Oct
08

Open Thread: Manny or Tex?

By

While it’s nice and trendy to blame the pitching for the Yanks’ woes this year, the fact is they did score nearly 200 fewer runs this year than last (179 to be exact). We’re used to powerhouse offenses that feature multiple 100 RBI guys (they had two this year) and about five or six 20 homerun hitters (three), but it just wasn’t meant to be this year. Injuries, subpar years and general suckiness were the main culprits.

While it’s clear the Yanks will look to make a splash on the pitching front, their offense will need a pretty significant upgrade, especially if Jason Giambi and Bobby Abreu are allowed to take their stout OPS+’s elsewhere as free agents.

Enter: Mark Teixeria. And … uh … Manny Ramirez.

Both players offer what the Yanks need – the ability to hit for average, hit for power, and get on base like it’s going out of style – but best of all they’ll come at the cost of just money, no other players need to get involved. Manny’s Hall of Fame caliber resume leaves no question that he’ll be an impact player, and Teixeira’s just entering what should be the best years of his career. Neither guy will come cheaply, and even the Yanks have their financial limits, so it’ll come down to one or the other.

So what would you prefer: Tex on a 7 yrs, $154M deal, or Manny at 4/88? Your call, play nice.

Categories : Open Thread
  • greg

    Tex

  • colin

    Easy. Tex

  • Anthony

    Quality defensive first baseman vs another subpar outfielder

    Yeah. Definitely Tex

  • Adam

    using your parameters, you would actually get teixeira at a lower AAV than manny. additionally, at the end of teixeira’s 7th year, he would as old as manny would be to start this deal. not to mention texiera’s superior defense and attitude.

    i think a more difficult choice would be manny at 3 years and $60 million, or teixeira at 8 years and $200 million? that, i am not so sure.

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Joseph P.

      154/7 = 22
      88/4 = 22

      • Adam

        joe: clearly your calculation doesn’t take into account the time value of money, inflation, or the falling dollar.

        fine, you got me, i typed the wrong number into my calculator.

        • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

          pwned

      • Rob

        I don’t see anyone giving this kind of money to a 1B. That’s stoopid money territory and I think teams are smarter now. And history (Helton, Giiambi) says that kind of money will end up being wasted, especially over that many years.

        If that is indeed the cost on Tex, I say Manny. Or offer Tex 100 million over 4 years. But even that seems too high for a player of his caliber. He’s been very good, but he not an MVP-caliber slugger and that’s what that money would require.

        I think Manny though can be had for 75/3. I don’t see anyone else paying that AAV.

        • Michael

          Rob,

          Did you really just spell stupid “stoopid”? Wow!

  • Manimal

    7 years of tex> 4 years of manny

    And tex plays hard 24/7 and is a gold glove caliber 1st baseman. Manny being manny and decent defense just isn’t worth 88 million.

    The best possible situation is CC, Lowe, and Tex. Our rotation will be absolutely filthy(on paper, we all know how that stuff doesn’t matter) and Tex will replace Abreu’s bat in the lineup and we will have a 100000x better defender at 1st.

  • J.R.

    The real question is whether or not Manny would cut his hair.

    Tex, easy.

    • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

      THE DREADLOCKS, THE EVIL, EVIL, NEGRO DREADLOCKS!!!!

      WEE WILLIE KEELER!!!!!!!!!

  • chuck

    If they could find a way to trade Matsui or Damon, I will take them both.

  • Steve

    To answer your question, Tex.

    But the Yanks have been extremely quiet on the Tex front. I suspect they’ll be looking elsewhere for a 1B, knowing Boras clients tend to go to January before signing.

    Tex also has a rep for being a bit of a diva, an A-Rod type who piles up stats but doesn’t come through in big spots. His clutch/leverage numbers this year don’t reflect that either this year or last year.

    http://www.baseball-reference......;year=2008

    • J.R.

      Look at his post season production. He was amazing against the Sox. I think they make the full court press on Tex.

      • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike A.

        Yeah, but A-Rod was awesome in the playoffs for Seattle before he got to the Yanks.

        • Steve

          Not sure if you’re being serious or not, I know you’re a big Alex supporter.

          I’d support a Tex signing, he’s about as perfect a Baseball player as they come. I cant read a guys mind to see how he will react in NY, I can only make rational Baseball decisions.

          • JD

            Arod was great in the postseason (even for the Yankees) until game 4 of the 2004 ALCS.

            Anyway, I would sign Tex because..
            1- Plays a position of major need for us.
            2- switch hitter

      • Steve

        As I said, I think its a bad rep. Guys like him are SO talented, people expect them to be Superman. I hope they go after him as well, but if they can swing a trade for an Adrian Gonzalez or someone similar, I’d be happy as well.

        It wont require a “full court press” as you said, however. You dont have to shmooze him the way you would other free agents. He’s been described as “The Ultimate Boras client”, meaning he’ll go wherever he gets the biggest check.

        • J.R.

          True, but the Yankees full court press is usually done with the checkbook anyways.

  • r.w.g.

    sign both and trade someone else.

    • J.R.

      The trade would have to be either Damon or Matsui. That way you can clear the DH spot for Posada at the begining of the season.

    • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

      Cosign.

  • Accent Shallow

    Teixiera is a good candidate for a long term deal because he does two things that other first basemen don’t do well: play defense and run the bases, making him more likely to age well.

    As for Manny, if you’d ask me after last year, I’d say he was entering his decline phase and would soon be done. Now, I’m not so sure.

