Yanks beat another playoff team, but Joba the main story

Game 150: Immortality awaits
Hideki heading for surgery

So the Yankees have now played four games in a row against playoff-bound teams, and they’ve won three of them. Sadly, that seems to fall into the “too little-too late” category as the team is still nine games out of a playoff spot with just 12 games left to play.

Tonight, the Yanks played a crisp, quick game against the AL Central-leading White Sox. They scored two runs early on a Xavier Nady home run and two runs late on a Wilson Betemit double and a Johnny Damon single, and the White Sox never really had anything going offensively. Al Aceves continued to limit the number of opposing base runners. He allowed just one base runner an inning and struck out three. As a back-end starter, he’s certainly more than serviceable.

On the milestone front, Mariano Rivera recorded the 479th save of his career, and he is now second all-time on the saves list. Trevor Hoffman sits 73 saves ahead of Rivera, and Rivera’s attempts at catching Hoffman will depend upon the future of Trevor. Hoffman, soon to be 41, wants to return to the Padres next year, and as long as he keeps pitching, Rivera won’t catch him. Derek Jeter took an 0-fer and remains tied with Lou Gehrig on the all-time Yankee Stadium hit list.

While the Yanks won, that fact has taken second-stage to Dr. Jorge Posada. All the Yankee bloggers are writing about Posada, and when Joba came into pitch in the eighth tonight, the YES Network analysts went on and on about it for the entire inning.

To recap: Jorge Posada said on CenterStage that Joba should stay in the bullpen. “Leave him in the bullpen,” Posada said. “If you start him and he pitches 200 innings, he won’t be able to. You’re going to lose him. He’s going to get hurt.”

Now, this isn’t a new argument. We’ve been discussing this for the better part of fourteen months when the Yankees first decided that, for the first time ever in his career, Joba Chamberlain, a prospect with potential number-one starter stuff, should pitch out of the pen due to an innings limit. Unfortunately for everyone, Joba β€” a very, very good pitcher β€” thrived, and a lot of Yankee watchers can’t get over the fact that Joba as a starter is more valuable than what they’ve seen Joba do as a reliever.

But let me post two situations. The first is this: If I said to you that A-Rod should only pinch hit because he could get injured playing every inning of every game, you would think I was certifiably insane. If I said to you that CC Sabathia should only pitch the eighth inning every two or three days because he could get injured throwing complete game shut-outs every five days, you’d lock me up and throw away the key. This is no different. Until Joba shows that he absolutely cannot handle the demands of starting, he should start. That’s the bottom line.

Interestingly, someone bothered to ask Joba what he felt about all this, and as PeteAbe relates, Joba has always been and will always be a starter. He hasn’t minded coming out of the bullpen this year, but it doesn’t sound like he’ll be as keen about it in the future. Joba is a potential ace, and to waste him in the bullpen would be further proof that the Yankees don’t know how to develop pitchers. Luckily, I have more faith in the people running the Yankees than I do in Jorge Posada, John Flaherty and any other former baseball player opining about Joba’s role with the team.

Game 150: Immortality awaits
Hideki heading for surgery
  • Accent Shallow

    Clearly he’s a much better option right now, but is Aceves’ true talent level that much different from Rasner’s?

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.

      A little but not enough to make him anything more than a 6th or 7th starter next year.

      • Steve

        Wait till you see him put the Guacamole sauce on his pitches. Makes one hell of a spitball.

        • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

          Steve, you evil, racist bastard, you…

          • Steve

            Oh come on. Food=funny.

            • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

              Personally, I want some grape drink right now…

  • Barry

    Joba being an ace is worth the risk.

  • dan

    Just so everybody knows…. Joba’s ERA as a starter this year (in 12 starts) is lower than CC Sabathia’s. If he qualified (which he’s not even close to doing), he’d have the 4th lowest mark in the bigs, behind only Cliff Lee, The Holy One Tim Lincecum (in that big park), and Johan Santana.

