Oct
23

Into the Mike Cameron fray

By

As much as we don’t like to comment on rumors from The Post, in an earlier thread today, Steve noted a brief piece in Alexander Hamilton’s paper suggesting that the Yanks are interested in Mike Cameron. Since the Yanks are looking for a center fielder and Cameron could be a free agent this year, it’s worth it to spend a few minutes looking at Cameron.

First up is the issue of Cameron’s current contract. In 2008, the Brewers paid the outfielder $5 million. They hold a $10 million option or a $750,000 buyout. If the Brewers either need a center fielder or anticipate a high demand for Cameron, they could opt to pick up the buyout. However, $10 million for his level of production at his age seems a bit steep.

So going under the assumption that Mike Cameron will be a free agent, what would this option look like? Cameron will be 36 on Opening Day and has always been a good defender. For his career, he’s a .250 hitter with a 106 OPS+. He still has decent power — .477 slugging in park that slightly favors hitters — but he’s coming off successive seasons at around .240 with an OBP hovering around .330.

Clearly, in this regard, Cameron wouldn’t be much of a long-term solution in center. He’s too old; he’s not very good at hitting. But should the Yanks even consider him as a short-term solution?

Right now, the Yankees have a few center field options. They could keep Johnny Damon in center. That is, by far, their best offensive option but their worst defensive choice. They could go with some platoon of Melky Cabrera and Brett Gardner. Odds are that one or both of them could get on base at a better clip than Cameron, but the power isn’t even close. They could look to trade for someone such as Matt Kemp or Nate McLouth, but neither of those would come cheap or with guarantees.

Cameron is definitely not Plan A for the Yankees. He probably isn’t even Plan B in center, but the Yanks are more concerned, rightly so, with CC Sabathia and Mark Teixeira. Cameron would be acceptable as a one-year solution if the Yanks felt that Austin Jackson would be ready by 2010. But fans advocating for this solution should be aware that Cameron’s offense will not be the great. He’ll hit a bit for power, but he strikes out a lot and doesn’t get on base. It’s a lukewarm option at best.

Categories : Hot Stove League
  • http://www.riveraveblues.com Joseph P.

    Will he hit for power, though? He’s a year older, and righties don’t fare as well knocking balls out of Yankee Stadium.

    • A.D.

      he hit 20 each year in SD….no one fares well hitting them out of PetCo

      • JD

        What about bringing back a Juan Rivera type instead? I’m alright with a BG/Damon/Melk rotation type platton in center with Damon getting the majority of the playing time in LF though.

    • Steve

      -First, thanks to Ben for the h/t. Much appreciated.

      -Next, HOLY SHIT I didn’t think MIKE CAMERON would generate 219 responses.

      -Finally, as I stated earlier I see him in a platoon with Gardner with Gardner getting the bulk of the playing time assuming he produces. Cameron’s overall line doesn’t look great, but if you just use him against left handers you’re getting this

      .282BA .397OBP .555SLG .951OPS

      which is VERY nice production.

      http://www.baseball-reference......;year=2008

      • http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.

        You and me both, Steve. Lotta responses here.

        My question for you though is this: For the amount that Cameron will get, that’s an expensive platoon, no? Plus, the Yanks face way more righties than lefties. So who plays against the righties if we’re trying to optimize production?

        • Steve

          He made 5 mil with the Brewers last year, so in terms of $$ its not crazy. And I like Brett Gardner, I like his range and the havoc he causes on the base paths. But some scouts doubt his ability to hit lefties. So I’ll give him a shot to win the job out of ST, and sit him against Lefties.

          To me getting Cameron wouldn’t be a sign the Yanks dont like Gardner, rather its a sign that they do. Its them assuming that he will win the job and trying to protect themselves against his downside. Girardi seems to love Brett, so its not a stretch to figure he’d win the job.

          Its also not a straight platoon, you have to carry a 4th OFer in any case. Gardner will play LF on the days Damon needs off, which is usually around once a week. Cammy could DH some days against finesse righties to keep his bat going. He could also come off the bench late in games to face a bullpen lefty, and Gardner could pinch run and be a late inning defensive replacement in LF. I could easily see Gardner playing 5-6 days a week and Cammy 3-4 in some capacity.

          • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

            Exactly. In looking at the Cameron question, we should begin by looking holistically at the outfield situation we have. Heading into 2009, we’ve got:

            - Bobby Abreu, a good offensive producer who’s pretty bad in RF and will probably leave in search of a multi-year deal that we won’t (and shouldn’t) give him;
            -Johnny Damon, a good offensive producer who has serious health/age concerns and is a serious defensive liability in anywhere except LF, and should probably be rested/spelled aggressively to keep him fresh/healthy, and who’ll be leaving the team after 2009;
            -Xavier Nady, a decent if unspectacular bat who is average defensively and can’t handle CF, and who’s contract is up after 2009;
            -Brett Gardner, a young kid with promise who could be a decent slap-hitting high OBP guy if he improves, but who struggles against lefties a bit and is still pretty unproven;
            -Melky Cabrera, who has regressed mightily over the past few seasons to the point that his bat is such a liability that he’s virtually unusable and who should likely spend the year in Scranton working with a special hitting instructor one-on-one to see if he’s even salvageable,
            -Hideki Matsui, who shouldn’t even be considered an outfielder anymore (and who’s also gone after this year)
            -Austin Jackson, who could be a legit young CF of the future but who probably won’t be ready until 2010 at the earliest.

            That’s three old guys who are average/poor/injury-prone defenders, none of whom are under contract beyond this year, two young guys who are unproven (or unusable), and a kid who won’t be here for a year or two.

            Is bringing in Mike Cameron, a guy who, while he’s not exceptional at anything, is a decent veteran hitter who’s not going to embarrass himself and is capable of playing all three outfield positions well above average really that bad of an idea? Is he really going to create a massive logjam of catastrophic proportions? I doubt it.

            I’m fine with a one year or a two year deal. He’s like a Jose Molina (who can hit) or a Wilson Betemit (who can field) to me: he’s not the superstar flashy addition that solves all your problems, but for a year or two he’s going to bring way more to the table than he takes off it and give you great roster/lineup flexibility.

            We don’t have a lot of outfielders. The ones we do are all noticeably bad at some facet of the game. Cameron isn’t.

  • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike A.

    If they could get him on a one yr deal, or even one with an option, why not? It ould give Gardner a chance to play regularly in AAA, and keep Melky in the 4th OF role, which he’s best suited for.

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.

      But at this point, is there anything left for Gardner at AAA? He had a full year there and doesn’t stand to benefit more from that. Would you not say that what you see is what you get with Gardner right now?

      • radnom

        All three authors commenting at once?

        I agree with Ben here, but at the same time I would support a Cameron deal because what we’ve seen from Gardener does not give any confidence to turn over the keys to CF without some other options not named Melky.

        • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

          “All three authors commenting at once?”

          I’m at the corner of First and First! I must be at the Nexus of the Universe!

          • Mike Pop

            This guy is a jerky irrelevant bastard

            • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

              You’re officially on my shit list, Mikey. I’m going to beat the snot out of you like I’m Steve Smith and you’re Ken Lucas.

              • Mike Pop

                Bring it on son your going down.. I’ll see you at the Nfl draft

                • Slugger27

                  i dont get it… neither of those players would be at the draft

                  maybe im overthinking it

                • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

                  You are.

        • Chris C.

          This is a joke.

          What have you seen from Gardner, dude? Because if you haven’t seen a guy who started off slow, being that it was his first trip to the majors, then improved immensly over the last portion of the season, then I don’t really know what you were watching.

          And damn, can that kid cover ground in the outfield.

      • Nady Nation

        If it’s what you see is what you get with Gardner, then I will pass. Besides for his speed, which Cameron also has, what can you say Gardner will definitely do better than Cammy? I disagree that it’s a “lukewarm” option for the Yanks in the short-term. I think it’s a very good fit and I hope they strongly look into the type of contract that Mike suggested, paving the way for A-Jax to come up when he’s ready.

        • http://www.new.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#/profile.php?id=594331910&ref=name Jamal G.

          what can you say Gardner will definitely do better than Cammy?

          At this point in their respective careers, I’m sure Brett Gardner can get to a few more fly-balls in the outfield that Mike Cameron simply can not. Also, I’m sure that Gardner can get on-base a bit more frequently than Cameron can.

