Musings on Manny

Open Thread: Super Bowl XLIII
Yankees MtoM Catcher Prospect List

As the Steelers sealed the Super Bowl deal tonight, pitchers and catchers started eying their calendars. In less than two weeks, these players will head to points warm for the annual Spring Training rite. While their position player brethren will join them a few days later, a few key players remain unemployed.

Former Yankee Bobby Abreu is still waiting for a job, and Adam Dunn remains unsigned. But the one of the bigger on-field catchers of the Hot Stove League is still out there. After ensuring that options worth a combined $40 million wouldn’t be exercised, Manny Ramirez is still a free agent looking for work.

It’s surprising, in a way, that Manny is still out there. He’s a career .314/.411/.593 hitter with a 155 OPS+. Age hasn’t slowed him down too much, and had Mark Teixeira landed in Boston, he’d probably be Bronx-bound right now. But as fate would have it, Manny, persona non grata on the one team that could really use him, has suffered from the poor economy.

According to the latest reports, Manny may find that a two-year, $30-million offer is the best he can do. It’s hard to imagine Ramirez happy with that deal. It does seem to be all about the money for him.

So I have to wonder about the Yanks. I know the team is, according to GM Brian Cashman, done with their free agent signings. I know they want to get younger all around and better defensively. I know they have too many outfielders. Could the team really pass up Manny at $15 million per though? Travis at Pinstripe Alley pondered this question over the weekend, and I’m almost tempted to agree. Manny the bat is an appealing target, and if the price drops, who could say no?

Open Thread: Super Bowl XLIII
Yankees MtoM Catcher Prospect List
  • Pastafarian

    Only if Cashman read blogs ;_;

    • Pastafarian

      *would read

    • Manimal

      He reads Nomaas.

      • La Costco Nostra

        He probably reads the front page, which is where they state their ideas, anyway. I don’t imagine Brian Cashman lurking those forums.

    • BJ

      The original is actually fine, gramatically

  • Mike A.

    I’ve been anti-Manny from the start, so I’m not going to stop now. First, a 2/30 deal for Manny automatically becomes 2/42 because of the salary cap. Then you have to sort out an extreme outfield/DH logjam. They would either have to give Matsui away for a bag of balls and pay most of his deal (when’s the last time the Yanks made a deal and sent more than like, $2M the other way to cover a payer’s salary?) or deal one of Nady/Swisher without getting much of a return because Nady’s only got one year left and Swisher hasn’t done anything to improve his stock since the Yanks got him.

    Pass all the way.

    • Manimal

      I somewhat agree. We would have to trade two of Matsui, Nady, and Swisher for this to happen. I don’t think the money is the problem at all, 2/42 is fine with me.


      Nuff Said.

      • Jamal G.

        We wouldn’t have to trade two of Matsui, Nady and Swisher. If Matsui is dealt, then Manny takes over the DH spot with Swisher in RF and Nady on the bench – it’s the exact same set-up the Bombers have now.

        • Donald Duck

          Total agreement here. I do not get the whole we would have to trade two. Here is what we do. We add Manny, we subtract Matsui or Nady. If there is someway to get rid of Matsui then the team is actually more versatile than before because Manny can at least somewhat play the field something I do not think Matsui can do anymore.

          If we got Manny and got rid of Nady we lose some but not a ton of versatility. If we got rid of Swisher we would lose a ton of versatility. I think I said versatility too much.

      • Will F.

        Hey saying your scenerio works out. They are not going to go righty, righty, switch! Manny bats fifth contingent on the dream coming true!

        • tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

          They are not going to go righty, righty, switch!

          Sure they will. You generally want to break up lefties in your batting order (to protect them from LOOGYs), not righties. Not that big of a deal in this case.

          But, yeah, I’d order it the way you probably do, mainly because I’m more interested in getting two great OBP guys on in front of Manny the SLG machine, and because I think ARod probably needs more “protection” behind him than Manny does.

          LF Damon L
          SS Jeter R
          1B Tex S
          3B ARod R
          DH Manny R
          C Posada S
          2B Cano L
          RF Swish S
          LF Gardner L

          … I’m very aroused…

          • Jay CT

            Excellent point. Manny in that spot would be more of a monster then he is now. I don’t see a chance for Manny coming on board, but oh how sweet the thought is.

