Open Thread: John Flaherty

January 16, 2012 by Michael Axisa 121 Comments

Remember how many bad backup catchers the Yankees went through during the Jorge Posada era? There was Chris Widger, Kelly Stinnett, Wil Nieves, Chris Turner, Todd Greene … I feel like I’ve only scratched the surface. Posada’s primary backup from 2003-2005 was current YES analyst John Flaherty, who signed with the team on this date nine years ago.

Like most backup backstops, Flaherty was terrible, hitting just .226/.261/.387 with a dozen homers in 389 plate appearances in pinstripes. He’ll always have that big hit though, the walk-off ~~double~~ single to left in the 13th inning against the Red Sox on July 1st, 2004. That’s the game when Derek Jeter flipped into the stands and the Yankees scored two runs in the bottom of the 13th thanks to a rally fueled by Tony Clark, Ruben Sierra, Miguel Cairo, and Flaherty. That hit was easily his most memorable with the team, and also the most memorable by a non-Posada catcher in the last 15 years or so. It was pretty sweet.

* * *

Here is your open thread for the night. The Knicks and Nets already played, so it’s just the Islanders that are in action tonight. Us Time Warner folk still don’t have MSG though. Talk about whatever you like here, anything goes.

Alfredo

I was wondering who here would do this trade:
Yankees:Pedro Alvarez
Pirates: Phill Hughes,Dellin Betances, and Austin Romine.
- Avi
  
  Never.
  - Alfredo
    
    how about if You take Hughes out of the deal?
    - Preston
      
      Pedro Alvarez is a bust. I wouldn’t trade Romine for him straight up.
      - Alfredo
        
        I think he is way better then you think he is i just think he had a bad season last year.
        I have another trade proposal:
        Yankees: Mike Moukstakas
        Royals: Dellin Betances, Eduardo Nunez
        
        candyforstalin
        
        please stop.
        
        Alfredo
        
        We need a young 3B. A-Rod can still play but i rather have him DHing.
        
        CJ
        
        “We” meaning the Yankees need a young, talented, cheap cost controlled 3B? “We” don’t “need” one as much as almost every other team in baseball.
        
        Preston
        
        When you strike out 30% of the time it’s really hard to be successful. That’s Mark Reynolds territory, except Alvarez has less power, and takes fewer walks (he is better defensively). I don’t think his approach would benefit from being a part time player, if anything I think his struggles would increase.
        As for Moukstakas, why would the Royals trade him? Why would the Yankees want an unproven commodity? A-Rod needs to be the 3B, and even at his age he has a better glove than either Alvarez or Moukstakas.
        
        http://www.bronxbombersreport.com Craig Maduro
        
        Ideally, I think A-Rod needs to DH – especially now that Montero is gone. Staying healthy has been a riddle for him the past few years and not even the Yanks can afford to have his mongloidious salary sitting on the DL.
        
        T.O. Chris
        
        Speaking of Alex I’m really excited to see him come back from this surgery in Germany. Kobe Bryant had and thus far (I’ve watched all the Lakers games) he looks at least 3 years younger in his legs. He has more explosiveness and jump in his legs than I’ve seen in 2-4 years. I’ve been quite impressed and stunned with the overall improvement.
        
        http://www.bronxbombersreport.com Craig Maduro
        
        I’ll take anything (anything legal) that extends the length of A-Rod’s productivity.
        
        T.O. Chris
        
        The German surgery was approved by the NBA and MLB as a valid procedure.
        
        Preston
        
        Ideally A-Rod plays 3B for 4 more years and Dante Bichette Jr. takes over after that. Obviously he might not last at 3B that long and to keep him healthy we might need to move him to DH. But I don’t think we’ll do that until we have to.
        
        William
        
        Wow. The Royals would be dumb to do that. You need Banuelos and Hughes to do that…..
      - http://www.bronxbombersreport.com Craig Maduro
        
        I can’t even express how quickly the trigger should be pulled from the Yankees POV on a hypothetical Alverez for Romine proposal.
- CJ
  
  No way
- Landry
  
  Why is everyone rushing to trade Hughes?
Jay Kap Jr

Islanders Already Played Too… Sad Night in Sports.
- Mike R.
  
