Apr
14

Feliciano has torn shoulder capsule

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Update (4/14/11, 3:51pm): Via Ben Shpigel, Feliciano has a torn shoulder capsule and is deciding whether or not he wants to try to rehab it or have season-ending surgery. Those of you with good memories will remember that Chien-Ming Wang had the exact same injury in 2009, and of course he still hasn’t come back. Ken Davidoff says Feliciano is heading to see Dr. Andrews for a second opinion next week, but there’s only so many ways you can say “yep, it’s shredded.”

Original Post (4/13/11, 10:23pm): Via Ben Shpigel, Joe Girardi said after tonight’s game that the MRI on Pedro Feliciano‘s shoulder was not good, simply calling it a “damaged shoulder.” It sounds like surgery is a possibility, which would presumably end his season before it even had a chance to began. Hopefully that’s not the case, but they have to brace for the worst. If only someone had warned them about the dangers of signing an over-worked, 30-something reliever to a multi-year deal. Maybe they’ll finally take the hint.

Categories : Asides, Injuries
  • Avi

    Is there evidence that relievers are more injury prone than starters? To me any contract given to a pitcher is risky.

    • Guest

      But at least starters are worth it.

      Money + long term commitment + middle reliever = Just say no.

      • Avi

        I don’t know. Starters also get much more $$ than relievers. If you add up the money being burnt on hurt pitchers i think you’ll find that much more is being burnt on starters than relievers.

        • Guest

          There should be more burnt on starters than relievers. My point is that middle relievers are so fungible and so volatile that you should spend as little money on them as possible.

          Instead, the Yankees have two starters who are making more than Pedro Felicano this year. Two.

          2 years 8 million for a LOOGY is ridiculous. 2 years 8 million for an abused LOOGY in his thirties is…spending money just for the sake of spending money.

  • http://twitter.com/steveh_mandaura Steve H

    If only someone had warned them about the dangers of signing an abused reliever to a multi-year deal.

    • Avi

      I didn’t see anyone complaining that he was abused when they signed him.

      • http://twitter.com/JoeRo23 The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

        I’m sorry, but you must not have been looking. There were plenty of people talking about Feliciano’s workload when the Yanks signed him.

        • Avi

          I was on this site everyday and I just don’t remember that being said at all. Many people including myself said it was WAY too much to give a LOOGY but I don;t remember anyone bringing up the durability factor.

          • http://twitter.com/JoeRo23 The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

            You were on this site, you’re right. You commented in this thread, where two people pointed out concerns with Feliciano’s workload:

            http://riveraveblues.com/2011/.....nt-1490116

            Also see Steve’s comment below, obviously.

      • http://twitter.com/steveh_mandaura Steve H

        The workload raises concern about how much longer Feliciano can sustain his production, although the arbitration offer only committed the Mets to retaining Feliciano through next season and not a multiyear deal. November 10, 2010

        http://goo.gl/oUobu

        Feliciano, 34, went 3-6 with a 3.30 ERA in 92 appearances for the Mets. It was the third straight season that the lefty appeared in at least 86 games, a workload that raises red flags. December 17, 2010

        http://goo.gl/BkH1K

        • Avi

          You guys are right. People did bring it up.

          • http://twitter.com/JoeRo23 The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

            Yeah… When the Yanks sign a guy there’s definitely a tendency for a lot of people to look at the bright side of the signing, but there were people noting how his workload could have been a problem.

            Whatever… The Yanks knew he’d pitched a ton of innings, and they took a risk that looks like it won’t pay off for a while. Fingers crossed.

            • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

              The Yanks knew he’d pitched a ton of innings, and they took a risk that looks like it won’t pay off for a while.

              That.

              Cashman’s not a moron for signing Feliciano (or Marte, for that matter), even to a multi-year contract. Cashman took a calculated risk in each instance, and regrettably both of those dice rolls have (partially) come up snake-eyes.

              Shit happens.

              (I’m not saying you were saying he’s a moron, Mondesi. Just using your accurate comment as a jumping off point for me stating my own opinion.)

              • http://twitter.com/JoeRo23 The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

                I don’t know… I really didn’t have a big problem with the signing when it happened, nor was I in love with it, I was kind of indifferent to it… But I don’t think we can totally absolve Cashman of blame just because we know he knew the risks and decided it was worth the risk. Just because he was aware of the risks and made a calculation doesn’t mean he made the right choice.

                I can’t get too worked up either way, I feel the same way about it today as I did when they signed the guy. It’s a reliever, sometimes you take a shot on one of these guys, and sometimes shit happens and it doesn’t work out. I do think, though, that the workload should probably have been a bigger red flag than it was, apparently. I wouldn’t kill Cashman for it – in the grand scheme of things this is kind of a minor issue – but I’m not so sure we can totally let him off the hook for it, either.

