Managerial changes in Tampa & Charleston

That the meetings happened is pretty indsputable, so pointing out a certain meeting as a turnaround, (Not to mention, the team did turn around) doesn’t seem too far-fetched.

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/correlation.png (safe)

Just a quick counterpoint:

Joba’s ML debut was during that 2007 season. Joba’s August and September addition solidified a bullpen that had been shaky to that point (as it had been for the prior few seasons, mind you).

Joe Torre’s boss had to give Torre a strict set of rules to keep Joe Torre from PERMANENTLY BREAKING his new bullpen addition (as he had done during the prior few regular seasons, mind you). Keep that in mind when you claim that Joe Torre’s great managerial acumen was on display during Torre’s “pretty decent to very good” display of Managing 101 during the 2007 regular season.

The reason the Joba Rules existed is because Torre broke/exhausted Tom Gordon, Paul Quantrill, Scott Proctor, Steve Karsay, etc. etc. etc.

They put the Joba Rules Torre Rules in place because of Torre’s history of breaking his bullpens by drastically overusing his top 2-3 relievers.

I think we assign way too much credit and blame to managers, particularly when it comes to things like “motivating” and “managing personalities”. How can we really know if they gelled or not? I think Torre was also aided by a strong “core” of respected players. Perhaps Torre was a key component of that, but it’s hard to separate what he did and what was part of the actual mentality of the clubhouse.

Furthermore, it’s not a game like football or basketball where there are defined strategies for plays. It’s almost always, “this is my starting pitcher, this is my starting lineup—let’s see where this goes and then we’ll make some changes if it’s not really working out.” There aren’t really “game plans.”

Sure, those changes are important, but aside from the bullpen management (which I think Torre was particularly poor at), what’s really there to do? Maybe a hit-and-run in one inning, or a stolen base, a bunt at some spot, a pinch hitter?

The point is I believe the manager has far less impact on the game than we like to believe. They maybe have a say in a few important moves in the game. Unless we’re in Billy Martin territory.

Also, saying Torre LOOKED asleep is just as ridiculous as me saying that, necasue the team drastically improved after a big meeting in Toronto, that he helped gel the personalities. We really don’t know.

Both points are unaffected. At best, you’re saying Torre WOULD have broken Joba (not an out there assumption but still, it didn’t happen), and the other aspects of his management have nothing to do with that aspect. So in effect your comment refuted neither of my points.

No.

What I’m saying is, the reason Torre didn’t break Joba like he broke other bullpen pitchers before his is because Joe Torre’s powers as a manager were intentionally curtailed by his superiors to prevent him from ever having the chance to break Joba. Joe Torre’s decisionmaking process as a manager was so untrustworthy by 2007 that his bosses stepped in and made the unprecedented step of banning him from using the players on his roster however he saw fit .

That’s a pretty damning statement. Good managers don’t need to be told by their bosses, “Don’t pitch this new 21 year old kid we’re giving you–who is the future of our franchise, mind you–every fucking day or his arm will fall off.”

TIt’s not that easy. You can’t just “cruise” to twelve straight playoff appearances, 7 pennants, and 4 world series.

That is tremendously difficult. Four World Series is a TON of World Series. That’s as many as the Mets and Phillies combined.

Yeah, he only won four world series and went to 7. He was terrible at keeping them in good shape for the playoffs.

Bullpen management is important. But why do you just assume it’s more important than personality management? Right now at any rate, no stats quantify personality management (not that it’s impossible, you’d need to implement polls or something), so we don’t know.

I already responded.

I liked more when the team played teriffic baseball the rest of the season and made the playoffs. But I guess Torre gets no credit for his sucess and only blame for his failures.

A) The 2007 Yankees team was full of terrific players. Having them play terrifically over a larger sample isn’t all that uncommon.
B) The 2007 Yankees played better baseball during the second half of 2007 primarily because Kyle Farnsworth was replaced by Joba Chamberlain and Kei Igawa/Darrell Rasner/Matt DeSalvo/Tyler Clippard were replaced by Roger Clemens and Phil Hughes. There’s that, too.

However there was a reason they were all playing bad, and Torre corrected it.

You THINK he fixed it. You THINK that.

And we have pretty valid reasons for doing so.

Allright, I believe Girardi overmanged to excess in the playoffs, underused certain pitchers, and tried to tinker too much with lineup in the WS. I also think he lost control of the team at times, evidenced when Cashman had to visit Atlanta to get the team under control. Therefore, I feel the team won despite, not because of, Girardi.

Yes, he had a 103 win season, but they started slow, and with that talent, it’s no surprise they ended so strong. Anyway, he eeded Cashman to bail him out both in Atlanta and by getting him the nicest toys to play with in the offseason, and even then in the playoffs he does such shit as pulling Roberson vs. the Angels in the ALCS, catching Molina and not Posada vs. Burnett, and using a 3-man rotation (particularly bad in the WS).

The team would have been better with a different manager, so therefore I give Girardi no credit for the sucess, and all the blame for the failure. See, I could do it too.

He held meetings, the team improved. What more evidence do you want? In that case, it’s impossible to judge how any manager is afffecting any team.

I was being completely sarcastic. I like Girardi, I was just pointing out how, in hindsight, any manager could be made to look like they were a detriment to the team.