What do you take us for? A fool?

Ponson pounded as Yanks drop a game
Xavier Nady VII

According to Kat O’Brien, the Mariners must think the Yankees are complete and utter fools. A few days after acquiring Xavier Nady and Damaso Marte for pennies on the dollar, the Mariners are holding back on dealing all of Jarrod Washburn’s contract to the Yanks because they want Hank Steinbrenner to step in and demand the Yanks acquire the starter. Clearly, the Mariners have not been paying attention. While Hanks is adept at running his mouth, all his words do are garner headlines. No moves or signings have been consummated or rushed after Hank issues his diatribes. It’s actually rather effective, and the Mariners are deluding themselves if they feel Hank is going to cause a sea change in thinking over Jarrod Washburn. MLBTR speculates that the M’s want Brett Gardner or Melky Cabrera.

Ponson pounded as Yanks drop a game
Xavier Nady VII
  • Jake

    The Mariner’s ineptness continues to amaze me.

    • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

      Hold on. I agree that they’re demands are pretty farfetched, but I wouldn’t call what the M’s are doing “inept”.

      The reason many people don’t get what they want in negotiations is because they don’t ask for it. We harp on Billy Beane (among others) asking for our best prospects in trades, but it’s the smart thing to do: ask for the moon and then settle for stars. If the M’s demand an A-level prospect for Washburn, they figure maybe they can pry away a C-level prospect. If all they ask for is a C, they’ll probably end up with an F.

      There’s a few days left before the deadline, and they’re just trying to maximize their return before they pull the trigger. Even if it doesn’t work (and it probably won’t, they’ll still end up with that F), there’s virtually no harm in trying.

      Not inept. Annoying, perhaps, but not inept.

      • steve (different one)

        i agree.

        the Mariners have money. they don’t HAVE to trade Washburn.

        don’t forget that they will have another chance to trade him in the offseason.

        if Washburn keeps pitching the way he has been pitching for 2 months, i would imagine he would be pretty attractive to teams as he would essentially be on a 1 year contract.

        even if the Mariners kicked in $2M, they would be trading a #4 starter on a 1 year, $8M contract.

        they could possibly get something back in that case.

      • Casper

        Ok this is an area of interest for me so forgive my foray into academia here… In a negotiation your initial demands may be higher than what you’d be comfortable settling for, but there IS a limit to how that tactic should be used. Parties in a negotiation, especially sophisticated parties as one would imagine MLB front-offices to be, send each other signals through their offers and counter-offers. The risk you run in making what you are sure to be perceived as unrealistic offers by the adverse party is that the adverse party will leave the negotiation either out of annoyance, anger, or simply because they do not think you are serious about makign a deal in good-faith. In addition, there are reputation factors at play. Negotiators who make bad-faith offers and are not perceived by their peers to be serious nor fair and risk finding themselves without trading/negotiating partners (i.e. there are future ramifications).

        So, while I hear you and agree that just because a team makes the Yanks an offer we deem insufficient that doesn’t mean they are not willing to work towards a fair resolution… Asking for an A-prospect for a Jarrod Washburn is also not necessarily an advisable nor fair negotiating tactic. Whether their tactics rise to the level of being labeled “inept” is a subjective matter, but depending on the outcome of this situation, that label may in fact be fair.

        • steve (different one)

          Asking for an A-prospect for a Jarrod Washburn is also not necessarily an advisable nor fair negotiating tactic.

          sure, but Melky or Gardner are not exactly “A” prospects.

          it’s not like they are asking for Jackson or Hughes.

          • Casper

            Totally, I hear you. I just meant that asking for moon may, in fact, not be an advisable tactic and may be “inept” in certain situations. I definitely overstated some things in my comment above, my bad.

            • steve (different one)

              you do make some good points, but i will try a better example:

              in 2006, when Matsui and Sheff went down, Cashman called the Royals and asked about Reggie Sanders.

              the Royals asked for Phil Hughes.

              that was end of that conversation.

          • Ed

            The original rumor I saw reported was the Mariners wanted Melky and Gardner. While probably not unreasonable during the offseason, it was a laughably stupid demand when both players were in the starting lineup every day. That’s an even stupider request than asking for Hughes. Melky + Gardner is a trade the Yankees can’t make, Hughes would just be one they shouldn’t make.

            • austinNYfan

              I wouldn’t trade Melky, he is not great, but a decent ML player. I don’t think Gardner will be the stellar player everyone thinks he will become. When Melky was struggling someone compared him to Ellsbury. Aside from last nights game Ellsbury has been awful.

          • ChrisS

            You know, I consider the writers of the USS Mariner some pretty smart baseball folks and when they’re considering doing backflips for a Washburn-Cabrera/Gardner trade, that tells me something.

            Washburn isn’t very good and makes a ton of money. And, frankly, the Yankees don’t need him that bad.

