Dec
05

Yanks plans don’t include Jason Bay or Matt Holliday

By

Buster Olney notes this morning that the Yankees sifted through their outfield options during their organizational meetings, and two names that aren’t options (for whatever reasons) are Matt Holliday and Jason Bay. I’m guessing it’s the combination of lots of dollars and lots of years. Olney says that Johnny Damon remains their top target for left field, but only if he comes down to $7-8M for a year or two. Plan B is Mike Cameron, who we’re very much a fan of.

Of course, we heard last year that the team didn’t have enough cash to bring in Mark Teixeira after landing CC Sabathia and A.J. Burnett, so don’t take this too literally. Cashman is a ninja, he attacks with great stealth.

Categories : Asides, Hot Stove League
  • kenthadley

    big difference between Damon and Cameron….top of lineup hitter, more contact, takes more pitches, lefty in the Stadium……I dont see Cameron as a fallback aside from defense……

    • whozat

      Yes, and the difference in defense is also large, which makes them similarly valuable. Mike Cameron is an excellent defender at a premium position…Damon is (now) a mediocre-to-poor defender at a corner position.

      • Zack

        Damon is a horrible defender- no arm and no range.

      • radnom


        Mike Cameron is an excellent defender at a premium position…Damon is (now) a mediocre-to-poor defender at a corner position.

        Cameron’s value is not aided by the fact that he plays the more premium position, unless there is already a LF and a DH and you still want to compare Damon to Cameron. Otherwise it is only reasonable to compare the overall outfield defense with them in the lineup. This is still an advantage to Cam, but Cameron being able to play center carries no specific advantage if it simply means Melky would be moving to left field.

        • whozat

          Melky is a much better defender than Damon too. It’s also easier to find offense in a complementary-type player in LF than in CF.

          • geggles

            Analyst have suggested that Cameron would be inserted into left field. So the real and correct comparison would be Damon to Cameron. In that situation there are pros and cons of each obviously. One thing getting Cameron does give the Yankees more flexibility defensively.

  • Zack

    I kind of like plan B more than plan A

    • radnom

      Don’t drink the koolaid too much now.

      If the Yankees can get plan A at the speculated desired price (remains to be seen) then plan A is MUCH better than B.

  • Andy in Sunny Daytona

    Cashman is so stealthy, that he actually sneaks up on ninjas.

  • Charlie

    good, now all we need is for them not to give up their best young players for halladay and not to overpay in both years/$ for lackey

  • Aj

    Mike Cameron’s Line this year.. .250, .342, .452, .795, 7 Stls

    Damon’s….. .282 .365 .489 .854, 12 Stls

    HUGE difference in offense, that the Yankees can’t afford to make. You want an outfield of melky, cameron and swisher? really?

    Next year he’ll be 37 and yes he’s a good defender, but that’s a big blow in offense. And it’d be great if Cameron still ran the bases well, but 7 steals in 10 tries? Damon was a perfect 12 for 12. Also, Damon had some big at bats at Yankee stadium and in the playoffs. Bringing Cameron in is a gamble for 2010. Can he be had for one year? If so, maybe I’ll change my mind. But otherwise, I don’t like it.

    • Aj

      well I take back the 7 in 10 steals cuz that’s still good. But neither of them run much anymore. And that concerns me for a guy that’s bat is deteriorating like Cameron’s.

      • Aj

        speed* is deteriorating like Cameron’s I mean..

      • pat

        Cameron= 10.3 UZR in CF
        Damon= -12.1 in LF

        Cameron 2009 WAR = 4.3
        Damon 2008 WAR = 3.0

        Damon might hit a little better but Cameron’s stellar OF defense makes up for it and then some.

        • Chris

          Just to be fair… most of the difference (9.2 of the 12.9 RAR) is due to the positional adjustment because Cameron played CF and Damon played LF. I assume that some of that would be recovered because Cameron’s defensive advantage would be even greater if both were playing LF.

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike Axisa

      They had the best offense in the game this year. They can sacrifice ~60 pts of OPS for a substantial upgrade on defense.

      • Zack

        Especially when you had no Arod for 5 weeks, and when he came back he wasnt himself.

    • Johan Iz My Brohan

      Johnny Damon’s away line are much closer to Cameron’s overall line from this past season. Obviously the stadium helped Damon quite a bit, so who’s to say that Mike Cameron’s production doesn’t increase if he is the LFer for the Yankees next year.

    • DP

      Damon on the road- .284/.349/.446/.795. WITH a .330 BABIP

      • Steve H

        Mike Cameron’s Line this year.. .250, .342, .452, .795, 7 Stls

        Yeah, I’d say Cameron can replace Damon, all things considered.

    • Tank the Frank

      You want an outfield of melky, cameron and swisher? really?

      No, I want an outfield of Damon, Cameron and Swisher, with Melky as the 4th outfielder, giving Damon some days off in left to let him DH and substituting for Damon late in games for defense.

  • Crazy Eyes Killa

    Cash needs to not let Scott Boras hold Damon up too much, I wonder if the plan is Pettitte, Damon AND Cameron

    • Aj

      now THAT makes more sense.

      • Steve H

        Agreed, then you can actually pull off the “rotating DH”, because Melky would be your 10th hitter, and they can win with Melky getting 400-500 ab’s.

  • Aj

    I don’t think they can sacrifice the offense, considering that Boston is going to load up this off season in my opinion. I really think arbitration was the best way to go with Damon. And next year hope for Jayson Werth or Crawford to come.

    • DP

      Who cares what Boston does?

    • steve (different one)

      how was arbitration the “way to go” if you want him back?

      i get the risk vs. picks argument, but if you want him back, no way do you make the offer. see Pettitte, Andy.

  • Dan

    How is Cameron in any way,shape or form part of a strategy of getting younger and more athletic??
    There should be serious concern about how his NL numbers translate to the AL East. There are far better and less expensive options for our OF compared to what Old Mike will cost and some options are already in our system.

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike Axisa

      He’s Plan B, meaning if Damon’s gone. Cameron’s part of the plan to get younger and more athletic by holding down an OF spot for a year until Austin Jackson is ready instead of locking into Bay or Holliday for 5+ years.

    • Zack

      “There are far better and less expensive options”

      like whom? Dont say Marlon Byrd

      • Aj

        Ugh there’s no one else, you’re right. Everyone else is terrible and powerless.

        • Zack

          That’s why it’s important for people to post to do 3 minutes of research before they decalre there are tons of better and cheaper options out there.

          • Dan

            Don’t be so hard on yourself. You periodically make contriutions to threads.

