Two sides to the A-Rod debate

The Gene Orza underbelly of the A-Rod scandal
A new opportunity for MLB.tv

Until this story moves forward either by a statement from A-Rod or further news developments, this should be our last post on the matter for a little while. But in the meantime…

Submitted for your approval are two opposite views on the A-Rod steroid scandal. On the one hand, Larry Mahnken at RLYW says that A-Rod is still a Hall of Famer. On the other, Peter Abraham calls this latest development a sure sign of the worst of times of baseball and doesn’t have many kind words for A-Rod.

As Monday morning dawns, where do you come out? Vote. Discuss.

{democracy:18}
The Gene Orza underbelly of the A-Rod scandal
A new opportunity for MLB.tv
  • UWS

    I think ol’ Pete A. is overreacting just a little bit.

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Joseph P.

      He is. Not as bad as Jayson Stark’s column, though.

      • usty

        Seriously. Worse than the Black Sox? They threw a WORLD SERIES. They ruined what is supposed to be the pinnacle of baseball. All of these high and mighty reporters need to get over themselves.

        • Bo

          I’d like to see all the articles from the Pete Abe’s of the world talking about juice from 1994-2000.

          I’d also like to see all the articles from writers talking about juice in regards to NFL players.

      • El Generalissimo

        When does Pete not overreact? The first time Girardi didn’t give him the scoop the second it happened, he went after him for no reason the rest of the year. I love Pete’s blog, because he has great access and a solid blog. But, when he interjects his opinion is when the problems start.

      • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

        Heh. I saw Jayson Stark’s column. Here’s my honest, reasoned, rational, calm response:

        F#$K YOU, JAYSON STARK, YOU STUPID LITTLE F#$KING DOUCHETARD. YOU ASSCLOWN IDIOT.

        Jayson Stark has now officially lost all benefit of the doubt and all respectability. I will now piss and shit all over his writings going forward into perpetuity for that asinine, disgusting, despicable traveshamockery of a “journalistic column”.

        F#$k you, Jayson. Turdface.

        • usty

          Haha. The only way the headline, “A-Rod destroys baseball history” would be true is if Alex went and fire-bombed the Hall of Fame.

          • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

            That headline is easily the dumbest thing written or said by anybody this millennium.*

            (*NBD – non Bush division)

  • MasterShake

    I think it will depend on what he does in the next 9 hears. If he continues to play at the same level (35+ hrs, .550+ SLG) for another couple years and doesn’t decline badly as he reaches his upper 30s and early 40s, I think he has a shot at the HOF. I read in an article, unlike Bonds, Palmiero, Clemens, McQuire, etc., Arod has a shot to prove he can do it without the drugs. 9 years left on a contract is a long time

    • jsbrendog

      agree to a degree. but based on the fact that it is being said that orza tipped ihm off to a test so he could clean out his system, how can we be sure that this is not happening in the future, or currently for superstar playerS? how do we the fans know that this was a one time thing?

      the seed of doubt has been planted and I for one am extremely skeptical going forward as well as looking back that this was just a “1 time thing”

      • UWS

        I find it interesting that we were tripping over ourselves in our rush to exonerate Andy Pettitte because he claimed it was a “one-time thing.” Yet ARod is an asshole, a cheater, and a black mark on the game of baseball. Double standard much?

        jsb, this is not directed at you personally, by the way.

      • Reggie C.

        Lets see Orza flatly deny that accusation first. A-rod of course will deny that angle as well. Can’t imagine Arod would willingly bring down the powerful Orza by acknowledging any pre-test warning.

        • jsbrendog

          maybe he should.

        • http://www.supertangas.com The man with 33 fingers

          How did he fail the test if he was tipped off……that just doesn’t make any sense.

          • http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.

            He reportedly failed one in 2003 and was allegedly tipped off to a 2004 test.

      • VOIII

        How do we know he used PEDs to begin with? Based on a story by an overzealous reporter chasing her 15 minutes of fame? Based on anonymous sources? Based on a test with two different lists one with codes assigned to the other with names, how do we know the codes and names weren’t confused or manipulated to implicate someone who would generate a lot of wealth for the supposed whistle blower? How do we know the tests are accurate and there are no false positives? Would you like to be tried based on this dubious evidence? Especially when there are 103 other names on a list and you are the only one targeted just because you are the highest paid at what you do?

        A-Rod may be an ass-hole. He may be anti-clutch and he may not be a “True Yankee”…But he is entitled to the same rights as anyone of us and anyone of those other 103 players implicated on a list that was supposed to be destroyed and never made public. This is an unjust witch hunt and it is ridiculous how many are joining A-Rod lynch mob.