          • A.D.

            BG will also steal more bases, he had 4 less than cammy in 98 less games this year

          • frits

            I was looking over Cameron’s defensive stats this morning at THT. They aren’t fantastic, but they aren’t half bad. Slightly worse than Melkster on the year, at least w/r/t RZR rating.

          • Nady Nation

            You’re sure of it, yet we haven’t seen anything to prove that. Of course it’s possible, I’m just saying I don’t think it’s as mediocre of an option as Ben seems to think it is.

            • A.D.

              Gardner: .961 ZR 3.19 RF
              Melky: .917 ZR 2.58 RF
              Cameron: .892 ZR 2.52 RF
              Damon: .882 ZR 2.46 RF

              Making Gardner & Melk the best fielders statistically. However Gardner’s numbers are obv. a small sample size, as are Damon’s for that matter.

      • Chris C.

        No, I would not say that at all.

        What I see from Gardner is a solid outfielder with a pretty decent arm who has lightening speed and is a pest on the bases. I also saw a guy who’s hitting improved as he hit .294 in August and September after a slow start, and turned singles into doubles. Over the course of a full season, his 13 stolen bases would translate to about the 50-65 range.
        This guy is a weapon that the Yankees haven’t had at the top of their order for a while now.

        Home runs??? Are you people kidding me? Who gives a crap about homers, when this guy can fly on the bases?

        Does he need improvements? Sure. But the Yankees need to give this guy a chance, because talented players who can run like he can and disrupt pitchers for the hitters in back of him do not come along that often.

        • steve (different one)

          Home runs??? Are you people kidding me? Who gives a crap about homers, when this guy can fly on the bases?

          you are really confident for someone who doesn’t really know what he is talking about most of the time.

          • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

            I like how every statement is like a personal affront to him.

            Me: Hey, Chris, I’m going to the store to get a Sprite. You want one?

            Chris C.: DO I WANT A SPRITE??? ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?!? OF COURSE I WANT A SPRITE!!!!!! YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS!?!?!??!

            Chris C. = John McEnroe

            • Chris C.

              I just can’t believe Yankee fans keep advocating the same stupid moves every offseason. That’s why I appear like I can’t believe what people type.

              So far, we want Pettitte back, want Mussina back, want to sign Lowe, and bring in Cameron.
              Ages 37, 40, 37, 36.

              And I’m the one who doesn’t know what he’s talking about.
              Whatever, champ.
              Yeah, let’s get Cameron. Great move.

              • Slugger27

                dude, look at our pitching staff for 2009 absent any free agents… SCARY

                how can u NOT be in favor of pettitte or moose?

                • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

                  MULTIPLE INTERROBANGS!!?!??!??!???!??!?!

                • Chris C.

                  “dude, look at our pitching staff for 2009 absent any free agents… SCARY

                  how can u NOT be in favor of pettitte or moose?”

                  Mussina is the only one I wouldn’t mind having back. Pettitte is pointless. I don’t get why people want him back. He was terrible this season, and will be 37 next year. He’s gonna get better?

                  WANG
                  Chamberlain
                  Sabathia or a FA under 33 years old.
                  Mussina
                  Hughes/Aceves/Kennedy/Coke/Geise

                  GET YOUNGER!!!!!!!
                  Damn, look at the Phillies, Rays, and Red Sox!

                  The only guys over 30 on those staffs are Wakefield and Moyer. And they stink!

                • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

                  Yes, I seem to be having trouble controlling THE VOLUME OF MY VOICE!!!!!

                  How do I tell these people that due to the unfreezing process, I have no inner monologue?

                • Chris C.

                  Nice, Powers.

                  In a related note, I seem to notice you have a habit of following my posts around. I have no choice but to take that as a compliment, despite your expected reasoning that I shouldn’t.

                  At least you’re not like the other dude, who nitpicks individual words from an entire post, instead of processing the entire message.

                • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

                  You’re like my idiot muse. The musky scent of your lobotomy calls to me.

  • radnom

    I can’t see the Brewer’s picking up the option and trying to trade him. How much value can the really get back considering he is owed $10 million? They would be better off taking the compensation pick the article mentions.

    If they don’t keep him around to play CF for them, why not sign him? Its not going to be that much money and as long as its not multiple years it would be good to have so OF options at least.

  • A.D.

    I prefer going with BG, power isn’t a major issue with the team, I don’t think anyone will look at the Yanks (even with Big G and Abreu gone) and say “no one on that team can hit it out, man the yankees need a power guy”

    We know BG & Melk can play defensively, perhaps not to Cameron’s level, but pretty damn good, and figure Cameron has to be losing a step at this point. Hope that Melk can bounce back, or BG adjusts as he has done at every level of his career to give the .280+/.370+/370+ line.

    On top of that, I’d be surprised if Cameron took a 1 yr deal, he only took this deal because he was suspended for about a month to start the season

    • steve (different one)

      I prefer going with BG, power isn’t a major issue with the team,

      actually, it’s a huge issue, no?

      if Giambi and Abreu are gone, this team is going to be seriously short on power.

      • Charlie (in SD)

        A-rod, Nady, Jorge (hopefully he comes back strong). I think the team would be foolish not to bring Abreu back.

        • Reggie C.

          If you think nady and Jorge are going to help out in the slugging department you are rolling the dice big-time. I’m thinking that last season was a spike season for Nady. Now that he’s in the AL east, he’ll see tougher pitching. The numbers will be down. Is he a solid regular? Yes. That i do believe. Posada has never been much a power guy. He’s another year older. Posada is a solid regular, and as a full-time catcher, that’s all we should hope for.

          Power is a major issue with this team. Teixeira is a must.

          • A.D.

            In my mind when I wrote the post:

            Major issues in 2008 = Mets bullpen, Seattle’s team, Texas pitching (Ponson lead the team in ERA), SD offense.

            Yankees power will not be that caliber in 2009 unless Arod & Nady goes down, and we sign no one

      • Slugger27

        it is a big issue, but we also have to consider the position. CF is a defense priority position… power is nice, but im not sure a lack of power is or should be a deal-breaker when dealing with SS, 2B, or CF

      • Chris C.

        Well, I wouldn’t call Cameron a “power hitter”. He hit 20 homers, and struck out a ton. That’s what you want? And he’s 36 years old.

        You want power? Address it elsewhere…….like inking Teixeira. Or having Matsui back a full season. And Posada’s return. And Nady here a full season.

        Screw power. We need guys who can RUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

        • steve (different one)

          You want power? Address it elsewhere…….like inking Teixeira.

          sure, this has been mentioned several times in this thread. if they add enough power elsewhere, they can possibly get by with Gardner.

          Screw power. We need guys who can RUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

          come on, you are just f’ing with all of us, right?

          • Chris C.

            “come on, you are just f’ing with all of us, right?”

            Not at all. We have AROD. Posada will be back. MAtsui will hopefull be healthier. We got Nady. Maybe Abreu’s back. MAybe Teixeira comes aboard.
            Have you seen these guys run the bases this year?? Grass grows quicker.

            Does AROD have to lead the team in everything?

            The Yankees desperately need a baserunner who will rattle pitchers. Gardner could be that guy.

            • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

              Chris, you keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

              • Chris C.

                What word?

                • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

                  [rolls eyes]

    • Charlie (in SD)

      Exxxxxxactly! I can understand the need for a CF that can hit for power on the Padres or most other teams, but these Yankees have plenty of guys who can powder the ball. I say, make the Melk-man and Gardner duke it out. A little competition would do wonders to get guys hungry again. I’d really like to see Gardner get that regular CF spot. I admit, I might be a little biased since his playing style reminds me of myself in my playing days. (many moons ago)

      In short, it seemed like the Yanks hit a lot of solo homers this year, with Brett’s ability to run out hits and get on base, hopefully we’ll see more 2-run homers. Twice as nice!

      -C

    • http://www.new.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#/profile.php?id=594331910&ref=name Jamal G.

      “no one on that team can hit it out, man the yankees need a power guy”

      Actually, that’s exactly what they will say. Outside of Alex Rodriguez, who can you reasonably expect to give you 20-25 Home Runs in 2009? Xavier Nady seems to be the only valid answer. Jorge Posada is coming off shoulder surgery, Hideki Matsui is a year older and coming off consecutive off-season knee surgeries, and Robinson Cano’s power is still in the land of potential at this point.

