Torre, the Yanks and the Hall of Fame

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While I’m still waiting on my copy of The Yankee Years, one thing is clear about this whole Joe Torre dust: His reputation is in tatters. He broke the age-old code of writing about the clubhouse, and he will pay a price for it.

Exhibit A: Wallace Matthews reports, in a column to which Joe linked last night, that Joe Torre will not be welcome at the new Yankee Stadium. Torre was conspicuously absent during the closing ceremonies for the new stadium, but this is probably the final straw.

The Yanks can be rather petty too. Number Six will not earn its place among the retired numbers, and Torre won’t get the recognition from the team he deserves following the success he enjoyed over his twelve years in the Bronx. I’m not sure which side gets to claim the high ground here.

Exhibit B: Cooperstown. This is where I leave the debate up to our RAB readers. A quick scan of the headlines reveals stories similar to this one by John Harper. By opening his mouth, Torre has damaged his standing among the sportswriters who once idolized him, and it jeopardizes his Hall of Fame standing.

So a poll:

In light of his new book, will Joe Torre be elected into the Hall of Fame?
View Results
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  • steve (different one)

    ehh, by the time he is eligible, people will have forgotten a lot of this.

    i think he still gets in.

    but for now? he looks like a prick.

  • A.D.

    His career isn’t over… if he wins a WS series with the Dodgers, no way he doesn’t get in the hall.

    My guess is in a few years people will forget about the book, they Yankees won’t, they’ll still snub him. But the writers will put him in the hall.

  • Bo

    Is Harper serious?

    That’s a complete joke. He didn’t do anything. He put his name to a book to crapped on jerks like Pavano.

    His record as a manager speaks for itself.

    • http://actyankee.blogspot.com Matt

      “His record as a manager speaks for itself.”

      Not really. He was sub .500 before coming to the Yankees and he has a lot of work to be done in LA if he’s going to be a lock for the HOF, IMO.

      And let’s be honest, writers hold grudges. If this pisses them off enough, Torre won’t get in.

      • A.D.

        Eh, how many managers with 4 WS aren’t in the Hall?

        Writers didn’t like Jim Rice & his numbers weren’t that impressive and he still got in.

        • La Costco Nostra

          So, you’re saying that the HoF elections are a joke, anyway, so who gives a shit?

          Well, I agree.

          • A.D.

            In some cases yes.

            My point is his resume book or no book is far greater than those in the hall already… so really he should be there.

            • Jay CT

              The fact is, he is one of the few to ever lead a team to 4 titles and 6 World Series visits. I think on the whole, the national media will not have as much issue with this as the New York media does, and by that time, I think they won’t really care anyway.

      • Nady Nation

        Torre definitely looks like a douche in this whole scenario, but come on, his record definitely DOES speak for itself. Sure, he was sub .500 before coming to the Yankees, but he took the Yanks to the playoffs for 12 straight years and won 4 titles. You can say he stepped into a good situation if you want, but to poo-poo those accomplishments based on that belief is just unfair.

        • http://actyankee.blogspot.com Matt

          I’m not saying it’s totally fair to poo-poo those but it has to be taken into context–did Torre make the Yankees or did the Yankees make Torre? I think it’s definitely more the latter. He’ll probably still get in and I’ll have no problem if he does…but I think if the writers feel like being pricks–which we all know they can be–he might have to wait.

    • The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

      Dude. Once again, you have a very selective memory. The book discusses a lot of people, not just Carl Pavano (and Torre was wrong for discussing Pavano, too). Regardless of whether or not I agree with you, here’s a bit of advice: Nobody will take you or your arguments seriously if you use clearly, easily verifiably false or incomplete facts as the basis for your conclusions.

      • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

        Moreover, even if the book was nothing but shitting on Pavano and other “jerks”, what’s so ennobling about writing a book apropos of nothing shitting on jerks?

        Is it cool to pick on easy targets because they’re easy targets? Was it cool for that Texas highschool basketball team to beat up on that small school for kids with learning disabilities because they were inferior?

        Joe wrote what appears by all accounts to be a very nasty book shitting on numerous players he managed for their shortcomings and mistakes, and never appears to take any blame for anything on himself. Whether he’s badmouthing Pavano the fan whipping boy or Jeter the fan favorite, it’s classless and lowbrow and serves no constructive purpose.