  • usty

    I was thinking in 9 years, we’re going to have a hell of a lot more perspective on who used and who didn’t. So if he does put up those numbers for 9 years and never fails another test, someone would have to go, well, he did use steroids 16 years ago. Those 16 years would not be and should not be invalidated by what he did in 2003.

    At that point, I’m thinking we’ll have a lot better idea of just how many players were using as well.

    I also think as younger and younger writers push these nostalgia driven old guys, who have fairy tale dreams about how all the old players were such “good guys” who would never cheat by popping amphetamines or do anything but be blue collar working class types who happened to be good at baseball, out of the papers, the opinions will change.

  • http://deleted Al

    Can someone please explain to me the double standard for steroids? Absolutely NO ONE in football cares who is using steroids. Hell, Shawne Merriman won defensive player of the year after he tested positive! Why should we care about baseball but not football? If anything, steroids are far more dangerous for football players who try to add 50 pounds. Baseball players don’t need to add bulk like football players and can therefore use steroids slightly more “safely” than a football player would.

    Also, so many football players die young, why don’t we care about steroids in football? Or is it just another stupid “baseball purist” argument by old men who have some idealized, romantic notion of baseball as a pure, American sport?

    • http://asportsaddictneedsdivineintervention.blogspot.com/ E-ROC

      Football? Really? Stop it.

      • usty

        I think it’s a legitimate point. The NFL is praying that one big reporter doesn’t get smart and do a story going, “Hey…wait a minute…”

        • http://deleted Al

          Especially because steroids in football could literally kill someone. The size of football players today is plain dangerous. If someone gets hit the wrong way in the head or neck by a ‘roided up player, then what?

        • http://actyankee.blogspot.com Matt

          There was a thing on the bottom line on ESPN this weekend about Dana Stubbefield naming names and naming trainers in cooperation w/the Feds…they didn’t do one on screen story about it.

        • Chris

          Shawn Merriman tested positive in 2006, and played in the pro bowl that year. Not to mention that he was seriously considered for defensive player of the year. It’s not that no one knows about steroids in football, it’s that no one cares.

          • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

            Moreover, there was a story about the 1963 Chargers basically being a team full of juicers, and it was buried underneath the fold.

            (Although, if the 1963 Chargers were juicing, that kinda implicates everybody in all 4 major sports from the 1960’s to the present. ALL our sports heroes in ALL sports could easily have been juicing/cheating in some way, shape, or form. Not just baseball at the turn of the century: EVERYBODY everywhere is a suspect. Everybody.)

            • jsbrendog

              including you in fantasy footbqll. your title now has an asterisk.

              • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

                And my asterisk is HUGE, because I give my asterisk anabolic steroids to make it better.

                Perhaps you should have drafted a team full of bigger, stronger, more steroid ripped guys like I did. If you had, maybe you could have been a winner like me. Instead, you lost. Because you’re a loser.

        • http://asportsaddictneedsdivineintervention.blogspot.com/ E-ROC

          If you want to go dig, I’ll probably find something as Dana Stubbefield will be giving names to prosecutors in the Barry Bonds perjury case. Everytime something happens in baseball that is steroid related, someone brings football up because no one is talking about those players taking steroids. Where is the NHL? How about the NBA? MLS?

          • Bo

            Juice makes athletes bigger, stronger, faster, and able to push themselves more. What pro athlete in any sport isn’t on something?

            You have stories about most members of the 70’s Steelers being on juice. You have 4 Panther players being nabbed during SB week! You have def players of the yr getting suspended mid season!

  • Matt L

    Much like I would vote for Bonds, BigMac, Clemens, Sosa, Arod also gets my vote. These are all great players that deserve recognition for there performances on the diamond. While the players “cheated” the owners deserve as much of the blame, for completly turning their backs to the problem, they could have stomped out steroids decades ago if they wanted to.

    • Sweet Dick Willie

      While I don’t want to give the owners a complete pass, they needed the help from a non-cooperative Players Association, and they didn’t receive it.

  • Reggie C.

    So one suspect year (’03) can erase everything Arod did in his Mariners years and now the past couple of seasons of active drug testing? What places Arod apart from all the other suspected needle heads is the amount of career he’s got in front of him. Memories of fans get shorter with every .580 slugging season he puts together.

  • http://actyankee.blogspot.com Matt

    Bonds, Clemens, Palmiero, Rodriguez, and Sosa would all get my vote.

  • http://www.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#/group.php?gid=43434432275 Ace

    I would not vote for ARod for the hall of fame. He took an illegal drug that enhanced his performance and affected the outcomes of games. ARod tainted the actual games.

    To be clear, I would vote for Peter Rose because, as far as I know from what I have read, he didn’t do anything that would affect the game on the field but rather his wallet. Peter Rose did not cheat the game by gambling on it, again, as far as I know from the materials I have read.