    • J.R.

      His NL numbers are against perhaps the weakest division in Baseball. He is also in a contract year. I’d be very hesitant in signing Manny. Afterall he hated the media attention in Boston, New York will only be worse.

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Joseph P.

      “As for Manny, if you’d ask me after last year, I’d say he was entering his decline phase and would soon be done. Now, I’m not so sure.”

      I actually made a bet with Mike before the season started. I said Manny would have more XBH this year, he said Ortiz.

      We had another bet, too. I thought Pettitte would have a lower ERA than Dice-K (he did in 07). So we pushed. Boo.

      • http://www.new.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#/profile.php?id=594331910&ref=name Jamal G.

        Dude, you two are fans of sabermetrics, why didn’t you bet on FIP? Andy Pettitte beat out Daisuke Matsuzaka 3.71 to 4.03.

        • Stephen

          Yea, Pettitte was unlucky and Dice-K was very lucky and had unsustainable peripherals

  • NYFan50

    Tex makes more sense.

    Where does Manny play? He’d be a nightmare playing the OF for the next 4 years. To DH in 09 the team would have to trade Matsui this offseason. And who knows what will happen with Posada? He might have to DH quite a bit over the rest of his contract.

    If you’re going to trade Matsui and take the gamble with Posada being able to catch significantly over the rest of his contract you might as well just sign both of them. A Damon/Jeter/Manny/A-Rod/Tex/Posada/Nady/Cano/Gardner lineup would/should be devastating.

  • http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/02_01/burressDM0402_468x305.jpg Nady Nation

    I’ve gotta go with Teix. I think it would be a lot harder of a debate if it were 2-3 years for Manny instead of 4. As amazing as Manny is, the Yanks really need to get younger and steer away from the aging superstars with minimal fielding capabilities. Teix will be younger at the end of his 7 year deal than Manny will be at the start of his 4 year deal. Not to mention Teix is a switch hitter who brings gold glove first base to the equation, something the Yanks could really use. It’s insanely tempting to have Manny and A-Rod hitting back to back, but 4 years is just too much for my liking. And it’s not like Teix hitting in front of A-Rod is some sort of lame consolation prize.

    • http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/02_01/burressDM0402_468x305.jpg Nady Nation

      Adam – my bad. I didn’t read the other posts before I made mine. Didn’t mean to cop your whole Teix end of contract < Manny beginning contract (age) argument. I totally agree with you though, as you can see

  • Art Vandelay

    Tex should be the Yanks #1 priority this offseason, before any pitching concerns are addressed. If the “build pitching from within and fill position player roles via free agency” strategy is going to work, you need to, um, sign high-profile free agents in the prime of their careers that fill a glaring need on your team.

    • http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/02_01/burressDM0402_468x305.jpg Nady Nation

      More important question – are you focusing more on the imports or exports these days?

      • Art Vandelay

        I’ve actually been working on the addition to the Guggenheim.

        • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

          Really didn’t take that long, either…

  • yankeefan91 (sign manny)

    both

    • J.R.

      If you sign both you have a nightmare of a logjam if there is no trade made.

      And the idea of Manny playing left and Damon in center is terrifying. One doesnt give a shit and the other can’t throw for shit.

  • Chofo

    Tex for, no Manny, even if the fails to sign the former.

    Lear the lesson: even the Red Sox, the team that enjoyed Manny’s production begged other teams to take him off their hands and PAID to do so. Why do you think it’s going to be different in NY? If you remember the headache that Sheff was, well, Manny is going to be worse and older.

    • deadrody

      Yeah, and proceeded to win two World Series titles along the way. Oh, the horror.

  • Matthew Cohen

    No way on Manny. Ageing. Poor defender. Nutty. We need the LF/DH spots open for the other ageing Yanks (Matsui/Damon and eventually Jeter and Posada)

    Tex would be great unless the bidding gets really crazy (more than 7 years and $25k per year). Great defense. Reasonably young. What’s not to like?

    • http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/02_01/burressDM0402_468x305.jpg Nady Nation

      Nothing not to like – especially that contract you’re suggesting! Sign me up for 7 years, $175 G’s

      • Stephen

        He’s a compiler!!1!

  • Beamish

    The first year of Manny would be unreal as he sticks it to the Sox. The second year of Manny would also be pretty good – as long as the Yankees are winning. The third year would be hell as Boras tries to get more money for him or Manny get upset at the rules. The fourth year he would just lay down unless they gave him and extension.

    Texiera will play hard and try to earn every dollar the Yankees overpay him with. Overpay being key there…

    Neither. Two years of Adam Dunn.

  • Ricochet

    Well since there is no chance that Manny is going to be a Yankee, it’s Teixeira.

    • Steve

      I know. This is Fantasy league stuff. There’s zero chance the Yanks sign Manny. For a LOT of reasons, most of which have nothing to do with Baseball.

      • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

        Explain, please. There’s plenty of reasons that Manny would be a Yankee, chief among them that Brian Cashman is smart enough to not dismiss the idea out of hand the way many fans needlessly do.

  • Joey H.

    Unanimously its Teixeria. Not only because of the upgrade of the first base both offensively(consistenly) and defensively but because having Teixeria will balance our lineup and make it easier to send the same 8 or 9 out there everyday because of his switch hitting. Right now we will have a very right handed lineup assuming Abreu and Giambi are gone. so that leaves us with, A-rod, Jeter,Nady switch hitting Posada, and lefties Cano and Damon. adding Manny would just make us a predominantly righty hitting team; not to mention the lack of defense. although it would be compromising to imagine Manny as A-rods protection, for the better versatility of the team, you cant go wrong with Teixeria.