            But this is what Cashman does. Buy high, sell low, and out-bid himself. So, of course, Washburn will be in pinstripes come Friday. Or it’s an interesting way of starting the Mariner roster rearrangement for when he takes over this winter.

            • http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.

              Wait a sec. What are you talking about? Cashman buys high and sells low? He got two of the better pieces available on the market on Friday for next to nothing. It was a move reminiscent of the Abreu deal. When has he bought high and sold low? The whole point here is that he’s not willing to buy high on Washburn.

              • steve (different one)

                you see, ChrisS is assuming that Cashman has ALREADY traded Melky and Gardner to make his argument.

                did you see how that works?

                he’s completely ignoring the very basic premise that if Cashman WERE willing to deal Gardner/Melky for Washburn, it obviously would have happened before last night’s game.

                right?

                right?

              • ChrisS

                He didn’t trade next to nothing. He traded a bunch of guys that could have been traded to shore up the lack of any actual position prospects that can be used to reinforce the ML roster when all these mid-30s players surprisingly get injured? Oh wait, he’s got Brett Gardner. My bad.

                He got a league average OFer who is having a career year by trading a pre-season top five prospect who was having the worst year in his short career. That’s the very definition of buying high and selling low. Plus, as a throw-in, he got a reliever that they really didn’t need. Now they’re talking themselves into needing a $10 million dollar per year 4/5th pitcher “to eat innings.”

                Seriously, Ben, you would have traded Tabata/McCutchen/Ohlendorf for Nady/Marte before this season?

                The Abreu trade was strict salary dump, and now Cashman is paying $16 million a year for a mid-30s guy that provides horrid defense and a declining bat. It did nothing to strengthen the Yankees for more than a year or two, which necessitates trading for a guy like Nady. And a similar scenario is what will happen when Nady regresses to his mean and begins his post-28/9 decline, to go with his average defense.

                • http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.

                  Before this season? No. Of course not. But that’s beside the point.

                  The trade was made now in the middle of this season. Tabata’s stock is way down, and he hasn’t matured into the player people thought he would be by now. He’s bound to be off the top 100 prospect lists this winter. And the rest were replaceable pieces. The Yanks didn’t get back anything Earth-shattering. But you also can’t compare Nady to Abreu because Nady’s making far, far less money.

                  The Yanks came ahead in this trade. The Major League team is better, and I’d be surprised if any of the players they gave up turn out to be good Major Leaguers.

                • ChrisS

                  But that’s beside the point.

                  No, that is the point. Tabata’s stock is at a career low while Nady’s is at an all time high.

                  How much money these guys are making is kinda irrelevant, except after what they’re contributing to the team is quantified. If you give me the choice between two guys contributing 6 wins a year, I’ll take the younger less expensive guy every time. But I’ll take the guy contributing 8 wins over an inexpensive guy with 2-3 wins.

                  Since before Paul and Bernie started declining, the Yankees have known that they needed new OFers, and they have consistently relied on getting vets to the fill the holes for a couple of years. We know three things about vets: 1) they have a record of accomplishment; 2) they’re more apt to get injured and their skills typically decline post-28; 3) they’re usually more expensive than a younger counterpart.

                  The Abreu trade didn’t solve anything, it just kicked the can down the road a couple of seasons. And that’s how I feel about the Nady trade. The Yankees still have a dearth of positional prospects and replacement parts that can contribute at the ML level when all the high-priced veteran talent not surprisingly gets injured. Nady is a lot cheaper and a little younger than Abreu, but not as good and even more likely to be a league average or worse OFer in 2 seasons, at which point, the Yankees will have to replace him.

                • steve (different one)

                  The Abreu trade didn’t solve anything, it just kicked the can down the road a couple of seasons

                  so in other words, it SOLVED things for a “couple of seasons”.

                  basically your entire premise is that the Yankees should not have tried to improve the 2008 team and instead used the same collection of C prospects to get a future all-star OF prospect, is that about right?

                  Nady is a lot cheaper and a little younger than Abreu, but not as good and even more likely to be a league average or worse OFer in 2 seasons, at which point, the Yankees will have to replace him.

                  yeah, no shit. who said Nady is going to be the starting RFer for the next 10 years?

                  you seem to think that there is zero value in getting a stopgap solution.

                  that makes no sense.

                • ChrisS

                  you seem to think that there is zero value in getting a stopgap solution.

                  There’s nothing wrong with a stop-gap solution, but the Yankees approach to solving their OF problems for the last 6 years have been nothing stop-gap solutions. Which requires more stop-gap solutions and being forced to acquire them through trade or expensive FAs.