                • NJYankeeFan

                  I don’t have a huge problem taking a chance on Feliciano since it only cost money. If they had given up a good prospect to get him, I’d be more upset. Cashman should be irate at the medical staff that gave him a clean bill of health though it’s possible his medicals looked OK before the signing and he tore something in spring training.

                  They’re gonna have to find a LOOGY though unless they use ManBan in the role down the stretch.

                  • Ted Nelson

                    I’m no Dr., but a lot of people have commented about how every pitcher’s shoulder has significant damage. I think it’s very likely something happened in ST, as he was able to pitch to start ST and isn’t able to pitch now… seems like something changed.

                • Ted Nelson

                  Yeah, but just because Feliciano got injured doesn’t mean that he made the wrong choice… obviously in hindsight it looks that way, but not necessarily based on the info he had.

              • http://www.yankeenumbers.com Mr. Sparkle

                Cashman makes HIMSELF look like the moron when he goes out and blames the Mets for overworking him…leading to this injury. If that was the case, it proves Cashman:

                A) Knew how much the Mets used him for three years and thought he was overworked, yet didn’t care or think it was a factor…even at his somewhat “advanced age” for a pitcher.

                or

                B) DIDN’T realize how much he was being used, which is actually worse given that they play across town and the simple “Games Appeared In” stat is easy enough to look up.

                Choice A gives him a little more wiggle room as Cashman could argue he felt that Feliciano had a “rubber arm.” However, I have yet to hear Cashman say that at ANY point. Evidence points to Cashman being a little ignorant on this one.

                • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

                  If that was the case, it proves Cashman:

                  A) Knew how much the Mets used him for three years and thought he was overworked, yet didn’t care or think it was a factor…even at his somewhat “advanced age” for a pitcher.

                  or

                  B) DIDN’T realize how much he was being used, which is actually worse given that they play across town and the simple “Games Appeared In” stat is easy enough to look up.

                  You’re leaving out Option C.

                  C.) Knew how much the Mets used him for three years and thought he was overworked, but considered the upside, cost, risk, reward, present alternatives and future alternatives and gambled that with proper rest and management, he could hold up and provide value in the limited but prioritized role he was being signed for.

                  • BKLYN

                    That’s all fine, but then don’t open your mouth and promptly insert your foot into it by making those comments about the Mets.

                    Cashman has been too chatty with the press lately.

                    • Ted Nelson

                      I think people are making too big a deal out of a sound bite… as usual.

                • Ted Nelson

                  Yeah, Cashman probably has no access to stats that show him the number of games Feliciano appeared in… Come on. B) is not an option. He knew there was a risk, but judged it to be worth taking. In hindsight it appears he was wrong. No one bats 1.000. If he signed Randy Choate and Choate blew out his shoulder or had an ERA of 10, would that automatically have been the wrong move too?

      • JU

        I’d say more people were protesting the signing than celebrating. At the time I would’ve taken Jenks over him, righty throwing and all. U and Cashman and a half dozen other people were prob the only ones in favor of it.

  • joe

    another Marte!!!!

  • Guest

    It seems…so…simple.

    Why spend money/give long term commitments to the most fungible “regulars” on the roster?

    Do the words “Steve Karsay” and “Kyle Farnsworth” meaning anything to anyone?

    • Pasqua

      Lefties pitch forever for a reason. They are a commodity. Supply and demand rules apply. Guys like Marte and Feliciano are talented lefties, therefore they get paid. As was noted above, bad luck has befallen the Yankees in both cases. That’s all.

      • Ted Nelson

        Amen. However, people would rather stick to their silly rules that no reliever should ever get even a two year contract, no starting prospect should ever become a reliever, and teams should only use crappy, cheap pitchers no other team wants to sign as relievers… go through 10 or 20 or 50 guys to find out which ones are hot this season, hope you can time the market, and lose a bunch of games in the meantime… Fun stuff.

  • Russ

    Seems like Andy Sisco may get another shot at the big league level. Really, no other options in house unless you count Garrison.

  • http://twitter.com/urbainshockcor Urban

    I am shocked, shocked to find damage is going on in Pedro Feliciano’s shoulder!

    /Captain Renault’d

    • http://twitter.com/themanchine Bruno (The Manchine)

      ietc

  • Dice-Klay

    When Girardi screws up every blog freaks out.

    Yet when Cash screws up he always gets a pass.

    • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

      What blogs are you reading where Cashman gets a pass? On anything?

