Dec
28

Open Thread: Rock Raines

By

(AP Photo/Kathy Willens)

Tim Raines has the unfortunate distinction of being the second best leadoff hitter in baseball history, which is only unfortunate because he was overshadowed by the best leadoff hitter in baseball history, who was playing at the same time. He also spent much of his career tucked away in Montreal and never won a major award. Raines did reach base 3,977 times in his career though, the 46th most in history and more times than Hall of Famer Tony Gwynn. During his five-year peak from 1983-1987, he hit .318/.406/.467 with 355 steals, 433 walks, and just 311 strikeouts in 3,394 plate appearances.

The Yankees acquired Rock from the White Sox on this date in 1995, sending a minor league pitcher named Blaise Kozeniewski to Chicago. Kozeniewski didn’t even play baseball in 1996 or ever again for that matter, so the Yankees basically got Raines for free. He spent three years as a platoon left fielder in the Bronx, helping the Yankees to the 1996 and 1998 World Series Titles. He posted a .299/.395/.429 batting line in pinstripes, a 115 OPS+ that is probably more than I think anyone could have expected back them, his age 36-38 seasons.

Raines is again eligible for the Hall of Fame this year after being unjustifiably left out last year, so hopefully this is the last time we have to see his name on the ballot. Rock obviously won’t wear a Yankees hat into Cooperstown whenever he does get elected, but we’re going to remember him for his only two World Series rings. That’s more important around here.

* * *

Here’s tonight’s open thread. The Rangers, Devils, and Knicks are all playing tonight, but talk about whatever you want here. Anything goes, so have at it.

Categories : Open Thread
  • Thomas Cassidy

    I hope Raines gets in. He was a great player. Unfortunately for him he was overshadowed by Henderson.

  • Plank

    I love Tim Raines like McAdams love Gosling.

    • laser

      True that.

      Double true!!

  • Rich in NJ

    I wish Raines had become a Yankee earlier in his career.

  • mustang

    “5:12pm: The Cubs and Blue Jays continue to discuss a Garza deal, Jim Bowden of MLB Network Radio and ESPN.com tweets. The Cubs seem to be prioritizing young starting pitching in talks about Garza, tweets Jon Heyman of CBSSports.com. One executive told Heyman that the Yankees and Blue Jays have what it takes to acquire Garza.”

    Come on Cash pull one out of the hat baby!!!!

    • Rich in NJ

      Unless the price is extremely reasonable, I would hope that Cash passes the hat.

      • pat

        After pooping in it.

        • Rich in NJ

          Well yeah, as long as he’s not pooped on… (which is what a lot of the rumored asking prices for starting pitching would amount to)

      • Dave203

        Define reasonable… Clearly they aren’t trading Montero for Garza. If you think we are getting away with not including ManBam or Betances as well, keep dreaming. However, I think giving up 1 of the 2 is completely doable. Throw in a few other AAA level, back-end projected SPs like Warren, and I think a deal can be made and still be reasonable for what we get in Garza.

        Garza gives us the flexibility to pursue someone like Hammels or pass if Hughes can find his zone again and the price on Cole gets stupid.

    • Jumpin’ Jack Swisher

      Imagining what the price would probably be, I’d pass that hat to someone else.

    • Guns of Navarone

      If I’m going to give Montero and/or Banuelos plus for anyone, I would have wanted Latos. Every team is going to start with Montero, Banuelos, Betances… might as well get the youngest one with the best stuff and the most years of team control left.

      Garza is a HR waiting to happen and then he’s a free agent in 2014. Pass.

  • Gonzo

    Thoughts on Andrew Bailey to Sox. I wasn’t blown away by the package to get him, but I don’t know much about Head or Alcantara.

    • bonestock94

      Seems like a total steal

    • CJ

      Seems like Boston got him cheap

      • tyrone sharpton

        Boston gets Andrew Bailey for a bag of potatoes. What a steal

      • Monteroisdinero

        They have Melancon and Bailey (who has been shaky against us) and lost Papelbon and Bard ( from the pen). I like our guys alot better and think the Sux are worse.