          • jim

            and why not keep matsui as well for the occasional

            CF Damon
            SS Jeter
            1B Teixeira
            3B Robriguez
            LF Ramirez
            DH Matsui
            C Posada
            RF Swisher
            2B Cano

      • Craig

        I’m not a baseball manager but I think the lineup would look like this…


        Like I said I could easily be wrong, and it likely doesn’t matter either way, but there would always be guys on base and the guys that A-Rod leaves Manny would certainly pick up.

        I’m fine with whatever we do. Unlike the Mets, the Yankees’ short term prospects and mid-long term plans have me confident and excited. Strictly from a baseball production standpoint, Manny is a significant upgrade over Matsui (and nothing against Matsui, Manny is just a monster). The only downside I really see, OTHER THAN “blah, blah, Manny quit on the red sox last year, blah” is that our goal of becoming a younger, more balanced, efficient team will take a small step backwards.
        Upside clearly goes without saying.

        • Craig

          That’s “prospects” as in their chance to compete for the World Series this year and next. Not “prospects” as in Hughes, IPK, A-Jax and Montero. Although I am excited about them also.

    • Jamal G.

      Ah, but to play devil’s advocate here, what about the DH situation in the 2010 season? You know that teams have to build a roster for the present and future – Manny Ramirez solidifies a gaping hole in the offense in 2010 when Hideki Matsui’s contract runs its course. You can’t argue that having a 3-4-5 combination of Alex Rodriguez, Manny Ramirez and Mark Teixeira wouldn’t be better for the team than having ARod, Teixeira and Hideki Matsui in 2009, and ARod, Teixeira and TBD in 2010.

      The overall cost of dealing Matsui for garbage and paying a significant portion of his contract is worth it if you are talking about acquiring a bat that has produced just one season with a wOBP lower than .400 since 1994 (2007: .375); and having the ability to solidify the DH spot in the 2010 campaign.

    • Mike R.


    • thisisthedavid

      Salary cap? I thought we don’t pay this year?

    • Artist formerly known as ‘The’ Steve

      Add the cost of dumping Matsui to the Manny contract. So if you have to pick up half of Hideki’s contract (6.5 mil) plus the luxury tax as you noted (40%x15 mil=+6 mil) now Manny costs you 27.5 mil for next season.

      Not so cheap anymore, huh?

      • TurnTwo

        why do people care about cheap?

        shouldnt people care about being as good as possible?

  • Carl

    How have the Mets not jumped on him? What is wrong with that front office? I personally would love to see him in the Bronx playing against Boston next year, big bat and sloppy defense included!

  • Eyeadapt

    If the Yankees d sign Manny you can probably expect half the teams in baseball to boycott the next season.

    • Artist formerly known as ‘The’ Steve

      That’s what we all said after the Yanks got Randy Johnson. Just hand them the WS trophy right now. How’d that work out?

  • jim p

    Manny’ll quit on you if he’s in the mood. Doesn’t matter what you pay him, doesn’t matter what his duty is. So how that works out, during the season, and how that affects the whole team, that’s part of the cost too.

    • Jamal G.

      Who knows, he might “quit” on us like he supposedly “quit” on the Boston Red Sox in July of 2008 when he hit .347/.473/.587 (which was his most productive month as a Red Sox in the 2008 season) and played – I believe – the third-most games of everyone on that team in said time period. Wait, I guess you must be talking about when he “quit” on the Red Sox in August of 2006 when he hit .378/.500/.635 and posted the second-best OPS (1.135) in this month of the entire season (May ’06: 1.167).

      Who knows, he might “affect” us and force us to win two of the next four World Series.

      • Artist formerly known as ‘The’ Steve

        Let’s not pretend he never quit on the Sox.

        -He didn’t play the last 5 weeks of 2006. With one of his “knee injuries”

        -He was found in a hotel bar with Enrique Wilson during a late season Yankee series when he claimed to be “too sick to play” with “pharyngitis”

        -The Rivera AB last year, and the reason why he was pinch hitting was he sat himself down against Joba (as he did the week before vs King Felix) because he claimed to have trouble with hard throwing righties.

        Here’s a gem from Wiki

        -August 24, 2005 – Ramirez, up with one out and the bases loaded, hit a ground ball but did not run down the first base line, resulting in an inning-ending double play. The Kansas City Royals rallied to tie the game, and eventually won in extra innings

        • tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

          Jamal’s not saying Manny won’t “quit” on us. Jamal is saying a Manny who has “quit” on us is still better that 99% of the players in baseball.

          The two scenarios in play here are that

          A) we get Manny, he’s focused and motivated and mashes the crap out of the ball for us, or
          B) we get Manny, he’s sullen, bitchy, despondent, and he “quits” on us and still mashes the crap out of the ball for us anyway.

