Doubt grows in LA

July 24, 2008 by Benjamin Kabak 93 Comments

Across the nation on the West Coast, the Dodgers are in second place, just one game behind the D-Backs. But by many accounts, their season has not been a success. They’re three games under .500, and as Ian O’Connor writes, Joe Torre doesn’t look so hot anymore. Sure, Frank McCourt killed a deal for CC Sabathia. Sure, Ned Colletti will probably take the blame. Los Angeles, however, expected more from Joe. I was surprised when Torre took this LA job. It was a no-win situation for him because, while the pressure wasn’t as high as it was in New York, anything short of a World Series would be both a disappointment and an admission that perhaps Torre isn’t as great an on-field manager as many think he was while in the Bronx.

Stephen

I think with the success of the bullpen this year, especially that of Veras, Ramirez, and Karl Finesworth, shows how badly Torre mishandled the bullpen in recent years. Maybe Edwar and Jose Veras just matured this year, but the fact that the Yankees have tons of relief innings pitched bt nobody in the top-10 of reliever innings pitched is a testament to Joe Giradi.
- BurnBernieBurn
  
  I agree, Girardi has consistently worked pitchers in to the mix, getting them consistent apearances without blowing out their arms. I ahve also always been a fan of the more outspoken manager, and loved having Bowa on the team last year. In that respect, I love that Girardi is a bulldog and speaks his mind.
  - Chris
    
    Why aren’t people talking about Eiland as being the key to the bullpen success? I agree that Girardi is far better with the bullpen than Torre, but you also have to give some credit to Eiland for getting the guys to mature and be ready to pitch.
    - http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos
      
      Credit Eiland, but the biggest difference, IMO, is that Girardi shows faith in his relievers, ALL OF THEM, and continues to trust in their stuff and give them innings and opportunities to succeed or fail… and then he builds them up and gives them more shots until they’ve truly proven they can’t do it. Even when some of us here (like me) said he was Krazy to do so (like with Kyle), he kept faith and it’s paid off.
      
      It’s worked for most (Veras, Edwar, The Human Sandwich Pick, Robertson, Giese, etc.) but not for all (LaTroy, Ohlendorf), but at least he had the foresight to stick with the bigger plan and not keep running out a Quantrill or a Sturtze while letting other guys rot, and the benefit is, for the first time since the title years, we will be heading into the postseason with more than two reliable options in relief.
- A.D.
  
  I mean I’m sure Edwar and Veras are better than they are a year ago, partly because of a year of experience, and partly because they got regular innings, but that alone doesn’t explain why Torre would over use guys, warm up Tom Gordon in the 7th up by 5, sure, why not. Go to Proctor down 4 in the 8th when he’s thrown the past 2 days, of course!
  
  Torre is bad at managing a bullpen, but so are many older managers (see Lou Pinella) part of it is lack of depth, part of it is lack of understanding
Count Zero

I would have to agree with O’Connor — there is simply no valid excuse for the Dodgers not winning the NL West. Anything less would be an indictment of Torre’s managerial skills.
A.D.

Obviously they’ve had some underperformace that is partly the leaderships fault, Andruw Jones shouldn’t be paid that money, and Jeff Kent is well past it.

In reality Loney, Kemp, Either, Martin, and Kent’s shell should be able to get it done, and even with Penny out, they still have Billingsley, Kuroda, D-Lowe, and Kershaw, Penny coming back, and a decent bullpen (even with Saito)… they should be .500, which would put them in 1st place
TurnTwo

the Post has the Dodgers interested in reuniting Cano with Torre and Bowa in LA, and willing to deal Lowe and Kemp as a potential package back to NY.

i think at this point, the Dodgers can still pull it off, but i feel as though its more on the players than Torre and the staff.
- A.D.
  
  I would NEVER do that deal
- Geno
  
  I’d be willing to ship Cano out to LA, but Kershaw’s name would have to be included in the deal. If it had to be something like Cano & Kennedy for Kemp and Kershaw, I’d still do it. Pairing up Kershaw and Joba in the rotation would just be too tempting too pass up.
  - Old Ranger
    
    Cano only for kemp/Kershaw, we shouldn’t have to over pay for every trade we make. Adding IPK is just to much, Kershaw is not that good…era is over 4.00, in the NL, what would it be in AL East? 27/08??
    - http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos
      
      Jesus, people need to remember PERSPECTIVE. Clayton Kershaw is 20 YEARS OLD pitching in the major leagues. Give him some time. A Joba like level of early success, particularly for a pitcher, is the exception and far, far from the norm.
      
