Heyman: Yanks playing ‘Pick Two’ with pitchers

October 8, 2008 by Benjamin Kabak 122 Comments

Via RAB commenter Tim Dierkes comes a Jon Heyman column with Yankee rumors galore. The Yanks want to sign two of CC Sabathia, A.J. Burnett and Derek Lowe. Sabathia is clearly the best choice, and signing two of them would probably mean that either Andy Pettitte or Mike Mussina will not be coming back next season. Of course, all of this is contingent on these players’ accepting the Yanks offers. In other news, Heyman does not believe that the current state of the U.S. economy will impact the Yanks’ spending.

whozat

1) Man, I hope they don’t sign Burnett. They’ll get burrrrrrned.

2) This seems to point at either Moose retiring, or them only being interested in bringing back one of Moose/Pettitte.
- B
  
  Out of those 3 though, I would rather see CC and Burnett
- JD
  
  How come there isn’t a thread about the Yankees trying to acquire Peavy? I would laugh if they actually somehow made a deal for Peavy and signed Sabathia in the same offeason. Hmm..just imagine:
  
  Peavy
  Sabathia
  Wang
  Joba
  
  as your top 4 of the rotation.
  
  I know this is wishful thinking but I would at least try to explore it.
Yank Crank 20

It’s ok, we don’t need to learn from our past mistakes. Are you coming off of one great year after years of injury-shortened seasons? We’ll overpay for you like we did Pavano. Are you 36 and performing well in an extremely weak league and division? Great! Come to the AL East, you’ll be adequate!

Am I wrong, should I want a guy with an over 5.00 era against teams not named the Yankees and another guy who couldn’t pitch effectively in the AL East when he was 3 years younger than he is now? I certainly hope this is just another blind statement with no truth behind it.
- A.D.
  
  agreed, D-Lowe’s numbers at the end of his Boston career are not exciting
- Chris C.
  
  I could not agree with you more, Yank Crank.
Manimal

Tim comments here? a cubbies fan on a yankee site?
TheLastClown

Im not really too excited about bringing in either Lowe or AJ.

With Lowe you have a high IP guy, who’s truly, remarkably, consistently Average. And who will command some $$ and years.

AJ, as we’ve gone over & again ad nauseum, can be brilliant, can be crap, can get hurt. And again will command some good $$ & years.

Now a similar pitcher to AJ, Sheets, might be a viable FA option. He’s currently hurt, and could get hurt again at anytime, so he’s high risk. Whether he’s truly higher risk than AJ I don’t know, but wouldn’t the Yanks be able to buy low in some sense here, especially if he becomes a TJ candidate? According to him, he’s not going to need the TJ, and will be fine come Spring Training. It’s a risky move, but I like it better than AJ & Lowe.

If Sheets pitches, it’s going to be nice. You don’t have that guarantee w/ either AJ or Lowe. If he doesn’t pitch, he’s hurt, and we have Hughes & Aceves in line to occupy that spot, with several others, as you well know.

So…..could it be

CC
Wang
Joba
Sheets?
Moose/Andy

Or is this just a ridiculous propostion?
- whozat
  
  I don’t know how much of a discount will happen on Sheets. I mean…if he’s willing to take a one or two year deal…I think you’d have to look at him as someone you can’t count on.
  - TheLastClown
    
    Exactly. So then if he comes through, you’ve hit the lottery. If not, slide the chips to the dealer & ante up again.
    - whozat
      
      But, I’m saying that I don’t think that’s going to happen. He’s talented enough that someone will give him an ill-advised number of years. See: Jason Schmidt. No thanks.
      - TheLastClown
        
        Wonder if he’d take less years for higher salary, but being an injury prone pitcher, probably not. Oh well.
- TheLastClown
  
  From MLBTR, there’s an excerpt from an interview w/ Sheets’ agent, who says he’ll be 100% in a month.
  
  While that may be overly optimistic, at least its not the TJ elbow ligament.
Yankees 4ever

what about oliver perez, I know he can be inconsistent and he is from the NL, but he is a lefthander, rarely been injured, throws hard. #4 starter?
- http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.
  
  No. No. No.
  
  Those 100 walks don’t translate well to the AL at all.
  - Chris C.
    
    Exactly right. The AL East has teams that will take 20 walks a ballgame if you’re afraid of the strike zone.
- TheLastClown
  
  Too many BB. 1.42 career WHIP, and that’s in the NL
  
  I don’t want either, but I’d rather take AJ, who at least had his career year in the AL East
  - Chris C.
    
    If AJ Burnett’s “Career Year” is posting an ERA over 4.00, and a 1.40 ERA, the Yankees should run for the hills when this guy’s agent comes calling.
    
    The players want him because he owned them???? I’ve never heard such BS in my life! Scott Feldman owned them too. Do they want him and his 5.29 ERA as well? The Yankees looked bad against plenty of pitchers this year.
    
    If you take away Burnett’s appearences against the Yankees this year, a team he won’t be facing next season if he comes aboard, then he looks an aweful lot like a righthanded Andy Pettitte.
    - TheLastClown
      
      Yeah this is my point about him. I was just saying if it’s a *silly* decision between him & Perez, I take AJ.
      
      Don’t want either of them, just to be clear.
      - Chris C.
        