        • Mike

          They would’ve been worse without Bailey…

    • Joe

      Fangraphs had Head at 15 on the Red Sox prospect list…. originally 3B who they switched to 1st base (because they didn’t think he’d be good enough at 3rd defensively). He supposedly has a decent bat, but for 1B you need more than a decent bat.

      Alcantara was in rookie ball (hasn’t even seen A ball yet); supposedly has a ‘live’ arm.

      Seems like Beane got completely ripped off. Reddick seems marginal as a starting OF and since he already has service time why would the A’s even want him? (it’s not like they are contending anytime soon)

      This trade makes zero sense from the A’s pesepective. I get the salary dump aspect, but why not get all propsects? Also Bailey would probably get 3-4mil in arbitration, so why not wait for the trade deadline (where teams may be more desperate)

      • Soriano Is A Liar

        Well they do need *somebody* to play the OF. Ryan Sweeney can’t man all 3 spots now that he’s coming to Boston too.

    • Jumpin’ Jack Swisher

      Sox lost their closer. They went and got one. That’s what a team like them should be doing. This is not a problem the Yankees currently have. Therefore, I don’t care.

      I wonder if losing Reddick will come back and bite them in the ass.

  • Steve (different one)

    Raines > Dawson/Rice

    • Gonzo

      But then what about Vince Coleman?!?!

      • Pat D

        Go away, Steve Phillips.

      • Jumpin’ Jack Swisher

        Both Nixon brothers say hello. :)

        • Plank

          Trot and Richard?

          • Rainbow Connection

            Trot and Cynthia

  • Hall and Nokes

    He’s definitely in the cocaine in the back pocket hall of fame, at least.

  • Rey22

    I approve of the tag for this thread.

  • Plank

    Raines is without a doubt a HOFer*, but looking at him or any player in terms of their place in the batting order doesn’t make sense to me. Yes, he was a leadoff hitter, yes he may be the second best leadoff hitter of all time, but Leadoff Hitter isn’t a position. It wouldn’t make sense if someone said Jeter is a good player and compared him to other leadoff hitters instead of comparing him to other SS to prove it. It doesn’t make sense to do it for the HOF either.

    * I should add my standard disclaimer, that the HOF has enough inconsistencies and organizational problems that I stopped caring about players’ inductions long ago. It’s made my life much better.

  • Plank

    Deadspin got the FBI files regarding George Steinbrenner and are slowly releasing them. It’s interesting stuff. It definitely doesn’t make me like the man any more than I did (which wasn’t much.)

    http://deadspin.com/the-steinbrenner-files/

  • Avi

    Trade Banuelos, Warren and Laird for Garza or sign Kuroda?

    • bonestock94

      Kuroda, he only costs money and would be short term.

      I think Garza will command more than Gio did while not being significantly better than him.

      • CJ

        How is garza more than gio?

        • bonestock94

          Oh right, mistake, forgot to take into account years of control left.

          • Dave203

            Exactly…

            With the 2 extra arb-eligible yrs over Garza, Gio should command more via trade.

      • MannyGeee

        Really think garzas not much better than Gio?

        I am way too lazy to look #s right now, but I feel like Garzas had more good years than Gio, not even including the kick ass 2011 Garza just put up in CHI.

        • Dave203

          Comparing WAR…
          Gio (only 2yrs as SP)
          2010 — 4.2
          2011 — 5.0

          Garza
          2008 — 3.2
          2009 — 3.8
          2010 — 2.0
          2011 — 2.9

          They are different pitchers, but a 2yr young Gio with those numbers in the AL should be worth more than Garza in the trade market.

        • bonestock94

          Yea I do. Gio walks a bit more, but also K’s a bit more. Season to season they may not be so similar, but the career lines are. Basically I’d expect either to hover around 4 FIP. I feel like these guys are being treated like elite guys when they just aren’t. Above average pitchers that will boost any rotation? Absolutely.

    • Rob

      Add Montero and likely Romine to that deal.

      • http://bassoprofundo1.blogspot.com ColoYank

        Yikes.

      • Dave203

        Montero is not needed for Garza. Garza is less than Gio and Gio did not command Montero-type players. The offer of Betances/Warren/Laird is decent comparison to the Gio trade. Gio’s #’s are better considering he is in the AL throwing the same numbers around.

