Pineda has anterior labral tear, will have surgery next week
ByVia Mark Feinsand, right-hander Michael Pineda has an anterior labral tear and will undergo arthroscopic surgery at Dr. David Altchek’s office next Tuesday. I suppose the good news is that they can use a scope and won’t have to cut him open, plus it’s not the rotator cuff or capsule. We’ll update with more info as we get it, but the Google tells me anywhere from 3-6 months recovery.
Update: On a conference call with reporters, Brian Cashman said Pineda will miss the rest of the season. I don’t think that’s terribly surprising at this point. “We believe this took place on the last pitch of his rehab outing,” said the GM.
Update Part II: Team physician Dr. Ahmad called it a “discrete tear,” which is why they’re going to use a scope and not an incision. The target date for Pineda’s return is one year out from surgery, so May 1st of next season. The doctors are optimistic about his recovery because his rotator cuff is unaffected.
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Wow…… just wow
Just wondering…what teams do the Yankees have a bad history of trades with? Mariners, Pirates, or White Sox? Also I guess, good for Cash that he didn’t trade Nunez for Jurjens. Wonder if he’ll be in the top ten prospects for the Braves?
Marlins. Mike Lowell. That trade was horrible
Not so much the White Sox. The Swisher trade was a steal.
Said it when we made the trade, he would end up in the bullpen.
Yes, very intelligent comment. Every starting pitcher who has ever missed a year due to injury has only returned to pitch in the bullpen.
I prefer not to evaluate trades until after players return from injuries.
No chance he’s back this year.
Not a rotator cuff at least
Great job giving away Montero for nothing
Campos is a glimmer of hope, but yeah…
Campos is a beast and a career is longer then 6months
Campos is years away. A long shot. As is a return from shoulder surgery. Pinedas forte was his league leading velocity. And all that is long gone. It’s not like Johan coming back throwing 89 or Webb coming back… Oh wait. Webbs not back. Pineda doesn’t have the change up or command Johan does.
Here’s a prayer for Pineda. It’ll be a tough one for the young kid.
He is young and will have plenty of time to be a beast. The Yanks know what they are doing.
First marte. Then feliciano. Now this. I have long been in the Yankees are smarter than me camp. But recent history is troubling.
Good point and true but those guys aren’t Pineda and much older that him. This is all about building the next dynasty. I like what they are doing and what is coming up from the farm system over the next few years.
They know what they’re doing? Based on what this is another strike when it comes to Cashman and his hope to find pitching.
Both Marte and Feliciano had a lot of wear and tear, so youth is on Pineda’s side.
Johan was throwing 80′s before the injury And Webb was rehabbing from the labrum tear when he suffered a rotator cuff injury.
Is anyone else concerned about a 1 year recovery period for a non invasive, scoped surgery? I hope the best for the kid but shoulder injuries are such a crap shoot
Big mouth Schilling says 10 mos. if he works hard,but who knows. If it takes a year,and he comes back all the way,thats ok by me.
Montero isn’t killing it. 254BA 2 homers.
This trade will prove to be excellent in the long run.
I’m looking at this trade as a wash in the long run at best now. Still think it will turn out that way, but…damn, this is disappointing.
idiotic comment. Pujols and ARod are not killing it either.
What, like this is the first or only idiotic comment?
I know there W/L stats for games; didn’t realize they kept them for trades too.
Montero isn’t hurt though.
Is his pitching career over?
Hopefully not but it could be.
Oh, please.
Sad. So soo sad. Wonder how bad the tear is and what recovery time is now.
FIRE CASHMAN – NOW!
Yes, let’s overreact. That always works out well.
I don’t see how that is an overreaction. This was a terrible trade from the start. On a team full of aging players, the yankees took one of the best young hitters in the game, and traded him for a pitcher with one year of experience. This after having previously discussed using him in a trade for the likes of Roy Halladay and Cliff Lee. Furthermore, look at it from a business standpoint. If you’re in charge of accounts in your office, and you make the decision to abandon one of the company’s most promising accounts for another, and it completely fails, you have to answer for it. Same thing should apply here.
But it didn’t fail. That’s why you are overreacting. That account just like the “promising” account may take longer to fully materialize.
they traded one of the best hitting PROSPECTS in the game for one of the best pitching PROSPECTS (who already had a solid first year under his belt) in the game
And who now needs surgery
Hindsight is 20/20. No one really expected this. Maybe a little tiredness or a minor injury from all that pitching he did the previous year, but this was something no one really saw coming.
You build a team based on young hitting, not young pitching. Young pitchers get hurt and it is easier to project young hitters than young pitchers. Everything the Yankees (Cashman & Levine, because he deserves blame) is backward- they blow money on the bullpen and aging position players, can’t develop any talent or have the patience to watch it develop. The last good position player to make it up through the farm system was Gardner nearly three years ago. Before that Cano six years ago. Last good starting pitcher they developed and kept? Andy Pettitte?
Ivan Nova says hello
So do the Rays.
Nova has had one good year- let’s say he pans out- what? They have developed two good starting pitchers in the past 15+ years?
Yes, the Rays have good young pitching- however they also have Upton, Logoria, Zobrist, Jennings, etc. If the Rays had a $200 million dollar payroll they’d blow the Yankees out of the water- right now they come pretty close with a $60 million payroll which just proves the point.
Is that really how your boss judges you? Every day he looks at everything you did that day and judges you on whether it went well or not, and then fires you if something went wrong? Cashman is the GM. His purview is the entire organization and its functioning. You make a decision to fire him based on the overall state of the organization, and his performance in that regard over the timeline of many years. Not based on one bad decision.
I love this logic. The Yankees have a team of aging players, so Cashman deserves to get killed for trading for a young rising star.
Ouch. There goes that trade. Oooof. That hurts real bad. They could have kept Montero and traded for Santana….
This sucks and here come the fire Cashman posts.
Traded best prospect for a broken player who will not throw a pitch for over a season? We should what show our support for a disappointed Brian Cashman?
or at least be fair and acknowledge that the injury occurred post trade
says who? The guy defending his trade of one of the game’s top prospects for a guy who was demonstrating diminishing velocity last year?
a torn labrum would show up on an MRI, he had a clean MRI at the time of the trade, and another MRI showing no tear in spring training.
The tear didn’t show up until after a felt a sharp pain throwing the last pitch in EST.
I’m not certain, but I don’t imagine a pitcher can hit 94 MPH on the gun with a torn labrum.
Pineda hit 94 a few times all spring – and was sitting at 90ish for most of the spring. The entire world supported the trade, although most of the world was a bit concerned about his loss of velocity….just the same as we were for Jiminez.
this is a 10% drop in velocity from what he was throwing last April.
Its called a warning sign, and perhaps a better medical team or a more intrusive procedure should be done on a multimillion dollar athlete whose entire value is tied up in his shoulder and elbow.
this is a 10% drop in velocity from what he was throwing last April.
Math is hard.
lmao
Oh, what a witty comment. While somewhat superlative, 10% isn’t that much off. The spirit of the comment is certainly more accurate than the constantly sycophantic “logic” you present us with. Don’t want to lose that YES sponsorship, huh Mike?
He’s only off by a factor of 50%, what’s the big deal right? You should also familiarize yourself with the meaning of the term sponsorship.
97mph down to 88mph in spring training. That’s a 5% drop? You’re right, math is hard…
I see I’m going to have to do this myself.
Average FB last year: 94.2 mph
90% of 94.2 mph is 84.78 mph.
95% of 94.2 mph is … wait for it … 89.49 mph.
Math: not hard when you’re not an idiot.
I don’t think I’ve seen anything yet saying that he was broken before the trade… It’s phenomenally bad luck, but I don’t see how it’s Cashman’s fault.
who is going to admit it was hurt before the trade – Seattle? Pineda? Cashman?
Getting hurt on the last pitch absolves everyone
and it fits with the facts
a torn labrum would show up on an MRI
he had 2 MRI’s since the trade that didn’t show a torn labrum
Shhh! Only spineless sycophancy allowed when commenting on Cashman!
Like you say, Mike, getting hurt on the last pitch is convenient.
An OPS over 100 points higher in the second half than the first and an ERA more than two runs higher is less so. Fortunately, advanced sabermetrics can explain those things away.
Like Mark Twain said, Lies, damn lies, and statistics…
Wt…
When did this happen? Spring training?…
Ugh… Shoulders are hard to come back from… And it takes time.
Can’t get much worse for a young pitcher yanks gave up a lot to get.
Montero was our golden egg. This type of trade bomb can set a team back a couple years.
yes, losing a cost controlled DH will set this organization back…doubtful. he’ll be back later this year or next and we don’t know how bad it is and how he’ll return from it.
The past history around the league for labrum tears isn’t good. I’m tempering my expectations by not assuming Pineda will the one in 50 success story. I’m still hoping for the best. He’s still young. But when I last saw mark prior. It was sad.
I think Mark Prior’s injury was a lot more serious that this. Wasn’t it a capsule thing?
Not every shoulder injury is the same. I have no idea whether Pineda will recover or to what extent, but it’s more complex than just looking at guys who injured the same general region of their bodies.
Yeah, I don’t even think they sealed Prior’s capsule back up it was so bad. Something like that.
Oh, the narrative! Montero went from a supreme hitting prospect – “Cabrera-like” – was the rally cry, I believe, to a worthless DH in the blink of an eye. What a despicable sham. Everyone one of you obsequious shills should be absolutely ashamed. Mike Axisa above all.
Doubtful
I just want to clarify my set team back statement.
I meant minor league prospects. Which I thought the team was focusing on instead of free agency.
We’ve now graduated our past few highly touted prospects either by debut or trade. And have had some mixed results. With draft slotting rules changing this year , yanks can’t overpay for draft picks. So it’ll be harder to restock our minor leagues. That is all.
Top google result for “anterior labral tear baseball”:
http://www.slate.com/articles/.....d_him.html
Why the torn labrum is baseball’s most fearsome injury.
Not encouraging.
Pitchers like Erik Bedard and Jake Peavy come up. I don’t know what everyone else is looking at but it looks like this is probably the worst injury you can have as a pitcher, as pitching-related injuries go. In my opinion, I would honestly be surprised if he ever makes an impact as a starter for the Yankees.
I agree with this completely. Torn labrums are as bad as it gets… you’d much rather have a torn rotator cuff. I personally tore my labrum pitching and that was the end of my baseball days…
This is incorrect, but you’re a doctor!
You know who else had this surgery… Pedro Martinez in his second year.
*Second year with the Mets.
Stupid phone.
I laughed.
First thought: OH!
Second thought: ooooohhh…..
Let’s hope they have made some headway since 2004 when that article was written.
2004 article not even remotely relevant.
Seriously. An 8 year old article about surgery is might as well be 100 years old. It’s still a disaster, though.
Yeah- cause, in the past eight years medical technology has eliminated the need for surgery. Now Dr. McCoy just passes a device that looks like a salt shaker over the shoulder and it heals everything in 10 seconds.
My God! That is one depressing article. If it’s reliable, the odds are stacked against poor Pineda.
according to that slate article it said that doctors cant even agree on how to detect a labrum tear which to me meants that maybe the injury was pre trade. Plus i read it was a complete tear, and that takes time..if the above is both true, yanks have no excuse
Post-Surgery
After surgery, you likely will have your shoulder in a sling for three to four weeks. A physical therapist probably will prescribe some gentle range-of-motion exercises, since it is important to get the shoulder moving again after surgery. After the sling is removed, your rehab will consist of motion or flexibility exercises. If your shoulder was stable, you might be able to start sports-specific exercises about six weeks after surgery. In this situation, your shoulder should be fully healed in three or four months. If the surgery was more extensive and your shoulder was unstable, if may take up to six months before it is healed.
Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/arti.....z1t5Vd27Df
He could be back for August/September depending on how he does.
He won’t be back this year. I had my labrum repaired in my throwing shoulder in December. Been in rehab for 4 months and I still have not been allowed or able to pick up a baseball and throw it.
Back in August? No. Scratch 2012 & pray Pineda is 100% by next ST.
100%? More like pray he’s pitching.
Surely Cashman can tell the future, right? Hope the kid gets better
anyone with a brain could know this was too much of a risk to deal your best trade chip, many people said it. and I am a cashman supporter, but he screwed up on this trade in my book
Risk and reward are opposite sides of the same coin. If you got less risk you were getting a hell of a lot less reward as well.
you mean many people who comment on this blog? yeah, didn’t hear any actual baseball people say this was a bad trade.
From what I can find online its 4-6 weeks healing and another 4-6 weeks recovery. Plus some time to make starts so we are talking about 3-4 months if it goes well.
Anyone think Seattle knew this was coming?
maybe not the torn labrum but yes they had their concerns with arm problems as did many yankee fans that opposed this trade
Nice job giving away a LOCK great hitter for nothing. This is something non teflon GM’s get fired for.
“nothing” is a bit premature.
so is “LOCK great hitter” for that matter
but the trade definitely isn’t looking good so far
Going back to Need Pitching?
lol … I’ll wait and see how Hughes does tonight
The Yanks have plenty of hitters
Right now. Butwe already know we’re prolly losing grandson or swisher this year. And arod and tex are aging. And cano will get expensive next year. So yeah.
Oh sure, a team that has committed itself to reducing payroll which has a 38 year old shortstop (with $17 million owing next year), a soon-to-be 37 year old third baseman (owed $29 million next year), a 32 year old 1st baseman with diminishing skills (owed $100 million+ over the remaining life of his contract), a 30 year old second baseman with a $15 million team option in his last year before free agency, a right fielder entering free agency next year and a 31 year old center fielder with a $13 million option prior to free agency would never need a 21 year old position player.
DH is a position?
Wait – what if he got Kershaw for him and then Kershaw got hurt? What if he got Koufax in his prime and then he got hurt? Unless he gambled on the trade, knowing there was some sort of potential injury (and no sane person would do that with a pitchers shoulder) you can’t adjust the trade in hindsight based on new information.
Are you comparing Pineda to Kershaw or Koufax?
Or are you comparing their History of durability and health?
He’s not comparing anything. He’s discussing how everyone’s hindsight is 20/20.
I’m sure you can figure out the answer.
So if Montero were to suffer an unfortunate injury, like a broken wrist from a fastball, should Jack Z be fired for giving up a high ceiling pitcher and a potential ace for a player without a position who might lose some power from injury?
Look the news sucks, but it’s not like Cashman traded Montero for Jamie Moyer or something. It just didn’t turn out as well as expected so far.