                  OFs (age) from the last 6 years:
                  2002: Rondell White (30) 76 OPS+, Bernie Williams (33) 141 OPS+, Raul Mondesi (31) 96 OPS+
                  2003: Hideki Matsui (29) 109 OPS+, Bernie Williams (34) 107 OPS+, Raul Mondesi (32) 110 OPS+
                  2004: Hideki Matsui (30) 137 OPS+, Bernie Williams (35) 108 OPS+, Gary Sheffield (35) 141 OPS+
                  2005: Hideki Matsui (31) 130 OPS+, Bernie Williams (36) 85 OPS+, Gary Sheffield (36) 137 OPS+
                  2006: Melky Cabrera (21) 95 OPS+, Johnny Damon (32) 115 OPS+, A total mishmash including Bernie (37) Aaron Guiel, Sheffield (37) and Abreu 32)
                  2007: Matsui (33) 127 OPS+, Melky (22) 89 OPS+, Abreu (33) 114 OPS + with special guest appearances by Johnny Damon.

                  And that rudimentary list doesn’t even include their respective defensive ability (or lack of as the case may be with most of them) or innings at the position, or estimated cost per WS. The one common denominator that I see is a whole bunch of expensive 30-somethings, picked up post-peak, that perform well for a season or two, then decline precipitously and/or spend big chunks of the season injured. Which results in needing another stop-gap solution.

                  Having to do that every season or every other season is something that I’d like the Yankees to get away from, but I guess I’m in the minority (especially since from an offensive stand-point the Yankees have had some very good hitting OFers – when they’re healthy). It speaks to a lack of depth in the minor league system and forces them to rely on guys from outside the team to fill holes. This method is typically more expensive than calling up a halfway decent 4th OFer type from the minors or actually having an OFer on the team for more than 2-3 seasons before dumping him to get the next flavor of the year.

                  And ultimately, this is what the Nady trade is: a stop-gap solution in a long line of stop-gap solutions. And this is, for those of us that can remember it, part of how the Yankees were the winningest team in the 80s, but never won anything. Kinda like the 00s Yankees.

                • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

                  Right again, ChrisS. “Stopgap” solutions are bad ideas, and they’re only the realm of the non-title winning teams of the 1980’s and the 2000’s. Real title-contending teams never have stopgap upgrades.

                  Sincerely,
                  David Justice, Darryl Strawberry, Tim Raines, Chili Davis, Chad Curtis, Gerald Williams, Cecil Fielder, Charlie Hayes, Mariano Duncan, Jim Leyritz, Jose Vizcaino, and Luis Sojo.

                • ChrisS

                  Beat on that strawman for a bit and have fun with it.

                • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

                  You keep settin’ em up, I’ll keep knockin’ em down…

        • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

          Casper – As a Knicks fan who suffered through the Layden and Thomas eras, I’ll agree that you have a point; if you’re totally unrealistic consistently, it can hamper your ability to swing a deal because teams will simply stop negotiating with you.

          However, I’m not sure what Seattle is doing is all that egregious. They could be asking for an A-level prospect in the hopes of reworking the deal as something more than a salary dump, i.e. “Give us something good like an Austin Jackson and we’ll pick up half of Washburn’s salary”, or something like that.

          Again, I’m not saying it will work, just saying they’re giving it a shot to see if they can get something of value for him, and I don’t think it speaks to any type of stupidity on their part. Trying to see if you can get the Yanks to bite on a Melky or a Gardner for Washburn isn’t insultingly, “Don’t ever fucking call me again” kinda bad. It’s not like they’re demanding Joba or something…

          • Casper

            I don’t disagree with you. My comment was really more theoretical in nature; this situation probably doesn’t rise to the level I was describing above. I really just meant that shooting for the moon may be inept, hypothetically. Really, considering the perception that the Yankees are desperate for pitching, Seattle’s just trying to use their leverage. I just hope Cash doesn’t give in, Washburn’s not that good.

            So, yeah, I probably should have kept quiet. I was bored on a long conference call, my mind tends to wander a bit.

            • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

              No, no, don’t keep quiet. Your point is valid.

      • Jake

        It’s not just this though. Signing Kenji Johjima to that contract extension when their top prospect Jeff Clement was/is major league ready was a stroke of ineptitude. Trading Horacio Ramirez for Rafael Soriano was a stroke of ineptitude.

        • Jake

          Soriano for Ramirez*

        • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

          Jake, I agree that Seattle has made plenty of asinine moves. But, until they actually fail to trade Washburn, I won’t label this inept just yet. This may all be posturing and exploring.

          • ChrisS

            Not trading him now won’t necessarily hurt them if Washburn continues to pitch like he has. They can flip him in the off-season, pick up some of contract and deal him as a one-year rental.

            They’ve got no pressing need to deal him. it’s not like if they get a half-way decent prospect this year will do anything to salvage their season.

            As a sidenote, I have a serious problem with trying to improve a baseball team by acquiring players from the worst team in baseball.

            • steve (different one)

              As a sidenote, I have a serious problem with trying to improve a baseball team by acquiring players from the worst team in baseball.

              i can’t think of how this comment makes sense on any level.

              • ChrisS

                I don’t know why you continue responding to my comments. I’m sorry.

                Cashman is the greatest evar!!11!