  At least Tavares got a goal, albeit meaningless.
Michael Mirabella

If Banuelos (don’t know if I spelled that correctly) pitches like Edwin Jackson would you be happy? Same for Becyanes
- CJ
  
  Spelling is correct but when in doubt man ban will do.
http://twitter.com/steveh603 Steve H

How Flaherty ever had a 27 game hitting streak is beyond amazing.

Flaherty was actually very good his first two years with the Yankees, then morphed into Jose Iglesias in his 3rd year.
- Robinson Tilapia
  
  He was immortal, then.
  
  Love,
  Peter Gammons
CANO FAN #1

Yankees, Hideki Matsui Have Been In Contact about DH

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/.....witterfeed
- Robinson Tilapia
  
  I just got an email as to merchandise from yankees.com today. I’m waiting for the MLBTR post saying we’ve been in contact.
  
  In all seriousness, seeing what these former Yankees have left in the tank and, if as a part-time DH, what can be squeezed out of them offensively can be done at a low cost, isn’t the worst idea on earth. It’s also probably “Chicken Soup For the Forlorn and Hurt Yankee Fan Soul After Jesus,” although soup never won a championship.
  - Owen Two
    
    “…although [S]oup never won a championship.”
    
    He should have, though.
    
    Sorry, couldn’t resist.
    - Robinson Tilapia
      
      Onix Concepcion! Buddy Biancalana!
  - http://www.bronxbombersreport.com Craig Maduro
    
    Seeing old, washed up former Yankees deliver old, washed up production is not going to make anybody feel any better about the loss of Jesus.
    - Robinson Tilapia
      
      Again, you’ve never met my mother-in-law. :)
    - Robinson Tilapia
      
      Also, the question is whether either of these guys could deliver solid production as a part-time DH when no one is being given the day off and/or Jones is on the bench. No one is expecting a fountain of youth here.
      - thumper
        
        If it came down to it, I’d rather have the Yankees roll with in-house options for now and pick up a bat at the deadline rather than bring back Matsui or Damon. However, if they wanted to go all in for Pena right away, I’d be all for it.
      - http://www.bronxbombersreport.com Craig Maduro
        
        My money is on ‘no’. The Yanks weakened the offense for starting pitching. That’s fine. On paper the rotation looks like it should be strong for years to come. You have to plug the gap in the offense though and you can’t do it with slop. Pony up and bring in Carlos Pena. It’s not like we’re demanding Prince Fielder.
        
        Robinson Tilapia
        
        If they utilize the DH spot correctly with what they’ve got, I’m not convinced there’s that big a hole. Pena would be great, and I’d prefer him, but they can get this done without any of them.
- Landry
  
  They actually called him about some of his old porn they found in storage room.
Alfredo

No for Banuelos and yes for Betances.
Michael Mirabella

If Banuelos (don’t know if I spelled that correctly) pitches like Edwin Jackson would you be happy? Same for Bectanes
PinedaColada

I wonder how much leash Pineda will be given by the yanks FO and Girardi. I mean what Do they do if he starts the season 0-3 with bad peripherals ? Does he get sent down to AAA? He has 3 options… I sure hope he is excited to be a Yankee and brings with him a positive attitude and great work ethic. With that being said I love his stuff and think he can be a stud pitcher for a long time
- Alfredo
  
  +1
- Robinson Tilapia
  
  Seattle would keep a .180 hitting Montero in the lineup. Seattle is also still a pretty bad team.
  
  I think Pineda gets more leash than that, but I also think actual outcome falls in between this and “slot him right behind Sabathia in 2012 and all will be good.”
- T.O. Chris
  
  I wouldn’t worry about him being excited about joining the Yanks, the fans over at “Look out Landing” said he grew up a Yankee fan. So this is probably a dream come true.
- T.O. Chris
  
  I don’t think you have to worry about him being excited about joining the Yankees. The Mariners fans over at “Lookout Landing” said he grew up a Yankee fan, so this is probably a dream come true.
  - PinedaColada
    
    That’s great to hear! Let’s hope he is an absolute beast and that change up develops nicely
http://www.twitter.com/matt__harris Matt :: Sec110

Pearl River, NY resident!
Rainbow Connection

“Rice n’ beans?”
https://twitter.com/#!/czm26 Craig

Pulling my Tim McCarver for the night: As bad as Flaherty was with the Yankees as a catcher, that’s how bad he is as an analyst now.