          It goes back to my Rickey vs. player X scenario point about giving “Max Effort”: Rickey Henderson not playing hard and being in cruise control is still better than everyone else, so it doesn’t really matter if he doesn’t play hard. He’s still more productive than everybody else who’s out there busting their ass and giving 110%.

    • History Teacher

      Agreed, let Manny walk… look at Dunn.

      • tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

        If we’re going to add either Manny or Dunn, it’s going to be at a significant cost (since we’d likely have to eat most or all of Matsui’s 13M.)

        If we’re basically throwing 13M down the drain to upgrade our DH, I’d rather upgrade it all the way (Manny) rather than upgrade it half-assed (Dunn).

        They’re both good players and both better than Matsui, but Manny’s much, much, much better than Dunn.

        • History Teacher

          I agree Manny is better than Dunn…but Dunn doesn’t come with the possibility of destroying team chemistry.

          • Ben K.

            Ok. I think you’re being a bit hyperbolic here. Manny doesn’t destroy the overblown concept of team chemistry. His teams have made the playoffs 10 times, and he himself has two World Series rings. Not too many members of the Yankees right now have that many or more than that.

            • tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

              Manny Ramirez’s team’s W/L record, career:
              1993: 76-86
              1994: 66-47
              1995: 100-44 (WS appearance)
              1996: 99-62
              1997: 86-75 (WS appearance)
              1998: 89-73
              1999: 97-65
              2000: 90-72
              2001: 82-79
              2002: 93-69
              2003: 95-67
              2004: 98-64 (WS victory)
              2005: 95-67
              2006: 86-76
              2007: 96-66 (WS victory)
              2008: 91-72 (combined btw BOS and LA)

              Oh, that evil, evil clubhouse torturer. Look how much he’s destroyed the sacred team chemistry. David Ortiz and Jim Thome both sucked horribly because they couldn’t focus on hitting, they were so distracted by Manny’s evil, evil negative clubhouse presence.

              I’m sorry, but Joe Torre is probably now a bigger threat to “team chemistry” than Manny Ramirez ever was.

              • George Steinbrenner’s Cell Phone

                I cannot believe I can read the words ‘”Joe Torre is probably now a bigger threat to “team chemistry” than Manny Ramirez ever was” and actually agree with them. Wow.

                • tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

                  I know, it felt weird to write it… but it’s probably true.

                  I need to go take a shower.

                • Ryan S.

                  What a crazy place the world can be.

        • Craig

          I don’t think Dunn is better than Matsui. I would rather do nothing than replace Godzilla with the Donkey. At least Matsui is a true Yankee and you know he wants to do everything he can for us to win. Dunn is the biggest joke that someone who hits 40/HR a year can be. No Dunn please.

  • The Third Yip-Yip

    We don’t have to trade anyone if we get Manny. He DHs. Nady plays RF against LHP and some occasional PAs here and there. Matsui gets some PAs once in a while. Who cares if they’re on the bench? Matsui may be a veteran, but if he is incapable of the field, then he doesn’t play as much. I think there’s a good chance one of Damon/Matsui gets hurt anyway, so how could it hurt? And there’s nothing that says they can’t play Swisher or Damon in CF.

    • Tom Zig

      and have a $230 million pay roll? Wishful thinking my friend.

      • Craig

        It’s not all about having a logjam of corner OF/DH. We’d have to make room on the 25-man roster as well.

  • Old Ranger

    His bat is very tempting but, for my money, he is a cancer we don’t need. The economy has nothing (very little) to do with him not being signed yet…the point is, no one wants to have him on their team. There is a law in physics called “Cause and Effect”, good enough for the smartest number crunchers it’s good enough for me!
    I know some of you have written all sorts of excuses for Manny (I’ve read them) but, it is all superfluous rhetoric. The guy quit on his team…with the game on the line…not in any way, is that acceptable!

    • Ben K.

      Can you point to when he quit on his team? He was a beast in the playoffs with the Red Sox, and even when one would claim that he quit — last June, for example — he was stellar.

      I’m not saying I want Manny, but the idea that he’s a cancer is overblown. The economy too has a lot to do with the lack of offer here. Just ask Fred Wilpon about his good friend Bernie Madoff.