      He’s a big lefty with a power fastball and a sick curve. He’s filthy good.
    - http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=594331910 Jamal G.
      
      “Kershaw is not that good…era is over 4.00”
      
      I really want to believe you are not basing your evaluation of Clayton Kershaw based on 41.2-IP as a 20-year-old.
      - DP
        
        The same crowd that are already evaluating Hughes as a #3 and Kennedy as a bust…idiots
      - Old Ranger
        
        Just pointing out, that one can’t trade a Cano for someone that we already have (many good arms in A, AA, AAA). We all know the names of the up and comers we already have. Kershaw would be nice, but not for Cano+. Cano will be the 2nd basemen for 10/12 years, unless injury cuts him down, he is a 4 tool player…quick, but no speed. Projecting Kershaw as a # 1-2 starter (as we have Phil) or a Stud is good, but it is a projection…not fact, yet. 27/08??
        
        Rob_in_CT
        
        I don’t want to trade Cano either, but… Kershaw is a fantastic young pitcher.
        
        The Dodgers would never do that deal anyway, so it’s pointless… they’re not THAT stupid.
  - A.D.
    
    That would certainly be more intriguing, Kershaw will be a stud. But I’m pretty sure the Yanks are going to keep Cano.
  - http://yankeesetc.blogspot.com/ Travis G.
    
    you would HAVE to trade Cano and Kennedy for Kershaw, but LA would never do it. throw in Ajax and MAYBE they consider it.
- Alan
  
  Ha. Ha. Haha. Thanks for giving me my laugh this morning. While I think Matt Kemp is a very good player, Cano is worth much more given the position he plays. Corner outfielders grow on trees, second basemen don’t.
  
  I’m also not that high on Derek Lowe. In four starts against the AL this year, he got hammered except for a 1-0 loss to the Angels. He eats innings yes, but if he’s giving up 4+ runs a game to AL opponents what’s the point? He hasn’t pitched in the AL since 2004, where he was awful. His move to the NL bolstered his stats but they’ve been trending towards the worse with each passing season.
  
  In short, no thanks.
- Ivan
  
  I wouldn’t do that deal. If the Dodgers soured on Kemp like that then something is up. Kemp has a big upside but has yet to put it together (hard to do that when you don’t work counts and walk)
  
  I wouldn’t do that deal, Plus, I still think Cano upside with the bat is higher than Kemp.
  - xkevinx
    
    “Kemp has a big upside but has yet to put it together (hard to do that when you don’t work counts and walk)
    
    I wouldn’t do that deal, Plus, I still think Cano upside with the bat is higher than Kemp.”
    
    Odd that your statement on walks and working counts is more true for Cano than for Kemp – roughly twice as many walks in the same number of at bats this season
    
    I personally would do the deal. Lowe would help this year(huge upgrade over Ponson/Rasner), and would net 2 draft picks after the year. With the yankees willingness to go over slot, thats 2 premium prospects. Plus Kemp hits leftys – another big plus for this season.
    - Ivan
      
      But Cano is a All-Star player who has put up some very good #’s. Kemp hasn’t done that period.
      - xkevinx
        
        Have you looked at the numbers? Smaller sample size, but Kemp is also 2 years younger. Career Statistics:
        
        Kemp: .302/.344/.480 (OPS .824)
        
        Cano: .305/.338/.471 (OPS .809)
        
        Plus, Kemp is a threat on the basepaths. His real downside is his high K rate, but he has far superior plate discipline than Cano.
        
        I love Cano, but I still believe that the Dodgers would be more reluctant to do this deal than the Yankees.
        
        http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos
        
        You’d be wrong. The Dodgers would do Kemp for Cano straight up in a heartbeat.
        
        Offensively, they’re virtually the same, but Cano is a much better defender at a more important defensive position.
- http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos
  
  Cano is untouchable. Even in the midst of his horrid three month stretch to begin this season, this should never have been a question.
  
