okay fine so I am wrong and your all right-so I guess your all satisfied when this team loses because they did the best they could.
mr yankee: 1
Strawman: 0
Seriously, Champ. Why don’t you stop talking for a while, maybe sit the next few plays out. I’ve never seen anyone jump to as many tenuous and ultimately incorrect conclusions this many instances in this short of a timespan.
You think you know way more about things than you actually know and you’re reading way too much false narrative into vagary, circumstance, nuance, and complexity.
My basic initial premise was to talk about how the Yankees under Jacob Ruppert were a ruthless winning at all costs machine-he established that model for the franchise and they became the damn Yankees-they won almost every year it seems for the better part of the 1900′s now you say no amateur draf was a reason they won so much, and your right. There was also no free agencey at that time. Now shift tho the free agencey era and transfer the ruppert era ownership model to today-would the Yankees sign every needed free agent regardless of cost to creat a monopoly of winning if needs be?
Now shift tho the free agencey era and transfer the ruppert era ownership model to today-would the Yankees sign every needed free agent regardless of cost to creat a monopoly of winning if needs be?
Yes. In order to replicate the Col. Ruppert Yankees today, we would need to have probably a 300M payroll, spend 30M in the draft every year going overslot to keep the pipelines stacked with prospects despite finishing last every year, and do the same in the IFA market.
And if we did that, there would be a salary cap and a rookie wage scale faster than you can say “David Stern”.
Those days are gone, brother.
Well it would be nice while it lasted though huh?
“My basic initial premise was to talk about how the Yankees under Jacob Ruppert were a ruthless winning at all costs machine-he established that model for the franchise and they became the damn Yankees-they won almost every year it seems for the better part of the 1900’s…”
But you don’t know anything about the Yankees under Colonel Ruppert. You seem to think he was more important, over a longer period of time, than he was. And you clearly know nothing about baseball in the first half of the 1900s, as evidenced by your lack of knowledge about Ruppert or the KC A’s, who you incorrectly referenced.
And the Yankees are still a “ruthless winning at all costs machine,” I don’t know why you think they’re not. They outspend every other organization by a long-shot. You seem to be living in some alternate-reality.
“now you say no amateur draf was a reason they won so much, and your right. “
Right. That’s ONE thing… Among MANY other MAJOR changes.
“There was also no free agencey at that time.”
Good point! Teams couldn’t go out and acquire their targets by simply flexing their financial muscles.
“Now shift tho the free agencey era and transfer the ruppert era ownership model to today-would the Yankees sign every needed free agent regardless of cost to creat a monopoly of winning if needs be?”
No. Damn it, you were so close to saying something that actually made sense with that free agency thing. I was pulling for you. It was like the beginning of that movie “Cliffhanger.” You just couldn’t hang on to the sanity long enough, you let her fall to a horrible, premature death. The most over-simplified answer I can give to this latest insanity? The advent of free agency has been a boon to large-market teams like the Yankees (AJ, CC and Tex ring a bell, buddy?). But the Yankees simply cannot sign every single one of the best players out there. They sign the guys they want by flexing their financial muscle, like you want them to. But they can’t sign everyone. There are only a certain number of roster slots per team, and the Yankees have a certain amount of money and, like it or not, you have to face reality at some point and realize that you just can’t go out and sign every player that might be attractive. And, you aren’t going to like this, but there are actually other teams out there trying to sign some players, too.
With that… I’m sorry, my friend, but I’m out of this conversation. Like TSJC said… You’re just way too far removed from reality for this to be worthwhile beyond being an entertaining little jaunt into the unfortunately and completely confused mind of a fellow Yankees fan.
He’ll retire a yankee. Infact it’s not really an arguement.
Think about it, it’s sorta like A-Rod and the yankee organization were meant to be together. Yankees are considered the “the bad guys” and what guy doesn’t represent that but A-Rod.
Seriously if ya think about, A-Rod and the yanks are a perfect match.
Teams that currently do not have a single player wearing their cap in the HoF:
Astros (Nolan has a Rangers cap)
Marlins
Diamondbacks
Rockies
Natinals (since they have abandoned the Expos legacy*)
Blue Jays
Rays
Angels (ten former players in, but all wearing other caps)
Mariners
Candidates to be the first soon:
Astros – Craig Biggio, Jeff Bagwell
Marlins – I’ll tell ya in a sec
Diamondbacks – Ol’ Long, Tall, and Ugly
Rockies – Larry Walker
Natinals – A uniform quality control expert
Blue Jays – Robbie Alomar
Rays – Fred McGriff? Not good enough. I got nothing. Wait patiently for Tim Beckham.
