The Morning After: Pineda & Kuroda

Yankees agree to sign Hiroki Kuroda
Open Thread: The Pineda-Kuroda Hangover
(Pineda via AP, Kuroda via Getty)

After a winter of all talk and no action, Brian Cashman made his two biggest moves in roughly two years in the span of an hour or so last night. First he acquired Michael Pineda and Jose Campos from the Mariners for Jesus Montero and Hector Noesi, then he agreed to sign Hiroki Kuroda to a one-year deal worth $10M. Just like that, the rotation went from question mark to strength. Freddy Garcia, A.J. Burnett, and Phil Hughes went from the three, four, and five starters to fighting  for one rotation spot. It’s pretty awesome.

We’re going to analyze these moves from every freakin’ angle in the coming days, I’m sure of it, but for now let’s start with a collection of thoughts and links…

  • Cashman said over and over again that he didn’t like the pitching prices this offseason, and sure enough his patience was rewarded. After four years of Mat Latos and Gio Gonzalez were each traded for a package of four young players earlier this winter, Cashman got five years of Pineda for just two young players, and he got the Mariners to kick in another prospect as well. Pineda was a steal compared to Latos and Gio.
  • My prospect game is slipping with age, and frankly I had never heard of Campos until the trade. Baseball America provided a full scouting report on the right-hander in their trade analysis, which I recommend reading to familiarize yourself with him. It’s free, you don’t need a subscription. Both Kevin Goldstein and John Sickels considered him the fifth best prospect in the M’s system.
  • There are a lot of great trade recaps out there, but I highly recommend Lookout Landing’s. Jeff Sullivan killed it when he wrote about the emotional disappointment involved with trading young players. We’re all going to miss Montero, but the fans in Seattle feel the same way about Pineda.
  • Assuming he throws a substantial amount of innings, I bet Noesi has a really good year in that division and in that ballpark with that defense next season. Don’t be surprised if he outpitches Pineda in terms of ERA and people are declaring him the “real loss” in the trade by the end of the year.
  • I honestly have no idea what they’re going to do with that last rotation spot, assuming CC Sabathia, Ivan Nova, Pineda, and Kuroda are locks for the first four spots (in some order). Chances are the Yankees don’t even know what they’re going to do either, and I bet my opinion about what they will/should do will change by the day. Is there a right answer? I’m not sure.
  • I also don’t know what the Yankees will do about their now vacant DH spot, but I highly doubt they’ll sign Prince Fielder. I mean, maybe if he’s willing to do a one-year, $20M “pillow” contract, but I wouldn’t hold my breath. I think they’re more likely to start the year with a rotating DH than they are to sign or trade for a new one.
  • The ESPN Stats & Info Blog put together a great statistical look (with heat maps!) at Pineda, Kuroda, and Montero. It’s relatively short and painless, but informative.

I’ll close with this: it never ceases to amaze me how the Yankees — in the biggest media market in the sport — manage to pull off these deals with no leaks. Pretty much everything they do is a surprise. We heard nothing about their interest in Pineda until after the trade was made, and although we knew they liked Kuroda, we never heard they were close to a deal. The quiet weeks earlier in the offseason were frustrating, but the surprise sure is fun.

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Yankees agree to sign Hiroki Kuroda
Open Thread: The Pineda-Kuroda Hangover
  • Adam B

    He made a FAIR trade for an explosive true no. 1 ACE caliber starter with a horses body.

    It hurts to lose Montero, but this is an excellent trade.

    • Gerald Williams

      Montero for Pineda, or Montero for Danks/Gio…. I’ll take Pineda everytime! I’m so glad Ca$h didn’t bit on those two.

      • Short Porch

        I’d prefer Montero for a sure #1. Adding Noesi means they could have given up 6-8 WAR/year when they’re getting 3-4 WAR in return.

        • Sayid J.

          Highly unlikely.

    • BK2ATL

      I completely agree. Pineda is what we could only hope for out of Betances, kinda like how Granderson was what Austin Jackson might have turned into. We have a proven starter. Pineda is a 22 yo stud who can and I think will work on that changeup to become more effective. Nova was able to in 2011. This Pineda kid also likely allows us to hit that $189 million target in 2014, which means no need for Hamels or Greinke or Cain next offseason. Cashman is genius.

      Cashman DID try to get Felix again. From what I’m reading, Montero, Banuelos AND Nova/Noesi were on the table for Felix, to start. Seattle didn’t even respond.

      While I’ll really miss seeing Montero develop into one of the game’s best young hitters, clearly he had no position other than DH. We should have read the writing on the wall in Sept, when he caught very few innings in MLB, even when there was a need. It’s apparent now that Sept was only a showcase for other teams, not really long-term for us. They gave Romine more time behind the plate than Montero. I guess we’ll re-up Russell Martin after 2012, if Romine doesn’t improve at AAA, then wait for Gary Sanchez.

      Kuroda is a direct shot across the bow to Burnett and Hughes. Garcia will be waiting in the wings, when one of them gets traded or moved to the bullpen.

      While we can use another bat, our SP is the best in the AL East on paper right now. If A-Rod and Tex perform closer to their career norms, while Jeter and Granderson don’t drop off too much from 2011, and Swisher has a career year before free agency, we could have designs on the WS.

      Yesterday was Black Friday for the AL East. Cashman flex his GM muscles yesterday oh so stealthily. Love it.

      • Monteroisdinero

        Agree with this post. All my computers were set on explode mode if Montero got dealt. Now back on line.

        I will miss that guy and am now a bicoastal baseball fan.

        Turned out Monterowasdinero.

        • I am not the droids you’re looking for…

          Glad you’re okay buddy. Was actually worried about you last night!

      • I am not the droids you’re looking for…

        I agree on the whole except I’d take Tampa’s rotation and depth over ours.

        I LOVE the message this sends to Hughes. I actually expect him to react very strongly. We’ll see. But if he doesn’t step up after this, then it’s bullpen or trade for sure.

  • If you like Pineda Collada

    Banuelos and Betances now get an extra year of development or end up as very valuable trade chips in a future deal.

    I’m very intrigued with Campos as well.

    • Monteroisdinero

      And now Montero is gonna get caught in the rain.

      • Genghis

        Fortunately he can walk on water.

        • Jose

          OMG …. LOL …. best comment by far!

        • Epy0n

          FTW

        • Electrifying MC

          WIN

  • Alvaro Espinosa

    No need for a big DH signing, they need to have a rotation system for that.

    I have a feeling it will be Garcia at #5, Hughes at Scranton, and AJ gone

    • MattG

      Disagree. The played that would rotate would do better with days off. Get another hitter.

      • Ted Nelson

        A LH to platoon with Jones would be a nice fit.

    • CJ

      Disagree Hughes does not belong in AAA 5th starter. Garcia has to go. AJ is hard to move.

      • BK2ATL

        Hughes needs to win that 5th spot in ST. He won’t be granted it this time. This might be his make-or-break year.

        Garcia will probably stick as the 6th starter/long man, in case Hughes or Nova regress.

        Kuroda will probably not put up as goodnumbers as he did with the Dodgers, but he knows how to pitch and should be fine in the AL East.

        Pineda with a full ST with Rothschild will probably work on that changeup. Rothschild knows how to coach power pitchers. This will be fun for us to watch. We have a true strikeout SP in the Bronx.

        Burnett??? Who knows? North Korea???

        Don’t forget that Joba will be back for the 2nd half of the season as well.

        Sounds like one of those good problems to have.

      • Electrifying MC

        I’d rather have Hughes go back down to AAA. It will teach him not to take things for granted and maybe develop a secondary pitch. Look what it did to Nova, he went 10-0 after he returned.

  • Short Porch

    I’m not a fan of the the trade at all for one simple reason: Value. What are the chances that Noesi, in a starting role, and Montero, at C and DH, produce more value than Pineda next year and each of the four years after that? From Noesi I see 2-3 WAR/year. From Montero I see 2-5 WAR year. Pineda is likely topping out at 3-4 WAR per year, especially with the dingers he’ll give up in Yankee Stadium. I do not like the matchups at all with left-handed hitters teeing off against Pineda. This could readily be a repeat of the first Vazquez trade where they thought they were getting a K:BB stud and ended up with a homer-prone pitcher. 35% ground balls is very trouble some.

    Kuroda is more of a meh, but I would have preferred Oswalt. Something tells me the Red Sox will sign him and we’ll see exactly what we missed.

    • http://www.bronxbombersreport.com Craig Maduro

      He’s going to need to further develop his change-up in order to combat those lefties. We’ve seen first hand that the task is infinitely easier said than done, but he’s young and talented. I don’t have any reason to believe that he can’t continue to improve.

      I’m just keeping my fingers crossed that he stays healthy.

      • Short Porch

        That’s exactly the point. How many power pitchers “just needed to develop a changeup”? He’s going to be facing some of the best left-handed hitters in the game in a stadium that doesn’t help much if at all.

        I’d rather have held onto Montero for a true #1. Adding in Noesi is going to hurt when he’s doing really well in Safeco. The two combined could easily add more value than Pineda alone.

        At what point do the Yankees really start developing their own pitching? That’s really the problem here. Like the old days of Ted Lilly versus Jeff Weaver, it seems they’re falling into the trap of someone else’s pitching rather than simply bringing along their guys. They have a stacked AAA rotation and in all likelihood none of those guys will see MLB innings this year.

        • tim

          I think one point in your post speaks to the delusion if many Yankee fans with regard to Montero – all stick no glove guys aren’t worth “true” established aces on the market. Any trade for a so-called true #1 would have also cost other high end prospects like Banuelos and/or Betances. And you cannot ignore the opportunity cost when calculating WAR here either. You have to add the WAR of whoever replaces both Montero and Noesi on the roster when determining the true values.

        • Kevin Winters

          At what point do the Yankees really start developing their own pitching?

          ———————

          That’s why they made the trade they can’t develop their own. If Joba and Hughes panned out there wouldn’t have been a need to deal Hughes.

    • Ted Nelson

      Totally agree. I do not like the value they got here at all. I think Montero is easily the best chip given up by either team. 2-5 WAR for Montero even seems light to me at DH. Nick Johnson had already lost a lot of his shine when traded for Javy… Not so for Montero. Value should be peaking right now. Pineda has little track record and two pitches.

      • Cris Pengiucci

        It was pointed out on the M’s blog site (link in the article) that Edgar Martinez only put up 3 WAR in one of his best seasons. If Montero can’t stick at C and Pineda matches what he did last season, this is an OK trade. Losing Noesi will hurt the first couple of years, or at least seem to tip the trade in favor of the M’s. However Campos provides a young arm with plenty of upside and makes the other young arms even more tradeable (or be the trade chip himself). We won’t know how this will work out for quite some time. Emotionally, as many have said, this is hard to swallow, but could set up the Yankees for success for many years to come.

        • Short Porch

          Not true. Edgar once had an 8 WAR season, and consistently had 5 WAR seasons:

          http://www.baseball-reference......ting_value::none

          Add Noesi, and the Yankees are losing value here even if Montero is only ever a DH.

          • Need Pitching

            Edgar also had consistently well over .400 OBP’s to go with very good power. Montero doesn’t project as that kind of OBP guy, though he may have more power than Edgar. Edgar’s overall offense is probably Montero’s ceiling, not his most likely production.

        • YankeeGrunt

          Noesi was a long reliever who may emerge as a back-end starter. Absent something unexpected (Nova-caliber unexpected) he wasn’t even a lock for our rotation, and there are two or three MLB-ready guys at Scranton (Phelps, Warren, Mitchell) who could EASILY have better careers than him. Expecting 2-3 WAR a year from him is silly. Stranger things have happened, especially in a cavernous ballpark, but nothing guaranteed about that.

      • CJ

        I would have traded montero for Matt moore with the same big league track record as montero.

    • chcmh

      I see what you are saying, but I have say, a 23 year-old superstar DH never made much sense to me. They worked hard to add tools to Montero and never got anywhere with him. He wasn’t a consideration either for the outfield or 1st base, so with all the jumping up and down about his booming bat, he always felt one-dimensional to me. Our rotation was suspect and now it’s less so. Pineda is not the complete answer, because those balls are going to fly out in the Stadium, and they flew out enough in big Safeco as it is, but Pineda is a big young pitcher, with good, hard stuff. Nice.

      Noesi will do well in Safeco, with those big dimensions–good for him– but he was never going to do big stuff in the Stadium, so you can’t really look at season he will have out there and say the Mariners got a better deal.

      You weren’t going to get a number one for Montero, unless you threw in at least two or more of our top prospects, so in a way, waiting around for that deal while Montero’s value slips might have proved a pretty dicey decision long term.

      Bottom line? Montero was expendable, rotation strengthened, get ready to work.

    • Genghis

      WAR is a bad tool for what the Yankees need, for the simple reason that the Yankees major problem isn’t winning the most games during a season, it’s progressing in the post season. The Yankees can pretty much be assured of making the post-season 80% of the time. But after that–

      – you shorten up your rotation, so that the importance of your 1-3 starters increases relative to your 4-5 starters.
      – a DH loses some value during the final series against the NL– you either can’t play him during away games, or lose a better defensive player
      – if you end up in the wild card and have a 1 game playoff to move on, the importance of that #2 pitcher increases tremendously

      In this context, getting a pitcher who is a legitimate 3-4 WAR player (easily a good number 3 and a reasonable #2) for a potential 5-6 WAR DH and a 2-3 WAR pitcher makes a lot of sense. Especially with a low minors guy who has the tools to be a 2-3 WAR pitcher or better thrown into the deal.

    • JD

      The WAR stuff is overblown. Some guys have a good WAR over a season simply because they face a lot of average opposition. We need people that can do it in the post-season againt tough competition and under pressure. That should be the metric. Tex has a great WAR over his career but is worthless in the post season for the Yanks. Chances are that a good pitcher will perform in the playoffs and if this kid is as good as some say, then: CC/Pinelda/Nova/kurada with the Yankee lineup is better than CC/Nova/kurada/? with the Yankee lineup and Montero.