        If you have to make that kind of a decision, you may be better off letting Hughes, Kennedy, Coke, and Aceves fight it out for the final two spots in the rotation.
        
        The worst thing they can do is spend about 12-15 mill over 4 years for someone they’re not sure about.
    - JD
      
      Um, everyone realizes Burnett hasn’t lost to the Red Sox in his career? If I a choosing between Burnett and Sheets…I take Burnett, because at least with Burnett you know he is AL East tested!
Manimal

Sabathia and Tex. Our line up would be beastly and our rotation would have 3 aces. Maybe 4 if moose is back.
- TheLastClown
  
  Those are the #1 & #2 priority moves IMO.
  
  But there will be more $$ coming off the books than that, especially if we lose both Andy & Moose. So why not make a grab for another starter. You’re almost guaranteed one of them is going to get hurt, at least for a few weeks. Insurance is never bad.
  - Chris C.
    
    You make it sound like the Yankees are sitting around waiting for Pettitte to decide if he wants to come back. Quite frankly, I don’t think the Yankees want him back. In the Daily News today, Cashman was asked about Pettitte, and he replied, “first we have to see what we want to do.”
    Doesn’t sound like they want him back. And unfortunately for Andy, they really shouldn’t.
    - TheLastClown
      
      I wasn’t aiming to make it sound like that. I was just saying that if indeed they don’t have him back, that’s another what, $16M off the books, to be tooled around with in pursuit of another FA besides Tex & CC
  - http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos
    
    But let’s assume we do get CC and Tex. Here’s what we’d then be looking at:
    
    C- Posada (for maybe a year or two before he needs to move to DH)
    1B- Teixeira (for the foreseeable future)
    2B- Cano (for the foreseeable future)
    SS- Jeter (for maybe a year or two before he needs to move to OF)
    3B- ARod (for the foreseeable future)
    LF- Damon (for a year)
    CF- Gardner?
    RF- Nady (for a year)
    DH- Matsui (for a year)
    
    #1- CC (for the foreseeable future)
    #2- Wang (for the foreseeable future)
    #3- Joba (for the foreseeable future)
    #4- Hughes? Kennedy?
    #5- Aceves? Pavano?
    
    While I see the obvious desire to add a second starter to remove more of those questionmarks at the back end of the rotation, wouldn’t it make more sense to spend the money leftover after CC and Tex on another bat, rather than another pitcher?
    
    After all, we do still have the Hughes/Kennedy/Aceves trio, possibly bolstered by one-year deals from Pavano/Pettitte/Mussina, and we have oodles of pitching prospects still in the pipeline and lots of other flex guys who could probably take a few starts here and there (like Giese, Coke, etc.) What we don’t have is many good options in the lineup to supplement the Posada/Teixeira/Cano/Jeter/ARod core.
    
    If we’re going to spend big money on a third contract of substance (which is what Burnett, Sheets, Lowe, etc. etc. would be), why not instead add another bat, like a Manny, Dunn, or Burrell? We’d already have a dynamite, young, locked up big three atop the rotation, with lots of decent options in-house to fill out the 4 and 5 spots. I’d rather lengthen the lineup, especially with the dearth of long-term options we have there.
    - TheLastClown
      
      Totally. I for one would like to see Hughes & Aceves start the year in the rotation, if of course they show well in ST.
      
      It just seems like Cash isn’t going to want to start off the year with one, let alone two, young *unproven* starters. I don’t think it’s a bad idea, but do you think he’ll go with the same strategy two years in a row?
      
      Do you think Pavano has any kind of Yankee future? He’ll probably get a 2-3 year deal somewhere, and I don’t think we’d resign him for any more than one year. That would leave Hughes, Kennedy & Aceves for 2 rotation spots.
      
      I agree with you on the bat issue, of course, having Tex/ARod/Manny as your 3-4-5 and CC/Wang/Joba as your 1-2-3 would be infinitely fun to watch next year.
      
      I do hope the plan you laid out is the general rubric for what happens, however I don’t think Cash will put that much trust in the young guys right off the bat *or pitch, if you will* next year.
    - JD
      
      Hey man, Pavano will not be asked back and Kennedy will probably be kept in the minors until they can get something back in a trade. I think the best chance is the Yankees sign 2 pitchers this offseason with Hughes/Aceves battle it out for that 5th spot.
  - Chris C.
    
    “more money coming off the books” does NOT give you a license to make a whole new round of stupid, senseless signings.
    
    That’s the equivilent of AIG taking their government bailout money, then handing the entire board of new high level executives bonusses.
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

I’m picturing A.J. Burnett signing a 5 year, 90M deal…

Urge to kill… rising…

(sorry, couldn’t resist. I’ll stop.)

WOOOO-SAH!
WOOOO-SAH!
SERENITY NOW!
- TheLastClown
  
  Does your vision have Yankee pinstripes in it?
  - http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos
    
    Yes. It’s a nightmare.
    
    Somebody else spending 15M+ AAV on Burnett >>> Us spending 15M+ AAV on Burnett
    - Reggie C.
      
      TSJC,
      If the Yanks miss out on CC Sabathia, then Burnett does seem to be a solid back-up choice. Would you rather trade the farm for Peavy? The bottom line remains that the Yanks have to pick up a pitcher with some real power.
      