        Boo him and boo you, Bo, for taking the low road.

        Saying that the book is kosher because Pavano is a jerk is like saying that a sexual assault victim was “asking for it.”

        • The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

          That’s a good point, now I’m even more pissed about this book (I’ve been trying to care about it as little as possible). It’s gross that he would make public what are, apparently in certain cases, pretty personal moments of weakness for some of these people. Did anyone need to know about the time Kevin Brown ran to the clubhouse during a game and wanted to go home instead of pitching? Who gains ANYTHING by telling these stories to the public? People are only hurt by this, nobody gains anything (other than Torre/Verducci making some money, I guess). We should all always appreciate Torre for being a part (and one of the main public faces) of those late-90s teams, but he looks like a real fuckface in the wake of the release of this book and I don’t mind the Yankees saying “F you” to him and shunning him for a long while.

          • Rick in Boston

            It’s not like the team hasn’t done that in the past. After Ball Four, the Yankees distanced themselves from Bouton until the mid-to-late 90’s when Steinbrenner patched things up with him.

        • Jay CT

          Great post. Completely agree

        • Babe’s Ghost

          Settle down there cowboy… there’s a huge gulf between publicly calling out multimillionaire adult athletes who loaf or otherwise undermine the team and beating the stuffing out of an LD HS basketball team, not to mention comitting a crime like rape. Personally, I’m going to wait until I read the book before I decide where this falls on the scale between telling it like it is and settling scores while ignoring his own failings.

          This whole jockstrap code of silence thing is a bit much for me. Imagine how much better off baseball would be if fellow athletes had called each other out for PED cheating and nipped it in the bud before it metastasized and took down perhaps the greatest pitcher and greatest hitter ever?

          And for the record, it is kind of cool to tell the truth as you see it and say damn the consequences.

          • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

            Babe, you know that’s totally not what I was saying.

            I wasn’t equating Pavano “loafing” or otherwise “undermining the team” with rape. I was equating the concept of that saying Torre publicly ripping Pavano by claiming that since Pavano’s a “jerk” the public ripjob is somehow okay to the reprehensible concept that a sexual assault is ever in any way condoned/excused/mitigated by the victim somehow “asking for it”.

            They’re both blaming the victim. “She was asking for it” is blaming the victim, and that’s wrong and stupid. Saying that Torre has carte blanche to betray the trust that people put in him as their manager because those players weren’t good players that we liked (like Pavano) is akin to saying that Pavano was “asking for it”.

            Just because we don’t care much for Pavano doesn’t mean that Torre’s book isn’t a horrible hackjob, nor is it justified by the fact that the targets of Torre’s ire aren’t awesome guys we all love.

            The quote “That’s a complete joke. He didn’t do anything. He put his name to a book to crapped on jerks like Pavano.” is blaming the victim.

        • D.B.H.O.F. p.k.a Don Corleone

          I was with you on most of this until this was said:

          “Saying that the book is kosher because Pavano is a jerk is like saying that a sexual assault victim was “asking for it.””

          You tend to go overboard to try to prove points. It is very possible someone reading that comment on this page is in fact a sexual assault victim or has a loved one that is and you just trivialized it to prove a point about a baseball book? That is in poor taste to say the least.

          Torre mad a major mistake here and his reputation will take a big blow in the process. Other than that it was a hypocritical thing to do, and very low class move in my opinion.

          Torre obviously feels he is more important than he really is, and his ego was bruised so he lashed out while trying to cash in.

          One last thing, I think with the tone of his first book with Verducci, it was obvious if another one was written it almost had to go in this direction. Nobody would buy a sapped up longer version of the first book. They might have if Torre left is a classy way but he really did not. He had been pampered for far too long and felt that he could just write his own ticket and do whatever he liked here and hang around and catch huge checks without being accountable.

          He was wrong.

          • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

            You tend to go overboard to try to prove points.

            Perhaps. I certainly may choose analogies for their shock value in order to underline my point in bold, 72-pica font.

            You got my drift, though…

            It is very possible someone reading that comment on this page is in fact a sexual assault victim or has a loved one that is and you just trivialized it to prove a point about a baseball book? That is in poor taste to say the least.

            I don’t feel like I trivialized anything, personally. My analogy was not about sexual assault, it was about the ignorant way that some neanderthals attempt to justify/mitigate/condone sexual assault. Similarly, simply speaking about the viewpoints of a Nazi does not mean I agree with them or validate them.