            One option often overlooked is our own Brett Gardner. Compare his stats to Jacoby Ellsbury making allowances for the large discrepancy in AB’s and position in the batting order. Why are so many so afraid to give kids a chance? Did you all have the same fears in the 90’s when we gambled with Jeter, Posada, Pettitte and Mo?
            Gardner is a weepon which gives the yanks a totally different dimension. Remember he came out of spring training as the starting CF and still put up some decent numbers with limited oportunities. If we can fill the holes in our rotation we will not need so much offense and an outfield of Melky, Gardner and Swisher would be such a huge imrovement in defense. They would also provide pretty decent offense.

            • steve (different one)

              can we not compare “taking a chance” on four Hall of Fame-type talents with Brett Gardner? it’s a strawman.

              why not hand the DH job to Juan Miranda? what about Ramiro Pena to SS?

              there are legitimate reasons to believe Gardner is not a starting caliber major league player.

              i’m not saying he CAN’T be, but not every “kid” is good just because he’s young.

              • Steve H

                i’m not saying he CAN’T be, but not every “kid” is good just because he’s young.

                And Gardner isn’t all that young anyway.

            • Greg Corcoran

              Dan, there is nothing wrong with giving young guys a chance, but the problem arises when you have too many young guys who you are “giving a chance.” Melky is far from a sure thing to repeat the season he had last year, and you do not know what you are going to get from Gardner yet. To have both of them starting is far too much of a risk for a team that doesn’t have to take that risk. That being said, I think Melky bats .280 this year with 16-18 HR. He is only 24, he is only going to get better in my opinion as long as the yankees are patient with him (hitters usually are at their prime at 26-27)
              Moreover, I don’t think it would be good for the Yankees to go into the season with only 3 OF capable of starting. If one goes down or is ineffective, you are forced to deal with whatever it is Austin Jackson is capable of giving you right now. AJax is NOT major league ready with how much he strikes out, although he may be ready by midseason. Cameron is a solid choice should Damon ask for too much. He would also be inexpensive enough so that benching him if he was ineffective would be an option, and you could move to the Gardner, Melky, and Swish OF, or if AJax is playing great in AAA, maybe a midseason call up could be in order in a worst case scenario.

            • http://aol Rob

              I think Gardner could be a weapon if he learned how to bunt. Come on, this guy could have 30-40 bunt hits a year, so learn how too. He would show it for two called strikes, be in the hole and then strike out. His arm is not too good either. I agree the defense with Melk, Gardy nad Swish is ok. Although, Swish is terrible defender and should be 4th outfielder. 240 avg, 20plushr and 80 rbi. Those are barely avg numbers, like Damon’s now.

      • http://aol Rob

        What’s wrong with Marlon Byrd? Maybe I’d still try and go after Crawford or Upton. It seems like the’d deal either if package was right.

    • Johan Iz My Brohan

      It isn’t about getting younger in this case, if you want younger you get Holliday or Bay, but with that comes another huge contract and a lot of years, which would even still mean getting older a few years from now with Jeter, ARod, Tex, etc..

      This is more of a 1 year option until Ajax or another player is ready to step up.

  • JM

    This is not news to me. All we’ve been saying is not to get Holliday or Bay, and, at the moment, seems correct.

  • Aj

    And Cameron struck out 157 times this year. To compare, Swisher struck out “only” 126 times in FEWER at bats. People watching the game would say he Struck out again!! Imagine if Cameron was there. 124 Ks came against right handers. In a division with righty power like Josh Beckett, Roy Halladay (possible), James shields, Matt Garza, Dice K, this could be a big problem.

    • Zack

      And every time Damon doesnt get a ball or Ortiz goes 1st-to-3rd on his arm we can say That wouldnt have happened with Melky! (Cameron in CF)

    • DP

      James Shields struck out 6.7 K/9. Not exactly a power pitcher. The point I believe you are missing is that Mike Cameron’s superior defense makes up for some of his offensive shortcomings.

      • DP

        Whoops- department of redundancy department.

    • Johan Iz My Brohan

      This is a plan B, the Yankees might go after Cameron if Damon does not resign, don’t worry.

    • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

      Mike Cameron also walked 75 times this year and hit 24 homers. He hasn’t hit under 20 since an injury shortened 2005. What we’ll likely be saying, if he’s playing for the Yankees: “Wow, look at that plus defense in CF that’s putting out 20 home runs.” That’s what Mike Cameron does.

      Striking out a lot does not mean a player is a bad hitter.

      • DP

        But he only bats .250!

        • http://aol Rob

          Swisher hit 249!!, Melk was at 260 (around) and Damon has faded the last 2 years down the stretch. Do we think he’d be better this next year. Only wine gets better with age when your talking about a player over 35.

      • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike Axisa

        The injury in 2005 was when he ran face first into Carlos Beltran, I believe. Also, he’s had at least a 104 OPS+ every year since 1999. I’ve love to know how many other players can say that.

        Manny, A-Rod, Jeter … I can’t imagine it’s many more.

        • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike Axisa

          No wait, not even Jeter. He was at 102 last year.

          • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike Axisa

            Magglio makes it, so that’s four players so far.

            • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike Axisa

              Vlad too, that’s five.

              • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike Axisa

                http://tinyurl.com/yddjmhd

                So that’s it. A-Rod, Manny, Chipper, Cameron, Abreu, Magglio, and Vlad. Berkman and Drew have done it every year since 2000.

                • Steve H

                  How many of them play excellent CF defense?

                • JMK aka The Overshare

                  Only Manny…

        • Steve H

          Not many. And very possibly 0 who provide excellent defense in CF.

  • Crazy Eyes Killa

    What would Adam Dunn cost in a trade? Cashman should go grab him

    • http://sports-odds.com/images/stories/yankees-arod-teixeira.jpg JobaWockeeZ

      Too much.

      • Crazy Eyes Killa

        I don’t think they would demand an elite prospect, perhaps you could work something out for a bat and a couple of lower level arms

        • Zack

          They had a ridiculous asking price last year, they’re not in financial trouble and they’re trying to get people to show up to the games- dont see why they would trade him.

          • Crazy Eyes Killa

            He can walk after this year, and we could offer them a package of guys to help build up there system with, without giving up a guy who we feel is destined to have a future in the Bronx anyway (Jesus, Ajax)

            • Zack

              Well who are you talking about- a “couple of lower level arms” or someone significant?

              If you’re just throwing spare pieces at them then they’re better off hoping a team gets injuries or get desperate and move him, or keep him all season so they’re not a completely pathetic team and just take the 2 draft picks

            • pat

              Or they could not trade him and take the two picks when he leaves for free agency.