  • Harry G

    Right on Ben. What pisses me off the most about this whole “debate” is that had the bullpen not sucked last season, we wouldn’t even have this discussion!!! The reason he was put in there wasn’t because the Yanks thought he’s better there or because they wanted him there!
    He has always been a starter. That’s what he is. It’s in the guys blood. A dominant young pitcher with a plus-pitces = ACE. Let’s say he does get injured once a year, and he puts up identical stats as both a starter and reliever. Would you rather get 70-80 innings out of him a year, or 150-170???
    And I love how the media keeps writing “the Yanks want to ‘convert’ him into a starter.” WHAT? Convert him? He was a starter before all the idiot writers/player-doctors heard of him!!! That’s “putting him back in his original role” which is starter! Not “converting” him! These people never heard of him before he came up last season and never followed him in the minors and after seeing him pitch 20+ innings last year they already know which way to use him???
    The Yanks drafted him, paid him a signing bonus, and developed him as a starter. When they drafted him, they weren’t unsure of his role. They didn’t have any discussion as to whether he should be a reliever or a starter. He IS a starter. Because they needed some bullpen help last season doesn’t mean he should stay there.
    The reason he got injured isn’t because his arm can’t take the load of a starter. He wasn’t injured all of last season. It’s not like every time he’s started a few games in a row he’s gotten injured. We don’t and can’t know the exact reason. Pitchers get injured all the time. (Yeah, I guess Carlos Zambrano should go to the pen for the rest of his career because he got shoulder tendinitis last week, the same injury Joba had. Oh, I forgot. He pitched a no-hitter last night…. But god forbid Joba gets injured and all the “wri-tards” and team doctors – i’m lookin at you Jorge – are goin all gaga, “JOBA NEEDS TO STAY IN THE PEN!”) Maybe the reason he got injured was because of the constant back n’ forth this season. His arm was used to throwing much less pitches at a time and then he was throwing 100 at a time. We don’t know. As Tom Verduci wrote last week: “He was trained as a starting pitcher and was being returned to starting pitching, but in between he was a reliever whom they treated like a closer, mostly limiting him to short appearances. The abrupt change made no sense. Chamberlain hurt his shoulder.” Although I don’t agree with Verducci’s assertion that Joba should be a multiple-inning bullpen guy ala Dennis Eckersley.

  • Harry G

    After hearing Cashman say a couple of weeks ago “We still envision him as a starter but we still need to discuss it over the winter,” I get the feeling the Yanks are actually contemplating the idea of leaving him in the pen.
    What is there to “discuss?” You dafted him as a starter and rightfully put him back in his original role even in the face of pressure from the media and some of your own players. You have the best young arm in the major leagues behind Tim Lincecum. Why not get the most out of him?
    If it’s about how to handle his innings limits- and the obvious injury concerns that come with it as mentioned above- that your worried about, then either have him start the season late, in May or June and let him pitch once every five days till the end of the season, or have him pitch every five days since spring training and shut him down when he reaches his innigs limits, even if some idiots in the media will go “Will you just let the kid pitch?!”
    Don’t mess with this kid’s arm. He’s too valuable a commodity to fool around with.
    Not that they owe me – a Yankee fan since birth – anything, and not to sound too dramatic, because i’m just one lonely fan, but if the Yanks leave Joba in the pen, I will never, ever forgive them. That has got to be the single most assinine [if i’m spelling that word correctly] decision in the history of professional sports. Hands down. Right up there with Grady Little leaving Pedro in to pitch in Game 7 of the ’03 ALCS, and Mangini runnin it up the gut three staight times on 1st-&-goal against the Spygaters front seven on Sunday.
    I’m out.

    • Steve

      Harry, start a blog.


    • Todd

      Don’t forget the fact that the guy still hits 95-96 mph in the seventh inning…

  • Harry G

    Correction: “four” plus pitches = ACE. Not that any of y’all didn’t know that already.