            Furthermore, saying that two abstract concepts are wrong for the same reasons and in the same manner does not necessarily mean the two concepts are equal in all ways and intensities. It merely means they’re analogous. I didn’t feel the need to attach any disclaimers to anything because we’re all adults capable of understanding analogies, no?

      • NYY fan

        ” Speaking for myself here” I am a huge NYY fan and i would think of all of the things Joe Torre goes throgh is tough and i voted yes

  • Btour99

    Definitely a douchebag move by Torre, but i don’t think its something that could or should keep him out of The Hall.

  • http:slidingintohome.net Greg C

    I think he’ll get in. There may be writers upset with him, but I don’t think it will make that much of a difference.

  • A.D.

    If Jim Rice can get into the hall, Torre will.

    • http://actyankee.blogspot.com Matt

      Funny, Joe Torre, playing a much more physically demanding position, has the same OPS+ and very similar slash stats.

      Rice: .298/.352/.502
      Torre: .297/.365/.452

      Torre’s got a higher WARP1 (105.5-73), WARP2 (101.0-78.5), and WARP3 (101.2-80.2) than Rice and a higher EQA (.298-.293). Rice does have an advantage in wOBA, though, .375 to .363.

      • steve (different one)

        everything you say is true, but i think the argument here is confined to getting in as a manager.

  • nick blasioli

    he probably will get in,,,but with an asterik by his name for being a rat…

  • Jake H

    I say yes he deserves to be in the hall but I’m not completely sure. I do want to see what the book has to say before I cast my final vote. I think it does depend on what is said in the book. I also take into account Torre’s playing days too. He is coming out pretty bad in this book. What other managers have written books after they left a team?

    • steve (different one)

      I do want to see what the book has to say before I cast my final vote.

      i’m not trying to pick on you, but i don’t get this excuse at this point.

      there has been soooo much leaked by now.

      i don’t need to wait to see the book. i’ve read enough ACTUAL excerpts from the book to know that he crossed the line.

  • William

    It doesn’t matter what the writers think. Torre is not eligible on the BBWAA ballot. If he is ever elected, it will be by the VC.

  • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

    Re: Exhibit A – He will still get #6 retired.
    Re: Exhibit B – He will still get into Cooperstown.

    Time heals all wounds. He may have delayed both of those processes, but he didn’t destroy them.

    It was a book. It looks to be a horrible, horrible book and an awfully bad idea, but he still had those rings and records. Time will pass, he’ll say some mumbled, unspecific regrets, 50-year old retired Jeter and Mo and Andy and even ARod will be magnanimous and say it’s time to come in from the cold, and all will be forgiven.

    • A.D.

      Someone might get to wear 6 though

      • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

        George Selkirk, Bud Metheney, Roy Weatherley, Eddie Bockman, Frank Colman, Allie Clark, and Cliff Mapes all wore Babe Ruth’s #3 before it went up into Momument Park.

        • D.B.H.O.F. p.k.a Don Corleone

          True, good point. But it is a different time period. Pretty much now they will not issue a number that is going to get retired. Nobody wore 23 after Donnie, etc.

          I still think it is possible to get it retired but I would assume a different ownership might have to be in place for it to happen.

          Also Joe is not a young man, he might not live to be 80 or 90 like some guys and the window might pass on him being able to see a number retired. I do believe he will make it into the Hall though.

          • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

            This is true.

            It’s probably a moot point, I doubt the Yankees give out #6 in any event.

  • Andy

    I am the biggest Torre hater around right now, but please. If Jim Rice is a Hall of Famer, Torre is a Hall of Famer as well, as a PLAYER, not to mention what he did as a coach. I know the writers’ decisions about the Hall haven’t been all that great, but I would hope they wouldn’t be so petty as to allow a book to blind them to the fact that a borderline Hall of Fame player was one of the most successful managers ever, winning 4 WS and guiding his team to the playoffs for 13 straight years (and still counting).

    • http://actyankee.blogspot.com Matt

      See my comment above for just how comparable they were as players.

      • Andy

        Saw that after the fact – nice work.

    • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

      I know the writers’ decisions about the Hall haven’t been all that great, but I would hope they wouldn’t be so petty as to allow a book to blind them to the fact that a borderline Hall of Fame player was one of the most successful managers ever, winning 4 WS and guiding his team to the playoffs for 13 straight years (and still counting).

      Corky Simpson didn’t vote for Rickey Henderson because he’s “not a Rickey guy”.

      I agree that this shouldn’t influence Hall voters… but they don’t have a great track record for clear, dispassionate thought.

    • D.B.H.O.F. p.k.a Don Corleone

      While I am not a Torre hater or apologist, I think Torre gets in. He will be in the managers group. I think but he is one of those all purpose guys that I think they should make a special wing for. He was a very good offensive player but not great, and from what most respected people from that timer period will say was a horrible catcher and not very good anywhere else with the glove.

      He won 4 rings as a manager, and all the other playoff jazz. He was a pretty solid broadcaster as well. Will have at least written two best sellers on the subject of baseball. Pretty good pitchman as well (minus those horrid tea commercials)

  • pete c.

    Torre punked out.

  • Sweet Dick Willie

    Bronx Banter has a quote from the book I hadn’t seen before:

    http://www.bronxbanterblog.com.....s-of-fire/

    Holy Schnikees!

    • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

      “Then Donahue would rub the hottest possible liniment on his testicles,” Verducci writes.

      Never in my life have I ever been happier to never have been employed as a Yankee trainer.

      • Sweet Dick Willie

        Yeah, does Donahue get “combat pay” for that? Talk about going above and beyond the call of duty!

        • Jay CT

          Yankees have a policy of Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell…

      • Sweet Dick Willie

        Would the Yankees be so spiteful as to issue #6 to a player THIS YEAR? And not a player with star potential, someone like Cody Ransom?

        It would be like Michael Corleone saying “he doesn’t exist to me.”

        • D.B.H.O.F. p.k.a Don Corleone

          I really would hope they do not do something as crass as that. Why put the pressure on some kid that does not need the extra pressure.

          Now I could see the smarter play if they want to play that game would be to sign a guy or trade for a big name guy in the next year or two who already wears a number 6. Then they have a reason and an explanation to do it.

          But I think we are both thinking to far ahead on that one.

  • Jay CT

    I have never been a huge Torre fan, believing more that he had exceptional talent and that Don Zimmer helped in game tremendously. I do not think this should keep Torre out of the Hall, but I would have no problem with them not allowing him back for any special days. He chose this route. He wanted the lure of a few extra pennies to add to his millions, and to have the “last word” on the team. If the Yankees decide not to let him back, I am all for it. If they retire his number, I won’t lose any sleep over it nor care much about it.

  • Januz

    There is no doubt that Torre is going to Cooperstown. The only questions involved are 1: Will he go in as a Yankee? If he is really angry he could request to go in as a Cardinal, or not at all, and it would amaze me if they did not grant that request. 2: If he elects to come back, will he be welcomed back to Yankee Stadium? The answer to that is yes. BOTH Goose Gossage and Dave Winfield BOTH of whom left under less than favorable conditions, were welcomed back with open arms. 3: Will they retire his number? That issue has become a powderkeg (See Paul O’Neill’s 21). Keep in mind, keing elected to the Hall of Fame does not guarantee that. For example: Gossage’s 54 has not been retired, and he went in as a Yankee.
    The ultimate decision will be up to Joe. If he really thinks he was wronged, then he should do what Yogi Berra did, and stay away for many years (Or never come back). If he does this, I could respect his standing up for principle. If however, he is acting like a spoiled brat (Which I believe he did), and tries to worm his way back,in the near future, then he will show his true colors, for everyone to see.

    • Jay CT

      He can’t pick his hat. If he goes in, its for the Yankees. There is no way he can match those numbers anywhere else.

      • Januz

        Torre’s career numbers with St Louis and Atlanta are well above average (Including an MVP), so they could look at the complete picture (Player and Manager) If however, they said no to that, I would have a lot of respect for Torre if he said no to the Hall of Fame, and requested that he never be elected. I just don’t see him doing that.

        • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

          I would have a lot of respect for Torre if he said no to the Hall of Fame, and requested that he never be elected. I just don’t see him doing that.

          Asking a man to forgo admission to the Hall of Fame of his profession because he’s having a tiff with the team that he’s most famously associated with is a mighty tall request to make of a man.