      I’m with you on the Man-Ram pick up. But i’d rather sign Burnett at 15ML AAS than go the Sheets or trade route.
      - Chris C.
        
        If the Yanks miss out on CC Sabathia, then Burnett does seem to be a solid back-up choice.
        
        Why? Will he be pitching against the Yankees? Because if not, he’s a “solid” 4.50 pitcher, with a 1.50 ERA.
        Burnett is fool’s gold. I hope the Yankees don’t become that fool.
        
        Reggie C.
        
        Heh.
        
        The market is what it is. I’m not touting AJ as the Yankee ace. I think Wang still retains that status, but AJ is a darn good #2. He’s shown no ill effects. The trick here is to not have a massive drop off in terms of your top 3 pitchers.
        
        Besides…what else is out there? Greinke’s not available. Peavy is but he’ll be got only thru a costly trade.
        
        Chris C.
        
        “Besides…what else is out there?”
        
        Why should the Yankees settle for overpaying guys who aren’t that good? Sounds like a real dumb play heading into the future. Do you think Boston is saying, “gosh, we’ll need a 4 and 5 starter next year…..let’s overpay for crap.”
        
        “Greinke’s not available. Peavy is but he’ll be got only thru a costly trade.”
        
        On one hand, you don’t seem keen on giving the young guys in the organization a chance. Then on the other hand, you term them as “costly” if they have to deal them for Peavy.
        So if you don’t want to play them, and don’t want to trade them, what value do they have?
      - http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos
        
        If the Yanks miss out on CC Sabathia,
        
        I have yet to hear any compelling or even moderately well thought out explanation of why this would happen.
        
        …then Burnett does seem to be a solid back-up choice.
        
        Yes, in the manner that getting gonorrhea is a “solid backup choice” over getting shot in the head. Frankly, if we DO miss out on Sabathia (we won’t), I’d rather keep my 15M+ (don’t forget the plus, that’s key) and wait for a true ace to hit the market. What I’m not willing to do is get into a bidding war with Peter Angelos and Omar Minaya over a man who needed nine walks to throw a no-hitter.
        
        Would you rather trade the farm for Peavy?
        
        A) Is that the only other option?
        B) Is it even really an option?
cult of basebaal

the best part of the article is that jamie moyer might pitch until he’s 50

HAH! take *that*, julio!
- Chris C.
  
  The worst part of the article is that Jon Heyman wrote it.
  
  He’s the same guy that would have F-Rod winning the AL MVP, and finishing third in Cy Young voting.
  
  That’s right, folks. Jon Heyman thinks F-Rod had a better season than Mariano Rivera, whom he had finishing 10th in Cy Young voting.
  
  Take what this man writes with a grain of salt. A very small grain!
  - http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos
    
    I’d rather take what he says with two cotton balls stuffed in my ears and a blindfold over my eyes.
    - Chris C.
      
      Heyman does not rate pitchers by their statistics. He rates them by their mound hystrionics. When F-Rod points to the sky after a save, that instantly makes him the best closer in the game.
      - http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos
        
        Jose Lima is the greatest player in Major League history.
        
        Sincerely, Jon Heyman.
        
        Chris C.
        
        HE also names Manny Ramirez and CC Sabathia as the top two for the NL MVP.
        
        Now listen……I am not a big fan of the MVP rules at all, but there is something even more ridiculous regarding two players who weren’t even with their new team by the All-Star Break getting MVP votes. It’s just wrong.
        
        And there’s Albert Pujols, who put up monster numbers while hitting just shy of .360, left out in the cold because most of his teammates are about 1 year removed from the minors.
        
        Such a bullshittish award.
        
        JeffG
        
        Totally agree. Why in the hell is MVP a team award?
- http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos
  
  Julio Franco’s first hit was off Cy Young of the 1901 Boston Americans in the first game in AL history.
  
  The Franco-American pasta brand is named for this momentous event.
  - http://www.workwithpete.com Pete
    
    + 1 million
Chris

Sabathia
Wang
Joba
Pettitte
Hughes

I wouldn’t want another likely mediocre pitcher that can’t be sent down when he struggles. If you sign Lowe or Burnett, and post an ERA over 5 in April and May, you’re stuck with them. If Hughes does the same thing, you send him to Scranton with a list of things to work on.
- http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos
  
  Agreed.
- Reggie C.
  
  Yeah. That’s all he needs. Another trip down to Triple A. Hughes has got to stick in the rotation and tough it out. But believe me, alot of commentators, including MYSELF, will jump all over the “don’t trade” hughes crowd.
  - TheLastClown
    
    I think you missed Chris’ point a little. He’s saying that “IF” Hughes has trouble and isn’t sticking in the rotation, due to mechanics or correctable whatnot, he can be sent to AAA to work things out & not take those lumps while we’re watching Yankees’ games.
    
    However, if Lowe or AJ struggle *which they will*, you’ve got to send them out there every 5th day & hope they pull it together.
    - Reggie C.
      
      If you’re putting more faith in Hughes than in AJ or Lowe then you clearly did not watch any baseball this year.
      - TheLastClown
        
        Again, that wasn’t the point. The point is that if/when said pitcher struggles, its a difference in flexibility of options. Hughes *or Kennedy, or Aceves, or whomever* can be sent down to AAA for a little while to iron out kinks. AJ cannot. That is the whole of the point.
        