Angels – Jim Edmonds
Mariners – Ken Griffey, Edgar Martinez
The “I’ll tell ya in a sec”: I think Gary Sheffield should go in with a Marlins cap. Think about it, he played for 6 teams and made the ASG with all of them. He won a title with the Fish, and was probably the greatest non-Hanley player in the team’s history. Go for it, Sheff, rock the teal and black.
*-Not only to the Natinals basically never mention existing in Montreal, but Gary Carter, the only Expos HoF’er (who didn’t want to rock a Montreal cap in the Hall, he wanted to be a Met and they overruled him) and Rusty Staub, the two numbers the Expos retired… well, the Natinals un-retired them and put them back in circulation.
The Montreal Expos never existed. You heard that torpedo hit the hull, and I was never here.
You really think “Old catch and dive Edmonds” will make it in. I would hate that if it happened.
Yeah, I’m with you on this one. I don’t think Edmonds gets in.
I used to think “no” on Edmonds but I’m leaning more “yes” now. .905 OPS (132+) from a CF who was a good to great defender until age caught up with him. However, like I was with Raines (and possibly Trammell), I’d have to hear a nice convincing argument to sway me fully to one side.
Personally, no, I probably wouldn’t put him in.
But, Edmonds >>>>>>> Andre Dawson, so…
Dawson was surrounded by guys doing Cocaine and Edmonds was surrounded by guys doing Steroids. Therefore Dawson>>>>>>>>>>Edmonds.
I always find a way to defer to guys who played in the 70′s and 80′s, it’s just what I do. Why, you ask, because their uniforms had more bright colors. Bright colors have been proven to evoke feelings of joy and happiness. I like being joyful and happy, therefore Andre Dawson’s robin’s egg blue uni with red stripes beats Edmond’s vast array of gray and white uni’s.
It’s simple when you look at it logically.
Sincerely,
Corky Simpson
Well that took all the fun out it
he’s just not a bright colored uniform guy.
The colors help my mental images when I’m playing Strat-o-matic. Well, the colors and all the awesome looking afros!
http://weblogs.newsday.com/spo.....hair_3.jpg
How did you know I was thinking of Oscar Gamble
ietc
Yet Dawson fares better according to all 3 HOF indicators on b-ref (the 4th isn’t listed for Edmonds so I left it out).
It’s weird… I think Edmonds was better than Dawson, too. But those indicators don’t hate the Hawk.
Not only to the Natinals basically never mention existing in Montreal, but Gary Carter, the only Expos HoF’er (who didn’t want to rock a Montreal cap in the Hall, he wanted to be a Met and they overruled him) and Rusty Staub, the two numbers the Expos retired… well, the Natinals un-retired them and put them back in circulation.
As a former Montreal resident, this really depresses me. Actually, everything about the Expos depresses me. It’s a sad history. I still believe that Montreal could have supported a baseball team, if they’d given them a halfway decent place to play and tried a little more French-language marketing.
I think Edmonds if he ever was going to the HOF would be St.Louis no?
Yeah, he probably would. The post was more “Potential Hall candidates who could be the first to wear Cap X.”
Speaking of which, thank you for derailing the topic at hand. I must have missed the part in Mike’s final paragraph that opened the floor to debate the hall-worthiness of other players and the caps that they may or may not wear should they get in. So thank YOU tsjc for becoming the “I know this is off-topic, but…” guy.
Yeah, I went there. What are you going to do about it, Sparky?
boom. that just happened?
i’m ron burgundy?
Um… Isn’t this post about whether a guy is HOF-worthy, and, if so, which hat he would wear on his plaque? Am I losing my mind?
POST: ARod is a Hall of Famer that played for the M’s and Yanks. Which cap should he wear? Discuss.
MY “OFF-TOPIC” REPLY: I think he should wear a Yankees cap. Speaking of which cap ARod should wear, that got me thinking: what do you think about these other Hall of Famers and what caps they should wear?
versus
POST: ARod is a Hall of Famer that played for the M’s and Yanks. Which cap should he wear? Discuss.