  • Joe S

    Does a Burnett for Soriano swap with the Cubs now make sense? I think they would need to kick some cash in as well, but it would be a perfect fit in my opinion. Soriano could DH, play some infield in pinch and left field.

    • Short Porch

      I was literally just about to type the same thing. It’s not a bad idea, but I’d take Carlos Lee over Soriano. Fewer years and better production.

      • Dave203

        Carlos Pena puts up the same numbers really and could be obtained on a yr-to-yr contract. No advantage to trading for a crazy contract through 2014.

    • Dave203

      Not really since Soriano is owed a ton of money AND more importantly, signed through 2014. We don’t want any more crap contracts that extend into 2014. AJ is at least a FA after 2013 so won’t hurt us in getting under than 2014 payroll cap.

      • Joe S

        Yes but if they are willing to eat some of the contract it would make sense, I think Soriano would mash back at Yankee stadium.

        • Dave203

          What is the advantage of Soriano over Pena? Pena would crush the ball at Yankee Stadium too. Yet, we don’t have to carry his salary into 2014.

          Trading AJ for Soriano, they aren’t going to eat 50% of his contract unless we eat 50% of AJ’s. We’ll still likely be paying him close to $10 for 2014 which is money we don’t need to throw around. That is money we need to keep Grandy/Cano and still stay under the 189 cap.

          • Rigoleto

            The Cubbies are reportedly willing to eat almost all of Soriano’s contract, just like the Yankees with AJ. The advantage of Sori over Pena is that they are comps but Sori is a fan favorite in the Bronx with a good history with the team. I know casual fans who remember his name. That has value in and of itself. My question is: if the Cubbies are paying say 80% of his salary, does that money still count against the Yankees’s luxury cap ceiling?

            • Dave203

              Not the 80% of Soriano’s salary, but the 80% of AJ’s salary will that they would want us to eat in return. Net on net, it would still cost us about $10/yr on the cap. However, with Soriano, it goes through 2014 vs AJ through 2013. With the big 2014 picture in mind, that makes no sense for what we’d be getting in Soriano.

    • http://www.bronxbombersreport.com Craig Maduro

      I don’t want a thing to do with Soriano. Even though we all want Burnett gone, he could provide much more value to the Yankees. Perhaps Garcia moves to the ‘pen and Hughes starts in Triple-A leaving Burnett as the No. 5 starter. I don’t know, but if the Yanks are going to pay $16.5 million or something close to it, I’d rather get 180-200 innings out of it than a guy that is going to come off of the bench and consistently swing through sliders 3-6 inches off of the plate while providing garbage defense and no versatility.

    • Ted Nelson

      I think Andruw Jones is a much better option than Soriano. Get a LH platoon partner for Andruw. Alfonso Soriano is about worthless in my opinion.

    • tony

      Does anyone else think the yanks should sign Johnny Damon as a DH?
      He would be a perfect fit. Cheap, DH/outfield and he could rake with the right field 314 line like he did in 2009. Plus everyone loves him.

      • forensic

        The obsession fans have with former Yankees will never make sense to me. There are even still people asking for Matsui’s return…

        • Kevin Winters

          Once Montero was traded I heard more than one fan suggest bringing back Jorge.

      • Ted Nelson

        I think that he’s an option to consider along with others

      • Electrifying MC

        In all honesty, I’d rather have Vlad Guerrero as my DH than Damon. Half of Damon’s game was his speed, and that’s fading fasting. Vlad’s a better hitter and still has good pop despite the age . Look at what he did for Texas two years ago.

  • Undertaker’s Dong

    I’m a SAD Panda.
    I’m not that high on Pineda either, he needs a real third pitch.

    • Joe S

      Pineda is 22, has great command and fastball. Third pitch will come, as he was working on it second half of last year. This resulted in the dip of his numbers

      • forensic

        The third pitch will come? Just like it did for Hughes?

        • Dave203

          Hughes problem is not his 3rd pitch, its his ability to stay healthy. If Hughes stays healthy, he can still be a good pitcher.

          • Mister Delaware

            His problem when healthy is the lack of a 3rd pitch.

            • Dave203

              You do realize any pitcher’s “third pitch” only accounts for 10% of their pitches right? Hughes uses his “third pitch” as a slider/change at only 5%. THAT IS 5 PITCHES A GAME. Yes it is an issue, but it’s hardly the crux of the problem. If he could stay healthy, he could still be a middle rotation pitcher — with or without throwing his “third pitch” an extra 5 times a game.

              • forensic

                It’s not just how much he throws it, it’s the threat of it being there and the threat of how effective it could be.

                • Dave203

                  Right, that threat for 5 more pitches…

                • tim

                  Any major league hitter that has a pitchers third pitch that he uses 4-5 times a game in the back of his mind while batting is an idiot. This whole “the threat of a third pitch” stuff is bullshit.

                  • forensic

                    The point is that when it’s a threat it can advance into something used 10-15 times a game. If it’s not even a threat then it’s certainly not going to be an actuality.

                  • Dave203

                    It’s not crap if you don’t have a big time 1st/2nd pitch, but Pineda does. There are plenty of pitchers with 90 mph fastballs who need 4 pitchers to get batters out. When you have a 95+ fastball, you don’t need to have a 3/4th pitch in your rookie season.

                    • BK2ATL

                      Very true. Any batter sitting on a 3rd or 4th pitch, when this kid is humming pinpoint 98 mph fastballs is beaten before he steps in the batter’s box. The changeup will come, just as it did with Nova.

                      To even bring Hughes into this conversation or even Joba, fails to account for the fact that as SPs, they lost substantial velocity on their fastballs, hence needing a 3rd or 4th pitch. Plus Pineda is only 22, not 25. Plenty of time to grow. And we have him under control for 6 more years.

              • Mister Delaware

                Hughes’ issue is probably even more what his 3rd pitch is than his failure to develop a 3rd pitch. Fastball-curveball has to be the worst combo a two pitch starter can have.

            • ChooChoo

              When Colon was healthy last year, he basically excelled during many outings by throwing one pitch. A fastball with movement and location. The concern about Pineda should not be the need to have a great third pitch right now. His fastball is way up there right now.

              • Joey from Jersey

                “When Colon was healthy last year, he basically excelled during many outings by throwing one pitch.”

                Only if you consider a 4 seam fastball and a 2 seam fastball the same pitch. The movement and velocity are much different.

                • Sayid J.

                  The point still stands.

            • Need Pitching

              His problem when healthy is the lack of any effective secondary pitches.

              • ChooChoo

                No, wrong. When Bartolo stopped throwing 96 and began throwing 91-92, that’s when the shit hit the fan. At 96 or more with location and movement, he was a man among boys.

                • Need Pitching

                  I was talking about Hughes

            • Kevin Winters

              Thank you sir

        • ChooChoo

          Dream on if you really believe that Pineda and Hughes have the same fastball.

          • forensic

            I would love to know where in those two questions I said that.

            • ChooChoo

              The point is that you have a concern that Hughes hasn’t developed a third pitch when the reality is that his first pitch is piss poor.

      • Kevin Winters

        We’re still waiting for Hughes’ third pitch.

    • Dave203

      It was hit rookie season and he was fantastic for the entire first half. You can’t expect Halladay stuff out of a rookie. He will get there.

      • Ted Nelson

        Or he won’t get there. Not every impressive rookie pitcher immediately blossoms. In fact, I’d bet you the majority do not. I feel you have better odds with a hitter like Montero. Pineda isn’t much more than a NW to throw into the Nova, Banuelos, Betances, Hughes pile… much like Noesi was, but better than Noesi. Montero, to me, has a better chance of impact.

        • Dave203

          Using your same argument, where are the guarantees Montero will be Frank Thomas? There are no guarantees with prospects. That’s why they are trades all the time.

          You’re conclusion that Montero has a better chance to impact than Pineda is based on what exactly? His 18 games at the ML level compared to Pineda pitching an entire season already?

          • Cris Pengiucci

            More likely based on the fact that young hitters with true talent seem to do better than young pitchers with some talent. (Opinion, no stats to back this up) Montero was a higher-ranked prospect than Pineda. We’ll need to watch this. I do believe that over the length of their careers, Montero should provide more value to the M’s than Pineda does to the Yankees, but so much can happen in that time. It may take a long time to determine if anyone got the better of this deal.

            • Jose M. Vazquez..

              A player who is out there for every game instead of every five days always has a better chance to impact more.

            • BK2ATL

              Pineda already provides more value than Montero will or would of. We have a 22 yo ace-caliber SP to be mentored by CC. We now don’t really need to go all out on Hamels or Cain or Greinke if they his FA next yr and at $20+ mil/yr. We have a much better shot at that $189 mil number now. We save money, now have a solid rotation, and have a young talented SP under control.

              Montero is a DH. As much as I’d love to see him paired up with Cano for the future, he had to go in order for us to get anything of value in trade. He will shine in Seattle, considering they have that huge stadium and absolutely no offense. His bat was very needed and will go well with Ackley, Ichiro and Gutierrez.

              We can sign Pena or Chavez to get some LH production out of the DH position, maybe even both as we’ll still need an A-Rod backup as well.

              • Cris Pengiucci

                I’m sure the possibility to remain under the $189M number was top on the organization’s mind when this deal was made. A young #2 along with Kuroda on a one year deal giving the AAA arms another year of development time provides the opportunity for the team to set themselves up in the future. Keeping the pitching costs down is the key here. I guess they figure they can get offense less expensively. We’ll see.

          • Ted Nelson

            It’s based on hitters historically being far less volatile than pitchers. It’s based on Montero being a prototypical slugger with no holes in his swing, compared to Pineda being a two pitch P who shocked people with his early success before the league adjusted and may well have been a flash in the pan at that level of success. I said that I think the Yankees gave up more value than they got and should not have made the deal.

            We can’t predict the future, but we can project it.

            So please stop making things up. I did not say Montero is guaranteed to be Frank Thomas. I did not say that this is an awful deal that can’t turn out brilliantly for the Yankees. I said

            • Jose M. Vazquez..

              Hooray for that!

            • Dave203

              Not making things up and never said that you thought he’d be Frank Thomas. Try not to take everything personally.

              The fact is, predicting prospects is extremely difficult. You can base it off history if you want, but Montero’s ability has nothing to do with how anyone else did before him and the same applies for Pineda. There are risks and benefits with every trade.

              Fact is we needed a #2 pitcher which Pineda already can fill in as. Most expects (which are more credible than you or I) are saying he project to be a top of the rotation pitcher. These are the same experts who say Montero will be as good as well think. No reason to doubt either logic.

              Another fact is that hitting is MUCH EASIER to come by than pitching. We didn’t have to give up any top pitching prospects in the deal so we have kept our supply of pitching for the future. If we need a bat, they are typically readily available every offseason. Pitching on the hand, doesn’t come out as frequently.

              • Ted Nelson

                Predicting the future is about worthless in my opinion. It’s for the psychic hotline.

                What you want to do is project the future based on the probabilities of various outcomes. For this you do have to look at the past. These guys are performing the same physical activities as guy who came before them. How likely success at lower levels is to predict MLB success for those actions, small samples of MLB success, and how likely injury is… Totally relevant.
                Hitters are more peeve pant than Sp in large part because you need 9 hitters and only 5 SP.

                A 3 WAR #2 is not as valuable as a 5 WARhitter. That’s my whole point. I also think that you’re understating Noesi.

                • Need Pitching

                  “A 3 WAR #2 is not as valuable as a 5 WARhitter”

                  No kidding. Pineda does have an upside higher than 3 WAR. He was higher than that (3.4 fWAR) as a 22 year old rookie.
                  And Montero is no guarantee of a 5 WAR hitter, especially in his first couple of seasons. Given what his role would be with the Yankees (mostly DH, occasional C) and likelihood of negative fielding and baserunning values, for him to get to 5 WAR, he would have to hit better than Robbie did last year. Montero certainly has that long term potential, but it is far from a lock, especially early in his career.

              • Need Pitching

                Your last paragraph is exactly why I like this deal. I do think Montero probably has a slightly better chance of reaching his ceiling than Pineda does, but it is much easier to find DH production than high end starters, and given that, worth the slightly increased risk of a young pitcher not working out as compared to a young hitter.

            • Genghis

              Pineda was the #16 prospect on BA’s top 100. I don’t think too many people were shocked.

        • JD

          all things equal and taking last season as a barometer, are we more likely to win a WS because of Montero or Pinelda? IMO, even if we assumed that Montero catches (and does not end up as a DH that cannot play in the National league games). Montero is more likely to be the guy that helps the team get to the playoffs, but inthe playoffs it is about pitching.

  • Whizzo the Wize

    Whizzo tips his cap to the Cash man.

    Heat burns lumber any day, and Pineda has serious heat.

    Campos may be the steal of the deal for Whizzo, though. Control in the strike zone at 19 is a beautiful thing.

    Whizzo is a happy man.

    • Andy In Sunny Daytona

      The return of Whizzo the Wize is the biggest news of all. Have you seen The Man With 33 Fingers anywhere? I miss his link.

      /RAB History

      • Whizzo the Wize

        =)

  • Dave203

    As hard as it is to see Montero leave before we could see how good he would be, I think this was the right move. Pitcher is always harded to obtain than hitting. Trade Montero hurts, but getting 5 years of control of Pineda and a young prospect in Campos was a lot of return. Noesi, while valuable to the M’s, is replacable for the Yanks and quite expendable.

    I am very pleased we didn’t bite on the Felix rumor I heard associated with this. I believe from Heyman, Seattle asked for Montero/Banuelos/Betances + more for Felix. As good as Felix is, you can’t dump your entire farm on 1 player. Not to mention, if our goal is really to get under $189 million by 2014, that is not helping.