        And I’ll thank you not to tell me how much baseball I do or don’t watch. I’m of the mind to excuse Hughes’ poor start, and look more at his excellent performance in the last start of the year, coupled with his AAA success and 2007 ALDS showing.
        
        Plus, I’m putting faith him him for the future. I’ve seen AJ Burnett fail many times, and he’s not going to become a better pitcher. Hughes, on the other hand, will indeed become a better pitcher, IMO and that of many others.
        
        I’d even go out on a limb and say Hughes has a better year next year than AJ Burnett
      - Chris C.
        
        Wow, you missed the point TWICE.
        
        The point was that the options are alot easier if Hughes fails than if the other two, making an exorbitant amount of money, fail.
        
        Plus, if it turns out you need a guy like Lowe or Burnett, you can always acquire one at the trade deadline.
      - http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos
        
        If you’re putting more faith in Hughes than in AJ or Lowe then you clearly did not watch any baseball this year.
        
        Agreed. And yet, if Hughes fails, it costs us nothing at all… no money, no opportunity costs. It’s practically not a gamble, because we’re playing with house money.
        
        We have to invest resources (and eliminate other potential player acqusitions or promotions) to acquire Lowe or Burnett.
        
        Huge difference.
        
        I have more faith that Hughes will drastically outperform his contract in ’09, ’10, ’11, ’12, ’13, ’14, ’15, ’16, etc. etc. than I do that Lowe and Burnett will. I also have faith that, say, three years from now, we’ll be real glad that inexpensive, 25-year-old Phil Hughes is pitching for us and not overpaid 34-year-old A.J. Burnett or expensive 38-year-old Derek Lowe
  - Chris C.
    
    Yeah, what a foolish crowd! Imagine a bunch of people being against dealing a 22 year old with a mature mound presence and a bright future if he can remain healthy?
    
    Remember the “don’t trade Pelphrey” crowd? What a bunch of dummies they turned out to be!
http://www.puristbleedspinstripes.com Rebecca-Optimist Prime

The Yankees should be okay as long as goldman sachs doesn’t fold.

Problem is, GS is already on shaky ground.
- Reggie C.
  
  warren buffett wouldn’t have made that 5 billion dollar investment in GS if he thought for a sec that the firm’s financials weren’t good long-term.
  
  Besides, A-rod could always buy a significant portion of the team if the Yanks ran into a credit crunch. Player/Owner … that’s big pimpin!!
  - http://www.puristbleedspinstripes.com Rebecca-Optimist Prime
    
    Haha, yes, A-rod could save the Yankees!
- Steve S.
  
  Goldman’s fine- look who the treasury secretary is.
  - TheLastClown
    
    Seriously
Accent Shallow

The only way I’d want two of that group is if both Mussina and Pettitte retire. Both Burnett and Lowe are going to command significantly more years and money than either of the previous two, for a negligible difference in performance.

While I can see the desire to have four “proven veterans” in the Opening Day rotation, rather than three of those and two kids (Joba, and likely Hughes), I see Burnett and Lowe as priorities 4 and 5, after Sabathia, Moose, and Pettitte.

I can’t see the Yankees signing both Burnett and Lowe. Maybe one of them, and something from the trade market?
E-ROC

CC Sabathia seems to be the priority, but if Moose and Pettitte retire, then I could see the Yanks signing Burnett, Sheets, or Lowe along with CC. I don’t the Yanks would sign CC and another pitcher knowing that either Moose or Pettitte would return.
Mike Pop

Bring AJ baby !! He’s learned how to pitch. Plus thats 3 or 4 more wins a year just by not facing him.. I think hed win us 14 or 15 games a year easy.. I know hes injury proned but shit anyone can get hurt at anytime.. I agree with alot of the posts here but AJ looks better at this point than any of Lowe,Kennedy,Aceves… I want CC and Tex more than anything tho..I would love CC Tex Burnett and Manny but thats a little too greedy.. les be real. 2 of 4 from that group would be a great offfseason.. and evne 2 of those 3 pitchers in this article it would be a great offseason but if we sign burnett you will all start to enjoy watching him pitch and will eventually probably be happy that we signed him
- Chris C.
  
  “I know hes injury proned but shit anyone can get hurt at anytime.”
  
  I think these were the last words spoken by Brian Cashman before witnessing Carl Pavano signing his contract.
  - Mike Pop
    
    Umm okay but look at Beckett he was known to be injury proned but hes done great for the Sox. Burnett would make our rotation look alot better and hitters dont like to face a pitcher like Burnett
    - whozat
      
      Beckett had blister problems. Burnett has had a litany of different joint and ligament issues.
      
      Also, Beckett’s been in Boston three years, and has had one great year with one great post-season. His first year was bad, and this year was mediocre. And he’s making less money than AJ will be. SO…you want to pay more money to a more injury-prone pitcher at a later point in his career?
    - Chris C.
      
      “Umm okay but look at Beckett he was known to be injury proned but hes done great for the Sox.”
      