        • jsbrendog

          except that the hall of fame tells you what hat you wear into the hall. might i direct you to the great gary carter fiasco.

          he has no chouice once he is elected who he goes in as or when or anything at all. i would LOVE it if he burns all his bridges etc shows himself to be a total sdouchebag and say he hated his time here and then be elected and HAVE to go in with the interlocking ny. wonder how that speech will go eh?

  • Bryan V

    I’ve got a wild idea!

    We wait until we’ve actually read the book, and seen all these quotes in their true context, before deciding this guy’s HOF fate?

    What do you say?

    • Jay CT

      I say he gets in. No matter whose testicles gets rubbed down in the book.

    • The Honorable Congressman Mondesi
    • UNION YES.

      Save your money. If you want to buy a book, go for John Updike. I’ve read enough of Torre’s excerpts. (Context. Context? We’re talking about context? Context?) Seriously though, there’s nothing to spin here. What you saw is what you’re going to get.

      • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

        (Context. Context? We’re talking about context? Context?)

        ICWUDT

    • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

      We wait until we’ve actually read the book, and seen all these quotes in their true context, before deciding this guy’s HOF fate?

      What are you, Rod Blagojevich? There’s no amount of “context” that’s going to make the nasty things Torre’s said less nasty.

      It’s not like it’s cool to out Kevin Brown for crying in the clubhouse after a bad outing because in the very next sentence Torre says “But I always liked Kevin, he’s a good father.” It doesn’t work that way. You still outed him.

      “Take the quote in its true context” is a BS excuse and you know it.

      • D.B.H.O.F. p.k.a Don Corleone

        I laughed pretty hard at this one:

        “But I always liked Kevin, he’s a good father.”

        So I take it the punching the wall thing was not true and he just was a nutjob and they covered for him? Anybody know any more on this?

  • UNION YES.

    I’m endorsing No Maas’s stance on Torre. It’s a darn shame.

  • UNION YES.

    I’m not 100% certain, but I don’t think Girardi has responded with any real substance. He needs to defend his boys. Yankees need to unite against this rat. I’ll always appreciate Joe for what he did, but he needs to be put in his place. Loose lips sink ships bitch!

    • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

      Meh, Girardi should and probably is keeping as wide a distance as possible from that bag of turd. There’s no great benefit in him adding his two cents, particularly since he wasn’t in the Bronx for much of the time period covered.

      Just sit back and let the anti-Torre vitriol work its magic on motivating ARod, Damon, and the gang. This book is the icing on the cake for this offseason; I can’t remember the last time I was this confident about us winning it all.

      • jsbrendog

        girardi did backflips when he saw this hullabaloo. this only helps him in his job security. military type crew cut style and demeanor with an obvious dont tell policy. come on, he’s screaming so louod for joy on the inside no matter what his buzzed head and eyes tell you.

        torre just completely destroyed the joe to joe comparisons and took so much weight off girardis shoulders

      • UNION YES.

        That’s fair. However, if we don’t decide to let this whole thing fade on it’s own, we would probably need a larger authority figure to tell Joe, this is some tacky gossipy tabloid shit and should be left out of baseball.

        Let it be Yogi. Take an old school/wise man approach and remind Joe that this doesn’t belong in baseball and what he did doesn’t fly. No one would dare question Yogi. Just a couple sentences is all you’d need.

        Joe isn’t this untouchable holy figure where the debate stops at his feet. He’s not bigger than baseball. None of that know all – end all shit. He’s wrong and needs to put be taken down a peg.

  • http://www.supertangas.com The man with 33 fingers

    Just to bring up something else, The Media has already broken the “don’t talk about the clubhouse rule”, so how on earth will they be angry about him doing it? (AROD, Barry Bonds, etc)

    Also, doesn’t Tom(the real author) get a HOF vote. So he would punish Torre and other sportswriters would punish Torre for the actions of one of their own?

    It all seems a little far fetched to actually think the Sports Writers would be angry about it, players on the other hand, I can see it pissing them off.

  • Sweet Dick Willie

    Would the Yankees be so spiteful as to issue #6 to a player THIS YEAR? And not a player with star potential, someone like Cody Ransom?

    It would be like Michael Corleone saying “he doesn’t exist to me.”