      Unless they ink Mark Teixeira to a mega-deal or you expect Juan Miranda to have a superb rookie season, the Yankees’ power will be greatly diminished in the 2009 season.

      • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike A.

        They should trade for Ryan Howard. He’s looked awesome in the postseason.

        • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

          Ryan Howard = Pedro Cerrano

      • A.D.

        diminished, certainly, but not a glaring issue, I doubt pitchers/teams simply won’t be afraid of Yankees being able to hit the ball out.

        The 1996 yankees had 2 guys with 20 home runs and 0 with 30+, not advocating this, just shows it’s not needed.

        • steve (different one)

          and the 1996 Yankees would probably finish 3rd in the 2009 AL East.

          • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

            The 1996 Yankees would win the 2009 AL East, because Cone, Pettitte, Key, Rogers, Gooden > Kazmir, Garza, Shields, Sonnanstine, Jackson.

        • ceciguante

          good point. i like the idea of teixeira, but power isn’t essential.

          cano will hit 15-20 HR and matsui will hit around 25. jorge, eh, i dunno, shoulder scares me. jeter will hit his 15, damon will do the same. and of course arod. nady can probably hit the 20 abreu might take with him.

          on the list of things to worry about for this team, homers isn’t very high up there.

          • http://www.new.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#/profile.php?id=594331910&ref=name Jamal G.

            Why would you project 25 HR’s from Matsui?

        • CLT_JR

          I was going to write the same thing. Part of the issue is when those guys did hit their HR’s they were in high leverage / “Clutch” situations. Their timing was impeccable!

          • A.D.

            Well nothing we can project or do about timing, if the 2009 Yankees went with the following hr production:

            A-Rod: 35
            Nady: 25
            Damon: 17
            Matsui: 15
            Posada: 15
            Cano: 14
            Miranda: 12
            Jeter: 11
            Other/Bench: 10
            CF: 5

            25 & 15 Might be high for Nady & Posada, but A-Rod will likely hit more than 40, everyone else would be repeating this years totals (or estimate based on past performance if there was an injury).

            We’d have 159 HR, the same number as the 2008 Angels, who won 100 games

            • steve (different one)

              We’d have 159 HR, the same number as the 2008 Angels, who won 100 games

              if the Yankees can swap pitching staffs with the 2008 Angels as well as move from the AL East to the AL West then this might be relevant.

              as constructed, the Yankees need to score more runs than the Angels to win as many games.

              • A.D.

                Obv the 4.00 vs 4.28 ERA makes a difference, pitching for the angles is better, presumably the Yankees pitching could be helped signifigantly this off season with the arms available/ Hughes, Joba, Wang pitching better/not getting hurt.

                In terms of the division, the Angels were 30-16 vs the AL East, which is a .652 winning % would have gotten them the division.

                My point is the power isn’t necessary, they can win without the 20 extra HR someone like Cameron could bring. That said, Cameron could be a good addition, I don’t think he’ll go for a short, 1 year deal

              • Chris C.

                That’s odd………you paid no regard to the Yankees 1996 pitching staff when you placed them in third place for the 2008 season.

                Instead, you just judged them on their inability to hit mounds of homers.

                • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

                  You’re late.

                • steve (different one)

                  That’s odd………you paid no regard to the Yankees 1996 pitching staff when you placed them in third place for the 2008 season.

                  actually, i did.

                  1996 Yankees’ ERA: 4.65 ERA+ 108

                  2008 Red Sox ERA: 4.01 ERA+ 114
                  2008 Rays ERA: 3.82 ERA+ 114
                  2008 Blue Jays ERA: 3.49 ERA+ 124

                  what else do you have for me, wonderboy?

      • steve (different one)

        amen.

        which is why i am praying for Teixeira in pinstripes.

        if there are no other palatable options for CF, then it would be ok to go with BG for a year and hope AJax is ready by 2010.

        but if Cameron falls into their laps, they’d be foolish to opt for Gardner over Cameron.

        ironically, i can distinctly remember having this same argument 1 year ago with one of the authors of this site (can’t remember if it was Ben or Mike).

        this was around the time the Yankees were rumored to have interest in Cameron, right before he signed with Milwaukee. RAB was saying that Cameron was not a very good hitter, and i was trying to point out that for a CFer, he was a pretty good hitter.

        in retrospect, not signing Cameron was a mistake.

        • Chris C.

          “but if Cameron falls into their laps, they’d be foolish to opt for Gardner over Cameron.”

          No they wouldn’t.
          I’ve seen Cameron here in New York enough to know I wasn’t thouroughly impressed.

          I just CANNOT believe there are actually Yankee fans out there who are in favor of sigining yet another guy in his late 30′s. I just can’t believe it. Doesn’t anyone learn anything?

          • steve (different one)

            I’ve seen Cameron here in New York enough to know I wasn’t thouroughly impressed.

            ok. well why didn’t you just say so?

            if i knew that Chris C., random internet poster, was not impressed by Cameron while he played for the Mets, i wouldn’t have even attempted to argue in favor of signing him.

            that type of objective evidence is just too overwhelming to overcome.

            • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

              I just can’t believe it. Doesn’t anyone learn anything?

              No, Chris C, apparently, you’re right. Some people just never learn.

      • ceciguante

        jamal, the italics tag goes like this (without the spaces):

        stuff in italics here this stuff is out of italics.

        not tryin to be a pain in the ass, but i get almost all your posts in italics.

        • ceciguante

          sorry, tag display didn’t work. it rendered it despite the spaces.

  • steve (different one)

    am i missing something, or is $10M a pretty modest salary these days?

    i think the Brewers will pick up the option.

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.

      That’s a 100 percent raise at age 36 coming off a season in which he did hit for power but had a .242 BA and a .331 OBP. It’s not a great deal really, and the Brewers may opt to spend the money elsewhere.

      • steve (different one)

        possibly.

        but who plays CF for them?

        also, i disagree that they wouldn’t do better than a sandwich pick if they picked up the option and traded him.

        the present value of a sandwich pick just isn’t worth all that much.

        don’t you think the Yankees would trade someone like say, Kontos, for Cameron on a 1 year $10M contract?

        isn’t that better than a sandwich pick?

        • A.D.

          Gwynn Jr. could play CF, but I don’t know how they feel about him as a regular, after all they signed cameron.

          Could go with Kapler who had a nice year this season and played the majority of his time in CF

        • Chris C.

          This has been the Yankee thinking over the past 8 years…………..ANYONE’s better than a draft pick.

  • ceciguante

    isn’t getting good defensive and so-so offensive production (cam) far better than getting good defensive and bad offensive production (gardner or melky)?

    besides, what’s so bad about gardner spending another year in AAA? he’s only played one season’s worth at that level, and there’s no reason his offense couldn’t improve there. he could be considered depth and insurance in case of injury. ajax probably won’t make an impact until 2011.

    i like cameron for one year (i wanted him last year, too).

    • Wang Fan

      Can’t send Gardner to AAA to get playing time at CF next year. A-Jax will be getting the playing time in AAA next year. So either Gardner is shifted to left, is the 4th outfielder or starting CF. Not that that is a reason to play him. That he covers more ground in the OF and probably gets on base more, those would be arguments to play him over Cameron. If the Yankees season depends on the increment of power between a 36 year old Cameron and Gardner, it will be another rough season.

      • ceciguante

        fine, so gardner takes his ABs playing LF in AAA. no big loss. what he needs to work on is hitting, not fielding.

        right now, i have little confidence that gardner would get on base more than cameron in 2009. and that “increment of power” between cameron and gardner is actually very significant. cameron had 25 HR and 25 2B last year in 450 ABs. gardner is a big fall off from that, probably .100 in slugging. it’s clear who will produce more in 2009.

        but i do agree with those saying it’s relative: meaning, if you get tex at 1B, you can live with gardner in CF and enjoy the extra defense and speed.

        • Chris C.

          right now, i have little confidence that gardner would get on base more than cameron in 2009.

          Why? Gardner clearly improved this season the more chances he got.

          “cameron had 25 HR…..”

          Congratulations. Aside from 2004, that’s his career high for a season in homers. And he aint getting any younger. And Yankee Stadium, from left to right center, isn’t getting any shorter either.