Seriously, the games he and Lorenz call cause me to fall asleep.
- Rainbow Connection
  
  It’s not the pace of: pitch, wait 60 seconds, pitch, wait 60 seconds, hitter steps out, wait 60 seconds, hitter steps out, wait 60 seconds, pitch….?
  - http://twitter.com/#!/czm93 Craig
    
    Nope, it’s only those two. Every other broadcaster I’ve experienced I’ve been fine with and remained alert. The only two duos I find worse than the aforementioned Flaherty and Lorenz are the LAA Angels’ announcers and the Pittsburgh Penguins, whose names escape me.
Avi

There were only 14 hitters that hit at least 30 homers and batted at least .270 last year. Most of us expect Montero to hit at that level or better. There were twice as many starting pitchers to have a better FIP than Pineda’s 3.42 (53 starters had a better ERA).
- Avi
  
  You also need more good hitters to have a good offense than starters to have a good rotation.
  - T.O. Chris
    
    Your right a 22 year old in his rookie year probably has reached his peak. One who only has a 3.42 FIP in the AL is probably a huge bust.
    - Sarah
      
      And he is going off of what Montero is expected to do, not what he’s actually done. But hey, let’s call it a bad trade before either player has had a chance to perform.
    - Avi
      
      As I said below, pitcher’s don’t necessarily improve as they age the way hitters do.
      - http://www.bronxbombersreport.com Craig Maduro
        
        Of course they do. Roy Halladay, Cliff Lee and countless others didn’t break into the big leagues contending for Cy Young awards.
  - http://twitter.com/steveh603 Steve H
    
    Horrible argument.
  - Landry
    
    How many days are we going to hear you say this was a bad trade before you stop? You can keep repeating the same thing over and over, but nothing’s going to change.
    - Electrifying MC
      
      I know he was an uberprospect and all, but are we really sure that Jesus would actually be able to attain such a high level of prodution?
  - Rainbow Connection
    
    This chick keeps posting the same thing over and over.
- http://twitter.com/steveh603 Steve H
  
  In American League history there have been 10 seasons by a pitcher age 24 or younger who averaged a strikeout per inning while qualifying for the ERA title. Pineda, at age 22, is one of those 10.
  - T.O. Chris
    
    Clearly you didn’t get the memo Montero = HOF, Pineda = newest Yankee ball boy.
  - Avi
    
    That sounds great Steve but pitchers’ K rates don’t usually increase as they get older and gain experience. Furthermore, pitchers don’t improve as the they get older the way hitters do.
    - http://twitter.com/steveh603 Steve H
      
      His K rate doesn’t need to improve, he’s in extremely rare territory already.
      
      And pitchers absolutely improve with age.
    - Needed Pitching
      
      Are you claiming that pitcher’s reach their peak at age 22???
    - http://www.bronxbombersreport.com Craig Maduro
      
      No disrespect, but you might wanna take this one back to the drawing board Avi.
    - T.O. Chris
      
      You’re right it’s not like CC Sabathia, who parallels Pineda in many ways, had 3 sub 7 K/9 seasons before age 25. He also didn’t post his first sub 3.6 ERA until age 26, or his first good ground ball percentage season before age 25.
      - Avi
        
        No you guys are right, pitchers do in fact improve with age. I guess what I was thinking of with Pineda is that he throws very hard and isn’t gonna throw harder as he gets older. His control likely isn’t gonna get better either. The only way he improves is if he develops other pitches, preferably a changeup. I think it’s more likely he develops other variations to his fastball though, like a cutter. I took the thought too far.
        
        T.O. Chris
        
        Why would he not be able to improve his control? He’s 6-7 and already seems to have a good feel for his mechanics. If anything as he gets older and understands his body more he will only further enhance his ability to repeat his mechanics, thus leading to less walks.
        