    • TurnTwo

      and when he’s on the shelf for two months with some sort of biceps strain or rotator cuff injury, he can use all those 4 plus pitches to dominate MLB ’08 for PS3.

      i like Joba as a starter as much as everyone else, but we’ve yet to see how well Joba’s shoulder holds up under the rigor and stress of 150 innings in a season, let alone 200 or 200+ innings.

      i can see both sides of the debate, and one DL stint does not an injury-riddled career make. but only time will tell for sure.

      but this start in the bullpen and transition to the rotation nonsense has to stop. the yankees are trying to have their cake and eat it too. stop screwing around with his development, just let him start in the rotation and throw him down in Scranton for a month or two if you have to limit his innings.

      • BklynJt

        They need to stop jerking him around between the bullpen and rotation. This is terrible management by the Yankees and I am definitely starting to lose faith in the organization.

        • steve (different one)

          right, except you don’t really have any evidence either way that is helping or hurting him.

          all you have is your opinion.

          • BklynJt

            I personally am losing faith in the organization if the rumors about wanting to start Joba in the pen at the start of the year again are true. So what the hell is your point??? Blogs are all about voicing opinions. And I just voiced mine. Now shut it.

  • BigBlueAL

    I thought the most impressive thing about the game lwas that Brett Gardner actually hit a flyball that drove Griffey within 20 feet of the warning track.

    • Manimal

      hes really got to learn to slap the ball and go for line drives.

    • Steve

      Are you accusing him of taking steroids?

      • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

        I’m accusing him of not taking enough steroids. He’s doing himself and this team a tremendous disservice.

        Get on the juice immediately, BG.

  • The Scout

    When Chamberlain hurt his shoulder in Texas, David Cone offered the interesting observation that it the extreme heat contributed to the injury. Cone said that in that weather, a pitcher stretches out more easily and can over-extend a joint without realizing it. Certainly tha tis plausible. If it is true, it points to the odd, unpredictable nature of an injury. Of course, it has nothing to do with whether the pitcher starts or comes out of the bullpen.

    Most of the unknowns here are organizational. Will Cashman be back? If he goes, is he replaced by leadership via advisory committee, and does that committee favor Chamberlain as a starter? If he stays, do the Yankees bring in two top starters and retain Pettite and Mussina? Is Cashman determined to prove that his faith in Hughes and Kennedy are justified by handing them back-end of the rotation roles as he did this year?

    • Steve

      Its amazing. I don’t think there’s a pitcher alive who hasn’t had a sore shoulder at one time or another, and yet this is being treated like its a sign that he can’t possibly hold up as a starter.

      • TurnTwo

        but we dont know if it was really just a sore shoulder which, yes, every pitcher has at some point in a season, or if there are structural problems.

        again, time will tell.

        • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

          But, if there’s “structural” problems, wouldn’t they occur for Joba the Bullpen Stud just like they would for Joba the Starting Ace? What people seem to miss in this whole flap is the misguided theory that Joba would somehow be less susceptible to injury in the bullpen than he would in the rotation… If you look just at our team, we’ve lost relievers to injury at about the same rate as we’ve lost starters (Bruney, Albaladejo, Britton, Henn, and Giese, all this year, vs. Joba, Pettitte, Kennedy, Hughes, and Karstens). I’m sure it’s largely true for other teams.

          In fact, let me just list the three central arguments that the “Joba in the Pen” crew use, side by side, so you can see how contradictory they are:

          A) In the bullpen, Joba can be more dominant by not conserving and pacing himself but instead, going full tilt and throwing gas at 97-99 mph.
          B) In the bullpen, Joba can impact more games by making 70-80 appearances instead of just 33 as a starter.
          C) In the bullpen, Joba will be less of an injury risk since he’s not going 6 innings at a time.

          So… they want Joba to be used with the frequency of Tanyon Sturtze or Paul Quantrill and throw with the effort of Joel Zumaya or Troy Percival and somehow think that he’ll magically not get hurt this way?

          • http://www.barackobama.com/index.php TurnTwo

            not necessarily. while the frequency at which he throws would increase, the stress on the shoulder or arm may not.

            there is a difference, i would hypothesize w/o having the specific medical knowledge of James Andrews, in throwing 20 pitches 3 times a week or so than throwing 90-110 pitches once or twice a week in a rotation.

            • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

              But again, they also want Joba to throw HARDER in the pen when he throws fewer pitches more frequently. You can’t leave that part out. Part of Joba’s supposed increased “dominance” as a reliever comes from the fact that in the pen, he’d be throwing harder.

              • TurnTwo

                again, neither one of us have the physics and medical background to start having a discussion on the impact of the shoulder, taking into consideration bullpen vs rotation.

                but when you look at the most recent example, Papelbon, he’s seemed to stand up to the workload in the bullpen just fine.

                personally, i just think it would seem easier on a shoulder to throw 20-25 pitches a couple times a week vs a large number of pitches, 90-110, every 5 days… more of the constant repetition of an unnatural motion of the arm and shoulder than of the power it takes to do it with force for a shorter period of time.

                if that makes sense.

                • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

                  “but when you look at the most recent example, Papelbon, he’s seemed to stand up to the workload in the bullpen just fine.”

                  Ugh… again, Papelbon is SO not a good comp for Joba. Paps has never shown great success as a STARTER, nor does he have the arsenal for it. If he did, the Sox would have moved him into the rotation instead of using scrubs like Bartolo Colon, Kyle Snyder, and Matt Clement ages ago.

                  Furthermore, the fact that Paps hasn’t been injured in the pen does not reinforce your allegation that moving to the pen reduces injury, because we have no way of knowing that he wouldn’t have similarly remained injury free if he was in the rotation, unless you have a time machine and an alternate universe handy for an experiment.

                  All of this is specious reasoning that relies on the fallacy of the predetermined outcome. People are using the facts from Scenario A to attempt to justify outcomes that would have theoretically happened in the imagined Scenario B. And, even if we lower the standard of prediction to what is “plausible” rather than what is “fated”, you can easily find an equally plausible Scenario C where Joba remains healthy AND remains in the rotation – there are literally dozens and dozens of young arms who are in starting rotations all throughout baseball who are injury free and pitching 200 innings.

                  Rather than Papelbon, here’s three other comps for Joba – Chad Billingsley, Mike Pelfrey, and Adam Wainright, guys who moved into the pen at the ML level because either their team had a short-term need or the team wanted to give them a taste of the bigs, but eventually, they were rightly transitioned back into starting where their value and benefit to the team is maximized.

                • http://www.barackobama.com/index.php TurnTwo

                  i used Paps as a comparison for a shoulder issue, thats it. never compared talent, nor ceiling.

                  Papelbon had a should issue (i believe it was a shoulder impingement, and its propensity to pop out of his socket) and was shifted to the pen, for whatever reason you want to give, and hasnt had a problem since.

                  so at minimum, it certainly didnt hurt his physical condition or make it any worse, and he’s thrived.

                  i have no issue with doing everything possible to give Joba the chance to succeed in the rotation.

                  just saying that it might be necessary for health reasons. MIGHT be necessary.

  • mascot

    Dumbest debate ever, and it will never end.

  • Manimal

    injuries are bound to happen, we can’t baby him forever. Why in the world would Hughes use the glasses again, it didn’t work out so well last time.

    • Chris

      He’s never used glasses before….

      • Geno

        Sure he did. There’s a pic of him on the mound in glasses floating around this site somewhere.

        • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike A.

          Yeh, but he started wearing them after coming back from the cracked rib. He’s never worn them in the bigs before.

  • Tripp

    How come we aren’t having this conversation about Phil Coke? He’s been lights out since coming up to the bigs to pitch out of the bullpen. He throws hard and has a good slider. Yet, Girardi said just the other day that he wants him to throw more change ups so he can evaluate whether Coke should be a starter or a reliever.

    • http://www.barackobama.com/index.php TurnTwo

      bc Phil Coke isnt nearly the rock star that Joba has come to be.

    • yankeemonkey

      Because Coke is at least 3 years older than Joba and hasn’t been considered any sort of serious prospect until this year.

    • steve (different one)

      because Phil Coke doesn’t have #1 starter potential.