    Anyone who took anabolic steroids to affect what they did on the field is immediately taken out of hall of fame consideration in my opinion.

    • http://actyankee.blogspot.com Matt

      Would you vote for Joe Jackson?

    • Chris

      Would you vote for Gaylord Perry for the HOF? He’s admitted to cheating for most of his career.

    • Jay

      So you don’t think that a manager who wagered on the outcome of his team’s games had any bearing on the outcome on the field? Isn’t that a little naive?

      Personally, I would vote for Rose, because he deserved it as a player. I would also vote for players from this era who have been involved in steroids. How are steroids different than bowls of amphetamines in clubhouses? They both enhance performance and neither was banned by baseball at the time. Speaking of performance enhancing, doesn’t it enhance performance when the team administers cortisone shots so that a player can play? Can someone explain to me where exactly the moral line is?

      • jsbrendog

        So you don’t think that a manager who wagered on the outcome of his team’s games had any bearing on the outcome on the field? Isn’t that a little naive?

        pete rose NEVER bet on hsi team to lose.

        • steve (different one)

          pete rose NEVER bet on hsi team to lose

          so what? say this was Girardi: he was betting on the Yankees to win, and b/c of that, he used Mo for 2 innings one night to close out a 3 run lead.

          then Mo was unavailable the next night, and the game was lost in the 9th.

          i agree that betting on your team to lose is WORSE, but denying that you can’t affect the integrity of the game b/c you bet on your team to win is silly.

          • Count Zero

            Exactly — beat me to it. Unless he bet on his team to win every single game, if affects the integrity of the games he managed.

            What Rose did was worse than anything in the history of MLB except for the Black Sox scandal. He should never, ever, ever get in IMO.

            • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

              What Rose did was worse than anything in the history of MLB except for the Black Sox scandal. He should never, ever, ever get in IMO.

              What Rose did as a manager was horrible. What he did as a player is separate, IMO, and I’d put him in in a heartbeat. He was a great, great player.

    • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

      Anyone who took anabolic steroids to affect what they did on the field is immediately taken out of hall of fame consideration in my opinion.

      I can only assume that this statement applies to all performance enhancing drugs (since they affect what you do on the field), and thus you feel the same about greenies, and therefore you think the Hall should be burned to the ground because 90% of the greatest players in baseball used amphetamines.

      • Klemy

        …and thus we rebuild the HOF on the likes of the Enrique Wilsons and Luis Sojos of the world. I can’t wait to attend!

        • kSturnz

          seriously, if we don’t know about them taking steroids, it’s fine? they already have it called the ‘steroids era,’ now let the great players in.

          • Bo

            Where is the proof that Cal Ripken didn’t juice? or Maddux. The guy pitched at 40 and did well. Wheres the proof on Eddie Murray, Sandberg, Rickey Henderson? How do we know they’re all clean? If football players were doing it circa 1965 why wouldn’t old time MLB players?

  • Rob H.

    Cheating has always gone on in baseball in one form or the other. Whether it was scuffing the ball, using vasoline, or whatever else pitchers did in the older days, to using corked bats or whatever hitters were doing, the fact is that cheating has always been part of the game. There are players in the Hall of Fame who cheated during their careers in one way or the other, whether it be pitchers or hitters. People joke these days about how those older players would cheat by doing things to the ball to get more break on it or whatever. However with Steroids we are outraged and can’t believe that someone would do that. Steroids, to me, is just a more advanced form of cheating that is a part of the long list of ways to cheat in baseball. As far as I’m concerned, steroids and other PED’s didn’t help a player with hand-eye coordination, throwing the ball for strikes, catching the ball, etc. That stuff players had to rely on their talent. A-Rod, just like Bonds, should be in the hall of fame and these holier-than-thou sports writers who were part of the problem when all this was going on need to get off their high horses, IMO.

    • http://www.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#/group.php?gid=43434432275 Ace

      Scuffing the ball,/using too much pine tar/corking a bat and injecting illegal drugs into your body seem like apples and oranges to me. I know both are technically “cheating” but an umpire can easily identify a scuffed ball and make a decision on how to proceed whereas he can’t take a urine sample from ARod after he hits a 500 foot home run.

      Also, and this is just my opinion, going to the lengths of shooting your body with steroids and taking a clear to beat a drug test is such a remarkably contrived act that it is so much more abominable than scuffing a ball or corking a bat.

      • http://deleted Al

        what about using amphetamines? Like every baseball player ever did.

      • Chris

        I agree there is a difference.

        If you’re caught scuffing a ball or corking a bat, there is a defined penalty and you’d be ejected, suspended etc. If A-Rod (in 2003 or earlier) injected himself on the field in front of the umpire, then there wouldn’t be a penalty.