    This trade lets us think about Hammels (if available), but doesn’t force our hand. It may allow us to have a true 1/2 punch and keep both Grandy/Cano going into 2014 while staying under out budget.

    I like this deal a lot and think we can find stop gaps for Montero’s loss of power. We still have A LOT of hitting in the short-term and plenty of prospects if we need to trade for hitting down the road.

  • Gerald Williams

    I have to say losing Montero does hurt. I was looking forward to a full season of him this year. With that being said… Pineda is a beast! I’m not sure if he can make the adjustments needed to continue pitching like he did in the first half (he carried my fantasy squad for a while last year). I hope he can. I think we all know Montero will be a great hitter, but there’s no doubt Pineda can develop into something really nice with 5 years of low cost team control. Kuroda on a one year deal is a slam dunk! I feel MUCH better about the staff now. I’m interested to see what happens with AJ and Hughes. I think Garcia gets the #5 spot without a doubt (even though I like Hughes’ upside more). This move gets us where we need this year and opens up a lot of possibilities for next year!

    Now… about that DH “hole”… I agree having the spot open to rotate guys in and out is not a terrible thing, BUT I WOULD LOVE PRINCE IN PINSTRIPES! I doubt it would happen, but that would be the most lethal lineup ever assembled. 45 bombs a year in NYS would be the norm for Prince. What do you all think about Pena? I’m not sure I like his dismal BA and K rate. I say get Prince, or leave the spot open. I’m interested to hear what you all think.

    I couldn’t sleep last night after all this news! So much for our boring offseason! Ca$h Ninja strikes again… let’s hope Pineda is worth it.

    • Gerald Williams

      Also, I will miss Noesi. He did a nice job last year, but Nova has a lot more upside in my eyes.

      CC
      Kuroda
      Pineda
      Nova
      Garcia/Hughes/AJ

      Jeter
      Grandy
      Cano
      Prince/Jones/Rotate
      Tex
      ARod
      Swish
      Martin
      Gardy

      Bench
      Chavez/Nunez/King of Fist Pumps (let’s trade him with AJ and bring up Romine)/Jones or Random OF

    • BK2ATL

      I’ve already stated my approval of this deal and my take on Montero. Noesi doesn’t really hurt us. We still have Banuelos and Betances one year away, plus Warren and Phelps at the ready. Noesi would’ve been in AAA for us. He will probably join the Seattle rotation in 2012. I’d rather have Nova than Noesi, since Nova is already more of a proven commodity and improving.

      Hughes? It’s put up or shut time.

      Selfishly NOW, yeah, let’s see how low the Fielder value drops. Another stealth Cashman move would solidify us in the WS hunt. Fielder as a 1 yr DH…..whoa nelly….That a pipe dream, but I think there’s another move in play as now, we’re suddenly very pitching rich and in need of a bat.

      Funny enough, 2-3 days ago, we were arguing about Edwin Jackson hahahaha. No one saw this coming. Pineda AND Kuroda. They kept this as tight to the vest as the Osama raid. (j/k)

  • CubanC

    Look, Pineda is no ace. Not yet anyway. But he could be. Montero is also far from a finished product, and he doesn’t really have a position. At least not on the Yankees. This is a good deal for both teams. They both acquire the type of young player they desperately need. Only time will tell with the trade. From a needs stand point it makes sense, the Yankees certainly got a valuable piece for another. What is it everyone always says when you make a trade? If you want to trade for talent it’s going to hurt. It sucks to lose Montero but the pay off could be huge. We’ll just have to wait and see.

    As for Hughes… unfortunately I see him being moved back to the pen. No real evidence for this, just a feeling. Not to re-hash the problems they’ve had with “The Big 3″ but they really fouled up that whole situation. Hopefully they’ve learned from their mistakes and are a better organization for it.

    • Kevin Winters

      Not to re-hash the problems they’ve had with “The Big 3? but they really fouled up that whole situation. Hopefully they’ve learned from their mistakes and are a better organization for it.

      ————————

      The same ppl are making the same decisions so I doubt it.

      • toad

        So you don’t think they might have learned some things, and will continue making the same mistakes, whatever they were?

  • Jose M. Vazquez..

    I don’t like this trade. I will go on record saying it. Pineda is young and was good for half a season. Will he be good for a full season and playoffs? As a die hard Yankee fan, I certainly hope so. Now we have no young right handed power hitters on the team or on the farm. There was not much difference between Pineda and Noesi except that Pineda wasgiven a chance for a full season. I don’t expect the Yankees to keep any of the other remaining pitching prospects. We need a catcher who can carry his weight. My suggestion is that they get Wright from the Mets so that they can use Arod at DH most of the time. You can use the prospects for that since they will never get a chance with the big club.

    • Dave203

      You’re questions Pineda based upon his ROOKIE season. You can’t expect him to have his first half numbers for 180 innings his FIRST YEAR in the big leagues. The fact he pitched as well as he did for the first half of the year is impressive by itself for a rookie.

    • billbybob

      There was not much difference between Pineda and Noesi? Are you serious? Pineda is 6’7″ beast with one of the best heaters in the game. Noesi is nice, but he’s no Pineda.

      • TCMiller30

        and he was a better prospect.. and he’s younger.. and he’s more proven

      • Joey from Jersey

        I agree with billybob. Pineda = Noesi is an crazy comment. I guess its only true if you fail to consider the difference in how hard they throw, k/9, success at the MLB level (albeit small samples), physical frame, and just about every scouting report out there.

      • Rainbow Connection

        Stop being mean!

  • Adam B

    I wonder if Cashman is keeping his eye on any 3rd basemen… Might be the way to go to keep AROD healthy.

    • Short Porch

      Honestly I start thinking Sandoval. What would it take to get that done?

      • Ted Nelson

        The Giants have a weak offense… Seems unlikely that they’ll trade away a very good young offensive player without a huge return. A return the Yankees probably can’t offer without much upper level offensive talent. I don’t see the Giants waiting for Bichette or Williams when they should be contending now. Maybe 3 teams.

      • Jose M. Vazquez..

        Sandoval is a lousy defensive player,he can’t run, his arm is weak and his bat at times is suspect.

      • Adam B

        I don’t see the Giants trading Sandoval… Honestly, Aramis would have been the guy… no 3rd base types that fit that I can see. Better off going for right handed DH.

        • Need Pitching

          seems like a LH DH would make more sense. The Yankees offense was much better vs. LHP than RHP last season. Pena would be an ideal addition as a RHP mashing power platoon DH, but is likely too expensive for the Yankees. LH DH would play against RHP, then rotate ARod etc at DH with Nunez playing against LHP.

        • MannyGeee

          I think the Giants know theres a many a kink in Sandovals armor and would get rid of him in a NY minute if they could find a sucker to grab him for some nice pieces.

          That said, I think 20 other GMs know that Sandoval is a lot of smoke and no fire, and would stay clear. Shit, if Prince Fielder is the much much much better hitting version of Sandoval and hes still looking for work, what does that say about the Panda?

          • Andrew 518

            Living on the West Coast right now, watch a bunch of Giants games….

            Sandoval = no answer of any kind except for a high risk of stupid hats being worn

    • http://www.bronxbombersreport.com Craig Maduro

      I’ve been talking about David Wright for months (maybe not necessarily on RAB tho). I think he’s got plenty to offer and a change of scenery could do him a lot of good. Not only that, but I don’t imagine the price would be THAT high. What do I know though?

    • tomaconda

      Trade the farm for a 30 year old Wright?

      • Jose M. Vazquez..

        If you are not going to ever give those kids a chance, does it make any difference?

      • http://www.bronxbombersreport.com Craig Maduro

        I don’t know if they would have to trade the farm.

        Besides, he’s 29.

  • forensic

    I’m still not really on board with the trade portion. I think they should’ve gotten more for Montero, but my opinion of Pineda I’m sure is being affected by fellow two-pitch failures in Hughes and Burnett and continuous franchise young pitcher failures including Chamberlain. They had to trade Montero, largely because of the manager, but I think there had to be something a little closer to a sure-thing they could’ve included him in. Looking further, I’m probably not quite giving Pineda the full credit he deserved for some of his numbers last year and his MiL track record, though I think more people are going nuts calling him an ace and possibly future HOFer. But, there are still some concerning factors, such as his two pitches and splits (home/road, 1st/2nd half, righty/lefty, and GB/FB). I also feel that suddenly Montero is being bashed (the very same Red Sox trait that everyone here makes fun of when they trade people) as easy to replace because he’s a DH. There are plenty of teams who employ terrible DH’s, and the Yankees may end up with a similar issue just in that the terrible part would be the utility IFer they play too much (either because of money or age/injuries of current players). They just have to hope he somehow learns a third pitch better than Hughes and can continue his improvement, while also hoping that Montero doesn’t embarrass them and their manager by actually becoming Miguel Cabrera (without the schmuckiness).

    As for Kuroda, yes it’s a one year deal, but I still find it difficult to believe he’ll be very good here next year. Hopefully I’m underrating his pitches, but I don’t buy it at the moment. If you’re going to do one, I would’ve preferred Oswalt who I believe is a better bet to pitch better while also a better bet to get hurt. I go with the higher risk/reward part and if he’s hurt then you get a spot open for your youth depth, which is once again pushed back at least one more year. I also disagree that it’s a no risk move because at $10 million they’re not just going to release him in May or June even if he keeps struggling and costing them games.

    Overall, I think I need to wait to see how they address the DH/offense before making a full judgement, though I am starting to get concerned about how many lineup spots they are almost punting offense on. Also related is me not being big on Martin’s future prospects and being even lower on Romine’s. I also wonder if they now won’t try to spend $150 million on pitchers leaving their prime next offseason with another roster spot taken and try to get Banuelos in there or what.

    • forensic

      I also forgot to mention that losing Noesi is being vastly underrated by lots of people. He would’ve been an important piece to the staff. Just because he doesn’t throw 95 and isn’t 6’6″ doesn’t mean he’s terrible.

      • http://www.bronxbombersreport.com Craig Maduro

        I don’t think anyone said that Noesi was terrible. Perhaps we are underrating his inclusion a bit, but look at the Yankees’ depth. They have a handful of pitchers in Noesi’s mold. Not only that, but they acquired Jose Campos who, based on scouting reports, looks like he could very well end up being a Noesi “clone” – if not an upgrade.

        • forensic

          I don’t even consider a 19 YO in short season ball when considering this stuff. All the other players in this deal could as well be FA’s before he’s even ready for the majors, if he’s ever ready. It’s not even worth the time to include them in my considerations. I care about things that will/can affect the major league team and results.

          As for the other pitchers in his mold, that could be true, but they have shown no inclination to give any of them a ball in a non-september MLB game while they actually did that with Noesi and he had at least a modicum of success. That means something, especially with the overloaded (in terms of number of personnel) pitching staff.

          • Damian

            Well he isn’t major league ready at this point, obviously, but just because he threw in low A ball last year doesn’t make him a nonprospect or not even worth mentioning in analyzing this trade. He’s a prospect, and a good one at that. The value that he contributes to the organization is certainly debatable, but the fact that he does bring value is not.

          • Sweet Dick Willie

            I don’t even consider a 19 YO in short season ball when considering this stuff.

            Two things:

            1) Cashman obviously does, and
            2) You are different from the vast number of RAB commenters who still skewer Cashman for including Arodys in the 2nd Vazquez deal.

      • vin

        Funny thing is, he’s 6′-3″ and was averaging 94 mph in the second half of last season. He’s a solid prospect through and through.

      • Short Porch

        He’s not being underrated at all. Mike himself says he wouldn’t be surprised to look up and see Noesi having a better year statistically than Pineda.

        • forensic

          Yes, Mike said that. If you read through last night’s threads, many people there are not saying anything close to that.

          • Need Pitching

            better year statistically does not mean better considering schedule and park factors… Noesi is a solid prospect with possible #3 starter upside (more likely #4). Pineda is a great prospect with #1 upside (more likely #2). The Yankees are loaded with mid-back of the rotation options as is, losing Noesi doesn’t really hurt that considering they added two pitchers (Kuroda and Pineda) that will both very likely outperform what Noesi would do for the Yankees this year

            • Jose M. Vazquez..

              So schedule and park factors are good for Pineda but not for Noesi.

              • Need Pitching

                no. I’m sure Pineda’s numbers were helped at least somewhat by pitching there. I’m just saying Pineda is definitely a better pitcher with a much higher upside than Noesi. Even if Noesi manages to put up slightly better stats this year (and I don’t think he will), it doesn’t in any way mean he would have put up those numbers with the Yankees.

    • Bo Knows

      Clayton Kershaw is a two pitch pitcher, so was Beckett prior to 2010, When James Shields came up he was all fb/change-up, David Price is basically all FB, hell even King Felix was a 2 pitch work horse until his 3rd year in the league.

      Young pitchers with powerful FB’s are usually 2 trick ponies, until they gain more experience.

      Pineda’s command is better than Burnett ever had or will ever have,and his raw stuff is better than Hughes’. His (Pineda’s) fb in all scouting reports I’ve found have noted that it has natural sink, and his minor league gb/fb rate was consistently above average and his last 3 months seem to support that he is a 40% 45% gb kind of guy

      • forensic

        Pineda – 2.9% 3rd pitch

        Kershaw – more than 15% 3rd and 4th pitch
        Beckett – needed more than that to stop people here from laughing at him
        Shields – more than 20% 3rd and 4th pitch
        Hernandez – more than 15% 3rd and 4th pitch
        Price – about 15% 3rd and 4th pitch

        Someone else last night did this better than me, but those perceptions about them being 2-pitch pitchers aren’t exactly right. Hell, even Hughes has used his 3rd pitch more than Pineda.

        • Dave203

          That is what ROOKIES do – reply on their 1st pitch especially when it is a 95+ fastball. How everyone keeps comparing Pineda to pitchers who have been developing for 3-4+ years in the major leagues is crazy. Let the kid develop over the same period of time and then complain if he doesn’t have a well defined 3rd/4th pitch.