                • steve (different one)

                  hey, at least we finally agree on something, i don’t know why i continue to respond to your comments either.

            • pat

              hahahaa that was horrible just stop… u dont think adding ichiro or king felix would help… just because theyrew on a bad team u gotta be joking what with ur bold print and all

            • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

              I agree with you wholeheartedly, ChrisS. You should never trade with a team with a crappy record, because those teams are always full of crappy players that can never, ever, ever help your team win.

              Like, do you remember the time we traded 4 prospects to the Twins to get Chuck Knoblauch? The Twins were fresh off a 68-94 season – obviously, Knoblauch must have sucked big time. That was some dumb move on our part.

              Or when we traded three minor leaguers to the Blue Jays to get David Cone midseason… the Jays finished 56-88! Why would we want a starting pitcher from that group of losers! Man, that was a dumb trade; Cone never amounted to jack squat, if my memory serves.

              And don’t even get me started on trading for Alex Rodriguez… what a travesty! Who trades with the Rangers; they’re ALWAYS in last place. Why?!?

              What a bunch of stupid fucking dumbasses we are.

              • ChrisS

                Now, genius, compare those players with Richie Sexson, Jarrod Washburn, Jose Vidro, Ichiro, Johjima, or any other player the rumors have the Mariners pawning off on the Yankees.

                Wait, context means nothing, apparently.

                Did writing that post make you feel special?

                • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

                  Okay, I will explain. No, there is too much… I will sum up.

                  YOU: “You can’t improve a team by acquiring players from a bad team.”

                  ME: “Good players who can improve a good team are frequently on bad teams through luck and happenstance, and plenty of teams have acquired good players from bad teams and had amazingly good results for it. There’s nothing wrong with this strategy, and it’s pretty silly to rule out a player acquisition simply because he plays for a losing team. Thinking this would preclude you from many opportunities to improve your chances of winning.”

                  YOU: “Umm, you’re a big doo-doo head! Oh yeah, and Jose Vidro!”

                • ChrisS

                  Wow. That makes sense. I’m sorry. You’re the smartest feller on the boards.

                  Sorry, I should have written that the Yankees shouldn’t try to acquire more mediocre or worse players (basically all those not named Felix Hernandez and maybe Jeff Clement) from the worst team in baseball. I guess it helps to be very specific when dealing with people on the internets.

                • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

                  Yes, it does help to be very specific, because since it is the internets, we have no advance warning of who you are or what your intelligence level is, so if you make a statement that is, on its face, pretty stupid (like, for example, “I have a serious problem with trying to improve a baseball team by acquiring players from the worst team in baseball”) without leaving out essential qualifiers that would make it a non-stupid statement (like, for example, “I have a serious problem with trying to improve a baseball team by acquiring mediocre players from the worst team in baseball”), you leave us with little choice but to assume you truly are stupid.

                  Because there are plenty of stupid things said by stupid people all over the internets. So don’t think that any of us has much benefit from much doubt.

                  ———————–

                  And even with all that, your central premise (revised) is that the Yankees shouldn’t try to improve their team by acquiring any player on the Mariners other than Hernandez and Clement. Which is a slightly altered version of what you were saying before, but… it’s still stupid. Because you can clearly improve your team even by acquiring mediocre players on bad teams, like Jarrod Washburn, if you’re going to give those newly acquired mediocre players playing time at the expense of totally crappy players. Somebody who’s league average means that about half the league is better than him, and half the league is worse… stands to reason that if we’re relying on one of those guys worse than Washburn, replacing his starts with Washburn’s would make us better. And if you can acquire a league average starter (or even a below league-average one) to demote a butt-crappy starter and do it while not giving away anything of considerable value (like, say, a well-below-league average weak-hitting centerfielder), that’s a smart thing to do, no matter what the other team’s win-loss record is.

                  So again, Chris, I’m not calling you a dumbass, but based on your statements, the needle’s not exactly pointing in your direction.

              • Babe’s Ghost

                How about we all try and be a little more respectful of each other? If you want to have a flame war with personal insults try Pete Abe’s board or Boston.com or better yet call the FAN.

                Instead of “that’s the dumbest shit I’ve ever heard,” try, “I don’t agree with you because X, Y, Z”

                This is supposed to be a thinking fan’s board.

    • RustyJohn

      Lol…the first thing I was about to write after I read the story was, “The Seattle Mariners are the most inept franchise I have ever seen.”

      I still can’t believe they haven’t traded Ibanez yet, or Rhodes, or Washburn, or Betancourt. They keep saying they want to sell high on Ibanex because if he leaves as a free agent they’ll get draft picks- but, they will likely resign him next year and they haven’t done a whole hell of a lot with their draft picks since ARod.

      I’ll never forget the year when Eddie Guardado was lights out, and they were getting offers for him left and right. They didn’t want to trade him because they didn’t want to make it seem to the fans like they were giving up on the season (despite being 12 games out). So they held on to him and then a year later, he sucked ass and they just basically dumped him.