    • mbonzo

      I’m not that big of a Garza fan, but I would not deal Banuelos for him even if I was. He’s gonna be a top 15-20 prospect this year, and with Matt Moore out of the picture, he’s the best left handed pitching prospect if you ask me. Garza has 1 great year under his belt, and many mediocre ones. Betances is more than enough to cornerstone a deal.

    • Jumpin’ Jack Swisher

      My hunch is that those three aren’t going to get you Garza, so no.

  • Mark L.

    Boston is assembling a premium bullpen to go along with a strong offense and league average rotation
    Tampa continues to produce exceptional young pitching talent but has a weak bullpen and no lineup depth
    Toronto is determined to supplement its potent lineup with top of the rotation talent

    The AL East could end up being the tightest division in baseball yet again.

    • Greg

      I wouldn’t say Boston’s rotation is league average especially since it seems they are thinking about putting Bard in the rotation.

      But your point is well taken

      • MannyGeee

        Boston’s rotation behind Beckett and Lester is weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeak to be kind,

        their bullpen is at best somewhere between mediocre and unproven (with Bailey being the only significant addition)

        and their offense won’t scare me until Ellsbury proves he can do it again and Crawford becomes not a pumpkin.

        So besides that, yup pretty nervous about the Sox.

        • http://www.youcantpredictbaseball.com bexarama

          Meh. You can’t say Ellsbury won’t repeat last year but Crawford’s gonna suck like that again. It’s fair to say that Ellsbury won’t be as good as he was in 2011, but Crawford won’t be as bad.

          also, re: the “premium bullpen,” I’m honestly not sure if it’s any better than it was last year.

          • mbonzo

            I don’t get it, the Red Sox were the best team in the American League all year, but because of a bad month they’ve become far inferior to the Yankees. I gotta say, the clubs are very even, but the Yankees have the depth in their organization that the Red Sox can’t touch.

          • Joe

            If Bard actually does start, it’s likely worse.

            Papelbon + Bard for Melancolm and Bailey is not an upgrade. It’s certainly cheaper (and allows Bard to potentially start but I don’t get where that is better. I guess if Jenks is healthy that’s a bit of a plus (?), but I don’t see where people think this is even equivalent to the pen last year.

            On the plus side for Boston they gave up next to nothing… Lowrie is the only decent player they gave up (and that’s with the “if he’s healthy” tag; however I’m not a huge fan of Reddick…(some people think he’ll be a decent starting OF, I see him more as a platoon guy)

          • MannyGeee

            when I say ‘Ellsbury won’t repeat’ I am talking strictly about the power #s. He will still be a plus defender and steal bags like crazy, because thats his game.

            And all I am saying about Crawford is ‘prove it’… You will assume he will be better, but show me that youre not a pumpkin. JD Drew says hello. He was brought in to be the power hitting savior 5 yrs ago and that didnt exactly pan out.

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike Axisa

      Boston is assembling a premium bullpen…

      They replaced Papelbon, Bard, and Aceves with Bailey and Melancon. Their bullpen has gotten worse.

      • Avi

        They lost Aceves?

        • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike Axisa

          He and Bard are going to start.

          • steve

            I heard they’re starting bubba Crosby in center too

            • Plank

              They’re moving Ortiz to CF.

    • Jumpin’ Jack Swisher

      …..and you expect differently? It is what it is. Go out and win the ballgames.

  • bpdelia

    I say this as a guy who grew ul a big hawk Dawson fan. A guy who gets a little posses when people slag on Dawson. Bug Tim rained was so much f*****g better than Dawson and Jim rice its not even funny. Happy day for me would be larking, trammel and rained all taking their rightful place in the hall.

    At the very least Tim Taine’s needs to be in.

  • bpdelia

    I say this as a guy who grew ul a big hawk Dawson fan. A guy who gets a little pissed when people slag on Dawson. But Tim rained was so much f*****g better than Dawson and Jim rice its not even funny. Happy day for me would be larking, trammel and rained all taking their rightful place in the hall.

    At the very least Tim Taine’s needs to be in.

  • bpdelia

    Damn auto correct and double post. That should read “posses when people slag on Dawson”. The rest stands…….Carry on.