        • Bo Knows

          In 2011 Kershaw averaged his FB 66% of the time, his slider 24.6%

          in 2010 he averaged his fb 71% of the time and his curve 20%

          ’09 fb:69.9% curve: 18.3%

          he’s a two pitch pitcher

          • forensic

            I love the irony of using 3 different pitches to say he’s a 2 pitch pitcher.

            • Bo Knows

              How is it ironic? He’s never used more than 2 pitches in a season…he scrapped the curve to use a slider.

        • Dave203

          Also, your 2.9% BOGUS stat is off. Depending on the site:
          ESPN = 5% changups
          Fangraphs = 6.3% changeups

          Where is your BOGUS stat coming from?

          • forensic

            fangraphs has 2.9% from pitchfx. But sure, call it bogus.

            And as for your other comment about that being what rookies do, most of those guys are somewhat similar today to what they were as rookies.

            • Dave203

              Right… Directly below the actual pitch type stat which is 6.3% showing exactly how off the PitchF/X system can be. Thanks…

              • forensic

                Or maybe the people calling the ‘actual’ pitch type stat are off and the pitchfx is right. But, it’s not worth it anymore. I even caved a little on my opinion of him but it’s like if you don’t call him an ace it’s just not enough. Time for some sleep I think…

            • Mykey

              Really?

  • Gil L

    I think the analysis for this trade is simple:
    If the yanks really saw montero as a top hitting CATCHER, this trade doesn’t happen.
    I believe it is clear that having been scrutinized by the entire scouting corps of the organization – montero was not deemed as a real catcher. And that renders this trade an absolute must…

    • Rod

      Bingo. A catcher who can mash is an incredibly rare thing. The Yankees obviously don’t think he can stick and having a young kid at DH when the Yanks have six more years of A-Rod is less than ideal.

    • Tags

      I totally agree Gil, I think the Yanks were’t confident Montero would catch, and with the catching depth in the minors were willing to let him go. As much potential as Pineda has Im still not crazy about this deal. Having seen Montero in Trenton and during his call up last year I was dying to see the damage he would do in 2012. But they did get a young cost control possible stud so I’m hoping for the best. Let’s hope Gary Sanchez and JR Murphy continue to develop.

    • chcmh

      That’s it. That’s on the money. Montero’s value was limited. Unless he turns out to be new kind of player, a start to finish dedicated career DH. Was the idea we were going to carry this guy for season after season as a DH? He’s a young kid! Can you imagine all that energy pent in the dugout game after game. Posada, a twenty year veteran, couldn’t hack the boredom of waiting to get in the game for a swing here and there, and don’t you think Arod is more likely our full time DH in waiting?

  • whitey

    I’m really warming up to the trade. I’m not so sure about Kuroda.

  • Bo Knows

    After sleeping on this deal I still find it a fair trade we got a stud young pitcher with an insane ceiling and a high floor and a great prospect. I will miss Jesus but considering who we got back, the pain is lessened.

    I wish him luck (not against the yankees of course)and look forward to seeing him in pinstripes….in 6 years

  • tomaconda

    Great trade. Goes to show that again Cashman waited like a fox and then pounced like a tiger. Need one more bat now. Andruw could get a few more ab but that weakens the bench. Prince would be ridiculous in YS and you would be getting his prime years but its more likely that the Yankees will be looking for a filler piece rather than a 20mil+++ contract. Cespedes would maybe make more sense now. Also hope Hughes gets the chance to start and if not in New York then maybe in Scranton until needed.

    • NRW Yankee

      Well i´m not sure if I like the Montero/Pineda trade, but I sure like the Fox/Tiger stuff in your posting. ;-)

      • tomaconda

        Thanks. I think you will like this trade in the long run. Good pitching is harder to find than good hitting. If Montero was a good defensive catcher too I would have a harder time giving him up. He at best was Mike Pepperoni Piazza or Edgar Martinez. Id take an ace any day over either.

  • Slu

    I like the trade. Montero may be good, but offense is easier to get on the open market than pitching. And you have to give up something to get something. To me, this trade meets the needs of both teams. Prospect huggers may be upset, but this is one of the things prospects are for. Plus they keep the Bs, and it is possible that Phil is in the bullpen and AJ is not in the rotation. This is a great day.

  • Ted Nelson

    I’m not sure Pineda is a steal compared to Latos and Gio. Montero is way better than the prospects traded for those guys, in my opinion. That’s not just being a homer… Dude was a better prospect and has already had ridiculous MLB success in a tiny sample. Gio especially was traded for B prospects and a recent draft pick in the low minors. Noesi is more at the level of the better guys given up for those two.
    And Pineda has only one year track record, making him more volatile. Sure it gives him more upside, but also more downside.

    In terms of competition, I don’t know how much worse the AL West is being a pitcher on Seattle than AL East is being a P on NYY. The Rangers are about as good offensively as the Red Sox. The Angels just added Pujols and could be about as good offensively as Toronto. Oakland are ridiculous patsies, but Tampa and Baltimore aren’t offensive monsters. A Seattle SP doesn’t get to face the Ms and a Yankee SP doesnKt have to face the Yankees. I’d say NYY P has it a bit tougher comp wise and tougher parks, but I don’t think the difference is so ridiculous that if Noesi performs better he’s definitely a worse pitcher. I believe that there’s a real possibility Noesi is only slightly worse than Pineda. I think Pineda has a lot more upside, I just think there’s a good chance that the difference between the two is not worth Montero even accounting for Campos.

    Good point on the closed lip nature of these things. This is why I constantly urge people not to believe every rumor that they hear.

    • Andrew

      I don’t understand how you can point to Pineda’s limited track record as a negative while also saying that Noesi isn’t that far from Pineda’s level. I believe last night you chose to point to Hector’s sustained minor league success; but Pineda has a sterling minor league history and put together a #2 starter-caliber season as a rookie, which Noesi has not come close to yet.

      You are one of the few people on the internet comfortable enough to project him as highly as a starter, putting him on the level of one of the best young pitchers in the game. There seems to be quite a leap of faith being made based on very little actual proof. Minor league stats? Pineda’s are great too. Noesi is more of a complete pitcher? His arsenal of secondary pitches is widely considered mediocre by evaluators, and he has barely been tested at the major league level as more than a mop-up reliever.

      Pineda struck out 180 in a season despite only having 2 pitches. So it’s okay to assume Noesi will thrive with so-so secondary pitches that haven’t been touted as plus at any point in his career, but not that Pineda will improve as he adjusts to hitters in the majors, while using 2 plus offerings and potentially working in a 3rd pitch?!

      This all reads as a Yankees-prospect-centric projection in order to justify not liking giving up young players that you followed and were attached to. Your feelings don’t sync up with what much of the scouts, evaluators, quoted execs, etc. perceive based on both stats and performance analysis.

      A swap of Montero and Pineda is the key, and they are both flawed, highly talented young players that fit the needs of the two teams that swapped them. Noesi isn’t the type of arm that swings this deal in favor of the Mariners, no matter what you’d like to believe.

      • CMP

        The Noesi love is ridiculous. The Yankees have a whole bunch of Noesi’s in AA and AAA. If the trade was Noesi for Santos straight up I’d be in favor of the trade. Give me the guy with a chance to be a front end starter any time. You can always get a guy off the scrap heap to fill the back of the rotation like they did last year with Garcia and Colon.

        This was a great trade and a major step towards building a staff of aces with ManBan ans Betances waiting in the wings and Hamels and Cain potential FA’s next year like they had when they were a dynasty with staffs that included Cone, Pettitte, Wells, Duque, Clemens,etc

        • Andrew

          I can understand valuing Noesi because he has broken through at the big league level and seemed serviceable. And it’s no given the guys that are similar to him in the system will be able to do the same. But it’s still even an unknown whether Noesi can be a full-time major league starter, regardless of where he slots in number-wise in a rotation. Putting him in the company of Pineda based on largely conjecture, I can’t get behind. I think Noesi was helpful depth for 2012 and beyond, and maybe he takes the same path as Nova where he breaks into the rotation and puts a stamp on a spot. But Pineda has already broken through and has far more upside as a starter.

    • tim

      You know who else had ridiculous success in a tiny sample – Shane Spencer. Not saying Montero = Spencer but come on.

    • Esteban

      Noesi is more at the level of the better guys given up for those two

      According to who?

    • CMP

      Noesi ceiling is a #4 starter according to almost every scouting report I’ve read. Pineda ceiling is a #1 starter. Pineda already has has success as a MLB starter and he’s 2 years younger. To think that Noesi is going to end up being “only slightly worse” Pineda is ridiculous and is the equivalent of saying Austin Romine is going to end up being only slightly worse than Montero.

  • Chris in Durham

    I think Cespedes now becomes a real option. Opposite field power. Big bat. Possible RFer once Swish is a FA. DH time until then. The money for Cespedes comes when the Yanks dump AJ. I bet they can save $10M over 2012-13.

    • tomaconda

      I would love it!!!

    • Tags

      He’s shows signs of having problems hitting off speed pitches already in the few Dominican League games he’s played this past week. Comparing him to Willy Mo Pena.

  • http://twitter.com/themanchine The Manchine

    Not to re-hash the problems they’ve had with “The Big 3? but they really fouled up that whole situation. Hopefully they’ve learned from their mistakes and are a better organization for it.
    This.

    I HATE seeing Jesus leave, but this is an AWESOME move.

    Now I’d love to see Cash get a 3B and shift A-Rod to DH but we all know that’s not going to happen, yet.

    • Dave203

      Agree. AROD is really the Yanks long-term DH. As soon as we can find a suitable 3B alternative, this deal gives us the ability to move AROD to DH to stay healthy.

      It may not happen full-time for 2012, but you can be assured that the bench will play a more active role subbing in for vets like AROD/Jeter/Tex/etc to keep them all fresh. With a DH spot open, we can still put them in the lineup while giving them a rest.

      Here’s to hoping this can help AROD stay healthy and return to 30/100.

    • Hobs

      Why? A-Rod looked pretty damn good at 3B in the playoffs.

      • http://www.bronxbombersreport.com Craig Maduro

        The Yankees need his bat more than his glove in my opinion. They need him healthy for close to a full season which would be easier to do if he DH’s most of the time.

    • http://www.bronxbombersreport.com Craig Maduro

      I wouldn’t sell that idea short so soon. Maybe it’s still a year or two off, but at the same time if they can keep A-Rod healthy and productive over the course of 500-550 ABs by DH’ing him more, I think that would be massive. It would almost be like acquiring 1.5 big bats (the 3B and the “real” A-Rod).

  • Jason

    Sorry, can’t help but scream at the baseball America article that says
    “the Yankees’ rotation could be set for years to come, with Phil Hughes, Joba Chamberlain and A.J. Burnett among those fighting for the last two spots…Hiroki Kuroda, further crowding the rotation picture but also possibly pushing Hughes and Chamberlain back to the bullpen, where both have thrived in the past.”

    Not only do they think Joba is being considered as a starter, they forget he had TJ surgery and won’t be ready until mid-season, AND they forget about Sweaty Freddy!

    UGH

    • Ted Nelson

      Mid-season is pretty pessimistic. He went down pretty early in the season and 12 months is a common recovery time for TJS. Josh Johson was back in more like 11 I believe and Tim Hudson was like 12 or 13.

  • forensic

    It’s hilarious how people suddenly think Fielder is going to show up. They just had to get special approval for $10 million, so suddenly ANOTHER at least $20 million is suddenly going to appear, for several years??? Geez.

    That’s part of the problem with the trade, where do they get the money for a DH now? Do they spare enough for a Carlos Pena to play half-time platoon? Is that even worth it with all the warts he has in his offensive game? Tough to figure out where a DH comes from and where they take care of the number of pitchers almost guaranteed to be on an MLB staff.

    • Dave203

      Forget Fielder — it’s not happening unless he signs a 1-2 yr deal which is isn’t going to sign — even if we offer him 25 million a season. The fact is, we have hitting. We have more hitting than most all but 2-3 teams likely. With the DH spot open, we may get more out of everyone this year than ever before due to rest. I’m not saying don’t go after a DH like Pena (who could sub at 1B with Tex), but no need to go nuts and sign anyone who kills the 2014 cap.

    • CJ

      Yanks were trying for king Felix at $18 million. So they have the $ flexibilty willingness to add. If not fielder definitely Pena or Damon. Also they will have to move 2 of Freddy AJ Hughes.

      • Need Pitching

        willing to add for elite pitcher like Felix doesn’t necessarily mean willing to add for DH, especially since Kuroda likely would not have been signed if they acquired Felix. I’d say no chance on Fielder, Pena unlikely but possible, Damon realistic financially, but not the best fit for their needs.

  • BK2ATL

    This is a great trade and signing for the Yanks. If you can’t see it, pay attention.

    Pineda is what we hope Betances turns into, same as what they said about Austin Jackson for Curtis Granderson. Granderson only needed a tweak to his batting stance and approach and he almost was the AL MVP. Pineda needs to work on his changeup, something we saw Nova do effectively last year. They probably think that they can do the same.

  • Ro

    Any way you slice it, this was a necessary trade and a good one at that.

    As for the commenters who think that Oswalt and his questionable back would have been a better signing than Kuroda are misinformed and flat out wrong. He’d be on the DL by May 15th.

    As for the current rotation. There isn’t a chance , not even 1% that Garcia moves to the bullpen. His stuff doesn’t translate well out there and frankly, this is exactly the reason we didn’t see it last season. Garcia is our #5 in the rotation no matter how hard you look it over, thinking all the possibilities. It’s already done. As for Hughes, no chance he is sent down either.

    My money is that either Hughes or Burnett or both are traded in the next 3-4 days. No question about it. There are still teams starved for pitching.

    The Yankees have a lot of flexibility at the moment and the next week should be very interesting for all us in Yankee land. They have 15 pitchers, including all young minor arms. Joba coming back. No DH. Do the math. It’s going to be a busy week for us. I’m excited.