      Same with Moyer- trade a 3rd or 4th pitcher in the NL to a playoff contender for nothing. Why is it they gave the Phils Moyer for nothing but are now demanding a kings ransom for Washburn?

      Yankee fans, pray every day and thank the Lord that Brian Cashman is the GM.

      • dbroncos31

        Ibanez will likely decline arbitration, netting us a first round pick and a sandwich pick. Therefore we are not going to budge on him. We are not going to resign him; I don’t know where you got that from.

        Rhodes will be dealt, and Washburn we can hold out on because we can always put him on waivers on Aug. 1 and a team like the Yanks (or Cardinals) will take him and pay his salary. Then we would still be rid of his salary. So we can afford to play hardball with you guys in the hopes of actually getting something.

        Also, yeah our draft picks really suck. Jeff Clement, Adam Jones, Ryan Feierabend, Chris Tillman, Adam Moore, Phillipe Aumont, Brandon Morrow, Josh Fields. What a bunch of clowns. This doesn’t even include IFA signings, which is our strong suit.

  • zs190

    Riiiiight, Hank will suddenly decide that having a guy with 4.5 ERA and lousy overall peripheral numbers is somebody that the Yanks “must have”, seriously?

    I think there is a better chance that he will blast the Mariners for overplaying their hand and demand calling up IPK instead.

  • A.D.

    I mean if your the M’s you might as well hold out, your season is lost, and having whatever minor leaguer you get or Kei Igawa doesn’t really matter.

    M’s are going to want the money off the books more than anything else, especially with a new regime in, and some terrible contracts that aren’t expiring soon.

  • jonm

    Giving up Cabrera or Gardner for Washburn would be nuts. I’m surprised how often I’ve seen Melky’s name come up in trade talks. If the Yankees dealt Melky, who would play CF this year? Damon’s days in CF seem behind him and Gardner isn’t ready.

    • A.D.

      BG didn’t hit much in his initial call-up, but he can still play center in the bigs. Melky wasn’t at all ready when they called him up at 20, BG is 24 and can probably handle the pressure

      • TurnTwo

        and i would say along with this that he didnt look overmatched. he just had a prob hitting too many fly balls, and not taking advantage of his speed by getting the ball on the ground more often.

        Gardner would be a more than capable CF for the rest of the season if it came down to it. i doubt it will, though.

        correct me if I’m wrong, but hasnt Matt Carson also played some CF for Scranton the past couple weeks? would he be a viable option, maybe not now but down the road in a pinch? i’m not familiar enough with him and his talent/ability to know either way.

        • jonm

          I would just be very surprised if the Yankees wanted to take a risk on playing Gardner full-time this year during the pennant race. I like Gardner in the long-term, but it seems likely that Gardner would be worse than Melky for this season.

          • steve (different one)

            agreed.

            let’s be honest: Gardner was awful.

            i am NOT saying he won’t adjust or become a decent player, but RIGHT NOW, Gardner is a MUCH worse player than Melky.

            it’s not even close.

            Gardner needs to start making a lot more contact for his skillset to work.

        • Chris

          He really looked overmatched. He struck out 17 times in 68 PA. His problem wasn’t just hitting fly balls. His problem was that he wasn’t hitting the ball.

          • TurnTwo

            but thats not any different from what the Yankees saw from him in his development. he strikes out, but he also has a very good eye, and works the count well.

            now you can argue long term if he’s an everyday OF, and from what i saw, i wouldnt think so. he doesnt use his lower half when swinging to drive the baseball.

            but for the stretch run, and the short term future, i think he can handle CF just fine if it came down to it.

            • Chris

              The problem is that he doesn’t walk anymore than Melky. It’s great to work the count and see lots of pitches if you’re waiting for a pitch you can hit, but it seems like Gardner is trying to slap the ball to left field and can’t get the ball in play.

              • TurnTwo

                i dont disagree. but if you include Melky in a trade to get a pitcher, than Gardner is fine to patch up CF.

                i’m not arguing Melky or Gardner; i’m saying if either is dealt, the other can play CF in just fine and not kill the team.

            • ChrisS

              Gardner was horrible. Melky, I think, is going to be one of those guys that Yankees give up on, and when he’s 27-8 he’ll be a league average hitter having a fluke year for another team and Yankee fans will be kicking his name around in trade talks to replace whatever FA that the Yankees signed a a year or two earlier who is on the DL.

              Of course, some people see the world through rose-colored glasses and want Melky gone so badly that they refuse to acknowledge that Gardner will not be much more than a bad ML hitter. Unfortunately, Melky is a slightly better bad ML hitter.

              I’m waiting for the arguments in Gardner’s favor regarding his hustle, grittiness, and willingness to do the little things.

          • Thurman

            He did hit two absolute ropes in the Friday night game. One to left and one to center that were both right at outfielders. He has looked overmatched, but he has also showed flashes of the great pitch selection that helped him so much in the minors.
            I don’t think he is ready yet, but I don’t think he is as far away as the numbers suggest.