SOMEONE ELSE’S “OFF-TOPIC” REPLY: Hey, apropos of nothing, don’t you think Joba should be in the bullpen/We should trade for Player X/I can’t believe David Ortiz took steroids/The Royals just cut Sidney Ponson/The Patriots are interested in Michael Vick.
Are they the same thing? I ask you.
tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a ridiculous upside has murdered RAB commenting history
Sincerely,
Jayson Stark
Touché.
The Sincerely, Corky Simpson post was easily a 10/10.
I’ll give this one a 4/10. Relevance factor was too high although in your own defense I didn’t do a great job of selling. I thought calling you Sparky was a nice touch, but it just wasn’t enough.
To wit:
http://riveraveblues.com/2009/.....ent-511255
POST: Working deep into counts has swings of advantage to first the hitter and then the pitcher.
SOMEONE ELSE’S “OFF-TOPIC” REPLY: Hey, apropos of nothing, Derek Jeter is pretty awesome and should win the MVP.
…nowhere does it say the Pats are interested in Vick. if you read that, they were lying. if someone told you, he read what that lying liar wrote yesterday.
‘specially cause vick’s going to the vikings…two perfect signs:
a) farvrer retired
b) minnesota’s motto is ‘F-You dogs!’
I think Brad Childress has the stones to piss off half his roster and shit on his quarterbacks to bring in future Hall of Famer, Wrangler Jeans Wonderboy, and local hero/villain-envied-from-afar Brett Favre.
He won’t stick his neck out and risk his job security for Federal-Charge-PR-Nightmare Mike Vick. (Particularly after everyone roasted him for hitching his wagon to Vick Lite).
Mr. TSJRU, I agree with ya on the PR hit that Vick would become for any team that gives
him that proverbial second chance that he so rightfully deserves (as NESPN shouts every minute about).
While, I will never forgive that man for what he did, the Vikings might be the best place for him because of how dangerous of a duo he and Peterson would be. Plus, that whole pathetic desperate plea for Farve to save them proves how little confidence they have in their inhouse solutions.
This team is on the verg of taking the next step and that ceiling will never come unless they fix their wretched QB problem. Mr. Dog Killer/ Torturer may be their only hope
The Angels don’t have anybody in the Hall either.
Carew and Ryan both went in with other teams.
You know its a slow newsday when Ian Kennedy’s rehab is the 2nd top story on espn’s baseball page
You know its a strange day when NESPN ever mentions any sightly postive Yankee story on their baseball page, Tony B
P.S. Who else would love to go to a game with Mr. Yankee? He
would annihilate that loser Mr. Met anyday
arod retire now and lets see what happens, yankee or mariner proberly neither.
Proberly!
[...] Alex Rodriguez now has played more for the Yankees than he did for the Mariners. River Ave. Blues offers a comparison of the slugger then and now. [...]
Back to the original question, Mr. Axisa… the answer is irrevelant because he wouldn’t get in at this moment. The hatred
{which is mostly unfair} against him would make it impossible for him to get inshrined in Cooperstown.
And only if he “proves” over the next 8 years that his somewhat tainted career is more legit than syringe-aided. I firmly believe he’ll do that just because the man has suffered for so long that some of the breaks will start going his way & the team will finally recapture their championship glory due to his performance.
I think he has 275 million reasons to be wearing a yankee hat into the HoF. As for monument Park, (putting PEDS Aside) there is no way it can’t have room for one of the best all round players to play the game, im also inclined to believe he will deliver a title in the next 9 years..maybe even this year. Now the question is where does TEX stand after his Yankee Contract expires? HoF? Monument Park?….
Mr. Beast, I’ll take a firm bet that Tex will end up in the
land where pinstripe legends go to retire but the HOF seems
unlikely. His glove is on par with Donnie and Tino, and it
seems he’s going to play the prime of his ever rising
borderline HOF career Still, all I care about with my players
is the Monument because you have to DO great things as a Yankee
to get in and thats all I care about. We have not SIGNED a free
agent like that in a long time.
Thats a good point as a yankee fan : Monument Park >>>>>>> HoF. I still have a hunch that he has a decent shot at cooperstown if he keeps up his career numbers.
It’s the Hall of FAME, not the Hall of Slightly Better Seasons. A-Rod was infamous in pinstripes both for better and worse. Not to mention 2 MVPs. He’d be a Yankee. Guaranteed.
What does Vlad Guerrero go in as?
Expo or Angel?