        He already throws a 2-seam fastball and cutter to some degree he just doesn’t throw them a ton. But he varies the movement on the fastball enough that it certainly throws off the batters.
        
        DRays Bay has a great scouting report up on Pineda with pitch graphs mapping the difference in his fastballs, trying to prove he is indeed more than a simple 2 pitch pitcher. Great read and I highly recommend it.
        
        http://www.draysbay.com/2012/1.....rk-yankees
        
        Needed Pitching
        
        not sure that’s true about the control likely not to get better. I just quickly checked some established pitchers (CC, Halladay, Lee, Carpenter, Beckett, Haren) and their BB% all generally trended better as they got older.
      - http://twitter.com/steveh603 Steve H
        
        CC was also a 2 pitch pitcher then.
- Needed Pitching
  
  There were 64 hitters that had better than Pineda’s 3.4 fWAR last season.
  There were only 37 pitchers that had a better than 3.4 fWAR last season.
  
  The point??? Just that its easy to cherry pick stats to make whatever argument that you wish.
  - Avi
    
    Based on run scoring continuing to be down, it seems to me that the good hitter is becoming more scarce and the good starter is becoming more abundant. I haven’t yet found a great way to say it or the right stat to illustrate it though.
Nathan

How could you guys forget Sal Fasano and his ‘stash?
- http://buntdouble.blogspot.com Ralph
  
  How could they forget Francisco Cervelli and his Cervelli-ness?
  There was also the one game and done Chris Stewart. Strangely only one major league have been named Chris Stewart in the entire history of baseball (according to BR).
  There was almost Todd Pratt and Ben Davis, two guys who used to have some attention as prospects. Though Pratt got a bit putting up good stats at age 23 and 24 in AAA, while Davis was 2nd overall bust.
Shamus

Yankees: David Wright
Mets: Betances, Whelan and Nunez

yay or nay?

Gotta figure the Mets know they will lose him to free agency next year. Why not get something for him?
- vin
  
  Because after the trade, Sandy Alderson will be forced to stand at a podium in front of reporters and explain why he traded the team’s best, most marketable player for a pitcher with significant control problems, bullpen filler, and an infielder with an OK bat and defensive issues.
- Robinson Tilapia
  
  You forgot to add Michael Pineda to the deal, which is probably who the else the Mets would ask for.
RRRRRRandy

Nobody has lost more cash money over the past week than Yoennis Céspedes. Naturally, some team will still give a boatload dinero, but he’s put up a stinker in these past few games he’s been playing in.

Should have stuck with the box jumps. It worked for Cody Ransom.
Soriano Is A Liar

Here’s a game, drink every time this exchange happens on a Flaherty broadcast:

“Michael Kay: That was a mammoth home run. You hit some shots like that one back in your day, right John?

John Flaherty: Yeah, maybe in batting practice.”

Repeat next inning. And again the inning after that.
- Rainbow Connection
  
  haha
  
  “I was fortunate enough to be on some great teams, surrounded by big hitters…”
gageagainstthemachine

Please, please, please spare us (in regards to back-up catcher open threads) and never do a Sal Fasano one. The horror…the horror!!
Shamus

Fasano, Giambino:

Fear the Stache
vin

Required reading for everyone obsessing over Pineda’s splits.

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs.....as-splits/
- Needed Pitching
  
  and one more, about a slightly more worrisome split
  
  http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs.....ing-about/
  - T.O. Chris
    
    I really don’t find that split to be all that worrisome. Especially when you look at his triple slash line against lefties, which while worse than against righties was still very dominant despite the lack of a true left handed neutralizing pitch.
    
    Vs LHP- .237/.296/.357, with 8 HRs in 325 ABs
    Vs RHP- .184/.261/.326, with 10 HRs in 304 ABs
    
    He actually gave up less HRs to lefties in more ABs than he did to righties despite the slightly higher OBP and SLG%. If he can develop any sort of a split or change he is going to be a serious beast. Bottom line the kid can pitch!
    - Needed Pitching
      
      I agree, I’m really not worried about it. I just used that terminology because that was the point the article was trying to make. Yes, he had a platoon split, but its not like his numbers against lefties were bad, they just weren’t quite as elite as his numbers against righties.
  - vin
    
    Yeah, I’ve got to admit that he lost me after he tried declaring alarm because Pineda *only* had a 7.7 k/9 against LHB. Are you kidding me? And linking to a Jim Bowden tweet was just icing on the cake. Eno lost a lot of credibility with me.
    