  • Frank B.

    If you sign Manny, you better bring back Torre. Because Girardi and him can never co-exist. You would need a separate locker just for his balls… & I don’t mean baseballs. Even if he jaked it 1 game out of 3 he would still be more clutch than AROD.

  • Joey H.

    Besides, From a franchise, sales and team standpoint I don’t see it possible that the Dodgers DON’T retain Manny given the positive frenzy he has caused out west.

  • Chris

    Sign Tex, Keep Gardner in CF, Damon in LF and Nady in RF.

    The Yankees would actually have a decent defense in that situation.

    • whozat

      And about the least offensively productive in baseball. Nady’s rate stats are only a bit above average for his career. Damon was, apparently, better than the average LFer on offense last season, but…he just doesn’t have the punch you need from that position, and I’m concerned that he’ll decline. And Gardner…he hasn’t earned anything. Having him be the CFer by default with no veteran backup option is asking for trouble.

      • Frank

        Thank you. I agree here. I think Nady is going to be a big disappointment next season. And if Damon declines at all… that’s a very unproductive outfield.
        I’m not worried about 1st base as much as trading for a CFer. I think Cash has learned his lesson and I’d be suprised if Gardner starts in CF. I’m not buying Gardner one bit as an everyday player. But I love him off the bench.

        • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

          But, if we were getting Tex’s production at first and Manny’s production at LF/DH, we could easily survive with Gardner’s bat in CF. That’s one of the other reasons so many of the FA acquisitions are so appealing this year, they allow us to not have to trade away prospects to plug holes…

          • Stephen

            But if Garnder turns out to be a poor man’s Ellsbury, you can’t carry his bat. A .260/.320/.330 line (my imagined line for him) should not be anywhere near a starting line, no matter how much speed or hustliness and grit he has in him.

        • Old Ranger

          whozat/Frank…
          Has anyone seen Johnny play the OF this year? He and Bobby cost us many games because of their defence, conversely Brett has helped win a few games this year with his hitting and baseball instincts…a few stellar catches in the OF and base running (small sample, I know). I realize someone will come up with a stat to show Johnny/Bobby are avg= OFs. Stats don’t always tell the real story, seeing them play (in person) is better, when used in conjunction with stats.
          I have said, and still say; Trade Johnny (good lead off hitter) for a position player, let bobby go (Tex is better). Nady was a shadow in Sept., numbers are better then privious years…the supposition is, he will not reach these numbers again, then again maybe that is the new Nady.
          Tex is a must, sort-of…a very good player, get him! 27/09.

          • Stephen

            Abreu was terrible defensively, Damon was pretty solid

  • A.D.

    Tex all the way

  • Chip

    No question in my mind you get Tex this offseason. If you don’t get him, you better be damn sure you get some Adam Dunn or we’re going to see a Miranda/Duncan/Betemit disaster at first.

    You sign Tex and CC and this team is the best team in baseball next season. You could probably argue that they were about the fifth best team in baseball this season in fact (behind Boston, Rays, Angels and Cubs) and this would fill their two glaring holes. A lineup of Damon/Jeter/Tex/A-Rod/Matsui/Posada/Nady/Cano/Gardner is a very very good lineup and the rotation would have a legit shot at being the best in the majors

  • Alex

    I’m gonna be advocating for Cashman to trade Damon all winter: I truly love Johnny, his production, and (my perception of) his locker room presence. But Johnny’s value is at a local maximum (in this segment of his career). The organization has traditionally done an awful job of turning older, expensive players into younger cheaper ones, with Sheffield being an exception. I really think the team’s continued success rests on management’s ability to do this better.

    This is particularly true If the baseball-wide trend toward young players signing long-term deals continues -partially incited by the Yanks’ revenue sharing contributions. if that trend does continue, then the free agent market is not likely to be a sustainable source of peak-value talent… which leads me to some wishful-thinking about Tex and Manny..

    Damon and Matsui may very well need time at 1st next year if the team wants to keep their production in the lineup: a logjam and defensive problem the Yankees dont need. Simply put, Teixeria is the superior 1st base option on both sides of the ball and he is a legit peak-value talent, even on a 6 or 7 year deal. The Teixeira signing also complements my thinking on trading Damon.

    There is no way Manny makes any sense on the roster unless he 1) is a DH 2) Matsui either plays 1st base or is dealt & 3) Damon moves back to left.
    But wouldn’t a one year, $30 million deal be cool?

    • DaveM

      If you trade Damon, who bats leadoff next year? That’s really my only problem with trading him.

      • Stephen

        Jeter has shown he can do it.

      • Old Ranger

        Brett leads off…
        He has a good eye, can bunt, slap hitter (like Johnny 1st yr+) he and Jeter give us adequate #1-2 hitters. 27/09.

      • Alex

        Don’t know where to find the stats, but I think Jeter’s career numbers in the leadoff spot are better than Damon’s. I dont mean to suggest that Jeter is a comparatively better leadoff hitter, just that he is a capable one.

        Independent of Damon, the bigger question is probably who can play center (well)?

        • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike A.

          Career stats batting leadoff:

          Jeter: .315-.389-.471 (2132 plate appearances)
          Damon: .289-.355-.438 (7159 PA)

          Gotta love B-Ref.