  • josh

    Ideas foe next year — I think sabathia is a must, texiera is pretty much a must, and i would even give manny a thought as well. trade matsui and cano, get orlando hudson and resign pettite. what do you guys think?


    sp-wang,sabathia, joba, pettite, hughes
    plus whatever you get for cano and matsui (you gotta believe it would be valueable whether its minor leaguers, major leaguers, pitchers , hitters, or any combination of.

    • Chris

      Cano is better than Hudson

      • http://www.barackobama.com/index.php TurnTwo

        does this factor in what kind of trade value Cano has in the market? no.

        so would you rather have Cano, or say, Matt Cain and Orlando Hudson? or Matt Kemp and Orlando Hudson? or Prince Fielder and Orlando Hudson? or Jake Peavy and Orlando Hudson? or Zach Geinke and Orlando Hudson?

        not saying any of these deals would happen, and any potential deal would need to be exapnded upon… but open your mind a little here; it wouldnt just be an even ‘this 2B for this 2B’ swap.

        • Chris

          The problem is that I’m not sure how much trade value Cano (or Matsui) have. Obviously he’s talented, but coming off such a bad year, I’m not sure that you could get someone of that caliber in return.

        • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

          While I agree with you, TurnTwo, that you can’t reflexively say that “No, you can’t possibly trade Cano”, the thing that burns me about Josh’s post is that he’s not really advocating using Cano specifically as a trading chip to get a particular player of need, like a Scott Kazmir or a Curtis Granderson or any of your suggested names or something…

          …no, he just wants to dump Cano. For something, for anything, for “whatever we can get for him.” Cano isn’t replaced in his “plan” with any noteworthy talented ML player, as all of the acquisitions in his plan are acquired independently of any Cano deal.

          It’s clear if you read the post that Josh’s master plan was predicated more on the “let’s get rid of Cano while he has some value left” line of thought rather than the recognition that Cano is a very good, emerging young talent who should only be traded for someone who is equally young and talented, like the players you named.

        • Ed

          If, say, we’d rather have Matt Cain and Orlando Hudson than Cano, don’t you think San Fransisco would have the same preference?

          The only one of those possibilities that makes any sense is the Prince Fielder one, as he’s due for a huge arbitration increase and is looking for a giant payday. The other guys are all bargain priced, hence not going anywhere.

          • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

            Exactly. Which is why i’ve been saying ad nauseam that Cano is untouchable – not because he’s actually untouchable, but because the only players you’d actually move him for are players that would never get moved.

            You’re not going to get good value for Cano because the only deals that aren’t a step down in talent are for guys who are equally untouchable (like Kazmir, Cain, Lincecum, Grienke, etc.)

            • TurnTwo

              disagree. again, its not just a one player for one player swap. its fundamental pieces to a larger deal.

              its also trading a perceived team strength for a perceived team weakness.

              im not saying a deal will get done, but if you trade Cano, you arent really losing too much value on him. he had a bad year, but as a young player, he still has the same long term potential value.

              • josh

                not saying we should just trade away cano for anything- but at the same time it is a bit silly for me to propose what we would get. sure cano for kazmir would be amazing but is it realistically going to happen? no. the yankeee brass is far more aware what they could get for cano and matsui and perhaps some minor leaguers. as far as what the team would need – that depends largely on what they can sign – i have heard sabathia loves the NL and the dodgers are interested in giving him alot of $$$. i have also heard that the angels will want to give texiera a fair sum. the manny idea may be a bit frivolous and ill advised considering his age and media woes in boston, but there is no doubt he will help a team with a win now attitude (which, with an aging jeter and rivera the yankees should, IMO, have) that doesnt mean they should be willing to get burned with a bad contract. clearly this team has alot to do and if texiera and sabathia dont happen we might be in some trouble.