      Cashman gets ripped for the most petty shit on almost every Yankee blog there is.

      • Zack

        He was too busy climbing at building to look at Feliciano’s usage!

        • Zack

          a building

    • NJYankeeFan

      Pointing out Cashman’s errors in judgement is a favorite pastime on most of these blogs.

      There are 2 factions: those who don’t like him and bitch about every move that doesn’t turn out aces and those who defend every single move he makes no matter how bad it may have been.

  • paul

    everyone saw this coming…overused w mets…just a bad deal. time to move on…

  • Gonzo

    Man oh man, just great. Had to have a “name” brand loogy.

  • IRF

    Whatever. If any team can afford to waste 8 million dollars on a LOOGY its the Yankees. Its frustrating because everyone knew it was a bad deal, but it won’t really affect the team.

    • Mister Delaware

      I was skimming down waiting to see someone finally say this. It sucks that he’s hurt and might not pitch this year, but its not a true loss by any means. If we didn’t sign Feliciano, it would be Logan and who knows, just like it is now. The $4MM per means nothing in a non-capped sport, it didn’t (and I’d bet anything won’t) preclude any other move. Sucks, doesn’t matter. No better or worse than giving Pettitte $4MM to think about coming back or something goofy like that.

  • A-Rod’s Wingman

    Obviously this isn’t good, made worse by Boone Logan remembering that he’s Boone Logan. I mean, Cashman made a bad move, but it’s an eight million dollar bad move. It’s not that big of a deal in the large scheme of things, hopefully he’ll get better and be ready for October and next year…if John Sterling gets another “When healthy he’s one of the best relievers in baseball, and if you don’t believe me just ask Ryan Howard” moment with Feliciano then I’m okay with the move.

  • Rey22

    Well, on the bright side LOOGYs are relatively easy to acquire via trade. Don’t cost much in players either.

  • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

    Maybe if we cut up Damaso’s shoulder and Pedro’s shoulder, between the two of them, we might have enough muscle and tendon for one functioning, effective left shoulder that can be used right now. There’s no point in having them exist independently, they’re not whole LOOGYs anymore.

    Pedraso Feliciate. Make it happen, Cash.

    • Tom Zig

      You just had to combine them in such a way that the last name almost looks like a variation of fellatio

    • Avi

      Ha! welcome back Tommie. Missed ya.

    • Pasqua

      We can make them better. Stronger.

      /bionic music plays

  • Stryker

    welp.

  • A-Rod’s Wingman

    Someone get David Purcey fitted for Pinstripes!

  • Zack

    Well at least Arthur Rhodes & Darren Oliver know they’ll be a 8-12m contract waiting for them this offseason; special clause for a free shoulder scope and 6 month stay in Tampa.

  • jorge brosada

    Great, we probably won’t get anything out of Feliciano this year, which means we’ll be having to deal with a whole lot more Boone Logan…

  • Mike

    Did this guy have to pass a physical before they signed him?

    • It’sATarp

      he did pitch ST so me might have been fine then…then boom who knows

    • Adam

      Nah, they waved it just for the heck of it and took his good word.

  • Jorge

    Paul Assenmacher is fit and ready.

    • Mister Delaware

      “Shit, they picked him.” – Ken Dayley

  • AndrewYF

    Hey, if a GM is going to have one thing he consistently fucks up on, I’m glad it’s for one of the least important parts of the team.

    Maybe it’s some secret plan from MLB to keep Girardi from making 5 pitching switches per game. Hasn’t anyone noticed how Yankee games are averaging under 3 hours this year?

    Seriously though, no more multi-year deals for relievers who aren’t going to close. Not, you know, a big deal, like at all, but probably just something you could look at.

  • Cy Pettitte

    is somebody punching Feliciano in the shoulder every day? seems like every day it just keeps getting worse

  • Deadhorse25

    Who can the Yankees obtain to replace him

    • Mister Delaware

      Mike Stanton.

    • sage

      Kei Igawa

    • Monteroisdinero

      Ford/Guidry/Righetti/Wells/Lloyd

      the list of available Loogy Yankees with beating hearts goes on and on.

      Al Downing can scrap his old timer’s day start if need be.

  • Avi

    How did Feliciano pass his physical? It’s hard to imagine he did this much “damage” to his shoulder in spring training alone.

    • NJYankeeFan

      These pitchers can tear something on any pitch. If I were Cashman though, I’d have all his medicals re-examined to see if the medical staff missed something because it does seem a little fishy.

    • Ed

      All pitchers have damaged shoulders and elbows. MRIs aren’t really that conclusive – they’re really only definitive when it gets to the point that you can’t put off surgery. Otherwise, it’s really guesswork as to how bad things are.