      • http://aol Rob

        What about the Korean outfielder for Cleveland. Great young player.

    • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

      I love the man, but he’s not coming to the Yankees. There’s no reason to trade for him when there are DH bats available for nothing but money.

  • Aj

    If Cameron is Plan B, then the Yanks should upgrade somewhere else. Bullpen, starting pitching or etc.

    • whozat

      That’s so obvious it’s not even worth saying. Cameron is Plan B for getting another outfielder, like Damon is plan A for that same problem.

      Neither is the alpha and the omega of offseason plans.

  • chris

    what is with this blog and Mike Cameron? he’s garbage

    • DP

      Based on? Let me guess- either his batting average, strikeouts, or the most almighty of all evaluation tools- your eyes.

      • http://sports-odds.com/images/stories/yankees-arod-teixeira.jpg JobaWockeeZ

        Don’t forget faulty memory.

        • Zack

          Is Theo going after him? Obviously he must be garbage then.

    • Steve H

      Expound please.

  • Reggie C.

    Scott Boras can’t be too happy with this Olney report. It’ll probably prompt a counter from Heyman on Monday.

  • http://sports-odds.com/images/stories/yankees-arod-teixeira.jpg JobaWockeeZ

    This means that the Yanks are signing both because of what they said about signing Teixeira!

    /Yes Network’d

  • Pingback: Yanks not interested in Bay or Holliday | The iYankees Blog - A New York Yankees Blog

  • Chris

    What exactly is he case against signing Holliday? Sure, it’s a lot of money, but he’s significantly better than the other options. People argue that he’s not a Mark Teixeira type player, but here are their values (per Fangraphs) in the three years leading up to FA:

    Tex: $11.5M, $15.6M, $30.4M
    Holliday: $32.2M, $28.0M, $25.6M

    • DP

      The case against Matt Holliday is very simple. By signing yet another high priced, long term deal (lets say 15 per), we’d have $107 million tied into 5 guys in 2013. We also would take yet another spot on the diamond. This greatly diminishes both our roster and financial flexibility.

      • Camilo Gerardo

        who needs roster flexibility when you have holiday patrolling LF everyday?

        I like Holiday, and either Sui on the cheap at DH, or I’d like to see how Miranda’s bat performs in YSIII. may be a little too early, but he killed his platoon split this year as well

      • bkight13

        Who cares about the payroll in 2013. There is a chance to win a couple more WS with this team before ARod, Jeter, Mo and Posada retire. Holliday by far is the best option. You’re not losing a corner spot, you’re filling it. I would trade missing the playoffs in 2014 for 2 more rings now.

    • Johan Iz My Brohan

      The fact that signing him would require not only money, but years as well.

      • Chris

        So why were people so excited about the Tex signing? That took money and years as well.

        As for the Fangraphs post, I agree that you need a discount because most of the last 3 years for Holliday were spent in the NL. The problem is that the same things that can be said about Holliday could be said about Tex. He played 2006 and half of 2007 in a great hitters park, then half of 2007 and half of 2008 in the NL, then back to the AL. Except for the last 2 months of 2008, you have to take all of his stats with a grain of salt.

        I understand that you limit your flexibility towards the end of the deal, but I don’t think that’s a big deal. You have the choice between having a better team with less flexibility and a worse team with more flexibility. I would choose the better team. Especially since I’m not convinced that the core guys signed for 2013 are going to still be productive then. Sure it would hurt to take a huge hit in 2013 as players really start to decline, but I expect that to happen anyway, and it would be much easier to take coming for 4 straight WS titles.

        • whozat

          Tex is two years younger, and a better hitter. And we hadn’t already locked in a 1B for the next 8 years.

          • Chris

            They’re the same age now, so entering FA Holliday is a year older. That certainly plays a role in what he’s worth, but I don’t think it makes him overpriced.

        • steve (different one)

          So why were people so excited about the Tex signing? That took money and years as well.

          simple answer: BECAUSE WE DIDN’T HAVE MARK TEIXEIRA AT THE TIME.

    • http://sports-odds.com/images/stories/yankees-arod-teixeira.jpg JobaWockeeZ
    • Arman Tamzarian

      Isn’t there a trend there?

  • Aj

    Does Cameron have a hot wife? This seems to qualify when players aren’t that great.

    • DP

      Her name is JaBreka. I’m sold.

    • Andy in Sunny Daytona

      I don’t think you’ll find a lot of MLBers with ugly wives.

      • Aj

        I’m not a fan of Leigh Teixeira, but she seems like a nice girl. And she DID say she wanted him to be a Yankee. And Melky is pretty pimp with Mary Carey, he like-a-da-woman

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v....._embedded#

        • whozat

          Really? I think Mrs. Tex is absolutely adorable.

  • BringBackWillieRandolph

    It can’t hurt to find out what it would take to get Dunn. He’d be a monster at DH for us. What if you could get him for a pitcher and a bat from the minors, excluding Joba, Hughes and Montero? Would you do that?

    • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

      I’d assume they’d ask for Jackson and/or McAllister, which is a bit steep for just one guaranteed year of Dunn. I love AD, but I don’t think we’ll ever see him in pinstripes.

    • BringBackWillieRandolph

      Oh, and when you’re looking at Holiday’s numbers for the last three years, remember that for two of those years he played in Coors Field. If I remember correctly, his home/road splits were pretty severe during those years, and he didn’t do squat for Oakland last year.

      I think the Yanks are spot on to stay away from long term commitments to either Bay or Holiday. Find a short term solution, or go get Dunn.

      • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

        His H/A splits were drastic, but his away splits weren’t as bad as everyone made them out to be. In ’06-’08, he OPS’d at least .800 on the road. Holliday’s a good hitter, and under different circumstances, he’d be a great player for the Yankees to target. However, those circumstances do not currently exist. Pass.

        • Chris

          What circumstances would convince you to sign Holliday?

          • Steve H

            4 years/60 mil? I’d do that.

            • Chris

              Sure, I’d do 4 years $60M. I’d also do much more.

              Holliday is 5th among position players in WAR over the last 3 years. He only trails Pujols, Utley, HanRam, and ARod. He’s been worth 4 wins more than Tex over the last 3 years. Some of this can be accounted for in the AL/NL talent gap and Coors field, but he’s also 9th in baseball in fielding RAR over that time.

              • Steve H

                So you want to pay him for what he’s done? I’d rather pay him for what he’s going to do going forward, but that’s just me.