  • RobC

    This could depend on what the Yanks do in the off season with free agents. Adding CC and Burnett could make it easier to keep Joba in the pen.
    There is the question of which pyschological weapon you want.
    Do you want teams to look at an upcoming 3 game series with the Yankees and ask “is Joba starting a game?” or would you rather every game the other team thinks they need a lead after 6 innings b/c Joba & Mo shut down innings 7,8,9

    • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

      Your “psychological weapon” argument is also wrong.

      Look at the Blue Jays. They have one of the best bullpens in baseball, with Scott Downs and Jesse Carlson as two amazingly good setup men in front of B.J. Ryan as a great closer (ERA+ of 240, 235, and 138 respectively).

      And no opposing team ever fears Scott Downs, Jesse Carlson, or B.J. Ryan. What they do fear is Roy Halladay and A.J. Burnett. They look at the rotations and breath a sigh of relief if the miss Halladay or Burnett in a series. Even though they’ll have to face the “psychological weapons” of Scott Downs and Jesse Carlson.

      • Steve


        Thats the kind of “sports narrative” stuff you see constantly that really doesn’t mean much. You make good pitches, you get outs. All the other stuff is just window dressing.

  • Chris

    I know everyone thinks this is a stupid discussion, but Joba has never thrown more than 120 innings in a season. He’s suffered two arm injuries that have limited the number of innings he’s thrown.

    • http://www.barackobama.com/index.php TurnTwo

      said the same thing above… but i have a feeling that people have made up their minds, all or nothing, shut the door on even the remote possibility his arm cant hold up. he is an ACE!*(@#$%*(+#$

      • rbizzler

        It is not that people have made up their minds about him being a starter, it is that, considering the difference in value, most people would like to see him given every chance to impact 200 innings a year rather than 60-70.

        If he can’t hack the wear and tear, he goes back to the ‘pen. Pretty simple.

        • http://www.barackobama.com/index.php TurnTwo

          yeah, i dont disagree with the conclusion about Joba, but i would disagree with people’s opinions of him as a starter. a majority of the people who want him to only be a starter i think would argue there is no way he should ever be in the bullpen.

          i could be wrong in their perception, tho.

          • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

            I don’t think there’s “no way” he should be in the bullpen, I think we should exhaust the possibility that he can’t be a starter first, though.

            As in, I’d need to see him unable to make it through 33 starts for, like 3 or 4 consecutive years before I give up on his ability to start.

            It took Curt Shilling until he was damn near 30 before he could remain a healthy and effective starter for the duration of a season…

            • TurnTwo

              i agree.

              but do you think the yankees are really going to sit around and let him not pitch like that for the next 5 years? i certanly dont.

    • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

      Before making it to the big leagues, major league pitchers generally pitch in the following:

      High school: not enough games started to possibly throw more than 120 innings
      College: not enough games started to possibly throw more than 120 innings
      Rookie ball: not enough games started to possibly throw more than 120 innings
      Short season: not enough games started to possibly throw more than 120 innings

      It’s not until you get to the advanced levels of the minor leagues where you could possibly throw that much, and Joba didn’t stay in the minors that long because it was pretty pointless to leave him down there when he’s so much better than the competition. He’s not going to improve as a pitcher by staying in Trenton or Scranton until he’s “thrown 120 innings”.

  • Steve S

    Is there any reason why they wouldn’t send both Joba and Hughes to Winter League to build up innings for next year? And I am sincerly asking. I know the obvious risk of injury but as Ben said, there is always a risk of injury when they pick up the baseball. The only thing I have seen that can be substantiated by facts is the large innings jump for young pitchers. That makes sense and they should stick to it.

    Its annoying because I was willing to deal with the growing pains this year but its as if there will be no progress if those two haven’t built up enough innings to be relied on next year. Has anyone asked Cashman that question. This whole thing with protecting you arms doesn’t seem to be an exact science but shutting them down at their low innings counts seems to be recipe for disaster next year (see what the Mets are going to do to Mike Pelfrey if they make the playoffs). Aside from staying healthy they both need to develop more and the only way to do that is to be pitching and since we cant get that at the major league level, they might as well get some innings when they have fallen so short of the goals set at the beginning of the year.