          • Alex

            Its awesome when someone substantiates your unsubstantiated claim. Thanks Mike, and your trusty sidekick B-Ref too.

            Do Gardner’s 2009 projections – PECOTA, Zips, or otherwise – exist yet? I’d be interested to know what a full season of Brett looks like versus a full season of Melky…

            • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike A.

              No, we’ve got several months to go before any fancy schmancy projections come out.

            • Old Ranger

              They should show well.
              2nd time up he hit a lot better (around .300), his “D” was great…good extra base power, Long/Brett worked hard on getting him to use his lower half…must have worked out. 27/09.

          • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

            The problem with the “deal Damon for prospects” line of thinking is that Damon can still passably play left, while Matsui can’t. So, while I agree with everyone that Damon has value and now is the optimal time to cash in on that value, who exactly are we putting in left when we deal Johnny away? Because it’s not Hideki. Hideki is either a starting DH for the Yankees in 2009, a starting DH for someone else in 2009, or a bench player/pinch hitter.

            Actually, perhaps I can answer my own question: Manny Ramirez. I think the notion that Manny is so atrocious that he can’t play leftfield is wildly overstated, personally… I’d rate Johnny as a better leftfielder, sure, but not by much. Johnny isn’t exactly Ken Griffey Jr. in his prime out there. I mean, sure, trading Damon and handing LF to Manny so that Hideki can stay the DH isn’t the optimal solution, but I doubt moving from Damon to Manny in LF hurts our defense all that much.

            For those people here who know where to look up and interpret those fancy defensive stats (sadly, I don’t), how do these three rank as leftfielders over the past couple of years? RF and ZR and all that jazz…

            • Alex

              Defensively – Manny over Matsui (even with his knees) in left? Really??

              • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

                Good god, yes. Matsui, even before his injuries, was a bad defensive leftfielder. The knee problem just compounds it.

                People keep acting like the choice is Manny vs. two defensive whizzes in Damon and Matsui. I don’t see it. All three are below average defenders to me, and while Manny’s unquestionably the laziest and worst of the three, the margin isn’t big, IMO, and Manny can actually A) stay healthy while playing a full season in the field and B) pound the snot out of the ball enough to overcome his defensive shortcomings.

  • http://Chas Chas

    Tex over Manny, youth and defense win the day on this argument!

  • iYankees

    I would not give Tex a 7-year deal.

    6, yes, but not 7 (7 would have to be an option, if that).

    It’s probably unrealistic, however, I would make a run at both players. Yea, CC and Burnett (or Lowe) must be taken into account (contract-wise), but Andy Pettitte, another free agent, should be very cheap. Then again, if they did that and went all out, they’d likely go over last year’s payroll by a couple of million.

  • Eric

    how bout both?

  • Currambayankees

    I would prefer Tex but at no more than 7yrs. 6yrs would actually be best and I doubt anyone is giving him 10. He’ll about 35-36 by the time his contract expires which should be fine, especially if the Yankees continue to build their minors and make sure someone will be ready to take over for him before then. Somehow, Manny being Manny would not pass in NY if he tried the same cr*p he tried in Boston.

  • Joseph M

    Manny hands down. The Yanks can’t do anything with first base until the status of Posada is certain. What happens if he can’t throw anymore, what position can he play with a first baseman signed for seven years.

    Manny is a pain no doubt about it but his presence will help AROD and a more productive bat you could not find. Will his performance drop a little in years 3 and 4, it probably will but I think he gives us the best chance to restore this team to a post season threat.

    I posted this before but I will repeat it, I see Manny as a fulltime DH.

    • Accent Shallow

      I don’t think you can hold open first base for Jorge. You thought Giambi didn’t have any range?

      Jorge’s a catcher. If he can’t play catcher, he’s a sunk cost.

  • Josh

    This is really a debatable topic? Really? Even if Manny wasn’t a selfish piece of garbage, the answer would be Tex. You just know after Manny gets comfortable in the clubhouse (over/under is 3 months) he’d pull the same petulant antics he did in Boston…

    • http://www.new.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#/profile.php?id=594331910&ref=name Jamal G.

      he’d pull the same petulant antics he did in Boston…

      You mean like posting a .299/.398/.529 vital line while he was “phoning it in” with Boston, this season? Or posting 43-XBH with an 138-OPS+ during his time in Boston, this season?

      • Steve H

        yeah. we have no use for that on this team. but seriously, he adds no grit to this team, and grit wins.

        • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

          Speaking of “grit”…

          Michael Kay today had Ron Darling on his radio show and they talked about how to fix the Mets and Yankees. Darling suggested Darin Erstad as a great addition for either team. Michael Kay concurred.

          I nearly had a massive brain aneurysm.

          • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike A.

            Erstad would be a solid pickup if either team wanted to “punt” the season.

            Eh?

            • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

              He could show Cano, Gardner, Hughes and Kennedy how to grow some much-needed gritbeards.

          • DaveM

            Maybe as a bench player. But as a starter?! I don’t think so.

      • Reggie C.

        Manny will be 40 years old at the end of the 4 year contract right? Tex won’t even be 34 at the same point. The answer is Tex. But you simply cannot expect Tex to approximate Manny’s level of production. You are paying Tex not b/c he’s a better hitter than Manny, but b/c he’s going to spend the prime in pinstripes & for his Gold Glove caliber 1B.