                • Chris

                  Generally speaking players don’t suffer catastrophic declines in performance at age 30. I would base what he should be paid on what his expected performance is. I base his expected performance on his past performance.

                  Of course, if you think he’ll suddenly go from a 6 WAR player to a 3 WAR player, then I would agree to not paying him more than $15M per year. I just don’t see any reason to assume such a significant decline.

          • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

            Three or four year deal OR if Tex wasn’t on the Yankees. I just don’t like three corners being locked in for long term deals, that’s all.

            • bkight13

              Being filled with 3 of the best corners in baseball is NOT a problem.

    • pat

      Unfortunately though, outside Hughes, Joba, Montero and Ajax there’s not much trade bait. Myabe the Nats would be interested in Zmac or Nova but that’s about it. Perhaps if they have a weird crush on Russo something like Russo+McAllister could be done but that’s doubtful.

      • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

        I’d do that deal, but I doubt Washington would.

        • pat

          Yeah, too bad Zmac doesn’t strike more guys out, he’d be a 5 star prospect. 378 IP w/ 2.23 ERA and a 1.16 WHIP. Pretty sweet. Fangraphs wont give me his 4 year FIP average but it’s pretty much at 3.00.

          • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

            Do the math yourself, you lazy bastard!

            • pat

              Heh, I would have but didn’t feel like weighing each year differently bc of the different innings pitched.

  • r.w.g.

    Johnny Damon is a terrible outfielder. He is TERRIBLE. He was halfway to DH like 6 years ago with his arm, and after 2009 it’s blatantly obvious his range is gone.

    Offensively, I really don’t know what to make of him. Nearly all of his homers were very, very cheap ones, but they still count so whatever.

    I’ll come out and say it, I don’t want the guy back. I appreciate the job he did. If he does come back, it should be as a DH and backup OF, and if he’s demanding a 2 year deal, hang up the phone.

  • nick blasioli

    the only trade id like to see is getting granderson to play cf…hes better that melky and cameron…keep damon in lf….thats a good outfield…sign pettite and one more sp….thats my opinion..but we are all yankee fans and want the best for the team…

    • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

      Trading for Curtis Granderson = bad idea. No thank you.

    • http://sports-odds.com/images/stories/yankees-arod-teixeira.jpg JobaWockeeZ

      No Granderson is not better than Cameron.

      • Steve H

        And Granderson would be much more expensive, in prospects and $$$.

    • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

      Oh and trading for Curtis Granderson is not the best for the team, unless his price is like…Swisher low, which it won’t be.

    • steve (different one)

      who are we trading for Granderson? without this info, it’s useless to say “trade for Granderson”

  • Aj

    Damon as DH could work, but they can’t lose Matsui just like that. It’s a little off topic, but is anyone else wary of trading Joba or Hughes for Halladay for one year?I think it’s a little insane. Theyre both supposed to be future studs.

    • r.w.g.

      Eh.. yes and no. All things considered it would be nice if Joba and Hughes were both top shelf pitchers. They certainly show it at times, they have good stuff, and are young.

      But at the end of the day, who cares? So what if they are good after you trade for them Roy Halladay? That would only matter if Halladay got hurt or something, or came down with Steve Blass disease. Let’s say they trade for Doc and he gets blown up by Boston in the playoffs. You’d have no way of knowing if the same wouldn’t have happened to Chamberlain or Hughes. Same deal if the game was a well-pitched one.

      It’s the NYY, they’ll draft some other kid if they trade them. They’ll sign some other ace if they don’t, whether it’s this off-season, next off-season, or however many off-seasons in the future.

      It’s about having cost-controlled players or something. I personally could not care less. It isn’t my money. I don’t give a shit if the payroll goes up, goes down, stays the same. If Joba has a good year, great. Hughes has a good year, great. They get traded for Halladay, great.

      • DP

        Joba and Hughes cost about 3% as much as Roy Halladay. That other 97% can be used to pay other players.

        • r.w.g.

          What other players? Extending a 37 year old Jeter? Crossing our fingers Joe Mauer makes it free agency?

          Like I said, I don’t care one way or the other if Joba, Hughes, or Halladay is on the team next year. They’ll be good regardless. But it isn’t my money, so I don’t care.

          • Camilo Gerardo

            making a play for J Upton with the next mini generation of prospects and giving him a lifetime deal. next cano deal. get a centerfielder if Jackson doesn’t pan out as wanted/needed

            our rotation is set. we don’t need teh doc. but if he comes cheap aka no Hughes/Joba/Jesus/Jackson

        • toad

          +97

  • Aj

    And is Crawford even a possibility for the Yanks? I know every team with a payroll is going to swarm.

    • Chris

      Holliday is better than Crawford and would only cost money – not prospects.

      • Aj

        u mean Crawford is better than Holliday?

        • r.w.g.

          No, I don’t think he does.

          What planet are you living on where Carl Crawford is a better player than Matt Holliday?

          • http://sports-odds.com/images/stories/yankees-arod-teixeira.jpg JobaWockeeZ

            Holliday is barely better than Crawford.

            • r.w.g.

              Ehhhh… I mean, Carl Crawford has 8 seasons of major league ball under his belt and is sporting a .335 career OBP.

              Ever since Crawford’s triple numbers began declining 3 seasons ago, the gap in power between the two men is significant.

              Crawford averages slightly fewer strikeouts per season, but both guys hover around 100 Ks. On average (per 162 games) Holliday walks about twice as often.

              Is there something I’m not picking up on? I mean, I know Crawford is good defensively and steals bases.. but Holliday is also good defensively. Crawford doesn’t have a great throwing arm or anything.

              I’m seeing a pretty significant production gap. But I would like to hear what you have to say, because maybe I’m wrong.

            • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

              Matt Holliday is more than “barely better” than Carl Crawford. He plays good defense and he hits for both average and power. Matty H > Mini CC

        • Chris

          Nope. Holliday > Crawford.

        • Yank Man

          Crawford better the Holliday?
          You lost all credibility.

          • Camilo Gerardo

            yea he did. the reason we have a hard on for cc is because he is really really really ridiculously fast running and a light power-hitting lefty in YSIII would be cool, like the next damon + a good arm

    • pat

      This year it would cost too much to pry him from the Rays. Next year through FA I’d take him no problem.

  • whitey

    Please no Mike C

    • Zack

      care to explain why?

      • Steve H

        Only logical explanation is that he’s not a Yankee fan, and doesn’t want to see them improve.

    • http://sports-odds.com/images/stories/yankees-arod-teixeira.jpg JobaWockeeZ

      Oh yeah his batting average is only .250! He’s bad! Let’s forget his HR, his OBP, his fielding ability and more to inaccurately analyze Cameron because he has a .250 batting average.