      • Old Ranger

        I must admit to the Fred Wilpon and Bernie Madoff deal slipping my mind…point given.
        I have never seen Manny stand at the plate with NO intention of taking a swing, have you? The day he stood at the plate against Mo and let thee strikes go by was the point I lost respect for him.
        Before you say; “I can’t read his mind”, let me point out…you are right but, I can read body language, just as you can. He laid the bat on his shoulder and didn’t even make a move…this against a pitcher everyone knows will throw strikes and make you hit or miss. Have you ever seen him not make an offer on pitches around the zone…I can’t remember when?
        Am I wrong on this…I could be, if I am, so are most of the people who saw the aberration of ineptness. I must admit, I have never liked him (he beat our brains out), but I had always respected his talent…until that day.

        • andrew

          I agree. He’s a dominant hitter, and that display really shows how far Manny is willing to go when he’s in a bad mood.
          However, if it comes down to 2/30, make the deal, worry about Matsui/Nady/Swisher later.

          • Ryan S.

            Despite the arbitrary, meaningless number that is “2009 payroll” (CC and Tex’s signing bonuses say hello), Manny seems like a sturdy financial investment. He’ll bring along increased merchandise sales and even higher rating projections on YES, and that should compensate for the extra money we’d have to fork over to get the guy, including the cash we’d need to eat for a Matsui trade. And if we win the World Series – and Manny would definitely assist in doing so, well, that obviously justifies just about all the moves we’ve made this winter. And c’mon, he would brutalize Boston 18 games a year plus mash the heck at of the ball all post season long.

            • tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

              You had me at “Despite”.

      • jim p

        I’m just going by what his teammates said when they were trying to get Boston to dump his historically exceptional bat. To improve their chances of winning.

        Curt Schilling for instance with statements like Manny Ramirez’s “level of disrespect to teammates” was “unfathomable.”

        And I did see with my own eyes batting against Mo in July that he had no plan to take any kind of swing at any pitches. IIRC, he didn’t even take those warm-up hacks between pitches.

        Then there was ’06 when he quit on the Red Sox also, according to a Boston sports columnist. Can’t get the hang of embedding a link here but read Boston’s Dan Shaughnessy, Nov 22 ’06

        He quit at the end of last season, and everyone in the Sox clubhouse knows this. The manager knows Manny quit. David Ortiz knows Manny quit. Curt Schilling knows Manny quit.

        • Craig

          Sidebar: curt schilling can eat hippo $hit. I hate him more than anyone in sports, maybe the world. Talk about losing respect for someone. The day he bitched about Travis Lee bunting to break up his perfect game was the day I lost all respect for him. And I don’t give a damn about the “bloody sock”. We gave that game to them, they didn’t take it.

    • JeffG

      I’m totally with Old Ranger on this. I have always hated Manny’s attitude and he has only gotten worse. Last year when he was rolling around in the outfield and had to dig the ball out from under his ass while laughing…
      I don’t even know what to say about that. I’d rather see the guy on another team.

      There is more to baseball than HRs…

      • Craig

        That was hilarious. Almost as good, if not better than diving to cut off Damon’s throw from the OF.

  • dan

    How much will Manny provide at DH over Matsui?

    CHONE projects 50 runs over replacement for Manny (135 games), and 26 runs over replacement for Matsui (125 games). So we’d be paying $42 million dollars (with luxury tax, as Mike said above) for 2 1/2 wins in each of the next two years. If you don’t like including the tax, then it’s still $6 million per win over the next two years, which doesn’t sound like a bargain to me.

    In isolation, Manny looks very attractive (not physically of course). But when the alternative is Matsui, I think I’ll stick with what he have.

    • dan

      what we have*

    • Ben K.

      I think you’re putting a lot of faith in CHONE projections. Mastui has played 51, 143 and 93 games over the last three seasons and now has two surgically repaired knees. He could have a monster season, but it’s more likely that he doesn’t.

      • dan

        143* in 2007, and we all know that his 2006 had nothing to do with being injury-prone. He broke his wrist. The last two years he’s played an average of 118 games. 125 isn’t so outrageous, especially if he never has to run around in the outfield.

    • Tom Zig

      hey a 2.5 win improvement is nothing to frown upon. In 2008 it wouldn’t have mattered much for us, but in 2007 2.5 more wins gets us the division. In 2009 I expect it to be a close race all the way down to the wire, 2.5 wins would be worth it in my opinion. I doubt we’ll sign Manny, but it sure would be a sight to see him in pinstripes. His first game back in Fenway would probably see ratings never achieved for a baseball game before.

  • Don’t do it!