        Its a steep price AAS wise for Tex, but outside of Adrian Gonzalez, there’s nobody available i think better for the job.

  • RollingWave

    Teix, but I’d want both

  • Mike W.

    Manny.

    Can someone please tell me what Mark Teixeira has done that makes him worth 22 million for 6 or 7 years?

    • Currambayankees

      Why would you want Manny at his age and with his antics for 3-4yrs? Just remember Manny is getting older and his bat will slow down while Tex is now entering his prime and will be an awesome glove at first to go along with a great bat from both sides.

      • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

        Well, for starters, Manny Ramirez at a diminished 40 is still probably better than 95% of all other baseball players.

        • Old Ranger

          Nobody at 40 is better than 95% of the other players. At 39/40, Manny will have a slower bat and reflexes. Hell, Manny will never reach the highs he had in NL this year…playing in AL East will not be good for his numbers. Manny has been a HOF player (past tense) but, he will fade from 2009/2010 on.
          As stated above (and by me, days ago), Tex at 36 will be a better deal than Manny at 40/41 by a huge margin. 27/09.

          • deadrody

            That is pure conjecture. I think it’s just as likely, and IMO moreso, that Manny’s immense HOF talents will translate into his 40s like many other contemporary HOFers. Like I said yesterday, think Winfield, Frank Thomas, and Eddie Murray.

            • Old Ranger

              All of whom had a drop off from age 38/39 on down the line. We are talking baseball not old folks home, we already have ageing players on the way down, they all can’t DH. 27/09.

      • RollingWave

        using antics as a reason to not sign someone is lame, age though, is a legitamate concern.

        Teix brings a GG glove to 1st, Manny will be crap in left and probably need to DH after 09.

        I’d personally do both though. if possible. and just sign CC then try to bargain shop on the pitcher side after that.

        • Currambayankees

          I take it you wouldn’t be complaining if they do sign Manny and he refuses to play just the way he did in Boston be it next year or 2-3yrs down the road. I know I’d be mad as hell if they brought in that idiot and he started the same crap here. Yes, his antics are a legit reason not to bring him here to go along with his age.

      • Mike W.

        I would want Manny as our DH for 3-4 years because he can absolutely crush the ball and I think he would be amazing playing in New York in his backyard.

        I like Tex. He’s pretty good. I just don’t know if I am on board for him as a 22 million+ player…

  • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

    If, IF, you really can’t sign both (and I still think you can), it’s Tex. There are three key reasons that have been mentioned repeatedly here by many commenters (age, defense, and attitude), and they’re all excellent. The fourth, the coup-de-grace is that Tex is a switch hitter.

    As the aging lefty bats start dropping out, our core going forward is Jeter/ARod/Cano/Posada – two righties, a lefty, and a switch hitter. I’d rather add Tex’s ability to frequently be a lefty to that lineup for the next 7 years than Manny’s righty bat.

    I love, LOVE the thought of Manny in pinstripes, but the smart move is Tex. (Well, the smart move is both, but you know what I mean).

    • Count Zero

      Agreed.

  • Mac

    Forgive me if someone said this, but I think maybe the reality is that we need Tex AND a productive outfielder. I don’t think the Manny is the answer to that though. Perhaps the trade market? The outfield is going to be a problem (other than A-Jax) soon, so it’s something that’d be interesting to address. My vote however is totally for Tex. Manny should stick with the Dodgers.

  • DP

    Why not sign Baldelli to a contract that gives him like a mill per 100/150 ABs to play CF? Worst case scenerio, he gets hurt, costs not that much, and buys time for Gardner/Jackson.

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike A.

      Why not sign Baldelli to a contract that gives him like a mill per 100/150 ABs to play CF?

      You know, I thought about doing something like this for Pavano. Say a $4M base salary, and $300k per start. If he makes 30 starts that’s an extra $9M in his pocket.

      • Mike W.

        I would be totally down for this, but I think Pavano probably wants to get the heck out of here…

        I think he has some big starts left in his major league career; I just don’t know if they are in the new Yankee stadium.

      • Reggie C.

        No. Pavano’s barely a competent #5 pitcher. I didn’t see anything in his handful of starts that would make me pick him over any number of available guys. I’d pick Tim Wakefield before Pavano.

        • Mike W.

          You think that Pavano (if healthy) is barely a competent #5 pitcher? That seems a bit off. Actually, it seems way off.

          • Reggie C.

            look at the last four years and tell where he’s been effective.

            • Old Ranger

              He has been hurt…
              Did you see him pitch this year? We have better pitchers then what he showed us this year…right? Well, for a guy coming off TJ (a year ago) and not pitching many innings before the big show…he did very good, next year he will be much better. Next year he will have had time to build up his arm, therefor he’ll be stronger and better. 27/09.

      • http://www.new.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#/profile.php?id=594331910&ref=name Jamal G.

        I’d rather just pick up the option on Carl Pavano. Are there really better alternatives out on the market that will give you a veteran starter for one year? Pavano adds some damn good depth, and again, it’s only for one year.

        • Old Ranger

          Thank you…
          He would fit in as a good #3-4. 27/09.

          • Bo

            Pavano? The same guy who is hated in the clubhouse and his teammates openly think is a quitter? A pitcher who hasn’t pitched in 4 years besides that convenient “lets show them we’re healthy stint” right before his contract ends?

            Good call.