  I advocated for trading for Santana, CC, and lots of other deals. In none of them would I ever include a career .305/.338/.471 plus-fielding middle infielder who has 206 career XBH and doesn’t turn 26 until October.
  - Ivan
    
    Why do people wanna trade Cano? Get off the guy’s back. Appreciate the guy.
  - Old Ranger
    
    I don’t think I would go that far, but you are mostly right. I wouldn’t trade Cano at all, but had to show that it could be done (above)…but mostly to point out the absurdity of our overpaying in trades.
    Players such as Cano, A-Rod, Jeter even Jorge come along once in a blue moon. When you have them, you keep them…unless your Agent is Boris (or what ever). 27/08??
    - Bo
      
      The Yankees lack any kind of high level infield talent. Why would they trade a 25 yr old all star 2b?
      
      Cashman hasn’t traded a top guy in years and hes going to start now with Cano? Who replaces him at 2b this yr? The AG? Ransom?
      
      Please.
      
      No kidding Torre wants Cano. Why wouldn’t he?
    - http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=594331910 Jamal G.
      
      I would trade Robinson Cano in a heartbeat. You offer me any one of David Price, Tim Lincecum, Matt Weiters, Clayton Kershaw, Felix Hernandez, Yovani Gallardo, Francisco Liriano, Brian McCann, Scott Kazmir, or Justin Upton (and these guys are just off the top of my head) and I would probably injure myself running to sign-off on that deal.
      - http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos
        
        Lincecum, King Felix, Liriano, Kazmir, McCann and Upton, yes. (Although I worry about injuries with Lincecum and Liriano…)
        
        I don’t know if I’d sign off on Wieters, Gallardo, Price or Kershaw just yet… they haven’t proven and sustained anything at the big league level so far. I’m with you in thinking, because all of them project to be really, really good… but so does Cano.
        
        Again, we’re talking about a guy in Cano who’s floor is probably a .305 average and 60 XBH at second base… that’s his floor. There’s still a real good chance he gets better as he gets older and stronger. He’s probably two years shy of his prime yet.
        
        FWIW, Chase Utley (who physically is Cano’s mirror image) hit .239/.322/.373 and .266/.308/.468 in his 24 and 25 seasons before he exploded on the league in his third year at age 26… Cano did .297/.320/.458 and .342/.365/.525 in his first seasons, two full years younger than Utley, and then followed that up with .306/.353/.488 last year.
        
        I’ll grant you that the Dr. Jekyll act he pulled to start ’08 gives pause, but Cano is just a sick, sick hitter, and he’s still learning the league and getting stronger. It’s not a stretch at all to think he can be a #3 hitter, right in front of ARod, for most of the 2010’s.
        
        Yes, there are some other really talented guys that you’d part with Cano to get, but I’d never describe myself trading Cano “in a heartbeat”. I’d deal Cano with trepidation, because you could be trading away an perennial MVP candidate.
        
        http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos
        
        (Price is really fucking nasty, though.)
        
        http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=594331910 Jamal G.
        
        Don’t get me wrong, Robinson Cano is my favorite player on the Yankees (that includes Mariano and A-Rod, yes, a Yankee fan who names A-Rod as one of his favorite players, gasp!) so I understand and fully believe in his potential. That being said, I value young, front-line potential starters and middle-of-the-diamond power bats who are 25 and under over anything. Obviously Cano fits that criteria but if you want to get more detailed I value Catchers and Short Stops offensively over Center Fielders and Second Basemen.
        
        I love Robbie Cano’s potential and current skill-set but I would trade him for those guys listed in a heartbeat because I value them more than Cano.
        
        http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=594331910 Jamal G.
        
        BTW, I know Justin Upton is a RF but his bat is scary, scary good.
        
        http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos
        
        I’m with you.
        