      The look of .250 makes me cringe.

      • Aj

        If you’re being sarcastic his OBP was .342, which is OK compared to his .250 avg, but still it’s not where near decency. what do you mean?

        • Steve H

          A .342 obp is very strong for a stellar defensive CF with 20-30 HR power.

          • http://sports-odds.com/images/stories/yankees-arod-teixeira.jpg JobaWockeeZ

            That. Curtis Granderson is considered an All Star center fielder despite his .327 OBP.

            Cameron with his better range and OBP with comparable power makes him a very valuable center fielder.

            • Steve H

              And let’s not forget that Curtis Granderson is one of the worst hitters in baseball against LHP, so he has to be benched.

              • Zack

                You didnt like his .484 OPS against LHP this year?

                (And no that’s not a typo his OPS was .484)

                • Steve H

                  Actually I LOVED his .484 OPS against LHP last year. If he did that for the Yankees, then I might take issue with it.

      • IRememberCelerinoSanchez

        Clearly, batting average isn’t the most important number, but strikeouts do matter. Think about how when you evaluate a pitcher, a key peripheral is K/9. So people shouldn’t dismiss the fact that Cameron is a K machine so easily.

        Also, he’s a 37-year-old being touted for his defense. That’s risky.

        I’m not saying Cameron would be the worst signing in the world, but I think the offensive production lost from Damon to Cameron (especially with Damon’s record of post-season success) is too much. When you factor in that Cameron would be a righty in YS, there isn’t one key offensive stat I’d expect Cameron to beat Damon at (BA, OBP, SLG, BB, K).

        Sure, if Damon wants more than 2 years or more than $9 million a year, you may have to look elsewhere. But I think it’s wishful thinking to think that Cameron’s superior defense will 1) definitely be there next year and 2) make up for the steep drop in offense.

        I would be comfortable going into next year with an outfield of Damon-Melky-Swish. I would not be comfortable with Melky-Cameron-Swish.

        • Steve H

          Good hitters strike out. Period. Look at the league leaders every year. Look at the career leaders. Again, good and great hitters regularly strike out. Not a big deal.

        • DP

          So 37 year old Mike Cameron, who was more valuable last year at a premium position, is going to fall off a cliff. 36 year old Damon, who shouldn’t have been in the outfield LAST year at a corner position is fine? Got it

          • pat

            Word, even if Cameron’s defense falls off a cliff it still won’t be in the Mariana Trench where Damon’s is.

        • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

          Strikeouts matter less for batters because making an out is making an out. No matter how it’s done, it’s still making an out. A strikeout isn’t worth “more” of an out than a ground out a or a fly out.

          Melky-Cameron-Swisher would be a top-flight defensive outfield with average/above average/above average offensive at each position. Depending on who the DH is–assuming Matsui is the DH and Damon is gone–that’s still a league-leading type of offense with improved OF defense. I’ll take that, especially considering the Yankees don’t feature many ground ball pitchers.

  • Rose

    $7-8M for a year or two for Damon?? Goodluck with that…Both Damon and Boras won’t allow it.

    You probably wouldn’t even get Cameron for that.

    Plus,

    Damon’s left handed bat at YSIII > Cameron’s right handed bat at YSIII

    • Steve H

      But they only play half their games at YSIII. And obviously Cameron is a much much better fielder. I’d like to see them both sign.

    • Yank Man

      Agreed Rose.
      Damon’s bat > Cameron’s bat in YSIII

      • pat

        Cameron’s glove >>>>>>>>>>>>> Damon’s Segway.

      • DP

        Cameron’s glove everywhere>>>>>>>Damon’s glove anywhere.

        • Camilo Gerardo

          Fenway! HEYOOOO

  • DonnieBaseballHallofFame

    “and two names that aren’t options (for whatever reasons) are Matt Holliday and Jason Bay. I’m guessing it’s the combination of lots of dollars and lots of years. Olney says that Johnny Damon remains their top target for left field, but only if he comes down to $7-8M for a year or two. Plan B is Mike Cameron, who we’re very much a fan of.”

    I like this very much. We are in position to dictate in this market. I would put a deal on the table for Damon to either sign or not sign if he does not sign I jump on Cameron or a trade for Granderson. If Granderson is expensive in terms of talent which I would assume you grab up Cameron and move on to bench, pitching and DH. I would take Damon or Matsui for DH at one year deal in 6 to 9 mill range.

  • DP

    Does anybody bashing Mike Cameron understand the value of good defense? At all?

    • Steve H

      I’ll answer for all of the Cameron bashers.

      “What’s defense?”

    • DonnieBaseballHallofFame

      No. You will get the whole “We won a WS with Damon, Melky and Swisher playing the OF, D does not matter only homers and high OBP”

      I like high OBP and homers as much as the next guy but signing Damon to a 2 or 3 year deal for big $ is death for this team.

      • Camilo Gerardo

        you can always spend more money and bench Damon. just saying

  • Andy in Sunny Daytona

    I would like the Yankees to sign Pettitte, Damon, Matsui and Cameron. Melky goes to being a 4th outfielder, and Brett the Jet goes to CF for the 2010 International League and Bricktown Showdown Champion SWB Yankees.

    The Gritanites are going to skewer me for that.

    • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

      +1 to all of this.

    • DonnieBaseballHallofFame

      I would be all for that if they are all one year deals. I would like to see Brett playing somewhere other than the Yankees MLB club. That kid is not a MLB player. Seems like a nice kid and all that but that alone does not help us win games.

      • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

        Well, his defense is good and his speed does have value. He’s useful as a bench player and nothing more. I still don’t get how he’s reached this high a level w/o using his legs during his swing at all.

        • bkight13

          I don’t want Cameron becaused we are fine in CF with Melky and Gardner. Gardner is a great spare OF and pinch runner. He is also cheap.

        • larryf

          and don’t forget he’s the best bunter in the AL. Or was that all of baseball? Can someone check what I said?

          Tim McCarver

    • Crazy Eyes Killa

      that would be awesome but no way they sign hideki matsui and cameron, i’m just hoping for two of them!

  • pat

    Mike Cameron would be a good stopgap for a year until Ajax is ready. Speaking of Ajax, this clip makes me happy.

    http://toronto.bluejays.mlb.co.....id=3398566

    • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

      Halladay holds NY to two runs in seven innings?

      • Johan Iz My Brohan

        The next video to the right.

      • pat

        That I don’t like, Where’d my AJAX clip go?