    As tempting as this idea is, don’t do it Yanks! Aside from all the other good points made above (logjam, no way to unload hideki, payroll, etc.), let’s not forget that Manny fake-injured and half-assed his way out of Boston last year because he was unhappy to ‘only’ make $20 million over the next two years in extensions. He has made clear in the past that he will let it be known if he thinks he is underpaid, and he has also made clear that he cares more about his salary than his teammates, as he gave up on them last year. As a Yankee diehard, I obviously dislike the Red Sox, but Manny’s behavior last year was truly disgraceful. $15 million sounds exactly like the type of money he’d sign for, and then sulk his way into a bigger paycheck/trade/something to get his way regardless of what it does to the team who employs him. I predict any team that signs Manny for that amount ends up with a circus on its hands by mid-season.

    I think that’s exactly why he’s not signed yet. He thinks he’s worth more than the Dodgers’ $25 mil per year two year offer. No one wants to give him anything more than that (or even close to that now) but everyone is afraid he’ll be unhappy and wreak havoc if he signs for less, so no one even wants to make an offer.

    • tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

      It’s rather fortuitous that your handle matches the jist of your comment. Lucky you.

  • Tom Zig

    I think the world would explode if we signed Manny.

    Unless we could do a salary dump with Matsui’s entire salary for next year (not happening), I don’t see a way of doing this.

  • Rich

    Unless Matsui or Damon are traded,or alternatively, Nady, and Swisher are traded, I can’t seem them signing Manny because it would give too much ammunition to the anti-capitalist, small revenue, small expenditure, large accrual of equity faction that comprises much of MLB.

    Although Manny gained in the short term by extricating himself from the Sox, it clearly carried with it an immense cost in terms of how he is perceived by much of MLB. That in combination with his age and the contracting economy have formed the perfect storm that has limited his options beyond what had seemed within the realm of the possible just over a month ago.

    The Mets should do whatever takes to sign him at a discounted price, even if it means seeking outside investors.

    • tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

      “it would give too much ammunition to the anti-capitalist, small revenue, small expenditure, large accrual of equity faction that comprises much of MLB.” should never be a reason why we choose to do or not do something as a Yankee organization.

      We care about championships. We don’t care about the hurt feelings of the Cincinnati Reds fans.

  • E-ROC

    I think the Yanks would have to dump Matsui’s salary and try to get value back for Nady while having that particular trading partner offer something substantial prospects. I just don’t see a team out there willing to take on Matsui’s contract.I thought Seattle would be a potential suitor but they want to cut payroll. Ultimately, I don’t this will happen.

  • Bruno

    Manny the bat is an appealing target, and if the price drops, who could say no?

    I could, easily. This isn’t a video game. Guys like Manny and T.O. are not ones I want on my team.

    • Tom Zig

      Except that Manny does well under pressure. T.O. not so much.

      • Mike Pop

        Except that Manny does well under pressure. T.O. not so much

        Bullshit. What TO did in the SB was awesome.

    • The Evil Empire

      Oh please, you’re all acting like Manny gets into fights with his teammates, there hasn’t been conflicts between Manny and his teammates as far as I’m concerned, Manny = More Hits = More Points = More Wins = Playoffs = WS
      That’s all

      • dan

        I don’t usually care so much about character. But didn’t he fight Youkilis last year when Youk got angry after a strikeout? Manny got mad at him for caring too much.

        • Tom Zig

          He got mad because Youk is a whiney beyotch or just gritty depending on your locale.

          • dan

            I prefer #1

            • Craig

              They fought because youkilis kept looking at Manny despite his many requests not to. I’d be pissed too if I had to look at his ugly mug for more than .358 seconds at a time. I hope Joba keeps brushing him back.

        • Spaceman.Spiff

          He got mad because Youkilis threw a hissy fit every time he effed up regardless of what the team was doing. The press said it was because Youk kept getting angry when the team was winning making it look like he only cared about his own performance and not the team.

          “Other players have told Youkilis in the past about the situation, which makes him look selfish and that he is more worried about each at-bat than about the team. If Boston is winning easily, there’s no reason to throw objects all over the dugout because of a bad at-bat.
          “There was a meeting where the team let Youkilis know that many of his teammates were tired of his explosive reactions for each bad plate appearance. It became very bothersome … more so when the team is winning and it’s in first place. There’s not much room for individualistic attitudes.”

          per an ESPN article

          • jsbrendog

            wow this is interesting. i never knew this,….

            food for thought, :

            imagine manny with opaul o’neill….wow. powder keg

        • Will F.

          Youkilis is a scumbag! He licks up his own loads! True story!!