        Old Ranger
        
        The name of the game is; Strong up the middle. 27/08??
      - Ivan
        
        I’ll trade Cano for those guys except Gallardo, Price, Liriano and Kershaw.
Scott

I heart Joe Torre, he can do no wrong…
- Alan
  
  Scott Proctor disagrees.
  - george kaplan
    
    Bah! Scott Proctor is a blowhard. He should be honored that he got the chance to pitch in pinstripes.
    - Scott
      
      Scott Proctor should be happy that he was traded for Robin Ventura
Ivan

Dodgers have had some injuries especially the huge lost of furcal. That said, I picked this team to win the division before the season started and picked them to represent the NL at the WS. First off, Arizona are not that good and are overrated. Dodgers on talent alone, are one of the more talented teams in the NL and have a legit rotation and bullpen.

Does Torre deserve some blame, who knows but this team shouldn’t be underachieving like this.

Plus, LA have one of the higher Payrolls in baseball.

For some reason the Dodgers seem to underachieve more times than not over the years.
Adam

when are people going to learn that the effect of a manager on a teams winning percentage is quite largely overstated. the difference between a good manager and a bad manager on a given team is likely not more than a few wins, yet managerial signings are always made out huge deals. who said that joe torre was a good manager anyway?
- steve (different one)
  
  who said that joe torre was a good manager anyway?
  
  umm, like everyone in the NY media for the last decade? do you not remember the shitstorm when he left this winter? beat writers like Abraham who still take every single opportunity to snipe at Girardi b/c Papa Joe was nicer to reporters and didn’t seem to have the anti ice cream agenda that Girardi has?
  
  Torre wasn’t as good as his supporters think or as bad as his detractors think. he was the right manager at the right time from 1996-2001. since then he’s gotten a little lazy and i think it was time for a change.
  
  if nothing else, Girardi is just as competent and cost $4M less. Torre’s contract demands were getting absurd.
- BurnBernieBurn
  
  “who said that joe torre was a good manager anyway?”
  
  Woah there…I have my problems with Torre, but not a good manager? The fact of the matter is that he won. Other teams spend a lot of money, and they don’t win. Other teams have a bunch of all stars and they don’t win. Torre certainly had his shortcomings, and he was far from the best there ever was, but for god’s sake, any Yankees fan who had the honor of watching those teams win four world series owes joe something.
  - BurnBernieBurn
    
    That being said, I wholeheartedly agree with steve(different one) that it was time for a change. I wouldn’t trade the time he managed for anyone else though.
  - Old Ranger
    
    I also must agree with Steve (DO).
    Joe T had the right players at the right time…right place, right time. He seemed to be a hands off guy. Make out the line-up and let them play. 27/08??
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

Top Ten Reasons Joe Torre Quit the Yankees (Letterman, 10/19/07)

10. Yankees wanted to pay him in Radio Shack gift certificates
9. Got caught stealing rosin bags
8. Joining the cast of Broadway musical “Legally Blonde”
7. Wants to manage a winning team like the Colorado Whatever-Their-Name-Is
6. Couldn’t bear the grind of sitting on his ass watching baseball another second
5. Looking to focus on managing his fantasy baseball team
4. Wants to go someplace more peaceful — like Fallujah
3. $5 million a year — How’s a man supposed to live?
2. Doesn’t want to be working when he’s 90, like Letterman
1. Even Yogi Berra told him “It’s Over”
Bo

Who did Torre have to work with in the pen the past few years?

Edwar cried after getting shelled. Farnsworth was horrendous. He had Veras for a week. No Robertson.

Torre’s pen management looked damn good after Aug 1 when Joba was pitching.

I also havent heard anyone complain about Torre’s pen handling from 96-2003.
- steve (different one)
  
  whatever, i am tired of this argument, but it is fairly unbelievable to me to think that people still don’t see how Torre couldn’t manage a bullpen.
  
  go back and look at Vizcaino’s game log. look at some of the games he came into. the guy was way overworked and was used in 6-7-8 run games. ditto for Proctor the year before.
  
  Torre managed his bullpen by going to his “trusted” guys over and over regardless of who else needed work or who was overworked.
  
  it is the single most glaring difference between Torre and Girardi.
  
  you know why Edwar cried? b/c the first time he gave up a run, he sat for TWO WEEKS. completely inexcusable.
  
  he pulled the same shit with Britton.
  
  is it any surprise that Viz and Gordon were gassed when the playoffs came around? did he really need Gordon with a 19-8 lead in game 3 of the 2004 ALCS??
  
  he had his “circle of trust” and that was that.
  
  he wasn’t a bad manager, but this was his weakness.
- http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=594331910 Jamal G.
  