No because Jack Z traded from a position of strength (young pitching, which the M’s have tons of) for a need- potential power hitting catcher with a swing tailored for that ballpark. That commodity wasn’t available anywhere else.
Cashman, on the other hand, has a team full of overpaid, aging position players and had the ability to keep Montero as the back-up catcher/part-time DH and develop him. He could have filled the hole in the rotation with any number of stop-gaps on the free agent market- the team scores so many runs you can have some scrub that goes 6 innings and gives up four runs still win more than half the games they started.
So, what I am getting at is you didn’t like the trade? You cannot measure how the trade worked out after 2 weeks of the season. Let’s wait a couple of years to see the outcome. I bet you just hated the Granderson trade too and after 3 months it did look horrible, not any more.
Nobody could’ve seen this one coming. Oh well.
Many on this blog did. Pineda’s velocity declined in the second half of last year. Now we know why Seattle dumped him.
94.5 to 94.2 that’s a huge decline
Nope, but an OPS going from .584 to .688 and an ERA going from 3.03 to 5.12 ain’t chicken feed.
don’t think the higher gb rate had something to do with that? Or the strange jump in homers (despite the high gb rate) in the mariners home park in the second half?
With apologies in advance, I don’t understand your question(s) — or how it relates to my point (assuming that was your intention, of course).
did they get mri’s/scans before the trade? i know they didn’t think anything was wrong, but this doesn’t seem unreasonable.
I tear would have shown up in the last MRI, so he probably tore it during his rehab. He was in the low-90s in camp, after all.
so does that mean that this has nothing to do with his low velocity in ST? that seems like too much of a coincidence.
what are the chances he came to ST out of shape, overexerted himself trying to throw harder and damaged his shoulder?
Probably pretty decent
Torn labrums do not always show up, even with MRI with contrast. There’s always a chance that a tear doesn’t show. I personally had an MRI with contrast when I tore my shoulder and it didn’t come up. They didn’t know I had it until they opened me up. It sucks. This is very disappointing.
Yeah, they have MRIs, and so I’m assuming Pineda had an MRI. But remember, his MRI when he was diagnosed with tendinitis was negative. This tear didn’t show up until they did a dye-contrast MRI and they didn’t (rightly) do that until he had the set back and pain trying to rehab.
Knowing is much better than not knowing, and arthroscopic surgery is perhaps not any worse than having the dye-constrast MRI come back negative and then having to deal with either (a) he’s “struggling” or (b) he just can’t be a starter.
I really feel for Pineda, whose whole life is built around being a major league pitcher. I also feel comforted by his evident tenacity that he’ll do everything to return as a pitcher. Who knows? Maybe the surgery will give him a devastating change up?
I’m staying optimistic. Someone’s got to fulfill the Pollyanna role . . . .
Anyone who liked the trade, do the world a favor and don’t reproduce. I’m not a baseball fan till Cashman is out of a job. Bye guys.
Cya?
Does this actually mean you won’t ever comment again? Then at least something good would come of this.
I guess you were one of the ones who liked the trade.
What didn’t you like about the trade at the time? Other than the fact that you knew Pineda had a ticking time bomb in his shoulder
Young pitchers = a lot of risk. I hated and killed the trade from day one on this website mainly cuz of this reason.
Ok, so they should’ve traded Montero for an established #3 starter. Got it.
No, down syndrome. It’s not what he’s saying at all.
The red flags were there. There was a consistent decrease in velocity throughout the season last year which should’ve been a major cause for concern. Also, if young pitching is at such a premium, why was Seattle willing to trade a young pitcher who was a supposed ace for a DH? I know people here love every move the Yankees make, but let’s try using common sense and reasoning here.
Gio Gonzalez was available. Mat Latos was available. Edwin Jackson (who I was against) was available for nothing more than money. All of whom have a consistent, relatively injury free track record AND (get this) ARE ACTUALLY PITCHING THIS YEAR!!!
Instead we trade the best hitting prospect we’ve had since Derek Jeter for a guy who’s career may now be in jeopardy. Awesome trade.
except there wasn’t a consistent decrease in velocity throughout last season
he had diminished velocity in his last start, after being shut down for 10 days due to innings limitations
For example: Pineda May 27 vs. Yankees
top speed – 97.9 avg 4-seamer velocity – 95.3
Pineda Sept. 10 (last start before long layoff)
top speed – 98.1, avg 4-seamer velocity – 94.69
The red flags were there.
No, they weren’t…extra chromosome guy.
You seem oddly invested in this for someone who isn’t a baseball fan.
Fortunately, flapjack, I’m too old to reproduce. Without divine (or alien) intervention, that is.
Too bad your parents didn’t get the memo. What are you, five? “Take back what you said or I’ll stop posting!” Why do you think anyone gives a shit?
I’m sorry. Bad process kills me.
What was bad about the process? Inform us.
I only have this to say:
so long, see ya
sucker, bon voyage, arrivederci, later loser, goodbye, good
riddance, peace out, let the doorknob hit ya where the good Lord
split ya, dont come back around here no more, hasta la vista baby,
kick rocks, and get the hell out!
good, hope cash never lease so we don’t have to hear from mr. hindsight here.
Not hindsight douche. Go back and check the posts from the day of the trade.
good he’s gone. hopefully he never comes back
I’m already missing you.
Going back to this Monday’s Fan Confidence thread can’t wait to hear what the members of the “absolute class of the forum” have to say about this unfortunate occurrence. I guess shit happens no matter how careful and competently a team appears to handle things.
Right. I’m not here to place blame. I’m just here to mourn our misfortune. My favorite Yankee blog. Where else?
Make him throw with his left arm. #venditte4lyfe
+2
Jesus Montero has a .643 OPS!!! I can’t believe Jack Z gave Campos away for this bum! Fire Jack Z!
(just realized this isn’t a mariner’s blog, sorry)
“Via Mark Feinsand, right-hander Michael Pineda has an anterior labral tear and will under arthroscopic surgery next Tuesday. I don’t know exactly what that means, but we’ll find out shortly.”
———————————————————-
it means he won’t be hitting 98 mph again.
Ugh.
No pitcher can survive without hitting 98
That’s fine, seeing as how VERY few young starters who come up throwing 95+ retain that ability after a couple years. Guys like Verlander are a 1 in a billion type pitchers.
Exhibit A:
http://www.fangraphs.com/pitch.....8;pitch=FA
All I know is, despite being out of shape, and possible having a less than 100% right shoulder, Pineda was quite good in ST this year. His changeup and slider were swing and miss-type pitches, and he commanded his fastball like a veteran. It wasn’t until the very end of ST that where he was losing effectiveness (whether it be due to injury or him not being in optimal shape).
Let’s not get carried away on his secondary pitches now that his bread and butter fb is gone.
Change up need a lot of work and slider was a slightly plus pitch. E erything worked off his fb.
are you kidding me or are you just really fucking stupid?
Pineda’s fb was good yes, but his slider was hands down one of the best in baseball last year. The Pineda’s slider struck out lhb and rhb at well above average clips; which is very difficult to do because the slider is inherently a same side batter type of pitch.
I also find it amazing that I’ve never seen your tag before this week…I smell a troll
I really have to read up on MRIs. When exactly did he tear his labrum? Sitting on his couch? The Yankees gave him an MRI after they shut him down in spring. He passed his physical. Something must be up.
@jnorris427: Ouch. Labrum tear for Pineda. Frame of reference, Jeremy Bleich tore his labrum. Last time he pitched? 5/16/10. #Yankees
#Interestingfact
Double ugh.
Jack Z left Cashman with a posterior anal tear
I laughed.
I really didn’t want to laugh, but I did.
That made me spit out my dinner…hilarious
Rumpus Tearis
Oh yeah wow great news (sarcasm)
Where is the great news you mentioned?
You know who wins now? Hacks writing velo articles in Spring Training.
UGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGH this makes it 10x worse
The rate of failure for pitching prospects is FAR AND AWAY greater than for hitters. If they were trading Montero for a Felix or Lee thats one thing, they gave him away on spec. What a complete disgrace.
This is how I felt at the time. After a brief infatuation with Pineda, I could see what they saw. Now, I’ll conveniently fall back to my initial impression.
To think they could have had any of Halladay, Haren, and Lee at any point over the last few years for Hughes+Montero….
Isn’t hindsight wonderful?
Hughes’ minor league stats suggested he could be something special.
I suspect he’s not 100% physically either.
I believe it was a FanGraphs article (although I’m not sure) or a link from a posting to one that said 57% of MLB pitchers suffer a shoulder injury, minor or major, every year.
This.
Pineda showed success as a rookie in AL. It’s not as if they gave Montero up for a guy who did nothing.
You’re completely ignoring the contract situations of these players. Getting Felix is nice, but if you want to spend $15M on a pitcher you can get a pretty darn good one already. Pineda’s contract situation is part of what made him extremely valuable.
worst trade ever!!!! Montero can hit .240 and they still got the better end
i’m kidding btw
you really aren’t – Pineda is now a non-prospect
yes. He is a non-prospect. Any production is an unexpected bonus. Basically he’s Bartolo Colon SPring Training 2011
Cashman is physically INCAPABLE of making a good pitching acquisition. Jesus could of gotten us Cliff Lee or Roy Halladay. I had a bad feeling about this trade to begin with. Hopefully Campos can be a stud because at this point it would be a blessing if we got anything out of Pineda in 2013.
My God.
How many people don’t know the details about the Seattle trade with Cliff Lee?
I thought we were supposed to be a knowledgeable fanbase.
He let Nunez get in the way of getting Cliff Lee but Jesus was part of that deal he should have included both. Especially considering Nunez can’t even field a ground ball. He refused to give them anything valuable beside Montero.
Given what we saw of Lee’s desire (lack thereof) to pitch in New York, wouldn’t that have been just as big a disaster. They might have shipped out Montero and Nunez and been left with what exactly? A better chance in the 2010 playoffs and that’s it.
And two comp picks. (But I still agree with your analysis)
People speak of the Cliff Lee trade as if it was something more than a 3 month rental.
Would have been infinitely worse to trade Jesus for Lee, lose in October then have him sign with the Phillies, which is entirely possible.
Remember when I discussed firing the Yankee medical staff?
If they did miss this tear before the trade, that’s two MONUMENTAL errors that have set back this franchise.
I would go after them not Cashman
At the time the Lee deal was going to go through, the Yanks would’ve traded Montero, Adams and a pitcher, if I recall correctly for 1/2 year of Lee.
And that’s all it would’ve been, because unknown to all but himself, Lee wanted back in at Philly.
The Yanks offered Montero for Halladay, but the Jays wanted either Hughes or Chamberlain or both (the stories were confused and all over the place on that). This was back in 2010 before we know now what we know about Hughes and Chamberlain.
Other than that, your narrative is just fine.
Halladay was with Philly in 2010, but yeah.
#wouldvebeenthefirsttradewewon
I doubt Toronto would have traded Halladay to the Yankees. The Yankee involvement was only to get a better price from a team outside the AL East.
Right. In 2009, then. Thanks.
Explain to me how CC Sabathia, Mike Mussina, Andy Pettitte the second time, and everyone else who has contributed to a team that’s made the playoffs every year, except one, in his tenure aren’t considered “acquisitions.” Go.
Ok, my confidence poll ranking goes from a 9 to an 8. Shit shit shit.
Why are you guys so committed to defending Cash? I’m not saying he should be fired, but you are judged on results. Just as Pineda winning a cy would have been a feather in his cap, the fact that you basically punted Montero for what will be nothing if Campos doesn’t pan out is unforgivable.
Lets face it, Pineda is done. No pitcher has ever had a meaningful return from this sort of injury, and to think he’ll amount to anything is blind wishful thinking. Bad luck, maybe, but to give away Montero, man alive. I’m sick to my stomach over this.
You wear the credit so wear the blame if you’re Cash. Please enough of the blind defending of him. Pitcher attrition under 25 IS a reasonably predictive scenario.
It would be Cashman’s fault if the injury occurred before the trade.
But it didn’t, so he is absolved of blame.
You have no idea when the tear occurred.
It could have happened at the end of last season. Those kinds of tears are commonly missed on non contrast MRIs
Right. No one knows for sure when it occurred. The Yanks think it occurred in this last rehab start. So, if no one knows when it occurred, then Cashman isn’t to blame for the injury.
If people want to blame him for risking it with a young starter, that’s OK. But there were no medical indications that he was hurt before the trade.
Yeah, I’m not going to go that far. When you trade for or sign pitching, you’re likely to get burned. So he was going to develop his own pitching. How has that worked out?
Trading a A+ hitting prospect for an A+ pitching prospect is asking for trouble. The hitting prospect isn’t likely to miss significant time. The pitching prospect likely will.
This.
So if Cash is smart and learns anything from this he’ll trade Banuelos, Bettances, Phelps, and Campos for decent young hitting prospects. Because pitchers can get hurt at any time so young hitters are always more valuable than young pitchers.
+1. Thank you. How do people not realize that saying you never trade young hitting for pitching is logically equivalent to saying you should give up entirely on developing young pitching? That is not realistic. You have to go for young pitching. Sometimes it will blow up in your face. Shit happens.
MIT Nerd- don’t try arguing with this bunch- they don’t seem to quite understand the concept that a prospect pitcher’s arm can turn to the consistency of a manwich at any time and it is best to develop your own pitching en masse rather than trading away the commodity of hitting.
But the results are the results.
This is a young pitcher that had a shoulder injury, its not exactly Bob Ojeda cutting his finger off.
Again, I’m not saying lets fire him, but he would get credit for the good, so he can take blame for the bad. Its not like he was a guy totally lacking red flags.
I’ll say now what I said then, I liked the deal provided the medicals worked out. I’ll never not believe that Seattle didn’t know something was up with him, because I think thats why they put Campos in the deal. This deal looked like a “steal” at the time, and it was perhaps the byproduct of an eager Seattle team to move him.
If there was information to be had in discovery and it wasn’t had, then, well, I just don’t know what to say.
And I say this feeling like Cash has by and large done a great job. This one, wow, this one is bad bad bad.
+1.
Because the trolls on here (many of these tags are never here unless something bad happens) are a bunch of self important assholes with nothing better to do.
I think most people defending Cash are defending him overall, not necessarily on this transaction. If you judge transaction to transaction on results you can definitely put this one in the negative side for now. But you can’t also ignore the positive side.
Anyone have Mike Mussina’s phone number?
Well that sucks but hopefully he comes back 100% and we get to watch him dominate for the next 15 years.
TERRIBLE. This is just….bad.
Cashman’s taste in pitchers equals his taste in woman.
