Jeter vs. DiMaggio
ByUnless you’ve been living under the rock for the past two or three weeks, you know that Derek Jeter is approaching Lou Gehrig’s club record for career hits. Following today’s game, he’s just three hits away from tying Gehrig and four from passing him. I’m hoping that Jeter is kind enough to hold off for a few days so I can see him break the record in person on Wednesday, but I’m not going to hold my breath.
Anyway, Steve Lombardi at Was Watching takes a crack at comparing Jeter to another all-time great Yankee – Joe DiMaggio – and shows that determining who’s better may not be as easy as you think. It’s seems like just yesterday that the Cap’n was making his debut, but now we’re comparing him to some of the greatest players who’ve ever lived. Crazy, huh?
Love this kind of debate…and hate it.
I’ve seen Jete play, obviously never saw Joe D.
Great article btw…I’d have to say Joe D was better, but Jete is in the conversation, and that’s a compliment enough.
The only guys I put ahead of Jete are Babe, Gehrig, and Joe D, with Mantle and Yogi after the Capitan.
You would really put Joe D. ahead of Mantle? Mantle was a godlike offensive player, who definitely gets the CF in my all-Yankee team ahead of Joltin’ Joe…which would obviously also put Mantle ahead of Jeter.
Yogi too, for that matter. Also, I seriously think Bill Dickey deserves a look.
yeah, I just think Joe D was more complete…
it’s funny to see how many borderline or automatic HOF’s the yanks drafted/signed in the early 1990s and groomed them through the system
Just a few off the top of my head:
Bernie, Posada, Pettitte, Mariano, Jeter
Hell, they even signed alfonso soriano (in 98 i think) and he was a beast offensively for the yanks (even though he was terrible at 2nd base)
True enough.
Think of the numbers that Posada, Jeter, Pettitte, and Mo are putting up this year at their ages.
Just a great crop of players.
“yesterday that the Cap’n was making his debut, but now we’re comparing him to some of the greatest players who’ve ever lived. Crazy, huh?”
As if white hair and going bald wasn’t enough thank you for making me feel older.
LOL
I have tickets to both games tomorrow and on wednesday, but I sold my seats to Tuesdays game earlier in the year…im getting nervous. May be skipping first night of classes on tuesday to buy a ticket to see Jeet get this done…or he could just go 4-8 tomorrow against 2 pitchers that he is hitting 14-43 against
i love jeter, but there is nothing dimaggio didn’t do better; because of the type of sprayer he is as a hitter, his home park has never been a heavy factor in his play/stats; joe, on the other hand, was more victimized by a home park than any player in history (if you don’t believe me, try bill james on that subject); i once did a research paper on joe vs. other great hitters with home and road in mind; his figures are better than all of them on the road…anyone who wants to can check them out; i haven’t yet read the lombardi article, but will; what i will say is that both players inspired their mates, and it is no accident, i think, that derek grabbed the sign from the old stadium in which dimag said he wanted to go all out all the time because there might be a kid seeing him for the first time; i saw joe play in ‘49, the year he missed the first half of the season and came back at fenway to hit four homers in a three-game sweep…as famous as he was for his grace and mystique, he has been underrated by the “experts” for his numbers; being in the conversation with him does a service to any player who ever lived, and only the babe would be a rung above
The sign Jete took read:
“I want to thank the Good Lord for making me a Yankee”
According to Baseball Projection’s historical WAR data, DiMaggio has about a 20 WAR edge on Jeter. Of course, that’s with a rudimentary historical defense estimator, as well as defensive ratings for Jeter that may be screwy. It does sorta jive with my perception, though — that DiMaggio has a massive edge in quality, but if Derek can keep it up for a few more years, his longevity will give him similar career value to Joe’s peak.
As for Steve’s argument, I’m not sure I 100% buy it, solely because Mize v. Gehringer isn’t the same as DiMaggio v. Jeter, due to Mize being a 1B/PH. Good argument as far as batting value added, though.
I think the deification of Jeter has gone more than a bit too far.
What is Lombardi’s argument here? First, DiMaggio’s batting statistics dwarf Jeter’s. Among many other things, it’s interesting that their TB counts are almost equal, but Jeter has about 2000 more PA’s. There’s more. Just look at them side-by-side on Baseball-reference for specifics. Jeter is a good hitter, but DiMaggio was a great one, playing in much less favorable circumstances. If I recall, left center field in the old Stadium was 465 feet.