  “Edwar cried after being shelled” Because Torre decided he was a black sheep for 18 days. “Torre’s pen management looked damn good after Aug. 1 when Joba was pitching” Because he was told how to use him.
  
  Just because you “havent heard anyone complain about Torre’s pen handling from 96-2003” doesn’t mean there were no complaints. You just were not aware of them.
- A.D.
  
  Trust me his pen management was poor, yeah it gets overshadowed because they won more times and not, but it really doesn’t make it better. It helped that he had Lloyd, Stanton, Nelson, and Rivera, but after that he didn’t trust anyone
Axl

Look at the entire NL West. Something else must be going on there. To have 3 teams in the NL West go down to the wire into the playoffs…and then have EVERY SINGLE NL West team fail to even reach .500 nearly 5-10 games after the All Star break?? You’re telling me it’s all coincidence??

If it is, that’s some coincidence. I think they’re all just young players and are inconsistent and the rest of the leagues and picking up on how to pitch to these young guys. They’re adjusting and the young guys need a way to adjust back.

As for the injuries, there’s nothing you can do about that. Torre knows first hand about injuries on the team.
- radnom
  
  lol what are you saying? Conspiracy?
  
  WAKE UP SHEEPLE
  - http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos
    
    Soylent Green is people.
    - Andy In Sunny Daytona Beach
      
      It tasted good, apparently.
http://riveraveblues.com/2008/07/23/mussina-yanks-roll-over-twins-3366/#comments yankee21

A good hitting, excellent fielding 2B like Cano is tougher to replace than a corner hitting OF (like Kemp) who doesn’t strike me as anywhere the potential of an impact player. Even if this were a valid current offer, if I’m the Yankees, I walk away, unless the Dodgers want to expand the pie. Russel Martin or Looney as part of a more comprehensive trade package.

Jamal, I agree with trading Cano for the premier choices you listed, except for Liriano- he needs to prove he is the high ceiling talent he once show-cased, given the injury and surgery he had.
Simon B.

With no emotions involved, I might do the trade for Kemp/Kershaw. I’m not quite sure, and it’s hard to give up a player with such great offense (in spite of his first half), great defense at a premium position, and a great smile.

I am a bit skeptical of Kershaw. He’s an excellent young prospect, no doubt, but I think he’s been hyped a bit too much because of Koufax comparisons. I’m reluctant to rank a guy so highly when such a vital part of his game is below-average—his control/command. His fastball/curve are good, but they aren’t as good as hyped, and he lacks a consistent third pitch.
- TurnTwo
  
  if you were to do Kemp/Kershaw, then youd have to send back more than Cano.
  
  but if Cashman could somehow pry away Kershaw in a deal, he’d be a hero in NY.
  - Simon B.
    
    True, but mostly because Kershaw is overvalued right now.
    - TurnTwo
      
      overvalued? surely, you jest.
      
      could you imagine the potential of having Joba and Kershaw in this rotation for the next 5 years?
      - Simon B.
        
        I’d rather have Price. Kershaw has too many holes in his game at this point. Maybe he corrects them, but rushing him as Colletti has done doesn’t help him much.
        
        BurnBernieBurn
        
        And I’d rather sleep with Eva Longoria then Rosie O’Donell, but it’s just unrealistic (I like to think I could get the latter). Saying I’d rather have Price is stupid because you could offer Tampa ARod and they would say no (probably not but you get my point).
        
        http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=594331910 Jamal G.
        
        He’s 20-years-old dude, you saying he has too many holes in his game means nothing. He is 20-years-old! He is a LHP that can sit 93-95MPH and throws a beautiful hammer. Oh, did I mention he is 20-years-old!
        
        Simon B.
        
        He’s a very good prospect, but he isn’t that good.
        
        Hughes, at the same age, had similar stuff (a little less velocity, but circa end of ’06, beginning of ’07 I’d say his curve was better), and his control/command was a thousand times better.
        
        Simon B.
        
        It’s another one of my pet peeves how much people emphasize age in projection. It’s important, but you can’t assume things will work out just because a guy is young for his league.
        