He should start using Head & Shoulders like Mauer.
He’s almost as bad as Steve Phillips.
lol.
good one.
agree with your earlier takes, by the way. These blind-followers on this site are pathetic, really. LOL, at anyone who actually Pineada injured the shoulder while he was pitching for the Yankees. It’s called damage control, yankee fans. Look up the term. And stop embarassing the rest of us.
thanks.
ANDREW MARCHAND YOU FUCKING TWAT!!!!!!
A labral tear is a terrible injury. Kiss this year goodbye and they pretty much have to count out Pineda for the future and anything they get from him is gravy.
I think they’re gonna have to scrap that $189 budget bullshit and go get Cole Hamels after this season.
i wonder what George would say about this if he was still alive?
He would’ve traded Manny Banuelos for Jamie Moyer.
Still would have made the trade. Young quality pitching wins championships.
The fact that the injury occurred after the trade (which none of you seem to get) relieves Cashman of all blame.
IDK why everyone believes the injury came on the last pitch….when everything points to an arm/shoulder issue since the mid point of last year.
who benefits in saying he “coulda kinda been a little hurt before the last pitch, but we let him throw anyway” or ” we knew something was up last year, but our medical staff missed an injury”??
No one, which is why the safe and defendable answer is “last pitch”
Because there is no evidence to support either. They have the burden of proof (the people saying he was injured before).
The people saying he was injured before that final pitch DO NOT have the burden of proof. Why? First, because it’s too convenient for everyone in higher Yankee echelons to say that it happened on the final pitch. Second: we know that he had some sort of shoulder problem a few weeks ago. An MRI did not reveal a torn labrium, but it was also NOT a dye contrast image. Therefore, the simpler argument (Occam says) is that the problem preceded that final rehab pitch. The only remotely plausible counter to this would be that there was a prior problem exacerbated by the final pitch, but in this argument the burden falls ON Cashman et al. because it is the more complicated scenario.
The burden of proof is on whoever is making the accusation. If you’re accusing him of being hurt before the final pitch, prove it.
To be fair thats not a very good argument. Fact is he is right. It is way way way more likely he was hurt before the last pitch. All we know is velocity was down in his last starta after a long layoff. Came to camp velocity still down. Had mri. Rehabbed. Threw agin. Torn labrum. He appeared damaged from the get go as the writers implied. Klaw had him 5mph undrr same time last year. Shit happens. It shouldnt be cashmsns head but it seems likely to me he was injured at the start of csmp. Only other explanation is he got injuted trying to prove the velocity doubters wrong. Either way this one goes in the fuck up side of the management ledger
Again though shit happens. Everyone has bad deals. But what can you do,? I think on this site there always tends to be an inverse over reaction to the initial over reaction. A reasonable person should have been nervous after the third or so st start. But because the trolls were freaking the fuck out instead of being correctly and moderately concerned the reaction here was to say anyone with rational concern was an idiot dickface who thinks jack morris was an ace and votes for cy youngon wins. I just hope this whole experience tones down both sides. The corepeeps up in here should try harder to treat rational folls they disagree with differently than the trolls. Maybe even god forbid with the same respect they would like
Why is it way more likely? Unless you have personally seen Pineda’s MRI’s you are not qualified to make that statement.
And look at that. My main point that you responded to was that insteaed of making this an arguement people should be a bit more ope minded. But anyway here is why:
Although (as you sooo astutely pointed ou) I have not seen Pineda’s MRIs from the very begining there were warning signs in ST.
I was one who witheld judgement, giving him time to ramp his arm up into shape. However by the third or so start there were many many many people, scouts, prospect watchers, respected writers, careful observers, who realized something wasnt right.
At that point the guy was shut down. Then he worked out and started again and…….well in AN AMAZING INSANE COINCIDENCE the same shoulder now has a labrum tear. That strains credulity.
As has been pointed out by many, including actual doctors, MRI’s don’t show up everything everytmie. They constantly miss shit. TThis isnt rare, it’s why it happens all the time that a guy gets a clean MRI, rehabs, and has a “setback” the setback is often a failure to diagnose the original injury. The first MRI wasn’t an invasive one (which was the right decision I’d suppose again (as you pointed out (I’m not his doctor and I don’t have his MRI’).
Not evry thing has to be 100 percent TOTALLY proven to make reasonable assumptions. Until Kepler there was NO hard data either way on ther heliocentric versus earth centric solar syustem. But guess what? That WHOLE time the earth WAS in fact going on around the sun. kepler didn’t have the MRI but he was right.
Turns out that gravity was a warping of space/time. Eintstein finally got the right MRI but it was true for the previous 14 billion years regardless of whether the data was in dude.
In conculsion, you are right in that I dont actually know. But when loking at all the warning signs, at all the velocity issues and nervousness from more qualified people than I what is more likely?
That Pineda was just odey dokey fine, then he kinda tweaked something, and then on the most recent pitch he threw he tore his labrum in his tweaked shoulder and that NONE of these remarkably consitent events were in any way conected? RO that actually he had a weakened shoulder (probably from an assinine “emergency” stat on TEN days rest for the fucking dreadful 2012 Mariners. That in that start, with his mechanics a bit out of wack and not really able to ramp it up he kinda pushed it and pulled that muscle. that seeing this the mariners recomended rest (as this is the best course fof action anyway. And then when Pineda came into camp and the velocity WASNT there he pushed way too hard, and blew the damn thinkg out.
THATS the reasonable inference to ake here. No ones fault (except I guess the yankees for letting him throw in the ridiculous Velo-Gate media circus surrounding him). SHit just happens.
Though now that I’ve written this I have convinced myself that they probably should have moved him to the back fields after that second start to “get his conditioning right”. This woulda caused some bad headlines but they would have been preferable to the “OMFG WHY ISN”T PINEDA THROWING 105!!!!!????!!!???!” headlines.
Now the headlines are an unmitigated idsaster.
“PINEDA ACTUALLLY A ROTTEN TOMATA!!??” NY POST.
Only thing worse will be if Montero hr’s tonight. Remind to not read Michael Lupica for about 3 weeks please.
Good fucking night. This blows
http://i2.kym-cdn.com/entries/.....piracy.jpg
nothing points to an arm/shoulder injury since the mid-point of last year, he was topping 98 and averaging over 94 in a Sept. 10 start last year. How does that point to an arm injury??
heres where you are wrong, hes a kid , unproven with a history of arm problems, with 2 pitches (fly ball pitcher) and you trade your best asset for an unproven guy with arm issues.
History of arm problems? He had one elbow injury in his six-year career before the trade. Don’t exaggerate to prove your point.
Still IS a history, though. If he had no arm problems, there would be no history.
That’s kind of like how Greg Maddux had a history of DL time b/c he was on there one time…in his 20 year career.
Technically, you’re right. Mike’s right too that it’s a gross exaggerration.
This article in Baseball America is old (2004), but I thought this bit about Joe Saunders was interesting. His labrum injury, like Pineda’s, happened after his first off-season, when he came to camp a little out of shape:
“For the first time that he could remember, Joe Saunders couldn’t pitch anymore.
“I came in a bit out of shape. It was my first offseason, and I was a little slack about it,” Saunders says. “I mean, I’d been throwing since January, when practice starts for college, then a full season, then Rookie ball and Class A. I think I had three weeks off the whole time. I just needed a little time off.
“So I didn’t really work out like I should have, and came in out of shape and hurt myself. I took pitching for granted. I won’t make that mistake twice.”
Source: http://www.baseballamerica.com.....ulder.html
that’s what I’m saying. I’m willing to bet it’s more likely that he was fine at the time of the trade and showed up to camp out of shape and hurt himself trying to throw 97 again than he was injured and Cashman got duped.
As of right now I’ll place more blame on that fat shit for not staying in shape than Cashman until given reason to think otherwise.
But everyone was celebrating having another fat shit on the team just a few months ago!
“Oooohh! All the white batters are gonna be scared of another fat black dude throwing a ball!!??!”
Luckily we informed them that Michael Pineda is not black.
Mike does Pineda accrue andy service time this year?
Yep.
at least he’s “cost controlled”
Montero does not exist in this dojo. (repeat over & over).
I can’t believe Betances will actually have more Impact than Pineda will for 2012. What a demoralizing loss to the team…
Hughes I expect must be feeling pretty good.
This sucks so much.
Disgusting.
- Not Cashman’s fault, blame the doctors who missed it when he underwent a physical prior to the trade.
- If the injury occurred during spring training then we just got unlucky.
- Trades are not subjective, there is such a thing as a bad trade, and so far this does LOOK bad, although we won’t ever know for a couple years from now. A lot of variables here, Montero’s and Noesi’s performance, when Pineda returns and how he performs when he does, and Jose Campos effectiveness at the Major League level. Again, YEARS down the road.
Also, there is no good news here MIke. This was possibly worst-case scenario.
Exactly what I thought. What a waste. And there was just a post about needing a DH. How nice would it be to have Montero? Or have Lee in 2010 and possibly beyond if he had re-signed with us. Now we have nothing. And our only insurance policy for the rotation is a 40 year old who hasn’t pitched in over a year. Great job, Cashman.
There’s absolutely no evidence whatsoever that Lee would have resigned. There’s also his total lack of interest in signing as a free agent for more money in NY to suggest he would in fact have bolted as a free agent and left NY holding the bag.
@BryanHoch: Target date for Pineda to be on a big league mound will be May 1, 2013
I can’t imagine he was hitting 93mph with a torn labrum. Either it’s a tiny tiny tear or he did it during that last rehab outing like Cashman suggested.
I think Cashman should stick to what he’s good at – buying superstars with a track record. His inability to evaluate young pitching is beyond question right now.
He certainly has failed a lot- Kept Hughes and Joba and traded the best of the 3 away to Arizona. Maybe we should just develop these guys and trade them away like Seattle did. Go get King Felix or Hamels. No sense wasting time waiting for guys like Hughes and Joba to come around cause they never will. Nova dedicated himself and that’s why he’s successful.
Probably true. Results are results, and as far as pitching goes, the results for Cashman are very bad. In this case, what appeared to be a rotation-redeeming, cost-controlling deal has now fallen through, at a time when these managerial owners are talking about budgetary austerity, when people like Granderson, Swisher, and Cano are approaching the point at which new contracts are going to be needed, and when others (Rivera, ARod, Jeter [yes, definitely Jeter too!], and Pettitte are, in Mickey Rivers’ metaphor, getting to the point where they’ll be needing meals on wheels.
Nova, Wang, Robertson, Phelps, Logan, Campos, Banuelos. Shall I continue?
Pointing out some of the good ones is fine, but let’s not over-correct here.
and who are the failures? Joba, Hughes who else? Before the big 3 the yankees hadn’t bothered growing pitchers in over a decade at that point
but hey lets not let facts alter narratives
I just died a little…
FYI from John Hopkins:
http://www.hopkinsortho.org/labrum_tear.html
The sentences gives me some hope: “However, a vast majority of patients have full function of the shoulder after labrum repair, and most patients can return to their previous level of sports with no or few restrictions.”
I wonder if “most patients” refers to you and me or a major league pitcher who contorts his arm in an unnatural motion a hundred times a game.
But I hope it means athletes.
I understand that Hal would like to maximize the profits of the team, and I don’t begrudge him for that at all. However, after this news, the Yankees need to make a play for Hamels this winter (if he’s available), and if that means they can’t make the $189M in 2014, so be it. As of right now, Phil Hughes is 3rd on the SP depth chart for 2013. A lot can change between now and then, but their long-term starting pitching issues are basically just as severe as they were at the start of the 2011 season now.
He’s trying to save a dime when it will cost him a dollar later. Darvish would count for 60M against the lux tax and help them get to the 189M number more than any other free agent. Not to mention that you have an aging offense that will need an elite young hitter soon, hitters aren’t cheap either. Keeping Cano, Granderson, and Swisher will get quite expensive. Montero could have helped mitigate the loss of one of those guys and allowed them to acquire a cheaper replacement without much drop off from the production from the lineup as a whole.
Terrible terrible decision. There’s no real way to argue against it, unless Pineda is a rich man’s King Felix for the next four years, which seems highly unlikely
Personally, I think Darvish is a completely separate issue than the Pineda-for-Montero swap, at least from a payroll standpoint. Theoretically, either Pineda or Montero would give you an elite player at very little cost. I was on the Darvish bandwagon although I can understand why they didn’t want to take on the risk. Thing is, if you don’t want to take on the risk, you end up paying more for the “sure” thing. Darvish for 110M is a lot, but Hamels might be 150M, and that doesn’t even get into the posting fee/luxury tax ramifications.
Exactamundo, LK. Exactamundo.
Luxury tax included, I figure CC will cost us close to $30 million per year.
At the price the Rangers paid, which, admittedly, we had no way of knowing, I estimate that Darvish would have cost us less than $22 million per year.
That’s including the luxury tax, of course.
Can we just keep our own God damned players! Now we have to hear all this about Pineda while Montero plays in Seattle.
This is just….terrible
And this is why you don’t trade 6 years of a high ceiling hitter for 5 (now 4 or less) years of a high ceiling pitcher…
Yeah, Pineda’s more of a sure thing because he’s had a few more months in the majors, but we’ll just ignore that young pitchers are extremely more likely to break down as shown here. Especially one who’s already missed most of a year with another arm injury.
It’s ok though, there’s a pitcher only like 5 years away who’s pitching well at almost the lowest league available to the Yankees. They always turn out well…
It’s ok though, I’m sure they can still get Brian Gordon back from overseas…
Agree on the volatility of young pitchers. I was thoroughly bashed for bringing that up at the time of the trade.
Okay, they’re more volatile, but what do you do about it? Should you ever use a high draft pick on a pitcher? Because there’s always (or at least 99.99% of the time) going to be a hitter of very similar value available. So do you stay away? If it’s always bad to trade a hitter for a pitcher isn’t it always good to trade a pitcher for a hitter? Should the Yankees swap all their pitching prospects for hitting prospects asap? Do you give up on developing young pitching altogether?
I don’t see any way of avoiding the problem. Pitchers are volatile, but you need pitchers, especially young cost-controlled ones. All you can do is try to build enough depth that when they flame out you still have enough.
I guess this changes the priority of the offseason.
get Cole Hamels at all costs.
Pineda may be ineffective for much of next season as it’ll take time for him to recover velocity, endurance, and command. The team will require a big dog to complement CC, and today, we just found out that complement is not going to be Pineda.
It might be even less. If the Phillies are out of it by midseason, pick him up.