  • tyrone sharpton

    Sox get Bailey…shit

    • whozat

      37% ground balls, only 7.4 K/9 and 3.x BB/9 outside his massive home ballpark. flyball guy moving from a homer-suppressing cavern to a bandbox, with injury problems to boot.

      He’ll probably still be good, but I think that he’s a downgrade from both Papelbon and Bard.

      • RetroRob

        I want to believe that (he won’t be as good away from Oakland), but his home/road career splits, and 2011 alone, don’t show much difference, with one major exception. His strikeout rate at home is much better. I wonder if pitching in a large park somehow impacts his pitch selection. If so, going to a small park could create a problem for him.

        Maybe Boston is trying to find from Oakland’s pen their 2012 version of Keith Foulke from 2004.

    • FIPster Doofus

      Papelbon’s better.

    • Jumpin’ Jack Swisher

      You really thought they were going to let Melancon close? If the plan is Bard to the rotation, and not groomed as closer (I don’t think either would work, honestly), then I don’t see a better option to close currently on that team.

  • bpdelia

    Omfg it did it again…..pissed dammit pissed. If I wanted to write posses, whatever thehell that means, ill write posses

  • Ivan

    “He posted a .299/.395/.429 batting line in pinstripes, a 115 OPS+ that is probably more than I think anyone could have expected back them, his age 36-38 seasons.”

    I am a little bit surprise that he did that well for the Yankees as those numbers indicated. I mean I knew he was a productive player when he did played for the Yankees but looking at those stats he was better than I thought.

  • RetroRob

    BTW, did anyone know that David Price is now arbitration eligible? I thought he was signed under one of those super team-friendly contracts the Rays signed Longoria to, and now Matt Moore. They did sign Price to a contract that seemed to run through 2014, but it had a clause where he could opt out of it as soon as he was arbitration eligible, which he now is. He opted out at the end of October.

    He is going to crush their salary structure. Considering the team-friendly contracts the Rays have passed out, I’m surprised they agreed to this contract because they’ve been paying him much more than MLB minimum wage the past few years when he had no leverage, and now as soon as he is arbitration eligible, he can opt out of his contract (which he did). He’s gotta make between $10-12 million in arbitration, and that’s going to escalate yearly.

    So the question is, what are the Rays going to do, and why aren’t there rumors that he is a likely trade target?

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike Axisa

      They’ll trade him next offseason for something ungodly.

      • RetroRob

        Totally. I now understand the contract. It was the one he originally signed when he was drafted. $8.5 million, including a $5.6 million signing bonus. He was immediately added to the 40-man roster, so that explains why they Rays were “overpaying” him prior to his aribitration years.

        He appears to be under team control through 2015, so year, they will get something ungodly for him based on what we’re seeing this offseason.

        • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike Axisa

          Yeah, his contract allowed him to opt out of the final year and instead file for arbitration, which he did. Instead of making the $1.5M the contract says he should make in 2012, he’ll make about $6M through arbitration. Mark Prior did the same thing back in the day.

          • RetroRob

            Do you think he’ll be limited to about $6M? I was figuring $10M, but my track record on trying to figure out arbitration awards is not stellar. I do see that the record for a first-time pitcher is held by Dontrelle Willis at 4.35MM in 2006, lower than I thought, yet that’s probably because most teams settle before going to arbitration, as I suspect will happen here.

            I guess it comes down to what Price files for, and the fear the Rays have that he might get it. All in all, though, looks like my 10M guess is too high.

            • MannyGeee

              6.5 sounds about right to me. He’s gonna take them to the cleaners.

            • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike Axisa

              Our projection system at MLBTR has hit at $5.9M next year: http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/.....-rays.html

              The system isn’t perfect, but it’s usually within $500K.

              • Need Pitching

                they also project $7.8M here, fwiw
                http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/.....aries.html

                • RetroRob

                  Perhaps they update their projection system after the season ends. Your link is from November, while the prior one was August, I believe.

                • RetroRob

                  Also just noticed they have Brett Gardner projected at $3.3 million, up from 530K. Gardner’s skill set is not something I would think translates well to arbitration hearings. I figured on 1.5M or so his first time up.

                  Guess I’ll be wrong again!

              • Avi

                They’ll never trade him to the Yanks.

