What is Damon going to find on the market?
ByJohnny Damon finds himself in quite a pickle this off-season. His preferred team, the Yankees, don’t want to overpay, and his agent, Scott Boras, has a reputation for getting teams to overpay. It’s led to a standoff where Boras doesn’t want to even hear the Yankees’ two-year offers. If the Yankees don’t raise their bid to three years, $39 million, it appears, Damon and Boras will seek that deal from another team. They tried to get some leverage today with a quote in the NY Post.
“I am going to start looking around. Teams are getting better and there are teams interested,” Damon told The Post yesterday. “I can’t wait forever and I am sure [the Yankees] are trying to figure things out. I have to be ready.”
This maneuver, however, might play into the Yankees’ hands. Damon can start looking around, but I don’t see a team that will come close to a three year offer, even for $30 million. Chances are, after looking around the rest of the league (as if they haven’t done that already), they’ll find that the Yankees offer the best situation. I’ve thought this all winter, and it’s why I think that Damon will eventually sign a two-year contract with the Yanks.
Three issues hurt Damon’s chances of signing with another team for more than the Yankees will offer. First is how his bat plays at Yankee Stadium. Perhaps Damon finds another team with a lefty-friendly stadium, but chances are it won’t be as friendly to him as Yankee Stadium. In other words, while the chances of him replicating his 2009 in 2010 are remote, even with the Yankees, the chances become even more remote with another team. This affects a team like the Giants, which has an outfield opening, but probably not for Damon.
The second issue is of available resources. In order to sign Damon, a team needs both money and a roster spot. The White Sox, for example, have been mentioned as a potential Damon suitor. With Alex Rios, Andruw Jones, Carlos Quentin, and now Juan Pierre in the fold, it doesn’t appear they have room for him on the roster, never mind the payroll. Texas, with ownership in transition, probably can’t afford Damon.
Finally, Damon’s defense has become a liability. This might not hurt him with an AL team, but it might make it tougher for an NL team to justify such a large contract. Perhaps the Cardinals would be interested if Matt Holliday signs elsewhere. Maybe the Brewers would be interested if they don’t think Corey Hart will bounce back. The Mets just plain need an outfielder, and could find Damon attractive. In all those situations, however, Damon would have to play the field almost every day. Is an NL team willing to take that risk, for three years no less?
Teams don’t always act predictably, and there’s a chance a team decides Damon is worth the three-year commitment. Chances are, however, that after exploring his options on other teams, Damon finds the best situation back in New York, with the Yankees, on terms resembling what the Yankees are currently offering.
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If Johnny can find a 3 year deal out there, good luck to him.
Exactly, he wont, and he’ll be back.
Yep. I’d rather not guarantee him three years. I’d prefer not to guarantee him two, but I’d be okay with it. Let him DH most days with Melky in left (until he proves he can’t handle it) and have him play LF on days when someone else needs a breather for DH. I’ll settle for that version of the rotating DH if I have to, but if the Yankees can get Damon and a cheap DH for 2010, I’d want them to bite the bullet with Damon in LF for the offensive improvement.
I’m starting to warm up a lot to Delgado. It seems that 2007 (.781 OPS) was the outlier, rather than the strong performances surrounding it. He’s coming off the hip injury, but strictly DHing could help to keep him healthy, like it did with Matsui this season. What’s it take to get him? $3-4MM, maybe go up to $6MM with incentives?
That’s pretty much my thought process on Damon and the DH/LF thing, but I think we’ve been on the same page for this since during the season.
As for Delgado, yeah, I wasn’t too hot on him, but after looking at his stats, and seeing how ARod/Utley/Lowell came back from hip surgery, it seems like not a bad play at all. As for the money, I think you may be light, just because of how strong he was right before the injury. I’d say $4-5M, with incentives up to $7-8M. He doesn’t have Matsui’s strong last year to bolster the contract, but he doesn’t have the same injury shadow that Matsui has with those knees…
I’m starting to think that he might actually find a 3 yr deal from some team. I just hope that team isn’t the Yankees.
The Mets are desperate. If the Cards can lock up Holliday, and someone else gets Bay, I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if they gave Damon FOUR years.
I think the Mets are almost a lock for Bay at this point – now that the RedSox are out of it, I haven’t really heard anybody else jumping into the fray (they say Mariners, but I don’t believe it at all)
Apparently the Mets are looking to get one Bay/Holliday.
It won’t be. There are too many alternatives out there. With a real DH, we can easily “get by” with Melky in LF.
I agree, as long as they bring in a legit DH. I’m not as sure as others on here that Delgado is that guy.
Even if they bring in a legit DH that fails, they can pick up another at or before the deadline. The market is flush with DH’s, and the trade market will be as well.
Probably true.
3/$39m is pretty funny for someone who’s been talking retirement for the last 3 years, even took off time from ST. I guess FA can change all of that. He’s a Boras client, pretty naive if anyone of us thought he’d sign quick or for a market-value deal.
If the Yankees don’t raise their bid to three years, $39 million, it appears, Damon and Boras will seek that deal from another team.
If he can get that, then I certainly hope he leaves, because I don’t want the Yanks with that contract.
If Johnny signs with the Giants we counter immediately by signing Bonds as our DH!! Just kidding but it would be ever so intriguing…
2 years ago….I’d probably have been on-board.
i am probably wrong, but i have a feeling that cashman is working on another big trade that will address our LF issue and the starting pitching at the same time
I can’t even name a team that’s got pitching and left field depth available to just trade.
possible 3 team deal ?
possible 3 team deal ?
possible 3 team deal ?
Ok ok we get it, 3 team deal.
Just kidding bro.
sorry, my computer/internet is messing up
I like that idea. I know there is a center fielder/catching prospect who could be packaged for a solid LF out there… just gotta find the right team… can anybody name a team that needs a young catcher and has a LFer? Carlos Lee? maybe a certain underperforming Alfonso Soriano? This is all just garbage with these suggestions, but you catch my drift…
KC with DeJesus would be nice fit.
Damon is nice, but he is soft. His entire persona and style of play… while he has some grit, just seems very soft. I think I would rather have Holliday (actually looking at next year’s FA class makes me think seriously about Holliday, as the only big name worth noting is Crawford…) than Damon, as the guy can play the field.
Damon is nice, but he is soft. His entire persona and style of play… while he has some grit, just seems very soft.
All of this: utterly irrelevant, borderline batshit insane
I wish it was parody.
It’s not a bad thought, but despite the rumors, I really believe we already completed a trade to address the LF issue. Granderson’s production replaces Damon’s and Melky’s defense will be a great improvement on Damon’s. As far as the market for Johnny Damon goes, who knows, there might be a few desperate teams floating around. I am confidant that the Yankees won’t back down and give in to the absurd demands from the player and agent though. He’s not worth the years or money. Look at last year’s Pettite deal for clues. Andy went from upwards of 16 mill (I think) to like 5 with incentives once fall turned to winter. We already blew Johnny Damon away with a big deal once, we are not going to do it again. It will be fun to watch him host WWE wrestling next week though. Here’s hoping for a run-in and a chairshot!
Oh and I know it’s off-topic, but pitching really is all that’s left for us to get. And Ben Sheets is the pitcher we should target.
I’m torn on Damon. At this point, I think all of the possible DH/LF options on the FA market come with risks attached… Damon’s getting older and isn’t a good fielder, Delgado’s coming off injury, Dye is aging and just not all that good, Nick Johnson is always injured and doesn’t hit for as much power as we’d like, etc. And, since they all come with some risk attached, I have a hard time getting excited about choosing the most expensive option of the lot. I think there’s some value in having a guy who can, once in a while, get out in LF and do the job (and who can play there in NL parks when there’s no DH), but I’m not sure it’s worth enough that I’d be happy about overpaying Damon when there are other bats on the market that would be cheaper. Of course some of this is based on my interest in seeing the Yanks sign Sheets and I think signing Damon might eliminate the possibility of a Sheets signing… But still, I just can’t get too excited about the Damon situation.