Would cost us Banuelos, Campos, and … Oh, Mason Williams.
Rather than gut the remaining top tier prospects left, Cashman (or his successor) will opt to pay Hamels as a free agent.
Not unless we’re desperate. Always better to sign a guy than give up a whole heck of a lot of talent for him.
I was thinking with the austerity budget thing that Hamels would be a no go.
Now that they really can’t count on anything from Pineda, I would think they would have to completely reevaluate their plans for that.
Either scrap that plan entirely or have to spend more for pitching and less for hitting.
Say what you will about John Henry and Luccino, but at least they held Theo accountable for his bad FA signings.
They did? How?
They made him wear a gorilla costume silly.
They made him live in Boston.
Haha, no they didn’t. They let him walk on his own and weren’t even smart enough to negotiate the price ahead of time.
And got CHRIS CARPENTER for him. Oh… What’s that? Same name? Wrong team? Ok.. Nvm
Odds that this thread needs a spillover?
I’ll go 28%.
Apologies to all the people who showed concern with his velocity????
Let’s hear ‘em, oh smug ones.
I actually wonder if all the carping about his velocity might have been the problem. Who knows, but if he thought he was going to work his way into shape in spring training, then started hearing the carping about the velocity, and then muscled up before he was ready — maybe the carping is actually the root cause
tumbleweed rolls by
Besides Bedard, that list of pitchers attempting to come back from labrum issues includes Brandon Webb, Ted Lilly, Jeff Francis and Ben Sheets. They can point for inspiration to a few shining examples (the most famous case of a pitcher overcoming labrum surgery is Roger Clemens way back in 1985, but that seems to be something of an anomaly. Carroll writes in Rotowire, posing the question of why Clemens’ surgery. performed by renowned orthopedist James Andrews, was successful a quarter of a century ago while other pitchers haven’t been able to come back, “Dr. Andrews has an idea: ‘They’re not Roger Clemens.’).
Ben Sheets hasn’t pitched in about 2 years.
A quick search showed Roger Clemens, Curt Schilling, Cris Carpenter, Ted Lilly, Jeff Francis and Erik Bedard had labral repairs and came back to pitch effectively however many many more were pretty much done like Ben Sheets, Brandon Webb, Jason Schmidt, Mark Prior, Matt Clement, Chad Cordero.
Hopefully Pineda will be motivated to work his ass off in rehab and come back strong.
If it is arthroscopic, then I would think the prognosis is somewhat better than a regular full-on-incision; it likely means the tear is smaller, and the surgery itself will do less damage.
Unless they’re all arthroscopic now. I dunno.
This sounds like a question for Stefania Bell.
I have no idea, but I have to imagine that there are different levels of severity. I don’t know if this is what determines the come back rate or other factors, but it’s certainly possible. At least seems promising that they claim it’s relatively minor.
“discrete” is better than not. Maybe relatively minor but still uber-major.
Campos for Montero.
You know, if I don’t know any better, I would think Phil Hughes has some form of voodoo doll.
Given his spotty performance, any of IPK (traded in a smart move by Yanks b/c trade brought back Grandy), Joba (just an unbelievable series of poor management/bad luck/injuries), and Pineda (see post) could have his starting rotation spot right now.
Now, I love Phil, he was the first Yankee prospect I followed seriously throughout the system, and I hope like hell he succeeds spectacularly (and does so in Pinstripes). But it just seems like he gets chance after chance based on bad things happening to others.
Phil Hughes -”Is very bad to steal Jobu’s rum; is very bad.”
Micheal Pineda – “Up your butt, Jobu! Yo, bartender, Jobu needs a refill. ”
Joba Chamberlain – “We should’ve got the live chicken”.
It’s not Cashman they need to fire it’s the medical staff and the guys who evaluate pitching. Though he needs to be put on notice here. Young pitchers/volatility, that’s what everyone says about Hughes/Joba right? Why doesn’t this apply to trading your best prospect of the last 20 years for a young flamethrower? Isn’t the flame out rate high? Aren’t the Yankees the most valuable organization in all of sports? Wasn’t an elite young starter who proved that he can handle a full season’s work load available last year?
Instead they traded one of the finest hitting prospects of the last five or six years for a pitcher that might not even be effective ever again. The list of pitchers who had torn labrums isn’t promising folks.
That’s whose head I’m calling for. This plus the Aceves error is unacceptable.
Kind of reminds you of Jay Buhner dosn’t it.
No because Ken Phelps was never injured. He just sucked
Don’t say that to Mondesi!
No comprende. I feel like a need an RAB translator sometimes.
+10,000,000
*farts
I guess the moral of the story from Hughes last year and Pineda this year is that you NEVER rush a shoulder. In fact you may have to give it extra time.
Yeah. Everyone is jumping on the trade… how about the hasty ExST appearance that Cashman blames for the injury? I have no idea and maybe no one does, but I think it’s at least worth asking whether this injury would have been avoided with rest and no quick rehab assignment.
If I remember you were the first to fear trading Montero for Pineda because of the fragile nature of pitchers. The fact that he struggled in the second half and never threw a pitch for Yanks looks like Seattle didn’t like something about his arm.
The moral of the story is that you have to babysit these fatass fuck-boys. Regardless of who deserves the blame, Pineda and Hughes came into camp looking like the Pillsbury doughboy. There is no reason for these guys to be coming into camp out of shape.
I don’t know if that’s the moral of the story, but Hughes definitely came into camp last year looking like the Pillsbury dough boy.
You really have to wonder, with the $ involved, how some can be so lackadaisical about their conditioning.
I wouldn’t put it past Seattle that they sent us damaged goods.If I was Cashman i would ask the commissioner to look into this and possibly rescind the trade.
Why is everyone suggesting that Seattle MUST have traded Pineda b/c he was injured? Isn’t it at all possible that Seattle knew they had to reload their offense and saw trading Pineda for Montero as the best way to do it? We’re talking about a team that has one of the worst offenses in the league, you think they wouldn’t jump on a chance to pick up a potential star hitter, especially when their pitching situation seems to be fine?
You have to give some to get some, isn’t it possible that Pineda is what Seattle had to give to get what they needed?
Labia surgery? That doesn’t sound so bad.
Wait, what?
Pineda, not Pavano.
This is now twice in 2 years that the Yankees spend good money and in this case, traded a major asset for a pitcher who may never throw a single pitch in a regular season game for the Yankees.
Call it bad luck or bad decisions but the bottom line is that this really sucks ass.
What was the first one?
Pedro Feliciano
Didn’t we sign Pedro as a free agent? In that case, all we spent was money.
Isn’t that’s what I said.
good job cashman
First off, my heart goes out to the kid. It’s a real shame. Hopefully he still has a big future ahead of him.
As for what it means, I’m sure there are going to be a ton of people criticizing Cashman, and there’s no denying that this has blown up in our face. However I hope people don’t go overboard because it’s fundamentally unfair to judge a GM off any one move. We just don’t have enough information. It’s important to judge Cash on processes and not results and I don’t think a convincing case has been made that his process was flawed in this case. He doesn’t seem to have been hurt when they got him, and it’s not clear to me what they should have done differently since then. You don’t have to get 100% of choices to work out your way to be a good GM, just 51%. Even the best miss once in a while.
The killer thing here is going into next year without counting on Pineda. I wonder how this will affect the $189 by 2014 if they have to pursue pitching. I think Phil Hughes will be given a extra long reprieve now.
they will probably rush up Manny now and mess him up somehow too.
I hope they don’t rush Campos to save face. In the old George years, Campos would be called up to start tonight’s game in Texas.
Axisa, Convince me that we still have a chance to win the WS with this setback.
Just have to make the playoffs — it’s a lottery ticket after that.
With this pitching. Its very interesting that now the Red Sox seem to have a better rotation between the two of us. And our bullpen cant keep going at this rate.
They’re going to make the playoffs. That’s as good as you’ll get from any team. I’m saying that in April too.
lag7aynk says:
April 25, 2012 at 5:14 pm
Montero isn’t killing it. 254BA 2 homers.
This trade will prove to be excellent in the long run.
THIS !!!!!!! WORTH REPEATING!
But some you can keep asking for Cashman to be fired and calling Montero a ” lock hitter” after like 2 months of MLB experiences.
I will be the first to admit that Seattle is winning the trade so far, but Hector Noesi has had 1 good start and 2 horrible starts and Montero is not exactly killing. Campos is doing well, but its low A ball.
This trade is LONG WAYS from being define as bust or not but guys have a fun trying.
BTW I would hate to be with some of you in a foxhole when the enemy is approaching.
Some of the comments WOOOW!!!!
it is times like this that reaffirm my hatred for 80-90% of yankee fans. just god awful.
Dude this is ugly its Met-like type ugly.
Agreed. I wonder what the demographic is; I assume it includes a bunch of teenage boys with a storm of hormones raging through their somewhat bipolar bodies.
And a bunch of mouth-breathing Francesa parrots.
This is one of those trades best assessed years, not weeks or months, after the fact.
I don’t get why risk assessment, acceptance, and mitigation are such difficult concepts to understand and apply.
Let’s look at Montero’s numbers at the all star break. The kid is going to hit.
I won’t judge the trade a Mariners win should Montero hit .270/.340/.450 at seasons end … But, I would think that’s a pretty good baseline. Pineda by then would be a whole season removed from a ML start. So, it’s not looking good, friend for yr 2.
Agree. The problem here is and what people don’t get is that Yankees can produce this “Montero hit .270/.340/.450″ but with the way the B’s are developing they can’t produce Pineda upside even after a year removed.
If Montero becomes a monster and the Yankees end up having pay lots $$$ for offense then I can see the lost, but that’s far from being decided.
.269 wOBA for Montero to boot.
so instead of getting a great young pitcher for 5 years of cost controlled, does this mean we get 4 years ?
I tore my labrum in my hip and still managed to climb Mt. Kilimanjaro. I knew I was hurt, though. Can’t imagine that if Pineda was pitching with a torn labrum in the beginning of the season, he didn’t know it.
But that’s the thing with my torn labrum. It came on slowly over the course of a few months and gradually got worse. I figured it was normal training soreness at first, but the progression after a few months was a huge red flag. I think Pineda mentioned something about “normal soreness” in the spring…
How relieved is Phil Hughes right now?
probably not very because he still sucks. Staying in the rotation and sucking isn’t too great of a reward for Pineda getting injured, it’s not like he gets to take Pineda’s talent along with his rotation spot.
Is it even funny to say Phil “Labrum” Hughes?
*Gets booed off stage* Guess not.
I laughed.
I laughed too.
I jested about Hughes being relieved, but if he can’t get out of the 3rd tonite, he’s back on the hot seat.
Wow. Taken me some time to digest but here we go. The number one thing to remember is shit happens. Shit happened here today. I don’t know if this occured on the last pitch like they said, or this was a result of something else, but it sucks. Obviously it sucks, and I’m not saying otherwise.
Having said that, anyone who says the trade was bad is downright moronic. The thing we have to seperate is the trade and the results of the trade. I never bought Montero as the end all be all. Sure, he’s a good hitting prospect. There are many of them. (If his name was Jesus I can guarantee you that his fanship would be halved) However, the Yankees have quality hitters, as you saw Saturday. They really needed pitching and they got it. A young pitcher with the potential of Pineda is hard to get, and if I was Cash, I would have done the same.
A reason people are angry is because they think Pineda was injured coming into NYC. Again, we have to seperate getting damaged goods and getting goods that could be easily damaged. I don’t think Cash got Pineda with the intent of watching him rehab for a year, but as with any pitcher, it’s always a possibilty, especially with a young power guy like him.
As for anyone who says the Yanks should have traded Montero for Halladay or Lee, Lee would have been for half a year (However hard for me to defend that as I was elated about that potential trade). Halladay likely would have cost more than Montero, and even if you want to say Joba and Hughes aren’t very good now, we loved them back then in the same way we love a Man Ban now.
Overall, I think the injury hurts the Yankees now and in the long run, but a lot depends on A) How well Pineda can recover next year(Hate that I have to say that) and B) Jose Campos. Montero is gone. Forgotten. He does not factor in, because I think his performance in NYC would be different than in Seattle. We just have to hope that Pettitte comes back effectively and one of Hughes/Garcia (Hopefully Hughes because having a power fastball pitcher like him would do wonders for our title chances) to step up and soon. I don’t think the team is in as much trouble as some might say, but this is a disappointing day for Yankees fans.
Very good post.
Some sense at last.
thank you, you glimmering beacon of nonignorance in this sea of turdish cesspools
If we traded Montero for like Halladay or someone and then he torn his shoulder…the people who are pissed now probably wouldn;t be any less pissed. Injuries happen, it sucks it happened to Pineda. But it could have happened to any pitcher we’ve gotten.
After Hughes doesn’t make it out of the third inning tonite, you’ll be hoping Garcia finds his veteran wiles in Detroit.
“Having said that, anyone who says the trade was bad is downright moronic.”
Disagree. Anyone who says the trade is bad because Pineda came down with an injury way after the trade was made? Moronic, of course. But not loving that trade when it happened was not moronic.
(And, just to clarify, this is coming from someone who was rather on the fence about the trade, if not a bit for it, at the time.)
Well said. You can rationally oppose the trade, and I’m sure some do. But to judge the trade purely off one of the guys getting hurt is silly.
I think my word choice was too strong, I’m not really in a mood to think about that kind of thing. I was trying to say that condemning the trade based off of a love for Jesus was not fair, as Cash needed pitching and he got a pretty good one at the time.
You’re fighting a losing battle with the insults battle.
thank you, awesome post
Hey Axisa put this on as a article!
The results of the trade ARE the trade. A pitcher who had a velo dip, is under 25 is a fragile consideration. They didn’t trade for 1985 Dwight Gooden here, they traded for a guy that had a nice year and gave up a plus plus bat at catcher, who was ranked anywhere from the best to the fifth best prospect as an across the board consensus. He could have been named Adolph Bin Manson and people would have been very skeptical on the deal.
You CAN NOT separate the results from the trade, since there was a level of expectation. If, god forbid, he was in a car accident, then you can judge that, but he was a pitcher who got hurt pitching.
Lastly, as I said above, you will not convince me Seattle didn’t know something was up. “Can’t Miss Ace in Waiting” for Montero, fine but then they THROW IN Campos? It shows an urgency to execute the deal before this problem would be their problem. Shame on Cash for going down the road with them after the first Jack Z fiasco.
So what you’re saying in paragraph 3 is that the Yankees should AVOID making good trades because the other team must be trying to pull one over on us. That makes perfect sense. We should only make trades that seem very bad for us probably.