  • dkidd

    any player who reaches base 4,000 times is a hall of famer

    why has no one made a “cherington gives billy bean head” joke?

    • Gonzo

      Cherry polished the Beane?

      That’s all I got.

    • Rainbow Connection

      MLBTR covered that about 40,000 times in the comments section.

  • CS Yankee

    Hey i was told last year that the BoSox had a better pen (than the yankees or anyone else)as they signed that fat ChiSox former closer and that fatter O to set-up Bard & Paps. Only that blew up bigger than Jessica Simpson.

    Seems like Sweeney & Reddrick are about the same player except Reddrick has a little more power but a lower BA & OBP. Oakland gets a cheaper, younger (3 years) version of a platoon RF, and some total crap from Boston.

  • Monteroisdinero

    Bailey and Melancon are not my idea of elite shutdown relievers. The Sox have gotten worse here and no lead will be safe for them against us.

    • Steve

      How do you propose they will ever have the lead when Montero is going to hit 4 grand slams per game because he’s better than Babe Ruth in his prime?

      • Monteroisdinero

        I have compared Montero to Miggy and Pujols offensively. I only compared him to Ruth defensively if he were to go to RF in 2013.

    • MannyGeee

      hell, with the last season or 2 of Papelbon, there were not too many safe leads in 2010 or 2011 either…

  • CJ

    Cashman needs to do something creative and aggressive.
    What is the difference between bard and Robertson in starting vs relieving? Mike? Anyone? I remember RAB did a what if piece on Robertson as a starter c

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike Axisa

      What is the difference between bard and Robertson in starting vs relieving?

      Desperation, mostly.

    • CS Yankee

      Creative…NYY not in on the flavor of the day.
      Aggressive…breaking their ATM spending habits.

      • Plank

        ATM has a whole different meaning in my world.

    • FIPster Doofus

      I fully expect Bard to be in the bullpen by the time opening day rolls around. We shall see…

    • mbonzo

      In my opinion, Robertson would make for a much better starter.

      For one Robertson doesn’t rely on overpowering hitters. Bard will see a drop off in his velocity once he starts. Robertson has a bigger pitching repertoire, a dominant curveball and a could fastball variations, very rarely he throws a change up. Thats a typical repertoire for a starter, but I’d prefer if he had a better feel for his change up. Bard throws a hard straight fastball and a very good slider and very rarely a change up. Robertson definitely lines up to be a starter more than Bard.

      • FIPster Doofus

        D-Rob isn’t economical enough, though, what with the poor control and all.

        • mbonzo

          Mostly because he has so much movement on his pitches, and he works on the corners. If he had a plus change up he’d have no problem throwing a fastball down the middle and getting swings and misses. Bard doesn’t have enough movement for that in my opinion. Neither should be starters though.

          • FIPster Doofus

            Agreed. Both are better served in the ‘pen.

            • Jumpin’ Jack Swisher

              Ditto.

  • Troll Hunter

    RE: RED SOX TRADE
    No wonder the A’s have sucked for as long as they have! Why does it seem like teams go out of their way to give the Beantown Hooligans their best young players? The Sux are never forced to give up what other teams do in trades. Very strange.

    • Dave203

      I don’t think they were going to get much more than that from anyone else. Reddick is a ML ready OF prospect that leaves the Sox without a RF next season — unless you rely on Kalish/McDonald platoon (that’s ugly). Bailey carries a lot of questions concerning his health and his significant drop in numbers in 2011. He went from being a 3.9 to 2.4 to 0.9 WAR pitcher. There is nothing certain about Bailey that would command top level prospects for any reason.

      • CS Yankee

        Sweeney should be better with the glove, OBP & BA while costing 3X as much and another 3 years in age.

        I would have thought that a top 5-10 prospect could have been had instaed of their 4th ranked 3B but not sure on the P involved.

        It was a steal, but a petty crime that will likely have little meaning (or so, let’s all hope).

        • Dave203

          None of the OF’s in the discussion (Sweeney/Kalish/McDonald) have played full-time at the ML level. Reddick was looking fairly decent at the end of last year and I think that was a good pickup for Oakland.