I actually hope the Yankees lowball him. He’s not worth Abreu money (I think that they would have been better off with Abreu than Damon, the only reason they ended up with Damon is ‘cuz of how the contracts worked out)
Maybe offer something like 2 years, $14 million? Maybe $16m? That’s slightly more than Matsui since there’s a remote possibility he can play the field a little. There’s no other suitors out there for him anyways, so I think if the Yankees float that out there, he may end up having to take it.
I would love those contracts, but I think those are low enough that it won’t happen. Matsui has knees that will be ticking time bombs for the rest of his career. Damon has his fair share of injuries due to his reckless (but awesome) playing style (especially when he was younger), but is no where near the injury risk. 2 for $18M would be good for me, I could go to $22, but that should be it.
Why offer that high, though. There has been literally no other rumors around Damon, other than from the Yankees. In part because all the GM’s are stealth negotiating all of a sudden, but I don’t think there is much demand for Johnny Damon, since he’s asking for contracts just a shade below Bay and Holliday for what is a pretty decent drop off in return. Unless he’s found some miracle fountain of youth (and that kind of thing gets you suspended for 50 games)
Realistically we have the Yankees, Giants, Mets, Mariners, Cardinals, with Holliday & Bay also likely signed by one of those teams.
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/.....zalez.html
If the Bosox make this trade, They instantly become Title contenders . Not saying they werent , but this would help there chances…..
Sorry for the off topic comment btw…
It’s still off-topic, still in violation of the guidelines. We don’t ask much. Please do not post off-topic.
I Apologize.
Sorry, wont happen again.
They already are title contenders, just like they were last year.
but by acquiring A-gon they may even be the Favorites
The amount of fear Yankees fans have of the Sox actually, gasp, improving their team and competing with the Yankees never ceases to amaze me.
It’s brutal.
Honestly. Did people expect the Sox to pack it in with Hermida and call it a winter? It’s ridiculous.
My sarcasm meeter has just exploded……..
Dont know about you buddy, but I dont think I am alone by fearing that lineup/pitching staff. EVen though the staff has allot of Question marks attached to it, I am still fearful of them none the less.
Chances are, this is just a guess now, that they are fearful of the team that just WON 103 GAMES AND THE WORLD SERIES.
Aren’t the Red Sox good (and fearful) every year though? Don’t we expect them to try and improve their team? The Sox are good, they are spending a ton of money, they are smart, they have a good farm system. This is not new.
Not disagreeing with you. But A-gon is a special kind of player. And hes still so young…
Also keep in mind, if they made the trade, they’d be going from Ellsbury to Hermida and Buchholz to Wakefield. Obviously, it would greatly improve them, but not across the board.
Buchholz hasnt proven anything yet. He could be great, But he is nowhere near great yet. And Jacoby is a stolen base machine who is over rated defensively. It would be a steal if the bosox pull this off
…Which is why I said they’d improve greatly. But I’d much rather have Wakefield and Hermida in than Buchholz and Ellsbury separate of Gonzalez.
This.
Oh sure, they’re a good team. I’m not saying people shouldn’t acknowledge that they’re a good team. It’s the constant freaking out about every little thing they do, and the measuring of every little thing they do against what the Yankees have done, that’s ridiculous. Every move the Sox make doesn’t have to be judged by whether it changes some imaginary ‘balance of power’ between the two teams.
Sure it does,
When A top 10 hitter joins your division it definatley disrupts the balance of power. I’m not saying the Yankees would have to counter the move in panic , but they for sure have to take it into consideration when it comes to making moves . Your kidding yourself if you think otherwise..
You’re not really responding to what I’m saying. I’m not saying the Yankees shouldn’t be aware of what their competitors are doing. You’re beating up straw-men.
They are our biggest competition. In the same division. We play them seemingly 50 times a year. Why wouldn’t we as fans measure every little thing they against what the Yanks do? And why would we as fans not judge every move to see how it affects the balance of power? That is the fun part to me.
As for freaking out about every move, I am with you there. That is ridiculous. The Sox are still like the little brother looking up at the older, more established big brother.
“Dont know about you buddy…”
Tangential Rant:
I’m not going to play this ‘I’m not your buddy, hoss’ game, but I just want to say… Whenever someone calls someone they disagree with “buddy” or “pal” or anything like that it’s like the badge of honor of a stupid comment. It’s a cheap and weak attempt to antagonize the other person, like conservatives calling the Democratic Party the Democrat Party, or other 5th grade level provocations/taunts. Really, if you’re going to call someone “buddy” or “pal” after they disagree with your comment you might as well replace your entire comment with “I take offense when someone disagrees with my comments and can’t react like an adult,” it’ll save us all a lot of time and be a more accurate representation of your POV.
/end tangential rant
Just because I disagree with you and am having an argument it doesn’t mean I’m antagonizing you.
If you take offense when somebody starts off a comment with “Dont know about you buddy…” It doesn’t mean a damn thing.
I’m kind of surprised you even commented on this and went this route altogether.
I clearly stipulated that it was a tangential rant, and I never said I took offense to you calling me “buddy.” Please be more careful to respond to the words that are actually on the page.
It wasn’t meant to apply only to you, people say things like that all the time. I just took the opportunity to rant against that stuff because I think it’s stupid and because you happened to do it in a response to me.
Sorry about that.
I was just defending myself.
“Sorry about that.”
Nothing to be sorry about, you’re free to disagree with my rant. I’m sure there are a lot more people (judging from how many people call other commenters things like “buddy”) who disagree with me than who agree with me on this one.
“I was just defending myself.”
Another tangential rant:
That’s another problem… You shouldn’t feel like you’re “defending yourself,” you’re defending the idea you wrote on the page. I mean this in general, too, not just saying this to you… People need to stop being so defensive whenever someone disagrees with them. Distance yourself from your idea and realize that you don’t ever have to defend yourself, you have to defend the idea you wrote on the page. It’s not personal.
(Ok, I’m done with the rants for the day. Sorry everyone.)
hey relax guymanbro
\mondesi bait’d
jsb… I will f*cking dismember you, chief.
(sigh of relief) Good bec your beginning to sound like my wife…lol
Must be frustrating being married to someone who is that much smarter than you, hoss.
Kind Sir,
That would be classified as an antagonizing jab.
dismemberment is the new xmas decoration, boss
I was under the exact same impression when you said “buddy.”
can you girls stop already!!
Stopped 40 minutes before you posted this comment, pal.
I don’t understand why it isn’t taken as a given. The Red Sox are one of the best run teams in baseball with solid talent evaluations and payroll consistently in the top 5 of baseball. They’re what makes part of being a Yankee fan so fun, they’re a worthy opponent. I’m never surprised by any big moves, or just shrewd ones, that they pull off, its to be expected.
Just a random thought, but I think some people want the Yanks and Sox to fit into this ‘we’re awesome and our FO is under-appreciated while they suck and their FO is over-appreciated’ narrative, so it kind of upsets them when the Sox actually make decent moves to improve their team and don’t comply with that narrative.
THCM, im guessing your not really a congressman, or a politician (i may be wrong), but you sound like you would make a good politician. I mean that as a compliment, because unlike most of our current politicians you sound very intelligent.
::blushes::
You’re not too shabby, yourself.
(I’m actually Eric Cantor. I just save my intelligence for baseball blogs instead of wasting it on my day job.)
(I’m actually Eric Cantor. I just save my intelligence for baseball blogs instead of wasting it on my day job.)
That would explain a lot.
Principally, it would explain why Eric Cantor is such an idiot at his day job. Save the mental bullets for the baseball talk. It all makes sense now.
Well, they better work hard if they want to beat the Champs!!!
I would be impressed if they pulled this off, moved Cameron to center and then signed Bay/Holliday.
Uh…isn’t this the key to the entire article:
The writers caution that a deal is “not close, and might not happen at all.”