        • http://www.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#/group.php?gid=43434432275 Ace

          Well, he would be arrested. That’s a penalty.

        • DCStack

          In terms of the integrity of the game there is no difference between scuffing the ball and steroids. Both are outside of the rules. Both are used to gain an advantage during the game. Just because a scuffed baseball is easier to detect does not mean there is more integrity attached to it.

          • Jay

            Actually, pre-2004, steroids weren’t even outside of the rules.

      • http://www.supertangas.com The man with 33 fingers

        So the effort to cork and conceal a bat is not just as contrived and abominable?

        Thats not a spur of the moment thing you know…

    • http://actyankee.blogspot.com Matt

      “these holier-than-thou sports writers who were part of the problem when all this was going on need to get off their high horses, IMO.”

      In the words of Ethan Edwards, that’ll be the day.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Searchers_(film)

  • Patrick

    I think Jeter released A-Rod’s name in the hopes that he’d hide forever and Jeter could take over 3B instead of moving to the OF. Or maybe he just got tired of hearing about his contract situation in hte media.

    Kidding, of course. Just trying to lighten up the mood.

    • El Generalissimo

      I, for one, enjoyed it.

  • WhizzoTheWize

    They all go in or none goes in.

    As far as Whizzo knows, even Skippy was roiding it up.

    Whizzo doesn’t know. Whizzo doesn’t care.

    Hit the ball. Catch the ball. Throw the ball.

    • skeleton coat

      Whizzo is wise indeed.

    • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

      As far as Whizzo knows, even Skippy was roiding it up.

      I want a new RAB t-shirt that says nothing but the words “Your favorite sports star used steroids.”

  • Matthew

    I think you can still vote ‘Yes’ and still feel that he cheated…

    • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

      Correct. He cheated, and it’s cheating… but it’s not really cheating if everyone is doing it.

  • Will

    There should be an undecided column in that poll. I, for one, am reserving judgment until A-Rod speaks. It’s only fair that more light be shed on the situation before all these writers assume something.

  • mike

    baseball for a second – does anyone think Sheets can be signed to a Leiber-type deal at this point?

    apparently he will be out until the late summer…that could parlay into either a late-season boost, or worst case a replacement for Pettite next year

    • UWS

      1. You’re about to be pistol-whipped both for saying “Leiber” and for being off-topic:

      http://riveraveblues.com/2009/02/open-thread-t-keps-random-yankee-facts-7696/#comment-276074

      2. We already have a replacement for Pettitte. His name is Phil Hughes.

      • mike

        1. Impressive recall, and I like pain…

        2. Understand Sir Phil is the plan, but I am assuming he will get plenty of opportunities to get his starts with AJ and Joba’s histories and limitations both this year and next

        3. I think we have beaten this topic like baby seal, and until ARod says anything ( likely not until he sees the SI article himself and Boras fact-checks it) i cannot imagine anyone adding anything to this topic

  • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

    Oh, man, what a relaxing weekend I had. Anything interesting happen in the news while I was gone? No? Nothing?

    Alright, awesome. Can’t wait for pitchers and catchers.

    • http://asportsaddictneedsdivineintervention.blogspot.com/ E-ROC

      Its a boy! Tiger Woods is a daddy all over again. I bet ya didn’t know that. HA!

      • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

        Re: Tiger Woods… if Selena Roberts tells me tomorrow Tiger has been taking steroids for the past 10 years, I won’t be surprised, I won’t care, and it won’t change my opinion of him at all.

        • Arin

          He doesn’t need steroids; he has Gatorade TIGER.

    • Nady Nation

      Serious thoughts on the matter? The more I think about it, the more it really saddens me as a baseball fan. I never really cared for A-Rod, but the fact of the matter is I respected his immense talent and definitely was looking forward to him taking the HR record back as a “clean” player in this generation marred by PEDs. Now all that is gone, and it’s just a reminder of how tarnished this era which I grew up with, being 24 years old, truly is. Very upsetting in my eyes.

      • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

        Serious thoughts on the matter?

        You got it, here they go:

        The more I think about it, the more it really saddens me as a baseball fan.

        Not me. It makes me happy as a baseball fan. It makes me happy that more people are realizing how widespread and pervasive this steroid problem was. It’s the only way to accept as rational, grown-up adults that steroids were so pervasive and condoned by all parties involved (players, owners, team officials, trainers, etc.) that they were a part of the fabric of the game and thus, it’s irresponsible and downright ludicrous to single out and blame any one player for doing them. Too many baseball fans have been putting their heads in the sand ostrich-style and pretending that “Oh, it’s just that evil jerk Roger Clemens, my favorite player would never do that and thus, once Roger’s gone, we can go back to our holier-than-though naivete.” No, you can’t. It was everywhere. That makes it everyone’s fault, and no one’s fault. Wag your finger, move on, and put these great players in the Hall because they deserve it, because they’re great players.