            • TurnTwo

              right.

            • Old Ranger

              Remember Melky, when he 1st came up…he was horrible. Sent him down, brought him back the next year, he did fine…for awhile.
              Brett is different; he has always started out slow (I’ve seen this guy a lot, last 2yrs.), then steps up. I say he will be different because; He has more tools to work with; Speed, good eye, correctable swing (batting), an avg.+ arm, and most important…baseball instincts, oh yes, he also has a history of hitting leftys (almost) as well as rightys. Actually, he could be a better answer to our CF job then Melky. He just needs time. 27/08?

  • A.D.

    Since May 21st Washburn has given up 4 runs or less in every start (11 total) with 8 quality starts, not bad if its for cash & a C level prospect

    • Geno

      But why not lean on the Mariners a little bit? They want his salary off the books. We should see how IPK has progressed first. If he still struggles at this level, we offer to take Vidro and Wash for their salaries alone. We then cut Vidro and eat the salary.

      Washburn and his bloated salary aren’t worth a cost-controlled, major-league ready, replacement-level outfielder with potential. No way.

      • A.D.

        Not at all, just pointing out the benefits to getting him, and that his 4.50 ERA isn’t as bad as it seems

  • John NY

    Come on. It’s obvious the Mariners interim GM is trying to impress his bosses. It’s really stupid for the Mariners not to make this deal. Even if they get Melky or Gardner, they are still going to be bad for a long time.

    I think the yanks should bring in IPK or Aceves. They can still get Washburn off waivers when the Mariners realize they’re fools.

    • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

      Washburn isn’t going to be waived. They’re interested in getting out from under his money… if they can’t do that, they’ll keep him because he’s still better than all their in-house alternatives.

      • Chris

        Putting him on waivers in August would get them out from his contract (as opposed to releasing him), if someone claims him. Perhaps they could even pick up a non-prospect type prospect for him…

  • TurnTwo

    i cant say i blame the M’s for trying, but i have no doubt that Washburn will make his next sched start on Friday for the pinstripes.

    now, as someone pointed out earlier, he has not fared well this season against his old mates in Anaheim, so lets hope he gets off on the right foot for NY.

  • JRVJ

    Buster Olney just did a very good analysis of why the M’s should trade Washburn. Basically, they’re been idiots for holding on to him any longer than they have to (Olney claims that the market for Washburn is just one – the Yanks).

  • jsbrendog

    i would love to see the mariners cave and say ok we’ll take a low level prospect and have cashman say at 11:58, nope, money and nothign else, take it or leave it, you have 2 minutes….

    then they’ll have to it and that’ll teach them

    • TurnTwo

      and you know they’ll cave, they have no leverage.

      but if they wait until Thurs afternoon, you wonder if Washburn then can make it to join the team in time to make the start on sched on Friday.

      if not, then the Yanks would be scrambling fo a starter.

    • dbroncos31

      Uhhh then we wouldn’t trade him. We would keep him and put him on waivers where any team could get him. Or we would hold onto him and trade him in the off-season.

  • Old Ranger

    I think it is all posturing, they know if they don’t get someone…the fans will be ugly. Conversely, they really don’t care what the fans think and never have. With money from the Japanese ownership, they should be up there with the Yanks as to their payroll.
    Washburn will come with his salary…no players from Yanks, maybe a C- player to make them look like they received something. 27/08?

  • bkight13@hotmail.com

    The Yanks definitely need some pitching help to stay in the race this year. Ponson and Rasner won’t do. Sending Melky would create a new problem, as Gardner isn’t ready yet to hit ML pitching(he needs to choke up).

    If Hughes, IPK, Pavano, Aceves?… can’t help soon, they need to get Washburn.

    • Jake

      Yea an innings-eater like Washburn is needed.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=594331910 Jamal G.

    Heh, wasn’t this Steve Phillips dumb ass strategy earlier in the year to get the Red to deal Jared Burton for Phil Hughes?

    You know how you know when your franchise is inept? When you use strategies that are endorsed by Steve “Mo Vaughn?! Gotta get me some of that shit!” Phillips.

    • jsbrendog

      listening to him and orel hershiser yesterday was so painful. it felt like every statement they made had to be said in a slowly rising crescendo that culminated in a dramatic end point trying to trick viewers into thinking they were saying somethign that had an iota of meaning and relevance….

      can’t fool me dumbasses…and that goes for yountoo seattle

      • TurnTwo

        i like Hershiser doing the ESPN games. im not sure who he sat in the booth with for the NCAA WS games, but i think he does a good job.

        Phillips, not so much.

        • Jake

          Agreed. But who’s worse? Morgan or Phillips?

          • TurnTwo

            hmm, Morgan.

          • John NY

            Jake,

            It’s Morgan all the way. He’s always been a yankee hater.