      Yes he has.
      And he’s still injury-prone. He’s been injured on and off this entire season. Heck, he’s pitching injured right now! If it wasn’t the playoffs, he’d be on the DL as we speak.
      
      “Burnett would make our rotation look alot better and hitters dont like to face a pitcher like Burnett”
      
      Yeah, those hitters are the Yankees. The other hitters around the league have been more than happy to stand in the box and cuff Burnett to the tune of 5 runs per 9 innings, and a lofty WHIP!
ko

The current state of the economy affects everybody. Anyway, after this year, Cashman will clearly cover himself against the possibility that Hughes and Kennedy fall on their faces again this year. Two starters would ensure that protection. If Hughes or Kennedy finally figure out to pitch to big leaguers, then the Yankees have a problem, but its a pleasant one. Can’t have too many of those. While we’re at it, the same goes for catcher. Ideally, the Yanks sign a catcher because they can’t go into the season relying on a 37 year old catcher coming off of major surgery. In that case, if Posada bounces back to normal, then the Yankees have another pleasant problem.
- Reggie C.
  
  Catching is on the examination list… but its behind SP, 1B, CF, RF, & DH in terms of priority.
X-Man

I preffer Lowe and AJ over CC……I like to see Tex in prinstipies in 09

Wang
AJ
Lowe
Joba
Hughes

in 2010: are too many 1A on the market and les$$ than CC
Lackey
Beckett
Peavy(trade)
Darvish
- http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos
  
  I preffer Lowe and AJ over CC
  
  Good god, why? They’re both such inferior pitchers to CC that it’s laughable.
  
  Please explain.
  - X-Man
    
    I know…but 140mm for only one pitcher(the best in the market, but no in the game) is a lot of $$, and a lot a pression in one pitcher..the people are going to think this guy is all, the Yanks are going to the WS, etc…
    
    Lowe and AJ are to guys can ear a lot of innigs, less pression, playoff pedrigree(Lowe)
    
    Lackey,Bekkett,Peavy*,Darvish are aviable in 2010
    - greg
      
      the word is pressure…
  - http://www.freewebs.com/ps3tf2/ Double-J
    
    I guess he’s saying that next years crop of FA’s will be better so we could save money by passing on CC and then going for one of the four he mentioned (one of whom will still be a trade…).
    
    Meh, give me CC.
- Chris C.
  
  “I preffer Lowe and AJ over CC……”
  
  You have got to be shitting me!
  Unless you’re the guy paying the freight, how could you say something so dumb?
  - A.D.
    
    he rather diversify his FA pitchers then go whole hog. Its not “so dumb” if you sign CC and he gets hurt right away it looks brilliant.
    
    I also disagree, but I understand his angle
EDUB

Interesting thing to look at re: AJ. Burnett really had 5 terrible starts, all in the first half.

7 Apr 8 OAK 5 L 8-9 4.2 10 6 6 2 1 0
64 Jun 7 BAL 5 L 5-9 L 4.1 10 8 8 4 5 0
74 Jun 19 @MIL 5 L 7-8 L 5 8 8 8 4 5 2
87 Jul 4 @LAA 4 L 2-8 L 7 12 8 6 0 3 2
91 Jul 9 BAL 4 W 9-8 W 5.1 7 7 7 3 7 1

I know you can’t just take games out but if you look at his ERA without these 5 starts hes really kept his team in the game all year and would have a much better looking 3.297
- Chris C.
  
  Here’s another interesting thing to look at………in a 10 year career, this is the first season Burnett won more than 12 games, only the 2nd season in which he made at least 30 starts, and only the 3rd in which he exeeded 200 innings.
  
  Does this sound like Mr. Long-Term Investment to you?
- YankCrank20
  
  That’s good reasoning, did you know if you took out all of Ian Kennedy’s bad starts he’d have a 0.00 ERA. That’s perfect pitching baby
  - JeffG
    
    See that’s the major issue is that you’d have to take All Kennedy’s starts out to make him look good. And innings how many times have Hughes or Kennedy gone deep? I do wish them the best but to start the season is not what I call a good idea.
Januz

Every single team in sports has to think about spending (The Yankees are no different). Heyman, and every columnist who is involved with baseball knows that all you need to do is MENTION the Yankees and interest is generated somewhere.
When management does not know what they are doing yet, how can Heyman? (That includes the question about Mussina?) I trust Cashman more than Heyman (Has Cashman been honest with the public? I think he a large extent he has).
Sometimes, I just don’t get it. I have actually seen some posters favoring bringing back Abreu and Pavano, and others advocating long-term contracts for Burnett. Is it possible that the Board Of Directors of WAMU & Wachovia have decided to become internet bloggers here? (Pavano and Abreu remind me of bad, adjustable rate loans that, will adjust UPWARD, unless they are dunped. Who else would CONSIDER holding decling assets such as them? ) Why else is there no comprehension of today’s economic reality (Suggesting they give Manny $25m a year. on a day when the market goes down 500 points)?
- http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos
  
  Dude, your economic metaphors have their heart in the right place, but you’re taking them way too far.
  
  Sure, Abreu and Pavano are declining assets, but saying that we should dump them simply for that reason leaves out a lot of other vagaries of baseball, like how best to assemble a 25 and 40-man roster. Some assets, like Pavano, Pettitte, Mussina, etc. have additional value due to the minimized risk of their shorter contracts, even as their production dips and despite their high salaries.
  