        I never really cared for A-Rod, but the fact of the matter is I respected his immense talent and definitely was looking forward to him taking the HR record back as a “clean” player in this generation marred by PEDs.

        That’s because we’re constantly asking baseball (and all our sports) to be somehow fundamentally different from life. We prop up our sports and heroes as paragons of virtue that we can look up to, that are somehow cleaner and better and more wholesome and blah blah blah… it’s romanticism, it’s self-deluding fantasy. As I say over and over again, Ty Cobb stabbed a guy. That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be awed and amazed by what he did; that doesn’t mean you can’t take pleasure in watching his athletic prowess. It just means, if you go into it expecting greatness and purity and perfection, you’re always going to be disappointed because you’re dealing with human frailty and the non-genteel ends-justify-the-means brutality that is always the accompaniment to raw economic or competitive game theory. If you’re ever disappointed by the actions of a team or an individual sports figure, it’s because you were holding them to an impossibly high standard. That’s nobody’s fault but your own.

        Now all that is gone, and it’s just a reminder of how tarnished this era which I grew up with, being 24 years old, truly is. Very upsetting in my eyes.

        If it’s any consolation, every era ever is always tarnished by something or some phenomenon. People constantly bemoan the times they live in as not as good as the clean, pure days of old. It’s always bullshit. Things happen, people react to them, and then times change correspondingly. Stop making mountains out of molehills. Don’t listen to asstards like Jayson Stark.

        • Nady Nation

          That’s fine, and I get where you’re coming from. But I also don’t think I’m asking baseball players to be “fundamentally different in life.” Asking baseball players not to cheat is no different than I would ask an accountant to not commit fraud, or asking a wife or girlfriend to stay loyal and not cheat on you. I still hold everyone in any walk of life to that type of standard, and I’m still disappointed at what this era has become. Obviously people make mistakes and you learn from them and move on, but that doesn’t mean I still can’t be disappointed that the mistakes were made to begin with.

          • Whozat

            The point is it’s not a mistake. Pro sports have systematically tacitly approved of these behaviors for 40+ years. And you’re disappointed that your heroes couldn’t swim against the tide.

            • Nady Nation

              In no way am I absolving ownership, the union, or Bud Selig of any blame, it’s everyones fault, and I apologize if it came off like I was strictly blaming players. And you’re right, this probably extends to other sports as well. But please, don’t mock me with the “heroes” bullshit. I don’t see why I should be ridiculed for being disappointed that these players cheated. Some, after all, didn’t cheat.

              • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

                I don’t see why I should be ridiculed for being disappointed that these players cheated. Some, after all, didn’t cheat.

                And, if it’s true that performance enhancing drugs do actually enhance performance, since performance enhancing drugs weren’t tested for, I can easily argue that those players who didn’t “cheat” are bad players who let their teams down by not choosing to make their performance as good as it can be to help the team win.

                You say Don Mattingly should be applauded for not taking steroids? I say maybe we should be disappointed in Don Mattingly for not taking steroids when they could have helped his career and won us more games.

          • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

            Asking baseball players not to cheat is no different than I would ask an accountant to not commit fraud, or asking a wife or girlfriend to stay loyal and not cheat on you.

            Imperfect analogy for two main reasons:

            1) Steroids weren’t illegal, per se, in baseball for most of the timeframe discussed here. Steroids weren’t tested for, and there was no penalty for taking them. So, even if they were banned, they weren’t against the law; they were against a law that wasn’t enforced. What ARod was doing was more akin to a gay couple in Mississippi living together in violation of antiquated cohabitation and sodomy laws: they may be “illegal” actions, but in name only, since they’re never enforced. In terms of comparing ARod to an accountant who cheats on your taxes, taking steroids would be like claiming extra business expense reimbursements or claiming tax credits for education because you took a free survey course at the Learning Annex: it’s not necessarily a violation of the law, it’s a grey area subject to interpretation. Most accountants (especially good ones) find and use this grey area as much as possible to get their clients the most financial benefit possible. There’s a difference between clear fraud and debatable accounting claims, and the way steroid use was treated in major league baseball up until 2006 definitely classifies more as grey areas of dubious logic than out and out cheating.