            • Jake

              Agreed, and as a diehard Yankee fan I have to agree. But what about if the Yankees aren’t playing. Like a Cubbies-Cards game? (Still Morgan in my book though)

          • AlexCT

            morgan. hands down

          • steve (different one)

            Phillips is much worse. Morgan is bad, but i can tolerate him if i think of him like a crazy old uncle or something. also, Morgan was one of the best players of all time, so in some cases, he MIGHT actually know a thing or 2 about baseball even if he completely struggles to express it properly.

            Phillips is just the worst kind of idiot: an idiot who doesn’t know he’s an idiot, so he’s arrogant to boot.

            • Jake

              You would think he knew a thing or two about baseball.

      • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

        Ugh, that game was painful to listen to. Phillips and Miller actually made Orel, who’s usually halfway decent, stupid. Their idiocy rubbed off onto him.

        DJ doesn’t turn a DP on a softly-hit grounder and gets only one out, and THAT’S the friggin’ defining play of the game and the reason we were trailing, let’s keep bringing that point up in every damn inning and ignore the fact that we’re running a pitcher up on the hill who puts on baserunners like it’s going out of style.

        Meanwhile, Alex Cora (whose numbers are downright varitekian) gets a grounder that’s just a little bit slower than the one Jeter got, and he barehands it and is unable to make ANY play on anybody, all runners are safe… but Alex Cora “is the kind of player who makes plays that help you win ballgames.”

        Where’s Patrick Bateman at to shoot these nuts in the head with a nailgun when you need him?

        • Jake

          American Psycho is one of my favorite movies of all time.

          • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

            That’s really super. How’d a nitwit like you get so tasteful?

            • Jake

              No need to be a jackass.

              • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

                Jake, it’s from the movie. (… the one you just said was one of your favorites…)

                ———————–

                BATEMAN – New card. What do you think?
                [McDermott lifts it up and examines the lettering carefully.]
                McDERMOTT – Whoa. Very nice. Take a look.
                [He hands it to Van Patten.]
                BATEMAN – Picked them up from the printers yesterday
                VAN PATTEN – Good coloring.
                BATEMAN – That’s bone. And the lettering is something called
                Silian Rail.
                McDERMOTT [Envious] – Silian Rail?
                VAN PATTEN – It is very cool, Bateman. But that’s nothing.
                [He pulls a card out of his wallet and slaps it on the
                table.
                ]
                VAN PATTEN – Look at this.
                [They all lean forward to inspect it.]
                PRICE – That’s really nice.
                [Bateman clenches his fists beneath the table, trying to
                control his anxiety.
                ]
                VAN PATTEN – Eggshell with Romalian type. [Turning to Bateman] What do you think?
                BATEMAN [Barely able to breathe, his voice a croak] – Nice.
                PRICE [Holding the card up to the light] – Jesus. This is really super. How’d a nitwit like you get so tasteful?
                [Bateman stares at his own card and then enviously at
                McDermott’s.
                ]
                BATEMAN [V.O.]- I can’t believe that Price prefers McDermott’s card to mine.

                • Jake

                  Ha, you’re right. Touche (sp?)

  • http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.

    Before you all get too misty-eyed over Melky, keep in mind that he’s hitting .233/.283/.289 over his last 275 plate appearances. That’s awful. He’s probably a bit better than that but not by much, and if the Yanks had any other viable CF options, Melky would not be starting on this team.

    • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

      Ben, in your opinion, if they asked for Melky for Washburn, straight up, would you do that?

      • http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.

        Who’s paying Washburn’s contract?

        • http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.

          Actually, it doesn’t matter. I’d be inclined to entertain the idea of a Washburn-for-Melky swap if the M’s pick up some of Washburn’s money and if the Yanks have a viable CF option. I’m not sure that Melky will ever deliver much value through trade, and the Yanks are missing another starter right now more than they’ll miss Melky’s sub-.600 OPS out of the CF slot.

          • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

            If we pay ALL of Washburn’s money, you’d give up Melky for him?

            I’m thinking we should hold the line there. If they want Melky or Gardner, they have to pay some of Washburn’s contract. If they want to dump all of it, they pick a lesser talent in the minors.

            And yes, I agree with you that calling Melky or Gardner a “greater talent” than ANYONE is a bit of a stretch, but there are some players with even less trade value than those two.

            • http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.

              No no. I’m saying that if the Mariners pay some of Washburn’s contract, I’d be willing to throw them either Melky or Gardner.

              • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

                Okay. I can live with that.

              • cult of basebaal

                i think i’d rather throw them george kontos.

    • Old Ranger

      As I so stated above; Brett can/will handle CF, if given a chance. If he is given 275 AB, with the help of Long (has been helping) he will turn things around and finish at; .250/.260, .350/.360, he is already in the hole at .160 (I think). Which is better then Melky. I have watched this guy (Brett), toss out the numbers and look at the package.
      When Jason/Bobby striks out, people say; “he has a good eye, sometimes that will cost you.” but in Bretts case, “he’s a bumm, send him back.” 27/08?