  You’re not really expected to take your top 25 securities and have them compete agaisnt somebody elses top 25 securities, or agree with your securities to keep them for a specified number of years…
Bill

What kind of SP can we get get for: Veras, Melky, and Aceves?
- Mike Pop
  
  Jamie Moyer
- http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos
  
  I dunno… Matt Clement? Carlos Silva? Josh Fogg? Tim Redding, maybe? Jorge De La Rosa?
  
  Would you like me to stop?
  - Chris C.
    
    And none of those players would be worth it, becasue Veres and Aceves could end up figuring largely in the Yankees plans.
- Chris C.
  
  Why do you want to trade Aceves? Just wondering.
  
  Because the guy certainly impressed the hell out of me!
- YankCrank20
  
  You can just pick up David Wells and keep all of those players!
- Mike Pop
  
  Rich Hill for 2 of those 3 ?
Glen L

Without passing judgment on the wisdom behind a burnett signing

this year he has a 3.52 FIP, 9.3 K/9, 2.66 K/BB ratio

those are pretty good numbers AND they obviously include his shitty starts from the beginning of the year
- X-Man
  
  and probably 95mm less than CC
  - http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos
    
    ????!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
    
    You think Burnett would cost ninety-five million less than CC?
    Where did you get that ridiculous figure?
    - X-Man
      
      lol, sorry 75, no 95
      
      CC 145
      Aj 70
      - Rob
        
        I see no way that CC gets more than Santana. Not in this economy.
        
        AJ I could see getting 15/4=60. The market pressure will be on shorter cheaper contracts – Garland, Perez, etc.
        
        http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos
        
        I doubt 4 years and 60M cuts it. After we sign CC, as we should, Burnett would be the unquestioned #1 starter on the market and the Mets, Red Sox, Orioles, Blue Jays, Phillies, Cubs, Braves, Astros, etc. will still be lining up to pay him, even in the economic downturn.
        
        (btw, cheap entertainment, like baseball and the movies, generally benefits from depressions and recessions rather than getting hurt, fwiw.)
        
        15M AAV is probably Burnett’s floor, not his ceiling. I could easily see Minaya, Angelos, and Gillick talking themselves into 4yr/75M or 5 yr/90M…
        
        http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos
        
        http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2008/09/rosenthals-la-4.html
        
        By Tim Dierkes [September 29, 2008 at 3:18pm CST]
        
        Rosenthal notes that an offer of essentially four years, $54MM from the Jays won’t cut it for A.J. Burnett. Instead of $13.5MM a year, he’ll receive $15-20MM per according to Rosenthal. Ken sees the Yankees, Red Sox, and Mets in the mix if C.C. Sabathia winds up on the West Coast.
        
        Jeff Blair muses on Burnett in the Globe and Mail today. He sees Burnett getting between $15-18MM per year, and more than the four years the Jays are willing to give. Interesting note from Buster Olney last weekend – he says the Braves have been scouting Burnett closely.
        
        ——————–
        
        Thanks for the tip, Tim Dierkes!
        
        Chris C.
        
        This unbelievable hype around Burnett is the same crap we heard regarding Pavano when he was a FA.
        
        But at least Pavano had just posted a 3.00 ERA, and was stellar in the World Series!!
        
        I just don’t get it. Can someone please explain the appeal of AJ Burnett to me? I’m not seeing it.
        
        And to think that his numbers will improve when he comes to the Yankees is basically being naive regarding FA pitchers joining the Yankees over the past 40 years.
  - Chris C.
    
    and probably 95mm less than CC
    
    Are you trying to save money for the Yankees, or build a better ballclub?
    - X-Man
      
      both….remember the top are 180mm….and we need a 1b
X-Man

top of the payroll
Rob

I could talk myself into Burnett for this reason:

Career at:
FenwayP – 3 GS, 22 IP, 0.40 ERA
YankeeS – 4 GS, 25 IP, 2.88 ERA
Camden – 4 GS, 25 IP, 3.91 ERA
Tropican – 7 GS, 54 IP, 2.30 ERA
SkyDom – 39 GS, 277 IP, 3.77 ERA

That’s pretty darn solid against the teams he see 1/3 of the time. Better, they could probably get him for Moose/Pettitte average yearly money (15-16M) but over four or five years. You know what? It’s not my money.

I agree with others though – buy CC and offense (Tex and Manny) first. Burnett is a luxury. Still, all four could probably be had for $80M a year.
- Chris C.
  
  Here………allow me to talk you out of Burnett…….
  
  You can take all those numbers and toss them out the window, because every single FA pitcher…….EVERY ONE……who comes to the Yankees for big money, does not pitch nearly as well as he did at his last stop. It’s amazing! The Yankees are batting 1,000 in this area. The list is endless of pitchers who regress once they put on the pinstripes. Now, that’s okay regarding Sabathia, because that would still give him a nice season……..figure a 3.30 ERA.
  But not Burnett.
  
  So the best case scenario you can hope for from Burnett is this: He could end up having the same season he just had this year…..posting an ERA around 4.00. But after 2009, he’ll sink like a stone, and become the new Pavano.
  