            2) Your accountant and your girlfriend aren’t in purely competitive industries, per se, like MLB players are. Your girlfriend only has to be good enough of a girlfriend to make you happy; if she’s cute and nice, you’re not going to automatically dump her just because some other girlfriend went out and got a boob job and went to charm school and thus, represents an incremental increase in value. You and your girlfriend are not competing with other couples for the title of “hottest couple”; that’s not the reason your partnership exists. Baseball players are more prone to “cheating” than accountants are because they’re in an industry that only rewards winning, and incremental increases designed towards improving chances of winning are therefore prized much more highly in that arena. So, your girlfriend remaining the same while other girls are artificially enhancing their looks does not necessarily decrease your girlfriend’s ability to be a good girlfriend, but ARod choosing not to juice if everyone else is jucing (assuming juicing actually helps performance) makes him a worse player by default because he is placed in constant and more direct competition with larger consequences. There’s more of a “keeping up with the Joneses” syndrome in sports than in other arenas of life, and thus, any “cheating” should be more excused due to the higher stakes involved.

            • Nady Nation

              Those are some good counterpoints. This is obviously not a cut-and-dry issue, but I do appreciate your opinion. Oh well, I guess I’ve only really been thinking about this so much b/c this is such a down-time in sports. I can’t wait for actual baseball to be played.

              • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

                THAT IS HOW YOU DEBATE!!!!!!

  • Sweet Dick Willie

    Can we have a wing of the HOF dedicated to the Steroid Era? That way, they all get in, but they are segregated from the rest.

    • jsbrendog

      ietc

    • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

      Can we have a wing of the HOF dedicated to the Steroid Era? That way, they all get in, but they are segregated from the rest.

      Are we gonna have a greenies wing, a cocaine wing, an expansion wing, and a openly refused to play against black guys wing as well?

      • usty

        Haha…if they ever open up the Joe DiMaggio punching Marilyn in the face exhibit, I’m visiting Cooperstown.

      • Sweet Dick Willie

        Will the cocaine wing have free samples? Not for me of course, just wondering.

        • Bo

          Coke is the anti performance enhancer. We should put Doc and Darryl in just for the fact that they had those #’s on blow. Straw would have hit 600 homers if he kept his nose clean.

  • usty
    • skeleton coat

      That article explains everything.

      He just wanted to look sexy for his introduction to the Yankees.

    • Jay CT

      Great article. Well done

    • Gio

      Is that guy serious? His argument in a nutshell is that since Primobolan is a pill form, not injections, and because ARod doesn’t look like Bonds/McGwire/Sosa, it’s not the same. Wow. Ever think that maybe the Primobolan is the reason he never turned into a behemoth like Bonds? It’s a drug that puts on lean muscle so you don’t end up looking like the Hulk.

      • usty

        What did you read? That wasn’t his argument at all. The only time pills were mentioned was in the caption that pointed out he could’ve taken pills but everyone likes to assume it’s injections because no one researches anymore.

        He was saying that primobolan is like ripped fuel that works and most likely was negligible in affecting A-Rod’s performance because it’s a “weak” steroid.

        • Gio

          So why does the pills v. in jections argument hold any weight whatsoever?

          • usty

            That wasn’t his argument. He was making a joke. The exact caption is “Primobolan is also available in pill form, but it’s way more fun to assume A-Rod used needles isn’t it?” to show the absurdity of the media covering this who doesn’t even do their research.

          • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

            It doesn’t. What usty was saying was, the pills vs. injections thing was like 7% of the article, and the other 93%, the important part, is that:

            A) Steroids may not enhance your actual performance on a baseball field.
            B) Even if steroids do enhance your actual performance on a baseball field, the particular steroid that ARod took is one of the weakest steroids around and it probably had absolutely no effect on him whatsoever.
            C) Because of A and B, all of this story is a load of hot sensationalist bullshit that is full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
            D) Jayson Stark is a chowderhead asstard buttmunch buffoon punk motherf$#%&er.

            (I may have paraphrased that last one. But that’s the general gist of the article.)

            • Gio

              So then the same rationale (steroids may not enhance ya player’s performance) applies to McGwire Bonds and Sosa as well as ARod, right? My point is that this clown writer sounds like a huge homer who is biased in favor of ARod but probably bashes the aforementioned three juicers. Although I do agree with your point in part D) of your post.

              • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

                So then the same rationale (steroids may not enhance ya player’s performance) applies to McGwire Bonds and Sosa as well as ARod, right?

                Absolutely. And, all of them get HoF votes from me. Steroids is simply not a good reason to exclude anyone freom HoF consideration. There’s too much evidence that it doesn’t artificially enhance performance, there was too many players using it all at once to differentiate who “cheated” and who didn’t, and there were to many other similar altering factors in other eras (like greenies or the segregated era) that are excused/condoned to allow this one singular phenomenon (steroids) to somehow be impermissible.

  • Jay CT

    OH WHO CARES! Seriously, no one can say they are suprised. Does any of this even matter anymore? The days of people growing up because they want to win a World Series and get into the Hall of Fame is over. Everyone grows up hoping to be the next ARod, in other words, the next 27.5 million a year man. I am not saying that this shouldn’t be discussed, but its been like 3 days now straight. COME ON!