/The cake is a lie
BUT TEH SUX MITE DO SUMTHING!!11!!!!
Can you guys can it with the off-topic conversation? I realize I’m a little late, but off-topic posts shouldn’t turn into off-topic threads. Repeat violators will lose commenting privileges for a bit.
My bad… I/we shouldn’t have responded.
Sorry
2 years, $19 million is the top offer I’d be willing.
Wouldn’t you give him 4/50 if it meant no Melky though?
No.
Not remotely. Damon probably deserves about a 1/10. I’m willing to slightly overpay him by giving him a 2/20. A 4/50 is ludicrous.
Melky’s not good, and I’d love to move him to the bench if possible, but I’m not going to give Damon 3 years and 40M more than he really deserves just to make that happen. That’s batshit insane, my friend. Melky’s not THAT bad, and even if he WAS that bad that’s still a DRASTIC overreaction that we shouldn’t do. Don’t cut off your nose to spite your face.
Furthermore, it’s moot. Adding Damon doesn’t bench Melky, it benches Gardner/Hoffmann/Miranda/Peña/Cervelli. That amalgam of guys are the ones currently in line for extended playing time who would be forced out of the everyday lineup when we add Damon (or some other LF/DH bat).
It takes Damon AND someone else to bench Melky.
I think Steve H was kidding around (check out the name of the commenter he responded to).
I realized that the second after I hit “Add Comment”.
What part of “2 years, $19 million is the top offer I’d be willing” doesn’t compute?
Considering you are on a budget with Damon, I assume you are with Bay and Holliday too, which is gonna make it extremely hard for the Yankees to live up to your name.
Correct, I don’t want Bay unless it’s for a short deal for much less money than he wants, as a DH and even then I probably wouldn’t want him. Holliday isn’t a complete no in my mind, but it would again have to be well under what he is reportedly commanding, so again no.
I’d be perfectly willing to give Gardner the full time job until he proves he can’t handle it. He’s added the same amount of value to the team as Melky in a much shorter tenure. He obviously has SSS concerns however, but Melky has a sizeable sample to say he’s pretty much replacement level.
2-19 ia already too much.
I would rather take his money and Swishers money and get someone that can hit and field well.
35 mil over 2 years should get us more then those two.
I still don’t get your aversion to Swisher. He’s relatively young, he’s under team control, and he’s a good producer.
/waits for low BA/strikeouts argument.
A lot of people seem willing to move Swisher who is relatively cheap and a good hard nose player who brings character to the Yankees…
I don’t get it.
Well, he did make two bad plays against the Sox in one week so he’s clearly not worth anything.
Totally, I can’t believe CC is still on the team after losing to the Red Sox that one time…
CC botched opening day game and the opening of YSIII. He should’ve been DFA’d right then and there, its not like he ever did anything good for the team after that.
I was at a party a couple of months ago, and there was this guy that said that the Yankees haven’t done anything after moving to the new stadium… He said it while the Yanks were playing the Angels in the ALCS. I thanked Mo I couldn’t find a rock nearby.
Yeah but he did that awesome running wall-jump that one time, and left marks on the padding from his cleats!
GRIT!
His batting stance is ugly. I can’t believe he manages to hit anything. It’s really wide open and leaned back, so if he’s not pulling the ball, he’s gotta take an awkward step towards the plate.
… come to think of it, it reminds me of a less twitchy Damon stance.
Sure it works, but it hurts my brain how he manages to get any bat speed.
Probably the most ridiculous reason to irrationally dislike a player.
Probably the most ridiculous reason to irrationally dislike a player.
http://images.broadwayworld.co.....277992.jpg (safe)
yeah but look who is saying it? are you not used to this by now from him?
My problem with Swisher is that he doesn’t help you in the tough games. He is the type of player you want to make it to the post season but he isn’t someone who is going to help you much once you get there because he does most of his productive hitting against bad pitchers and can be shut down by the good ones.
Furthermore, he hurts you as opposed to not helping in the tough games because you cannot hit and run or do other things that require he make contact and he doesn’t play the field well.
It’s great that he walks and I do understand that this has great value but walks are valuable as a complimentary skill. not so much when that is the skill you hang yout hat on.
And as for the argument that he has an affordable contract. I can think of a lot of guys I would rather pay 8+ mil per year for over the next two years.
Virtually every opinion you expressed in this post is incorrect and does not agree with the historical record.
Put up or shut up
Matt did it quite nicely below.
My problem with Swisher is that he doesn’t help you in the tough games
.270/.400/.551/.951 in high leverage situations in 2009.
He is the type of player you want to make it to the post season but he isn’t someone who is going to help you much once you get there because he does most of his productive hitting against bad pitchers and can be shut down by the good ones.
This is true of literally every player. The playoffs, on a year-to-year basis, are an incredibly small sample during which anything can happen. The more PAs a player gets in the playoffs, the more likely he is to hit like himself (see: Rodriguez, Alex). Swisher’s done poorly in the playoffs thus far, but it’s in less than 100 plate appearances. As that number climbs, I’d expect him to hit more like himself.
Furthermore, he hurts you as opposed to not helping in the tough games because you cannot hit and run or do other things that require he make contact and he doesn’t play the field well.
How often do the Yankees hit and run? Not a lot. You know why? Because they have a lot of power hitters who also happen to have very good plate discipline (Nick Swisher falls into this category), so forcing them to swing at bad pitches is, well, stupid. Swisher’s not a good contact hitter, I’ll readily admit that, but that doesn’t make him a bad hitter.
He also plays the field at an average to slightly above average level. Even watching him, w/o the advanced defense, can tell you this. He’s not going to make any spectacular plays, and it might not always look pretty, but he’s going to get to more balls than he won’t get to.
It’s great that he walks and I do understand that this has great value but walks are valuable as a complimentary skill. not so much when that is the skill you hang yout hat on.
It’s not what he hangs his hat on. He also hits for really good power, which is probably his best asset. As for walks being just a “complimentary skill,” I completely disagree. The most important thing a batter can do at the plate is not making an out. Nick Swisher’s a valuable hitter because he doesn’t make outs.
And as for the argument that he has an affordable contract. I can think of a lot of guys I would rather pay 8+ mil per year for over the next two years.
Nick Swisher never makes more than $9MM guaranteed (2011, $10.25MM option for 2012). That’s incredibly affordable.
High leverage situations are sort of like at bats against tough pitchers in a way but you have to see that this is two completely different stats.
Swisher does very well against weak bullpens in late and pressure situations but I am talking about the post season where you not only have the best teams but they also shorten the rotation to take out the best players and don’t put in the weak bullpen guys.
I don’t judge Swisher in the playoffs based on his playoff stats. I judge it based on him as a hitter overall and the fact that a really good pitcher most of the time. The only reason his stats even look acceptable is because of what he does against bad pitchers or in really good matchups.
You say every player is designed to get you to instead of through the playoffs and I think you might have missed my point. Some players can hit good pitches and some can’t. Swisher cannot hit good pitches and his entire offense depends on the pitcher walking him.
Are you saying that because we do not hit and run often that being able to make contact isn’t valuable? Being able to manufacture runs in a close game doesn’t matter but a slow baserunner getting on base with a walk is?
The only reason Swisher looks good in the field is because you have grown to accept Damon, Abreu and Williams.
He does not hit for really good power. We do not share a definition of “good power”
Incredibly affordable?
I think it is pointless to argue how good, bad or affordable he is because there isn’t an answer. The real issue is can he be replaced with a better player for less money and if you look at the strong points in his game and compare them with other options he doesn’t stack up.
I would have preferred Cameron for less money and there are dozens of other better options.
High leverage situations are sort of like at bats against tough pitchers in a way but you have to see that this is two completely different stats.
You know why players hit poorly against tough pitchers? Because they’re tough pitchers.
Swisher does very well against weak bullpens in late and pressure situations but I am talking about the post season where you not only have the best teams but they also shorten the rotation to take out the best players and don’t put in the weak bullpen guys.