So Lombardi thinks defense makes up for that. He admits that DiMaggio was a superb CF, and Jeter a below-average shortstop. So DiMaggio was not just a much better hitter, he was also a much better fielder at his position. Can Lombardi be serious that the difference in difficulty between SS and CF makes up all that ground?
That’s ridiculous.
Maybe the “deification of Jeter has gone too far. Then again, when all is said and done, Jeter will rank as one of the top few SS of all time (even Neyer now argues this), just as DiMaggio was one of the top few CF of all time. That Jeter is even in the discussion–even on the losing end (DiMaggio was much better, especially looking at his peak)–is impressive enough.
We have been thoroughly spoiled by having #2 at SS for the past decade and a half. When that production has to be replaced in a year or three or four, we may come to realize just how great Jeter has been.
I don’t think it’s close. DiMaggio has a claim to being the greatest center fielder of all time. Jeter has no comparable claim. He lags far behind Honus Wagner, ARod, Ernie Banks, and Cal Ripken, Jr.
Check out Neyer’s recent evaluation. Jeter has a higher career OBP, SLG and OPS+ than Ripken, who also played 3B for 675 games. Jeter is better than Ripken (though Ripken had three super seasons to Jeter’s one). Banks stopped playing SS at age 29. Jeter has them both beat as career SSs. A-Rod will play more games as a 3B than SS. Depending on how you evaluate his career (SS or 3B), Jeter would rank 2nd or 3rd behind Wagner.
Mantle (177 OPS+, career .977 OPS) is almost certainly the greater CF than DiMaggio (155 OPS+, .977 OPS). Mays is in the running.
In the end, you have Jeter as (probably) the second best career SS, and DiMaggio as (probably) the second best career CF.
I don’t know. DiMaggio over Mays? It’s close…
Tough call. Mays (156 OPS+, .954 OPS) v. DiMaggio (155 OPS+, .977 OPS). Mays lost nearly two early years (age 21-22) to military service. DiMaggio lost three prime years (age 28-30). Mays hung on a little too long, but has better counting stats. DiMaggio’s career was cut short by injuries and his counting stats suffered in addition from his home stadium. Both were reputedly excellent defenders.
I’m a huge Yankee and DiMaggio fan, so I lean toward Joltin’Joe, but I can see it the other way.
And I think that Mantle was better than both of them, especially if you look at his peak seasons.
Her’s where I’m puzzled by the argument. On the one hand you are citing his batting statistics for the claim that he is one of the two or three best SS ever. Nothing about defense. OK.
But then when you (or others maybe) compare him to players at other positions the defensive importance of SS suddenly becomes a huge factor. Lombardi argues, as I said above, that it might balance out both the large difference in hitting between Jeter and DiMaggio and the fact that Joe D. was a great defensive CF, while Jeter is only an adequate, maybe below average, defensive SS.
When I pointed out the other day that Mattingly’s numbers were comparable to Jeter’s, and he was an outstanding 1B, I was shouted down with cries of, “But Jeter’s a SS.” So which is it? Is the defensive aspect of the position crucially important, in which case we need to take that into account in comparing him to other SS, or is it largely secondary, in which case we base our comparisons primarily on offensive output?
Mays is in the running.
Yeah. In the running. Right.
I think the A-Rod comparison is a little suspect. Suppose he’d stayed at SS, as well he might have under other circumstances. Wouldn’t he clearly outrank Jeter? After all, the essential argument of the Jeter fans is that he is a good hitter playing an important defensive position, albeit not brilliantly. Wouldn’t A-Rod at SS make mincemeat of that?
In short, I hear a lot of, “but Jeter’s a shortstop.” OK, but just an adequate one defensively, so his value lies in his hitting, and there he doesn’t come close to the CF’s (including Duke Snider).
We can say this now 5 years after he offered to switch positions for the yankees (its fresh in our head) but years down the line he will be remembered as a great hitter and good defense (in his prime) the position of SS vs. 3B wont be a huge issue, but it will be noted how successful he was after the switch.
You can’t rank a player by what-might-have-been’s. The fact is, he won’t have a full career at SS like Jeter will probably have.
Suppose he’d stayed at SS, as well he might have under other circumstances. Wouldn’t he clearly outrank Jeter?
Yes, he would have…and he would have been challenging Honus for the greatest SS of all time. But he didn’t so he isn’t, at least if we are talking about “greatest SS.”
In terms of greatest players overall in the history of the game, I think A-Rod certainly outranks Jeter.