          While Bailey is a big name due to his ROY status, that was in 2009 and his stats last yr were far from impressive. He was an average closer last year at best. Move that fly-ball pitcher over to the HR hitting park of Fenway and the AL East, I don’t think Bailey is reenacting 2009/2010 anytime soon.

          • Jumpin’ Jack Swisher

            I agree, Dave. This is simply “Look! They made a deal and we didn’t!”

            They had to make a deal somewhere. I find Bard to be one-dimensional and don’t think Melancon was going to be handed the keys to the ninth inning. The Yankees don’t have to replace a closer…..yet. *gulp*

            • CS Yankee

              I would rather have Reddick in RF than Sweeney overall but this seems like Boston will get Andruw or somebody else (not that it’ll make much difference though).

              Boston’s doesn’t look solid but the fact that they got a ROY & 2-time as closer for their 4th rated 3B & what appears to be a C-class P is a solid trade, IMHO.

              As it stands, the Yankees are in the drivers seat while Boston is looking outside of the Agels & Rays for the final seat.

              I just hope, from a completely spoiled standpoint, that Cash will be brave come late-June if they need a piece or two. Is that too much to ask for?

              • Dave203

                “the fact that they got a ROY & 2-time as closer…”

                While those are the facts, that completely overlooks last yrs deterioration to a sub-1 WAR, 3+ERA, fly-ball pitcher. They need to hope that is blip and not the new norm. IMO, I believe 2011 will be more reflective of his future than his ROY/AS seasons (2009/2010).

            • Guns of Navarone

              I find Bard to be one-dimensional

              When I see Bard, I see a guy with an upper 90s fastball (should sit in the mid 90s as a starter), a swing and miss curveball, and a pretty nasty changeup that made a lot of hitters look silly when they cheated on that 99mph gas. He’s 6’4, he’s started before and I’m pretty sure the Red Sox think he has the endurance to make it deep into games. He’s not without faults but it looks like he has what it takes to be an effective starter.

              • mbonzo

                Bard has 2 effective pitches. A straight high 90’s fastball and a very good slider. He never threw a curveball, and he rarely throws his changeup. (Career 5%)

                • RetroRob

                  A pitcher with a high-90s fastball and a good slider might be able to get by as a starter, but probably not likely unless he has Randy Johnson’s fastball and Ron Guidry’s slider. He’ll need to deploy is changeup more. The fact that he hasn’t thrown it that much isn’t a surprise since he’s a reliever. He’s going to need it as a starter. Not sure how good it is or can be, but it might be his make-or-break pitch.

                  • Plank

                    My only pitch is a wild change-up. It’s very slow and rarely finds the strike zone. It’s more of an eephus pitch actually. I don’t think any team is interested in my services. Anyway, fingers crossed. Maybe this is the year.

                    I’m also waiting to be drafted as starting point guard for the New York Knicks. I am very slow and my D can only be described as porous. I’m 5’11” and I shoot about 20% from the 3 point line and about 30% from the Free Throw line when I’m playing with my buddies.

                    Anyway, what were we talking about?

                  • Monteroisdinero

                    Sounds like Joba once was. He will not succeed as a starter but by all means give it a try (again).

              • MannyGeee

                I dont think that Bard has the control to be an effective starter. my fondest memories of him are all those blown holds from lack of control.

                To me he is like AJ with more gas and less hook. He may make me look foolish in a few months, but I’m not buying…

  • Jumpin’ Jack Swisher

    Tim Raines should be in the goddamn Hall of Fame. One of the top five basestealers ever.

    • bankers hours

      Tim Raines has no chance and shouldn’t be in the Hall of Fame. Try and compare his career vs Bernie Williams and tell me who was the better player. No contest, it was Bernie and he has no chance at the Hall of Fame. Bernie played hundreds of meaningful games on the biggest stage in centerfield for the Yankees through 4 World Championships while batting cleanup. Bernie won a batting title. His playoff numbers are great and his character was impeccable. Bernie won’t get in and can someone tell me why Raines who compiles numbers playing in obscurity his whole career should get it, please.

      • Pat D

        Really not sure if you’re serious or trolling, but here goes.