  • http://twitter.com/OldRanger Old Ranger

    Joe T. is a “No doubt Hall of Fame, pick”, I don’t think so.
    One poster asked; “Did Joe make the Yankees, or did the Yankees make Joe?” That is the question to be answered. When Casey Stengel managed the Yankees, the press was always saying things like; “Hay, I could win with that team, just put out the same line-up every day!” and “He’s sleeping in the dugout!” (sound similar to something we have heard before?).
    Casy won 5 WS in a row and 7 in 12 years. McCarthy 7 in 12 years, both of them are in the Hall. do we put Joe in with those guys…I don’t think so.
    Joe was in the right place at the right time…the Yankees made Joe T, in my opinion.
    Things to look at; Bull Pen use -/- Scott is the obvious one; use of the players he had -/- using only vets, even though they weren’t getting the job done, refusing to play the younger guys (until told to); Playing Bernie in CF even though Rains was a better CF’er…”because he has been our CF, before Tim got here.” these are only off the cuff examples.
    Again; the right place at the right time! We could also add; The right guy at the right time but, only for a short time. As the team changed, he didn’t and wouldn’t. We all know the Joba rules were set up so Joe wouldn’t destroy him by over use, why does one think it was put out for the news hounds to run with?

    • UNION YES.

      From Tom Gaffney (YankeeUniverseBlog): “…If you’re one of “Joe’s guys” and you’re perfect in the clubhouse, you have no issues that need coaching, you’re great. If you have some issues that require man management or strong leadership, you’re on your own. He made it clear early in the A-Rod fiasco that he wouldn’t take any steps to defend a player with issues or help him fit in. In fact, he seems to stare down his nose at them as to say, “what’s wrong with you?” If you’re a complete jerk, however, he’ll just apologize. He won’t confront you or attempt to bend you to his will for the betterment of the team. From what he’s saying in the book, he almost needs a perfect team of guys who are all great in the clubhouse and are all the same and have no issues at all. You know what, Joe, at some point, maybe you should have stopped complaining about these guys and started managing them. It’s your job to take guys that are struggling and make them fit in, make them a part of your team. This book makes it seem like he can only succeed when he’s given guys with perfect attitudes that have a boatload of talent. It’s not like he was given the ‘78 Yankees or anything. He had a few guys with issues, and instead of putting the arm around them and getting their head on straight, he seemingly just let them self-destruct.”

      Well-put.

  • KO

    Torre is a class act. He spent the last twelve years in New York, so that’s what he knows. He wrote about A-Rod, as if everybody doesn’t know already that A-Rod’s a space cadet and he wrote about Cashman’s two faces – that’s not even in the clubhouse. I’m not sure what his motivation about writing the book was, but he was probably annoyed about Cashman being given a pass on every single screwup he makes and wanted to set the record straight about how his situation was mishandled. As far as the Torre making the Yankees or the Yankees making him, it was obviously both. The Yankees couldn’t attract a decent free agent into New York for years until Torre came along and made it an attractive place for players to come in again – he negated the Steinbrenner affect. How quickly you all forget. On the other hand, Torre was obviously blessed with the great group of talent he had to work with. He was one of the most successful managers in history during his tenure in New York, working for the most incorrigable owner in history under the biggest press microscope in history – definitely a Hall of Famer.

  • UNION YES.

    Torre WAS a class act.

  • THE KID (WI)

    First I’ll say what he did for the Yankees as manager should be a enough to get him into the HOF.

    Then I’ll say that I just over lunch read the SI article with exerts from the book. It wasn’t very flattering for the TBT (Tampa Brain Trust). Then again it’s only Torre’s side of the story and there’s always two.

    If the whole book is like that, it’s ugly and makes Torre look petty. He may be right (I thought he deserved better), but I didn’t think he do it like this. I must still have been (and still maybe is) quite angry over the whole thing at the time the book was put together.

    • mike

      I agree yet his motivation & timing is odd, as he must have signed the book deal last year (as his team was charging to the playoffs) and the Yanks were spent.

      I suppose he thought he had the high-ground due to his success in LA, so i wonder if he would have written this book if the Dodgers were 72-90 and missed the playoffs??

    • http://twitter.com/OldRanger Old Ranger

      Again, I ask why? He won 4 WS in 12 years, big deal; Casey 5 in a row and 7 in 12 years (HofF), Joe McCarthy 7 in 15 years and 4 in a row (HofF)…do you think he stacks up with these guys? Because he won 4 of 12 he should be in the hall? Did you notice when they happened, all with in the first five years. Guys retired and traded etc…same manager, different results.
      I say again, “Right place at the right time” but, being in the right place doesn’t let one in the hall…if anything, the team should be in.