  This is a recurring movie in Yankeeland that I’ve seen more often than Caddyshack!
  - Rob
    
    “You can take all those numbers and toss them out the window, because every single FA pitcher…….EVERY ONE……who comes to the Yankees for big money, does not pitch nearly as well as he did at his last stop.”
    
    Is this a law of the universe? So we can surmise that EVERY ONE……who comes to the Yankees for big money, WILL NOT pitch nearly as well as he did at his last stop. Yeah, I seem to remember Newton saying something like when while he was inventing calculus and gravity.
    
    Or maybe it’s a curse? Maybe the baseball gods have cursed the Yankees because of their awesomeness and ruled that the one Achilles’ Heel for their history will be FA pitchers?
    
    Damn you, seeker of truth! Forever more the Yankees MUST NOT ever pursue ANY free agent pitcher! The logic is SOO clear!
    - Chris C.
      
      “Is this a law of the universe? So we can surmise that EVERY ONE……who comes to the Yankees for big money, WILL NOT pitch nearly as well as he did at his last stop.”
      
      They haven’t, have they? So instead of posting a whole lot of nonsense, perhaps you’d like to rattle off the names of the big FA pitchers who have come here flourished.
      Like I said, CC Sabathia would work, because he’s so good, that even a drop-off in is production would be sufficient.
      But looking at the year Burnett had, would a drop-off work for him?
- Chris C.
  
  “I agree with others though – buy CC and offense (Tex and Manny) first. Burnett is a luxury.”
  
  Oh, I see………BURNETT’s the luxury. Got it.
  
  Statements like these are why people hate Yankee fans, in case we didn’t already know.
  - Rob
    
    The New York Yankees are going to have >$400M in net revenues next year. They better spend it cause they sure as hell ain’t handing out discounts.
    - Chris C.
      
      Spending money just for the sake of spending money doesn’t automatically make you better. You have to have a proper plan in place.
      
      Otherwise, how do you explain the fact that the more money the Yankees have spent over the past 8 years, the more holes they put in the team? And the more the Red Sox DIDN’T spend, the better they’ve gotten?
Ricochet

If that is indeed the case that they want to sign 2 out of the 3 then IMO it means 1 or 2 things either the Yankees are keeping Joba in the pen and will groom him to be Mo’s successor or that they will trade Hughes to improve the club elsewhere.

So a rotation of

Sabathia
Wang
Burnett/Lowe
Joba
Pettitte

or

Sabathia
Wang
Burnett/Lowe
Pettitte
Hughes

Either is fine with me as the Yankees would have a better bullpen while setting it up to stay very good in the future or that the Yankees would get better and most likely younger at another position if Hughes is traded. So either way the Yankees are getting better for the present while improving there future as well.
- Chris C.
  
  Why would you trade Hughes to upgrade another position in which you can sign a FA costing you no players?????? That is patently ridiculous.
  
  The Yankees have already said that Chaimberlin is a starter next year.
  What do you mean “groom him”? His hair is too long? Needs a shave?
  
  You’d rather have the Yankees get younger at another position while having an older starting rotation? Yikes! The 4 remaining playoff teams just called…….they disagree with that plan.
  
  Why would you bring Pettitte back? Honestly, were you impressed in any way by a guy who posted a .500 record, high ERA, ridiculous WHIP, consistently high pitch counts, God-aweful outings down the stretch when the team needed them, and only half the heart to return anyway?
  Let’s bring him back because he shut the Braves down in game 5 of the 1996 WS?
McCaff

How much does the “pick two” philosophy/strategy effect us signing Mark Texeira or Manny ramirez or another high level player?
Chris

Everyone needs to remember the source of this rumor – Hank has not exactly been a reliable source.
Steve

This presents an interesting question. Who would you rather have to win next year, Pettite or AJ Burnett? All personal feelings aside, just as a pure Baseball decision.

I still come down on Andy’s side. Main reason is Andy is a big time innings eater, wheras and AJ isn’t. He’s also playoff tested, a lefty and important presence in the clubhouse. Even on a down year like this one his numbers really aren’t that much different from AJ’s. In AJ’s defense, he’s a much better strikeout pitcher than Andy is, and that usually translates well in the post season.

I would expect both guys to pitch to a 4-ish ERA, but I expect Andy to give me 200+ IP and I can’t expect that from AJ.
- Chris C.
  
  “Main reason is Andy is a big time innings eater”
  
  He’ll be 37 in June……I have a feeling his appetite for innings won’t be as ravonous in the future. Quality innings, that is.
  
  “He’s also playoff tested….”
  
  He has a career 4.00 ERA in the postseason. Don’t pull a muscle doing backflips. He’s been “hit of miss” throughout his postseason career.
  
  “Even on a down year like this one his numbers really aren’t that much different from AJ’s.”
  
  “I would expect both guys to pitch to a 4-ish ERA, but I expect Andy to give me 200+ IP”
  
  What good is a guy giving you 200+ innings, if they’re lousy? The Yankees can bring up a string of minor leaguers to do that! I remember when the White Sox got Vazquez from Arizona because he was an “innings eater”.
  Trouble was, he got SMOKED in those innings he was eating.
  