  • Curramba

    I think some of these teams still think they are dealing with King George and not Brian Cashman. You ain’t getting an A list prospect for a pitcher who at best is a 4 and at worst doesn’t belong in the bigs. Oh, who is owed a ton money.

    • Jake

      I really doubt that people are dealing with George. His dementia is way too advanced for any baseball stuff. I could see people dealing with Hank though.

      • Curramba

        King George pre-health problems.

  • Frank

    I think a trade with the M’s will go down. but I think it will be an expanded one, with Melky or Gardner being included. IMO it will similar to the Abreu deal where Lidle was included also. We’ll see, its just a feeling…

    • Jake

      Maybe another team will get involved. Just my own pure speculation.

    • jsbrendog

      who eklse on the ms is going to be involved, ichiro? short of him there is not one other eprson id be willing totake

      scratch that…..maybe clement but i dont know enough about him

      • A.D.

        they’re not trading Clement

      • Frank

        Maybe Bloomquist… among others.

        • cult of basebaal

          why would anyone want willie bloomquist?

      • Jake

        Clement is suppose to be their C of the future; though you wouldn’t know that judging by their recent moves (see Johjima extension)

    • TurnTwo

      yeah, i argued this the other day, where if the Mariners really decide they want to dump salary, they’d make the Yankees not only take Washburn, but Ichiro, too.

      so would you trade IPK, Melky, and some other moving parts for Washburn and Ichiro, with their contracts and salary?

      not that i think the Mariners will move Ichiro… just saying if they tried to pull this sort of thing, it wouldnt surprise me.

      • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

        It would surprise me.

        Ichiro isn’t going anywhere, unless it’s for established, young ML stars. Not an IPK-Melky collection of maybes, possiblies, and never-wills.

        • Jake

          Yea, the Japanese contingency they have there wouldn’t let Ichiro walk. They make too much money off of him and is too important to that franchise as a whole (not even talking baseball wise).

  • Realist

    Well the point that many of us are missing is that Seattle has the upper hand right now. They don’t have to trade Washburn, he’s pitched very well his last 10 games or so, he pitched very well Sunday whil Ponson’s luck ran out. If Ras falters their bargaining position is even stronger. So ofcourse they are going to ask for more than they believe they can get because sometimes you do get it, circumstances playing the key here. Those aforementioned circumstances are why this deal isn’t done and why they want more. It is really quite simple ;-)

    • Jake

      That is definitely true, but it is also in their best interest to deal him now. They are going nowhere fast and his value is as high as it will ever be.

    • jsbrendog

      probably why moose is pitching tonight and not rasner

      • Bo

        If they want to save 10+ mill they have to deal him now. What leverage do they have? No other team is in on him.

        • Realist

          They have the aforementioned leverage plus if he finishes out the season pitching like he is this offseason they could possibly recoup more?

          Thanks for letting me know Moose was going jsbrendog, I was unaware of that and it makes sense!

  • Bo

    MLB Trade Rumors hasn’t been as good this year as in past years. A lack of updates is probably the main thing.

  • younguns

    For those new to the Yankees & their Minor Leaguers & as a point of history, Melky Cabrera was beyond awful when he was brought up as a 20-year old outfielder in 2005. He lasted 6 games in the Bronx and looked totally overmatched & lost. Fast forward 1 year to 2006 & Melky finishes the season with a .280 average with 460 ABs as the Yankee Center Fielder.

    Where am I going with this, you say?

    I’m saying give Brett Gardner time & a real chance to show what he’s capable of before shipping him off. I remember the Yankees of the 1980s, where promising guys were shipped off before they were given a chance, like some of the people here are advocating with players like Gardner.

    Just remember, Robinson Cano went something like 0-18 when he was first called up back in May of 2005. If the voices for impatience & instant gratification had prevail back then in 2005 like they are trying to with a Washburn trade right now, Miguel Cairo would be the starting 2nd baseman for the Yankees while Cano would be prospering for some other club.

    • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

      I agree with your calls for patience, been saying that for a while on Gardner. However, comparing them to Cano is a bit of a stretch… neither Melky nor Gardner have ever been prospects on Cano’s level. Cano is/was a stud and was the crown jewel of the organization when he came up; Melky and Gardner are good kids who can fill some needs but have well-documented holes in their games and project as fringe major leaguers, not studs. There’s a real concern that neither of them will ever be as good a player as Washburn is, which is why IMO the trade wouldn’t be horrible.

  • LiveFromNewYork

    Mariners on line 2 for Mr. Steinbrenner.
    Mr. Steinbrenner’s secretary: tell them to talk to mr. cashman
    Mariners insist on speaking with Mr. Steinbrenner
    Mr.Steinbrenner’s secretary: Mr. Steinbrenner said talk to Mr. Cashman or no one…now leave him alone…he has blustery quotes to ponder.