            • Old Ranger

              Is there a rule that says one has to like a player before he can join the team? Pavano is a good #3-4 pitcher, would you pay CMW $10mm to go pitch for someone else? Granted, CMW is a better pitcher but I think you get the drift. Also, next year we need someone in place of Andy/Moose and only need one top line pitcher for 2009. CMW, Joba, CC, Pavano, Phil…I would venture to say that is one hell of a staff. 27/09.

              • Old Ranger

                Sorry, posted in wrong place! 27/09.

  • Manimal

    We need a live chat soon.

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike A.

      I’m doing one tomorrow. I’ll post the details in DotF in a few minutes.

  • daniel

    ive made it clear before that I like Manny, and im sticking by it. Four years is perfect, and if the yankees offense produces like its supposed to (which i know is an if, but manny would help), first base can be adequately filled in by some combination of players, allowing girardi to give valuable bats a “day off”, while still keeping them in the lineup. You simply cannot pass on the best hitter of this generation, regardless of the length of his hair. The Yankees have had explosive personalities before, and its worked out okay, ie Babe Ruth, Mickey Mantle, and Reggie Jackson, just to name a few. Plus, think about the middle of that lineup around jeter, still a far above average contact hitter, a-rod who is, contrary to popular belief in this city, arguably the greatest player of all time, and Manny, arguably the best right-handed hitter ever. Monster.

    • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

      While I’ll agree with everything you said, it would be nice if one of those three players (Jeter, ARod, Manny) could learn how to hit lefthanded…

      • Old Ranger

        We will be short of leftys…inter Tex, no Manny. 27/09.

    • Currambayankees

      All those players you mentioned came to the Yankees during their prime or way before it. Manny is on the other side of his prime and will start to show that soon enough. Age makes a huge difference.

    • Old Ranger

      “The Mick” was never a explosive personality, he was very shy…and one of the top 10 best players I’ve ever seen play. Better then A-Rod, Manny, Jacksonand many other, so called great players…talk about grit. 27/09.

      • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

        Better than Griffey? I always thought they were good comps for each other, I’d be interested to hear the opinions of someone who lived through both of them…

        • Old Ranger

          I say yes…
          I only wish some of you (younger) guys could have seen MM play, in his prime. Maybe if you had, you might just agree with me…then again, maybe not.
          The game is much better for a hitter now days, pitchers can’t throw at batters (I mean inside), the strike zone is smaller, better equipment, medical, the list goes on.
          Look, KG along with guys such as A-Rod, Mo etc,. are great, but the greatest…that’s a tough call. 27/09.

          • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

            cool, thanks.

  • pat

    greg oden for ROY

    • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

      What, no Adam Morrison?

      • pat

        adam morrison for SOY, sobber of the year

  • YankeeGarry

    Gotta go with Tex. He plays hard, is GREAT on D and is the kind of offensive force we will love for years to come. Manny is a clown. He has proven, over and over again, that he is NO YANKEE.

  • Reggie C.

    Does anyone think Manny will actually slug .600 next season? I think he’s better than a .530 slugger, which is what he posted in 100 games with the RS this season. But i’d go so far as to say that Manny can still match A-rod’s slugging in “off-years”. Manny is a devastating hitter for sure, but maybe … maybe the gap b/w him and Tex isn’t as large as originally thought..

    p.s., What is this?? The boys from Yesnetwork message boards (chas / art vandelay) are visiting these boards. Awesome. Keep on posting guys! Btw, BxScion is my cousin.

  • daniel

    lets rewind to 2001. the yankees signed a power firstbaseman who played hard and was a great hitter. im not saying giambi has been a total bust in ny, but i definitely think we have to avoid going down that road. the defense and switch hitting very important, and that is where the comparison ends, but it is good to have flexibility at 1st base, especially as some yankees get older. will we really wont mark texiera in 7 years? maybe, maybe not, but i know that in 2010 i will want manny ramirez dhing and hitting .330 with 30 hr and 125 rbi, which he will def be able to put up

    • Bo

      Stop comparing Tex , a gold glove winning 1b, with a DH like Giambi.

      it isn’t close to the same thing.

  • Januz

    The way to go is NEITHER Tex or Manny. I want to build through the farm. I like MONTERO at first, and Romine behind the plate. But if I had to choose one it would be Tex. The superior defense will help Cano big time (Nanny is a horrible outfielder). The age issue is huge as well.

    • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

      So, in your scenario, are we just going to DVR the 2009 and 2010 seasons, go play bocce ball, and then fast-forward to 2011 when Montero and Romine are ready to play in the bigs?

      • Steve H

        and hope that they pan out. they are so far away, and so far from guarantees. no, not a fan of that plan.

      • Reggie C.

        As impressive a campaign that Montero put together lets see him repeat it in High-A. At that point, yea , he’s gets alot closer to being a sure thing. I’ve seen alot of prospects turn in a good year but then come crashing down to earth.

    • zzzzz

      hasn’t someone said something about montero in right field maybe? he does have an absolute gun for an arm, no? its a shame to waste that talent.

      • pat

        little to no mobility

      • Currambayankees

        He’s slower than snail sh*t from what I understand, why would you put him the outfield? No, he either stays behind the dish or becomes a 1st baseman/dh.

  • E-ROC

    I’ll take Manny for four years.

  • X-Man

    Texeira!!

    Who are our 3er bat now? Jeter? Cano? Nady?

    A-Rod 3er Tex 3rd
    Tex 4th o A-Rdo 4th

    • Currambayankees

      I might want Tex 4th and ARod 3rd lets see if maybe that take some pressure off ARod.