      Even more general, something like 1/3 of adults have a rotator cuff tear large enough to show on an MRI. If you limit it to men, it’s more like 1/2.

      Basically, if you look for it, you’re going to find shoulder damage. You don’t worry about it until it becomes a problem.

  • Rob

    Where is Kenny powers when you need him

    • NJYankeeFan

      He’s a righty though.

      I’d still sign him if he promised to ride in from the bullpen on a cart being pulled by donkeys.

  • Dr. O

    I’m tellin ya, when Feliciano is healthy they’ll have Steve Karsay back too and will DOMINATE.

  • joe

    pettitte for LOOGY!

  • theyankeewarrior

    Three lefties.

    $4M a piece.

    All worthless.

  • http://twitter.com/urbainshockcor Urban

    So, no, I wasn’t overreacting.

    Vague injuries to pitchers never sound good because it means one of two things:

    1)they can’t identify the problem, which isn’t a good sign, or;

    2)they don’t want to admit the problem they suspect.

    http://riveraveblues.com/2011/.....nt-1786363

    • Ted Nelson

      Or it’s really just a minor injury that will heal up with a few days rest…

  • bonestock94

    What’s the over/under on appearances in 2012? I’ll guess 20 and take the under.

    • http://twitter.com/joero23 The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

      Right now I’d set the over/under at 1.

      • bonestock94

        I’ll still take the under

        • http://twitter.com/joero23 The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

          Same. Over the course of the entire contract. Le sigh.

  • Cy Pettitte

    ugh, any possible trade targets? we REALLY need a legit LOOGY, Boone Logan alone isn’t enough for the entire season.

    • Ted Nelson

      Here’s a possible short-term target Mike highlighted yesterday: http://riveraveblues.com/2011/.....aid-46206/

      If there’s a deal out there fine, but I don’t think it’s an immediate need. I think the Yankees will get by until a trade does present itself, a Sisco/Banuelos/etc. gets a call-up, or just without any lefty besides Boone.

  • Monteroisdinero

    Unfortunate but no need to panic. Our righties + Rothschild can get it done.

    /Boone Logan

  • jorge brosada

    Over/Under 20 IP for Feliciano under his 2 yr contract?

    • http://twitter.com/themanchine Bruno (The Manchine)

      Wang had the same injury two years ago, how many innings has he pitched since?

  • W.W.J.M.D.

    So whats the news on Marte, is he healing up well? Or am I dumb enough for thinking he will be back this season ever?

  • Zooboy

    Time for D-Rob to start throwing lefty. Problem solved.

  • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside the Elder

    Let’s get Pat Venditte up here, pronto.

    Problem solved.

    • http://twitter.com/steveh_MandAura Steve H

      If he ever hits FA, will Cashman give him double 2 year/$8million contracts, one for each arm?

      • Cy Pettitte

        I think it multiplies, 4 years/$64mil

    • MikeD

      Ahh, and the beauty of it all is we only need one half of Venditte. We can leave the righthanded part in AA.

  • theyankeewarrior

    Trade candidates? Cash will surely acquire a LOOGY at the deadline. But who?

    • Cy Pettitte

      Randy Choate reunion?

      • theyankeewarrior

        In all seriousness, when Manny nears his innings cap, I wouldn’t mind seeing him flash 97 out of the pen vs. AGon and Papi in September/October.

        • bonestock94

          I know tons of successful pitchers have taken the bullpen -> starter path, but I have little faith in the Yankees doing that right. I’d rather him force his way into the rotation in 2012.

          • theyankeewarrior

            If the Yankees can’t put him into the bullpen for one month when he nears his innings cap, and then transition him back in the AAA rotation again the next season, then they are truly incompetent when it comes to developing pitching.

            • MikeD

              My guess is Manny is in the Yankee rotation right out of ST 2012, assuming all goes well in 2011. I don’t think he has all that much to learn, so as long as the Yankees can get his innings up to 150 range this year, he’s good to go next year.

              I also think we will see him on the MLB level this year, even if it’s late and in a very limited role.

              • theyankeewarrior

                2012 is cool with me, as long has he forces his way onto the roster with performance.

                And yes, I believe that once he hits his 100 or so innings this season, he should be transitioned into the pen for a one batter/LOOGY-esque role.

                This is all assuming that he continues to perform and stay healthy of course. But if he’s dominating, and he has 20 or so innings left in him for 2011, why not use them against Agon/Papi/Hamilton than against the Juan Miranda’s of the world.

                Unless we have a better option.