    • http://twitter.com/themanchine The Manchine

      I disagree about Freddy. His weak stuff & good control fit perfectly into the long-man/mop-up role IMO.

      As for Hughes, no chance he is sent down either.
      Why is that? He has an option left and easily takes Noesi’s place in the AAA rotation and as the first call-up allowing the B’s more time to PROPERLY develop.

      • Ro

        Wrong. Freddy won’t set foot in the bullpen. Bank on it. I’m willing to bet $250.00 right now on that. Wrong about Hughes too. Yeah, sure he may have an option left, but it ain’t happening. You need to understand the business of this and really understand what I am saying. Hughes to the bullpen is far more likely and even then, I’d say there is less than a 10% chance of that happening. We have surplus now, it will be traded wisely. Just relax and wait and see. Many people on here need to take a step back, take a deep breath (channel your inner Yoda if you need too) and think about the business of this. I’m having a hard time speculating a trade for who however.

        • http://twitter.com/themanchine The Manchine

          I’m having a hard time speculating a trade for who however.

          Exactly. He has no trade value at the moment.
          What “business” do you speak of? They owe him the same coin no matter where he pitches (rotation, pen, AAA). Pitching depth is to be ACQUIRED not sent away just for the sake of it.

        • themgmt

          I will take that bet, twice on Sunday, three times on Monday. You’re so convinced of it that it’s bizarre.

    • http://www.bronxbombersreport.com Craig Maduro

      I’m not as sold on a Phil Hughes trade as you are. Not yet at least. It would simply be foolish to move him at this point. He has no trade value and the Yanks wouldn’t get anything worth mentioning in such a deal. Better to send him to Triple-A, let him start and then bring him back when he’s needed. I don’t know if that is what they’ll do, but it is definitely a better option than trading him.

      • Ro

        Fair enough. That’s why my guess is that Hughes is long man, bullpen, 6th starter. I do not think he goes to AAA. They didn’t do it last year when he had his dead arm. It won’t happen now, especially now.

        My money is on Burnett being moved in the next 72 hours for another bad contract hitter. The question is who?

    • Gerald Williams

      So many possibilities now! Can’t wait to see how it all goes down!

  • http://twitter.com/themanchine The Manchine

    Rothschild dealing with Pineda instead of Eiland/Hughes/Joba/IPK should make a BIG difference in this equation.

  • JoeyA

    Its so funny to me how some people on here talk about Pineda like he’s a 2 pitch 3-4 SP. if this guy was on the Yankees & put up the #s he did at age 22, he’d be UNTOUCHABLE.

    People sound like Banuelos is more a sure thing than Pineda.

    • Jonathan

      If he put up those #’s in YSIII in the AL East he’d be untouchable. But he didn’t. He IS a 2 pitch pitcher with a problem with lefties and giving up home runs. He went from a ballpark in a weaker division perfectly tailored to him to the best division in baseball and a park that’s tough on righty fly ball guys.

      • IVoted4Kodos

        He really didn’t struggle against lefties as much as many people seem to think. His HR rate was actually lower against them (0.84/9 vs. 1.05/9), his walk rate was lower (7% vs. 8.9%) and he got more grounders. He had a 2.96 K/BB against lefties vs. 3.30 against righties. His overall line against lefties was .237/.296/.357 compared to .184/.261/.326 against righties. He has a definite platoon split, but many good pitchers do. To say that he struggled against lefties is misleading. He was better against righties for sure, but he certainly wasn’t lit up by lefties.

        • Need Pitching

          This. A .653 OPS against is hardly a problem with lefties. By that standard, CC has a major problem with righties, with a .709 OPS against. And King Felix has a problem with lefties as well with a .662 OPS against.

  • candyforstalin

    how about phil hughes for david murphy?

    • http://twitter.com/themanchine The Manchine

      Why????? As part of a package for David WRIGHT hell yea. Murphy? PFFT.

      • candyforstalin

        salary neutral, good vs rhp, decent fielder. for, well, phil hughes.

    • LiterallyFigurative

      I actually like that deal. Murphy would be a good DH fit, and Hughes is at a stage now where he’s at best a #5 on this team. Let Murphy and Jones platoon DH. Nunez as the ultra utility INF. Cervelli backup C.

  • Johnny O

    Like the deal on paper. Who knows how it will turn out in reality??? Oh wait, almost everyone on this comments section knows EXACTLY how it will turn out in reality. For me, I’m going to sit back and enjoy watching Pineda pump fastballs. I’ll still root for Montero too. LIke the Beckett/Hanley trade, this doesn’t have to be a zero-sum game.

    Interested to see where Mike puts Campos in the prospect ranking. I’d say below Bentaces and Williams and maybe Romine but above Bichette and Phelps/Warrern. Considering the quality of the Mariner’s SP prospects, glad to see he was so close to the top. Charleston 2012 SALLY champs!!!

  • OMG! Bagels!

    As much as I like Montero and thought his call up was exciting, he’s never going to be the catcher the Yanks need him to be. You need pitchers that are worth something and catchers that are worth something.Bats that can produce is not a concern the Yanks usually have (except when those that can, don’t).

    I think it’s a solid trade and Cash shows us his Ninja skills once again. Which makes me sleep better at night.

  • Jonathan

    I don’t like the trade at all for numerous reasons. One, we were one offseason away from most likely being able to just buy an ace and still have Jesus. I mean if we kept Jesus and signed Kuroda, there isn’t much difference in that team and the one we have now. We also may be out of the Hamels/Greinke/Cain etc race now that we’re going to need to find another bat fairly soon and won’t have much rotation space with CC/Pineda/Nova/ManBan and the rest of the AAA arms/AJ/Hughes. Who knows what’s going to happen with Swisher, Granderson will probably never touch those #’s again and ARod/Tex, while still capable of putting of good numbers for their age and position are starting to become offensive disappointments.

    I also have major questions about Pineda and his transition. This isn’t just the normal moving from one bad division to the best problem. This is a guy who is an EXTREME fly ball pitcher who had HR problems in a bad division and while getting to pitch in a canyon while also getting to pitch in Oakland/Angels Stadium who has trouble with lefties since he’s a 2 pitch pitcher moving to the toughest division in the sport and will have the short porch to deal with. I just don’t give up Montero for anything but a sure thing. And despite his hype and great start to last year the guy has some major flaws. There are flaws that can get fixed but AJ and Hughes have showed it’s not easy to pull a change up out of thin air and be 2 pitch righties in that stadium. I was also pretty high on Noesi being able to do what Nova did this year but with less GBs and more K’s. I wouldn’t be surprised at all to see Pineda put up a 4+ ERA next year. Considering we could have just signed Kuroda and Oswalt while keeping Montero and then gone after a top flight SP next year in FA…I don’t like this gamble.

    I see at as completely unnecessary and have no clue where a new injection of offense is going to come from anytime soon. That infield is set for a while and not getting any better and we’re not sure offensively what we’ll get out of Gardner and will have trouble replacing Granderson’s year. And what are we going to do in RF? Sign Swisher for his mid to late 30’s years? We’re looking at turning into the Phillies with a worse rotation and better bullpen..a team with a bunch of injury plagued and old stars with no infusion of youth coming on the offensive end in sight. I like a team with Kuroda and Montero a lot better than a team with Kuroda and Pineda. This move reeks of desperation after years of being patient and leaves me with no clue of wtf the front office is thinking about for the future. I’m sure i’m one of the people on the lower end of liking the deal and Pineda becoming a #1 workhouse is definitely possible and I probably wouldn’t be surprised if it happened, but I wouldn’t be risking Montero for it.

    CC
    Nova
    Kuroda
    Garcia
    Hughes/AJ/Noesi

    with ManBan and a stable of capable AAA arms and the 2012 FA class looming is more than capable of winning the division with the bullpen and offense we had. I’m willing to bet that one of Noesi/ManBan/Betances or a 2012 FA would be able to at the very least match Pineda and they were so close. I never envisioned giving up Montero for someone less than an absolute can’t miss stud.

    • http://twitter.com/themanchine The Manchine

      Something not being taken into account is that Rothschild dealing with Pineda instead of Eiland/Hughes/Joba/IPK should make a BIG difference in this equation.

    • tim

      you make trades like this so you don’t HAVE to “buy” an ace. Haven’t we seen over the past 20 years that signing big name free agents to huge contracts actually decreases your likelihood of winning titles???

      • http://twitter.com/themanchine The Manchine

        Shhh….it’s a secret for the non-logical-impaired.

      • PagsRags

        Like CC Sabathia- what a bust! Just had to throw that in here even though I tend to agree with you

    • Need Pitching

      He didn’t have problems with lefties last season. He was just better against righties. He had a .653 OPS against vs. Lefties. That’s not bad at all. And his HR rate was better on the road than at home. His HR/9 was better than league average overall. Yes, he’s likely to give up more HR’s in YS, but to say he had a HR problem or problems with lefties is an overstatement.

  • Mister Delaware

    Assuming he throws a substantial amount of innings, I bet Noesi has a really good year in that division and in that ballpark with that defense next season. Don’t be surprised if he outpitches Pineda in terms of ERA and people are declaring him the “real loss” in the trade by the end of the year.

    Agreed. He’s going to IPK that shit in 2012.

    • Rod

      Noesi now has to face the Rangers (likely Prince landing spot) and the Angels with Pujols and doesn’t get to feast on the M’s. Also he may now face the Yankees. Shit got tougher for Noesi.

      • CJ

        Prince to Texas is as much of a reason to sign him as open DH. If prince goes to Nats then sign Pena.

      • Mister Delaware

        I’d disagree. Getting to play half (perfect distribution) your games in Safeco and probably a couple in Oakland more than make up for tougher lineups, if the lineups in the West do end up tougher. Great players will always do great things but those ballparks can do a huge job in stiffling everyone else.

  • Bronx Byte

    The Yankees saw a small sample size of Montero in 2011. He wasn’t projected to catch any more than 40 games which now will be handled by Cervelli / Romine.
    The top Yankee evaluators didn’t make a knee jerk decision with this deal. They were thinking long term. Pineda and Kuroda make the starting rotation stronger.
    Montero wouldn’t have got as many DH at bats as people think. A-Rod, Jeter, Cano, Teixeira, Granderson, and Swisher will be scheduled to get some DH time by getting half-days off by Girardi.

    • Jose M. Vazquez..

      So now we have 3 no hitters at catching position.

      • tomaconda

        I wouldn’t call Martin a no hitter. I predict he will be even better next year. Also you have a very good prospect who most believe will stick at C in Sanchez

        • forensic

          This is the same Sanchez who had about 4000 passed balls (give or take a couple) last year and then stopped calling breaking balls because he couldn’t catch them way down in the low minors, right? Good luck with that development path.

          • Rainbow Connection

            Suddenly Montero is Pudge behind the plate?

            • forensic

              Where did I say anything about either Montero or pudge in my comment? But, since you wiseassedly asked, I had hoped that he could make it work for a bit piazza style, but knew there was zero chance of that even being given the opportunity to happen because of their manager who loves the no-hit catchers as listed by the other commented above.

      • JJ

        ….then by this logic we had 3 no hitters at catcher before the trade because Montero was not a catcher.

  • Jamey

    I said last night I didn’t think with the games they need the DH spot for “days off” & Tex at 1B I didn’t think they would pay Fielder big ticket free agency money to be guaranteed a lot of days in the dugout. I refuse to do math in my free time though so I haven’t bothered to add up the expected # of DH games for A-Rod, Jeter & Tex & figured in Fielder’s rest days too.

  • Fister? I hardly know her

    Yoenis Cespedes Looking good now or is he out of the question?

  • Jose M. Vazquez..

    Hey Mike, are you there? How about a poll on this trade? From what I have read in the comments i seems divided.

    • Rainbow Connection

      Why would it matter what a bunch of dummies on a message board think of the trade?
      Even the ‘Rank Your Confidence in the Yankees’ poll is dumb. Anyone who votes lower than 8 is shouted at and called an a55hole.

      • LiterallyFigurative

        …..as they should be……

  • JJ

    It’s incredible how the people who dislike this trade reduce Pineda to merely a two-pitch pitcher, and yet mention nothing alluding to the fact that Montero has NO POSITION. So your going to forecast the greatest upside for Montero and the floor for Pineda?

    Whether you like to admit it or not, Montero is a guy who had no position, especially on the Yankees. He isn’t a legitimate long term catcher, while DH & 1B is going to be occupied by Arod and Tex. Once you’ve realized that Montero had no true position, and see him for what he is, a DH (albeit probably a great one), you’ll realize that it is in infinitely easier to replace a DH than it is to replace a high end starter.

    It’s also pretty convenient that those who criticize this trade talk about Pineda’s two pitches, but don’t talk about how dominant his fastball is. Pineda’s fastball avg is 94.7 mph. The only starters who topped that are Verlander, Ogando, and Price. 9.1 k per 9ips and 3.15 k/bb.

  • tony

    The Yankees have to get Damon. Its perfect. Why doesnt anyone else see this

    • http://twitter.com/themanchine The Manchine

      Because the DH spot shouldn’t be permanently occupied. A-Rod & Jeter need half-days to stay healthy.

      How do some people not see THIS? (anyone calling for Prince, Pena, Damon, etc.)

      • tony

        Damon and jeter dh once a week at most what do you do for the next 5 days

        • http://twitter.com/themanchine The Manchine

          DH Damon once a week??? Where would he be otherwise? On the bench? Surely you don’t want him in LF instead of Gardner.

          Besides, Damon = nomaD.

          He’ll have a NEW team soon.

          • tony

            By your logic there is no reason to even have a DH. What did they sign Jones for? So they could play him against lefties. Damon could do the opposite against righties

            • http://twitter.com/themanchine The Manchine

              What did they sign Jones for?

              The same reason they signed him last year. To be the 4th OF. Rest Gardner against tough lefties.