  • Patrick

    By the way, before talking about Bonds, Rose, A-Rod or McGuire, shouldn’t there be a push for Shoeless Joe Jackson to get in the Hall?

    • A.D.

      ….or Pete Rose

  • pat

    Put me in the camp of people who dont give a sh*t about steroids anymore. Bud Selig was fully aware of the existence of performance enhancing drugs but turned a blind eye to them because they werehaving a positive impact on the economics of the game. Now people want to dig up the past and persecute players for taking steroids despite the fact that many of the drugs weren’t illegal at the time AND the head of the league was letting them flourish for the perceived “good of the game”. I blame Selig, he is the most overlooked culprit in this whole fiasco. If he had just put his foot down when they first became prevalent none of this stuff should have happened. For that very reason I could care less about steroids. The whole witch hunt is flawed at the core.
    People hate arod and the yankees, now their hatred is taking the form of faux nostalgia and outrage that someone violated their “sacred” game. Its’ all just bullsh*t to me.

  • My Geass Makes You My Slave

    I bet the only reason why they found out A-Rod took steroids is because people want to ruin his career somehow or someway and they have to rely on a scandal that occured in 03…Stupid biased reporters…

  • http://www.supertangas.com The man with 33 fingers

    Arod is completely screwed in this.

    Its a no win situation for him.

    One innocence scenario could be that Arod was using an EAS supplement, a tainted one and failed.

    What recourse or what could he say that would change perception?

    Too many questions on this one. Like how is it a unanimous test could have a name linked to it?

    http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=Aii5JKwQwbkZGabl.pYz6mARvLYF?slug=beforeyoucondemnarod&prov=tsn&type=lgns

    What was the possible reason to leak this now?

    And then this creates another whole problem for the justice system….if sworn and confidental testimony and facts can be leaked by Justice Department, how can anyone trust them now?

    • skeleton coat

      Supertangas.com is officially my favorite website in the history of the internet.

      • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

        Cosign.

        You need an English language version, though. (Not that I’m really reading the words, but still, on the off chance I ever decide to read the words, it would be nice.)

  • mike

    not that Im hating on Selena Roberts, but being from LI i cannot forget the war-dance she did against the Duke Lacrosse players, when she made Al Sharpton/ Tawana Brawley look reasoned.

    even if her ARod story is 100% accurate, she is hardly the standard of intrepid reporting which the media is making her out to be – she has a serious stain on her credibility and professionalism, and while I do not advocate shooting the messenger, her “inside sources” for the Duke case are now disbarred and embarassed.

    • steve (different one)

      she’s a piece of shit, no question.

      unfortunately that doesn’t mean she is wrong, even if her motives were largely selfish, as she is writing a controversial book about A-Rod (get ready, as soon as this dies down, rumor has it she is going to openly question his sexuality), and she has been determined to bring him down for years for some reason.

      she wrote that ridiculous hatchet job a few years ago about A-Rod’s investment properties.

      she’s a vindictive pile of shit, but again, she has enough sources to justify this story.

      • steve (different one)
      • whozat

        You know, ARod being gay would kind of explain a lot. Having to live a lie every single day could definitely lead him to exhibit a lot of the behaviors that get attributed to him. The not “fitting in” easily with the guys, the insecurities, the vanity. The “meticulously crafted image” too.

        • steve (different one)

          yup. not saying he is or isn’t, but it would make sense on some level.

      • Sweet Dick Willie

        she’s a piece of shit, no question.

        Not saying she isn’t, but how is this not worse than calling her a slut, which a commenter on the previous thread did?

        I, for one, have a special place in my heart for sluts, but absolutely no tolerance for pieces of shit.

        • steve (different one)

          “slut” implies that i know her and am speaking about her on a personal level.

          “piece of shit” means that i have no respect for her as a professional journalist, which, if you followed the Duke LaCrosse thing, you would understand.

  • LosingOurHeads

    We know that 1. MAYBE Arod failed ONE drug test in 2003. We know that 2. MAYBE Arod was tipped off to testing later on. We also know 3. He did have a lot of clean drug tests as a Yankee and no accusation that he was being tipped off.

    I can almost guarantee that 2 will never be proven. As for 1, who knows what that was about? We have heard that there were MANY false positives on that list.

    I am aghast at the level of anger and hyperbole thrown at Arod for what might amount to completely nothing. Apparently number 3 is worth nothing.

    The complete lack of perspective on this thing is incredible. It HAS to be because it’s Arod. OJ lopped off two people’s heads and managed to be treated fairer than Arod.

    • steve (different one)

      here’s the problem with that reasoning: OJ was treated better than A-Rod when people still thought A-Rod was clean.

      • skeleton coat

        Wouldn’t it be funny if Selena Roberts got the wrong Rodriguez?