The profile of the trade was, by Cashman himself, was that it was a protracted dialogue, that MAY have been initiated by Seattle, but I may be mistaken on that. As the season drew near, Seattle, to complete the deal, threw in their number five prospect.
I’m not saying avoid making good trades, but I’m asking for some good common horse sense of the oldest rule in the trade book, if it looks too good to be true, it probably is.
Complete revisionist history to say the trade looked too good to be true when plenty of fans opposed it. It was certainly within reason.
The Mariners only approached 3-4 teams about a trade. If the Mariners were trying to ship him because he was “damaged goods”, they would have held open season and gotten far more than just two prospects (only one of whom is an elite talent) without having to include a prospect with the cieling Campos has (Look at the Gonzalez, and Latos deals). Also Pineda underwent an extensive physical that showed up clean, if there was even the slightest red flag, the deal wouldn’t have happened. Given the Feliciano debacle, its pretty obvious the Yankees have been more careful with their deals.
No you can. You seperate what you were looking for at the time of the trade vs. what actually has happened. If we knew exactly what each player was going to give every year, the game would be a lot less enjoyable to watch and follow.
Nice job completely forgetting that Pineda himself was a top prospect only a year before. Just because he didn’t show up on prospect lists due to MLB experience doesn’t mean he himself wasn’t universally acclaimed by prospect watchers. Montero didn’t have a MLB year to go off of, you are just looking at his Sept. stats, which was a mere hot streak.
Also I don’t think they expected 1985 Dwight Gooden, and his velo dip happened after the trade, not before. Campos as a throw in might have been stupid, but this is the man who signed Chone Figgins for four years and has essentially refused to get offense, aside from an unproven Smoak or Montero. Sometimes I wonder about how capable he is running that team.
Lastly, any catcher named Adolf Bin Manson really must have parents who hate him.
I’m not doubting Pineda is or was a hell of a good looking prospect. But what you’re saying is basically Carl Pavano was a good signing because who can predict injury?
And the velo dip was his second half last season. Could it be the wear and tear of a full season? Perhaps and it could have been the 11 days off, but my thinking if, if your’e trading a slam dunk bat for an arm, it had better be a slam dunk arm in return. You’ll tell me, there are no slam dunk arms, but there are guys who profile out to minimize risk. Once again, over 25, repeatable, sound mechanics, proven track record of success.
I’m less up in arms over trading for Pineda then I am giving up Montero and wasting such a great piece.
You can’t predict injury. That’s the point. Pavano was a good signing AT THE TIME. That’s what I’m saying. Pineda looked like a good pickup at the time, and I don’t blame Cash for making the move.
Last second wasn’t a major velo dip, not like the one we saw in ST, if I remember correctly. And why is Montero a slam dunk bat. I could have said Pineda is a slam dunk pitcher. Neither of those statements is correct. They both were unproven commodities, and that’s why this trade has been so scruntized.
You have to accept that a Montero straight up for anyone else deal wouldn’t have returned a minimum risk guy. The 1 for 1 straight up is again risky, but you can’t fault Cash for doing it.
You are acting as if Pineda was not good last year and never was a top pitching prospect.
Having said that, anyone who says the trade was bad is downright moronic.
No, if you hated the trade at the time, like I did this has to serve as a reinforcement of that feeling. You can’t judge the trade solely on the injury, you’re right, but you’re living in a fantasy world if you think that losing Pineda for a year doesn’t put a damper on it. I’m pretty sure no ML exec would let something like this change the way that they thought of the trade.
I never bought Montero as the end all be all. Sure, he’s a good hitting prospect. There are many of them. (If his name was Jesus I can guarantee you that his fanship would be halved)
He was drawing Frank Thomas comparisons from Keith Law, tore things up in September and was an extremely unique hitting prospect. His peers are guys like Mike Stanton and Jason Heyward. Calling him a “good hitting prospect” is like saying that “Darvish had a solid outing last night.” Huge understatement.
However, the Yankees have quality hitters, as you saw Saturday. They really needed pitching and they got it. A young pitcher with the potential of Pineda is hard to get, and if I was Cash, I would have done the same.
Yes, they do have several quality hitters, however as you also may notice they’re all getting up there in age. Cano’s the youngest hitter and he’ll be 30 this year, so while they have several quality hitters they also need to get younger in the line up too. While Pineda did show some tremendous skills, there’s also the cautionary tales of young pitchers. We just saw Hughes and Joba show worlds of promise and fail to live up to expectations. Not to mention that Cashman said that Montero was the best player he ever traded is and Cashman saying that if Pineda doesn’t develop into an ace that he’d consider this trade a mistake.
http://www.yankeeanalysts.com/.....rong-37658 (quotes about mid way through)
A reason people are angry is because they think Pineda was injured coming into NYC. Again, we have to seperate getting damaged goods and getting goods that could be easily damaged.
There’s a quandary, did the Yankee medical staff fail here like they did with Vazquez? Or did Pineda just get hurt in s/t.
I don’t think Cash got Pineda with the intent of watching him rehab for a year, but as with any pitcher, it’s always a possibilty, especially with a young power guy like him.
See here where it gets really bad. You can’t say that Pineda getting hurt is something that can easily happen, while at the same time saying that trading your very best prospect for him is a good thing. Split tongue/fork mouth.
As for anyone who says the Yanks should have traded Montero for Halladay or Lee, Lee would have been for half a year (However hard for me to defend that as I was elated about that potential trade). Halladay likely would have cost more than Montero, and even if you want to say Joba and Hughes aren’t very good now, we loved them back then in the same way we love a Man Ban now.
Again there’s a lot more contradiction here. I personally liked Montero far more than I ever liked Joba or Hughes, he’s the first prospect that I followed from his signing to his debut. For lots of us that was the same way. As far as Halladay/Lee go, you will be getting fewer years but you’ll also be getting established products. Even though he threw 170 innings in the majors Pineda is still somewhat of a wild card. Will the change up develop? Will he get hurt? Will he be able to maintain that velocity? With Halladay and Lee those questions don’t exist. As far as Manny, and for that matter Betances, goes…I think more of us are more willing to deal both of them than we would have been had we not witnessed the Hughes/Joba debacle, and I think the Yankees have more of a plan of what to do with them than they did Hughes and Joba.
Overall, I think the injury hurts the Yankees now and in the long run, but a lot depends on A) How well Pineda can recover next year(Hate that I have to say that) and B) Jose Campos.
Well Cashman says full recovery in a year…doesn’t exactly inspire the most confidence given his track record on the subject, but he knows more than we do, not that that makes him right.
Montero is gone. Forgotten. He does not factor in, because I think his performance in NYC would be different than in Seattle.
Obviously not, but you’re crazy if you think people won’t still whine about him. How many football fans still complain about past drafts? I know Cowboys fans that are still mad about taking Terrence Newman (a pro bowler none the less) over Terrell Suggs. Sports fans hold grudges for quite sometime, part of the great thing about sports really. I still reminisce about Rocket throwing the bat at Piazza, the double steal, the last day of the 2011 season, signing Mark Teixeira…the door does swing both ways though. I’m still mad about the Javy trade, too. Part of remembering days of yore is remembering the good ones as well as the bad ones. Though you sort of buried the lead here, SafeCo is hell on RHH and Yankee Stadium is more neutral, conversely Pineda has an advantage at SafeCo and a disadvantage at Yankee Stadium. While Montero is struggling at SafeCo his numbers are slightly depressed by the park he plays in.
We just have to hope that Pettitte comes back effectively and one of Hughes/Garcia (Hopefully Hughes because having a power fastball pitcher like him would do wonders for our title chances) to step up and soon. I don’t think the team is in as much trouble as some might say, but this is a disappointing day for Yankees fans.
So we have to count on a junk baller, a guy who’s in his 40s and hasn’t pitched in over a year, and a guy that hasn’t been effective for a year and a half. Awesome. I do agree with your last statement, though…CC, Kuroda, and Nova should be good enough provided Pettitte’s somewhat serviceable and they get something for a fifth starter. Just have to hope those elite bats you mentioned earlier like Teixeira and A-Rod come to life.
I’ll respond to each paragraph.
1. To say “I was right, this was a bad move, this reinforces my bashing of the trade.” is stupid. You’re combining two seperate events. This injury is totally unrelated to the trade. It’s not like the Mariners caused it. The Yankees knew what they wanted last winter and they got it. Obviously this will impact how much production the Yanks recieve from Pineda, but there’s still lots of time for Pineda to become what the Yanks wanted.
2. Comparisons to peers and past players are only that, comparisons. Many people get compared to other players. Pineda himself has been compared to great pitchers. We don’t know that Montero would have been Frank Thomas any more that we know Pineda will be say Curt Schilling. You have to focus on what the Yankees were looking for. By trading Montero for Pineda, they showed that they wanted a possibly great pitcher over a possibly great hitter. Montero could still be great, but the Yankees weren’t interested.
3. Actually, Martin, Gardner, and Nunez are younger than Cano. I do agree that the lineup is aging and it would have been nice to have a young Montero to build around. Just because the hitters are old (and by old you are saying early 30′s for everyone other than Jeet and Arod, by no means washed up) doesn’t mean they can’t produce. It’s not like hitters reach 30 and suddenly say “I’m done.” Just look at Derek this year. Also, we have many other young players coming up through the system, so to cite youth as a reason to keep Montero, while legit, shouldn’t be a driving factor in defending the trade.
4. That’s a question that we don’t know right now. He could have gotten hurt in ST, or it could have been a failure on the medical staff. From what we are being told, it was in the rehab game that he tore the labrum, so that’s no failure on the medical staff.
5. I can say that, beccause it’s the truth. Cash acknowledged that it was risk to get Pineda. As for every pitcher, there is always a risk of injury. It’s the nature of pitching. The potential reward in the rotation was much higher than a solid bat at DH.
6. Here’s a major debate point in this. Would you want the established pitcher for Montero and more or a high risk, high reward for just Montero? It all depends on what you think. If you say Halladay or Lee, that’s fine. I was just as excited as all of you were about possibly getting Lee two years ago. However, you can’t discount the other side, which is giving up less for a lower cost, longer term pitcher who could potentially outpitch Halladay or Lee over the life of his Yanks tenure. It’s not off to a very great start, but looking at both sides pre trade, it depends on what you think.
7. What Cashman track record are you speaking of? I personally would take what he says as the highest source of information because, aside from doctors, he should know best.
8. I didn’t say people wouldn’t whine about him (just look at 80 percent of RAB threads since January). I was merely saying that he should not be factored into Pineda’s performance. the fact that Pineda got injured isn’t Montero’s fault. The door certainly swings both ways. That’s why we’re fans, right?
9. I agree that this isn’t an ideal situation, but it’s what we got and we just have to hope for the best.
1. To say “I was right, this was a bad move, this reinforces my bashing of the trade.” is stupid. You’re combining two seperate events. This injury is totally unrelated to the trade. It’s not like the Mariners caused it. The Yankees knew what they wanted last winter and they got it. Obviously this will impact how much production the Yanks recieve from Pineda, but there’s still lots of time for Pineda to become what the Yanks wanted.
Yes, well you totally ignored what I said. I didn’t like the trade at the time and now I’m starting to hate it. The injury is absolutely related to the trade, young pitchers have a higher injury/bust rate than hitters do…that’s part of the trade and part of the reason why I didn’t like it. Looking at the Yankees this year it’s hard to say that they got what they wanted, they may have thought they got what they wanted but Cashman himself even said that unless he develops into an ace this trade would have been a mistake. Is there time? Well yes. Can Phil Hughes still develop into an ace? Sure I guess. Are either likely? I don’t think so.
2. Comparisons to peers and past players are only that, comparisons. Many people get compared to other players. Pineda himself has been compared to great pitchers. We don’t know that Montero would have been Frank Thomas any more that we know Pineda will be say Curt Schilling. You have to focus on what the Yankees were looking for. By trading Montero for Pineda, they showed that they wanted a possibly great pitcher over a possibly great hitter. Montero could still be great, but the Yankees weren’t interested.
No one’s saying that Pineda wasn’t good, you however understated just how good of a hitting prospect Montero was and still is. Even then if Pineda is Schilling the Big Hurt is better in my book. I’d hardly say that the Yankees weren’t interested in Montero’s services, just that they placed a higher premium on pitching. I agree, there’s a premium on pitching and it seems that anymore you have to overpay. However, it seems that you’re overpaying a bit much. Pineda was still relatively unproven at the time of the trade and we’ve seen pitchers come out throwing gas and then just lose it. Joba’s not throwing like he did his rookie year or in 2008, and neither is Lincecum. Young flame throwers carry an inherent risk that comes along with their upside. It’s like you just completely ignored Montero’s excellent skills and tremendous reputation and said “yeah but there’s lots of those” and act like Pineda is the holy grail of talent to acquire.
3. Actually, Martin, Gardner, and Nunez are younger than Cano. I do agree that the lineup is aging and it would have been nice to have a young Montero to build around. Just because the hitters are old (and by old you are saying early 30?s for everyone other than Jeet and Arod, by no means washed up) doesn’t mean they can’t produce. It’s not like hitters reach 30 and suddenly say “I’m done.” Just look at Derek this year. Also, we have many other young players coming up through the system, so to cite youth as a reason to keep Montero, while legit, shouldn’t be a driving factor in defending the trade.
Forgot about Gardner, but even he’ll be 29 this year and Martin is likely on the way out. The line up’s going to be a problem soon, yes there are some players that produce past their 30s, however the list isn’t that long. DJ’s having a fantastic start, but you really can’t on the one side of your mouth say “there’s still plenty of time for Pineda” and cite 18 games for Jeter as a reason that some hitters can still produce late into their careers. I love DJ like none other, but what do you think he’ll do next year? A-Rod’s slumping and ended last year on a weak note…what do you think we’ll see from him next year? Teixeira? The point is that we’re going to see diminishing returns from the majority of the line up soon, and Montero gives them a chance to see a guy that will be better in 2014 than he was in 2013. I don’t think we can say the same about the majority of the line up. Who are these young players you speak of? Austin Romine? I’m unsure he’ll even be able to hack it with the bat as a major leaguer, his bat hasn’t developed the way you’d like it too. In the lower levels there’s some promising guys but soooooo much can go wrong there that you really can’t count on it. At any rate it seems like they’ve had more pitching in the minors than hitting, thus increasing the need to keep Montero.
4. That’s a question that we don’t know right now. He could have gotten hurt in ST, or it could have been a failure on the medical staff. From what we are being told, it was in the rehab game that he tore the labrum, so that’s no failure on the medical staff.