          “and 25 2B last year in 450 ABs”

          Try 17 sb’s. And he was thrown out 5 times. That’s 77% success rate. Anything below 75% and you’re actually hurting the team when you try to steal.
          Compare that to Gardner’s perfect rate of stealing bases. He’s NEVER been thrown out trying to steal in the majors. He got nailed with a “cs” once, but that is how they score defensive interference.

          “gardner is a big fall off from that, probably .100 in slugging.”

          Why does your leadof hitter need to be a slugger? If Gardner stole over 50 bags a year, and robbed about 30 hitter a year with his speed in center, would you really care that he aint a “slugger”???
          You shouldn’t.

          “if you get tex at 1B, you can live with gardner in CF and enjoy the extra defense and speed.”

          You know, the Yankees had a guy like Gardner in the minors for them in the early 80′s. Put up about the same numbers too. But they had no patience for his hitting and power to come around, so they dealt him away for a 40 year old injured pitcher named Bob Sykes. The fella’s name was Willie McGee.

          • steve (different one)

            Try 17 sb’s.

            2B = “doubles”

            “sb” = stolen bases

            you are dangerous.

            • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

              pwned

            • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

              Furthermore:

              “He’s NEVER been thrown out trying to steal in the majors. He got nailed with a “cs” once, but that is how they score defensive interference.”

              THAT’S SOME HOT BULLSHIT RIGHT THERE, CHRIS.

              ————————————

              October 23, 2008
              http://www.sportsnetwork.com/m.....MEID=22108

              “NY Yankees Bottom 5th
              - Brett Gardner singled to first. Runner on first with none out and Johnny Damon due up.
              - Johnny Damon flied out to left. Runner on first with one out and Derek Jeter due up.
              - Brett Gardner picked off and caught stealing second. Brett Gardner is safe on Nick Swisher`s throwing error. Runner on second with one out and Derek Jeter at the plate.
              - Derek Jeter lined into a double play, short to second to end the inning.

              ————————————

              Caught stealing is how they score defensive interference?

              HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

              Seriously, Champ, take it easy. Why don’t you stop talking for a while, you know, maybe sit the next few plays out.

              • Chris C.

                I was at the game, champ.
                Gardner did get picked off the bag, then darted for second. He got into a rundown, and ran into Swisher who was obstructing the basepath. Gardner was then awarded 2nd.
                He was given a “cs, due to the interference, even though he still got 2nd base.

                I’m not clear on the ruling for what Swisher did, but apparently they gave him an error for it as well.
                You don’t get strapped with a “caught stealing” just by someone making a throwing error, genius.

                Nice cut-and-paste job, though. I’m sure it really helped you to re-live the game you apparently never saw.

                • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

                  “Gardner did get picked off the bag.”

                  That’s all you needed to say.

                  HE WAS PICKED OFF CAUGHT STEALING. The fact that he made it to second because of Nick Swisher’s bonehead play doesn’t excuse the fact that he got picked off. Does this mean Gardner sucks? Of course not. But let’s not pop off at the mouth about Young Mr. Gardner as if he’s God’s gift to stolen bases with erroneous shit like “He’s NEVER been thrown out trying to steal in the majors.” Because that’s not true. You don’t need to lie to try and make be believe that Brett Gardner is fast.

                  He got picked off. Had Nick “The Butcher” Swisher not been on first base, he would have been out. Because of this, while they let him stay on second, they credited him with a caught stealing. BECAUSE HE GOT GOT STEALING.

                • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

                  But whatever. You’re like talking to a brick wall. How can I have a discussion with someone who just assumed that you get credited with a caught stealing BECAUSE of a defensive interference instead of IN SPITE OF IT? What does a thought process like that say about you?

                  I’m done. You win. Whatever it is that you think, all your thoughts are right and I’m the stupid moron. Have fun.

                • Chris C.

                  “But let’s not pop off at the mouth about Young Mr. Gardner as if he’s God’s gift to stolen bases with erroneous shit like “He’s NEVER been thrown out trying to steal in the majors.” Because that’s not true. You don’t need to lie to try and make be believe that Brett Gardner is fast.”

                  Now you’re just being a jackass. The point was, while Gardner got credited with a “cs”, it was a result of straying too far from first, not actually getting thrown out at second by the catcher. It wasn’t the conventional caught stealing, was really the point.

                  The point was to illustrate that Gardner has an excellent stolen base ratio, but I guess you like to take single lines out of threads and nitpick the shit out of them.
                  But I’m apparently just “make believing” that Brett Gardner is fast.

                  And now you’re gonna act like a condescending prick and take your ball and go home, after following my posts for the better part of the day. Boo-hoo and Good riddence.

                • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

                  Oh, okay. So, since you had a point, I should totally disregard the fact that the shit you were saying was utterly nonsensical.

                  Got you. Now it makes sense. I promise from now on to ignore your words, since they get in the way of the feelings and concepts you were clumsily trying to say.

                  Copy.

                  And yes, NOW I’m being condescending. Sorry that it took me all day to get into the condescending boat that you’ve been floating in all week, I couldn’t find my ticket.

                • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

                  For the record, Chris, people probably won’t pick apart every word that you say with a fine tooth comb looking for ways to destroy your argument if you refrain from these two things:

                  1) Saying shit that doesn’t make sense
                  2) Screaming incredulously at everyone for being stupid/foolish because they don’t believe what you believe.

                  You’re just the latest in a long string of guys who have gotten jumped on around here, because they come in high and mighty with shock and awe that Yankee Fans would ever be dumb enough to do Fill-in-the-blank. It’s not that we disagree with you, it’s that you’re so disagreeable while we disagree with you.

                  If you turn down the volume and stop acting like John McEnroe all the time, we’ll treat your little foibles like the defensive interference thing with kid gloves. But when you insult people’s intelligence by feigning shock that they could espouse a certain view, you draw people’s ire.

                  There. I’ve said my piece. In deference to Ben, Mike, and Joe, I promise to not re-antagonize you any further. Hopefully you can do the same.

                  Disagree without histrionics.

                • A.D.

                  The BG fan club manual states for this play the proper response is:

                  Brett Gardner was picked off once and thus “caught stealing” during his major league career, however since he is such an amazing base stealer they didn’t even call him out.

            • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

              All your base are belong to us.

            • Chris C.

              Wow, you’re right.
              I didn’t see that correctly. Probably because there’s little signicance in mentioning that someone got 25 doubles in 450 AB’s.

              • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

                I haven’t seen this much spin since Fox News.

  • Accent Shallow

    I don’t think the Yankees will risk running Damon out in CF every day, or even close to every day, since he’s a pretty big risk to break down if they do, no?

    • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

      Well, I don’t think he’s more likely to injure himself in center than he is in right, but you’ve got a point. Having more guys who can play the outfield competently so that we can give Johnny more days off (or half days off) is a good thing.

    • ceciguante

      i agree. with damon’s leg problems that he speaks of so often, i think it’s clear they don’t want him taking the extra pounding in CF. plus, isn’t his arm more of a liability in CF? damon in LF makes more sense, with an occasional start in CF to get an extra lefty into the lineup.

  • Tony

    I am sick of Yankee fans and their obsession with power. You’re are not going to get much power out of Cameron. On the other hand, Gardner will likely get on base maybe at a 35% more clip. And the speed difference is now great considering Cameron is 36.

    Gardner is simply the better option. The book on Gardner is he always struggles to adjust to a level. We saw that when he first came up and then look at his numbers late in the year. Play Gardner all year and you’ll likely get a .375 obp and 50 steals.

    • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

      But Cameron is good insurance in case he struggles.
      Or in case Nady falls further back to earth.
      Or in case Johnny gets hurt again.

      • Chris C.

        They’e gonna pay Cameron 10 mill to be an insurance policy?
        He certainly wouldn’t come here for that.

    • steve (different one)

      You’re are not going to get much power out of Cameron.

      why not?

      On the other hand, Gardner will likely get on base maybe at a 35% more clip.

      based on what?

      Gardner is simply the better option

      ok, prove it. saying so doesn’t make it true.

      Play Gardner all year and you’ll likely get a .375 obp and 50 steals.

      color me highly skeptical that Gardner will put up a .375 OBP next year.

      if he could, then i agree that Gardner would be an acceptable option.

      i doubt he projects much higher than .340.

      • Slugger27

        im not sure how i feel about mike cameron… i wouldnt be opposed to him on a 1 year deal, but i wouldnt be thrilled with it either… however, u do make some convincing points on him

        u and i agree that tex coming here would change the need for cameron… and we also agree that expecting garnder for 375 is a joke

        not sure i still like the idea all that much, as i think defense should be priority #1, 2, and 3 in CF… but u have made a very compelling argument

      • Chris C.