    Of course Pineda would benefit from adding a 3rd pitch to help neutralize lefties. Of course being a RHP in Yankee Stadium can be difficult. Of course the Red Sox are stacked with lefties. No one is saying Pineda is Greg Maddux. He’s a 23 year old with 5 years of team control left coming off a very good rookie season.
  - http://twitter.com/steveh603 Steve H
    
    There’s so much garbage in that.
- T.O. Chris
  
  That is a really good read and it should be noted Dave Cameron is a Seattle Mariner fan, so he wouldn’t have any sort of Yankee bias. He was also on MLB Network today saying pretty much this exact stuff and confirmed that in his opinion the Yankees got the slightly better side of the deal.
  
  Yesterday someone tried to compare Michael Pineda’s second season to Phil Hughes’ 2010 season saying both started strong but finished with a bad second half. The truth is there are very few if any similarities between those two seasons.
  
  When you break there numbers down through June you see Pineda was by far and away the better pitcher over pretty much the entire course of the year.
  
  Through June Pineda pitched 102.0 innings and posted a 2.64 ERA, he then posted a 5.34 ERA over the final 69 innings of the season.
  
  Through June of 2010 Hughes pitched 88.0 innings and posted a 3.57 ERA, he then posted a 4.80 ERA over the final 88.1 innings of the season.
  
  Pineda really had only one really bad month, in July when he gave up 21 earned runs in 28 innings (6.75 ERA). But even in this really bad month he posted a 3.74 FIP and a 3.14 xFIP. So he likely didn’t even pitch all that terribly in that month, especially when you consider his .294 BABIP in that month was the highest of any month that season.
  
  Pineda FIP by month:
  Mar/Apr- 2.26 FIP
  May- 3.15 FIP
  June- 3.90 FIP
  July- 3.74 FIP
  August- 4.20 FIP
  Sept/Oct- 3.41 FIP
  - Robinson Tilapia
    
    Young players can be inconsistent. You don’t even need to break down a monthly FIP to make that point, although it helps.
    - T.O. Chris
      
      If anything he was amazingly consistent throughout the year peripheral wise. His BABIP, LOB%, and ERA just fluctuated towards the end of the year. The deeper you look into the numbers the more and more solid his overall season looked.
      - PinedaColada
        
        So rough translation is let’s not worry and let the kid continue to develop into what we can all hope is a younger right handed CC Sabathia
Plank

2B (Prospects only)

MLB: Cano

AAA: Corban Joseph

AA: Dave Adams

A+: Anderson Feliz (Non-Prospect?)

A-: Angelo Gumbs

SA: Jose Rosario (Maybe a SS though)

Please feel free to critique the list.
- Plank
  
  Pretty decent spread of talent throughout. No names really pop out. Dave Adams could have been something, but has been decimated by injuries. Methinks Cano gets a contract extension so these guys are working their way to be the 25th man in a few years. I don’t see anyone who looks like much more.
- T.O. Chris
  
  Isn’t Gumbs likely to move to the OF at some point in the near future?
  - Plank
    
    Is he? I hadn’t heard that. Strike that name off the list, then.
    
    On a similar note, when looking at minor league 2B, it’s important to remember that lots of minor league SS become 2B in the near future.
    - T.O. Chris
      
      I’ve heard talk of a possible move to CF because of his athleticism and the fact that with Cano he has no future at 2nd. If he does move we end up with a pretty high stock of young, low minor, outfielders like we haven’t had in a long time.
      - Plank
        
        Gumbs is the only name that pops out on that list that seems like he could be a major league regular. He’s young and far away, but he’s one of the guys I’m looking forward to following next season, no matter where he plays.
MattG

Would any ESPN Insiders here like to share with me what Keith Law had to say about THE TRADE?
- Sarah
  
  He liked it for both teams.
- mbonzo
  
  Yea he said both teams didn’t gamble much, but likes the trade slightly more for the Mariners, though Campos could make the deal a steal for the Yankees.
T.O. Chris

Can we just agree that anyone thinking rationally, and not talking from emotions, has to agree that Pineda has tremendous potential and is already a very solid pitcher better than anyone we had before this not named Sabatha. He may or may not become an ace going forward, but he certainly could become the next Sabathia if things go right. Also barring injury he should at the very least be a very solid middle of the rotation pitcher for years to come.
- Monterowasdinero
  
  Agree with this and I like Montero a bit.
  