Their track record hasn’t been great. Pineda, Vazquez, Aceves, Freddy over Bart, Pavano, Wright, and every left handed reliever they’ve ever signed. They’ve also had issues keeping Joba and Phil healthy as well, dead arm for Phil and TJ for Joba. I’d say the medical staff could stand to improve.
5. I can say that, beccause it’s the truth. Cash acknowledged that it was risk to get Pineda. As for every pitcher, there is always a risk of injury. It’s the nature of pitching. The potential reward in the rotation was much higher than a solid bat at DH.
And that’s the problem with the move, it’s a high risk/high reward proposition. Much like drafting Ryan Tannehill there’s a good chance that he won’t work out, he’s only had 21 college starts and played some as a WR before he played QB. There’s the inherent bust rate that college QBs face when coming to the NFL along with the issues that Tannehill specifically has, however if he works out whoever picks him will have a QB that they can rely on for a decade. Because of this risk drafting him high still carries quite a bit of risk and doesn’t really make it the best move. You’re still stuck on this “solid bat,” Montero has every chance in the world to develop into an elite hitter. All the skills are there, that’s far more than solid. Even if Pineda were healthy, he’s still basically a two pitch pitcher and would need to add a third pitch to be an ace. To me that sounds like a rich man’s Hughes, not exactly what I’d trade Montero for.
6. Here’s a major debate point in this. Would you want the established pitcher for Montero and more or a high risk, high reward for just Montero? It all depends on what you think. If you say Halladay or Lee, that’s fine. I was just as excited as all of you were about possibly getting Lee two years ago. However, you can’t discount the other side, which is giving up less for a lower cost, longer term pitcher who could potentially outpitch Halladay or Lee over the life of his Yanks tenure. It’s not off to a very great start, but looking at both sides pre trade, it depends on what you think.
See I have a feeling that this will be the Joba debate 2.0,but anyways I’d rather take the sure thing when dealing rare commodities like Montero. Even if it’s for less time so much can go wrong with pitchers like Pineda, as we just witnessed. I’d take the sure thing, I’d always rather pay two bucks for something I love than one for something I merely kinda like.
I addressed seven earlier, but as to the last two, I like to pretend like Montero doesn’t exist…makes things easier for me.
Your Number 4 point:
This can go both ways since the Yankees initially made the choice to sign both Freddy and Bartolo last year, they both ended up doing very well, but we all knew it was a crap shoot for a repeat success for either man, can’t fault anyone on that because there isn’t any amount of scouting that could tell you either one would be able to repeat.
Your #5
You bring up Tannehill as a reason not to go risky, but what about last year? Everyone was saying “Don’t draft Newton, he’s another Jamarcus Russell, he’s a bust” Panthers took a shot, and were rewarded with a young man who is not only a franchise QB but had the best statistical year a rookie QB ever had. Also the idea that Pineda was “just a two pitch pitcher” has been debunked because he was capable of adding and substracting velocity, movement and even type of break on both his FB and slider. That’s a rare skill for a 22 yr old, now 23 yr old; also even in ST he was showing comfort with his changeup as well as a desire to actually use the pitch that I have never seen with Phil Hughes. Pineda velocity or no velocity is a pitcher, not a thrower like Hughes or like many of the players his age.
THANK YOU !!!!!
Someone that will stay in the foxhole with me !!!!!!
LOGIC!!!!
GREAT POST
who cares????? just buy the next expensive starter on the market.
YES! YES! YES! YES! YES!
*sends diminutive girlfriend character backstage*
Word. I can stop reading (or at least, drafting responses) to this thread. I couldn’t put it better or more plainly.
Since he won’t throw a pitch in the majors in 2012, does this delay his free agency by a year?
Nope, about 1.5 years of that 5 years they acquired is basically shot now.
I’m going to remain positive for Pineda’s outcome considering the following pitchers had labrum tears and surgery.
Roger Clemens – 1985
Curt Schilling – 1995
Chris Carpenter – 2002
Who’s going to flame this dude for giving examples of other players with similar situations??
Die.
For pointing out that he is counting on Pineda being like 3 of the greater pitchers of this generation instead of listing some of the ton of other pitchers who’ve had this and not recovered anywhere near as successfully, if at all?
I love how this counts as being part of ‘good’ fans and commenters.
I’m not counting on him to be one of “the greater pitchers of this generation” and no where did I imply that. I’m not counting him out considering pitchers have returned from this injury.
I don’t take his comment as counting on Pineda turning out like those pitchers
Just searching for a glimmer of hope to try to stay optimistic … no harm in that
STOP LEAVING THIS PLACE! PLEASE!
Didn’t know that about Clemens and Schilling, Carpenter had injury problems after the labrum tear surgery too, but he was still able to put together a few CYA quality seasons…good to know.
Anibal Sanchez as well.
So…isn’t this gu-reat??
Out of legitimate curiosity, if you don’t like the tone of the posters here, why are you around so much?
If anyone cares, Chris Carpenter had a torn Labrum and had surgery on it in 2003. The year after surgery he pitched 180+ innings with a 3.47 ERA. Just sayin…
I think some around here would rather jump of the ledge than realize he could return and pitch well.
Let me guess: I shouldn’t bother with the 151 comments above me.
Oh, sweet sweet bottle of whiskey. You’re going to come in handy once I put the kid to bed tonight.
So anything else royally fucking sucky happen today?
sigh. there are some thoughtful and rational comments above, sure, but you know who they’re from, and it just ain’t worth it. i’m going to skip the comments here fr a few day prob…cause…well, you know why. too many flapjacks
I didn’t know that thoughtful and rational was putting a positive spin on losing arguably your second best starter for a year, and losing the guy you just traded your best hitting prospect in years for.
I don’t think there is a positive spin on this. Does that surprise you?
The only thing resembling a positive spin is that, because this is the franchise this is, this potentially goes down as a gloriously bad trade, and nothing else. The team will recover. The Bronx will not burn. They’ll field an effective starting rotation and lineup for years to come. Maybe that rotation will feature Michael Pineda. Maybe it won’t.
I have no clue whether grievances can be filed, etc. I’m no lawyer. I guess this all could actually be amazingly bad luck. Perhaps the Mariners knew something. I have no friggin clue and am not going to begin to guess.
I guess that, in my younger, pre age-37 years, I may have screamed and yelled and called for Cashman’s head. I’m glad I know better now.
I agree with you generally, but that still doesn’t mean that this can’t piss you off. Nor does it mean that they shouldn’t look as to why this trade failed and get better. I’ve have a problem with the way that they evaluate pitching and players’ health. Just because they’ll still be a good team even while doing a crappy job at evaluating pitchers doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t get better at it.
Look, if someone said “kiss the playoffs good bye” I’d yell at them too, because it’s a stupid thing to say…but for those of us who want to see the Yankees get better at evaluating pitching and players’ health? I hardly see the issue.
Well, but that’s still a generalization. I think there’s a good chance they royally blew this, that the Mariners knew something, etc. Sure. The alternative is really bad luck and, since I can’t say the former for sure, I can’t assume and just run with it. Neither can you. Therefore, I don’t think we can make that generalization. Not when this is the same franchise, with the same team running it basically that, even within the lifetime of the youngest guy on here, has won five championships.
Yes, McNulty, be mad. I’m……mad as well, but we’ve all been through enough ups and downs with this franchise that we know something good will happen to make us feel better, probably sooner rather than later. Isn’t thinking that better for your mental health, or am I being a “stupid fucking homer” deserving of a roast at the start of the next game thread again? There’s only so much steam I’m willing to blow over sports. Sorry.
I’m really glad you wrote the above. It’s the first time I’ve felt I could have a real online conversation with you.
One more thing: I’d take the trade back if I could, but I can’t, and have no clue whether they can. I still have to go back and root with all my heart tonight for Phil Hughes. Yes, I intend to be a big fucking homer at the start of the game thread. You wouldn’t have it any other way.
The homers here get pretty sickening, yes there’s not a whole lot the Yankees can do to where they screw things up so badly that they’re the Pirates or out of contention in general. That being said the goal for the Yankees is different than it is for any other team. Over the past 15 years there hasn’t been a single season where winning the world series wasn’t a realistic goal in April. It’s a high standard but I think that’s the standard that they hold themselves too, they’ll never be the Pirates or the Royals…but here’s the thing they’ll never be the Pirates or the Royals meaning that just getting to the playoffs isn’t enough for them.
These past few seasons have been a start but hey, shit happens…sometimes your guys hit huge fly balls that just die at the warning track and Ivan Nova gets hurt. CC hasn’t been great the past two seasons in October, and that happens too…I guess.
I think they’re a well ran team, and I’m not a “fire Cashman” type of guy. It takes a certain personality to run the Yankees and I think Cashman has it, I think he’s a good GM. However, it’s these little mistakes here and there that just drive me nuts: Javy, left handed relieving, Soriano (not him but still), and maybe Pineda too…imagine how good they’d be if they didn’t screw these things up?
Another thing too: Rooting for Phil Hughes is a useless endeavor, I tried it it just doesn’t work. The guy’s funny looking anyways. Also, more importantly, the game’s getting tougher. The Rays aren’t going anywhere anytime soon, the BJs are getting tougher, the Rangers are a legit powerhouse, the Angels seem to be doing fewer stupid things, Detroit’s got a great team, and if the Red Sox ever point the guy away from their foot they’re as tough as anyone. There’s also draft and amateur spending caps that will be taking place soon, Mark Newman even said he’s unhappy with this. While, yes, I’ll agree that it hurts some temas more than the Yankees it’s still a disadvantage. Other teams are catching up, and the league’s helping a few of them catch up.
I’m expecting my dog to be dead when I get home.
All I have to say is Fuck fuck fuck fuckidy fuck.
So you’ve found a way to spin this into a positive by denigrating those that disagree with you…this news sucks and trade is starting to look like a disaster. There’s no other way to spin this.
Isn’t that your M.O when people disagree with you?
I go to their superiors to get what I want and just do an end around.
Is that anything like a reacharound?
That’s what you got from my comment? You need some online anger management help.
Oh my god is he going to die…LOL
This is a direct result of Arod’s contract and Hal Steinbrenner’s grotesque financial mismanagement. You have ARod leading the list of untradeable future DH’s, so you trade a young DH for young pitching in the hope that you can deal from a position of excess and save money on the mound.
The problem is that every pitcher is one pitch away from big trouble.
Not to mention that, despite the Yankee rhetoric, Montero is perfectly competent behind the plate.
The Yankees essentially traded another Jorge Posada (who was also thought to be weak defensively when he was young, and with whom they did just fine) for another Brien Taylor. No matter how bad a GM Ben Cherington is, he will never make a move worse than that.
We can only hope that Hal Steinbrenner will draw great satisfaction from being under the cap in 2014.
Hahahahahaha oh wow. This is just impressive. Well done, 10/10.
…wow talk about looking through the hindsight glasses with rose coloured lenses. Montero, “perfectly competent behind the plate” according to whom? I remember every single scout talking about Montero’s defense as Mike Piazza level bad. Jorge “just fine (defensively),” I remember knowing we had a sub par defender behind the plate but not caring because of how good he was offensively. “Hal’s grotesque financial mismanagement (in relation to Alex’s contract)” I do believe Hank pulled the trigger on this, but maybe I’m misremembering(I’m not)
It’s Yankee fans like the ones posting on this thread today that make me ashamed to be a Yankee fan sometimes. Do I support every move the team makes? Hells no. Letting Pettitte walk all those years ago was monumentally stupid. As was jerking Phil/Joba from the pen to the rotation. Trading for Javy Vazquez part 2 was incredadumb.
But to sit in your comfy little computer chairs and demand Cashman’s head because a player he traded for got hurt post trade? With the same injury that both Chris Carpenter and Curt Schilling had and came back from successfully? That’s just fucking dumb.
Especially when everybody is saying that Montero is a lock as a great hitter for the next twenty years. His OPS this season is a whopping .643. That’s worse than everybody’s favorite whipping boy this year, Russel Martin.
So everybody, just take a god damn chill pill, and hope that Pineda recovers, and comes back healthy and helps us win the World Series next season. Because it sounds like those of you who were against this trade from the start(honestly I was and still am on the fence about it) are almost happy that Pineda is hurt because you get to beat your chest and scream how your smarter than everybody else.
Hey, Plouffe, you might want to watch Montero play.
But I do have reiterate my one main concern with the Yankees. The inability to develop quality starting pitching leads to teams having to make these trades.
Now I do support the trade. But this has to be one of the worst organizations at developing starting pitching.
Bentances and Banuelos sucking early is not helping either
A few of thoughts.
1) I know Cashman thinks this injury came on during his last outing, but it may be any number of factors and occurrences that conspired to to make this injury possible. It’s worthwhile to investigate it, but probably not in the heat of the moment right now. I’m guilty of this big time.
2) Can we officially stop with the prospect idolization and demolition? I was one few the few people that had doubts about Montero when he was a Yankee. Everyone quickly diminished them because of some form of prospect cognitive dissonance. Now everyone is pointing to him like he is some scrub. Listen, he had the same problems I pointed out in the past namely: he has had problems hitting RHP’s in his most recent and advanced years including the minors. He’s OPS’ing over 1.000 vs LHP’s this season. He’s OPS’ing .483 vs RHP’s. SSS of course, but if you add it up to the past few years, it’s a decent SS and it’s a trend. He can overcome it, of course, but let’s not be blind to future prospects imperfections in the future please. I think Montero is going to be a fine player BTW.
3) Can we understand that his velocity WAS a story in ST even before the injury. The way the story was handled by BOTH some in the press AND some fans was the issue. Can we consume news without placing a grade on it right out of the box?
Gave up Jesus for nothing!
I am surprised that so many of you expected him back this year. The news is devastating, but expected I thought.
And would it make anyone feel better about the trade if Jesus pulled a Buster Posey ’11?
As far as Cashman, he did what GM gets paid to do. If MP was damaged goods at the trade time, than its on the doctors. Speculate all you want, but pitchers get hurt and we just have to deal with it.
So you want Jesus to get injured just because your shiny new pitcher got hurt?
You sound like you’re going to pay off someone to “take care” of Montero. I’m suddenly scared.
Stair Cabral is still for hire.
*flips Axisa off*
*hurts elbow in process*
Do you read the posts or do you just skim through it?
/jayz’d
I don’t know what is more depressing. Pineda’s injury or the response of folks who have completely written this kid off and are carrying pitchforks to Cashman’s doorstep.