  • The Evil Empire

    Here’s my take on it from yesterday’s open thread
    “Since this is an open thread, here’s my view on the whole Manny thing:
    I know everyone on this blog hates to see “CASHMAN WHY ARE WE NOT SIGNING MANNY OMFG”
    But let’s look at this from the owner’s perspective, if you spent $400+ Million this off season, would another 75M hurt? I think Manny can be acquired for 3 years, 25M per. After all baseball is a business, face it, our goal is to win the world series in 2009. Anything short of a championship can then be deemed a failure, and if number twenty-seven isn’t acquired in 2009 then we can consider Teixeira’s, CC’s and Burnett’s salaries for 2009 a waste. No?
    The longer Manny stays unemployed, the more attractive he becomes.
    You have to look at this as an investment, we don’t have to pay him 60 of the 75M the first year, because after the first year is when he becomes the most valuable to US. In 2010, we lose Nady, Damon and Matsui. With Manny in the lineup, none of those players become a necessity. Manny can patrol LF and Swisher can be the Right-fielder, CF is open to whoever can perform better than the next man.
    After 2009, the Yankee payroll will shed:
    Matsui___13 Million
    Damon___13 Million
    Nady_____6.5 Million
    Pettite____5.5 Million
    Wang_____5 Million
    Molina____2 Million
    Melky_____1.4 Million
    That’s 46.4 Million, chances are we’ll pick some of these guys back up.
    But you get the point.

    In the end you have to also look at revenues, with Manny in the Bronx ticket sales will sky-rocket, merchandise sales of #99 are going to be huge, and your chances of winning will also increase.

    If we can get him in this bull market for only 3 years then I say “WHY NOT!?”
    2009 line up:
    Damon OF
    A Rod
    Manny OF
    Matsui DH
    Brett OF

    Brett* OF
    A Rod
    Manny OF
    Swisher OF

    I’m home sick this saturday, i guess you can tell”

    • Baseballnation

      Today is Monday which means yesterday was Sunday……

      The Yankees, I believe the Yankees will put a full press on Matt Holliday next offseason, and go into spring training with the idea of Austin Jackson in CF and Swisher in LF, which ofcourse fits in with their intent on getting younger + building from within.

      Now having Ramirez bat in the lineup would be great and dandy, but the idea that the Yankees need him for insurance for ’10 because Damon, Matsui, and Nady walk is just heresay. And if they do get Holliday which again I believe they will, then the neccesity for Ramirez is really minimal IMO.

      • The Evil Empire



        But like you, I am 100% on board when it comes to Holliday, that is, IF we can’t get Manny. Holliday equals a long term deal, and Manny’ll accept 3 years or less.

        • K.B.D.

          You have no clue what is going to happen to Holliday between this year and next. His home/road splits were terrible last year and theres a very real chance with the effect of Coors out of the picture he becomes an above-average (not elite) OFer. Manny is elite and will most likely be next year as he shows little to no signs of decline. Despite the age difference, I think Manny has less question marks about him than Holliday. Plus, if Holliday does perform, he’ll be looking for a huge payday, Manny can likely be had on a 2 year deal.

          • Tom Zig

            Not to mention signing Holliday will make us lose our first round draft pick. Signing Manny (who is a better hitter) will cost less in $$ and years, and will make us lose our fourth round pick.

          • Baseballnation

            Don’t insinuate that I don’t know his splits….I know them very well and can read up on Firstinning or Fangraphs just like you! It’s no secret the Yankees are eyeing Holliday for next offseason, and he’ll be the premier OF on the market most likely or at the very least, the most attractive as far as all the considerables are concerned. Manny’s bat is better than Holliday, but Holliday offers them a longer + younger investment.

            • K.B.D.

              In no way did I insinuate you didn’t know his splits. I made a statement of fact: his home/road splits were terrible last year. Anything else you took from that was your own.

              So you understand the impact his home field might have on his statistics, yet you aren’t somewhat worried about that?

              “It’s no secret the Yankees are eyeing Holliday for next offseason-” = a bland statement. Show me something concrete. His dad saying he’d love to Yankee doesn’t mean there exists a reciprocal relationship.

              Manny on a 1 or 2 year deal represents little risk compared to an 8 year you might have to hand a guy who had a career home BABIP of .384.

              • Baseballnation

                I look at wOBA before I look at BABIP, and yes his splits favor Coors, but he’s no average Joe on the road, and I think he can put up Abreu 2008 kind of numbers with 25 Hr’s in a Yankee uniform but that’s just my opinion. Obviously his price tag is the thing we can’t speculate but if it’s 20 million dollars per then I wouldn’t touch that with a ten foot pole.