And this could happen with anyone, not just Swisher. The playoffs represent a very small sample size.
Also, can you show me Swisher’s splits against “tough pitchers”? You’re pulling this stuff out of no where with nothing to back it up.
You say every player is designed to get you to instead of through the playoffs and I think you might have missed my point.
I never said that; please don’t put words in my mouth.
Swisher cannot hit good pitches and his entire offense depends on the pitcher walking him.
Where in the fuck are you getting this from? The same could be said about ANYONE. Why? Because it’s hard to hit good pitches.
Are you saying that because we do not hit and run often that being able to make contact isn’t valuable?
Nope; again, stop putting words in my mouth.
Being able to manufacture runs in a close game doesn’t matter but a slow baserunner getting on base with a walk is?
And that’s the third time you’ve put words in my mouth. And, yes, walking and getting on base is better than sacrifice bunting.
The only reason Swisher looks good in the field is because you have grown to accept Damon, Abreu and Williams.
Career UZR/150 in RF: 6.0.
Career UZR/150 in LF: 5.6.
Objective data.
He does not hit for really good power. We do not share a definition of “good power”
In a full season, Nick Swisher has never hit fewer than 22 home runs. In a full season, his Isolated Power has never been at a mark less than .191 (which was his worst season, average IsoP is around .150). That’s really good power. So, tell me, how does he not hit for really good power?
Incredibly affordable?
Nick Swisher has never failed to play above his salary, even in 2008.
and if you look at the strong points in his game and compare them with other options he doesn’t stack up.
Okay let’s see…
Swisher’s negatives: Not too fast, not a good contact hitter
Swisher’s positives: Good patience, good power, average to slightly better than that fielding, good clubhouse guy (even though that’s overrated, IMO)
I would have preferred Cameron for less money and there are dozens of other better options.
I wanted Mike Cameron, too, but it had nothing to do with Nick Swisher. Cameron would’ve played center or left, not right. Also, name me dozens of better options than Nick Swisher. Please.
Are you the one that was telling me Hudson was going to get a 4-40 contract a couple of years ago?
“weren’t you wrong about that thing that time and therefore anything you say now is irrelevant and also incorrect because of that other time you were incorrect, since, as Boethius might argue, right is good, and good is only all good, and therefore any wrong is all wrong and ungood and unchangeably wrong?” right?
(golf clap)
AND BAD DEFENSE!
YOU’RE WRONG!
Not bad for the average yankee fan these days but for those of us who have slightly higher standards average just isn’t good enough.
unless you get average for a discount that allows you to splurge elsewhere of course.
he’s an average defender and an above average hitter. he’s also our outfield’s prospective worst defender, which makes his averageness totally fine, and our lineup’s no. 8 hitter, which makes his above-average-ness totally awesome.
Abreu got 2 years $19 mil + option that vests. Damon most likely won’t take less than 2 years $19 mil. They’re extremely similar stat wise.
if a team let’s adam dunn play lf damon can play lf
The team that lets Adam Dunn play LF can’t get their jerseys right and has no chance of contending for a .500 record. The Yankees aren’t the Natinals.
damon will sign with the natinals for rf
has no chance of contending for a .500 record
I beg to differ.
Sincerely,
Jason Marquis
If a team has a budget with a payroll under $50 million, the Yankees can have a budget with a payroll under $50 million.
if a team lets adam dunn play lf damon can play lf
http://knowyourmeme.com/i/124/.....-wrong.jpg (safe)
fantastic. truly.
Adam Dunn in LF?
Someone has been playing too much fantasy baseball.
Someone has been playing too much fantasy baseball.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
http://knowyourmeme.com/i/124/.....-wrong.jpg
Sorry. Couldn’t help myself. But Bo’s statement was not, in fact, an ad hominem.
Sure it was.
He’s implying that jsbrendog’s opinion is not to be trusted because jsb is one of those “nerds” who does things like play fantasy baseball.
It’s one of SalBoGrantLanny’s themes. He ad hominems people like this constantly.
Well, there’s a fine line between an ad hominem (e.g., your argument is invalid because you’re an idiot) and an inductive inference from a bad argument to a character flaw (e.g., your argument is ridiculously invalid, and that is evidence you are an idiot).
Bo did not say that the conclusion is false because the commenter plays fantasy baseball but that the conclusion is such to provide evidence that the commenter plays fantasy baseball. In this case, that is probably an unwarranted inductive inference, but it is not technically an ad hominem.
Touché.
My retort: Bo wanted to make that into a proper ad hominem, but he’s to lazy to put forth the full effort.
nicely done
still wrong. Bo’s not dominican.
He played 62 games in left field last year.
Am I the only one worried about giving Damon even a 2 year deal? I realize he will probably never settle for a 1 year deal, but Posada is not getting any younger and he only caught 96 games this year.
I realize the Yankees want to bring him Damon back to play DH and LF, and maybe Damon’s defense does rebound next year, but shouldn’t the Yankees be leaving the majority of the DH at bats open for 2011 when Posada will be 39 and might not be able to catch that much anymore?
Logical. You need to find a new catcher fast in that scenario though, and the best option out there is… Bengie Molina. Maybe Yorvit Torrealba, if you’re a gamblin’ man.
Agree to a point but worst case scenario you have him on the bench for the 2nd year or trade him while paying most of his salary. The Yankees can afford that.
Right. I guess that could work.
And, frankly, even if Jesus H. Montero or some other individual is the fulltime catcher in 2011, and both Damon and Posada are DH’s, splitting the position between the two of them might not even be the worst thing in the world. They’re both old guys, they might need a lot of rest.
Valid concerns, but its tough to find a perfect scenario. I’d rather have both Damon and Po’s bats available, even if it means slightly overpaying in terms of overall WAR value on a 2/20 deal and the remainder of Po’s contract.
+1
Thats what the market bears.
If they really wanted to give him a 1 yr deal they would have offered arbitration like they should have.
Johnny Damon is pretty much the Bobby Abreu of 2009/2010 except with worse defense. It’s telling that no teams have been rumored to be interested in Damon since word about the Giants interest leaked out in mid-November, and even that was shot down. The Yanks seem to be the only team even willing to give Damon a shot, and in the end, they’ll probably outbid themselves for his services.
Damon is also worse offensively than Abreu. There was less concern about Abreu leaving YSII, there will be huge concern for a team signing Damon and not playing half his games in YSIII.
So where do you stand? Do you prefer Damon, or one of the available DH options? The way I see it, Damon’s advantage is that he can play the field every once in a while, but the other options are probably cheaper and might be better hitters than Damon. I lean towards the latter option.
Would you be willing to try and go for both if it meant no pursuit of Ben Sheets?
Yeah, I think so. I really like Sheets this offseason, but I don’t think I like him enough that I’d pass up on a lineup with both Damon and a Delgado/Johnson type when the rotation would still be strong 1-5.
Actually… I don’t f*cking know. The flip-side is that I actually don’t mind entering the season with Melky/Gardner in LF as long as there’s another good bat in the DH slot, so maybe I’d prefer Sheets + DH to Damon + DH. I’m so confused by this offseason, I should just take a time-out for a while.
Yeah, this offseason is absolutely nuts. I think I may go with the former–Damon+DH w/o Sheets.
Now that I’m thinking about it I think I go with Sheets+DH. The advantage of getting Sheets into that rotation, and the depth it provides, is just so huge. This second bat is really kind of a luxury for this team… Sheets is, too, in a sense, but I think adding an arm like his to the rotation, a guy who could be the #2 if he’s healthy, is more of a value-add than adding another bat to an already hella-loaded lineup.
The next flip-side to be considered is that Sheets is coming off injury, but I assume, if the Yankees sign him, that they will have looked him over and decided he’s healthy.
Another question: who goes to the bullpen if Sheets is signed – Joba or Hughes?
Note: Bulldog mentalities must be factored in.