        “based on what?”

        Based on the fact that it’s the clip he reached base in August and September for the Yankees. Or should we stupidely factor in his July adjustment period?

        “ok, prove it. saying so doesn’t make it true”

        Same goes for saing that Cameron is the better option. So if you’re going to choose, take the younger, more inexpensive option. I mean geez, it’s not like Mike Cameron hass ever been a difference maker anywhere he’s been.

        “color me highly skeptical that Gardner will put up a .375 OBP next year.”

        Okay, so maybe he does a .350 obp next year, and .375 the year after. Heck, he’s already shown he works the count pretty well, so I don’t think that’s out of the realm of possibility.

        • steve (different one)

          Based on the fact that it’s the clip he reached base in August and September for the Yankees.

          Gardner had a .333 OBP in August and September. in September, his OBP was .321. he walked THREE times in August and September combined. so i’m not sure what you are talking about. as usual.

          seriously, find me this hot streak. the numbers don’t back up anything you are saying. as usual.

          also, maybe you should learn to read. the poster said Gardner will get on base 35% MORE than Cameron. which is what i objected to.

          Cameron gets on base at about a .340 clip. i’ll assume he meant that additively, meaning .375.

          again, based on what can we assume Gardner will have a .375 OBP? seriously, answer that.

          Or should we stupidely factor in his July adjustment period?

          no. that’s not what i am talking about.

          i am looking at his entire minor league career. then i am thinking about what that would mean in the majors.

          Brett’s .389 OBP in the minors is NOT going to translate into a .375 OBP in the majors.

          what is Gardner’s projected OBP in the majors based on his entire minor league track record? i don’t know, but i would guess somewhere in the .340 range.

          • Chris C.

            Okay, you’ve made it quite clear you want Mike Cameron, despite the history the Yankees have of RARELY getting an outfielder and having him perform as or better than he did at his last stop. In fact, the last guy to do that was probably Paul O’Neill.

            So when Cameron arrives, and he resembles Rondell White, just remember that’s the guy you wanted and try not to complain every time he strikes out instead of moving runners over………which will be quite often.

          • Chris C.

            .again, based on what can we assume Gardner will have a .375 OBP? seriously, answer that.

            I didn’t “assume” anything. I said it’s a possibility, based on his improvement as a hitter, and the way he works the count. Maybe 2-3 years down the road. But the guy needs the playing time and patience to get there.

    • Reggie C.

      IF the Yanks decide to go with BG , he’s gotta swing more and get the ball in play. C’mon BG!! There should be no reason why you can’t leg out dribblers.

      At his best, BG could be a young Juan Pierre type with a steadier OBP. There’s very good value in that speedy type as long as the Yanks do address the need for sluggers in other spots. I’m all for balance in the lineup, but BG has got to lose the hesitation.

    • Chris C.

      It’s mind-boggling that people don’t understand this.

      • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

        I get the sense that the list of things you feel are “mind-boggling that people don’t understand” is a long ass list.

        • Chris C.

          Very long.

          The fans are still fixated on “buying” a winner, even though the rest of the league knows that doesn’t really work.
          Yankee fans have turned into Knicks fans.

          • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

            Thanks for continually missing the point.

  • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

    I’m down. Cameron is still a good defender, and I’d like to add more of those. He’s like a less-crappy-hitting version of Melky, which is a good thing.

    Think of it this way: Matsui is no longer an outfielder (he’s a DH). Going into 2009, our outfielders are Nady, Damon, Gardner, and Melky. You add Cameron to that list, and you now have three guys capable of playing CF. Sure, none of them can hit, but at least Cameron hits well enough not to be an anchor (more or less), and if Gardner can put it together, then he can take over CF and Cameron can rotate in and out of the corner spots or be a defensive replacement. Being able to go late-game with Gardner, Cameron, and Melky is a good thing.

    And, none of those four represent the type of long term commitment that would block AJax (or whomever else we could potentially have down there.)

    If we can get him on a two-year max deal, count me in.

    • ceciguante

      i completely agree.

      2 years for cameron might be a bit much (maybe 1 + club option?). he is 36, after all. and let’s not all rush to assume that ajax will be “ready” in 2010. in 2009 ajax could regress or get hurt, or, even if he shows enough to make the jump in 2010, the chances that he puts up decent #s for a regular are by no means a given. it’s wiser to plan for an ajax impact in 2011. cameron helps us bridge that gap much better than just rolling the dice on gardner.

      • Chris C.

        Let’s see………Gardner, since coming up in June, improved tremendously, hitting for a .294 ba in August and Sept, while reaching base 35% of the time over that time period. He swiped 13 bags without being thrown out. Played a great outfield, covering tons of ground, and also showed an accurate throwing arm. Clearly, the guy improved the more he saw major league pitching.

        But you’d rather have a guy who was mediocre the last time he played in NY, and is now 36 years old, to bridge the gap to a player you’ve never seen play a single inning of major league ball.

        I just hope the Yankees aren’t thinking this way.

        • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

          I love how, for you, the Cameron issue is totally a Cameron vs. Gardner issue and completely ignores the rest of our outfield situation.

          You’re the best.

        • steve (different one)

          Let’s see………Gardner, since coming up in June, improved tremendously, hitting for a .294 ba in August and Sept, while reaching base 35% of the time over that time period.

          .333 OBP in August and September.

          .333 does not equal .350

          seriously, do you ever check any facts before you spout off?

          • Chris C.

            It is a Cameron vs. Gardner issue!

            IF they get Cameron, you think Damon’s going to the bench?

            • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

              [facepalm]

              • Chris C.

                Who loses PT if Cameron comes here, facepalm?

                • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

                  I dunno, how about Bobby Abreu?

              • Slugger27

                constantly seeing ur name makes me realize just how funny the word “snarky” is

          • Chris C.

            I think you get the point.
            If you also feel the need to nitpick, go right ahead.

            • steve (different one)

              i’m not nit-picking.

              a .350 OBP is good.
              a .333 OBP isn’t good.

              you distorted the facts to back your point.

              and yet i’m the asshole for pointing it out….

    • Slugger27

      out of curiosity… whats ur plan with cameron? would u make him the everyday starter… only start him against lefties?

      it seems he hits lefties much better than righties.. and even if for only 1 year, 10 mill does seem steep for a platoon player

      if he can manage a .330 obp with 20+ homers playing everyday, then i totally agree he would be worth it… question is, playing everyday means hitting righties… so can he?

      • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

        Meh, my plan is probably to split up CF pretty evenly between Cameron and Gardner, with each of them sliding over to RF and LF occasionally to spell Nady and Damon, respectively. I’d like to go Damon-Cameron-Nady most of the time with Cameron-Gardner-Nady as my most common #2 outfield consideration, with Damon either having a day’s off to rest or in the DH slot (since Matsui will need rest as well.)

        Between the four slots of LF-CF-RF-DH, I plan on giving the lions share to Nady and Cameron and then slot in Gardner, Damon, and Matsui after that. Damon and Matsui get the least to keep them fresh and injury free, Gardner gets more as his production improves. We reassess as we go and bench anyone who’s not producing.

  • Mark B

    Living here in Chicago and following the Brewers, it looks like they will exercise the option as they don’t have anyone in their system to play there (RF Corey Hart would move there if he left as they apparently don’t see Tony Gwynn as an every-day player), though the the Hart to CF move went away last summer when they traded away Matt LaPorta in the CC trade.

    As for whether Cameron would make a good fit with the Yankees, I don’t see how a 36 year-old outfielder with a terrible on-base percentage would make a good addition. Last time I checked, the Yankees needed some youth and speed. Cameron is not young, nor is he extremely fleet of foot on the basebaths (17 SB in ’08) – something Brett Gardner offers.

    I say use the money to address our other more glaring priorities – like targeting a good firstbaseman and starting pitcher. Leave the CF job for Gardner.

    • steve (different one)

      I say use the money to address our other more glaring priorities – like targeting a good firstbaseman and starting pitcher. Leave the CF job for Gardner.

      but this is a strawman argument where you are assuming the yankees will bump into some sort of payroll ceiling this offseason where signing Cameron prevents them from doing something else.

      the ONLY way i could see that happening would be if the Yankees ALSO sign Sabathia, Teixeira, Burnett, and Pettitte/Moose.

      if they do that, then shit, i’ll be fine with Gardner too.