When it comes to injuries, I won’t trust management ever again.
You’ve entered Mets fan territory! But seriously, a lot of teams are cagey with injuries.
I became wary after the Aceves incident.
I became wart years ago after an article about the Yankees training staff and medical equipment and how out-of-date and subpar it was. No idea if I’d find it now, but I remember it, and it seems to keep coming true.
As much as this sucks, let’s stay positive.
The labrum can be repaired with a minimally invasive arthroscopic procedure and with stem cells, PRP injections and modern medical technology plus the fact that Pineda is a young strong bull, you’d have to think he’ll have a better chance to come back than some of these older pitchers with much more mileage on their arms who were done after labral surgery like Ben Sheets, Brandon Webb and Jason Schmidt.
Worst case scenario, we still have a young stud in A ball (Campos) and the financial resources (hopefully) to go out and get a Cole Hamels if needed in case the young arms in AAA aren’t ready to contribute by next year.
The biggest disappointment is that even under the best case scenario, we’re gonna have to wait until late 2013 and probably 2014 to see Pineda even approach what he was last year but like they say, patience is a virtue.
As an aside, thank god for the NFL draft over the next 3 days.
Amen, brother
Thanks for the nfl draft reminder. Can’t wait … I need the distraction from this terrible news.
Pineda was supposed to be the acquisition that would’ve kept the team away from the Greinke and Hamels sweepstakes. I don’t see that happening now. Pineda just cost the organization $20 million a year for the next six years.
Pineda should have felt something was worse than he admitted. To tell me one pitch tore he’s shoulder is BS.Just like Pavano and Hughes he must have masked he’s injury early on and played thru it.
Pineda has alot of time to get healthy but he’s suppose to be our #2 guy this year not two years from now.Thats why we Montero .
One pitch could very well tear the shoulder, as at some singular point it goes from not torn to torn
It actually can happen that way, strange as it may seem.
So much for too much pitching. This totally blows, I just hope he comes back strong next year. The shoulder is always scary.
Someone mentioned let’s look at Montero’s #’s after the all star break am I correct ?
If I recall doesn’t he really start hitting until after the second half ?
I feel like the Pineda dilemma for next season just lends itself inevitably to the off season hunt for a younger, but now expensive “wingman” for CC.
One of Greinke and Hamels will most definitely be in play now that Pineda will start next season in the minors in all likelihood (he’s got an option so that’s a small silvermlining).
Don’t worry, they’ll just be sure to lock up Garcia in November next offseason instead of December to keep him away from any other teams and make sure the rotation is full without having to use any ‘unproven’ pitchers.
Even though this thought is totally irrational, I really hope that Jack Z gets the worst case of drug resistant genital herpes in the history of mankind.
Well thank goodness for Andy showing up to spring training as an instructor!
The Yanks will clearly lose year 1 of the trade as long as Montero doesn’t post a negative WAR. But with consideration to Campos looking amazing in low A and as Mike updated, there’s early optimism in regards to Pineda’s ability to return to 2011 form, I don’t feel much different about the deal then I did yesterday.
That being said, Hughes just became pretty damn important.
Optimism in the scheme of torn labrums. That isn’t much to hang your hat on.
This is why you have pitching depth
Yankees are awful at scouting Latin American talent. Pineda’s injury this year means he will be a bust forever, and Montero will become the next Edgar Martinez.
Right-handed Bonds.
What does the scouting of Latin American talent have to do with this?
Cashman is a joke! You don’t trade your BEST prospect, and arguably the team’s best homegrown prospect since DJ for a maybe. He should be fired! If the old man was still here, Cashman would be exiled to the stables back in Kentucky….where he belongs eating cow shi*
If the “old man” was still here, there’s a good chance Montero was traded for a bloated contract long before Pineda became an option.
My baseball people kept saying Ubaldo Jimenez, Ubaldo Jimenez
bottom line..it’s a fireable offense.
a pitcher getting injured after being acquired is a fireable offense?
No GM would keep his job ever.
How long will the dumbass Steinbrenner comments last? How old did people expect him to live to? 85? 90?
The
Sky
Is
Falling.
Okay, now I’ll go read the notes above.
It’s official.
Worse then the Jets fanbase.
Oh, there’s still a few rock layers there. Still not even worse than the Mets fanbase.
Wow Cashman, Wow — I know it is a cliche but this is an epic fail
This article offers some hope
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn.....id=3024046
James Andrews was able to fix Clemons and Drew Brees after labrum tears.
It’s Clemens and Brees.
Clemens.
QB’s and pitchers are apples and oranges. Gannon came back from labrum surgery too. Brandon Wheedon says he can’t throw a baseball without feeling pain, but he can throw a football pain free and with pinpoint accuracy.
So who will back up Pineda, Sanchez or Tebow?
….and look what happened to Clarence Clemons.
WE ARE DOOMED.
Hahahaha too soon.
Clutch reference.
I had a feeling this shit would happen. The warning signs were there ever since ST with his diminished velocity and DL stint.
I don’t care if I’m being irrational right now. Michael Pineda = Useless sack of shit.
Well, at least you admitted to be irrational.
I seriously don’t understand why fans say things like this about players–as if being a professtional athlete means you are no longer a human being.
None of us know Mike Pineda. All we know about him is that he’s a pitcher who got hurt. Calling him an unhelpful container of excrement seems — a bit much.
Of all the people to blame, Michael Pineda is last on the list.
I know he likes to cook.
And eat based on his reporting weight…
None of us know Michael Pineda. Hence why we should evaluate him from a baseball perspective. From a baseball perspective he’s been a piece of shit. Literally not a single piece of good news about him has been posted since spring training. First out of shape. Then low velocity. Then shoulder tendinitis. Now a torn labrum.
How is it the biggest team in the country’s biggest city somehow ends up with the world’s least competent doctors?
Question: Is it possible to still hate the trade and think it was an incredibly misguided move while still realizing that the Yankees are still one of the best teams in baseball? I mean the Yankees have a pretty big margin for error, one that’s shrinking mind you, but that doesn’t mean things going wrong should be accepted with open arms.
who is accepting this with open arms?
Shit happenned. It sucks. The Yankees need to deal with it.
Im really hopeful that the Yanks pitch well enough this year that they don’t get desperate for a pitcher in the off-season.
What happened to Pineda is precisely why I am uncomfortable paying 125 mill plus (and that’s what it’s going to take) to get a pitcher’s decline years. Older pitchers get hurt too (see Santana, Johan and Lackey, John).
Don’t throw good money after an (unlucky) trade in a knee jerk move. Stay the course. Draft the arms and develop them/find the Kuroda’s that will give you value on short term deals.
Leave Hamels and Greinke alone.
Why? I’d love to have Hamels on my team, even into his mid-30′s. He looks about as good as anyone out there, and healthy too. It’s definitely not a “knee jerk” reaction to chase after him.
125 million is fine spent on a proven, elite pitcher. Hamels fits that bill. And Greinke can very well step into that tier if he gets a tad luckier on fly balls that seemingly became homers more than usual last season.
I said yesterday cashman the idiot went to the car lot to buy a corvette came away with a camero with a blown engine.
Ooooh. Great analogy. Superb.
Mike, you know of any other recent pitchers have this same injury and what was the recovery rate/time frame?
Every night, when I give my kid his pre-bed bath, I create the “Word of the Day” with his floating letters. Today’s word: L-A-B-R-U-M, as in “This is what we got a bad one of for Jesus Montero.”
I’m sure even McNulty would approve of that.
atta boy Cashman!
You guys know that Bad Luck Brian meme?
Darn those Friday the 13th trades!
Harump
How bad is it that we now have to rely on Andy’s return? Phil and Freddy better turn it around. I’m optimistic that Pineda will return to form when he’s fully recovered, but boy does this whole ordeal look like shit right now, completely ruined my afternoon.
Also, I hope Montero plays well. Still a huge fan of his.
You cannot judge this trade on the results so far, whether it’s Pineda’s injury, Montero’s slow start or Campos’ hot start in the minors. However, you absolutely can judge the thinking that went into the trade, and that’s where I think it’s fair to criticize Cashman.
What he seemingly failed to understand is that you cannot value hitting prospects and pitching prospects equally. A potential middle of the lineup bat is more valuable than a potential top of the rotation starter because the latter is so much more likely to flame out, most often due to injury. You have to account for risk in these valuations.
What’s more, it seems the Yankees looked at this trade as swapping from a position of depth (offense) for one of scarcity (starting pitching). But I think they got that wrong as well. The Yankees actually traded for something they already had lots of (young promising pitching) and gave up something they had almost none of (young promising hitting). Hughes, Nova, Noesi, Banuelos, Betances are a lot closer to Pineda than any of the Yankees other young hitters are to Montero. On the big league club, the youngest regulars are Gardner (28) and Cano (29). Then you’ve essentially got no big time hitting prospects until you reach the lowest levels of the minor leagues. Montero was the one guy the Yankees had to bridge the gap.
You develop young pitching by starting out with lots of pitching prospects, a small percentage of whom will stay healthy and effective. You don’t trade your best asset for any guy with a live arm.
Great post!
So much truth to this. Well stated. Montero has an elite bat. Slow start? Against new pitching in a new town as a 22 year old #4/5 hitter in cold weather? He will be a dynamite hitter just as he was as a 20/21 year old against older guys at AAA. His catching will get better too. Was he that bad that Wynegar/Pena/Girardi/Posada/Martin couldn’t help him?
He was dynamite hitter in AAA?
Not putting the same value on young pitcher vs. young hitting is why Campos was included. Noesi alone doesn’t get Campos, I don’t think. Also, Pineda had more MLB experience than Montero. Put all that together, and what you have is Seattle throwing in extra to make it happen.
This sucks, HARD. And it’s perfectly fair to have not liked the trade based on young pitcher injury risk. But I don’t think the problem was the NYY FO valuing hitters and pitchers the same.
Maybe this was already written in past posts, but I don’t have time to go through all 350+. Regardless of whether Pineda checked out fine when the Yanks acquired him, the huge dip in velocity in the 2nd half of last season SHOULD HAVE BEEN a huge red flag. To say (which Cashman has) that is was because of a large workload is simply a guess, and likely a bad one. How many times do young pitchers have such a dramatic dip in velocity when they are completely healthy? Why is this not being talked about more?
Did you know Jarr Jurrrrrrrjjjens just got sent to AAA for getting hit around due to a mysterious velocity drop?
Yeah, and if I recall correctly some people on here were advocating trading Swisher for him this winter.
The huge dip in velocity in the 2nd half…never happened.
The King pitching to Montero tonight and he didn’t scream that the kid can’t catch? What’s going on? Glad we found a DH who is also an EXCELLENT defender in the 40 year old/twice as expensive Ibanez. Who wants a guy who can only DH?
Please stop with the Montero as a catcher business. I’ve never read one scouting report that felt Montero could be a viable major league catcher other than the Yankees who were trying to boost his trade value.
I have no doubt he will be an excellent hitter but to expect the guy to be able to catch more than 30-40 games per year as a backup catcher is a pipe dream.
No pitcher ever screams that their catcher can’t catch. And Ibanez isn’t “the DH”. The Yankees are rotating their DH. For Montero to get the ABs he’ll get with Seattle, A-Rod-Jeter-Swisher-Tex,etc, etc would have to be benched for them to get rest. To fit the Yankees he would’ve had to become their f/t catcher. Seattle is wide open; the Yankees aren’t. People keep dropping that context. The Yankees had significant DH ABs already earmarked for veteran players — before Montero was traded. And the oldest of those veteran players are right-handed hitters.
But hey, in his first arbitration year in 2014 they’ll pay a much lower salary now.
Yippee…
Optimism? Spell it David Phelps.
Lets not forget we have Pettitte making a comeback. Injuries happen, the Yanks will move on and make the moves needed to win. That is what Cashman does, you cant blame him for a trade that so far has not worked out.
Pettitte tore that shoulder shit up in Pineda’s sleep.
Well, that’s shit. Thank god for Andy Pettite though, the Yankees should still have a solid rotation this year. When you look around baseball, you’ve got to say overall this could have been a lot worse without foresight – in signing Garcia), patience – in signing Kuroda and luck -in with Pettite getting the itch.
It’s been 17 years now. I wonder how many more years he would have to play for people to stop mispelling Pettitte.
It’s beccause you think your clear with the first double t and then you miss the second. It’s somewhat of a rookie mistake, but I’m guilty of it sometimes.
Him, Teixeira, and Mientkiewicz are the three Yankees I’ve really had trouble with the names in the past, but Mientkiewicz is hard for anyone. I just stopped writing it eventually.
Amazingly, I don’t think I saw Cole Hamels misspelled once in this thread.
Nooooooooooooooooooooooo
Someone at work bet me he would get 18 wins this year….so at least I won a beer. go me?
This is the kind of shit that happens when you give up on Jesus.
It was dumb trade because it was a toss-up as to who was goint ohave more value over the next 5 years and over the course of a career.
If it’s a toss-up, why not stick with the guy that ALREADY produced for you . In the playoffs. Don’t SSS me either, if it’s a toss-up, you go with your own.
Cashman had to prove how smart he was.
Pineda’s career is over. Or he’ll hang around the fringes throwing slop. Jesus is the next Piazza/Vlad.
Maybe Cashman was distracted by his stalker.
Or trade for the guy you need. And trade the guy you need less.
There’s that.
The “Pineda’s career hanging by a thread” thread.
Gonna be tough for him to come back, regain his dominant velocity all under the glare of Yankeeland.
I KNEW YOU COULDN’T STICK WITH DJ4K.
I hope a naked Greg Golson shows up at your door tonight.
So many computers-so little time.
2 out, RBI single for Montero. It’s like he knows this thread is going on right now…
It’s Yankee fans like the ones posting on this thread today that make me ashamed to be a Yankee fan sometimes. Do I support every move the team makes? Hells no. Letting Pettitte walk all those years ago was monumentally stupid. As was jerking Phil/Joba from the pen to the rotation. Trading for Javy Vazquez part 2 was incredadumb.
But to sit in your comfy little computer chairs and demand Cashman’s head because a player he traded for got hurt post trade? With the same injury that both Chris Carpenter and Curt Schilling had and came back from successfully? That’s just fucking dumb.
Especially when everybody is saying that Montero is a lock as a great hitter for the next twenty years. His OPS this season is a whopping .643. That’s worse than everybody’s favorite whipping boy this year, Russel Martin.