I’m tempted to say neither, at least on Opening Day… I think there’s another option, and that option is that one of them, probably Hughes, stays in AAA for a month or two to keep his innings down and serve as the 6th MLB starter if needed (h/t to TSJC who has been pushing this idea for a long time).
As far as the rest of the season… Who knows. That’s a problem I’d like to have and one that I think would work itself out naturally anyway. Someone will get hurt, someone will get traded, something will happen that will necessitate using many more than just 5 starters in the MLB rotation in 2010. They’d all get their starts.
This
I forgot about the “Hughes rules” – signing Sheets allows for the luxury of starting Hughes at AAA – AND keeping him ready if/when one of the top 5 guys goes to the DL for a bit.
With Sheets, the pitching depth is downright impressive
6. Hughes
7. Gaudin
8. Mitre
9. Aceves
with ZMac and Nova for additional depth
As Mondesi said, that should be the chosen solution.
If Sheets is added, Hughes goes to Scranton and waits.
I have a gnawing fear that that will not be what happens, though.
Yeah, you know that wouldn’t happen.
Delgado + Sheets seems comparable to Duchsherer + Damon
If Damon insists on 3 years, I might prefer the first option – even if it means Melky in left. Under that scenario, I wouldn’t mind Kelly Johnson in the mix in left.
How r Delgado and Sheets comparable to any combo with Damon included?
Damon blows anyone offensively out of the water that is on the market right now.
Johnny Damon, 2007-2009:
.285/.364/.449 (114+)
Carlos Delgado, 2007-2009:
.267/.347/.488 (117+)
Jim Thome, 2007-2009:
.256/.380/.517 (130+)
Nick Johnson, 2008-2009 (missed the 2007 season):
.277/.424/.410 (122+)
Damon most certainly does NOT blow anyone offensively out of the water. Of those four options, he’s the LEAST productive hitter.
in conclusion, do not mess with tommie. he will be right, you will be wrong. you will be embarrassed.
Damon + Sheets = Optimal but not likely
Delgado + Sheets = 2nd best choice, more financially viable
Damon + Delgado = 3rd best
Damon alone = 4th best (maybe 5th?)
Sheets alone = 5th best (maybe 4th?)
Delgado alone = 6th best, not likely
Holliday for LF on a 5 yr 90-100 mill deal… better than all those choices
Right on, you’re preaching to the choir my friend.
no. by the end of that contract holliday will be the equivalent of Damon in LF, add’s superfluous offense to a team that has absolutely no need for him right now (if we get a solid DH like Delgado), pushes us quite a bit over budget without fixing the actual needs – DH and SP depth, both of which are solvable, and, financially, only solvable, by NOT signing Holliday.
I really like the idea of Carlos Delgado, if healthy, in Yankee Stadium. The Yanks, however, can’t really put Melky in left field. They can hide his bat in center, but in left, he’s a big offensively liability. So what do you do with left?
If they sign Delgado, and their lineup looks something like Jeter-Damon-Tex-ARod-Delgado-Posada-Cano-Swisher-Melky, I don’t see any problem with having Melky in LF. The rest of the lineup easily makes up for his bat not being a prototypical corner OF bat.
You forgot Curtis Granderson.
Shit, I meant Grandy instead of Damon. My bad.
I think they can hide his bat there if they have a big DH bat to back it up. I’m not a fan of having Melky start in left, but it wouldn’t be too awful if the right players were around him. Granderson, for example, can hit like a left fielder while playing center. Like in the late ’90′s the Yankees can make up for a below average hitting LF with a big hitting CF. Also, if they have a steady DH–Damon, Delgado, Thome, Johnson, etc.–it can help make up for Melky at the plate as well.
I disagree with that sentiment. The idea that you want a certain type of bat in LF is important and relevant if you’re starting a team from scratch, since there are more good bats in LF than there are at some other positions, like SS/2B/C, but with regard to this particular team, as currently constructed, I think the idea that you need a big bat in LF is moot. If Cano’s bat were in LF and Gardbrera’s production was coming from 2B, would you still have a problem with it? This team gets a ton of production from other positions, like CF, 2B, SS and C, which allows them to carry what might not be the prototypical LF bat.
I’m also intrigued by Delgado in YS3. If healthy, the guy’d hit over 35 homers in his sleep.
Yepp. We’ve been over it ad nauseum.
By no means does that mean we shouldn’t improve our LFer if the opportunity is there, but acting like we need to hide our 9 hitter makes no sense to me.
+ a lot on C-Del
I disagree with this. The only reason a LF is supposed to have a better bat than the CF is because it is a less demanding position defensively, so a big-bat player won’t hurt his team if he can’t play D well, whereas a big-bat, no-d CF would end up probably being a net value of zilch to his team. However, having a big bat, good D centerfielder alleviates the pressure to have a big bat in LF. Melky has proven he can be a well-above average defensive left-fielder, and while his bat is well below ML-average for LF, it is roughly ML average overall, and, being that he’d be our #9 hitter again, this is not exactly an intolerable situation. Our lineup would still be centered around Granderson replacing Damon in left, except playing center, and melky staying in center, except moving to left. Thus the team improves vastly defensively (huge upgrade from melky to granderson, huge upgrade from Damon to Melky) and stays roughly the same offensively (slight downgrade/potential upgrade from damon to granderson, melky=melky/could improve as well).
Melky in LF would be the yanks’ sole below-average-offensively-for-his-position player. The extraordinary strength of the yankees offense could allow them to have a 100 OPS+ guy in LF, considering the probable +5-+10 UZR he’d give you. In that scenario, a healthy delgado, who, as a lefty, would be helped by YSIII and DHing, would give the yankees this freedom, and also give them a very strong outfield defense without a significant offensive downgrade from last year. Melky’s WAR in LF would be minimal, but applied to team-specific contexts, WAR shouldn’t include positional value. Melky in LF and Granderson in CF is an improvement over Damon in LF and Melky in CF, because the defense upgrades at both position, and the net offensive contribution remains the same.
The Yanks, however, can’t really put Melky in left field. They can hide his bat in center, but in left, he’s a big offensively liability.
(thinks for a second)
No, I don’t give a shit.
So what do you do with left?
Put Melky there. If the other 8/9ths of our lineup is:
C-Posada 1B-Tex 2B-Cano SS-Jeter 3B-ARod CF-Granderson RF-Swisher DH-Damon/Delgado
… then there’s nothing wrong with having Melky’s subpar bat in LF. As long as he contributes defensive value, we’ll be fine.
this is just so much better and more concise than what i said right before it. thank you tommie, you’re like a miniature buddha, covered in hair.
this is just so much better and more concise than what i said right before it.
Thank you. My secret ingredient? Profanity.
ohhhh cool. mine’s cumin.
props to anyone who gets that reference to the greatest show in the history of humanity (hint: it was cancelled after one season and replaced by mind of mencia, in one of history’s greatest travesties).
This.
I hope you’re right about the non interest and if so, I hope Cash stays the course.
in reality, damon is not worse defensively than abreu, other than in terms of his arm. His UZR is worse because the competition for LF defense is higher than abeu’s in RF, and RF is also an easier defensive position. Abreu in LF would probably have a much lower UZR than damon, I would think.
His UZR is worse because the competition for LF defense is higher than abreu’s in RF, and RF is also an easier defensive position.
That’s exactly backwards.
There is a better level of competition in RF than in LF, and RF is the harder position to play than LF. If a team has one good corner outfielder and one bad one, the good one almost invariably plays RF and the bad one plays LF. There’s a reason there’s so many great hitting leftfielders in history; those great hitters were generally poor fielders and you hide a great hitting/poor fielding guy in either LF, 1B, or DH.
RF is harder defensively. Better defenders thus play there.
huh. you sure about that? it seems like (in YSIII anyway, and really anywhere besides fenway) LF is bigger and therefore requires more range than RF. Sure, the ball spins weirder in RF, but you get used to that. I always remember RF being easier to play than LF, just because it was smaller, in HS.