  I also think Campos may be in the rotation before Betances.
  - T.O. Chris
    
    I could certainly see Campos as a rotation piece before Betances. I’ve always sort of seen Betances ended up in the pen due to his control problems. Campos seems to have as good of velocity as Betances, maybe no secondary pitch as good as Dellin’s curve, but markedly better with the control.
ThatstheMelkyMesaWaysa

All Flaherty talks about is catching Randy Johnson… As I recall, Johnson wasn’t really prolific with the Yanks. no bragging rights for flash on that one
- T.O. Chris
  
  This is actually not completely true. Randy had a very good first year with the Yankees, he was hurt most of the second year and people tend to remember that season more.
  
  17 W, 8 L, 225.2 IP, 8.42 K/9, 1.87 BB/9, 3.79 ERA, 3.78 FIP, 3.43 xFIP, 4.6 WAR
  
  Keep in mind he was 41 years old, striking out close to 9 per 9, walking less than 2 per 9, and had a pretty good ERA for his first jump back to the AL in years at such an advanced age. He was every bit the ace we wanted in that first year.
  - ThatstheMelkyMesaWaysa
    
    I never said he was bad. He was the randy they expected for year, but not after that. When I said prolific I was talking bird-killing mariners and D-Backs Randy
    - T.O. Chris
      
      Ahh. At 41 I think we all knew we weren’t getting the 100 MPH Randy. I do feel he gets undeservedly written off as a Yankee bust by many and he was clearly anything but, he was hurt the 2nd year but he still took the ball many times when he shouldn’t have so he wouldn’t let us down. The guys deserves credit for what he accomplished in his two years here, we’ve definitely done much worse.
    - GardnergoesYardner
      
      He wasn’t bird killing Randy, but he was cameramen shoving Randy.
      Still just as dangerous.
  - http://twitter.com/steveh603 Steve H
    
    He was also 5-0 against the Sox.
    - ThatstheMelkyMesaWaysa
      
      I him beat Beckett once. Posada tripled and the Yanks won something like 18-6
GardnergoesYardner

Need opinions from everyone. I was considering getting ESPN Insider, as it is 50 percent off and I’m tired off clicking an ESPN article only to be able to read only the first few paragraphs. Is it worth it? And what are the other benefits besides reading more articles, ie. fantasy baseball insight, etc.
- Plank
  
  I’ve never paid for any baseball content except the MLB radio package. That’s the best value in all of sports.
  
  I would never pay for talking heads on ESPN.
- CMP
  
  I think it’s pretty good. The football and basketball content is good plus you get all the Klaw columns which are nice. I think it’s a pretty good value
  - GardnergoesYardner
    
    Alright thanks guys. I probably will get it just to read Keith Law’s stuff.
    - Sarah
      
      Yeah it’s worth it to read KLaw’s stuff. The other stuff is entertaining tho!
    - mbonzo
      
      I recommend you just buy the magazine cheap. I think I paid $4 for a year of ESPN magazine, which comes with free Insider.
Pineda, Piñata. Potato, Potahto (Formerly Jesse)

Everyone save this article.

http://bleacherreport.com/arti.....x-rotation
- GardnergoesYardner
  
  Lol. This makes those Eric Ortiz NESN ones from last year look smart.
Kevin

Remember when he popped up with the bases loaded in game 4 of the 03 World Series?
Wil Nieves Number 1 Fan

Low blow on Nieves. Bush league, Axisa, bush league.
Rich in NJ

As bad a ML hitter as Flaherty was, he is less good at broadcasting.

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