        • Sweet Dick Willie

          I think Alex would fail to see the humor.

        • Chris

          Imagine the size of the libel lawsuit that A-Rod could file if this turned out to be the case.

          • skeleton coat

            I would love it.

            Makes me giggly with schadenfreude.

  • MattG

    Here’s a thought: Steroids is on the other side of an arbitrary line of supplements, a line that was not set in stone until 2004, and as such, was vulnerable to the vagrancies of the work environment. Comparisons to cheating–which would be scuffing a ball or manipulating a bat–aren’t apt.

    I just do not think people are considering the environment in which this ethical dilemma exists. These are young men, faced with unimaginable competition, trying to play a very difficult game really well, and as such they are continually turning to the many people around them that are seemingly trying to help them. They have been told from a really young age how to train, what to eat, and what supplements they need to take. They are highly motivated to improve, and therefore very vulnerable to crossing an amorphous line for which they are too close to see. It is incredibly reasonable to assume that many of these young men will push it a little too far.

    This is not unlike so many other ethical dilemmas young people face: drinking and driving, teenage pregnancy, drug use and so forth. The line between right and wrong is not as clear as a scuff mark on a baseball. These young men need more organized guidance–their equivalent of MADD and DARE programs. Because they are professionals, receiving huge signing bonuses and salaries, does not make them anymore equipped to cope with the situation, and make the right choices.

    Baseball and the union did them all a horrible disservice by allowing them to their own devices. What should’ve happened already is the PA should’ve stood up and said, “We ALL are guilty. Let’s do something to change this culture in sports and protect our young athletes.”

    And what is really a horrible disservice is that this report, A-Rod being one of 104 names, released in the three-week stretch between the super bowl and spring training, is not meant to bring us truth and justice–it is meant to sell newspapers. Nobody cares–not even the writers that pile their drivel. In fact, what truth should disgust us more?

  • John NY

    A-Rod has two ways out:

    Admit it….truthfully and give details on why. Take the lead on this and stand up for the anonymous 103. It will gain him respect and open the door for foregiveness.

    Fight it…..Someone violated a court order th at was supposed to protect him. So, this reporter has these sources? What she’s saying is, she has information that is unlawful. She should have to give ’em up.

    My prediction….he’s gonna cry like a baby!

    • steve (different one)

      i have no idea which path he will take, but i guarantee this week will be the craziest week any of us have ever seen as yankee fans.

  • Curramba

    If turns out that he did do roids then he just becomes another great of Roid era. To join Bonds, McGuire, Sosa and the rest. The HOF may want to open a wing that shows the best of the Roid Era.

  • Tom Zig

    I heard A-rod released his name to the media about his reported steroid use because he hates the pro-bowl so much and the news about Torre’s book was about to blow over. Always reachin for that spot light lol.

  • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside
  • TomG

    I feel like a fool for thinking I could just wait it out for a few years and all the steroid stuff would blow over. It’s not going to blow over. Ever. Baseball has turned into cycling. Every few months for the rest of our lives there is going to be another performance enhancement story. It’s going to be awesome.

  • Reacher

    Isn’t it a bit premature to reach a judgment on the HOF for A-Rod? He has nine years left on his contract, and then an additional five before he becomes eligible. This takes us to the year 2023; a lot can happen in that time.

    But, it’s typical Abraham who simply doesn’t like A-Rod. The press, unfortunately, runs rampant with incidents of this nature without letting matters actually play out.

  • Darren

    I’m totally on A-Rod’s side on this issue. The guy is a jerk but he’s being singled out as the Messiah of Baseball when baseball has always had cheaters and has never really been pure. All of which has been said multiple times.

    Sidenote: Who wants to bet that Stephen A. Smith will be the guy who scores an interview with A-Rod?

    • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

      I think you mean “pariah” and not “Messiah”…

      • Darren

        Now he’s the pariah who was a messiah. At least according to Jayson Stark.

  • donttradecano

    So if were keeping players out of the HOF for steroids…we should take Lance Alworth out the the Pro Football HOF.

    • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

      So if we’re keeping players out of the HOF for steroids…we should take Lance Alworth everyone except for coaches and executives out of the Pro Football HOF.

      Fixed.

  • A Hind

    question to all the people who think that, Bonds, B-Mac, Sosa, and now A-Rod should not be in the hall of fame, if someone like Hank Aaron were to come out and say he used greenies, the same for Mays, Jackson and then we find out the the same about Ruth and Foxx and Williams, would you want them out of the hall of fame?

  • Bo

    How can any writer say they won’t vote for guys who are linked to steroids? Either vote everyone in or vote no one in. This case by case basis is ridiculous. Because there are hundreds of players out there who will never be named that did juice.