  • Joe Story

    According to Jason Strk

    Hard as Joe Torre tries to spin his thoughts about Alex Rodriguez, we’ve heard from multiple sources that when A-Rod was a free agent last offseason, Torre advised the Dodgers not to touch him.Hard as Joe Torre tries to spin his thoughts about Alex Rodriguez, we’ve heard from multiple sources that when A-Rod was a free agent last offseason, Torre advised the Dodgers not to touch him.

    OUCHHH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Steve S

    I dont think the book ties into the hall of fame argument, thats ridiculous. It ties into the fact that everyone thought this guy was sainted, but he is human and less than perfect. And he has a lot of character flaws. What I find funny about this whole thing, and what I think is funny, is that Torre’s best alleged attribute was his ability to “manage the clubhouse”, from the excepts in this book, he seems to only want to manage certain personalities.

    He somehow thought Alex Rodriguez was too much, a guy who gave up his position (and place in history) to come to this team, wanted to fit in desperately, is obsessive about his performance, works harder than anyone else and never gets in any real trouble off the field (i dont count banging madonna and divorce as trouble). And while he played for him he produced two MVP seasons, thats who Joe Torre wants to throw under the bus.

  • Pingback: Graig Nettles has Joe Torre’s back… « Zell’s Pinstripe Blog

  • Jay

    In his interactions with ownership, Torre was always nothing more than a big crybaby. It’s just that the media enabled him in New York

    And he always backed up the players against the management moneywise — which may sound like it’s what all managers do or seem like it’s what a manager has to do. However, (A) it’s not what Boston has been doing as they’ve thrashed our butts year after year with a much lower payroll, and (B) It’s a guaranteed prescription for mediocrity — especially in a world of revenue sharing and luxury taxes.

    Boston’s organization, up and down the line — from ownership to management to the coaches to the players to the fans understand that it’s not just about having the best players, but what you pay them.

    How do you turn Albert Pujols, Alex Rodriguez, Derek Jeter or anyone else from an asset into a liability? Simple. You overpay them. If you gave Albert Pujols a contract for 15 years at $50 million a year, he becomes an albatross around your neck. The Red Sox understand this up and down the organization — which is why an MVP player like Davd Ortiz signs a $13 million a year contract while the Yankees pay Giambi closer to $20 million for a longer term.

    Torre was as much of a liability or more than he was an asset. Good riddance!

  • Jay

    And when it’s time for a player to go because he’s not what he once was, the Red Sox understand that and behave accordingly. The Yankees don’t even without Torre. But Torre basically made it impossible for management to make hard, unpopular choices.

  • Rollingwave

    Statistically, Torre is actually one of the best players ever not elected i to the hall, anyway so the fact that he had a very long managing career in itself is reason enough to elect him.

    hell, as a player, Torre was worth more than Jim Rice, by a good margin

    WARP3 of Torre vs some of the less deserving HOFer.

    Torre: 101.2
    Rice: 80.2
    Puckett: 87.1 (holy shit Rice is even worse than Puckett)
    Scooter: 75.3

    Hell, Torre probably shoulda been a HOFer solely based on his player’s career already (albeit a border line one ). Gary Carter had 115.9, Posada’s at 87.1 , Po need at about 2 seasson worth of 05 like performance or another 07 like crazy year just to catch Torre.

  • Drew

    I have to say, that is the most pointless poll ever!!!

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.

      Thanks, Drew. The 1107 people who voted seem to disagree with you. That’s some constructive criticism you’ve offered up on a post that generated a lot of discussion on a slow January day.

  • Evan in NYC

    As we have already seen this year, the sports writers who induct members into thte Hall of Fame are stupid enough to let something ike this blind them from the fact that Joe Torre led the Yankees to 4 WS titles in5 years. This, overall, will not tarnish his reputation for the Hall, but it will tarnish his reputation amongst Yankee faithful. He will not have his #6 retired, he will not be welcome in the new stadium, and when he does get elected he WILL be wearing a Yankees hat to many dismay. Joe Torre ruined his Yankee legacy, not his baseball legacy.