I more or less agree. I really hope Johnny doesn’t go to the Giants for his own sake, at this stage is not built for the NL or for their stadium.
I wouldn’t say he has worse defense. Abreu’s defense in 2008 was an otherworldly kind of bad. Damon’s is simply bad.
I agree that if we offer 2 years totaling 19/20mil there shouldn’t be too many teams that would want to trump that.
If Damon does go elsewhere I sure hope Nick Johnson is still on the market. Boras is such a pain in the roal ass though I bet Damon could be the last man standing.
One other thing that would help is to get Sheets on board first so we could have a feel for how much is left in the budget.
For all of my confusion and hemming and hawing this offseason… When it comes to the free agent market (so, not considering possible trades), I think I want to forget Damon and go after Sheets plus either Delgado or Nick Johnson and call it an offseason as far as big-ticket acquisitions.
Just thought I’d get that on the record, even though I’ve basically been saying it in some form for a while now.
PS: Part of why I feel this way is that I’ve come around a bit on Melky/Gardner holding down an OF spot on this team, since they’re so strong elsewhere. I don’t think either of them could do it on their own, but together I think they present a decent option since they’re good fielders and they’re the number 9 hitter in the lineup, and they’re both young. And, hell, they both had a wRC+ over 100 in 2009. I’m not hopping on the Melky bandwagon (or the Gardner bandwagon) or anything, but I think he’s shown he can be at least a semi-regular player on this team.
Agreed 100%. Sheets, if he pans out, is an ace. Damon can be replicated, Sheets cannot. J-Dukes, if he pans out is what our 4th, 5th, or 6th best starter? Not worth (temporarily) moving Joba/Hughes to the pen. Sheets on the other hand, if he works out, is the 2nd best starter on the team, and there is no one else on the market like him.
Yeah, I go back and forth myself.
Damon has the nice advantage of being able to play LF on occasion, giving us great flexibility. The downside of Damon is that he’s more expensive and will demand a two year commitment. That second year may bite us in the ass if his decline sets in, or if we need to move Posada to fulltime DH next year and have two players for one position.
Delgado and Thome, on the other hand, are probably better hitters than Damon, and they’re both cheaper and shorter contracts. They have age/injury risks, though.
Nick Johnson still appeals to me the least, because amongst Delgado/Thome/Johnson, he’s the biggest recurring injury risk, and the most likely to garner a two-year offer from someone.
It’s a tough call. Lots of potential pitfalls. Lots of different ways for the decision to turn out badly.
If Nick Johnson accepts a one year deal – unlikely but just for arguments sake – I would very much like to see him signed. His OBP ability is just too tempting to pass up. He’d make a solid hitter to put in the #2 spot.
Plus Po/A-Rod will need their DH days. You could keep NJ fresh all season without it interfering with the plans already set for the team.
Agreed.
If Johnson will take a one year deal, then my reservations about him are basically eliminated. I’d be on board.
Agreed, except on Johnson… I’ve been looking at wRC+ since the post about it (I think Joe wrote it?), and that metric kind of loves Nick Johnson. I have a soft spot for him since he came up through the system and I love his OBP skills, so I know I’m pulling for him a bit… But I really think he’s a pretty good option for this team if he can be had on a 2-year contract. That guy doesn’t know how to not get on base, he’s ridiculous. I also think his power would see a bit of a surge… He’ll get over his wrist injury, he’ll be moving into lefty-heaven in YS3, and he’s at the prime power age of his career (early 30s).
Johnson wRC+
2005: 139
2006: 152
2007: -
2008: 129
2009: 130
With that kind of talent, the guy’s attractive. Add to that the fact that he wouldn’t have to play the field much and he’d get plenty of rest even as the DH, and I think the guy could be very productive for this team. I think he’s possibly the biggest upside play on the FA market. He’s probably not as good a hitter as Sheets is a pitcher, but he’s kind of in that kind of class of upside guys… He’s got, dare I say, ridiculous upside.
I agree.
My reservation is 95% about the contract length. If Nick the Stick will take a one year deal, I’m on board. If not, I don’t like him nearly as much.
The man reason is, he’d be locked into DH, and we will likely need the 2011 DH spot for Jorge. That’s a big factor in the decision making.
I’m more willing to give Damon a two year deal than Nick Johnson, because at least we could stick Damon in LF next year if need be. He sucks, but he can actually play the position. Nick can’t play anywhere else but 1B.
Eh, we just see this stuff a little differently. I don’t want Damon in LF, regularly, ever again. So if he signs for 2 years, I’m signing him as the DH and occasional (read: less than 20 games per year) left fielder. To me, the difference between Damon and Johnson is that Damon is probably a bit more reliable and fits nicely into the 2 spot in the lineup like in 2009, while Johnson has the higher upside and will probably cost less (and could also slot nicely in to the 2 spot in the lineup). The combination of the higher upside bat and the cost-effectiveness, possibly allowing you to go out and sign another useful player (cough Sheets cough), is very attractive to me. So, I think I’m more willing to give the 2 year deal to Johnson than Damon.
Everything I just wrote assumes a 2 year contract for either player, which I think is, at the very least, reasonably possible right now, given what we know.
Although… Now I’m thinking that I’m probably overreacting to Damon’s defensive deficiencies, which might change my equation a bit. Eh, I’ll stick with what I wrote above in this comment… For this year, I don’t think I have much of a problem with Damon getting more than 20 games in LF, but in 2011 I think he’s probably DH-only material. His defensive decline has been precipitous, to say the least.
PS: Nick Johnson, thanks to his injury history, is a guy who probably expects to play in about 140 games a season. If, in 2011, the Yanks need to DH Posada much more, I don’t think having Johnson on the roster precludes them from doing that. They’ll just eat into a bit more of his playing time, but it’s not like the guy is going to be penciled in for 160 games. I think Damon probably expects to play more games per year than Johnson.
Agreed. Sheets + league average DH makes a ton of sense.
Delgado???
Uggh. Why?
Its not like hes coming off a major injury or anything.
A-Rod was coming off a majory injury in 2009. Remember that?
Because:
1. I assume the Yanks wouldn’t sign him unless they were confident he could hold up well enough as the DH on this team in something like 130-140 games.
2. If he is healthy enough to play in those 130-140 games, the guy’d probably hit 30-35 HRs if he could play half his games in YS3.
3. He’s probably going to be relatively cheap.
Are you kidding? Delgado is a few years removed from being one of the games best hitters, and is coming off an injury that we’ve seen a lot of guys recover nicely from and not a lot of guys have too much trouble with returning from. Furthermore, he’s a power-hitting lefty with good on-base skills and, at DH, shouldn’t have too much trouble staying healthy if he is already. Considering that any contract would be pending a physical, which is not some arbitrary paperwork like in most jobs, but is, in sports, actually a legitimate test of an athlete’s current physical status, I think he could prove to be WELL worth the likely $5-8 mil, one year deal that we could probably get him on.
It’s been said before, but a healthy delgado could crank out 35 hrs in yankee stadium. Granderson could also probably do that. And we know that Tex and A-Rod could. That would potentially give the yankees four 35 HR hitters, two 25 HR hitters (cano and swisher), one 20 HR hitter (posada), one 15+ HR hitter (Jetes), and one 10+ guy (melky). In other words, like last year, they’d get 7 guys in the lineup with 20+, 8 (very possibly 9) with 15+, and a full lineup with 10+. Except this time, 4 of those guys would be deffinitely over 30, with a solid shot at 35. Oh and a healthy a-rod gives you a solid 45. Oh. My. God.
That’s why you’d get Delgado. Not to mention his bat would allow you to put melky in LF, which would give the team an outfield with a composite UZR of around +15, about a 30 run (3 win) swing from last year, if i’m not mistaken.
This has 2 yr deal with mutual option written all over it. They need each other. He likes NY. They got the most money. Hes perfect for the stadium and the lineup.