        Here it is.. yaaaaay http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com.....id=7142965

        • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

          Camera/CF: F-A-I-L.

          • pat

            Haha I know right, the kid blasts one oppo and the freaking camera pans on the crowd. Idiots.

            • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

              The pitcher thought it was gone.

  • Aj

    Would Cameron even take a one year deal? Don’t the Cubs want him for two or three?

    • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

      MLBTR has them interested, but nothing about years.

    • Zack

      Cameron on a 2 year deal is still better than Damon on his Jeter-like deal that Boras wants.
      And Cubs said they cant make any moves before they move Bradley.

      • Aj

        Boras won’t get him on a Jeter-like deal, let’s not be ridiculous. They’ll back down.

        • Zack

          he’ll still demand more than cameron will

  • jason

    It’s arguable that Cameron’s strengths and weaknesses counterbalance damon’s. But this is weighed over a signficant sample size – 162 games during the regular season. However, the postseason is a short sample size, and Cameron’s weaknesses (strikeouts), and conversely, damon’s strengths (tough out, good eye, low strike out rate) will be magnified and Cameron’s good D and damon’s bad D will not. Is that a fair assumption?

    • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

      How would defense not be magnified as well in an SSS?

      And don’t forget that Cameron is just as tough an out (I believe he and Damon saw a similar amount of P/PA in ’09) and has a good walk rate and good power.

      • Mac

        Mike Cameron Post Season:

        27 Games

        92 AB

        174/309/272

        14 BB
        29 K

        Damon

        .279/328/455

        I like D more than most, but Cameron is no where near as valuable as Damon. Damon blows defensively but he was acceptable in the post season defensively – whether he can do it another year or two is a valid concern but you can’t go with Cameron.

        • Johan Iz My Brohan

          Then we shouldn’t have gone with ARod in the post season this year. mhmm

          • Mac

            Kinda silly, don’t you think? Comparing A-Rod in his prime vs. Cameron at 37 who was never close to the offensive player A-Rod was.

            • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

              It’s also kinda silly to judge a player based on a random 92 AB sample when he’s had over 7,000 PAs in his career.

              • Mac

                Not really, when many are making assumptions that Cameron is going to post his career average #’s in the post season. Small sample size, yes, but it lends credence to the concern that the holes in his offensive game will be magnified against + pitching.

                Cammy against RHP last year .244/318/430 124K in 426 AB.

                We did the 37 year old guy with + D coming from the NL a few years ago, I’m not interested in Kenny Lofton part II.

                JMO

                • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

                  Not really, when many are making assumptions that Cameron is going to post his career average #’s in the post season. Small sample size, yes, but it lends credence to the concern that the holes in his offensive game will be magnified against + pitching.

                  We weren’t arguing number specifics, we were arguing skill sets. Anyway, I’d say it’s likely that Cameron’s numbers would go up in the post-season the more PAs he got. Even in the post season, given enough PAs, the player will regress or progress to his mean, much like A-Rod did this season.

                  Cammy against RHP last year .244/318/430 124K in 426 AB.

                  And in his career, he hits them better, a .765 OPS.

                  We did the 37 year old guy with + D coming from the NL a few years ago, I’m not interested in Kenny Lofton part II.

                  They are two entirely different players. I’d expect Cameron’s skill set to age much better than Lofton’s did.

          • Steve H

            Shouldn’t have gone with CC either. mhmmm

            • Mac

              Thanks for pointing that out, I forgot that CC is 37 years old.

              Here’s the point – Cameron has a huge hole in his game – obp and K’s – some here have questioned if those flaws will be magnified and exploited in big games and\or against better pitching.

              THe stats I quoted certainly show they will add to that that he’s 37 and stole 7 bags and had a .748 ops vs RHP – he’s not that attractive as many make him out to be.

              • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

                A .340 OBP with a 162 game average of 73 walks is a huge OBP hole?

              • Steve H

                The fact that you said OBP is a hole in his game is mind blowing. A-Rod strikes out a lot too, that’s a hole. Tex strikes out, that’s a hole. For a stellar defensive CF, Cameron’s obp is fine.

              • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

                And if you’re going to penalize Cameron’s hitting vs. RHP, why not examine Damon’s significant home/road split? He also had a platoon split with a .113 point loss of OPS vs. LHP.

        • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

          So because of a 27 game, 92 AB stretch, you’re saying the Yankees shouldn’t be interested in Cameron? Using playoff stats for either player does not do justice to them since they’ve both had long, successful careers. Over those careers, they’re essentially the same player; they just arrive at that destination differently: Damon does it w/a little more average, Cameron does it w/a little more power. Adding in Cameron’s defense and position, it’s arguable that Cameron is more valuable.

          • Mac

            You value Cameron’s career more than I do – but regardless, I look at who he is now at 37, not what he may have been.

            Rather go with Gardner\Melky\Swisher and Matsui as DH.

            • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

              You want Gardner getting 500+ ABs but you wouldn’t want Mike Cameron? Wow. Any alignment that includes two of Melky/Gardner w/o there being an injury is the farthest thing from desirable. The defense would be very nice, but it would be offensively unacceptable.

              • Mac

                Probably, but why not spend the 14 mil (lets say 2 at 7 per) for Cameron on something else and truly see if Gardner can learn to bunt and get on base.

                • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

                  What else would they spend it on? There’s no pressing need in the rotation, they don’t need to go buy a relief pitcher, either. A 37 y.o. Mike Cameron is a much safer and better bet to outproduce the younger Gardner. I’d really prefer all three of Damon/Cameron/Matsui, to put Melky on the bench (he could easily rotate all three OF spots if needed) and do whatever with Gardner. Gardner’s a nice bench guy, but he’s not someone who should get a ton of PT.

                • Mac

                  They don’t have to spend it now, or they could decide to throw it at a reliever or use it for Holliday and lock down LF for 5 years or maybe come to the conclusion that Hughes and Joba may not be front of the rotation starters and go after one.

                  Some also feel Gardner could be an everday player – I don’t – but I’d rather see him play D everyday than Cameron and have the Yanks use the Cameron $ on pitching.

                • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

                  They don’t have to spend it now, or they could decide to throw it at a reliever or use it for Holliday and lock down LF for 5 years or maybe come to the conclusion that Hughes and Joba may not be front of the rotation starters and go after one.

                  $7MM to Mike Cameron will not hinder future spending. A long term, big money deal to Matt Holliday would.

                  Some also feel Gardner could be an everday player – I don’t – but I’d rather see him play D everyday than Cameron and have the Yanks use the Cameron $ on pitching.