      • Mark B

        Call it a strawman argument, I call it the harsh economic reality we all must face right now. The Yankees are not a government-like entity that can continue to outspend all of baseball with an enormous payroll year-in-and-year-out.

        In any other year than ’09, I would think the Yanks would take a flier on Cameron (even if he’s a platoon with Gardner) because they have the cash to. I hope I am wrong, but I don’t think the current economic times we are in will allow for it and the the 2009 Yankees will open with a lower payroll as a result.

        • steve (different one)

          The Yankees are not a government-like entity that can continue to outspend all of baseball with an enormous payroll year-in-and-year-out.

          isn’t that exactly what they are?

          • A.D.

            No, rumors they want to trim the payroll to 180M & that Cash wouldn’t have been able to sign pettite if they signed Santana, due to cash would show this is not the case.

            • steve (different one)

              $180M still implies they will “outspend all of baseball with an enormous payroll year-in-and-year-out.”

              • A.D.

                but it is showing a finite number, and I doubt payroll will get in the way, especially for a mid season trade to get it done. I don’t even have a problem with Cameron, just figure he’s not signing a 1 year deal… he’s going to be looking for multi years, with no team options

                • steve (different one)

                  he’s going to be looking for multi years, with no team options

                  perhaps. i guess nothing would really surprise me.

                  i guess most of this argument is predicated on the assumption that he would not require a long term deal.

                • Slugger27

                  him requiring anything long term would bring an abrupt end to this entire discussion

            • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

              A.D., allow me to restate your comment with some minor edits and emphasis:

              “No, rumors they want to trim the payroll to 180M & that Cash might have chosen not to sign pettite if they signed Santana, due to cash would show this is not the case a consideration.”

              Yes, I agree that Cashman wants to keep the payroll under $180M. But in no way is that a hard-and-fast ceiling. If the payroll is $176M, great. If it’s $192M, sure, okay. It’s not what we were shooting for, but heads aren’t going to roll.

              Remember, people, Damon, Matsui, and Molina’s collective $28M is also coming off the books after 2009.

              • A.D.

                hey, i said rumors, I didn’t pretend this was facts

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike A.

      There’s rumblings that they’ll move Weeks to CF.

      • Mark B

        Those rumblngs are pure bunk – and have been described as much by Milwaukee Journal / Brewer Beat Writer Tom Hardricourt. Weeks is either at 2b for them next year, is traded or is placed on the bench. If he showed he can hit, it might make sense, though Brewres GM Doug Melvin has been against it in teh past and can;t see why he would ask a guy who still ahsn’t shown he can hit major-league pitching to learn a new position.

        • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

          Yes, but Weeks is utterly brutal at 2B. Weeks reminds me of the Upton brothers a bit: the bat is nice and he’s really athletic, but eventually the team has to accept the fact that his particular athletic strengths and weaknesses probably profile much better in the outfield than in the infield.

          Luckily, we don’t have that problem with any of our players…

          *cough*

  • CB

    Cameron was the best value of any free agent signed last winter.

    He was close to 4 wins better than a league average CF when you take into account his bat (one of only 8 CF last year to put up an OPS of greater than .800) and his glove.

    A 4 win player on the open market is worth roughly $15-20M// yr. Cameron made $7M last year.

    He could be signed for a short term deal – 2 yrs at 10-11M/yr. Even if he’s markedly worse next year at age 36 and falls to a +2-3 win CF he’d still be an excellent value.

    He’d be a very good bridge to Austin Jackson.

    • CB

      Sorry here’s the link regarding Cameron’s value:

      http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs.....nt-bargain

      • KW

        Agreed, would like to see him come to the yanks. Although it’s foreseeable that the brewers dont pick up his option and move weeks to CF and make a big offer to CC

  • Yankee1010

    How about Sherman (in his Hardball blog) and King both screwing up the free agent compensation rules? How are they employed?

    Honestly, are there any qualifications to work at the Post?

    • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

      Yeah, Jamal cracked on that last thread. Honestly, it’s shameful. The people of city would probably be better served if the New York tabloids dumped all their sportswriters into a huge pot of boiling oil and replaced them all with the journalism students at Columbia, NYU, Fordham, and Pace.

  • Mulls

    What about Rowand is there any way we can swing a deal for Rowand ? maybe a cain and rowand blockbuster , then sign texiera. I also believe this team is lacking in the power department, im not counting on posada to give us any power and im so over counting on arod for anything. maybe sign dunn as a dh or wait a year and sign vlad as a full time dh.

    • steve (different one)

      cain, no.

      but Rowand is probably very available.

      of course, there is a reason for that.

      • radnom

        Maybe we can trade for Rowand and then resign Abreu and have Rowand teach a course in how to not be afraid of the OF wall.

        • steve (different one)

          or maybe Abreu can teach Rowand the merits of being afraid of the wall…

          • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

            Maybe we can pay an evil scientist some money to somehow comingle the brains of Abreu and Rowand into one super-defending, super-high OBP, walk-drawing machine.

            With a gritbeard.

    • http://www.new.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#/profile.php?id=594331910&ref=name Jamal G.

      im so over counting on arod for anything.

      Yeah, who could ever rely on Alex Rodriguez to supply power when he is the only player in MLB history to record eleven straight seasons of at least 35 HR’s and 100 RBI.

      • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike A.

        You’re dumb Jamal. Don’t you know that every one of 35 homers and 100 RBIs over that 11 years span came with his team either leading or trailing by 4 of more runs?

  • dan

    If they sign Teixeira then they can afford to have Gardner’s sub-optimal offense playing center and batting 9th. Signing another outfielder just creates more of a log-jam of mediocre-solid players than we need. Then Matsui has to DH all the time, and then Posada has to either catch or play first. And he can only play first if they don’t sign Tex. Unless they trade an outfielder for a pitcher, or something like that, I don’t want to add Cameron to the mix.

    • Count Zero

      I’ll give you 2:1 odds right now, Matsui plays less than 100 innings in the OF in 2009 — not because someone forced him out of the OF, but because his knees can’t handle it. It’s not going to happen.

      • radnom

        I’d take those odds.
        $50, lets bet on it.

        • radnom

          HA, whoops!

          I didn’t see the words “in the OF”

          I still like those odds, but I wouldn’t drop a fiddy on it.

      • A.D.

        I don’t think the Yankees really plan on playing Matsui in the outfield at all

      • SWB

        Thats only eleven games, I would take that bet

        • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

          I think you’d still lose.

          The only way Hideki sees the outfield is after a late-game emergency double-switch in a marathon 16-inning nailbiter.

  • A.D.

    All BG does is get game winning hits, they need to start him so he can get that walk-off infield single!!!

  • jim

    im tired of signing old players. The yankees have to get younger, not older.

    • steve (different one)

      i’ll setter for getting “better”.

      despite their ages, it is HIGHLY likely that Cameron will be a better player than Gardner next year.

      • Mark B

        Let’s face it, you just don’t have the patience to watch a young player develop. You can’t compare a 35 year-old 13-year veteran to a 25-year old rookie with only 43 games under his belt – that is unfair to Gardner, as you can always say a veteran will be a better player than an untested rookie (unless your name is Evan Longoria, who only comes around once a decade or so).

        I say give Gardner a chance to come into spring training as the starter and see what he can do. If we can sign a veteran to back him up and possibly platoon, great – though doubt it will be Cameron. I said as much before – he will be staying with the Brew Crew unless they need to shed payroll to make an all-out run for CC.

        We have much bigger holes to fill and an limited amount of dollars to spend – esp if we go all in to the CC and Tex sweepstakes.

        • Slugger27

          “limited amount of dollars to spend”

          are u new to baseball?

          besides, its just a 1 year commitment…. they wouldnt be halting any development

          all that said, im not crazy about cameron… i can however see why some ppl would like to see it

          • Mark B

            No I am not new to baseball, nor am I employed by the sport.

            I am in the wealth management busienss and know full well that the enormous drop in the markets that has taken an incredible hit to my business and my own portfolio, not to mention the rising unemployment numbers and lower (if not negative) growth we are experiencing now and for the foreseeable future will have an adverse affect on baseball, if not many of our own budgets.