              By your logic there is no reason to even have a DH.

              Unfortunately, Nunez is basically our DH right now. He’ll play 3B or SS when A-Rod & Jeter DH. I’m sure Jones will get some DH ab’s also. Or Tex with Swish at 1B and Jones in RF.

              Basically it’ll be a revolving door helping keep our aging players fresh & healthy.

        • Rainbow Connection

          Wow.

    • http://twitter.com/themanchine The Manchine

      Why doesnt anyone else see this

      Take a hint = because it only makes sense to you.

      • tony

        I really want to know if you watch the Yankees or know anything about them. Jeter and a-rod are the only two aging players. Swisher isnt old nor is tex. Tex is playing first not exactly a grueling position. I dont kno where you got the idea of Jeter or A-rod dhing every other day. The dh position is supposed to be a power spot in a lineup. If you would rather have it be all the Yankees bench players thats just your stupid opinion

        • http://twitter.com/themanchine The Manchine

          I really want to know if you watch the Yankees or know anything about them. Jeter and a-rod are the only two aging players

          LOL REALLY? Read my posts just in this thread alone.

          I was in the bleachers for game 6 in ’96.
          I’ve been around this blog since close to the beginning, although haven’t commented nearly as much as I used to. Having a 2yr old son will do that lol.

          Look, this isn’t PS3. Swish & Tex are 31. Cano is 29. They’re not old, but they’re not young either. Techinaclly that classifies them as aging.

          What did Girardi do when Posada crapped the bed? He rotated the DH spot. Damon = nomaD. Get used to it.

        • http://twitter.com/themanchine The Manchine

          Almost forgot….

          If you would rather have it be all the Yankees bench players thats just your stupid opinion

          All the writers of this beloved blog and 95% of our fellow commenters seem to agree.

          • Need Pitching

            not sure its 95%. Seems like a lot of people here want Fielder, Pena, Damon, etc. Personally, I would like to see them add a LH platoon power bat, but I don’t think its the end of the world if they don’t. They could then rotate the DH against LHP while using the lefty power bat vs. RHP. Still enough rotate days to give their older guys some added rest, while at the same time upgrading their offense vs.RHP.

        • Rainbow Connection

          ‘tony’ obviously watches lots of games and knows a lot.

  • Kosmo

    I´m not a big fan of this trade but I´m OK with it. Yanks have at least 3 catchers in the pipeline with Sanchez being the best of the lot. He´s 2-3 years away. Murphy is 2 years and Romine is 1 year if not sooner. Didn´t NY sign another stud catcher from Latin America ?
    Plus NY has Arod for another 6 years and DH is soon to be his on an everyday basis.
    Yanks can always find a RH who can rake.
    Burnett is gone within the next two weeks.

  • Dropped Third

    Send him to mos cutter school. Hasnt he taught others?

  • Grit for Brains

    I wonder if this paves the way for Jorge to come back…Jones/Posada platoon for DH might be pretty effective

  • JJ

    CC – Pineda – Kuroda – Nova – Garcia.

    Wow that looks amazing compared to CC – Nova – Garcia – Burnett – Hughes. I now actually have a great deal of faith in our pitching staff if CC fails to win a game 1. Credit to cashman for turning our largest weakness into a legitimate strength in the span of 2 hours.

    • Paul VuvuZuvella

      +1
      The extra pitching depth won’t “hurt”. Last we saw Nova he was holding his elbow, AJ has somehow avoided injuries for 3 years and asking for a 4th seems unrealistic, Freddy is a year older and Hughesy has dealt with injuries in his past too. Still, AAA will have options so maybe deal Hughes or package of Hughes Gardner and Phelps for an OF.

  • DZ

    I think along with a lot of people, when I first heard this deal, I was upset. Now, I’m kind of indifferent. A flyball 2-pitch pitcher isn’t all that appealing for an insane upside bat like Montero, but Pineda also has a ton of upside. Whenever a big time trade is made, you have to look towards how it will affect future moves.
    Does this trade mean they go after Prince this year? And/or, how does this affect what they do next off season in regards to hamels/cain. Lets say they get similar production from Pineda as he performed last year, and same for Nova, and hughes bounces back. Does that eliminate them from going after one of the big pitchers, knowing they have bans/bets looking in? Or, do they go for the safe, guaranteed bet, and make their pretty good rotation one of the best and youngest in the league.
    Imagine in 2013
    CC
    Hamels
    Hughes
    Pineda
    Nova
    Banuelos
    Betances
    Warren
    Phelps
    I know it’s costly, but I think this is the direction you have to go…

    • http://twitter.com/themanchine The Manchine

      Does this trade mean they go after Prince this year?

      How does that make sense? Cash needed permission to sign Kuroda to a 1year/$10m deal. Plus A-Rod and Tex are in place. Yet you think this means Prince and his mega $20m contract are coming to town?

      • DZ

        I don’t think it’s the right move to do,but I do think Hal is too trigger happy to not go after Prince now. You know he’s thinking that this guy could AVERAGE 50 homeruns per year in YS3

        • Need Pitching

          Hank maybe. Hal seems to be more budget conscious.

      • CJ

        Fielder would be an ownership signing. Cashman will not need permission. Hank Hal and Randy will work it out with boras and tell Brian to set up a press conference

        • DZ

          That’s my point…

  • Operation Slade

    So heres the thing, I think now they may look to trade Banuelos for a bat, I really do. We know CC, Nova, and Pineda are in this rotation for the forseeable future and I think they will use Banuelos to get a young bat. I am incredibly sad about losing Montero and I think that this is a high-risk/reward trade. If Pineda develops his changeup then this is a good trade and he probably becomes an Ace pitcher. However if he doesn’t then we lose most likely a guy that will become probably one of the best hitters in baseball. Losing Noesi upsets me because he was one of my favorite prospects but in terms of stats I’m ok with it because there is no guarantee he really could develop into a top pitcher here, he easily will play better in Seattle in a bigger park. If Pineda develops this changeup I give the trade a B, if he flops then this is a clear and major F and Cashman’s worst trade.

    • http://twitter.com/themanchine The Manchine

      However if he doesn’t then we lose most likely a guy that will become probably one of the best hitters in baseball.

      That (obviously) Cash & co viewed STRICTLY as a DH not a Catcher. A-Rod will need to DH very soon.

      I miss Jesus too, but he obviously wasn’t viewed as a Catcher. Lots of scouts have said in any other org he’s have been to 1B a few years ago.

  • Mike HC

    The positives of the deal is that we are now stacked with young, cost controlled talented pitchers. Pineda, Nova, Banuelos, Betances and Campos leaves us in great shape pitching wise for the next 6+ years with CC leading the way.

    Losing Montero still hurts pretty bad though.

    • Mike HC

      Also, if pitching and defense wins championships, we just got rid of a negative defender and added two excellent young pitchers.

      I’m trying to think of all the positives to take losing Montero off my mind, ha.

    • Kosmo

      “great shape“ ? It´s safe to say that for whatever reason(s) 2 or 3 of these pitchers you mention don´t have much of a career.

      • Mike HC

        Yes, but compared to the rest of the league, I would say the Yanks have to be near the top in young pitching talent right now.

        • Kosmo

          Let me play devils advocate for a moment. Who are these top pitching talents ? Banuelos and Betances ? When Campos is at AA Trenton and is lights out then maybe we can get excited. Yanks have a group of OK pitching talent, not near the top by any means. Atlanta has excellent pitching talent.

          • http://twitter.com/themanchine The Manchine

            Wouldn’t you say we’re right under ATL and TB? That would still land us in the top 5.

          • Mike HC

            I’m counting Pineda as well. And as the Manchine wrote I would guess around top 5.

            If you think we are still thin after this trade, then you must of thought the Yanks were near the bottom before. Making the pitching situation even more dire.

  • mt

    Tried to hold off on evaluating this deal for awhile but now with some distance.

    1) The deal is not optimal from an isolated standpoint or in a vacuum – when we all had a list of players that we would have traded Montero for (Felix, Lincecum, Kershaw, etc.) was Michael Pineda on that list? I am a little worried about MP’s use of slider (think I saw that last night that it was 30%) and impact on elbow – flyball tendency righty in YSIII with 2 pitches – is he just a slightly more polsihed Phil Hughes of 2010 or potential to be some approximation of Dwight Gooden? No Felix guaranteed #1 starter does give a twinge of emptiness. Thought we would have traded the outside potential of Montero (could he be Cabrera, Thomas, Ramirez type hitter) for more of a track record of performance in starter.

    2) But given other trades done this year I also need to realize that we would not have gotten Felix/Lincecum/Kershaw type with just Montero and Noesi. We would have had to also deal 2 or 3 of Betances, Banuelos, Gardner for that level.

    2) Noesi is also being overvalued = yes he may do well in Safeco but is he that different than Phelps/Warren who we already have? I do get the idea of dealing from a position of strength. Similar to when we traded Melky and felt that we had Brett Gardner. The real question is not whether Noesi does well but is it any better than the host of Yankee prospects that we have.

    3) Will we all have a fit if Montero is played at catcher by Mariners and is decent? I am sure we will but Cashman LOVES Russell Martin (and so do pitchers, like CC) – Cashman was throwing around Thurman Munson comparisons a few months ago when he talked about Martin and those should not be treated lightly. We may disagree with this assessment but given Russ Martin’s coming arbitration there is no reason for Cashman to over praise his catcher. Should be interesting to see if Yanks try to do a long-tern deal (2-3 years)

    4) The Montero deal unfortunately is not made in a vacuum or in isolation – yes, AROD played a good third base last year but he could not stay on the field and there are SIX more years on his deal (not to mention Tex) at ridiculous dollars. He will need to DH, maybe in 2-3 years. Yes, we had Montero for six years but if that meant we had to play a Nunez type more at 3rd as Montero played DH and AROD was on bench how valuable is that? This whole deal revolves around Yankee assessment of Montero’s ability (or lack thereof) to play full-time catcher. In isolation I am not totally thrilled with deal because Pineda still has question marks (transition from AL West; just 2 pitch pitcher, flyball tendencies) but I feel better for Yankees decision in this particular instance given the AROD/Tex need for DH in future.

    5) I hope we can still go for lefthanded Hamels next year – keeping Montero and then just signing Kuroda may have worked out in terms of definitely keeping powder dry for Hamels but Cashman may not have wanted to totally depend on 2013 free agents like Hamels or his young pitchers in AAA. Now, given this trade, if his young pitchers develop he may skip 2013 free agent class, especially if free agent prices are ridiculous. On the other hand, if young pitchers don’t develop, he can play in 2013 free agent class but will not be as desperate (like he was in 2009). Also 2013 free agent market is no guarantee – Hamels, Cain may sign with current clubs and then the Brandon McCarthys and Marcums of world get paid more than they should given their track record (I assume he does not want Greinke because of his social anxiety issues.)

    6) I want Carlos Pena/Andruw Jones platoon at DH – do not want Chavez as the platoon partner. I do not want to rely on Chavez’ health.

    • Need Pitching

      re: 6)
      I’d love that as well, though in that scenario, I would think Jones would still mostly platoon with Gardner, while using a rotating DH to rest guys (ARod mostly) vs. LHP.
      Unfortunately, I don’t see the Yankees expanding the budget enough to sign Pena. (unless Cash can swindle someone into taking about half of AJ’s contract)

  • Mykey

    Man, Pineda is going to like being on a team that actually gives him run support. Every video I’ve watched of him on MLB.com is like, “Pineda has another strong outing in 2-0 loss to White Sox” or something along those lines.

    • Kosmo

      Pineda received 3.47 runs per start by comparison Nova received 5.95 runs per start.

      • Mykey

        Haha, I’d love to see some Hughes 2010 type run support.

  • Rod

    For all of those worried about Pineda’s FB%, check out http://katron.org/projects/baseball/hit-location/

    He seemed to not allow a ton of warning track shots that would be out at YS3. His batted ball data looks similar to Jered Weaver – same LD%, slightly better GB% and FB%.

    • Mykey

      Very interesting graphic there.

  • Jumpin’ Jack Swisher

    Holy fuck…..195 responses already? Wow.

    The morning after: We’ll, I’ve accepted the trade, and there is a bit of a giddy excitement over having two potential long-term rotation anchors for a long time in Pineda/Nova, but I still see this is as a huge gamble for the franchise. For the sake of the sanity of the fanbase, I hope to God that Michael Pineda continues to develop as the more bullish think he will.

    I also agree that Noesi and, potentially, Jose Campos will become more than afterthoughts in this deal. The team probably did just get Arodys back in Campos (I’m sure someone more informed could righfully poke some holes in that last comment.)

    I still miss Jesus. I’ll get over it. There may be a bit of a twinkle in my eye for the Seattle Mariners for a while.

    Now get out there and be the anchor everyone thinks you can be, Pineda. You’re a Yankee now.

  • http://www.twitter.com/matt__harris Matt :: Sec110

    Straight cash homie!
    http://youtu.be/07G23zMGa4g

  • http://twitter.com/themanchine The Manchine

    Hey, where’s TSJC in all of this??
    No mention of RIDICULOUS UPSIDE??

    • Jumpin’ Jack Swisher

      I miss that dude. Would take down the trolls with a smile.

  • CMP

    Pineda kind of reminds me of a right handed CC minus the change up with his great fastball and slider. If he can learn that pitch from CC, most experts seem to think he’d have “Ace” written all over him.

  • Darren

    As with all trades, nobody will know who got the better of it until all careers are over.

    But to not have any emotion about it is weird. We’ve been living with Montero and his impending arrival for years. To see him leave so suddenly is sad and will take a while to get used to.

    Best case for both teams Montero is Mike Piazza and Pineda is Josh Beckett. Would you make that trade?

  • paul

    what about bentaces and romine for wieters….orioles need pitching, wieters/martin can catch, play dh. switch hitter, good behind the dish, due for a breakout season. Thoughts?