They can do the rotating DH thing that they are obsessed with doing it seems and have him play LF 100x. They can have Posada DH and rest all the regulars while also giving Miranda at bats.
“You can turn left, you can turn right, you can look up and down and you’ve got a DH sitting right there begging for a job,” Cashman said last week. “The DH market, you’ve got opportunity there. You should be able to take advantage of that if you’re a club.”
That doesn’t sound like someone “obsessed” with a rotating DH…
As I listen to Mike Cameron’s press conference (/sheds a tear), if he only got 2/15.5, what is Damon likely to get from a non YSIII team? His market really can’t be that much larger than Cammy’s was, as Damon had severe splits last year and of course the terrible D. If Cammy is a 2/15.5 guy, Damon can’t be much higher.
Power is slightly overvalued in the market. Defense is considerably undervalued in the market.
That’s why Jason Bay is about to get a contract from the Mets that will be 4 times bigger than Cameron’s, despite being an inferior player.
Moneyballs, yo.
Melky in CF fulltime is fine.
Melky in LF fulltime isn’t.
Let him embrace his 4th OF role or trade him now while his value is high.
He shouldn’t be a fulltime LF. He doesnt hit enough to be a corner OF.
Ok, then put him in CF and Grandy in LF……
It’s the same OF no matter how you look at it.
except grandy’s better in CF than melky, so the proper way to do it would be to put Melky in center and grandy in left, then switch the two, except still call where melky is now playing center and where grandy is now playing left, because it is very important that intrasquad defensive movements still bear positional offensive equivalencies in mind, since the lineup looks drastically different based on what letters follow the same two players’ names.
::golf clap::
Well done.
It’s the same OF no matter how you look at it.
Pretty much, yeah.
There’s a correct way to do it for maximum defensive efficiency, of course, but SalBoGrantLanny’s idea that we can’t have Melky’s CF-level bat in LF is wrong, because the negative that creates is totally offset by the corresponding positive of having Granderson’s LF-level bat in CF.
It’s a wash.
SalBoGrantLanny, you’re wrong as usual.
cyber-five!
nice. same time next week?
I dont get this argument. if Granderson was in LF and Melky was in CF it would be acceptable, but Granderson in CF and Melky in LF is not?
He doesn’t hit enough relative to his defensive value to be on a contending team.
unless that contending team has 8 other fucking sweet hitters and the hitter you’re talking about would give you well-above average defense at his position while providing league average offense from the (much more significant than his position his considering team-specific context) 9-hole. in which case, it’s totally ok
Didn’t he just win a World Series as a starter. Did Melky hit on your sister or something? You are more irrational than BoSalGrant with your Melky rants.
What is irrational about wanting a better player than Melky starting in his spot?
Do you have an infatuation with complacency and replacement level players starting on your favorite baseball team? I’d assume not, because that’s irrational.
I have said from the beginning that if Melky is a starter on this team, it doesn’t end all hope. In fact, it doesn’t make us any worse.
But I believe that there is room for improvement and I want to see the maximum potential of the team realized.
I enjoyed 1998-2000 and I’d assume you did too, so why not upgrade if it’s feasible and worth the cost(s)to bring that hope one step closer to reality?
Furthermore, if you want to attack me personally by comparing me to a troll, fine. That’s your perogative. But have the decency as a human being to attack the argument as well so that a real discussion can be had.
He doesn’t hit enough relative to his defensive value to be on a contending team.
Agreed. However, he’s eminently tolerable because he’s cheap and provides defensive value, and because his shortcomings are easily masked by the fact that we’re packed to the gills with other players who hit FAR MORE than their defensive values at positions usually bereft of offensive production (i.e. CF, 2B, SS, C).
The Yankees never even contested those offers to Matsui and Cameron and if they were tied down by budget constraints, they would gobble up those cost-effective options in a NY second – but they didn’t. Why? Because they have bigger plans….
Matt Holliday. 5yrs, 90 million.
i really have a hunch tha Holliday will be a Yankee…
maybe for 4-5 @ 80-90 million… he’s 1st choice is the yankees..
i doubt that crawford will be available next year… (he might sign an extension)
His first choice is whoever pays him the most.
The Yankees never even contested those offers to Matsui and Cameron
That’s baseless speculation and almost assuredly false.
We were, in all conceivable likelihoods, given chances to match and declined because either the prices or contract lengths were more than we were willing to take those players at. We didn’t like Matsui at more than 1/6.5, and we didn’t like Cameron at more than 2/15.5.
I think Mr Cashman is working harder to earn his pay this off-season then last year. Last year, with the big name guys (and budget room) it was easier to decide on players, i think. Me personally, i would offer Damon 2 years maximum at 20 million tops.
Cashman should try this..
KC ROYALS ( i heard they like Gardner)
Gardner + 3 prospects
for
DeJesus and Meche
LF and SP
problem solve
And budget blown on 2 players who aren’t that good.
DeJesus and Meche… problem solve
Adding Gil Meche does not “solve” a problem. It creates one. The problem it creates is “What the fuck are we going to do with this horrible POS Gil Meche?”
No.
1year-11 mill-2nd and 3rd(LOL)-club option with a 3 million buy out-You call a 3 year deal but its really a 1 year deal. He is guaranteed 14 million.
Jeter in LF-2011
Good luck with that shit.
Jeter in LF-2011
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDnXkFVEQ0Y (safe)
I believe they will re-sign Damon for 2+1 @ 11mm per, and sign Dye as the DH for 5mm plus incentives. They will not add to their pitching at this point, and will allow Mitre/Gaudin/Hughes fight for the 5th spot, especially since the Yanks will likely not need a true 5th starter until May.
I personally do not see Cash risking more on Sheets who hasn’t pitched than he will have given Pettitte, both because of fiscal issues and personality issues, so I think its likely a Washburn-type is all which could be expected. since I don’t believe the money spent on Washburn etc. will provide much more of a benefit than would Mitre/Gaudin/Hughes, Im inclined to think the Yanks will stand pat.
Dye gets 400 AB’s, and Damon/Posada/Arod etc get to DH every now and then – plus, if Swisher shits the bed or gets hurt for a week or two, Dye can at least stand out there and catch something hit right at him for a few games and not kill the team.
Nice RH power bat who will not expect too much, and whose numbers only slipped at the end of the year.
He is a better fit than Delgado for the same money as he can attempt to play the outfield and is a righty bat, and the Mets are the most likely place for Delgado as they have a greater need.
I stopped reading after seeing “Dye as the DH”
Meh, it may not be all that bad of an idea.
Dye still mashes lefties. Take away his horrible OF defense and put him as a fulltime DH, he may produce quite nicely.
I’ll think about Dye when Thome and Delgado are off the market.
You lost me at Dye.
I used to feel the same way, but Dye has warmed on me.
His 2nd half last year was ghastly. If he’s the last guy on the market, maybe take a flier for $2 mil or so. But I’d rather see Delgado/Thome/Cust(yeah I said it)/etc. before I got to Dye.
I’d even consider Baldelli as Grandy’s caddy against LHP and a semi-regular DH.
Hmmmm.
His 2nd half babip was .195, his K rate was the same, his BB rate was up in the 2nd half. Maybe he’s not toast after all.
See?
He’s not that bad of an option when you start digging into his actual production.
You should have done that for me. It was your point!
Catch a fish for a man, and you feed him for a day.
Teach a man how to fish, and you can have sex with his wife while he’s out fishing.
As long as he never ever touches a baseball glove again, I’d consider him. Seriously, though… The guy does nothing but sit on the bench and hit. No fielding allowed.
Offensively,
Jeter Jeter
Granderson Damon
Tex Tex
A-Rod __ A-Rod
Delgado __ Matsui
Posada Posada
Cano Cano
Swisher Swisher
Melky Melky
And that’s being conservative, because it assumes that the increase in power and speed would be negated by the dropoff in OBP, which might not even happen, so it could be an offensive improvement.