            While the new stadium may help in the beginning, overall attendance, merchandise sales and ad revenues for the Yankees and all of MLB will be down next year.

            • Slugger27

              no argument… but u said limited amount to spend… if that limit is 75M, then sure, but they have 80M in expiring contracts leaving AND a brand new stadium

              the economy will hurt several teams financially, but i cant see the yankees being one of them, nor do i see it hindering any free agent signings

        • steve (different one)

          Let’s face it, you just don’t have the patience to watch a young player develop.

          patently false.

          i have spent more hours than i am willing to admit on this site arguing the value of patience with Hughes, Cano, Joba, etc.

          here is the difference: Gardner’s ceiling just isn’t very high.

          if everything breaks right, and he can outperform every realistic projection, he *might* become an average everyday CFer.

          be honest, what do you think Gardner’s ceiling is? Dave Roberts?

          that’s a nice player, but it’s not a guy i’m going to hand a starting job to while he learns on the job. he can be the 4th OFer, which would probably get him quite a bit of ABs next year.

          We have much bigger holes to fill and an limited amount of dollars to spend – esp if we go all in to the CC and Tex sweepstakes.

          and i have already said that if they sign CC and Tex, then it changes the equation.

          • Chris C.

            “i have spent more hours than i am willing to admit on this site arguing the value of patience with Hughes, Cano, Joba, etc.

            here is the difference: Gardner’s ceiling just isn’t very high.”

            Oh, so now you’re a scout, huh? So what’s his ceiling, based on what you’ve seen…………over what, three sporadic months?
            Because from what I’ve seen, this kid contains some things the Yankees are sorely lacking……such as defense, and footspeed.
            Does everyone have to hyped to you as a 5 tool player?

            “if everything breaks right, and he can outperform every realistic projection, he *might* become an average everyday CFer.”

            What projections? Where are these projections, and who’s making them? Didn’t the Yankees draft this kid in the third round? I’d say he was projected pretty highly then.

            “be honest, what do you think Gardner’s ceiling is? Dave Roberts?

            that’s a nice player, but it’s not a guy i’m going to hand a starting job to while he learns on the job. he can be the 4th OFer, which would probably get him quite a bit of ABs next year”

            I love the way you ask a question, then answer it yourself. And DAVE ROBERTS, no less. Nobody said he shouldn’t compete for the job. But if you ink Cameron, they’ll be NO competition for the job.

            • keith

              you’re delusional

            • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones
            • steve (different one)

              What projections? Where are these projections, and who’s making them?

              PECOTA
              MARCEL
              ZIPS
              CHONE
              etc.

              they are being done by the smartest baseball minds around. Nate Silver, Tom Tango, MGL, etc.

              you should actually try reading about baseball. you might learn something.

              • steve (different one)

                I love the way you ask a question, then answer it yourself. And DAVE ROBERTS, no less.

                i answered it b/c i though Roberts was a pretty good and pretty generous comp for Gardner.

                they have very similar numbers in the minors and very similar skillsets.

                if Gardner became Roberts, the Yankees would probably be pretty happy.

                honestly, what type of ceiling do you guys see for this guy?

  • JeffG

    Curtis Granderson

    Trade: Cano and Melky with Kennedy and Aceves

    Replace Cano with Orlando Hudson

    CF solved for the next ten years.

    • steve (different one)

      Curtis Granderson

      Trade: Cano and Melky with Kennedy and Aceves

      ok, i just called Detroit and floated this.

      they said no.

      • A.D.

        I have a suspicion Granderson is not available

      • radnom

        I can see why Detroit would not want to do that, but I’m not sure I would do that if I were the Yankees either.

        The best hypothetical trade proposals don’t make sense for EITHER team.

        • Chris C.

          Yikes! Here’s Cashman’s history dealing with Dombrowski:

          Lowell, Lilly, Sheffield, and Farnsworth for Yarnal, Weaver, Humberto Sanchez, Whelan, and IROD.

          If Dombrowski calls, hide under the desk, Brian!

          • steve (different one)

            i love how you add in Farnsworth for Pudge as if that was a bad trade.

            also, Lilly went to Billy Beane.

            • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

              And 25 year old Humberto Sanchez + 23 year old Anthony Claggett + 24 year old Kevin Whelan >>>>>>>>>>> 39 year old Gary Sheffield

      • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

        Steve, if you actually did call Detroit and give them a trade offer that started with them giving us Curtis Granderson, I’m sure Dave Dombrowski has already filed for a restraining order against you.

        • steve (different one)

          what’s another one?

          • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

            Huh? You lost me.

            I was agreeing with you. Detroit isn’t trading Granderson to anyone.

            • steve (different one)

              as in “what’s one more restraining order?”‘

              lame attempt at humor.

              • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

                Oh, okay. Got you.

                You love the ladies. Perhaps a bit too much.

    • http://www.new.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#/profile.php?id=594331910&ref=name Jamal G.
    • T-Dizzle

      They should trade hughes and cano for ichiro and perhaps sign him to extension

      • A.D.

        Aside with the fact I would never agree with this trade, Ichiro is signed to 2012….how much longer would you sign him for?

  • T-Dizzle

    they should trade IPK and melky and melancone for torre hunter

    • radnom

      mmmm

      melon cone

      • Slugger27

        homer simpson?

        • radnom

          That was the voice in my head as I typed that out, very good.

          • Slugger27

            there is never a bad time for a homer simpson reference

          • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

            I dunno, that Torre Hunter guy sounds pretty intriguing. Not only is he a great defensive centerfielder, it’ll also give us the advantage of having an extra coach on the field.

            That’s a win-win.

            • Slugger27

              lmao… i love how we have taken someones humble opinion and poor spelling and turned it into a complete mockery that contains a homer simpson joke

              • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

                Urge to kill… rising…

              • http://www.new.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#/profile.php?id=594331910&ref=name Jamal G.

                With knowledge comes the insatiable urge to mock those who are more ignorant than you.

                • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

                  The internet is a communication tool used the world over where people can come together to bitch about movies and share pornography with one another.

    • http://www.new.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#/profile.php?id=594331910&ref=name Jamal G.
    • ceciguante

      cashman should’ve signed torii hunter (or cameron) when he had the chance last offseason, for nothin but $$$.

      but of course, that would’ve required some foresight.

      • Mike Pop

        Tori Hunter got 90 mill pssh forget about it

      • JeffG

        Cahman should have signed Beltran.

      • steve (different one)

        little difference between Cameron and Hunter, no?

        Cameron would have been a good signing.

        Hunter? i doubt it.

  • Baseballnation

    Gardner is probably the superior defender at this point, or at least Cameron’s equal, and figures to hit for slightly better avg, while possibly being a 30-40 SB threat…something Damon, their only other speed threat doesn’t even come close too.

    I see it like this: the yankees have to A) Get younger. B) Get more power. C)Get more speed. Cameron has pretty good hr’ power, and his isop stood at a great standing at .234 so he fits 1 out of 3 so to speak. But Gardner fits 2 out of 3. Coupled in with his fraction of what Cameron would make, not only do I think Gardner would be a better option but it would allow the yankees to throw some extra money in other places.

    • Slugger27

      if they get tex, it should severely limit the need for “B”… therefore, it would be smarter sticking with gardner

      in my opinion… tex is the X factor of this entire debate

      • Mike Pop

        Tex should be the must sign of this free agent class regardless of anything… Cameron would be nice also
        Damon-lf
        Jeter-ss
        Tex-1b
        Arod-3b
        Bobby-dh
        Nady-rf
        Jorge-C
        Cano-2b
        Melky or BG-CF

        MAtsui could Dh every now and than.. But that lineup to me is great and even better if Cameron is substituted for BG or Melk.. That lineup has no holes if the yanks play like they should

        • Mike Pop

          Yes I want Bobby back unless we get Manny to hit 3rd as DH and move Tex to 5th.. If we lose Bobby and dont sign one of Tex or Manny we could be in alot of trouble

        • Slugger27

          the problem is… signing tex would limit our need for cameron, as his best attribute over gardner is his power… gardner has most everything else ((youth, speed, probably defense, and being much cheaper))

          with the power need diminished by signing tex… suddenly cameron doesnt look as valuable

          however, if they passed on cameron and gardner winds up being 2009 melky… then they look like idiots

        • ceciguante

          we’re not getting manny and tex.

          i like ur lineup, but i’d sub in matsui for bobby. matsui is not getting paid to be a pinch hitter, and bobby would not want to re-sign as a dh. their hitting is actually very similar, and they’re the same age. we should save the money from bobby, use it on CC and Tex, and take the draft picks.

    • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

      Still, you’re betting here that a 25 year old kid with 127 big league AB’s to the tune of .228/.283/.299 is ready to be the everyday centerfielder for us. I’m with you that I think Gardner has the potential to keep the job, but potential and surety are far from each other.

      Cameron to me represents an excellent fallback option, either for Gardner or for struggles/injuries to Damon and Nady. Assuming Abreu’s not back, if we don’t sign Cameron (or add another decent OF from somewhere), we go into 2009 with only two legitimate big league outfielders, neither of whom are capable of playing CF, and a kid who’s nothing more than a maybe. That’s a bit scary.

      • Slugger27

        tommie do u see cameron as an everyday starter? i mentioned this earlier but i think hes got some big lefty/righty splits at the plate ((im too lazy to do the research))

        if my memory serves me right though, i think most of his power and hr’s came off lefties… do u think he could manage a 330 obp with 20-25 hrs hitting everyday against righties

        if he cant, even if for only 1 year, 10M is a pretty expensive platoon

        • Rick in Boston

          Cameron’s splits in ’08:
          vs. Righties – .231/.309/.452 in 334 AB’s
          vs. Lefties – .282/.397/.555 in 110 AB’s

          He struck out in 29% of AB’s vs. lefties and 33% against righties
          And for those who really dfislike A-Rod in RISP situations, be forewarned: Cameron hit .245 in those situations (A-Rod was .271).

          • Slugger27

            ahh my memory was correct… his stats against righties are melky-like and his strikeout rate is pretty scary… to me, hes lookin more and more like a platoon player

            334 at bats is a pretty big sample size… i know gardner has his question marks and his own strikeout problems… but those stats look like a richie sexson in disguise…. the difference being cameron plays good defense at a less offense-demanding position

            but still…. scary numbers

        • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

          Sorry, took me a while to respond. It’s above.

  • radnom

    T-Dizzle-Dizzle’s Trade Proposals Tally

    Give up:

    Hughes, Cano, Melon-cone, IPK, Melky

    Get:

    Ichiro, Torre Hunter

    • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

      Could we sweeten the pot with the Angels and throw in Hummer, Romine, and Higashoika and get Gary Matthews Jr. as well?

      • A.D.

        Does this mean we get to keep Melancon? ‘Cause i’m all for trading this Melon-cone guy

      • Baseballnation

        You already want to give away Romine? Do you really think the Angels will let Tex leave and hand away GM to us?

        • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

          You do know I’m not even remotely being serious, don’t you?

          For god sakes, man, look at my name. If you can’t tell that a trade proposal involving the concept of “sweetening the pot to get Gary Matthews Jr.” isn’t snarky and irrelevant, than I don’t know what yo tell you.

          • A.D.

            i hope since he said “Hand Away” for those 3 means he is kidding…but otherwise we could take on salary of others angels players to get GM, maybe Yanks pay for a Lackey extension to stay in Anaheim.

            • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

              Oh, sweet jesus, I’ve opened a can of worms.

              EVERYONE: Trading for Gary Matthews was a joke. He sucks balls. We don’t want him. Let’s all pretend I never brought his name up in jest, and move forward amicably.

    • Andy In Sunny Daytona

      His favorite movie is “Torre! Torre! Torre!”. The movie covers both sides of the story of the split between the Steinbrenners and St. Joe.

  • Steve S

    I dont know, you cant say that gardner would be better at this point but Im almost willing to roll the dice and find out. Cameron will be the better hitter but looking at what he did last year (and remembering his time with the Muts), on a month by month breakdown, he seems like the complete opposite of what the yankees need. he looks like he is an extremely streaky guy. had it not been for August, he would have possibly been worse than Melky. he hit almost half of his homeruns in one month. Id rather have a guy who brings a little bit more consistency especially when all Im really getting back is 20-25 homeruns. You might as well resign Giambi if were that desperate for some pop. Gardner’s minor league numbers show that he takes pitches and can steal some bases. Even if he takes pitches and can use his speed to get on base, he might be a more consistent offensive piece of the puzzle. And I know it may only be a one year I would rather not congest things, he isnt Tony Womack, but he is borderline Tony Womack.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DK799W6AhBk&feature=user Joey H.

    “Not so good at hitting” Well certainly much better than Melky at getting on base.

  • Mike Pop

    Mike Cameron would be a good addition for no more than 7.5 million

  • Old Ranger

    Good thinking Chris…
    Getting younger, athletic, people on the team is what is needed. Need we remind people of teams such as Clev., Balt., and the bad Yankees of bygone years, hitting HRs to win games…until they played in the play-offs. Power hitters have trouble with very good pitching whereas, punch and judy hitters fare much better. A team with one guy like Brett can do a lot of damage (one doesn’t want more than 1-2 of this type). Johnny use to be this kind of player; punch the ball get on base and disrupt the other pitcher/team. I, along with a couple others said, that Brett always starts out slow…let’s see what he can do, give him the same chance they gave Melky…he will do the job! 27/09.

  • Rich

    One thing to remember about Cameron: If by chance he’s caught again using an unapproved substance his suspension will be a LOT longer than the 25 games he was sat down for this year. Keep that in mind.

  • keith

    some of your ideas are entering into “lohud comment section” territory. holy shit

  • Joseph M

    A couple of points, Mike A, Gardner is going to be 26 years old next season, if he’s not ready for the big leagues by now he’s never going to be.

    The last thing the Yankees need right now is a north of 35 years of age position player. The club has got to get away from these types of solutions, they don’t work. Go with a Gardner, Melky platoon and let’s see what happens.

    Try to get CC and another solid arm in here and think about signing Manny for DH only.

    • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

      “The club has got to get away from these types of solutions, they don’t work.”

      Classic case of not stepping back and looking at the big picture. Having lots of old guys is a bad thing. Having some isn’t a bad thing. Several of our old, defensively challenged players have either left or will be leaving soon.

      Signing Cameron is not commensurate with previous mistakes. Different player, different situation.

      • Old Ranger

        Still a bad idea…
        Putting him in CF, Johnny in LF and X=man in RF would be a pitchers nightmare. If one thinks Johnny, Melky and Bobby was bad I shudder to see how bad that would be…Cameron is not as good as Brett, by a wide margin.
        We don’t need; 7 starting players (position) 30 or over (not counting Bobby)…3-4 over 35. Let Brett Gardner play, just as we did with Melky…conversely, if we can obtain someone like Crawford, it goes without saying. 27/09.

        • Steve

          “Against LHP:

          .282/.397/.555/7 HR/16 RB”

          That’s a .951 OPS ladies and gents. Its a good move.

          As I stated earlier I see him in a platoon with Gardner with Gardner getting the bulk of the playing time (assuming Brett produces). Cameron’s overall line doesn’t look great, but if you just use him against left handers your overall production in CF between him and Gardner should be good.

          Also, it doesn’t have to be a straight R/L platoon, you could let Cammy DH some days and let him start vs finesse Righties on occasion. Gardner will also play LF on the days Damon needs some rest, which is usually about once a week. So Gardner will play 5 days a week and Cammy could play 3. Neither will get rusty if you do that. At Cammy’s age, he probably can’t play everyday and stay effective, anyway. The regular time off would be good for him.

          He also protects you with a decent veteran option just in case Gardner turns into Melky on us.

      • Joseph M

        If the season started tomorrow the line up would feature AROD (34 in July), Jeter (35 in June), Matsui (35 in June), Damon (35 in November of 08), Posada (38 in August). Which one of these guys do you see not being on the team next year? To that you want to add the 36 year old Cameron to make it 6 out of the 9 hitter at or over 34. For all we know the Yankees might bring back Mussina, Andy and of course there is Mo. We have more than enough older players we can’t add another one.

        • Old Ranger

          First of all I want to believe that your post was meant for Steve…

          If it wasn’t, you may want to read my post again…I was very much against Cameron, because it would make the team older and I thought Brett is the better all around player. 27/09.

          • Old Ranger

            Sorry…
            Didn’t follow the line-up very well…as ya’ll say, my bad. 27/09.

  • http://notsofast.... godfather

    cameron doesn’t cover the ground anymore…saw that this year

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