        “He’s 20, and he has a very good stuff, so all he has to do is improve his command and he’ll be a stud.”
        
        That’s a very tenuous assumption that he’ll improve a massive flaw in his game just because he’s young. Kershaw is a very good prospect. Once again, I’m not denying that, but he’s just one of many.
        
        http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos
        
        Jamal’s comment here isn’t that Kershaw’s a lock for greatness because he’s 20, as much as it’s a comment that him being 20 and in the major leagues at all is a testimony to his talent level, since most players aren’t good enough to sniff the majors at 20, and that it’s a reminder that any lack of success he’d have at the ML level doesn’t portend much since he still has tons of growing, maturing, and refining to do.
        
        Ultimately, both Hughes and Kershaw have to prove it, but the fact that they both conquered the lower levels at made it to the show at such a young age is the real story of the two, and it validates that they’re both big time talents.
Mike W.

LOL at all the people in this thread saying they wouldn’t do a Cano + deal for Kemp and Kershaw. It baffles me how people think…

A 2011 rotation of Joba, Kershaw, Hughes, Brackman, Cole would have the potential to be absolutely SICK… (and we would get Kemp too, who is a great young hitter)
- Alan
  
  Doesn’t really matter because if Colletti were to trade Kershaw and Kemp, Dodgers fans would burn down Chavez Ravine and publicly execute the entire Dodgers front office.
- http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos
  
  IF, and that’s a huge if, all of them stay (or get) healthy, we would have a sick staff… and every game would be a 2-1 loss, because we’d have no offense.
  
  It’s a moot point anyway; the Dodgers aren’t moving Kershaw for nothing. He’s their Joba.
  
  Trading Cano for Kemp would be a horrible, horrible idea. We’d be getting jobbed. The only way to balance the trade out would be to add Kershaw, which the Dodgers wouldn’t do because he’s even more untouchable than Cano is, and then they’d be getting jobbed. So just forget it.
  
  That’s why, like I said, Cano is untouchable – because the only people you would potentially trade him for are for other young studs who are equally untouchable.
  - Mike W.
    
    Your points about Joba are exactly why I said I was laughing when people say they wouldn’t trade Cano for a deal involving Kershaw. He is their Joba. The way people who are yankee fans idolize Joba would make me think we would want another pitcher like that around here…
    - Simon B.
      
      Kershaw isn’t particularly close to Joba in real value right now. Joba has superior stuff, control, and track record.
      
      That said, notice I did say I would take the Kemp/Kershaw deal.
    - BurnBernieBurn
      
      “We’d be getting jobbed.”
      
      Instead of saying “jobbed”, I would like a movement to start saying “We’d be getting Zambrano’d”. That trade should never be forgotten, and adding it to the English language is as good a way as any to immortalize it.
      - http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos
        
        Zambranoed. I like it. It’s a good way to describe an idea that sucks so bad and so thoroughly, it’s downright varitekian.
        
        BurnBernieBurn
        
        haha
dkidd

we should trade bobby meacham and latroy for larry bowa
- http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos
  
  I don’t think that’s enough for Bowa. We may have to throw in Shelly Duncan.
Rob_in_CT

Cano + IPK for Kemp + Kershaw is probably a good deal for the Yanks. I couldn’t do it, because I love Robinson Cano… but the upside there is significant. Cano and Kemp are pretty close (edge Cano on position), but Kershaw >>> Kennedy. I like IPK, but his upside is nowhere near Kershaw.
- xkevinx
  
  No way LA would do this
- http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos
  
  It is a good deal for the Yanks, and a horrid one for the Dodgers. So it won’t happen.
  