  Aside from the fact that Burnett turned it up a notch down the stretch for Toronto, while Pettitte dove right into the tank in games the Yankees had to have, you’re right. When a 26 year old pitcher has a subpar season, it can be a “down year”. When a 36 year old pitcher does, it means he’s nearing the end of his career.
Steve

As far as finding a CF goes, I dont see it happening. The trade market looks thin and the FA market isn’t much better. With Gardner providing stellar defense and A-Jax waiting in the wings as a possible mid/late season call up, signing or trading for someone long term doesn’t make much sense.

However, Mike Cameron on a 1-year deal might make sense as an insurance policy. Some scouts doubt Gardner’s ability to hit lefties, and Cameron hits lefties well. Cameron has also always been known for his fielding. He could be a good veteran presence in the clubhouse and either start vs lefties or come off the bench. Think of him as the Tim Raines of 2008.
- Chris C.
  
  “However, Mike Cameron on a 1-year deal might make sense as an insurance policy.”
  
  UUggghhh. The last thing the Yankees need is a guy who strikes out 150 times a season, ond only reaches base 33% of the time. His last stay in NY wasn’t exactly a smashing success, and he’s driven in 100 runse only ONCE in a 14 year career.
  
  No thanks. I’d rather stick Gardner out there, and watch him rattle the crap out of pitchers when he’s on base. Giving a kid with that kind of speed only a sporadic half a season to become a star is a bit silly.
  
  And who cares if he’s a “singles” hitter. He turns them into doubles anyway with his speed.
- Chris C.
  
  “Cameron has also always been known for his fielding. He could be a good veteran presence in the clubhouse and either start vs lefties or come off the bench.”
  
  Veteran presense in the clubhouse? That’s been the problem…….too many veterans in the clubhouse!
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ODannyBoy16

I have to say, I think the whole Yankee Community is massively overreacting to missing the playoffs. We need to remember what gets teams into big messes like this; poor player development, and *long term contracts given to players with maximum risk*.

Just take a look at the list of baseball’s history with 9 figure contracts. There are an extremely small number of them that could be called total successes. Add to that the deals that looked good for a time, but handcuffed teams over the later years of the pact. About half of these megadeals were complete disasters – among those almost ALL of the contracts for starting pitchers.

Those are the odds you want to play with here? We have people here who want to add not one, but TWO contracts that will be among the 15 largest in baseball history this winter?

I think this is maximizing risk. Thus, I am not for adding any of the top three pitchers; CC, Burnett or Sheets. If you’re gonna sign a megadeal, you sure as hell better make it for a position player, and I think it should be for someone we’re sure about, and I don’t think anyone here is truly sold on Teixeira.

I know this is an unpopular opinion, so unpopular that I can’t imagine Cashman actually taking this course of action. But I have to know if there are fans out there who feel similarly.
- Chris C.
  
  “I know this is an unpopular opinion, so unpopular that I can’t imagine Cashman actually taking this course of action. But I have to know if there are fans out there who feel similarly.”
  
  I do. I think Cashman feels this way too, but his hands are tied by the organizational philosophy that George, and now Hank forces down his throat.
  
  But you can’t fight City Hall. The truth is, the Yankees will keep operating the way they are operating, the fans will keep clamoring for the biggest FA out there then blame the GM when he flops, and the young kids in the organization will either be traded, not developed properly, or be blocked from getting their chance because Mr. Underachiever has to take the mound because he makes 16 mill a year! Same old story.
  
  Until the Yankees start investing wisely in a better scouting and player developement department and give themselves a viable chance to build from within, like the Red Sox are doing, you can expect many more years of an offense that looks old, sluggish, and plays station-to-station baseball, and a staff that keeps breaking down or can’t even give you 7 crisp innings due to age or arm issues.
  - ODannyBoy16
    
    I think we definitely need to talk more about handing a 9 figure deal to Sabathia, or for that matter, any 28 year old starting pitcher. Pitchers are so much more unpredictable than position players, as well as being much more fragile. Sure, ace pitchers are rare, and extremely valuable, but it’s so much wiser to GROW them than the buy them.
    
    Top SPs have brilliant primes to their careers, but so many have major in-career break downs due to injury, age, technique, or an inability to deal with loss of stuff. There are veterans who toss consistent innings and can get outs with guile, and there are younger guys who can get outs with stuff. Both are good investments. It’s really, really dangerous to throw $140 million at a guy who has thrown so many innings already, is not in good shape, and who may or may not want to be here with us.
    
    If you need to sign a megadeal this winter, or ever, make sure it’s a position player. I’m not entirely sold on Tex , but I can at least get behind the idea. Better than throwing money at risky vets, save your big money to reward young pitchers that you’ve grown and know.
    
    I feel really confident the Mets will regret dumping all that money on Santana, and we will feel the same way about CC – just like every other long term huge money deal given to SPs in their prime who are still relying on the superior talent that got them through their first 6 or 7 years.
    - Chris C.
      
      “I think we definitely need to talk more about handing a 9 figure deal to Sabathia, or for that matter, any 28 year old starting pitcher.”
      
      Since the age of 20, this guy ALREADY has almost 1700 major league innings on his arm, which includes the Brewers utilizing him like it was a high-arc softball league. Would anyone honestly be stunned if he went under the knife before age 30?
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