                  So you want the inferior player getting playing time? Cool.

            • Steve H

              So Cameron strikes out too much and his OBP is too low……and you want Gardner and his career .154 OBP and 30% K rate in the playoffs? And you can’t cite small sample size since you choose to ignore it for Cameron.

              • Mac

                One guy is 26 and will make 500K, the other is Mike Cameron.

                Go look at Cammy’s negative defensive stats when he was with the Mets – I remember the concussion and the issue with Beltran, but he really shouldn’t be hyped here as much as he’s been.

                In re Gardner in the post season – he did what I expected him to do, stink to high heaven, but if you want to talk about small sample size….

                He’s got to learn how to bunt, I don’t understand it, Mc Carver told me he was one of the best in the game at it – must have been something wrong with my TV.

                • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

                  One guy is 26 and will make 500K, the other is Mike Cameron.

                  I will guarantee, right now, on December 5th at 3:20 PM, that Mike Cameron, no matter where he is playing in 2010, will easily outproduce and bring back more value to his team (which ever one it is) than Brett Gardner will to the Yankees. Guarantee.

        • steve (different one)

          crikees

    • Steve H

      No. Defense is probably more important in the postseason as the games are lower scoring. Cameron also has a good eye, and is a tough out. Take Damon out of YSIII last year and his #’s mirror Cameron’s.

  • Mac

    Point for Steve H

    Comparing Tex’s K’s when he has 150 point advantage in ops really makes your comment nonsensical. (no offense)

    A-Rod same thing.

    Also you are assuming that Cammy is going to be a stellar defensive CFer, I’d hate to find out that we all relied on defensive stats too heavily and he’s done.

    • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

      Your point is that Cameron is a bad hitter because he strikes out a lot. Strikeouts alone do not make a hitter bad. Strikeouts coupled with no power and limited on base skills (two things that Tex, A-Rod, and Cameron all have) makes a bad hitter (see: Gardner, Brett; Francouer, Jeff).

      • Mac

        To put Cameron in the same conversation as A-Rod and Teix is disingenuous (sp?) – Cameron has much more in common with Melky (.752 ops vs. .792) than two superstars in their prime.

        • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

          No one has equated Tex/A-Rod and Cameron. We’ve never said that they are as good as each other. Production wise, the former two are obviously much better. We’re saying, though, that they have semi-similar skill sets–patience and power based approaches at the plate. High strikeout totals–something that all three of those player share–do not make a hitter bad. Lot’s of strikeouts make a player bad when he brings no power or on base skills to the plate with him; Mike Cameron brings both on base skills and power to the plate with his high strikeouts.

        • Steve H

          Yes Mac, you said that striking out is a hole in someone’s game and hurts in the postseason. Reggie Jackson, yes Mr. October himself, struck out more than anyone in the history of baseball. I am NOT comparing Jackson to Cameron, but just stating that striking out is not a huge hole in someone’s game. You also mention OBP, and Jackson’s is .356 in his career, Camerons .340 so not even a huge difference there.

          • Mac

            Cammy K’s more than A-Rod and Tex (and Reggie) and his slugging and ops are no where near what those guys produced.

            K’ing is a huge hole in a 37 year old of’s game who doesnt get on base at much above league avg and is considerably worse against RHP.

            Throw in going to a tougher league in the biggest media market for the biggest team and its not a match made in heaven.

            • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

              K’ing is a huge hole in a 37 year old of’s game who doesnt get on base at much above league avg and is considerably worse against RHP.

              73 walks per 162 in his career. 75 in 2009. Double digit walk rate almost every year. How is that not getting on base much? His IsoD is .090 for his career; again, that’s good.

              The “considerably worse” vs. RHP is also overblown because you picked one year in which he wasn’t great against them. He has a career .765 OPS vs. RHP. That’s more than acceptable, especially considering the .190 IsoP vs RHP in his career.

              • Mac

                You are still relying on career #’s for a 37 year old guy who stole 7 bases last year. You need to mention the 150+ K’s and the .748 ops against RHP – which are most of his AB’s.

                If Cameron was 27 and had sub par split stats in 09, you’d have a much better case, he’s old, he’s getting older and he’s probably going to cost 80% of Johnny Damon. Not a good deal.

                • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

                  You are still relying on career #’s for a 37 year old guy who stole 7 bases last year.

                  I couldn’t care less. I’m not expecting Mike Cameron to be a base-stealer.

                  You need to mention the 150+ K’s and the .748 ops against RHP – which are most of his AB

                  Yep, Mike Cameron strikes out a lot. He also walks a lot and hits a good amount of home runs. Why are you not mentioning that? Mike Cameron is basically Nick Swisher with a little less power but much better defense at a premium position. I’ll take that.

                  His splits vs. RHP this year was low, but it was ~20 points below his career average, which is much more reliable than the one season total.

                  If Cameron was 27 and had sub par split stats in 09, you’d have a much better case, he’s old, he’s getting older and he’s probably going to cost 80% of Johnny Damon. Not a good deal.

                  So for 80% of Damon’s cost, I can get similar production to Damon at a more premium position PLUS good defense? That’s a fantastic deal.

                • Mac

                  You aren’t going to get close to what Damon did last year from Cammy batting 8th or 9th. A RHH who can’t hit righties well in YS is not going to produce what Damon did.

                  Go look at Damon’s +1.000 ops in High Leverage and CLose and Late and .845 2 outs and RISP and look at the RBI production and tell me Cameron will give the Yanks similar performance – not to mention Damon’s overall .854 vs. .792 ops.

                  Damon is a far superior offensive player who hits in a much more important spot in the order than Cameron.

                  I’m done, lets see what Cash does.

                • Rocky Road Redemption (formerly RAB poster)

                  But he doesn’t need to replaceDamon’s offense completely, he just needs to play the great defense we expect him to and have above average offense.

    • Zack

      “Also you are assuming that Cammy is going to be a stellar defensive CFer, I’d hate to find out that we all relied on defensive stats too heavily and he’s done.”

      Chances he’s be a stellar defensive CF next year >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Your made up scenario

      • Mac

        I’m sure you said the same for Lofton >>>>>>>>>

        • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

          Kenny Lofton has nothing to do with this conversation. Stop bringing him up.

          • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

            Or, if you want to compare similar players.

            You like the younger option in Brett Gardner, right? I’m sure you liked Bubba Crosby, too. See? I can make ridiculous comparisons that have nothing to do with the topic at hand.

            • Mac

              Matt, I hate Gardner, I just think he’s a better option than forgoing Damon for Cameron. I hated Crosby even more.