    • CJ

      Wieters is their franchise.not happening

    • Need Pitching

      gonna take quite a bit more than Bettances/Romine to get Weiters … I would think

    • CMP

      I don’t think Orioles would trade a 4+ WAR catcher who’s only 25 and just hitting his stride for that package.

      Romine almost certainly will never become close to the player Wieters is so unless Betances turns into a front of the rotation starter-which is far from a certainty-the Orioles would be getting the short end of the deal.

      • paul

        wieters has been a bit underwhelming so far, no? i think the orioles would have to consider moving him for pitching.

        • CMP

          He did his first 2 years but last year the only catcher in MLB worth more WAR than him was Alex Avila. He was 4.3 last year and I think he’s only scratched the surface so far

  • vinny

    how do we feel about maybe derek lee instead of pena

    • emac2

      I don’t get the Pena love. That BA doesn’t work for me.

      How about a trade for Prado. He could play full time rotating between the outfield, 2b, 3b and probably 1b.

      • Need Pitching

        Pena vs. RHP .255BA/.892OPS/.382 wOBA. That OPS and wOBA vs. RHP was better than every Yankee except Granderson. With Tex, Swish, and Jeter struggling to varying degrees against RHP, and the Yankee offense as a whole being weaker vs. RHP, a platoon RHP masher makes a lot of sense. Start him at DH vs. RHP and rotate older players at DH for rest vs. LHP.

        • emac2

          So you get an old player who can hit all of .250 on the good side of his platoon and about .150 if they have someone on base and bother to turn him around. All so you can back up 1st base?

          • Need Pitching

            not so you can back up first base. So you can have a lefty DH who mashes righties (and who is greatly superior to Prado offensively). If they bring in a lefty to pitch to him they can pinch hit Jones. Prado is just a slightly better version of Nunez. They need a LH bat much more than they need another RH bat.

            • emac2

              If you can’t hit 250 you can’t make contact well enough to make a difference when it counts. (see nick swisher playoffs) Hitting 250 from your better side just makes it worse.

              Pena might help a little for a team doing all it can to make the playoffs but for a team like the Yankees he’s a waste of roster space.

              The Yankees don’t need a one sided DH that needs to be pinch hit for in the clutch as much as they need someone to play third when Arod has to DH.

              • Need Pitching

                “needs to be pinch hit for in the clutch”
                not in the clutch, just maybe against LHP

                “If you can’t hit 250 you can’t make contact well enough to make a difference when it counts.”
                right, not .250 hitter has ever made a positive contribution in the playoffs
                “they need someone to play third when Arod has to DH.”
                they have Nunez for that. If they want to upgrade over Nunez, fine. They could add Prado to take Chavez role and still use Pena as LH DH. As just ARod backup, Prado maybe starts 40-50 games giving probably about league average offense. Using Pena as LH DH, he start about 100-120 games and provides well above league average offense. Meanwhile Prado would likely be on the bench for the playoffs, hard to make a difference when it counts when you’re sitting on the bench.

                BTW, Pena career postseason: 269/388/522
                so yeah, he could never contribute when it counts
                (for contrast, Cano, a career .308 hitter, is 258/307/491 in the postseason)

                • emac2

                  Ever? – Aren’t you grasping at straws here? This is a game of percentages. Everything happens if you try enough times(almost)

                  If it’s a clutch situation the other team turns you aren’t. the more cluth the situation the more likely. IN other words the more you need him the less likely he is to help.

                  Clog the DH spot for 120 games with Pena? What about Jeter and Arod? are we going to dictate their rest based on Pena dh the other teams pitcher?

                  Never? Did I say he could never play or that he didn’t have any value to the Yankees roster this year?

                  • Need Pitching

                    so the first 6 innings or so of a postseason game don’t have any clutch AB’s? Did the Yankees lose to the Tigers because of Phil Coke??
                    I said 100-120 games, which would include games at first. ARod shouldn’t need more than 1-2 games/week at DH, which this would allow for. Jeter really shouldn’t DH at all, if he needs rest he should get days off vs. RHP, but he could get a few DH games as well. Realistically 50-60 games at DH is plenty to rest and rotate anybody they choose to. ARod only DH’d 10 games last season.

                    • emac2

                      I think what I am saying is that while there are times where he could potentially help the simple fact is that he isn’t going to help you as often or as reliably as a lot of other options that would be able to help you in other ways.

                      Why get a DH that can’t hit when you can get a position player who can’t hit?

                      When you get down to the 200 level there might even be some relief pitchers that could DH on their non throwing days to give you those needed fill in days. I’m thinking maybe if the fans all do a bake sale maybe we just splurge on someone who can hit…maybe even someone who can hit and field and take a walk…maybe even steal a base?

                      hey – A guy can dream

                    • emac2

                      And are you really going to sit Tex in 1/3 of the games so Pena can DH?

                    • Need Pitching

                      he’s not a DH who can’t hit. He’s a DH that would crush righties. They face RHP about 2/3 of the time. That’s a lot of playing time. And Tex wouldn’t have to sit at all. I’m saying just play Pena 100-120 games. Tex can still play 150+ games. Your’re alternative Prado would likely play no more than 50-60 games.

                      Again, Pena’s numbers against righties (which is the only time I’m proposing that he play) .255 avg/ .892 OPS, .383 wOBA.
                      That would have been the second most productive hitter on the team vs. RHP. If you’re saying Pena can’t hit agaist RHP (which again, would be pretty much the only time he would play), then apparently no other Yankee except Granderson can hit RHP either, BECAUSE HE WAS BETTER OFFENSIVELY THAN ALL OF THEM VS RHP LAST SEASON. that is far from pitcher’s hitting. HE WAS THE 21st most productive hitter in baseball against RHP (by wOBA) last season. What’s more valuable: 100-120 games of top 25 offensive production or 50 or so games of league average offense?????????????

          • http://twitter.com/themanchine The Manchine

            BA is only part of the equation. Pena has a high OBP (ability to get on base by hit OR walk) and would DH not just back up Tex.

            Not saying I like the idea, just stating the reasoning behind it.

            • emac2

              I totally agree that BA is a small part of the equation. I do however believe that you can read a lot about the ability to make contact and often the ability to perform against superior competition from this stat.

              With a team like the Yankees I think you build to win in the playoffs instead of building to get there. A player that can’t hit for average can’t get a hit when he needs it and a high OBP gets you better pitches but a walk also counts on a pitcher who can’t throw strikes when he wants to.

              Furthermore, a one sided hitter who can only back up the easiest position on the field is too limited.

              • Need Pitching

                He would be the primary DH, not a back up. The fact that he could also back up a position is a bonus, not a limitation.

                • emac2

                  Why get rid of Swisher if we are going to have a DH who can’t hit 225?

                  • Need Pitching

                    what are you talking about? Who said anything about Swisher?? He’s RF not DH. I like how you focus on BA and ignore every other stat in existence. Pena’s numbers against RHP last season (the role he would be signed for) were better than EVERY Yankee except Granderson.

                    • emac2

                      LOL – Do you know that about me?

                      I think what you might be overlooking is that Pena has a problem with his batting average. Have you noticed his average over the last 3 years?

                      I don’t complain about other stats because that is the area of his game that is the fatal flaw. Yes, a DH that can’t make contact on purpose is a fatal flaw.

                      The point about Swisher is that many are realizing that his inability to make contact in the playoffs is a problem and want him replaced. The lesson is that Swisher has the same problem as Pena but Pena is even weaker.

                      It doesn’t matter how great you are in the clubhouse or how many bad pitches you allow to go by. In the end you simply have to be able to make contact once in awhile in a man against man match up and he simply cannot make that contact unless everything is perfect and/or the pitcher makes a mistake.

                      His numbers against left right handers are so great and yet he’s hit .211 over the last two years and 1,000 at bats?

                      Is it the 330 OBP or the 430 SLG that has you so excited for him as a designated hitter?

                    • Need Pitching

                      again, in case you bother to read this time, Pena would not be playing against lefties. What is relevant is his performance against righties, where he is outstanding and was better than every Yankee except Granderson last year. BA has nothing to do with contact by the way, it has to do with hit rate, and makes no distinction between strikeouts or other outs. And Pena has monster numbers in the postseason, so apparently his low BA isn’t a fatal flaw.

  • emac2

    I think you have to trade Hughes with AJ so that you don’t have to send as much cash.

    Maybe even AJ, Hughes and Joba with no cash and getting something good back.

    I think you trade those guys before sticking them in the pen with the price of young starting pitching and our pitching depth.

    There is just too much money and value in those three to waste in insignificant roles.

    How about those three plus Slade, Swisher and Campos for J Johnson?

  • emac2

    Talk about a feel good trade what a great trade for both teams.

    This is even a great trade for the players involved.

    Montero will get to catch which is very important to him but probably wasn’t what the Yankees needed or wanted.

    Noesi gets to be a starter in a good park.

    The Yanks get a top of the rotation starter for a price they could afford to pay and without any impact on the payroll. They also get a legit (potential) top of the rotation prospect because they had the depth at the top of the farm to trade a ready player and take back a really young player.

    Who Won? – I do hate losing a young middle of the order bat because you can’t replace that for a sane price. I think if you had a free agent package bid and could choose either Montero and Noesi or Pineda and Campos the Yanks would bid more for the Pineda package and the Mariners would bid more for the Montero package.

    One additional point is that the Yanks are having a hard time drawing top pitchers to the new park. The fact that the opposite is true for Seattle both teams saved even more if you want to use the free agent comparison.

  • http://www.twitter.com/matt__harris Matt :: Sec110

    This can’t be real, but it’s out there:

    http://baseball.realgm.com/src.....ng_trumbo/

    Yanks discussing with angels a trade for Trumbo? Robertson would be dealt…this makes no sense.

    • Greg

      The Trumbo possibility makes sense, but Robertson?

      I don’t know.

      • JobaWockeeZ

        Kinda does. Pineda to the 8th when he hits that rough patch of starts like in every young pitcher’s development.

        • Need Pitching

          gotta think he’ll have a longer leash. They need to keep him in the rotation to justify trading Montero.

          • Dave203

            Pretty sure that was a Joba sarcasm comparison, but could be wrong…

            • JobaWockeeZ

              Nope you’re right.

            • Need Pitching

              I know, just saying…

          • http://www.yankeenumbers.com Mr. Sparkle

            Looking at his second-half numbers, I wouldn’t be surprised if Pineda starts off slow and spends some time at Scranton. I actually won’t be surprised if he starts the season there. Especially after the signing of Kuroda, which gives them a little leeway. There will be a lot of grumbling, but if it’s not obvious by now that Cashman doesn’t care what the fans or media think, then you haven’t been paying attention.

    • CMP

      That’s gotta be a bunch of BS. Who the hell would want Trumbo and his .290 OBP? Goes against everything the Yankees like in a hitter. If they wanted to dump Kendry Morales cheap, I’d be interested though

    • Jose M. Vazquez..

      Absolutely no sense. They gave away Montero and now they are thinking of giving away Robertson. The end of Yankee universe. The Mayans were right.

      • Need Pitching

        ” They gave away Montero”

        trading him for a pitcher with ace potential and 5 years of team control is giving him away??

        • Rainbow Connection

          Please be nice.

    • http://twitter.com/themanchine The Manchine

      I think Cash has proved that anything we hear about is false. The real deals are ninja. Tex, Granderson, Pineda.

  • bklyn

    Too many mixed feelings about this trade. I just hope things work out for both teams. I would suck to see Pineda shit the bed like Jimenez did in Cleveland.

    • Donny

      What exactly would you suck?

      • Bklyn

        yeah, site doesn’t let editing comments. I knew someone was going to catch me on that.

        but to answer your question… your moms c0ck

        jk

        • Rainbow Connection

          This guy is witty.

      • http://twitter.com/themanchine The Manchine

        ietc

  • Donny

    Red Sox feelings aside… I would take a 1-year flyer on J.D.Drew for $2m or under as a left handed version of Andruw Jones off the bench.

    He sucked last year at the plate, but is normally a professional hitter who can still play 20 or so games in right and career-wise hits righties pretty good.

    • Dave203

      What’s next… sign Manny?

      No more Sox playing for the Yanks… Damon was bad enough to bear mentally…

  • DM

    Sweeney Murti was WFAN this morning. He brought up another factor that got lost in the glare of Montero’s 69 Sept ABs. His attitude was still a question mark in the Yankees view. Murti brought up the incident of him not running out a ball, then getting benched — but added this tidbit that I didn’t know about. Apparently Montero came late to BP the next day as some kind of retort. So, some skepticism about his character remains.

    And to all the Montero supporters who thought he could manage as a good hit/ bad glove catcher like Posada; remember, Posada never brought along young pitchers. Most of his battery mates were veterans who called their own games. Torre protected Posada — and he always let the better defending back up catch a rookie. Montero’s only chance with the Yankees would be to catch full-time — not enough ABs at DH with an aging A-Rod and Jeter, no room at 1st with Tex. But that would never happen with a team that’s trying to bring along all these young arms. I can’t see Montero leading a pitching staff like Martin did so well last year. I can see a catching tandem of Martin and Romine in the not-too-distant future — and for years after.

    • CMP

      Montero was never going to catch for the Yankees.

      I’ll bet one of the reasons they didn’t catch him much when he came up last september was they didn’t want to diminish his value by showing the rest of the league he couldn’t catch either.

      • DM

        I totally agree. There was every opportunity to catch him when Cervelli went down — but they still didn’t do it — opting for Romine instead. If they believed in him as their catcher of the future, they would’ve played him as much as possible. He was always on the block, imo. Cashman just struck while his value had jumped up again b/c of 69 Sept ABs — after a disappointing AAA season.

    • joe

      I agree, it does seem like Cashman was intent on trading Montero, and it was waiting for the right deal to come along. I don’t know how valid the issues with his attitude are, but it does seem like there is something else there.

    • emac2

      I think Montero would have made a stink about not catching.