  • pat

    oh espn how you could do a montage of important postseason homeruns and not include joe carter is beyond me

  • deadrody

    If I had to choose one ofr the other, I would choose Tex. But if I had my choice, ultimately it would be BOTH.

  • josh

    what are the chances we could trade cano for delmon young

    • RollingWave

      if anything, Young was almost as dissapointing as Cano this year

      • Bo

        Delmon Young??

        Uggh

        Was that serious?

        • Reggie C.

          Can’t believe matt Garza is a #4 on that Rays rotation. Absolutely sick!! The Twins sold Gaza pretty low for no reason.

  • ortforshort

    Let’s see. One is twenty eight, the other is thirty seven. One is a class act, the other is a cancer in the clubhouse. One is a great fielder, the other is a one dimensional liability on defense, one is a switch hitter, the other bats one way. What was the question again?

    • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

      One is a really good hitter with a lifetime OPS+ of 134 accumulated mainly in a extremely hitters-advantageous park against shitty AL West pitchers and little postseason experience…

      …the other is an insanely, foolishly, ridonkulously, video-gamey, top-15 dead-or-alive amazingly good hitter with a lifetime OPS+ of 155 accumulated mainly in neutral parks against elite AL East pitchers with more huge postseason AB’s than you can shake a stick at.

      You left that part out.

      • Frank B.

        a FREAKIN men! except for maybe Pujols, MAYBE, who hits like Manny? He’s Reggie in the 21st century with a bit more talent.

        • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

          I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again. Manny is the second best offensive machine in the majors today. Pujols is the only player I’d but in front of him. That statement includes ARod.

    • mustang

      AGREEEEEE !!!!!!

  • Andy In Sunny Daytona

    Wow, the onlt pictures that you could find of these guys were Pre-Millenium Manny and High School/College Mark?

  • Bo

    They need a 1b. They need a high OBP guy. They need to improve their defense. They need to get younger.

    How that doesn’t mean Tex is in pinstripes, I don’t know.

    • Reggie C.

      If Tex gives Boras the “get me the most money” mandate then there’s simply no way the Yanks get outbid. This loss to the RS had to have left a sour taste. I’m pretty sure the halos considered themselves the better team coming into the series which makes this quick exit a shock.

  • Mike K.

    I say we sign both. We’re definitely saying goodbye to Giambi (21M), Abreu (16M), Pavano (11M), and possibly more – but that right there is 48M off the books for next year. As per what you at RAB listed (I think it might take more for Ramirez than 4/88M) sign Teixeira for 22M(7/154M), Ramirez for 22M(4/88M), and Sabathia for 21M(6/125M) – that’s 65M, leaving a difference of only 17M. I mean seriously, I’m not a spoiled Yanks fan, and wouldn’t be able to afford it myself, but how deep are the Steinbrenners pocket’s? Like I said, there is also potential more money to be freed up, and I think if we signed Moose and Pettitte at smaller contracts, or just one of the previously mentioned and Hughes or Aceves takes a spot, that fills our pitching and run scoring deficiencies… Here’s to ’09!

  • Axl

    Mark Teixeira is significantly younger, plays a much better defense, is a switch hitter, and while I’ve heard he keeps to himself and isn’t much of a “clubhouse guy”…the rest makes up for it.

    Manny Ramirez is a pure hitter. He’s not very good at much else. If he’s gunning somebody out trying to extend a single into a double…it’s just because he wants to get up to the plate again faster…he’ll hit anything in any count and in any situation…clutch, un-clutch…he just loves to hit.

    Manny Ramirez also has the ability to make other average players (Ortiz, Ethier) into hitting machines as well…before Manny, Ortiz was a .260 hitter who hit tops 20 HR and 80 RBI….after Manny…seeing all those fastballs…he became a .280-.300 hitter, with upwards of 50 HR and 120 RBI. Ethier’s average on the Dodgers also skyrocketed…after Manny’s arrival…he hit around .370 with 10 HR and a bunch of RBI.
    So imagine the numbers Alex rodriguez could put up in front of Manny?!?

    The problem is, Manny is significantly older than Teixeira. He is far worse on defense and if we don’t sign Teixeira for 1B, and maybe sign Kevin Millar at 1B instead…we’ll have half of the 04 Red Sox but 4 years older in age.

    Either/or doesn’t hurt. I’m a bigger fan of less years on a contract…I don’t like the idea of long large contracts…every since Jason Giambi’s unnecessary one in 2003.

  • nick blasioli

    clearly, the yankees can afford tex,aj burnette and cc sab……those three aquisitions would do wonders for the yanks next year…ill keep my fingers crossed that this happens….

  • X-Man

    180mm is the top of the payroll

  • mustang

    Tex, Tex, and Tex.

    Easily.

    For all the reason that ortforshort. listed above.

    Manny is a CANCER plain and simple.
    People fall in love with his numbers and just excuse the asshole that he is.

    • mustang

      By the way I would be shocked if Cashman sign him the last time Manny was a free agent Manny and his people didn’t treat Cashman with all that much respect.

  • Rory

    If we are letting both Giambi and Abreu go, along with Pavano, and one of Mussina and Pettitte, I see no reason for the Yankees to not be able to sign both, and even go after a Starter. Manny’s poor range would be no worse than Abreu’s in RF, and his arm is plenty strong. After one year there, he can move to DH when it is vacated by Matsui.
    However, if it is just one or the other, it has to be Teixeira. His defense is an advantage, and his position is a bigger hole. Add to that their ages… it has to be Tex.