Defensively, however, the former (2010 with delgado) is about 3 wins better on defense, which could compensate for the potential dropoff from pettitte (though that, plus the poor performance from the #4 and 5 spots in the rotation last year, could very well be compensated for/improved upon by Joba and Phil, but we’re being conservative here). Contractually, it is also a significant improvement.
ok majorly epic fail. the two underscores were meant to show an = sign, and the names were supposed to be far apart. it actually looked badass. basically it said that
Jeter
Granderson
Tex
A-Rod
Delgado
Posada
Cano
Swisher
Melky
=
Jeter
Damon
Tex
A-Rod
Matsui
Posada
Cano
Swisher
Melky
Gang, “revolving DH” is code for “needing it open for Posada in ’11″ This means, Matt Holliday is your choice. Damon would be signed AS a DH generally, and parttime LF. If you sign him for 2 years, it creates a DH logjam that you dont want with aging stars (A-Rod, Jeter, Posada, Damon).
Matt Holliday would cost about 18 mil per year. They could backload some of it like they did to CC, where his annual would be say 12 this year and goes to 20 per for the final 4 years. This leaves the DH spot Swisher’s this year with Melky in RF….and next year, we can move Melky before he gets expensive…put Swish back in RF…and leave DH for Posada with Montero/Romine backing him up.
Matt Holliday makes all the sense in the world.
Plus, giving Holliday a few million less this year leaves 8-10 million. Sign Sheets, and boom….hot stove action over.
not ALL of it. A lot of that sense is being taken up by Carlos Delgado, Nick Johnson, and even Jermaine Dye, because a one year deal on any of those guys works out better than a multi-year deal for matt holliday that turns him into a DH masquerading as a LF for the last two years of his contract when Jesus might need the position.
There are going to be guys who can’t field but can still hit for power and OBP and are on the tail end of their careers every year. My guess: the yankees continue to sign these guys on cheap one-year deals every year, maximize their production by only playing them 120 games a year, and maximize A-Rod/Jorge/Jeter/Jesus’s production by giving each of those guys a lot of games at DH. Ta-Da! Girardi-ism FTW!
If we can sign Damon to an agreeable 2 year deal, that’s fine. If not, you won’t see me freaking out over the outfield of Swisher RF, Granderson CF, Melky LF + Gardner, Hoffman, etc. for 2010 with an eye towards filling LF later through trade or FA.
I wasn’t in favor of signing Holliday, but I’m rethinking it especially if you can do only 4 or 5 years. You save about $10 million by not signing Damon and $6-8 million by not signing a DH; that pays for Holliday.
Bingo. Hence why Cashman essentially did not match Matsui, and seemingly does not care about Damon. He’s being steathly Cashman…and is going to nab Holliday.
It just makes too much sense not to.
Agreed. Although reports have varied, if StL is really holding the line for Holliday at $16M for 5 years, that seems like something the Yanks have to consider. All of a sudden your OF is Holliday-Granderson-Cabrera, Swisher moves to DH and can play a corner OF spot on days that the old guys need a “half day”. Isn’t that better than paying Damon $10M and bringing in someone in the Delgado/Thome mold for $5M?
Gonzalez likely to be traded to Boston says MLBTR in 10 days.
Good lord, this again? AGonzalez has two years left on his contract for a TOTAL of $10M. Unless Boston shows up offering the moon and the stars, there is no reason for San Diego to make this deal, especially playing in the putrid NL West.
So the Sox get Lackey-Cameron and now seemingly Gonzalez. How can anyone think if they Yankees stand pat that an outfield with Melky and Swisher in teh corner spots and tow first time full year full innings starters can compete?
A-Gon isn’t even close to being in the BoSox yet. And Swisher/Melky are the best #8/#9 hitters in the league, which is what you need to consider, not where they play on the field. If Melky does end up in LF (and that’s no sure thing since Damon seems to be the top priority on the to-do list right now), he’ll be a plus defensively, and good enough hitting out of the #9 spot.
PLUS, Boston’s acquistions of Lackey and A-Gon, if they do get them, will have some severe ramifications for their future.
I wouldn’t get too worked up. The Yankees are World Series champs for a reason. They don’t need a complete overhaul of their team, and we’ve already made a substantial upgrade with the Granderson acquisition.
And let’s not forget that Joba Chamberlain and Phil Hughes should both finally start kick some ass in the rotation. If just one of them clicks, The Yankees have the best rotation in baseball.
Thats a big stretch and a lot of wishful thinking. I know I come in here lobbying for massive changes but at this point the signing of Chapman-Sheets-Damon, would work for me. I have no idea why all of a sudden the Yankees are not filling holes. I just dont think this lineup at present has enough. I am not convicned Joba will regain velocity or Hughes a changeup. I want to be wrong I hope I am wrong. I think some in here are blinded by Joba-Hughes because they come from our system. Besides now people supporting Miranda at DH were ripping me for wantng to include him in the Halladay deal. They were saying nobody wants Miranada, yet they are ok with him being our DH?
Chapman wouldn’t help the club in 2010.
The Yankees are not done filling holes, so I think you’re the one who is making the big stretch in their assertions. They’re still going after one or two bats and maybe a pitcher. Remember, its only December 16th and the market is very slow moving for non-premiere players.
Joba and Hughes are legitimate, high upside starters. Its no guarantee that they will succeed, just like any other young player, but they do project to succeed. You gotta give them a chance. They’re young and they’re cheap. Same with Miranda, though I don’t see him being a big factor. I think the only time people propose Miranda as a DH is theoretically, just to demonstrate that even if we DID have him there, the team would be ok. The guy can at least hit against righties, he’s not completely without value though types like him are a dime a dozen, that’s why no one would give a shit about him in a trade.
I just find it silly to have many major concerns when its December 16th and we’re talking about the reigning World Series champs. There are still moves to be made, and patience is a virtue, especially in this market.
BoSox are always major players, them upgrading their ball club should come as no surprise. They still have major weaknesses like everybody else.
+1
I didn’t hear your name 3x, who said it?
Fess up someone…..
[...] Mike Cameron now with the Red Sox and with Johnny Damon holding out for more cash, the Yanks have to explore new options to fill their left field vacancy. They might choose to sign [...]
Just let Johnny go. Greed is a terrible thing!!!! Milkey might just reach his potential this year after all he was clutch for the first time last year. Lets just have a couple runners in scoring position when he comes up SO HE WILL CONCENTRATE ON GETTING THE JOB DONE. The ability is there, if we can keep the mind in the game. I had rather put Damon money on another pitcher. Dont you agree.
Guys, I think from reading the tea leaves and actions and non-actions from Cashman-there is really no chance that he is signing a “pure” DH this year. No Delgado, Thome, etc. They are thinking Posada for 40-50 games there, Damon, if he resigns, for 40-50 and then a mix of Jeter,A-Rod, etc.
Damon is no longer an outfielder, plain and simple. His follies in the field are just that, and caused Girardi and staff an ongoing bout with heartburn and palpatations. I cannot envision any NL team doing anything other than summarily dismissing the notion of signing him, assuming of course they have bothered to review tapes of his 09 on-field escapades. From an AL standpoint, I can’t think of another “contender” willing to give him anything close to his demands. Like Abreu in 08, Girardi could no longer stomach incompetent defensive performance, and Booby, on even his worst wall-fearing day was never as bad as Damon. Damon ought to cease drinking the Boras Kool-Aid and consume a slug of reality, and seize on the Yankees’ offer if and when made. It should also be noted that Damon is perhaps the Manny of 09….it is recalled that Boras, after the Dodgers made their initial offer was trumpeting the ageless attributes of the ManRam who could well play into his early 40′s at a high level and was thus deserving of a six year gig, at the very least. And the line formed wrapping around the corner. We all know where that went. It would be somewhat ironic if Boras pulls another Tex and Holliday ends up in Pinstripes…and where would that leave Johnny Boy!!!