    • rbizzler

      It would be great for them to get Joba’s innings up before the start of next year. Does anyone know if they will/can send him to instructionals after the season ends? Would extended work down in Tampa actually count towards Verducci’s innings cap theory? Questions abound.

      Also, I agree that Joba is a starter until he proves otherwise.

  • mustang

    “We’ll discuss whether Chamberlain will be a starter or a reliever, along with everything else, during the winter,” co-chairman Hank Steinbrenner said.

    I didn’t think that this was in discussion anymore, but this quote makes you think especially coming from a guy who wants Joba to be a starter.

    • mustang

      Maybe there is more going on with Joba’s health. It’s a strange comment coming form Hank.

      • http://www.barackobama.com/index.php TurnTwo

        agreed. i still think there is much more going on behind the scenes here than any of us really know.

      • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

        I get the sense it’s more of a non-statement than a statement.

        Misc. Reporter: “Will you make Joba back into a reliever?”
        BigBank: “We’ll discuss all that crap later. Now get out of my way, I’ve got an 8:30 res at Dorsia.”

        • mustang

          I love it you always read between the lines and bring us the heart and soul of all of Hank’s comments.

          • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

            I’m here, I’m there, I’m Big Bank Hank, I’m everywhere
            So just throw your hands up in the air
            And party hearty like you just don’t care

            • Steve

              When will people ever learn to just stop listening to Hank. He’s been to 3 games all year, and not a single thing he’s wanted has happened. Hal and Cashman are running the team by all accounts,

              Hank likes to talk to Kat O’Brien from Newsday. Maybe he has the hots for her, I don’t know. But it never seems to add up to anything.

              • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

                Kat O’Brien = Jennifer Love Hewitt.

    • http://www.barackobama.com/index.php TurnTwo

      i think it’s all going to come down to the long term plan of the organization, and how this year has scarred the eyes of the people in charge.

      if they are a little gunshy about leaning on too much young pitching to start the season after what happened this year, you may see them go in on 2 or 3 veteran arms this offseason with 3 or 4 year contracts, whoever that might be, and prefer to let Hughes continue to develop for the rotation and keep Joba in the pen, and log 100+ innings as a 7th/8th inning guy.

  • Bo

    Joba would be great in the bullpen if they had 5 good starters going.

    The problem is Jorge remembers the golden era. When they sent out studs everyday. Duque, Cone, Wells, Key, Andy, etc.

    But when you got Ponson and Rasner making 40 starts a yr thats not a playoff team.

    Again you don’t see Toronto putting Halladay in the pen to shorten the game.

    • JohnnyC

      Jorge thinks Halladay would make a great 8th inning guy.

      • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike A.

        That’s why Ned Yost got fired. The front office was furious that he didn’t use CC as his setup guy, the specific reason they acquired him.

  • Frank

    I woke up this morning and breathed a sigh of relief. I come to this sight (and others) because I know intelligent fans post here. I know I can come here for sanity.

    After hearing Jorgie’s quotes and having to listen to Mike Francesa sound so vindicated and happy with himself yesterday, I thought I was going to lose it. I really am sick of this whole “debate” about Joba. I’m relieved to see the reaction today. I know we’re all aware that Jorge Posada has no input as to Joba’s future. It was just that the more people talk about him being in the bullpen, the more I start thinking it’s actually going to happen.

    I have to be honest, if he ended up in the bullpen for ANY reason other than having proved season after season that he’s unable to handle a starter’s role, with the moronic talking heads of the NY media smiling “I told you so,” I would really have to question my fanhood.

    Like Ben K. said, it would be further proof this organization does not know how to develop young pitchers. I have to have faith that Cashman and Co. know what they’re doing.

  • mike

    i was at the game in TX, and you could tell that he was struggling with his slider/off speed pitching that night. we kept waiting for him to be “Joba”, but he didnt seem the same from the first pitch from what i have seen in NY.

    it was hot at the game (99 degrees at 10pm, for instance) but no moreso than a hot game in NY – for instance, saturday’s game – relatively – felt “hotter” than texas.