  Names that shouldn’t be mentioned here again as targets in trade talks until there’s real, substantiated, actual buzz from a genuine source and not just a poster on a blog somewhere, present company included, because they won’t be traded:
  Jay Bruce
  Joey Votto
  Edinson Volquez
  Johnny Cueto
  Homer Bailey
  Colby Rasmus
  Clayton Kershaw
  James Loney
  David Price
  Matt Wieters
  Andrew McCutchen
  Ryan Doumit
  Luke Hochevar
  Zack Grienke
  Max Ramirez
  Taylor Teagarden
  Jarrod Saltalamacchia
  Cameron Maybin
  Fransisco Liriano
  Tim Lincecum
  - Alan
    
    Second.
    - Stephen
      
      Keith Law answered a question on that and said there would be no way he would trade billingsley or kershaw for cano and the dodgers woul dbe crazy to do that.
dkidd

anyone else miss bowa? terrible manager, great third base coach/infield instructor
- BurnBernieBurn
  
  I am still in withdrawal…No offense to Meach, but I grew up in Philly, and I think I may be the only one there who still loves Bowa.
dkidd

the man (bowa) was cut from his high school team twice. twice! and he ended up with more career hits than don mattingly
- BurnBernieBurn
  
  He’s a freak
LiveFromNewYork

The thing about Joe Girardi is he has more patience and foresight than most of the Yankee faithful. He has done a good job with people like Farnsworth and Giambi when others (myself included) were calling for their heads. And Girardis. I was pretty upset with him a few times this season.

I think we were used to non-moves by Torre meaning he just wasn’t paying attention or thinking about it whereas a non-move by Girardi means he’s giving someone the chance to succeed.

I think Girardi was/is the right choice to manage the Yankees.

I think Eiland deserves a lot of credit but Girardi is sailing the ship.
- http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos
  
  True.
  
  Many times back in March, April, and May I thought Girardi was a stupid chowderhead. Turns out he was right and I was the stupid chowderhead.
- Alan
  
  I’m pleased with Girardi’s use of the bullpen, out of all that he’s done so far this year. He’s given everyone their chance to shine, even gave Bruney some important innings (prior to his injury, of course) when everyone thought that was insanity. I’m enjoying this season, but I’m real excited about what next year brings for us.
dkidd

i agree. transitioning to a younger/cheaper/more homegrown team means sending some kids out there and seeing what they’ve got (i.e. robertson’s 45 pitch inning last month). i love torre, but he managed to win every day, whatever the long term cost. girardi is the perfect manager to oversee the transition to a more sustainable model
LiveFromNewYork

The thing is I loved Joe Girardi as a catcher and wasn’t surprised when he managed the Marlins and was manager of the year and wound up getting fired. As all Yankee fans who see him as an important part of the 90s dynasty, I was outraged he was treated so badly. I really liked that the Yankees hired him.

He had a HUGE HUGE HUGE place to fill coming in after Torre and he was given a team full of veterans, many who never played for anyone but Torre and youngsters who were being thrown into the spotlight.

The team has been plagued by injuries, horrific scheduling and bad weather and yet they are on the cusp of moving into the division lead. (we hope) It’s not yet August and they’re making a legitimate run for it with a hobbled team.

I’m not going to jump into being a blind Girardi supporter, but because I spent a few weeks bashing him pretty good, I feel obligated to give him bunches of kudos right now.

I also think that if there was a midge attack on a rookie in a playoff game, Girardi would be stopping the game. I’m feeling good about his tendency to protect his players.
- BurnBernieBurn
  
  Best example of this was when he held the meeting to clearlygive the team a verbal lashing, and every time he was asked what teh talk was about he didn’t give some bullshit answer he just kept saying “that’s between me and my players.”
  That was the turning point for me,
http://RiverAve.Blues Joseph M

The Yanks are well rid of Torre, I wish the Dodgers no ill will but I was delighted to see him go. Torre was never anything more than an average in game manager, his value came from his ability to maintain a stable enviroment and becoming the public face of the organization. Something happened along the way as it does with most managers and coaches and his ability to motivate players faded. As the decade rolled along the team seemed soft, unprepared, easily discouraged, lacking in character when they were standing eyeball to to eyeball against teams at their level. For a manager that brought little to the party in terms of in game skills, his inability to motivate the team in October could no longer be ignored. Torre was the highest paid manager in the game by more than double what the manager in second place made, he had the highest priced roster of talent, and as the bible says, to those who much are given, much will be expected.
nil

Woa what bad fans you guys are!, he got 4 rings, but you guys are still bashing him. The bullpen is good as now because of Cashman with his new farm system.

Just look at the stat of pitchers from Scranton and Trenton 2 years ago! They are horrible, no Joba, no Giese, No David, no Stricland… The best ERA is around 4, thus how you do with those pitchers?