                • K.B.D.

                  It’s not a stat pissing competition. Thats just an absurd BAbip any way you slice it.

    • Craig

      Evil Empire – Manny would DH, not play OF.

  • Dave

    Because of the new stadium, from what I’ve heard, the yanks are excused from luxury tax. Or at least pay a lower rate.

    • Baseballnation

      Wheres the link to this piece of info. Certainly is intersting.

      • dan

        An old ESPN magazine had something about this about 2-3 years ago. It was one of those articles they have at the beginning of the mag (biz of baseball kind of thing). I have no idea what it was called or how to find it, but I think Dave is right.

        • whozat

          I thought it was revenue sharing payments that they get a break on.

          Regardless, there is some kind of giving-money-to-other-teams payment on which the Yanks get a break this year, at minimum. Which one doesn’t really matter :-)

          • Artist formerly known as ‘The’ Steve

            Yeah, that’s my understanding as well. They get a break on Revenue sharing, not the luxury tax. Where they get to deduct the loan payments from the revenue sharing. For a high revenue team like the Yanks, that could cover the stadium building loans right there.

            Also, understand this, the Yanks get that break whether they sign Manny or not. Manny still costs them whatever his salary is, plus the cost of dumping Matsui, plus the Luxury tax. Which will be anywhere from 27-35 mil for 2009.

  • JeffG

    Manny already had an offer of two year 45M… you can’t expect the offer to drop below that with competition. Out of the price range. Cameron is the most likely outfield signing id Melky doesn’t make the club and Gardner sinks.

    • dan

      Cameron’s not a free agent. And the Dodgers pulled that offer a loooong time ago. I’m sure he’d take it now, but he thought he was getting 4 years so he turned it down.

      • JeffG

        Was wasted last night – by signing I mean pick-up via trade… Melky being out of options makes our CF situation more complicated but I expect that if the Brewers are out of the running come the trade deadline and we are struggling to produce from the CF spot – we’d pick up the remaining salary.

        As far as the 45M from the Dodgers I’d expect that they are willing to go that far if there is another bidder. The low bid as it is now is more than likely a result of no competition for his services.

        • Craig

          Can we please pretend that Mike Cameron has fallen off the face of the earth. Why, why, why is anyone, starting with our G.M. anxious to add interested in adding an older, more expensive – albeit, more powerful – version of Melky Cabrera?

    • K.B.D.

      Manny had the offer and it was pulled off the table by the offeror, not the offeree. I think you absolutely can expect the price to drop below 2/45 considering the way the market has shaped up to this point.

  • Phil in LA

    I could see them grabbing Dunn if the price becomes right, but I don’t think Manny will drop low enough.

  • Baseballnation

    I think Dunn goes to San Francisco which would be all types of great for them. I wonder of the A’s are kicking themselves thinking that if they waited longer for the market to Develope they could have signed Dunn instead of Giambi?

  • Drew

    Manny can help us achieve our goal. Also, we’ll be able to deal one of our outfielders for a prospect.
    The most important thing here, besides that he hates boston like me!
    Manny will help Arod, Imagine if Arod being Arod was a good thing.

    • Baseballnation

      I thought that’s what Teix did? I just don’t think the Manny thing is a pressing need as much as it is a desire for some.

      • Craig

        Tex will, or at least should, certainly provide protection for A-Rod. Manny would take that a step further, but I think Manny would have a positive effect on Manny as far as dealing with pressure and playing looser. Watching A-Rod is like watching someone play in a tuxedo. Adding Manny would at least help A-Rod take off the jacket and un-tuck the shirt….perhaps even lose the shoes. Once we got Teixeira I was content with our off-season. With that said, I like the pros of signing Manny a little more than the cons.

  • John

    Here’s an idea:

    Sign Manny and trade him for Matt Kemp

    • Artist formerly known as ‘The’ Steve

      I have another idea.

      Soybean futures.

  • Reggie C.

    The longer he sits out there, the longer the Mets must make this move. If its gotten down to the point where the Mets only have to outbid the Dodgers, Minaya must persuade the Wilpons to go for it. That offense needs another consistent threat, and grabbing Manny would be a better value move than signing the inconsistent Oliver Perez or oft-injured Ben Sheets.

    • tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

      The Mets strategic planning this offseason has been FEMAish.

      • Sweet Dick Willie

        Quote of the thread.

        And they’ve followed up their outstanding performance in N.O. with another sterling effort in Kentucky.