      But, are you saying you would DH Jeter instead of Montero given the option???

      • DM

        I agree. Montero was already complaining about the idea of a position change like 1st. He seems to cross the line from confident to someone who thinks his eventual stardom is a mere formality — hence being “bored” with AAA despite not hitting above .288 there. I’ll be curious to see how he reacts when he starts making big money.

        My point regarding the DH is that Girardi will DH Jeter, A-Rod, Tex — and even Cano and Grandy to give them rest. It’s not about whether I think Jeter would perform better at DH than Montero. It’s that Jeter, A-Rod, etc will play whether it’s at DH or in the field. But the “in the field” option doesn’t exist for Montero if he doesn’t do a lot of catching. Montero doesn’t fit. It would be a different story if this was the last yr of A-Rod’s contract. But the future DHs of this team are already here. It’s full-time catch Montero — or trade Montero. I think Cashman had the latter in mind the whole time. Montero went from truly untouchable back in A ball to a guy being offered for starting pitching multiple times. Cashman finally found a match after Montero’s value spiked with his Sept call up.

        • emac2

          I just think people are mistaken when they assume that if Montero had stayed he would have missed games while Jeter and Arod played at DH.

          I disagree

          I think he would have been one of the top 3 hitters on the team from day one and Jeter and Arod would have simply had more real days off.

          A day off as DH isn’t really a day off and is generally something you would do if you really need to keep the bat in the lineup. I can’t see just going with half days off in order to make your team worse and put more wear on your oldest players.

          I still think the trade was a good one. I just can’t see Montero on the bench so Jeter can play DH unless it’s an old timers game or something like that.

          I do think they would consider getting a 3rd basemen and making Arod the full time DH however.

  • Harris

    Call me crazy, but I’d rather have Campos than Noesi. Noesi has average stuff, and his upside is extremely limited by the fact that he really doesn’t have any plus pitches other than his fastball. Campos is a good young prospect with the upside to be the next Banuelos or Betances. Noesi could be decent in Safeco, but I think it’s clear that Campos is more valuable.

    • http://www.twitter.com/matt__harris Matt :: Sec110

      did you see on MLBTR that a Seattle writter thinks that Noesi will be better than Pineda

      • joe

        I think my favorite part of this trade, aside from the upgrade in rotation, is the wild speculation that goes on for the rest of the offseason. The Yankees don’t need to do anything to keep everyone guessing what they will do with the DH and the 5th rotation spot for the next 5 weeks.

      • http://twitter.com/themanchine The Manchine

        And I think I’m going to win the lotto.

      • A.D.

        Classic post trade reaction, just like Jhonny Nunez was a future closer after the Swisher trade

  • Monteroisdinero

    Wow. I just removed the ECT (shock therapy) paddles from my head for the 3rd time. Still in a daze.

    I think Girardi loomed big on this deal. He likes Romine which is fine but there may have been something in Montero’s laid back personality and work ethic that is not being talked about. His catching skill set (projected) was Posada’s in my opinion. Let’s hope that ARod and Tex (from the right side) can give us the power that we are losing. I think Montero would have matured and been fine. It will be interesting to see how he takes to Seattle.

    It has felt a bit like Munson’s death did these last 18 hours for me.

    • http://twitter.com/themanchine The Manchine

      It has felt a bit like Munson’s death did these last 18 hours for me

      Overreact much?

      • mustang

        Seriously! And it’s not even funny.

      • Monteroisdinero

        I said “a bit like”.. I cried in ’79. No crying this time-just a stunned depression.

        • Rainbow Connection

          Wow. You’re an older adult and still act this way? I always assumed you were 13 or something.

          • Monterowasdinero

            Bezball keep me young.

        • Bo Knows

          thank goodness your ok! I thought you jumped of that bridge monteroisdinero

    • CMP

      Don’t be sad, Montero would very easily be back in 2018 as a 28 year old first baseman to replace Teixeria.

      What are you going to change your name to now?

      • Monteroisdinero

        Ancient Mariner fan?

        Monterowasdinero?

    • mustang

      “He likes Romine which is fine but there may have been something in Montero’s laid back personality and work ethic that is not being talked about.”

      HERE:

      “MONTE, WE HARDLY KNEW YE: Yankees fans had to be excited about Montero’s bat. He looked like a young Miguel Cabrera. But he was never going to be Joe Girardi’s type of catcher if he ever caught in the majors.”

  • A.D.

    Montero was a casualty of the Yankees ability to spend on bats, which are generally a bit more available and a bit more sure than pitching on the FA market.

    • Mike Myers

      exactly. this was a big risk, however young arms with top of the rotation stuff dont come around that often.

  • millertl

    like the idea of Burnett for Carlos Lee trade 1 bad contract for another but only 1 year of lee. Lee still has good strike to walk ratioand would be good DH emergency 1B-LF.probably have to give some cash towards 2nd Burnett year.

  • mustang

    I posted this before, but i think its worth repeating:

    “The Yankees initially tried to acquire Felix Hernandez from the Mariners, reports Jon Heyman of CBSSports.com (via Twitter) and were willing to offer a package that included Montero, Betances, Banuelos and more.”

    I think the Mariners missed the boat and THANK GOD that this didn’t happen.

    What do you guys think?

    • JobaWockeeZ

      Lat person I would expect to say this.

      • mustang

        Fair enough, but with all due respect I don’t think you read all my comments. Although I don’t value prospect as high as some people here do compared to MLB talent there has been many situations where I thought the price in prospect and money was just to high.

        • emac2

          I’m also guessing that Felix seemed a much more desperate need yesterday then he does today.

          • mustang

            I wouldn’t of don’t it yesterday either like I said I think the Mariners missed a BIG chance to improve their team in many areas for years to come.

            • emac2

              I see the Mariners side of it too. Trading Felix means they don’t have a true number one on a young team. They got the player they wanted while keeping the number one and the emotional base of the team.

              I agree from a deal standpoint alone they would have gotten better value but Montero leading a bunch of rookie pitchers?

              Entertaining and a good story but not what you want when you can have Felix in charge of the pitchers and helping keep Montero even keeled.

              That assumes your earlier post said the M’s choose the wrong deal. :)

    • emac2

      I heard Montero, B, B and Gardner.

      I think I prefer this deal because of the money and because we have CC. We can afford 2 number twos out of the group because we have a true number one. If we Didn’t have CC I might have preferred (Felix if we kept Gardner) Because it would have been the only way to be sure you have a number one starter.

      • mustang

        Mariners ace Felix Hernandez can block trades to ten teams, and Jon Paul Morosi of FOX Sports learned eight of them: the Yankees, Mets, Red Sox, Cubs, Angels, Dodgers, Rangers, and Phillies. Morosi adds:

        We shouldn’t infer from that list that Hernandez wants to avoid large-market clubs. Rather, astute players (and agents) will often protect against trades to high-revenue teams, because those clubs (a) are most likely to be interested in acquiring expensive players and

        ” (b) have the wherewithal to offer financial inducements that encourage players to waive the clauses.”

        So it would of cost God knows how much.

        • emac2

          Would you save the money if it means no CC or Felix?

          Pineda
          Kuroda
          Nova
          Hughes
          Garcia

          That feels like a high draft choice to me.

          • mustang

            Your right.

  • FIPster Doofus

    Sign Fielder and take the field to the nWo theme song from WCW. Embrace the villain role.

  • Bill Carlo

    This trade and signing has improved the Yankees this year in their most needed area, it has improved them next year (They get their pitcher in Pineda for another 2 years for league minimum and kept Kuroda to a one-year deal. As opposed to a trade or signing a player(s) to a 8 or 9 figure multi-year deals, they’ve kept themselves in play for the 2013 FA Class with financial flexibility), and they’ve improved themselves in the long-term future (They traded two graduating minor league players for a young prospect with more potential and growth). How isn’t this a A+++ trade and signing for the Yanks? They covered themselves on all bases for the next 5 years in the grand scheme of things with these 3 players. In a year or two the rotation could be something along these lines

    Sabathia
    Pineda
    (Insert ’13 FA)
    Nova
    Banuelos/Bentances/Phelps/Warren

    In a perfect world two of those 4 in the 5 spot, or a resurrected Hughes or Joba, will breakout before next year and we could spend that money planned for a SP for say Josh Hamilton?

    • Jose M. Vazquez..

      What makes you think that Banuelos or Betances are in their future? They will probably be traded before ST starts.

      • ChrisW.

        Will you eat your hat if they’re not traded by ST?

      • Bill Carlo

        The Yanks could’ve traded Montero for a long time now for a more established pitcher with a longer track record, but they didn’t. They seem to heavily favor youth in all aspects of the system, I think the inclusion of Campos in the deal and their draft track record the past couple years is indicative of this. Unless they receive a player just entering his prime, I don’t see them trading B & B.

  • Monteroisdinero

    So how do we get Montero back now? 6 years is a long wait as ARod sinks and Jesus rises.

  • ryan

    Crazy trade. jorge vasquez hit like 50 Homeruns last year maybe he can DH some.

  • Cecilio Guante

    I think it’s because I’m a little older now, but I didn’t form an attachment to Montero like a few of the fans here. I’m not saying they were mistaken in doing so, but I decided that as soon as Cashman agreed to trade him the first time, I wasn’t going to caught up in the Montero love. I mean, if there ever was a prospect I knew was going to get traded it was Jesus Montero. He clearly had no position on the team.

  • Cecilio Guante

    I think it’s because I’m a little older now, but I didn’t form an attachment to Montero like a few of the fans here. I’m not saying they were mistaken in doing so, but I decided that as soon as Cashman agreed to trade him the first time, I wasn’t going to caught up in the Montero love. I mean, if there ever was a prospect I knew was going to get traded it was Jesus Montero. He clearly had no position on the team.

  • ItsATarp

    Pineda actually used his change up 11% for lefties, but only 2% vs righties because his slider was so good. So that “5%” change ups is very misleading

    • Johnny O

      B-B-B-Bbbbb, HE’S A 2 PITCH PICTHER?!?!?!? How dare you ruin the narrative for all the haters on here?

  • http://NYBronxBombers24-7 Brian L

    I like the trade I love how the yanks always come out and make a nice/surprising trade great move Cashman

  • Niko

    Let’s not forget Montero was a catcher who couldn’t catch.
    I like this trade but it always felt like Cash was hanging onto Montero to use in some blockbuster, and I am shocked at how… little this trade netted. Pineda looks like he has a very high ceiling and I hope he works out, it just feels like the value proposition isn’t there with this trade. I mean, why hang onto him so long, give him so little playing time, and then trade him so anything less than an absolute gem? Maybe Pineda is, but I’m not convinced.

    Also, the only way Prince comes to NY is as UN Secretary of Pulled Pork.

    • Rainbow Connection

      This guy knows baseball AND comedy.

    • CP

      If you want a proven, absolute gem then you’re either getting them for just one or two years, or they’re under contract at market rate for an ace ($10M+). One of the advantages of Pineda is that for 2012 and 2013, he’ll be paid about $1M total. Then the Yankees will have him for 2014-2016 at arbitration rates.

      It’s basically a risk-reward analysis. Pineda offers more risk, but also more reward (because his performance could be so much better than his salary for the next 5 years).

      • Niko

        I hear what you are saying, and it is not at all unreasonable, it just doesn’t fit. I am almost ashamed to say this, but it is almost too reasonable based on the expectations the Yanks have established.

        I don’t see Pineda as the cornerstone here, I see it as buying time to develop our farm pitching. Whether that means they pitch in 2013 or get traded is rather irrelevant because they can probably provide more impact in the next year than they could in the next 5 months.

  • Kevin

    I had a chance to see Montero catch down in Triple A. It wasn’t a pretty thing to see. We talk about hitting catchers but more often than not, games are won behind the plate based on defense, not offense.

    • Monteroisdinero

      He seemed fine when I saw him there for 2 years. 6 game sample

  • Andrew 518

    Let’s take a deep breath here, Pineada is only 22!!

    He’s not an ace yet…perhaps he never will be but
    1). He’s probably not going to get worse and he’s allready been pretty damn good for a 22year old.

    2). We don’t need an ace we have C.C. we needed a # 2

    3). Most pitchers at this age have flaws, he’s not going to be perfect but despite his namesake neither was Jesus

    I’m dissapointed to see Montero go but the Yankees need to get younger, they just did in their rotation, having a 22year old DH doesn’t help your line up get younger, it only forces your fielders to be older. if there was an opening at 1B I’d feel worse about this, I always pushed for a Montero to 3B move, but no one in the orginization got my memmo, Like it or not in today’s economics a young under proven starter is worth more than a young DH even with a bat like Montero’s.

    I’d rather have Felix, but I’d rather have this deal than the reported one for him.

  • Electrifying MC

    I’m of the belief we stole Pineda from the Mariners. I know it pained Cashman to see him go, but if the organization truly believed he was a future superstar, why would they trade him? Sure, he’ll hit 30 hrs a year, but then he’ll give up just as many runs not throwing out baserunners or on passed balls and wild pitches.

    Pineda will become a better pitcher here. Why? He has more protection, one of the best inning eaters in baseball in Sabathia as well as guys like Kuroda and Nova behind him, both who provide him with decent protection and can allow him to develop at his own pace. The bullpen is also way better here, so Pineda doesn’t have to pitch deeper into games. He also has CC, Russell Martin, Larry Rothchild, and all the other veteran presences we have on our team. Does Seattle have any of that? On top of that, that contract is sweet. League minimum for the next two years and three years after that? Yes sir!

    Also, Campos seals the deal. He’s a great prospect whos very young, but shows huge potential. Together with the B’s, Warren, Phelps, and other minor leaguers, we will have a strong young pitching core for years to come.

    As for Kuroda, He’s more insurance if anything, as I don’t see Pineda being super in his very first year here. I’m fine with overpaying him for one year to make sure our young starters develop properly.

    All in all, the more I Look at it, I’m loving this deal.