So everybody, just take a god damn chill pill, and hope that Pineda recovers, and comes back healthy and helps us win the World Series next season. Because it sounds like those of you who were against this trade from the start(honestly I was and still am on the fence about it) are almost happy that Pineda is hurt because you get to beat your chest and scream how your smarter than everybody else.
It’s not Yankee fans fault, it’s our entire culture. When something bad happens, there ALWAYS has to be someone to blame for it.
Nothing ever happens just because it happens, it’s always because of what someone else did wrong and that person must be identified and blamed.
That’s actually the opposite of our culture. There’s no accountability in this country for anything.
people blame everything on anyone every chance they get
This. All of this. (Except I was in favor of Javy part deuce at the time). Relax everyone.
Nah, I called Javy Part duece was a terrible idea. Even if what’s his name amounts to nothing in Atlanta, Javy just couldn’t pitch in NY
I wasn’t debating that point. Just saying I, personally, was in favor of it at the time. It worked out poorly for both team, actually. The Yanks might have even won that trade thanks to Boone.
That’s true, I forgot Boone came back in that trade.
And Vazquez going on to the Marlins netted the pick that is now Dante Bichette, Jr., if I’m not mistaken.
Not sure if serious.
Not sure if troll. Oh wait, nevermind. I am sure.
Wow, this isn’t great news to come home to.
I really liked Montero, but I supported the trade. I still support it. Pitchers get hurt; it happens all the time.
I think I’m going to blame the velocity hawks of the NY media, who may have pressured him into throwing harder and hurting himself – not because it’s necessarily true or because it will make any difference, but because I’ll feel a little better.
Can you imagine how awful Pineda must feel now?
I’m sure Pineda must be shitting.
That hundred million dollar contract is out the window, at least for now.
Maybe he’ll get in shape in the future.
“Pitchers get hurt; it happens all the time.”
Which is exactly why you don’t trade a hitting prospect for a pitching prospect. It’s one of the first things you learn playing fantasy baseball.
life is nothing like fantasy baseball
Well, except that Pineda has already had a more or less sucessful season for the Mariners. So there’s that.
Good God. I go out to get beer, and this is what I come back to? I swear, sometimes people look for ledges to jump off of.
Yes, this sucks. No, Cashman is not some kind of moron. His GM strength, actually, has been trades. This one doesn’t look good, but there are a couple of important things people are forgetting: Montero is NOT A LOCK. Why is everyone suddenly pretending he’s a future hall of famer? I’m going to say this loudly, and slowly. JESUS. MONTERO. IS. A. PROSPECT. He may be great, or he may completely suck. If we’re going to play the “Jack Z knew something game”, well maybe Cashman knew Montero wouldn’t be so great. He isn’t exactly lighting the world on fire. I know, SSS and all that, but I can only counter stupidity with stupidity. Fight fire with fire and all that.
How many times have people said we can’t judge this trade so early? Maybe Pineda recovers and becomes a beast. Maybe Campos develops into a beast. Maybe Montero is a AAAA hitter and goes the way of Shelly Duncan. Maybe Noesi shits the bed some more. Or maybe the exact opposite of all that happens. WE DON’T KNOW. This is a damn game. A hobby. If you can’t even try to look on the bright side of your own hobby, you must have a pretty damn miserable life.
That seems like a very long beer run. 3 hours?
I never knew jjyank lived in Utah.
Na, New Jersey. But I do have a life outside of RAB, I don’t check it every half-hour. I got some beers, relaxed for a little bit, checked RAB and BAM, 400 (largely negative) comments.
@forensic: Excuse me for not hitting refresh every 10 minutes all day.
Geez, no need to get snippy. It was a joke. Sorry.
Denial is strong in this one.
Hopefully he’s not the next Brien Taylor…
Fire Sterling NOW!
if any one saw my comment after the trade was announced,I PREDICTED Noesi would win more games than pineda,guess I got nothing to worry about along those lines.Brian Cashman need his sorry ass ran out of N
if any one saw my comment after the trade was announced,I PREDICTED Noesi would win more games than pineda,guess I got nothing to worry about along those lines.Brian Cashman need his sorry ass ran out of New York.
Well, sucks for Pineda that his career is over before he had a chance to make any serious money. The Yankees will be fine, though. They have the resources to recover from this.
Stay off the trampoline
I’ve had my shoulder done 6 times and I’ve torn my labrum completely off the bone where they had to drill metal stakes into my bone and then tie the labrum back down. Even with that surgery it was arthroscopic. Labrum surgeries are as far as I know always that way so this isn’t really great news as no matter how bad it was he’s not getting a large incision. Is Andrews doing the surgery? I really fucking worry about how bad our team doctors/staff/management are at reading MRIs and knowing what to do with that information. It’s a difficult thing to do but it scares me. Just going to Dr. James Andrews isn’t the end of the line. Then you have to go to a top of the line physical therapist which is about 40% compared to 60% for the surgery on what will determine how successful your return is. Then your baseball staff has to work him back in. You have to get pretty lucky to get a great doctor, therapist and then baseball staff. I wish him the best and as a person know how demoralizing that is. I’m not Michael Pineda or in the big leagues but my grandpa and dad (was signed by Tom Greenwade who signed Mickey Mantle) played pro baseball (that’s why I’m a Yankee fan) and I was an all state catcher. At the end of the year the 1st and 2nd team all state players play an exhibition game for scouts and colleges. I had to miss it to have my shoulder and both knees done and that was pretty much the end of scouts and coaches calling. It’s extremely demoralizing. I’m disappointed that he knew how much we gave up for him and what was expected of him in New York and how much he’d be scrutinized and he showed up out of shape. That could definitely be what happened to his shoulder. Still we need him for the future. This may turn into the Montero-Campos trade like the Boone Logan trade.
Good insight. I’m keeping my fingers crossed.
only sensible thing to do is call up campos
I should start off by stating that I generally have been a Cashman supporter, and I thought that trading Montero for a young pitcher made sense. (My view was that Montero was a DH for years for the Yankees, and getting a good, cost-controlled pitcher made sense). However, Cashman’s track record on acquiring pitching is mediocre at best — and would look a lot worse were it not for the Mussina and Sabathia signings (which I think that every team in baseball would have done, if they had the money).
Major Yankee transaction involving pitchers since 2000 (Let me know if I forgot someone):
2000 Mike Mussina signs as free agent
2002 Ted Lilly (and others) traded for Jeff Weaver
2003 Nick Johnson (and others) traded for Javier Vazquez
2004 Jose Contreras traded for Esteban Loaiza
2004 Carl Pavano and Jaret Wright signed as free agents
2005 Javier Vazquez (and others) traded for Randy Johnson
2006 Jaret Wright traded for Chris Britton
2006 Kei Igawa signs as free agent
2007 Randy Johnson traded for Luis Vizcaíno (and others)
2008 CC Sabathia and AJ Burnett sign as free agents
2009 3 players traded for Javier Vazquez
2012 Jesus Montero (and other) traded for Micheal Pineda (and other)
2012 Hiroki Kuroda signs as free agent
2012 AJ Burnett traded for cash
I think a lot of these trades were defensible at the time, so perhaps the Yank have just been really unlucky, but when the outcome is consistently bad, it does make you wonder if there is something wrong with the process.
I certainly hope that Pineda recovers and pitches well for us for years, but shoulder injuries are scary things.
I hated the trade when I first heard about it. Pre All Star break, Pineda was 8-6 with a 3.03 ERA in 18 games, 113 inn, 41R, 81H. After the All Star game, 1-4 with a 5.12 ERA in 10 games, 58 inn, 35R, 52H. He had a bad second half, contrary to what all the dimwits here keep arguing. I don’t care if his freaking strikeout to walk ratio was the same first half vs second half, I’m looking at his effectiveness. Clearly his effectiveness was decreasing. If you look at his starts against good teams, he got his butt handed to him by most of the good lineups. That, combined with decreasing effectiveness, is already two strikes against getting a young pitcher who we knew only had two effective pitches. It was a stupid trade.
The only dimwit is you if you keep ignoring everything Pineda did in the 2nd half
Walk rate was the same
strikeout rate was higher
GB% was much higher (which explains the higher number of hits, especially considering the Mariners just sucked in every aspect last year.)
Velocity was essentially identical
The only difference was he was giving up more hits, and era
Um, correct me if I’m wrong, Bo Knows, but the last time I looked, the idea for the pitcher is to keep the hitter off the bases and keep the other team from scoring runs.
I think the OPS going from .584 in the first half to .688 in the second half of last year and the ERA going from 3.03 to 5.12 suggests a huge decline in his ability to do either, however you spin the other stats along with the other statheads.
Given Pineda’s lack of velocity all Spring even before the alleged injury, I think it’s worth reconsidering the sophisticated analytics and getting back to the basics.
You’re right, Bo Knows.
And in the second half, he wore the same number of socks, ate the same portions at lunch, came to the park at the same time, and scratched his privates the same number of times.
But hitters slugged .391 in the second half versus .315 in the first half (a 24% diffference) and opposing teams scored 69% more earned runs. I’m not a statistician, Bo Knows. But I think that’s statistically significant in a big, big, big, big, big, big, big way to anyone not thinking themselves into a mental pretzel with advanced sabermetrics.
If the combination of those statistics and the fact that Pineda never reached the velocity he did in the second half don’t suggest that it’s at the very least a distinct possibility that an injury was in the process of happening/getting worse, then I suspect nothing I or anyone else can say will ever persuade you.
but, but, but, his FIP!!! xFIP!!! Percentage of this to that. Thats all that matters.
Exactly, the Other Steve S. Exactly.
GB’s turn to more hits that’s the trade off, people on this very site were bitching about his flyball tendencies. In events that Pineda can actually control, he was great. ERA, and even what are charged as hits, as we’ve seen this year, are heavily dependent on what the fielders do. The Mariners defense was just plain bad last year, especially by their standards because they are usually a good bet on D.
That’s all too sophisticated for me, Bo Knows.
But didn’t Pineda have basically the same plain bad defense behind him the second half that he did in the first half when batters had an OPS that was more than 100 points lower and when he gave up more than two fewer earned runs per nine innings?
No, of course not. The Mariner’s completely replaced every defensive player with shitty ones whenever Pineda pitched in the second half.
That list you posted up proves one thing. Cashman really has no clue how to evaluate pitching. All he knows how to do is break out the checkbook.
Great job, Rockdog. That list of trades really puts into perspective just how bad our track record of trades for pitchers has been. It’s obviously been INCREDIBLY bad.
“…perhaps the Yank have just been really unlucky, but when the outcome is consistently bad, it does make you wonder if there is something wrong with the process.”
THIS!
On Pineda:
According to a study done in 2008 of 42 major league pitchers that underwent shoulder labrum repair surgery, 69% were able to pitch for at least another year in the majors, while only 29% were able to pitch for 3+ additional years. The study also concluded that there was no significant differences in the pitcher’s ERA or WHIP pre- and post-surgery, however their IP did decline significantly.
So, fingers crossed, really hoping for some good luck here.
Interesting. I would guess, though, that if you look at those 42 pitchers, many got the surgery in mid-career or even late career. So the length of time they pitched afterwards may be attributable to just their normal career trajectory, not anything to do with the surgery. It would be interesting to look case by case and see. Also, a torn labrum is not a torn labrum…..it can be a tiny, focal tear, or lots of fraying and detachment. Same way not every broken bone is as serious as every other.
We need to remain cautiously optimistic.
There is a big variation in the degree of injury that can be labeled “torn labrum.” Also, the big thing about a study like this is that they don’t tell us the ages of the players at the time of their surgery. If a guy gets labrum surgery at 36, it’s not unusual that he’d only pitch 1 or 2 more years, since he was near the end of his career anyway. All indications are that he will do fine….hopefully we will get some information from the surgeons as to how bad it looked when they were in there. MRI can only tell you so much.
On the bright side, Kei Igawa is back in Japan.
And to think we could have traded him for Yu Darvish a few years back. Damn that Cashman.
If you’re into torn labrum articles here is Curt Schilling writing about his (complete with photos)
http://38pitches.wordpress.com.....us-photos/
wow, everybody who blames Cashman has to be very … not smart. We needed a pitcher and traded a player without a position. You wanna blame Cashman that he can’t tell you when players get injured in the future? Wow, just wow. Sometimes it’s really a big shame to be part of this fanbase. Please go away and join the Red Sox, they need people like you.
Um, if we needed pitching so badly why trade our biggest commodity for a pitcher with an unproven track record and past health concerns? Wow is right. Get your head out the sand.
Probably nobody is reading anymore, but I’ll post anyway:
This is the cost of doing business, it’s the inherent risk in baseball. We all know there is no sure thing. Pitching _is_ injury; the guys who last and have long careers are freaks. You are taking a chance with any pitcher you get. And there are alot of young stud hitting prospects who never quite make it, or flame out quickly, or get hurt themselves.
So in my opinion, it is wrong to single out Cashman or anyone else in the Yankee organization for making a foolish trade. There is always uncertainty, and every deal involving young players is a gamble. The fact that Pineda got injured is just one of those things.
That said, from the beginning, I have said that if we are going to roll the dice on one of these players, my choice would have been to keep Montero. Baseball is changing now, away from a period of heavy hitting and homers (1990s/2000s) back toward a period where pitching is getting better. Five years from now (if not now already), I believe it will be much easier to find decent, effective pitchers than it was 10 years ago.
In the late 90s/early 00s, finding productive hitters was easier, and finding pitchers was hard. The teams which found the good pitchers won the championships.
In the next decade, since pitching will be easier to come by, the teams who find and accumulate a couple of great hitters will be the ones separating themselves.
So I would have taken my chances with Montero.
We’ll see what happens. A small, discrete labral tear is not necessarily the end of a career. Minimally invasive surgery….with the right rehab, there is no reason he won’t be able to throw 94 consistently again. There is no guarantee that he will, of course, but we’ll just have to see what happens. He’s very young, and they caught it early, so we’ll hope for the best.
Totally stinks about Pineda, but not the end of the world. Sure, we won’t have him this year, but overreacting and killing Cashman this early in the process is a little crazy. Would it be all that different if Pindeda pitched 5 games and then tore it? Or if he went a la Stephen Strasburg, starts 12 games and then needs Tommy John?
I’m all about prepping my pitchfork, but I’m not ready to light it for at least another 2 years.
thank you very much assman,you asshole. you will never man up and admit you were at least a little bit suspious on the health of pineda. if the boss were still running the show, you would have been fired. it’s just a damn shame hal and hank don’t know anything about baseball. they know as much about baseball as you do about pitching and that is nothing.
Bravo. Well done, you.