        Bernie Williams: .297/.381/.477, 2336 H, 1366 R, 449 2B, 55 3B, 287 HR, 1257 RBI, 147 SB, 87 CS, 62.8 SB%, 1069 BB, 1212 K, 125 OPS+. Made 5 All-Star games, won 4 Gold Gloves and 1 Silver Slugger. Won the batting title once, only other black ink is for leading in IBB in 1999. MVP finishes: 7th, 10th, 11th, 13th and 17th twice. 47.3 bWAR (59.3 oWAR, -12.0 dWAR), 47.5 fWAR (again with great numbers offensively and terrible numbers defensively).

        Tim Raines: .294/.385/.425, 2605 H, 1571 R, 430 2B, 113 3B, 170 HR, 980 RBI, 808 SB, 146 CS, 84.7 SB%, 1330 BB, 966 K, 123 OPS+. Made 7 All-Star games, won 1 Silver Slugger. Won the batting title once. Also led the league in runs twice, doubles once, OBP once and steals 4 times. MVP finishes: 5th, 6th, 7th, 11th, 12th, 17th, 19th. Rookie of the Year runner-up. 64.6 bWAR (64.8 oWAR, -0.2 dWAR), 70.9 fWAR (about the same breakdown as his bWAR).

        So, yea, Raines has better numbers. Bernie’s postseason numbers don’t equalize the regular season differences. And all of your other “arguments” are ridiculous.

        • Lazerri Scooter

          Nah, I fail to see how your argument proved Raines the better player. If anything, their regular season numbers are a wash and sorry Pat but the Postseason stats do indeed factor in plenty.

          If you believe Raines should be in, I do as well, can’t see how Bernie doesn’t deserve just the honor as well.

          • whozat

            Your counterargument is “nah”?

            Compelling.

          • Pat D

            Bernie Williams was a very good postseason performer, but a fairly lousy World Series performer.

            So we can dissect that as well.

            Here’s why Bernie won’t get in:
            1) He doesn’t have the nice, round counting numbers
            2) A lot of writers will say he wasn’t even the best player on his own team
            3) Last great season at age 33
            4) Peak too short (essentially 1995-2002)

  • Plank

    I just spent 20 minutes looking at Barry Bonds’ 2004. That guy was incredible. I feel confident saying we will never see a performance like that again.

    • Plank

      In any of our lifetimes.

      • Rainbow Connection

        I’ll see it again, but during someone else’s lifetime.

    • Avi

      His age 39/40 season. It’s pretty much impossible that he did it without A LOT of help.

      • mbonzo

        Hank Aaron hit .301/.402/.643 with 40 homeruns when he was 39. He was also probably on steroids and amphentamines. Yes, I’m serious.

    • Lazerri Scooter

      Sure, you will. It was not in any a sense a pure performance on any actual ability. Definitely was molded around illegally enhanced substances that tainted the results.

      Bonds was never the player he became UNTIL the envious jerk decided to immate McGwire/Sosa and transformed his natural self.

      Thus, no one, not even the narcissist Giants outfielder, thought his latter career performance was possible. So how hard is it to believe any great player can take the right “vitamins” and go all Ruthian.

      It will happen again and patiently wait for the day it arrives. The sooner someone surplants any and every memory of that bigoted, bastard Bonds from our collective memory the better.

      Perhaps, you could stare at some great seasons by all-time legends who were not universally reviled and convicted felons.

      Ya’know like Stan Musial, Willie Mays or Frank Robinson?

      • Plank

        No one was that player ever in the history of the game.

        He was better than Pujols when he was with the Pirates, a decade before he got accused of taking steroids.

        But whatever, I was just looking at the numbers. I don’t want to get into a steroid debate.

      • nsalem

        The only reason that Frank Robinson in not a convicted felon is that brandishing a pistol in a diner, or carrying a concealed weapon on an airplane were not considered felonies if you played for the Cincinnati Reds and the incidents happened in the state of Ohio,

    • MannyGeee

      butbutbut…. MONTERO!!!!

      • Steve

        And it will be doubly impressive when Montero does it in his rookie season because he will be making so little money. Not to mention the fact that Bonds pulled most of his home runs whereas Montero will hit them opposite field.

  • theyankeewarrior

    “The Cubs seem to be prioritizing young starting pitching in talks about Garza”

    We have tons. Please acquire.

  • gargoyle

    Are those fans in the seats behind the dugout?