                • The Big City of Dreams

                  This is how it starts

          • MikeD

            Why, because Joba fell on his arm on a warm August Texas day in 2008 trying to avoid a throw from Ivan Rodriquez?

          • Ted Nelson

            I don’t know that there’s a “right way” for an organization to do that… a lot of it comes down to the player. I don’t think it’s reasonable to say that had Pedro pitched a year in relief for another org his career would have gone a whole lot differently than it did pitching for 3 different organizations. I don’t think it’s reasonable to say that Curt Schilling was perfectly handled by the 3 different org.’s for whom he pitched out of the pen and that they are responsible for his success… I’d credit him for that. Or that probably almost entirely different personnel successfully handled Kenny Rogers and CJ Wilson or David Wells and Brandon Morrow two decades apart just because they worked for the same org. Or that with another org. than Yankees/Mariners Mo/Soriano would have been a top of the rotation starter rather than a reliever for life.

            • theyankeewarrior

              I agree, but I think the same point can be made about the individual player.

              If a player is incapable of pitching for one month of his career out of the bullpen, and then returning to the rotation the next season, then he is probably incapable of developing himself, and will probably never reach his peak.

              The point it, that using a kid like Manny in the pen, after his innings limit is nearly up, should not be an obstacle in his development. In fact,(IMO) it should be the opposite.

              • The Big City of Dreams

                God no no Manny in the bullpen. The kid has pitched a handful of games in AAA

  • bonestock94

    How has Noesi fared against lefties?

  • nathan

    Just beautiful. Pickup junk from Mets, they get a comp pick out of it too. Lose your #1 pick for Soriano. Cash$$ has lost it.

    I donno if this signing was worse than declining Marte’s 6M option and signing him to a 12M 3 yr deal. Lol.

    • http://twitter.com/steveh_MandAura Steve H

      Lose your #1 pick for Soriano. Cash$$ has lost it.

      Did you miss how that whole signing went down?

      • nathan

        No, I do realize Levine went over his head. I meant that from a Yankee decision standpoint.

    • Ted Nelson

      The Mets would have gotten a comp pick had Feliciano signed a major league deal with any team…

  • Gonzo

    Didn’t Wang have rotator cuff issues on top of the capsule tear. Maybe when/if Johan comes back, that would be a better idea of what surgery can do. Prior never had his fixed.

    • MikeD

      Johan Santana. $20-million-a-year LOOGY. Let’s go for it.

      • Gonzo

        Why would you do that when ManBan can do it for a sliver of the cost.

  • theyankeewarrior

    Cashman:

    “There’s a good chance that we don’t have Feleciano for the rest of the season he never pitches in MLB again.”

    Fixed.

  • MikeD

    Sunk cost. Move on.

  • ADam

    Andy Sisco… Please stand up

    • fire levine

      (Yankee stadium goes dark)

      Dude sit down you’re blocking the lights

  • Jimmie Foxx

    Time to start throwing crap at the wall and seeing what sticks.
    Hello Scott Schoeneweis.

  • Ted Nelson

    “see Dr. Andrews for a second opinion next week, but there’s only so many ways you can say “yep, it’s shredded.””

    I am no doctor, but I would imagine that there are different degrees of shredded… Another Pedro was pitching with a partially torn rotator cuff going back to dominant Boston days.

    • Kipper the Dog

      Not a doctor, he just plays one on the Internet.

      • Ted Nelson

        My point is that I’m not playing Dr… Mike assumes that torn is torn, I’m saying that if he is going to see someone and debating between rehab and surgery it logically follows that it’s not as simple as torn vs. un-torn. It’s also just logical that with any body part you can have different degrees of “broken.”

        • http://twitter.com/themanchine Bruno (The Manchine)

          As a trained EMT with many friends in the medical industry, I can say you are incorrect. Torn IS torn, as is broken – broken. There are different degrees of strains. After a muscle/ligament is strained, it tears. Bones are either broken or they’re not, but there are different types of breaks (displaced, hairline, stress).

          • Mike

            You can have full-thickness tears or partial tears– those which do not go all the way through. There’s also the location of the tear and how big it actually is.

            So there are different types and degrees of injury associated with a tear.

            But I don’t have many friends in the medical industry, so take it for what it’s worth.

  • mbonzo

    I’ve got one of those!
    It certainly sucks, but Ill way to see what Andrews says. This is the type of injury that you can handle the right way and pitch through. If its low-medium tear you can build up the muscles in the area and prevent dislocation. Mark Prior has a high-risk torn capsule that can’t be fixed through surgery, and he’s throwing low 90’s so I am gonna wait for a second opinion on this one.