        • Craig

          The Mets have three nice bats right now. The remaining six are either question marks or sure bets to deliver nothing. You also have to mention the left-handedness of the lineup and you wonder why they haven’t been deep in the mix.

  • Mike

    “Manny may find that a two-year, $30-million offer is the best he can do. It’s hard to imagine Ramirez happy with that deal. It does seem to be all about the money for him.”

    Which is why I wouldn’t want him. How hard do you think this guy will be trying if he feels he got screwed on his deal? But then again, I guess you could say the same about how he won’t try since he got his payday. Only way is to avoid him all together.

    • Sweet Dick Willie

      Really. How would he feel making $15 mil on this club, w/ A-Rod, Tex and Jeter all making significantly more than him?

      If he was carrying the team, would it be beyond him to shut it down mid-season to prove a point? I obviously don’t know the answer to that, but it’s certainly something to consider.

      • tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

        True. To be honest (and it’s easier to say since it’s not my money), I’d probably feel better giving Manny a 2/40 than a 2/30.

  • mike

    Either the Yanks find a CF better than the two limp noodles they presently will play, or make a run at Manny.

    Heck, if Im Manny, I take a 1-year contract and wait for the Yanks to sign him….Im figuring Holliday will be persued by Boston, Anaheim, Cubs, CWS – all the big market guys, so i would much rather present myself as a shorter term option to Holliday.

    Play the Abreu route – just get signed, have a monster year, and gamble on a weaker class/ better economy next year

    • Tom Zig

      I don’t know if Boston will really jump into the Holliday sweepstakes. They have a full outfield as it is. They’ll probably just check in, see what the price is, make an offer to drive up the price. Peter Gammons will write the usual song and dance how Holliday is a prototypical Boston player “he is a good hitter, plays defense, respects the game, works hard, yada yada yada”. It’ll be essentially the Teixeira sweepstakes redux.

      • tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

        I think, if Holliday shows that he’s not a Coors Field mirage, the Sox would probably leap in with both feet. They still have tons of room under their maximum payroll threshhold, and David Ortiz may be legally dead by this coming November. I could see the Sox either letting Bay walk and signing Holliday (which is an upgrade no matter how you slice it) or signing both of them, moving Drew to DH, and writing off Ortiz as a sunk cost.

        • Ryan S.

          My guess is that Bay signs an extension with Boston during the season at some point and that they sit out on the Holliday race. I think Papi has enough gas in the tank to DH through 2010 but his 2011 club option is going to be an interesting situation.

        • Sweet Dick Willie

          David Ortiz may be legally dead by this coming November.

          From your lips to God’s ears.

          The RS will be interesting this year. If Ortiz and Varitek have bounce back years, they will probably be in the race all season. But if both of them continue to decline…. well, we can only hope.

          • Ryan S.

            I do not see ‘Tek bouncing back. I do see Ortiz being worthy of the DH position for the next 2 years, though I doubt he’ll over by in pre-2008 form again, and its far from a given that he’ll put up another 100/100 season.

  • Ryan S.

    I accidentally replied to a comment from 12 hours ago, meant to post this down here:

    Despite the arbitrary, meaningless number that is “2009 payroll” (CC and Tex’s signing bonuses say hello), Manny seems like a sturdy financial investment. He’ll bring along increased merchandise sales and even higher rating projections on YES, and that should compensate for the extra money we’d have to fork over to get the guy, including the cash we’d need to eat for a Matsui trade. And if we win the World Series – and Manny would definitely assist in doing so, well, that obviously justifies just about all the moves we’ve made this winter. And c’mon, he would brutalize Boston 18 games a year plus mash the heck at of the ball all post season long.

  • GG

    let’s just get Manny and win 125 like in ’98
    He should be our DH till retirement and go in as a Yank

  • My Geass Makes You My Slave

    We can’t “Let’s just get Manny cuz we can!!!!” We don’t have space on the 40 man and we’re going to need to trade our over populated outfield…
    Matsui is going to be very hard to trade, and I’d stick with Damon, Nady and Swisher. If we could I’d give up both Nady and Swisher but that seems very unlikely. Manny in NY won’t happen.

    • K.B.D.

      You make space on the 40-man for a player like Manny. I’m just saying, if the fear is losing a guy like Dan Giese (most likely to be DFA’d if somebody gets signed) it’s unwarranted. Dan Giese MIGHT be our long reliever. Manny WOULD be our 3rd, 4th or 5th hitter. Journeymen long relievers are a lot easier to find than HOF hitters still producing at elite levels.

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