  • RobC

    Tex by far
    BA/OBP and defense.
    Back in the dark ages when I was a Philies fan comments where made that Scott Rolen made so many great throwplays at 3rd base b/c he has confident Rico Brogna would catch the throw at 1st
    Also see “Why Billie beanes shit doesnt work int he play-offs

    Manny is worht making an offer but I would not do 4 yrs.
    Two yearzss maybe 3 with an opt out after 2 so he is motivated.

  • Shineon

    I cant believe anyone would choose Manny. End of story. This guy is going to ruin a clubhouse and then a team. Plus we (the yankees) seem to have a glut of possible DH cadidates (yes I used “we” LOL). I hope no one actually thinks Manny can play LF… TEX all the way. Lowe (for $ reasons), TEX (for all reasons), then a CF that can hit for AVG and play defence (needs speed too). This of course is predicated on the assumption that either Pettitte or Mussina will be back in pinstripes next year, otherwise another SP is definitely required.

    Sorry but I want no part of Manny being Manny (or being Sheffield)… I dont know who does it better…

  • Beau

    I agree that filling the soon to be void at 1st base is most important among position players. The Yanks don’t need another aging slugger like Manny, who can’t play the field for shit! That’s the thing the Yankees have tried to do since the glory days in the late 90′s. We need to dump our garbage contracts now that we have the chance and wisely spend the $$ on young low-baggage team players. I know this argument is Manny vs. Tex, or both. I’m more concerned about filling the pitching staff with the likes of Sabathia or Burnett. I don’t mind a veteran pitcher like Lowe, as long as we’re not over-spending for them. The Yankees need to be content with letting Matsui or Damon go, even if it means getting decent prospects for them. I am sick of filling holes with aging veterans who have no excitement. Going the route of a youth movement will put the enthusiam back into winning that has so long been missing from this team.

  • Mike K.

    What everyone fails to realize is that with getting Ramirez, I would’nt want him to touch the field. He would be our DH. You get Tex for 1B, you play Matsui in LF, suck it up for the defense and put Damon in CF, and Nady in RF. You’ve got Arod and Jeter locking up the left of the infield, Cano and Tex the right. Po-po and Molina behind the plate. Sign Sabathia and get some reformation of Moose/Pettite, Wang, Chamberlain, Hughes, Aceves. Personally, I’d like to see Hughes in the pen, just as Joba and Pettite did before him.

  • http://kwhitey kevin white

    Tex for 7-150 approx., sign 2 of the 3 pithers my preference is lowe and burnett, less years, less money, less risk. See if we can package Nady and a reliever(Veras, Edwar, Bruney) for Magglio Ordonez. Tgers looking to slash payroll get a replacement in right and much needed bullpen help, we get Mags an offensive force, avg defense. Lineup:
    DAMON LF
    JETER SS
    AROD3B
    TEX 1B
    MAGS RF
    MATSUI DH
    POSADA C
    CANO 2B
    GARDNER CF

  • bigthree

    You have to take Manny and only Manny. First, there is no way the yankees should get BOTH. Sure, they could afford it and on paper their individual stats would appear good, but it would be a bad idea. Just like having Sheff in RF with Randy Johnson starting in the rotation got us nowhere, trying to get the best All-Stars at all positions doesn’t give you a title. You need a good mix of players not the best players everywhere.

    As for Manny, right now he is simply better than Tex and Manny is a beast in the postseason. Manny could very well continue to be as good as Tex or better in 3 years. I think the yankees owe it to Mo/Posada/Jeter/Pettitte to try and put the best chance at winning out over the next few years. While Tex will be around for 7/8 years, it will be a vastly different team then and there will be ways to build a productive team closer to then.

    That being said, Manny should only DH. Try and move matsui, but if you can’t he is still coming off surgery, so there is no guarantee he gives you anything and when he walks after 09, get a draft pick. as for 1B, leave it open to sign a FA who just plays good defense and is an average hitter. You also leave it open for a miranda/montero/posada as needed, rather than be stuck with 1 person as they have been the last 7 years.

    • http://kwhitey kevin white

      We need to get out of this we owe these guys something mentality, yes we appreciate their contributions but where does it end? These guys have been well compensated for there efforts and remember the last championship was 7 years ago, time to move on or we will be looking up at Boston in the standings for a long time. It’s time to say goodbye to Andy. There I said it.

  • ohbwonhomie

    how about this:

    Damon Lf
    hudson 2b great d, good tude, like him if we have to trade cano for pitching
    Jeter ss why not bat him 3rd
    Arod 3b
    Tex 1b a must sign!!!
    posada c
    matsui DH
    xman rf
    gardner cf

    Ransom inf gotta like his versatility
    cabrera of still can be a good 4th
    molina c amust for next yr
    moeller c or some other bench or utility player

    wang
    lowe innings innings and knows the east
    chamberlain
    hughes got to give him a shot to put it together at this level short leash though.
    ???>>>still dont think CC wants in, sheets and Burnett’s injury riddle past respectively,still frightens me. i was thinking can cain be had for cano, or how about peavy, i know i’m dreamin but how about oswalt couldnt we package something. we need another bonafide starter or two. lets think!!!

    giese long/swing
    marte lhspecialist
    veras mrp
    ramirez mrp
    coke lsetup
    bruney rsetup
    rivera god