              THere’s nothing ridiculous in my comps, Cameron could thrive in YS, I hope we don’t give him the chance though b\c I don’t think he’s a better option than Johnny Damon’s bat and Gardner’s glove or possibly going for Holliday, or working a trade for a David De Jesus type of LFer.

              Its all JMO, backed by what I feel is solid analysis of stats, recent trends and potential options the Yanks have in house as well as things Cash may be able to do – Cameron should be plan E.

              • Zack

                So Cameron is going to fall off the cliff at 37, but Damon is reliable at 36?

              • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

                Its all JMO, backed by what I feel is solid analysis of stats, recent trends and potential options the Yanks have in house as well as things Cash may be able to do – Cameron should be plan E.

                Your analysis is, IMO, not strong at all. It’s based solely on strikeouts while ignoring Cameron’s power and defense. Your cherry picking of his OPS vs. RHP, w/o looking at the broader trend of his career, is irresponsible.

                For the record, I don’t want Damon OR Cameron–I want them both. I want Damon in left, Cameron in CF, Swisher in right, Melky on the bench, and Gardner, well, not in the Bronx.

                • Mac

                  Matt, its not based soley on K’s – not even close – I mentioned high lev and close and late, I comped him with Lofton who did almost the exact same move, I debunked your comps to A-ROd and Tex, I mentioned his age I talked about why you can’t poo poo the most recent years stats for career #’s for a guy in decline.

                  I talked about Melky and Gardner and comped Melk’s ops to Cammys and why Melk may get better while Cammy declines further. I mentioned why I think hitters like Cammy are “empty” since the holes in their offense are many times magnified when the pitching and games become better.

                  I talked about his stats as a RHH and I mentioned that a good LHH like Damon in YS is more important that a guy who is weaker against Righties = I mentioned other stuff too.

                  Really the only thing I didn’t give you is results of his most recent colonoscopy and sperm motility – I’ll make a few calls, but I’m not promising anything….

                  I don’t think the Yanks would sign Damon and Cameron, I think they would either want to save one of those salaries or put that money to a set up man (or possibly make a big deal for a Halladay, Jason Johnson, King Felix). I think its a Damon or Cameron scenario.

                  I also think that unless its a clear upgrade over Melky\Damon|Gardner – one that gets you a starter in CF\LF for more than a year or two that Cash will deem pitching more important than CF\LF.

                • Rocky Road Redemption (formerly RAB poster)

                  I agree, I want Cameron AND Damon.

                • TheLastClown

                  BG = LIPR, aok

                • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

                  Matt, its not based soley on K’s – not even close – I mentioned high lev and close and late, I comped him with Lofton who did almost the exact same move, I debunked your comps to A-ROd and Tex, I mentioned his age I talked about why you can’t poo poo the most recent years stats for career #’s for a guy in decline.

                  You’re misreading the “comps” to A-Rod and Tex. No one said Mike Cameron could or would hit like those two. You said Cameron is a bad hitter because he strikes out a lot. Tex and Rodriguez don’t srikeout as much as A-Rod, but they do each strikeout roughly 100+ times a season. That doesn’t take away from their production because of what else they bring to the plate (quite literally) in on base-skills and power. Mike Cameron doesn’t have the same exact skills as those two (two of the best in the game), but he still gets on base (.340 career OBP, ~75 BB/162 gms) and hits ~25 HRs per 162. That power and relative patience outweighs the strikeouts.

                  Talking about his stats in close/late doesn’t help us much because those are very, very small sample sizes.

                  I talked about Melky and Gardner and comped Melk’s ops to Cammys and why Melk may get better while Cammy declines further. I mentioned why I think hitters like Cammy are “empty” since the holes in their offense are many times magnified when the pitching and games become better.

                  It’s incredibly doubtful that Melky improves. He’s been the same player for the last 2,000+ PAs and has shown no consistent improvement.

                  Mike Cameron, on the other hand, has put up at least a 104 OPS+ in the last 11 years. Only A-Rod, Manny, Chipper, Magglio and Vlad have done that.

                  I talked about his stats as a RHH and I mentioned that a good LHH like Damon in YS is more important that a guy who is weaker against Righties = I mentioned other stuff too.

                  You mentioned one year of Cameron’s vs. RHP OPS while ignoring the larger trend of his career, which is 20 points higher than his 2009 output vs. RHP, which featured an impressive .190 IsoP, so it’s really not as bad as you’re making it seem.

                  You also ignored Damon’s away splits and .113 drop in OPS vs. LHP. Cameron’s drop vs. RHP is unacceptable, but Damon’s vs. LHP isn’t?

                  I also think that unless its a clear upgrade over Melky\Damon|Gardner – one that gets you a starter in CF\LF for more than a year or two that Cash will deem pitching more important than CF\LF.

                  Mike Cameron is a very clear upgrade over Melky Cabrera and Brett Gardner.

          • Mac

            He has more to do with this conversation than most of the guys many here are mentioning in the same breath as Cameron.

            Lofton was coming off a very good year in the NL Central at 36 with very good defensive stats. He came to NY at 37 and was horrible.

            Cameron is doing something similar and his stint with the Mets (also in NY I am told, although I’ve never seen them) was not a high point in his career.

            • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

              Lofton was coming off a very good year in the NL Central at 36 with very good defensive stats. He came to NY at 37 and was horrible.

              He wasn’t horrible. He wasn’t good, but he wasn’t horrible. His skills–speed based–do not age well. Cameron’s–power and on base skills–do age well. Cameron > Lofton.

              • Mac

                Matt,

                Lofton’s ops dropped 60 points and his Rtot went from +5 to -8 as a Yanks – he was horrible.

                I’ll also make the arguement that Lofton was a better bet than Cameron to succeed offensively since he was a top of the order hitter with a great obp and low K’s.

                • TheLastClown

                  While totally discounting the more relevant comparison of skill sets and their potential to age well.

  • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

    Regarding this entire Mike Cameron conversation:

    Remember last winter, when everyone thought it was crazy dumb to expect Nick Swisher to be a good player in 2009, because he struck out so much and had a low batting average?

    Yeah… good times.

  • Pingback: Hot Stove Musings (Volume 1) « 161st Street

  • Martin L

    Just because the Yankees swooped in late in the process last year to spent for three big free agents doesn’t mean we can expect them to do so this year. I believe signing the third (Teixiera) last year was authorized because of the projected thin market this year. I predict that the Yankees will not trade for Halliday (giving up young players PLUS paying a free agent type salary)—they’ll try to take care of the Pettite and Damon situations plus slotting in some complemantary players.